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- [00:01]
Adam Azer
Eighteen strangers, different walks of life, different belief systems. But you all have one thing in common.
- [00:07]
Dave Richard
You heard the call of Survivor.
- [00:10]
Jamie Eisenberg
It's knowing that you're living the best day of your life. This is my season. I've never went camping before.
- [00:17]
Adam Azer
I'm gonna get knocked down.
- [00:19]
Dave Richard
It's not gonna be as hard as losing my sister. Challenge yourself. Chase your dreams.
- [00:24]
Jamie Eisenberg
Survivor new season now streaming on Paramount and new episodes CBS Wednesdays. School Spirits is the phenomenon that gripped audiences everywhere.
- [00:35]
Dave Richard
Where is my body?
- [00:36]
Jamie Eisenberg
And in the all new season on.
- [00:38]
Chris Trapasso
Paramount, the girl you saw out in.
- [00:40]
Adam Azer
The world isn't me.
- [00:41]
Dave Richard
Get the answers. Wait, does that mean that you're not dead?
- [00:44]
Chris Trapasso
We are running out of time.
- [00:45]
Dave Richard
Everyone's been dying for. You have no idea what I'm capable of. What other secrets are you keeping? Stream the new season of School Spirits now on Paramount. This is fantasy football today from CBS Sports. What a play.
- [01:05]
Chris Trapasso
Can you believe this?
- [01:07]
Jamie Eisenberg
No, I can't. It's time to dominate your fantasy league. Off to the races and he stays on his feet. This is gonna go the distance.
- [01:15]
Dave Richard
Now here's some combination of Adam, Dave, Jamie and Heath.
- [01:21]
Jamie Eisenberg
NFL Draft Talk. Here it is, Wednesday, April 9th. Welcome everybody. We are talking about one position that looks pretty awesome this year. One position that doesn' Quarterbacks, tight ends. Tight ends looking pretty good. I am Adam Azer with Dave Richard, Jamie Eisenberg and let's welcome back Chris Trepasso. We've already broken down some of these players, but we're gonna do it again. And I know you're excited about this. You just released a seven round mock draft. Seven round mock draft. Please check it out. Just Google Chris Trapasso mock draft. It's the first thing that comes up. But you're excited to get into this and welcome back. We're excited to have you.
- [01:57]
Dave Richard
Hey, yeah. This is a great reprieve from talking only about mock drafts on a lot of radio spots and other interviews that I do because I know that you guys want to dive into these players, specifically their traits, their NFL outlook, things like that. And I like that way more than just repeatedly talking about a mock draft that gets thrown out. And then until the following week when I do another mock draft, that then is the topic of conversation for a few days.
- [02:20]
Jamie Eisenberg
I don't know about you, Jamie, but you know, I spent the last few days watching these tight ends and I mean, I have a fairly strong take about my favorite guy, maybe my top two after that, I mean, I think it's really tough. I rely on guys like Chris to Help me out to sort it out. And then of course, we're going to rely on the NFL draft and what the. What the evaluators say in the landing spots and things like that, but I think it's kind of bunchy, Jamie.
- [02:44]
Chris Trapasso
Yeah, I would agree. And obviously we appreciate Chris coming on to provide some more insight.
- [02:52]
Jamie Eisenberg
There you go. It goes against everything in my body, but Schaefer made me do it. Welcome back, Jamie. And wow, the Gators could have lost five games this tournament. Instead, they're national champions. How was your trip to San Antonio?
- [03:10]
Chris Trapasso
Trip was awesome. Obviously the game, not the most aesthetically pleasing game, but, you know, we'll take. Was just fantastic. You know, first time that I was able to do something like this with my kids, so they enjoyed it. You know, I think that made it even more memorable, obviously, to see their reaction. So it was. It was just exciting all the way around and, you know, would have been disappointing to see them lose. But I feel bad for Houston. They played a great game. You know, refs certainly weren't a little bit too much involved on both sides. But in any event, you know, for. For Gator Nation, it was fun to see us come out on top.
- [03:45]
Jamie Eisenberg
It was a great game. It was really cool. And we welcome you back. And I didn't. I don't even care what you were. I was just trying to set you up for an answer so I could.
- [03:51]
Chris Trapasso
Play that music after that.
- [03:52]
Jamie Eisenberg
All right, you know what? I have. Hey, Dave, what's up?
- [03:56]
Adam Azer
Hell, hey, I got one more.
- [03:59]
Jamie Eisenberg
One more song to play. Oh, it's the rockin version. Happy birthday 2. Does anybody know whose birthday it is? One of the prospects we're talking about today.
- [04:11]
Adam Azer
Oh, I know this.
- [04:12]
Dave Richard
Come on.
- [04:12]
Adam Azer
Yeah.
- [04:14]
Chris Trapasso
Yes.
- [04:14]
Adam Azer
I know who it is.
- [04:15]
Jamie Eisenberg
10 tight end. Could be a first round pick.
- [04:18]
Dave Richard
Yeah.
- [04:18]
Jamie Eisenberg
Happy birthday. Coast and Loveland out of Michigan, 21 years old and Chris is a pretty young tight end class. Colson Loveland's 21. Elijah Royo just turned 22 four days ago. Harold Fannin Jr. Is going to turn 21 in July. Terence Ferguson turned 22 in February. Tyler Warren's the old man was set on the show a couple days ago that he's like 25, but he's actually turning 23 in May. He's not that old, but you like that about this class. Young players. Mason Taylor is going to turn 21 next month, too. I forgot to mention him. Young players still developing 100%.
