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- [00:00]
Podcast Announcer
This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human
- [00:04]
Amazon Health AI Advertiser
Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts why
- [00:10]
Cold Sore Narrator
did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.
- [00:27]
Amazon Health AI Advertiser
Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.
- [00:35]
Kohler Ambassador
When Kohler, global design leader in luxurious kitchen and bath products, asked me to be their ambassador for timeless, elegant, durable cast iron, I said, I'm in. Soon after, I was in their Kohler Wisconsin foundry watching molten iron, poured enamel applied by hand, and the beautiful finished pieces ready to ship. Since 1883, Kohler cast iron has been crafted by incredible artisans, and seeing it firsthand gave me a whole new appreciation for their craftsmanship. Now I'm proud to lend my stamp of approval to my favorite Kohler cast iron products for their durability, beauty and enduring style. Shop my curated picks@kohler.com as the Kohler Cast Iron Ambassador, I say long live Cast iron.
- [01:26]
Dr. Laurie Santos
This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. This weekend I'm having friends over for a dinner party and I'll be serving my famous white bean escarole chicken sausage. And of course, I'll be using Dietz and Watson Italian Chicken sausage. Their sausage is always perfect for guests because it has no nitrites added, it's gluten free, and it's just delicious. Visit dietzandwatson.com the right way to learn more about the Dietz difference.
- [01:54]
Kel Penn
Hey everyone, it's Kel Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast Hearsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:23]
Karen Palmer
Family Secrets is a production of iHeartradio. Once Upon a time, I disappeared. I was one person one day and the next, someone else, both the same woman I'd always been and also utterly, eerily unfamiliar. There was a story in this, I felt, one built around a universal how do you know who you are? Answers would be grounded in the body and bound to memory. But for many years I could not write it. I couldn't figure out where to begin, and I had no ending. Moreover, Trauma had scrambled my understanding, the need to make meaning. Stymied by an inability to see, I was unable to sink beneath the surface of events, down to the truth of who had done what and why.
- [03:15]
Dani Shapiro
That's Karen Palmer, author of several novels and the memoir She's Under Here. Karen's is a harrowing story of a vulnerable young woman who finds herself in the wrong place at the wrong time, in the wrong circumstances, without the tools or experience to recognize the danger she's in until finally she does. It's also a story of extraordinary resilience and the power of love to transcend seemingly impossible odds. I'm Dani Shapiro, and this is Family Secrets. The secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves.
- [04:15]
Karen Palmer
I am an adopted only child, and my parents were transplanted New Yorkers. They were both children of Irish immigrants who moved to New York City probably around the turn of the century. And both my parents grew up during the Depression, and my father went off to World War II. And my mother, who was, I guess about five years younger than him at the time he left the neighborhood in New York. She was still in high school, and he kind of knew her from seeing her around, but he didn't know her, know her. By the time he got back after the war, she was all grown up, and she had a job as a secretary down on Wall Street. And she caught his eye as a returning serviceman. He was still wearing his uniform, going out drinking, you know, with his friends. And my mother used to tell this story that when she first saw him, she was very disdainful. You know, she called him, oh, those flyboys, you know, that they were showing off in their uniforms. And she was at the time engaged to marry a Navy guy. And within two weeks of having met my father, she broke off her engagement and was wildly in love with this man that she thought was not for her on first sight. My mom was the youngest of seven children, and my grandmother raised all the kids on her own because her husband had run off with another woman in the middle of the Depression. So, you know, these kids lived in Hell's Kitchen in, you know, in a. In a small apartment, all seven of them. The boy that was just above her in age died when he was seven years old. He fell down an elevator shaft in the building. And so there was, you know, there was a certain amount of that kind of Irish, tragic aura to her family, whereas my father's family was more what they used to call lace curtain Irish. So they, you know, my Mother would have put it that his family put on heirs. There were only three children in his family, which was quite unusual for that era to only have three. So they had. They had different kinds of upbringings. And after the war, my dad was very ill. Towards the end, he came down with something that they thought was Hodgkin's lymphoma. And Walter Reed gave him these massive doses of radiation to treat it. When it turned out that wasn't what he had, but it had the side effect of making him sterile, which they didn't know for many years. You know, in those days, they didn't put the lead apron over you, they just, you know, blasted you. So they tried for 10 years to have a baby and couldn't. And then they adopted me. So. So I was brought into this situation where my dad, who was a fairly serious alcoholic, cleaned up his act for a couple of years while they were adopting me, you know, because they had social workers come around and interview them and all that. My mom was very hopeful that the marriage, which had gotten Rocky over those 10 years, would get back on track. And he cleaned up for the adoption. But as soon as it was all over, he was a heavy drinker again. He was a binge drinker. So you never knew when he was going to go off. He would be fine. And then all of a sudden he'd be holed up in the bedroom, you know, with bottles of whiskey and wouldn't come out for two weeks. And the situation in the house was tense and there was a lot of fighting. And my mother was extremely religious and wouldn't have gotten a divorce because she believed, you know, you get married, you make the vow, you're in it for life. But she was extremely unhappy in the marriage. So she put a lot of her attention on me as her child and the only one in the house that she could talk to because she and my father had really a very bad marriage.
- [08:33]
Interviewer
And you were in LA by that time, right? Your parents had moved west?