- [04:54]
Dave Richard
I think it's gotten to the point post Covid where just because collectively the last Couple drafts, including this one, the group at large is older. That there's the thought, hey, it doesn't matter. Teams don't care. I think it still matters. I think when you are showing that you can produce at a high level at 18, 19, 20 in the NFL, it's kind of the pre Covid thought that the younger players, they obviously just come with more upside. So yes, that is part of what's baked into what you mentioned at the beginning. This really deep and exciting tight end class.
- [05:28]
Jamie Eisenberg
All right, let's go. Let's all do it here. So just someone comes up to you on the show. I know you, you talk about positions and tight ends and Tell me about the tight end position in 10 seconds. Dave, I'll let you start like in the draft. Yeah, yeah. This prospect class in the world of.
- [05:46]
Adam Azer
Professional football, the tight end position. No, there's. There's a lot of fun talent. Definitely some upside in players that can contribute to fantasy potentially for the next four plus years.
- [05:58]
Jamie Eisenberg
Jamie, give me. Hey. Oh, I just saw you in San Antonio. You freaking out. But now tell me about tight ends.
- [06:06]
Chris Trapasso
Hopefully these guys will be better than Kyle Pitts.
- [06:10]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yes. Chris, give me 10 seconds on the tight end position.
- [06:16]
Dave Richard
Two good top end talents in Ty Warren and Colston Loveland and then a lot of like you were saying, young depth that have a lot of promise to become quality pros in the next few years.
- [06:27]
Jamie Eisenberg
Okay, here's mine. Omg, Tyler Warren is one of the best players in the country. He should be an easy top 10 pick. I am obsessed with Tyler Warren. He's my new favorite player.
- [06:40]
Dave Richard
Okay.
- [06:40]
Jamie Eisenberg
Does anybody else. Chris, you feel that way? How do you feel about Tyler Warren? And I just want to say this. I want to give you all the list of 100 catch tight ends and true media goes back to 2016. So the last nine seasons. Here's the list of two of 100 catch tight ends. This past year we had Harold Fannin Jr. Who had 117 catches in 13 games. And we had Tyler Warren who had 104 catches in 16 games. That's the list. That's it.
- [07:12]
Dave Richard
Figured it wasn't that long of a list.
- [07:13]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah, Trey McBride had 90 a few years ago. But if you have 70 catches as a tight end, that's amazing what Fannin and Warren did. Now Warren did it in 16 games. I'll say that Fannin in 13 games, 117 catches. Fannin was the first tight end to ever lead the country in catches and receiving yards. But yeah, Warren's probably going to be the first one selected. How do you feel about him? And I don't want to compare him to Brock Bowers, but just like, is he, how do you feel about him, Chris?
- [07:38]
Dave Richard
I'm not quite as high on him from a traits perspective in terms of his ability to get open, but the reason that he caught over 100 passes, I thought, is just that Penn State and their coaches understood how freaky of an athlete he was. And a lot of the games in the Big Ten and even as they went deep into the College Football Playoff, he looked like a varsity junior senior playing against freshmen and sophomores, just hurdling guys, stiff arming, getting balls out of the backfield. They were using him as like a wildcat running back at times. So I think there's a little bit more rawness to his game than there was with Brock Bowers last year. But in terms of just being that man amongst boys making contested catches, I think he is every bit amid to maybe top 10 overall pick in this draft.
- [08:26]
Jamie Eisenberg
Dave Richard.
- [08:28]
Adam Azer
I, I agree. I, I love the physicality that he brings, and that's something that Brock Bowers brought a lot of when he came out of Georgia. And so that's where the comparison kind of is for me. I worry a little bit about just how many targets Warren will get. He's going to need that perfect situation that, that, that Bowers had with the Raiders last year where he basically became the number one target getter within a month into the season. And if Warren doesn't get that, then it'll still be a good contributor. But I don't know if he can be like a top three, top five type of fantasy tight end.
- [09:01]
Jamie Eisenberg
I just think he's a monster. You know, he, he, the wildcat stuff is so impressive. Obviously over a hundred catches, but also 26 carries, 218 rushing yards, four rushing touchdowns. He was kind of a beast. Jamie, Looking at Chris's mock, we have Tyler Warren to the Chargers at 13 and Colson Loveland to the Broncos at 20, who have Evan Ingram. So I, what do you think about that landing spot if, if for Warren going to the Chargers? That would be a trade, by the way. That would be a mock trade from Miami.
- [09:32]
Chris Trapasso
I mean, we've talked about this a lot about what the Chargers would do at receiver. And I mean, I know I've said this that it felt like they would be more inclined. This was free agency too, you know, to go after tight end as opposed to necessarily looking to significantly upgrade their receiving core if not trying to do both. But, you know, when they, they make the move to get Tyler Conklin. That's not a long term answer, that's a short term answer. And if you look at Greg Roman's history and Jim Harbaugh's history, you know, having a playmaking tight end certainly makes a lot of sense. So I like that move a lot. You know, I think he would be immediate playmaker. Maybe not to the scenario that Dave posed. You know, Brock Bowers walking in and just being fed targets that same level because of McConaughey and you know, even Mike Williams and Quinn Johnson. But you know, obviously you can, you can see the fit and, and the upside there. If that's the case in, in the Denver situation, you know, again, I think long term that would be, you know, fun because Evan Ingram's in his early 30s and Gully was not brought in to be, you know, the, the, the length of, of the rest of his career, you know, to be a significant difference maker. So, you know, with what Denver is looking to do and add young playmakers given their salary cap situation, then sure, yeah, I could see that. Again, short term it would suck, I think, for his fantasy value, but long term, you can grow with bro Nicks and be a nice, nice addition there.