- [08:37]
Karen Palmer
Yeah, my parents moved west right after the war. And then 10 years later, they adopted me. They were the only ones in their families to move. Everybody else stayed back east. Everyone. And my dad wanted to be a newspaper man. He had a brother in law who worked for the Washington Post. And he admired this brother in law so much that he thought that what he wanted to do after he got out of the service was work for a newspaper. So he faked his graduation from high school for his mother's sake so that he could walk, you know, in the Auditorium, up on the stage and pretend to get his diploma when he did not in fact graduate because he had ditched so much school as a youngster. But when he got out of the army, he went on the GI Bill to Columbia for a year and studied journalism. And rather than go all the way through a degree program, he was very impatient. And he thought the best way to get a job on a newspaper was, would be to first work for a small town paper, which after my parents got married, they lived for a year in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And he got a job working on their newspaper. And then from there they moved to Los Angeles. And he went through this series of maneuvers, you know, with phony clips and, you know, all this stuff, in order to get a job at what was then called the Herald Express, which was kind of a slightly yellow newspaper, very sensationalist. And that was his first newspaper job.
- [10:16]
Dani Shapiro
Karen grows up on a steep hill in Silver Lake, Los Angeles. As an only child in a neighborhood without many other kids, she learns early how to keep herself company, building elaborate inner worlds to fill the quiet. Her mother's attention is intense, consuming. Her father's is almost non existent. Karen lives in the space between too much and not enough. And then at 15, everything shifts. She becomes pregnant. In her Catholic family during that era, there is no debate about what will happen. She'll carry the baby and the baby will be placed for adoption. And so forms a certain symmetry.
- [11:02]
Karen Palmer
She was very volatile during that time. On the one hand, she was supportive in her way, given that there was only one outcome for this, but she was, you know, she early on took me to the doctor and she was kind, which was very unexpected. I expected her to be furious. But as the pregnancy was progressed, she became obsessed with what she termed my lack of remorse. You know, it's like she was looking for something from me that she wasn't seeing. And part of the form that that took was that because I was adopted myself and because the implication of that was that my birth mother had also had sex outside of marriage, you know, so I always felt that she, at that point. It was when she first started to think of me as less her child and maybe more related to the woman who gave me up, it's like she didn't understand me once I became a teenager. We were very close when I was a child, but once the hormones hit and the rebellion and all that normal teenage stuff, she was beside herself and wanted desperately to control me and I wasn't having it. And so she didn't know what to do.
- [12:30]
Interviewer
Yeah, that makes so much sense. And then you're sent to this institution called St. Anne's where you're going to have the baby. Do you know at that time that you were also adopted from St. Anne's did you know that that's where you started out your life?
- [12:51]
Karen Palmer
Yes, yes, I did know. One thing my parents did about my adoption is I don't ever remember not knowing. So they must have told me really early on. And I was raised to feel that I had been chosen and that it wasn't that somebody didn't want me. It's that my adoptive parents wanted a child so badly that they, you know, they went and picked me out of all these other children. And that was kind of the fairy tale that they constructed for me. I knew I had been born in St. Ann's because it was not far from our house. And I think my mother must have talked about it so that when I got pregnant, it was, you know, rather than look for some home for unwed mothers that was at a distance which, God, I've never thought about this before. That might have made more sense. She just picked this place where I had myself been born. They had a hospital ward in this facility. So it wasn't just dorm rooms and a place to live. While you were waiting out your pregnancy, you also gave birth on the premises.
- [14:08]
Dani Shapiro
Karen gives birth to a son when she's just 16. She holds him for only an hour, an hour that feels both infinite and unbearably brief. The decision to relinquish him has already been made. A nurse reassures her that it'll be fine. She'll have other children, the nurse tells her. Karen receives one Polaroid snapshot of her child, the only trace of him once the door closes. In the meantime, unbeknownst to her, another loss is looming. Her father has cancer, information that's been kept from her until after she returns home. When he dies soon after his illness is revealed to her, she is suddenly a teenager, carrying two profound absences at once. And all before finishing high school, Karen takes a part time job at an office supply company. She's 17. Her boss, Gil, is 36. Here with Gil, her vulnerability becomes a kind of magnet. She is raw from all she's endured. Grief, secrecy, shame. And Gil steps into that space. There is an intoxicating whirl of attention and attraction, a heady combination that distracts Karen from a sense that something might be amiss. And in those early days, what happens between them begins to shape the rest of her life.
- [15:39]
Karen Palmer
I was drawn to him initially, because after the experience I had with the pregnancy and giving up my son, I could no longer deal with. With teenage boys. It's like they were a completely different species to me now. And he was older and he had a business, and he was so interested in me, you know, it's like he wanted to know what I had to say. And I was so grieving. Something that I have thought since is that I mistook grief for maturity. You know, I thought I was a way more mature person than I was because I had had this hard experience. And so I didn't see the age difference clearly. When I look back on what he was doing now, it seems very clear that it was grooming. I would not have had the language for that at the time, at all. And then also it was the 70s, and you had Roman Polanski and you had Jack Nicholson, and you had all these, you know, semi famous men running around with teenagers, and nobody thought anything of it. So there was also this atmosphere of anything goes and a level of promiscuity that disappeared once the AIDS crisis hit. So this was just ahead of that. And again, I had been through this experience, and I thought I was perfectly prepared to step into a life with someone this much older than me.
- [17:25]
Interviewer
So how long before you marry him?
- [17:28]
Karen Palmer
Well, we lived together for, I think, six years. So it's like we were married, but we didn't actually do the ceremony until I was 22.
- [17:42]
Dani Shapiro
And how did your parents feel about it? Your mom?
- [17:45]
Interviewer
Because your dad had passed away?
- [17:46]
Karen Palmer
Yeah, I think my mom. See, this is sort of a terrible thing to say about her, but I think my mom, who never really liked him that much, she, you know, she recognized him. He was also a New Yorker. He had moved from New York to California after being in the service. And I think she felt like she had his number, but he was older. She thought he would take care of me. And she also thought that he would understand this experience I'd gone through and not think of me as spoiled goods, you know, because I think that's the way her mind ran. Is she. You know, some part of her was like, well, no man is ever going to want her. Look what she did. And so she. She swallowed it, even though she was wary.
- [18:40]
Dani Shapiro
But Karen doesn't feel like spoiled goods. Not at all. For starters, she feels very mature and also does not believe her teenage pregnancy to be a disqualifying thing. Besides, Gil is intoxicating, sexy. He also tells her that he'll take care of her always, that he'll Be there for her, not no matter what, that as long as she's with him, she'll be safe. There are red flags waving all over the place, but she's a teenager and she doesn't see them.
- [19:12]
Karen Palmer
There's a word I ran across when I was working on the project that it's like the frog, the boiling frog metaphor, but to me it's more specific. It's called mithradatism, which is the process of ingesting self administering small amounts of poison so that when you get the full dose, it won't affect you. I feel like I participated in some of the things that I saw in him that should have been huge red flags, like, you know, this sort of petty criminality and, you know, selling stolen goods and having multiple identification. And I thought, oh, this just makes him interesting. He's kind of an outlaw. And I went from seeing him that way to. As I got older and I had children and I grew up then it became clearer and clearer to me that he was actually a very dangerous person. And I spent 14 years learning that lesson. So it was a long time.
- [20:27]
Dani Shapiro
Karen and Gil are seven years into their relationship when their daughter Erin is born. Erin is followed four and a half years later by another daughter, Amy. Gil already has kids from his first marriage and Karen sees him as a loving and involved father, a huge draw given her own father's emotional absence. So she ignores a lot of things. There's the fact that he denies owning a gun, a lie. There is physical violence. Gil is regularly unfaithful, and Karen is diagnosed with numerous venereal diseases. Even as Gil gaslights her, telling her she must have picked them up on toilet seats. But then he goes too far. He locks her in a broom closet.
- [21:18]
Karen Palmer
It was a breaking point because that particular incident actually happened during a phase in which things were pretty good between us. You know, he had gotten a new job and he was doing well in the job and the kids were at a really fun age. And, you know, it was cyclical. Things would be good and then they'd be bad and good and then bad, but they were good. We were living in Marin county and we were due to go into San Francisco that day with the girls just to spend the day in the city. And they were out in the car. I was getting some stuff ready in the house to bring in the car and he came back in and shoved me in the broom closet and, and locked it and left. I cannot remember that it was precipitated by something. Perhaps it was, but I really think it was just casual cruelty. You know, he was annoyed for some reason that I wasn't aware of. You know, he was always telling me things like, get your head out of your ass. You know, you're being dumb, you're stupid, you know, all those kinds of criticisms. And so he, for whatever reason, did this and then left me in there for several hours. And I had a lot of time to think when I was in there. You know, I was a young mom, I had these two young kids. I had a job, I went to school. I never had any time to myself. And I had some time to myself in this closet. And by the end of my time, there would occur to me, because I couldn't think of a precipitating event was that he didn't love me. You know, I thought, oh, this is a revelation. He doesn't love me. But the more important thing that I came to after that event was that I realized I didn't love him anymore. And that's what changed everything, was my falling out of love with him.
- [23:23]
Dani Shapiro
Another important revelation is soon forthcoming when Karen and her family take a trip to LA and stay with their friends. Vinnie and his wife.
- [23:32]
Karen Palmer
We had been friends for such a long time, and because we knew each other while we were involved with other, we never thought of each other. As for us, I thought he was wonderful. I thought he was interesting. I thought he was very sad, sexy guy, very smart. I never thought of him as someone for me, and I don't think he necessarily thought of me as someone for him. Like, I used to joke around with him that of all my husband's friends, he's the only one that never made a pass at me. So we didn't see each other that way. And then on this trip, I don't remember for sure what was going on with him and his wife. Things weren't good between them. He was really unhappy, and I was really unhappy. And we took this walk in the middle of the night because we were making too much noise talking, and we were told, you know, shh, or get out and go talk somewhere else. So we did. And at some point over the course of this walk, we just kind of looked at each other, and it was like, oh, you. You know, we had no idea. And it was really just like. It was the thunderbolt.
- [24:46]
Interviewer
And after that thunderbolt, fairly quickly, you're both resolved that you have to be together and you both end your marriages. And this is when Gil, who already was such a dangerous human, this is when he sort of kicks into high gear. Yeah, and it seems like he's willing to let you go, but he is definitely not willing to let you go with Vinny.
- [25:20]
Karen Palmer
Right. Although I sometimes if I think about this, it was worse because it was Vinnie. But I think it wouldn't have mattered. As soon as there was somebody else in the picture, he would not have tolerated it. It was a thousand times worse because it was a friend of his. So that had the effect of accelerating every awful thing he did in his effort to get me to do what he wanted me to do.
- [25:51]
Interviewer
So there's this night that you're on
- [25:54]
Dani Shapiro
the phone with Vinnie and you're making
- [25:56]
Interviewer
plans and you think that you're in a safe space to be talking to him and that it becomes clear that Gil has been lurking right there. And, you know, it's this very sort of chilling moment. There are so many places where it feels like this could just be it right here. And, you know, he's kind of like, you hang up and he's muttering like, what to do, what to do, what should I do? And you ask him, what are you thinking? And he says, snakes and filth, baby. Snakes and filth. What did that mean to you?