- [10:49]
Jamie Eisenberg
All right, let's get some tight end rankings here. Chris, I'll let you start. I'll ask Dave and Chris for some rankings. Jamie, if you have some, feel free. I know Dave's been doing a lot of scouting. Chris, obviously is what you do all the time. So let's get some tight end rankings here. Give me your top five or six or whatever you want. Rock and roll.
- [11:05]
Dave Richard
Well, obviously I have Tyler Warren at the start. Like I said, I'm not quite as high on him just from a 30,000 foot view. If I'm just evaluating for every team in the draft, we're not, I'm not factoring in potential team fits, things like that. But everything that, that we talked about I think is exactly why he is the consensus number one tight end. I actually have Terence Ferguson from Oregon as my tight end too. I love his yards after the catch ability that jumped off the film for me that the contact balance, the ability to just make defenders miss. Even though he's not a crazy athlete, I don't think he's quite as athletic as he tested. 30 missed tackles on 134 catches at Oregon. That's a pretty big number. Way higher than Colston Loveland's. So he's a really fun player that feels like will be a day two Pick, but I think can outplay that draft position early on. I don't have my top five here with me. I thought we were just going to kind of run. Oh, that's fine guys. And then Harold Fannin, like we mentioned, he did everything that, that you want to do to be on the draft radar from the Mac. 54 or 53 missed tackles forced in his college career on like 180 catches at bowling Green. He's kind of Isaiah likely. I think he's a more explosive version of Isaiah likely. Contact balance through the roof. And then there's some guys later that we can get into that I think could be sleepers that could be in that third to fifth round range who again can outplay their draft position. Where's the contributors early in their careers?
- [12:38]
Jamie Eisenberg
I don't think you said Colson Loveland.
- [12:39]
Dave Richard
I, I do not love Loveland. Okay. In that he reminds me a lot of Noah Fant in that Noah Fant was a big time athlete. We really got sucked into how explosive he was at Iowa, excuse me. And was not great after the catch in terms of yards, after the catch skill like tackle breaking. Colson Loveland only forced eight missed tackles in his career at Michigan. And that to me on 117 catches, eight missed tackles, force is not high enough if he's going to be a first round pick. And like Noah Fant, he was not a great rebounder at Michigan. Only a 40% contested catch win rate. So I think maybe if you think I'm crazy, there is a Trey McBride comparison where he was never this George Kittle after the catch at Colorado State and has become the highest pay tight end in the league. But I'm a little concerned about Loveland. The only thing that I really do like is that he's clearly fast on film. And like you mentioned at the outset here, he's very young. So I do think that there's a lot of upside to his profile.
- [13:43]
Jamie Eisenberg
Oh my gosh, I am so happy to hear someone say this because I watched a video you can go on YouTube. It's Michigan tight end Colson Love on every 2024 Target and Touch. And I watched this for most of the tight ends. We're going to talk about underwhelming, right?
- [13:57]
Dave Richard
I was, I was very underwhelmed.
- [13:59]
Jamie Eisenberg
Well, I, I counted one contested catch for an entire season of targets in 2024 and maybe I missed one or two, I don't know. But I, I texted Dan Schneier. I was like, I don't see any contested Catches here, they ran a lot of plays designed for him. A lot of screens, a lot of plays where he's going across the formation, low a dot stuff. But I also see him. This is tough because I didn't have the all 22. I see Loveland kind of like running NFL routes, like just beating guys one on one more than the other guys that, that I, that I watch. He's good at that. He just. You're right, he doesn't really do any. He's a string bean. I don't know how he weighed 240 pounds or whatever. He looks so, so slim to me. Right. He doesn't really look like a tight end. So I'm not surprised that the physicality stuff, the breaking tackles, the contested catches isn't necessarily there. Is that kind of how you saw it, Chris?
- [14:53]
Dave Richard
Is this me or Dave?
- [14:54]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah.
- [14:54]
Dave Richard
Oh yeah, no, that's, that's exactly what I saw. That, that I actually wrote in my scouting report that he's very narrow framed. Yeah, he kind of looks like a big receiver. And coming from Michigan, you know, being recruited by Jim Harbaugh, I think there's an idea that he's a great blocker just because of the program and how much they like to run the football. But he's, he's not really that. So he doesn't give you that ability. I mean, obviously from a fantasy perspective that's kind of irrelevant, but usually the blocking skills do get these tight ends on the field early in their careers. And yeah, that's why I'm a lot lower on, on Colston Loveland. And we can go back to the what, 2019 draft with Noah fan. Everyone loved him because he ran in the, I think four or five flat and was just crazy athlete, looked like a wide receiver and he's been a solid player in the NFL but never lived up to that first round height because the things that we have grown to realize are so important at tight end, contested catch ability and especially yak. Those are two areas in which I think he is way below being first round caliber.
- [15:53]
Jamie Eisenberg
Interesting.
- [15:54]
Adam Azer
Just to the point of the yak on. First of all, he didn't have a ton of. You mentioned this Adam, like completions on throws of 10 plus. He didn't even have a lot of targets of 10 plus air yards, 15 plus air yards. And granted a lot of tight ends don't generally get targeted 15 air yards down the field. So it goes without saying that this isn't like a huge shocker. But his yards after catch per reception was, was 3.6 or worse on those types of throws. Ten or more air yards downfield and it was actually a little bit higher. When it's 15 plus air yards versus 10 as a blocker. I think his fundamentals are actually great. I just don't know if the execution is good. There's plenty of examples of him getting ragdolled. You might expect him to get ragdolled by like a 300 pound defensive lineman, but not necessarily by linebacker. So maybe there's room for him to like add some bulk and to make him a little bit more physical and stronger. But that could bring down his speed. It really, it's really going to be about fit. And I know that Chris isn't necessarily thinking about fit, but as a fantasy manager I am. And if Loveland goes to a place where a team views him much more as a wide receiver than a blocking tight end, then yeah, of course we're going to love him for fantasy. That should mean a lot of targets. But if it's not that case or if he goes to Denver where in his first year there he's going to be playing behind Evan Ingram and it'll be, you know, a year where he might get lucky to have 35 catches, then maybe we've got to wait that full year before we see the better side of Colson Loveland. But I'm with you. I'm not done watching, filming him, but I've been pretty underwhelmed for a guy who seems to be the consensus number two tight end.
- [17:32]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah.
- [17:33]
Chris Trapasso
There was some talk at the owner's meetings that he's the best receiving tight end of the group.
- [17:38]
Dave Richard
Oh, yeah, right.
- [17:39]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah. Just line them up against a linebacker or something and he kills these guys. I don't. So I don't want to be too negative on Colson Loveland, but how does.
- [17:47]
Adam Azer
He kill them though? Like he's catching the ball. He like he's good to run a short hitch and get a first.
- [17:52]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah. Right. But then after that, how often is.
- [17:55]
Adam Azer
He breaking a tackle and turning a seven yard catch into a 35 yard play?
- [18:00]
Jamie Eisenberg
No. And the other guys are doing it, I think. Right. So. All right, we'll, we'll come right back.
- [18:05]
Adam Azer
A lot of other guys have more speed, so. Sure.
- [18:07]
Jamie Eisenberg
Well, speed. Glad you mentioned that. We'll bring that up in a moment here on, on fantasy football today. We'll be right back after this.
- [18:15]
Adam Azer
What's up, hoop fans? I'm Ashley Nicole Moss and I'm bringing you Triple Threat, your weekly courtside pass to the most interesting moments and conversations in the NBA.
- [18:26]
Chris Trapasso
From clutch performances to the stories shaping.
- [18:29]
Jamie Eisenberg
The game on and off the court, Triple Threat has you covered.
- [18:33]
Adam Azer
With it all, culture, drama and social media buzz.
- [18:37]
Jamie Eisenberg
We're locked in.
- [18:38]
Chris Trapasso
Just like you're locked in.
- [18:40]
Adam Azer
Watch weekly on CBS Sports Network at.
- [18:43]
Chris Trapasso
1:00Pm Eastern or on the CBS Sports.
- [18:46]
Jamie Eisenberg
YouTube channel as we break it all.
- [18:48]
Chris Trapasso
Down fast and fresh.
- [18:50]
Jamie Eisenberg
This is Triple Threat, where basketball meets culture.
- [18:57]
Adam Azer
18 strangers, different walks of life, different belief systems. But you all have one thing in common.
- [19:03]
Dave Richard
You heard the call a survivor.
- [19:06]
Jamie Eisenberg
It's knowing that you're living the best day of your life. This is my season. I've never went camping before.
- [19:14]
Adam Azer
I'm gonna get knocked down.
- [19:16]
Dave Richard
It's not gonna be as hard as losing my sister. Challenge yourself. Chase your dreams.
- [19:20]
Jamie Eisenberg
Survivor new season now streaming on Paramount and new episodes CBS Wednesdays. Just real quick as I wanna ask you if you agree with this premise here. Colson Loveland, 6'six 248 pounds. Elijah Arroyo, 6 5, 250 pounds. Completely different frames, right?
- [19:41]
Dave Richard
Yeah, I think Arroyo is actually a little bit broader in his shoulders and like Dave was, was hinting at with Colson Loveland that maybe he can add some, some weight to his lower half. I think Arroyo kind of the same deal, but I think is a little more NFL ready frame wise right now. And maybe that makes sense because he's a little bit older than Colston Loveland who like you mentioned his birthday today. He's one of the youngest prospects in the class.
- [20:07]
Adam Azer
And Arroyo's already 22.
- [20:09]
Dave Richard
Yep.
- [20:10]
Jamie Eisenberg
Old man. We talked about speed going into the break. Have you noticed this is a pretty slow class? I mean there's no outstanding 40 times. The fastest 40 time Chris at the combine, I think it was Ferguson and 6, 4, 6 3, 463. So you know, pits was like 4, 4. Bowers was like 4, 5, 1. I think Pitts was 4.
- [20:34]
Adam Azer
Right.
- [20:34]
Jamie Eisenberg
4. Yeah. Slow class at least on, you know, in 40 times. Does that matter?
- [20:41]
Adam Azer
But I do think, I think anyway that there are a lot of tight ends that are more of the, the move tight end variety that can be those big pass catching types and not necessarily, you know, a blocking tight end or a tight end that can do it all and that that makes me a little bit more interested in this.
- [21:00]
Dave Richard
Class again from the fantasy perspective, from the speed angle. Just quickly, I, I'm bummed that Dave's guy, Elijah Arroyo wasn't able to work out pre draft and we didn't. I don't think we got a 40 from Mason Taylor. Who looks pretty fast on film.
- [21:14]
Adam Azer
So 468 for Taylor.
- [21:16]
Dave Richard
What did he run?
- [21:17]
Adam Azer
I've got. I see him at 468.
- [21:19]
Dave Richard
Okay, 468.
- [21:20]
Adam Azer
So again, right around love and could run.
- [21:23]
Dave Richard
Yeah. So it is a slower class, although I do think Arroyo could have maybe beaten that 463 because he looks really fluid and just effortlessly fast on film. But I guess what I would say is, yeah, the speed matters at tight end, but it feels like. And we've kind of touched on it already, the Terrence Fergusons, even Arroyo at times, obviously Harold Fannin. The yards after the catch ability is not coming from their speed. It's coming from their contact balance and their cutting skill, which I think this class that tight end has in spades, especially as you get down the board.