- [26:33]
Karen Palmer
I think what it meant to me is that what went on in his head was so much worse than anything I could have imagined. It wasn't just him lying there. He was lying on the floor with his head partly into the room and the room was dark, so I didn't see him. So he had been lying there listening. And I thought it was okay to talk because he had gotten very drunk and passed out, so I assumed he was asleep. And it's not like he could have said to me, you know, you did this terrible thing to me, or you're betraying me, or it wasn't, I'm hurt. You know, we're married and you're my wife and we have children and I'm hurt to discover that you're doing this. It was. You're going to pay. The stuff that's running through my head is all about how you are going to pay.
- [27:39]
Dani Shapiro
We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets.
- [27:45]
Amazon Health AI Advertiser
Amazon Health AI presents Painful thoughts.
- [27:50]
Cold Sore Narrator
Why did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic source in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.
- [28:08]
Amazon Health AI Advertiser
Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.
- [28:15]
Dr. Laurie Santos
This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Research shows that happiness is all about social connection and oftentimes that social connection involves great food. I love hosting my friends for brunch or dinner and sharing some of my favorite dishes with the people I care about. And that's why I choose Dietz and Watson. Dietz Watson has been handcrafting premium meats and artisan cheeses for over 85 years. Dietz Watson is family owned and operated. They never cut corners. Ever. They do things the right way, even if it's the hard way. Plus, Dietz and Watson is transparent about what goes into their food and what doesn't and that quality translates into great taste. Visit dietzandwatson.com therightway to learn more about the Dietz difference.
- [29:02]
Podcast Announcer
Garnier is proudly partnering with the National park foundation, the official nonprofit partner of the National Park Service. Garnier's support of the National Park Foundation's Service Corps program is enabling young adults and veterans to help care for and enhance the national parks that we all love. The National park foundation and Garnier are proud to support these individuals as they explore future careers, gain practical field skills, develop confidence as leaders, and help address priority projects. The across across our national parks. Together, Garnier and the National park foundation are committed to a shared vision of preserving and protecting our most treasured places for future generations. Want to lend a hand? Explore Garnier's partnership with the National park foundation and learn how you can help support our national parks@garnier.usa.com NPF thank you
- [29:47]
Bombas Advertiser
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- [30:26]
Dani Shapiro
Karen does what she has to do. She gets her daughters and goes drives hours and hours away to Carlsbad, where her mother is now living in a mobile home park. It's a kind of practice run, a rehearsal for leaving Gill for good. When they arrive, her mother's reaction is blunt, almost dismissive. Why are you leaving him? Is it the drinking? Karen tells her the truth, that she's in love with someone else. Her mother scoffs. Love, she says. Grow up A woman disappointed by love too many times has little patience for her daughter's hope. While Karen is hiding out, Gil tracks her down. She hopes their conversations will be reasonable, but reasonable they are not. He wants her to come home. And in truth, Karen wants to come home too. Her older daughter, Erin, has school routines, a life Erin doesn't want to disrupt. Gil promises he won't be there, that he'll clear out so that she and the girls can return safely. So she drives back, bracing herself. And what she finds when she walks through the door will mark yet another inflection point.
- [31:42]
Karen Palmer
We left in the late afternoon and got home probably around midnight. So the kids were very sleepy. And we came into the apartment. The apartment was dark. And it had, you know, that feeling even when you can't see the feeling of an empty house or an empty apartment. It's like I could feel that he wasn't there, but there was this very faint smell of fire. And I thought, well, you know, I don't know. We had a fireplace, so he had a fire, but he's not here. So I put the kids to bed. And I was putting toys away, but my gaze falls upon this row of pictures that we had on the wall over the kids toy box. And like, there's something wrong with the way the pictures look to me. So I got up and went over to them and looked at them and they seemed normal until I realized that in one of the frames, you know, the matting is there, but the photograph is gone. And I couldn't for the life of me remember what the photograph was. And then the next one, which was a picture from our wedding, his head has been cut out of the picture. So it was on the steps of the church and the wedding party standing there, and I'm standing beside him and all the, you know, the grooms are on one side and bridesmaids are on the other. And he's taken this big chunk out of the photograph. What it made me think then is, oh, my God, what has he done to the photographs? So I ran into the kitchen. We had this cabinet where we kept all our, you know, photo albums and paperwork, you know, all the stuff that we. That we owned, the lease and the birth certificates and all that kind of stuff. And I pulled out the box where we kept the recent snapshots of the girls. And they seemed to be fine, like the pictures. I was worried that he had done something to the pictures of the girls and that I would have lost the. And they seemed to be fine. But as I was shuffling through them, I saw that there were more of these photos of him with his head cut out. And it took some looking at them to finally realize that he'd only done that in the photos where he was with me. You know, there were other photos of him with the kids or with friends or his family or whatever. And there he is, and the photograph is intact. But in these photographs where we're in it together, he's cut his head out. And I got scared. So I pulled out my mother's photo albums. When she retired to this mobile home park, she gave me all the family photo albums because I think she was trying to ease the emotional clutter. You know, she was starting a new phase of her life, and she was not a big one for dwelling on the past. And she knew I loved all that stuff. Like, I loved the family photo albums. So I open up, like, my baby book, you know, where my mom had all my pictures, and they were all gone. Everything in it was gone. All of it. And then I pulled out other albums, you know, that my mom had from her family in New York. Everybody gone. Everybody. Whatever pictures we had of my dad, all gone. So he had gone through. And again, because of the smell of fire, I assumed that he had burned all this stuff. And that is, in fact, what he did.