- [21:58]
Jamie Eisenberg
All right, so who do you guys think? Oh, Dave, you want to give me your rankings and just tell me, like, who do you guys think could be impact players, fantasy starters at the next level? Dave?
- [22:07]
Adam Azer
Well, mine will be much more geared toward fantasy, so maybe I can answer both questions with this ranking. It's in pencil. Other than Warren at one, he's number one. That's in think. I've got Arroyo second, Loveland third, Mason Taylor fourth, and Fannin's fifth. But it's. It's definitely fluid. I haven't really dug into gunner helm enough to know whether or not I think that he could end up being a decent fantasy tight end. And now I've got to give Ferguson a second look. If Chris has him second, he. He did not really stand out at the Senior bowl, but big dude who can move a little bit. So it's somebody that I need to double check on.
- [22:46]
Jamie Eisenberg
Jamie, have you any buzz on the tight ends, anything you want to add?
- [22:51]
Chris Trapasso
Just the top four for me is the only ones I really looked at. And I just have Taylor ahead of Arroyo, but it's close. But Loveland is second.
- [22:58]
Jamie Eisenberg
Pine War Ferguson was the last guy that I watched. I watched him this morning, and if you watch every target of his, I. I see it too. I really like. I really, really like him. But I. I don't know. I just feel like it's going to really depend on. On where these guys end up and how the NFL evaluates them. And I think it could go in any order. So we've talked. Not. No, I think Warren and Warren will be the first and Loveland will be the second, Although I guess I've seen some mocks where that's flipped. And then after that, when you look at Arroyo Fannin, who we haven't talked about yet. Mason Taylor, Terrence Ferguson. Is that really the next four? Is there another guy that belongs in this discussion? Chris?
- [23:39]
Dave Richard
I don't think so. In terms of where these guys will be picked, there's a few others that I like. There's Josh Simon from South Carolina. He's, he's older, so he kind of bucks the trend at this tight end class. He's already 24, but was really athletic at South Carolina. I don't know what was in the water there. Like everyone from that program tested through the roof at the combine. I also like Jalen Conyers from Texas Tech. He's another one that is kind of like Charles Clay, esque older, started at Arizona State there with the Herm Edwards situation, transferred to Texas Tech. Watch him on film, you will see. And he was like 260 at the combine, like 6, 3, 2, 60. Built kind of like, I don't want to say George Kittle because Kittle's kind of bulked up, but he kind of plays like Kittle in terms of his ability and tenacity as a blocker and after the catch. But who you, who you outlined, Adam, is probably the next year of tight ends like from the round three to round five, that in the right situation like we're always talking about as a tight end, two or three that ascends, could be a decent fantasy contributor early in their careers.
- [24:44]
Jamie Eisenberg
Jamie, do you think Fanon. So Harold Fannin Jr. Who's the guy who set the record for catch, the only tight end ever lead the country in catches and receiving yards out of Bowling Green, Mason Taylor out of lsu, Elijah Arroyo out of Miami, Terrence Ferguson out of Oregon. You think these guys could end up in the second round?
- [25:03]
Chris Trapasso
Oh, for sure. I mean, maybe not all of them, but I think you look at the way the position has changed and how teams are, you know, not necessarily just offensively game planning to use them, how teams are defensively game planning to stop them. You know, I mean, you, you've seen how the position has evolved and you know, from even just the last few years of where Pitts was drafted, where Bowers was drafted, you know what McBride's contract just, you know what he just got paid. You know how teams are investing in the position. Sure. I think with how the, the talented some of these guys are, you know, again, it's, it's not necessarily like so top heavy, but it's top heavy. And then once you start to get into that next year, I think as Chris you know, sort of illustrated. It's, it's a pretty good group. And so there's going to be some teams, especially with how many, you know, teams have compensatory picks and are able to sort of take some swings, you know, if these guys hit, they're difference makers, you know. So like I said, I like Chris's, you know, landing spot of, of Tyler Warren to the Chargers. You know, they may not necessarily have to trade up to still get a guy that they like, especially, you know, knowing the Michigan history there for loved ones. So there's some potential ties in across the league where you could see some of these guys maybe getting, you know, drafted. I don't want to say sooner than they should go, but again, just how the tight end position has evolved and how much these guys are so, so involved as pass catchers now. Like, sure, round two for maybe two or three of them.
- [26:21]
Jamie Eisenberg
So, Chris, last year we had Bowers go 13th overall and then we had Ben Sennett in the second round, Tip Ryman in the third round, Jatavian Sanders, Theo Johnson and Eric all, and AJ Barner and Cade Stover and Jared Wiley all in the fourth round. If we look at Ben Senate, I think, you know, Senate, Sanders, Theo Johnson, these were guys that we thought maybe could have an impact, maybe as rookies they had good, good skill sets. Are this, Are the top six tight ends. I mean, obviously, you know, the first two will be. Are the top six tight ends all better than the number two tight end off the board last year? And Ben Senate.
- [26:58]
Dave Richard
I really liked Ben Sennett and I think, I mean, again, situation obviously matters and how many targets he can get. I think he can be a quality player in his second season because the athleticism was absolutely there with him coming out of Kansas State. Yak ability that we've talked about, very reliable hands. So it's. I don't know if I would put any of the. From three through seven to eight, like, clearly ahead of Benson. If someone loves Elijah Arroyo or the upside of Colston Loveland or maybe even Mason Taylor, I could see it. But I think Ben Sennett, we can't totally say that just because he didn't break out right away as a rookie means that he's totally, you know, going to be insignificant in the NFL.