- [35:28]
Interviewer
You know, it's striking me that the psychological warfare of that is particularly. I mean, it would be awful for anyone, but it's particularly awful for an adoptee. It's like you've had your adoptive family, all proof of it, ripped out from underneath you, having also, as an adoptee, never known anything about your birth family.
- [35:52]
Karen Palmer
Right, right. It was an erasure. You know, it's like he was trying to erase me.
- [35:59]
Dani Shapiro
But Gil takes the erasure further when Karen opens her lockbox further, for which Gil knows the combination. She opens the envelope where she's kept the single existing Polaroid of her newborn son, and it's gone. The envelope is empty. Gil has burned it.
- [36:21]
Karen Palmer
After finding all these. This discovery that he'd burned everything, I did finally go to bed and slept for a couple of hours. And then I got up and started making breakfast for the girls. And I was carrying the pot of water over to the stove to boil it for oatmeal. And in between the burners, there was a single bullet sitting there between the burners. So that was this message that he had left for me to find.
- [36:54]
Interviewer
So you proceed to hide further. You and Vinny, you go away from there with the girls?
- [37:02]
Karen Palmer
Yeah, 90 miles south. 90 miles is how far you can go without having to petition the court. Right.
- [37:08]
Interviewer
So you go right to the edge.
- [37:10]
Karen Palmer
Yeah.
- [37:10]
Interviewer
And you sign a lease on an apartment there. Gil doesn't know where you are. And then again, there's one of these moments where it seems like maybe a reasonable conversation can be had. I mean, tell me about that.
- [37:24]
Karen Palmer
Well, Vinnie was just there initially to help me move in. He still had his business down in Los Angeles and was living there. And we were trying to figure out how we could live together without making the situation worse. So we were willing to wait on moving in with each other until, you know, until it settled down a little bit. So I do finally talk to Gil, and he says he wants to meet me at a restaurant halfway between Santa Cruz and our apartment in Marin. And he has some stuff he wants to give me, and he just wants to talk. And it felt to me like, okay, he gets it now. He gets it now. I've left. I've left. I've moved, you know, this 90 miles. And I would have never gone so far if he hadn't been so threatening, you know, because the idea was that he wouldn't be able to just get in the car and come down, you know, that he'd have to make arrangements to come down because it's too long a drive otherwise. So I thought, well, okay, I'll go talk to him. And I do remember Vinnie didn't want me to do it. He's like, don't do it. And I'm like, no. You'd think after all these years, I'd know better. But as you say, it looks like a moment where maybe it can break the other way. So I got there first, and I was waiting for him, and he finally drives in in some strange car that I don't know. And he gets out of the car and he's all banged up. He's clearly been in some kind of accident or gotten in a terrible fight or something. And over the course of this conversation, which seems like, okay, he's got stuff in the car, some kitchen goods that he's going to give me, and he's trying very hard to get me to tell him where we are. I wouldn't give him the exact address. I wanted to settle in. I wanted to have a couple of weeks free of being hounded before I let him know where we were. And he made me feel so bad about keeping that secret and seemed so contrite that against all my better instincts, I told him. And the instant I told him, then he told me that he would throw me in the back of his car and drive me out to the desert and bury me where no one would ever find me. So I learned nothing.
- [40:03]
Dani Shapiro
So Gil now knows where Karen, Vinnie, Erin, and Amy are. Shortly after the encounter in the parking lot, Gil leaves a bunch of dynamite twined together in Vinnie's truck with a lit cigar in the center, presumably so that when the cigar burned down far enough, the truck would explode. The cigar burned out before it could detonate the bundle of dynamite. But if it had, the truck was parked right underneath the bedroom window where her girls were sleeping. It was a lot of dynamite. When the police came, they told Karen that it was enough to blow the building sky high. But the police did nothing. There was seemingly nothing they could do. There was no proof it was Gil. And they didn't like to get involved in domestic conflicts.
- [40:55]
Karen Palmer
It was very frustrating because we couldn't really get any help out of them. And I didn't have any proof because even though I was in this abusive marriage, I had never gone to a shelter. I had never talked to a psychologist. I never knew anyone that had been abused, which is probably incorrect, but no one ever told me. So I never knew anyone that was abused. So I didn't what I was dealing with early on. And then when I finally did know what I was dealing with, they either didn't take it seriously or couldn't do anything.
- [41:30]
Dani Shapiro
And something else is on the horizon, too. Something incredibly dangerous, frightening, and malevolent. Something that perhaps, had Karen's mom been able to grasp just how bad it was between the two of them, how high the stakes could have been avoided.
- [41:48]
Karen Palmer
I had sent our older girl, Erin, down to see my mom for a week after school let out. We had lived in Santa Cruz for about a year then, and she went down there for a vacation. And I stayed up in Santa Cruz with Amy. And Vinnie had work to do, and he couldn't come up. So I was there alone. So she was down there. She had a great time with Mom. You know, they did all the beach things and went shopping, and they had a lovely time. And then my mom calls me to tell me that Gil is there and that he wants to go back on the airplane with Aaron and what should she do? And I was sort of flabbergasted, like, what is he doing there? How does he even know she's there? And what does he mean he wants to come back? And she says, well, he says he has to get back to San Francisco. He's got some business stuff he's got to do. And he wants to spend time with Aaron on the plane. So I thought, well, okay, will you be sure to put them on the plane? Like, see them on. Because he had been making noises that he was going to take the girls, and I just didn't think he would do it because I didn't know what on earth he would do with them. He wasn't working at that point, and he. He was doing a lot of drugs and drinking, and he was such a mess. And I thought it was a threat and not something that he would actually do. So they got on the plane, and it turned out my mom did not see them onto the plane. And I found out later that he had tried to take Aaron on another flight that went to New York. And the only reason he didn't get on that flight was because she could read and she made a stink. And so they went. This is when you could buy a ticket at the gate. There was no security, there was no nothing. You just walked up to the gate and purchased your fare. So they went to San Francisco, and I met them with Amy at the airport. It was very late, and she was, you know, half asleep and very heavy in my arms. And they came. Came off the plane, and I needed to hug Aaron. And Amy was squirming. She wanted down, and he was holding his arms out, and so I gave her to him to hold. And it was just so instinctual. I mean, I spent 14 years with this man, and he was their father. And I passed her over. And then we started walking to baggage claim. And again, at some point, Erin was behaving strangely, and I bent down to talk to her, and when I stood back up, Gil and Amy were gone. And what they had actually done is walked straight through the airport and out and got on a bus. But I didn't know that. I spent hours and hours trying to find them in the airport.
- [44:48]
Interviewer
And at this time, Amy's and Erin's seven.
- [44:53]
Karen Palmer
Yeah. I think Amy was two and a half and Erin was seven. Yeah.
- [44:58]
Interviewer
This then proceeds to unfold over a period of 10 days where you don't know where Amy is and Gil has her.
- [45:08]
Karen Palmer
Yes. I mean, we looked everywhere for her. We did flyers, we went to police stations, we checked with bus stations and did what we could do, and nobody could really help. I mean, the airport wouldn't even let us put the flyers up. They said they would distribute them to their security people and they would keep an eye out, but it was not very helpful.
- [45:30]
Interviewer
There's this eerie moment right where, I mean, it's all Eerie. But there's this moment where you do get the police get a tip that there is a man living in a building with a child and something doesn't seem right. But then the tip doesn't pan out because the child is a boy.
- [45:49]
Karen Palmer
Right.
- [45:50]
Interviewer
Except that's not what happened.
- [45:53]
Karen Palmer
No. And if I had known. I still don't think it was them, because I think by that time he had already left the city. He couldn't afford to stay in the city anymore. He went north and stayed. It was up in Santa Rosa, which is a town maybe an hour and a half north of San Francisco. Yeah, but this idea that, oh, it's a boy, it couldn't be her, turned out to be sort of a red herring because he had changed her appearance to make her look like a boy.
- [46:19]
Interviewer
He dyed her hair and cut it short. Yeah. So after 10 days, he does get in touch.
- [46:28]
Karen Palmer
Right.
- [46:29]
Interviewer
But what he wants in exchange for returning Amy to you is that you promise to give up Vinny. That's the only. The only way that you're getting your daughter back is if you promise, you swear that you are going to give up Vinny.
- [46:46]
Karen Palmer
Yes. Which, of course, I did. Instantly. I swore that I was not telling the truth, but I swore it instantly.
- [46:57]
Dani Shapiro
This is the moment when everything breaks open. After the terror of not knowing where her youngest daughter is or what Gil might have done, Karen returns home and turns to Vinnie with a single urgent sentence. We've got to run. They had talked about the possibility before in the abstract what they would do if things didn't get better. But this is different. This is now. The situation has been escalating despite everyone around them continuing to insist that no one can sustain this level of rage forever, that it'll peter out, but it won't. It hasn't. It's only grown. And then comes the threat that makes the decision for her. Gil takes Amy and warns Karen that if he ever breaks her promise to him, he'll take her again or take both girls or kill them all. That's the moment she understands they can't wait, can't plan, hope for a safe window. They have to disappear immediately. What follows is essentially a DIY witness protection effort with no guidance, no support and absolute secrecy. Karen and Vinnie gather what they can, decide to change their names and start driving east.
- [48:17]
Karen Palmer
We went that direction because I was told that, you know, I would never live anywhere except on a coast. I was used to being near an ocean. And so the middle of the country was not ever a place that I contemplated moving to. So I figured somewhere in the interior, it makes sense to go there because he'll look for me first in places like Washington and Oregon and, you know, maybe Florida and North Carolina, places that he could see me living. And so we drove east, and Vinnie, whose sister and her husband had lived in Colorado for a while, had once spent a day in Boulder, and he thought it was a cute town and had a university. And it was, you know, 40 minutes from a big city, so we could probably find jobs. And just on a whim, that's where we wound up deciding while we were driving.
- [49:17]
Interviewer
Yeah, well. And also, there's such a flurry of things that you're deciding things that no one ever thinks about unless they were suddenly in a position of having to think about, which is, well, what does that mean? We don't have any id. Like, what do you do about that? How can you rent a place to live, much less buy a place to live, if you don't have documentation? And so you do end up for a little while in a condo that was empty, that hadn't sold yet. And the landlord, you know, there were these angels along the way, you know.
- [49:47]
Karen Palmer
Yes, definitely.
- [49:48]
Interviewer
People who didn't ask too many questions, but also who, at a certain point, if you did, let them into your. I mean, letting anybody into your circumstances felt like the most dangerous thing imaginable.
- [50:00]
Karen Palmer
It did. Yes.
- [50:02]
Interviewer
So tell me about. I mean, just a little bit about buying the house, because this is, again, like you're relying on the kindness of strangers or the reliability or the trustworthiness of strangers, because at a certain point, you have no choice but to do that.