- [27:43]
Jamie Eisenberg
And Dave, when you evaluate these guys, right, like you might like Elijah Arroyo more than Harold Fannin Jr. And I believe I mentioned this on Monday's show, but if you. The best play to watch for Elijah Arroyo is him chasing down the Virginia Tech defensive back who intercepted Kate Ward. You will see speed. It's just like DK Metcalf, the DK Metcalf player. Not the same speed, but the same concept. How I, how can I possibly rank Elijah Arroyo, who had I think 46 catches in his career, ahead of Harold Fannin Jr. Who had 117 catches last season? You know, the thing about Fan, and we haven't mentioned this yet, fannin is small. 6 3, 241 pounds. That is probably the problem here. But do you, you rank Arroyo ahead of Fannin. So what do you think about just the raw production argument there?
- [28:39]
Adam Azer
I don't like the raw production argument. You need to have context with these things. And Arroyo was a great pass catcher for Miami, but he was one of like four regular targets for Cam Ward. And there were other contributing wide receivers that were just like speed guys downfield that earned targets because of it. And Arroyo wasn't even the only tight end in the game. They had a bunch of other guys that would contribute there. So he, he, he played his role and he did what he could with it. I don't know what the situation was like for Fannin, but judging by the lack of, what is it, Bowling Green prospects in the NFL draft, I'm going to guess that Fannin had a hammer lock on the target volume that he would get there. And so the guy that's going to get more targets is going to get better numbers at least raw stats wise on a every single time. It's not a year to year basis. It's, it's everywhere across the board.
- [29:33]
Chris Trapasso
What did, what did Fanon run?
- [29:35]
Jamie Eisenberg
They all ran and so did Arroyo. I'm sorry. I had arroyo at 469 and I had fanon at 4 7.
- [29:43]
Adam Azer
Was arroyo at his pro day?
- [29:45]
Jamie Eisenberg
It must have been. They did not run at the combine.
- [29:47]
Chris Trapasso
Because if you're, if you're fanning and you're that small for the, for, for a tight end, you'd almost want to be a wide receiver given what the contracts are that position. Like yeah, if he, if, if he can, if he can make the switch and be successful there, like that's a better scenario for him. If he's, if he's gonna obviously struggle potentially that time.
- [30:09]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah, I think he's too, I don't think he could be a wide receiver, but not with, not with four, seven speed.
- [30:15]
Chris Trapasso
Right.
- [30:17]
Jamie Eisenberg
But yeah, I mean I, I think I kind of was a little bit lower on Arroyo just because, I mean Fanon, I mean just 35 catches last year, you know, I know we have to project, but Bowling Green was only 46 in the country in pass attempts and he still had 117 catches. So that's incredible to me. What do you think about Fanon, Chris?
- [30:40]
Dave Richard
I, I really like him just from a yak perspective, which I don't want to just continue to say the same thing, but it's, it's what I place maybe second to just separation ability in terms of evaluating tight ends like Dave was was referencing earlier that you don't see with Colston loveland's film. That 7 yard hitch that turns into a 35 yard gain that we've seen from the Travis Kelsey's and the Mark Andrews and the George Kittles over the last decade. You see that littered all over Harold Fannin's film. Now we're talking about that. He's a little smaller. He's not crazy fast. He did it as the kind of the, the Ty Warren of the Bowling Green offense. He's not going to get that volume in the NFL. So that's why I'm a little bit lower on him because the traits even though he had the crazy production are not like, oh my God, this is Vernon Davis 2.0. But he can take those schemed open throws that we've seen, become a prominent or I don't want to say prominent feature, but have become a feature of every NFL offense and take that throw into the flat and turn it into a 15 yard gain as well as any tight end in this class, man.
- [31:46]
Adam Azer
And that's the kind of thing that's going to draw in coaches. They'll, they'll, they'll see that and they'll say, all right, well he played for Bowling Green. Can he do that against NFL pros? And if they think that he can, then that's what's going to get Fan and drafted. Good point over anything like whatever his 40 time was. I wanted to just a quick comparison on some metrics between Fannin and Arroyo. You mentioned that Arroyo had 35 catches and Fannin had 117. Fanon had a 39% target share, Arroyo had 14.2%.
- [32:16]
Dave Richard
Wow.
- [32:16]
Adam Azer
But on yards per catch, Arroyo 16.9 fan in 13.3 yards after catch per reception. Both these numbers are great by the way. 8.9 for Arroyo, 7.5 for Fannin. By comparison, Loveland was at 5.2. Explosive play rate, 27.7% for Arroyo, 25.3% for Fanon, and again, just comparing to level and level was at 13.4. So I think you could Just tell by these metrics that the two tight ends that aren't getting talked about as much as Loveland, we're getting the job done, at least on explosive basis without necessarily one of them getting the volume that we wanted. If we're judging these guys based on their athleticism and projected for what they can do in the NFL, A, this is very good for fantasy and B, if a team recognizes that, they'll draft these guys maybe a little bit sooner than we thought and they'll apply them into their offenses as soon as they possibly can.
- [33:11]
Jamie Eisenberg
Now, I have looked at a lot, a lot of this in the NFL level and explosive play rate and what it means for. For tight ends. It is at both tight end, wide receiver, it is very much tied to adot. And that's. And I bring that up because Arroyo had a very high ADOT. He had the sixth highest a dot among tight ends at 11.1 yards. And Arroyo led all tight ends in yards per catch and he only had 35 catches. So that helps too. But when you talk about Loveland and Fanon having very different explosive play rates. Dave, I'm glad you brought this up. Fanon much better. They had very similar ADOTs. 7.1 for Loveland, 7.5 for Fanon. But I don't know any tight ends that are six, three that are good in the NFL. You know, that's. It's tough. I think Jordan was small. Right. But sure, maybe John. Who? Smith. I'll check.
- [34:03]
Dave Richard
Which I don't. It's kind of like Johnny Smith on film. Sorry, Dave, go ahead.
- [34:08]
Adam Azer
No, no, and I'm sorry for jumping in. I was going to say that if Fannon's going to be used exclusively as a wide receiver and we're just going to call him a tight end, but he's running routes all over the place. He's basically Evan Ingram then, you know, we can find matchups. A coach will say that we can find matchups for him to win.
- [34:25]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah, John Smith was a good call. It looks. He's. He's listed as 6 3, but you're right.
- [34:32]
Dave Richard
I mean, there aren't many who are 63 that are really good, but that's. I'm thinking Isaiah likely and John New Smith is kind of just stylistic comparisons and the. I'm not sure about the workouts, but the height, weight, length, all of that, very similar to Harold Fannin.
- [34:48]
Jamie Eisenberg
Honestly, they haven't been that good. I mean, from a fantasy standpoint, they've had nice careers. But John Smith and Isaiah likely have combined for one good fantasy season.
- [34:57]
Chris Trapasso
Jamie, any of these rookie tight ends would take John to Smith's career right now.
- [35:00]
Jamie Eisenberg
Right, but we're from a fantasy standpoint here. I mean, you know, I let. Jamie, let me get to the mock draft and get your thoughts here. So let's see. Arroyo, he has 106th overall to the Patriots. You think?
- [35:15]
Chris Trapasso
I mean, there's a. There's a log jam there, you know, so his rookie season would be a little bit, you know, probably of a struggle knowing that they bring back Hunter Henry and Austin Hooper. But again, long term, you know, this is somebody that can grow with a young quarterback.
- [35:27]
Jamie Eisenberg
Oh, man. Chris Tripasso has killed Mason Taylor's fantasy value. He has mocked him. 45th overall to the Colts.
- [35:38]
Dave Richard
I feel like they need a tight end. They need it.
- [35:41]
Chris Trapasso
Yeah, they do. You're. You're, I guess, hopeful that Anthony Richardson's the long term quarterback there. If he's not, then could be fantastic.
- [35:49]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah. Who else? Ferguson. He's got 84th overall to the Bucks.
- [35:57]
Chris Trapasso
Again, log jam of targets, you know, or log jam to get targets. We'll see. I don't know if I love that one the most.
- [36:07]
Adam Azer
That's a sneaky one. Tampa's a sneaky team to draft a tight end. Otten's in a contract here.
- [36:12]
Jamie Eisenberg
Oh, I kind of like this one. I don't know about this year, but I like it for 20, 26 and beyond. Harold Fannin Jr. 78th overall. Trading up the Rams get Harold Fannin Jr. Jamie.
- [36:24]
Chris Trapasso
Yeah, I mean, that's certainly a coach will find a way to get guys open and use any sort of mismatch he could find. And knowing that, well, Puka's retiring at 30, so we only got six more years of. And Monte Adams is on his way out the door. So I do like that fit. Yes, it's a good call.
- [36:41]
Jamie Eisenberg
All right, let's take a break and talk about quarterbacks. When we come back on Fantasy football today, Survivor 48 is here.
- [36:48]
Dave Richard
And alongside it, we're bringing you a brand new season of On Fire, the only official Survivor podcast.
- [36:54]
Adam Azer
If you're a Survivor super fan, you.
- [36:56]
Jamie Eisenberg
Won'T want to miss this deep dive.
- [36:58]
Adam Azer
Into every episode where we break down how we designed the game game, the biggest moves, your burning questions.
- [37:03]
Dave Richard
It's the only podcast that gives you.
- [37:05]
Jamie Eisenberg
Inside access to Survivor that nobody else can listen to.
- [37:10]
Adam Azer
On Fire, the official Survivor podcast with.
- [37:13]
Dave Richard
Me, Jeff Probst, every Wednesday after the.
- [37:15]
Adam Azer
Show, wherever you get your podcast.
- [37:17]
Chris Trapasso
Just because the 2024 NFL season is.
- [37:19]
Jamie Eisenberg
Over doesn't mean that you're done with football. I'm Mike Renner, co host of the Push in the Pile podcast, part of.
- [37:24]
Chris Trapasso
The CBS Sports Podcast Network, and I'm here to help get you through the spring alongside my co host, former all.
- [37:30]
Jamie Eisenberg
Pro guard Kyle Long. We're going to be diving into the combine, free agency, and the draft because football season never sleeps. It's the offseason when championship rosters are built, so you got to follow along, download and follow Pushing the Pile on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and anywhere else podcasts are found. We're back with Chris Tripasso, Dave Richard, Jamie Eisenberg, I'm Adam Azer. Giving your name in the middle of the podcast is a weird thing to do when you're, like, on YouTube and it's just like, that's very strange. Plus, I'm on every show. Anyway, let's rank the quarterback prospects here. Chris, even if you don't have your rankings in front of us, just give us your thoughts.
- [38:07]
Dave Richard
I do have my rankings. I have Cam Ward 1, and I'm really interested to see what you guys think about my number two. I have Jalen Milro two.
- [38:14]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yes.
- [38:14]
Dave Richard
I have Shadir Sanders at three, Jackson Dart at four, and actually Will Howard at five. Because after that, I think after those top four, which are the, to me, the clear consensus top four, there's a bunch of those mid to late round day three guys or where you could like a Brady Cook from Missouri or Quinn Ewers from Texas. Will Howard on film was better to me than when I was watching him at Ohio State last season and in the College Football Playoff.