- [50:16]
Karen Palmer
Well, something we had when we ran is we cashed out our bank accounts and, you know, took what cash we had and put it in a paper sack that we had under the front seat. So we had this small stake of money, and we weren't sure what we would do with it. Would it be enough to buy something in, you know, leaving California, it's like the prices are completely different when you go into the interior. And Colorado was just coming out of a pretty bad recession, and so prices were very depressed. And this realtor that had exchanged painting this condo for rent, I think he looked at us and he thought, well, okay, nice young family. And they, I don't know, they might like a house. I'm going to show them houses. And we would go, because it was kind of a fun fantasy to go look at this stuff. And he would drive us around Boulder and we'd walk around houses, and there was this One house that Vinnie kind of fell in love with, and in a way that it wasn't with the other ones. I could tell he wanted it, and he thought it was doable. And I'm like, no, we can't. We'll never get a loan. We don't have any paperwork. We have nothing. So he said, let's talk to the realtor and tell him enough of our story so that he'll understand why we can't give him a credit report, why we don't have any work history. And the realtor was like, well, this house has been on the market for a really long time, and I think maybe the owner can be talked into carrying the note on it rather than having to go through a bank. And he thought it was probably a decent deal for her because if it turned out that we defaulted, then she would just keep our down payment and put it up for sale again. It was not the worst thing in the world. Although, you know, she wanted to sell it, and I'm sure she wanted a regular sale, so she agreed to that. And then she demanded a credit report, and we couldn't do it, so we wouldn't tell anybody our real names. We never did. All the years we lived in hiding, we never said our real names to
- [52:30]
Interviewer
anybody, including to each other.
- [52:32]
Karen Palmer
Oh, well, to each other, yes. I mean. And we fiddled with our identification stuff so that. The name I was born with is Carrie, the first name. And I'm Karen now, because I wanted to change it to something that was close and that if I could, you know, was signing something, if I screwed up, I could kind of COVID it up.
- [52:51]
Interviewer
Up.
- [52:52]
Karen Palmer
So I picked the name that way. And then we told people that Carrie was a nickname, so, you know, so Vinnie would call me Carrie, other people called me Karen, but it was not, you know, that way we could still be who we were. Anyway, this lady, the realtor, said, let's. Let's call her up and put her on speakerphone and you can give her a shortened version of what you told me, and maybe she'll take mercy on you. And so we did that, and Vinnie did all the talking because I was a wreck. And at the end of it, he said to her, well, this is the situation. We cannot give you our real names, and we can't show you this stuff. This is what it is. And we understand if you want to pass and don't want to do it. And it's a small world. You can't even tell anybody the story we've told you. And she was very quiet for this long moment. And then she told us a story about a safari she had been on in Africa. She was an academic and she had been on a safari with a bunch of academics from all over the country. And in the evenings they would sit around this campfire and get drunk and tell stories. And there was a young woman who one night was telling a story about having had an affair with a married man and she was very upset and she was crying. And the woman whose house we wound up buying said she realized as the woman was talking that she was talking about her next door neighbor like she recognized the man in the story. And so she said to us, it is a small world, I understand. And she agreed to carry the note. As you say, another angel.
- [54:38]
Dani Shapiro
We'll be back in a moment with more family Secrets.
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- [57:54]
Dani Shapiro
Karen, Vinnie and the girls live in that house in Boulder for a good long time. They try to build new lives for themselves and for four years there's no sign of Gil. But then Karen hears from her mother. Her mother's house has been broken into and there's only one thing missing, her address book. This is nerve wracking of course, but still Gil stays away. Then Karen's mom gets a call from one of Gil's older daughters. Gil has been arrested for murder and is in prison.
- [58:26]
Karen Palmer
It was a garbled story, you know, which didn't get straightened out for a while on my end because I just thought, oh my God, he finally did it. He finally killed somebody. And I don't know if the garbling was my stepdaughter or if it was my mom. I kind of think it was probably my mom that she got the story wrong. What I eventually found out that he did was he was charged with attempted murder where he had one night he was back living in New York in the apartment he grew up in and there was a bar across the street that was very noisy and apparently at 2:00 clock in the morning he went down there with a gun and started firing into the bar, because he was mad at them, because they were making noise. I mean, the whole thing is just outrageous in my mind. But that's what actually happened. And that was plea bargained down to illegal possession of a weapon. And then he went off to prison for a number of years for that.
- [59:33]
Interviewer
Karen, how and where did it. I mean. Cause now there's a lot of years go by. You begin to publish novels. Your daughters grow up, they go to college, they start lives of their own. And yet what is so palpable is always this sense of haunting. Like, is it ever over? And what would over even mean, you know, you learn that he's back out of prison. Does it continue to feel for you like you're one ring of a doorbell or one knock on the door away from? There he is. He's finally caught up with you.
- [60:16]
Karen Palmer
Yes, I always felt like that. And I felt like that long past when he was probably capable of doing that because it was a black hole. And also I had such unresolved guilt about having taken the girls away. You know, I did the thing that he did to me, and I did it permanently. And so, like, what does it mean to take a man's children away? Even a man as disturbed and dangerous as this? The children are still part of what makes him human. And so I struggled for years with feeling like, should I try to reach out and see if there's a way to have some kind of rapprochement here? Is there a way to resolve this? And of course, I never did it because I was fairly certain, I would say 99.9, 99% certain, that it was just me fantasizing again about the way it could be and not the way it was.
- [61:26]
Dani Shapiro
Karen has begun to have success as a writer. Her first novel is published in 1996, followed by a second novel. But her story, this story continues to haunt her. She decides to fictionalize it, to write it as a novel. The girls are now grown and out of the house, so Karen decides to take herself on a solo writing retreat. While there, the edges blur. Revisiting this time is just too much for her, and she breaks down.
- [61:57]
Karen Palmer
It was unexpected. We decided at a certain point that we were going to sell the house in Boulder and move closer to the ocean and go live in a place that was kind of smaller and quieter even than Boulder and get more for our money. The house in Boulder had appreciated quite a bit, and we thought we could sort of semi retire, which was really totally unrealistic, it turns out. But that's what we Thought. And I was in charge of reconnaissance and went out there and looked around and looked for a house to get and all this stuff. And I was by myself in this place that was very mysterious to me. And trying to write this novel which fictionalized the absolute worst time in my life. And I was trying to disguise elements of it and also be true to it. And I started disappearing. You know, all the stuff that I had been through. I had never had a breakdown. I certainly had very rough times. But I was always pretty sound mentally. And this was the first time in my life where I felt completely unsound. And it was not good. Trying to write about this in that way was definitely a part of it.
- [63:23]
Interviewer
Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. The haunting continues. Right? And you don't write that book, which is great, because then you write this book, which is the book that you needed to write, right?
- [63:36]
Karen Palmer
Yeah, it is.
- [63:37]
Interviewer
But, you know, you kind of. Every once in a while, you look up to see if there's any news of Gill. Is there anything that you can find? Is there any. And there's, you know, usually the same couple of things that aren't useful. You know, just. He's been a person of interest in various places or whatever. But then there is this moment. What year is it when this happens where you're searching for Gil and you learn that Gil is dead?
- [64:05]
Karen Palmer
This was Christmas 2008, where the girls. Amy was in the Navy and Aaron was back east in her first job as a lawyer, and they both came home for Christmas. We were living again in Los Angeles by that point, and we had this, you know, this very nice Christmas dinner, and everybody went out for a walk. And one of the gifts that my older daughter, the new lawyer, had given Vinnie was this book that was a guide to adoption in California. And, like, Vinnie's opening it and looking at it and sort of puzzled. The girls wanted to make it official after all these years. They wanted him to adopt them as adults. So we had this tremendously emotional Christmas, you know, where we were all crying and everybody goes out for a walk except me. And I was thinking, well, I don't know what happens with Gil here. It's like, is there some kind of legal thing that he's the father? Do we have to track him down and get him to sign something? And so he was on my mind. And after everybody went to bed, I decided to Google him, which I did periodically, without any particular information. But on this particular night, I googled him, and I added a search term, which was Santa Maria California. Because I had had a private detective at one point track him as far as Santa Maria. And I didn't know if he was still there or what, but I added that term and up popped this item that was in their little local newspaper there about a body having been found in a park. And that they initially thought it was foul play. They thought that perhaps the person had had been murdered and then determined that they died of natural causes. And in the course of looking at this article and another article and kind of triangulating between them, it was clear to me that it was Gil. So, yeah, so that's how I found out he died.
- [66:23]
Interviewer
What did that. I mean, this is such a huge
- [66:26]
Dani Shapiro
question, but, like, what did that feel like?
- [66:29]
Interviewer
There's probably some complicated German word for all of the different feelings, you know?
- [66:33]
Karen Palmer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was heartbroken because, you know, again, I think I still had this thing in my head that there would be some sort of deathbed reconciliation somewhere along here. And the idea that he was gone forever was overwhelming to me. So there was that, but then there was also, you know, tremendous relief because right up until that moment, I still thought he was capable of finding me and doing great harm.
- [67:11]
Interviewer
So you and Vinny have three grandchildren. Erin has three boys.
- [67:15]
Karen Palmer
Yes.
- [67:16]
Interviewer
You know, you have these daughters who have thrived, and you have this marriage that has endured. Where are you now in, like, just inside yourself in terms of your own sense of your life and peace?
- [67:32]
Karen Palmer
You know, I think actually committing to finishing the book and writing down what happened in as truthful a way as I could. I mean, it's a cliche, but it kind of set me free, you know, where it released my final feelings of. Not the guilt, but that I have come to some sort of peace with this story. You know, I did what I had to do. And I think I write this somewhere also. I would do it again. I did what I termed the only thing I could do, and I would do it again. And putting that in black and white settled the issue for me. It's very weird reliving all this stuff, you know, now that it finally is out in the world. But it settled for me. So I actually feel at peace. And. I don't know. Good is not the right word, but good about it. Yes.
- [68:42]
Dani Shapiro
Here's Karen reading one last passage from her memoir. She's under here.
- [68:51]
Karen Palmer
Vinnie was in the kitchen making sauce. A pot bubbled with tomatoes and garlic. A frying pan sizzled with browning sausages. What happened? He asked. I told him. Was it enough, Carrie? It was. And it wasn't. I didn't know. When will it be enough? I don't know. Never, probably. And Vinnie kissed me. What can I say about love? How can I ever convey a depth of feeling? All I can show you is the warmth of our kitchen filled with fragrant steam. All I can give you is the sound of Vinnie breathing. The rise and fall of his chest against mine, the warmth of his arms. The feeling of utter safety and desire. Desire in the moment and desire in memory. Desire that rushes or meanders or runs underground only to surface when least expected, with force and full Jo.
- [70:02]
Dani Shapiro
Family Secrets is a production of iHeartradio. Molly Zakur is the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. If you have a family secret you'd like to share, please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear on an upcoming episode. Our number is 1-888-SECRET-0. That's the number. Zero. You can also find me on Instagram. Anny Writer and if you'd like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, check out my memoir, Inheritance.
- [70:50]
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Karen Palmer
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Dani Shapiro
listen to your favorite shows.
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hey everyone, it's Kel Penn I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [72:46]
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Karen Palmer
What?
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Karen Palmer
Now I will control an Empire original
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Dani Shapiro
Just make sure we protect each other
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Karen Palmer
Welcome to the history books.
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Karen Palmer
This is an iHeart podcast.
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