- [38:42]
Jamie Eisenberg
All right, Dave, so Chris goes Cam Ward, Jalen Milroe out of Alabama, Shadur Sanders, Jackson Dart, and Will Howard. What do you say if, if you're.
- [38:52]
Adam Azer
A team that believes that you can fix Jalen Milrose, short area passing ability and his processing overall, that's how it should be ranked. Meaning that he does have the upside to be the second best quarterback in the class. And for fantasy purposes, he might be the best because of what he can do as a runner on top of already a, a strong arm. I don't know if I want to call him a gifted arm, but there's obviously problems in his game and certainly short area accuracy that, that slows people down from saying, whoa, he's going to be amazing. But again, if you can fix it and make him better in those areas, then you're going to have a stellar quarterback.
- [39:34]
Jamie Eisenberg
Okay. And your ranking, sir, he's going to.
- [39:38]
Adam Azer
Be fourth for me. I've got Ward 1, Dart 2, Sanders 3, Milro 4. Who's five? Tyler Shock.
- [39:47]
Jamie Eisenberg
Okay, sorry, I'm just writing down your answers. You had Sanders three.
- [39:53]
Adam Azer
I did.
- [39:54]
Jamie Eisenberg
Okay, so you both had Sanders three. Jackson Dart.
- [39:57]
Dave Richard
Correct.
- [39:58]
Jamie Eisenberg
Two for Dave, four for Chris. Jamie, if you're doing a mock draft in a dynasty league right now, how would you rank some of the top quarterbacks? You know, just in a super flex.
- [40:09]
Chris Trapasso
Dynasty league pre draft, it would be I. I go chalk. I'll go Ward Sanders Dart, top three. I actually like Kyle McCourt. I think he's going to be an interesting prospect, you know, seeing where he ends up out of Syracuse. But I'd probably go mill row four and then McCord five.
- [40:24]
Jamie Eisenberg
Okay. Milroe is the exciting 4.40 speed. Unbelievable. His coordinator in Alabama is now Cleveland's offensive coordinator, Tommy Reese. What do you make of the fact.
- [40:38]
Chris Trapasso
That he just hosted him for a visit, too?
- [40:40]
Jamie Eisenberg
There you go.
- [40:42]
Dave Richard
He got invited to the draft. I saw, too. Not that that always means that those players will be picked, but that was raising some eyebrows in the draft industry that people thought, oh, hey, this could be a third or fourth rounder. Jalen Milro, and then he gets invited to the draft.
- [40:54]
Jamie Eisenberg
A little bit of controversy about his hand size because you don't want hands smaller than 9 inches. Before the combine, they were smaller and then after the combine they were bigger. So that was. What do you make of the fact that Jalen Milroe had 16 touchdowns to 11 interceptions and seven fumbles in 2024, but in 2023 he had 23 touchdowns, six interceptions and two fumbles. So took care of the ball really, really well in 2023 and very poorly in 2024.
- [41:24]
Dave Richard
I can start and segue off. What Dave mentioned that the short area accuracy is not good, like underneath. And I think what he did from just in 24, it felt like he was swinging for the fences way too much. Like I would assume the ADOT was even was close to the same, if not higher in 24. That I think what he needs to learn beyond just like being coached up on the accuracy and just going through those reps underneath, he needs to learn to get to the checkdown faster than he did at Alabama in 24. It kind of felt like he thought it was all on him and he had to hit those big plays down the field repeatedly. And if he didn't, the offense was in shambles when in reality checking it down or finding the second read underneath probably would have been better. So I think like Jalen Hurts coming out of Alabama and then Oklahoma in 2020. That was what he needed to do as well. And he, he kind of got that final season of learning how to play within a structured system with Lincoln Riley. That's what Jalen Milro needs in the NFL.
- [42:28]
Chris Trapasso
It's a great comparison too because of where he may get drafted.
- [42:31]
Dave Richard
You know, so it's really round true.
- [42:33]
Chris Trapasso
Comes in as a backup somewhere and then just the right situation ends up starting for our purposes, probably more so than NFL purposes. But hopefully he can turn, you know, his, he can, you know, step in the NFL and, and look a little bit more like a polished pass. You know, looking at Anthony Richardson, for example, maybe something that the Colts were trying to do when they benched him last year and bringing in some competition this year is as they've said time and time again, you know, he's still far from a prospect, but, you know, thrust into the NFL and forced to start because of where they drafted.
- [43:05]
Jamie Eisenberg
You know, I'm going to throw to Chris first on this one. We talked about Shadur Sanders whenever you were on a month and a half ago, whatever it was. And at that point there was still talk about who's the number one quarterback. Is it him or Ward? Could he be the number one pick? Could he be the number two pick? Where do you have him in your mock drafts?
- [43:24]
Dave Richard
Right now I have him still inside the top 10. Although what's interesting is that and maybe Jamie got some of this info at the owner's meetings. But I know that's all like off the record, that cocktail party I've just been hearing from there from the senior or from the combine that like the, the league so to speak in general is a little lower entre Sanders. I just have continued to mock him inside the top 10 because there are still quarterback needy teams. The jets, the saints, 7 and 9 respectively would make a lot of sense. Like I said with Dave, like he's my third best quarterback. And later I can give a quick comparison that I have for him that just came to me recently. But yeah, I just feel like the league as a whole in a vacuum would say no, this is like a late first round pick, maybe even early second. But the needs at some of those teams at the quarterback spot, even the Steelers at 20 feels like there's no way that he's going to fall out of the first round.
- [44:23]
Chris Trapasso
It's definitely the thing that, you know, is generating the most buzz is where, where will he go? Because I, I think from what you're hearing and Certainly, again, that was a big conversation at the, at the meetings because basically the Titans were saying, yeah, Ward is one. You know, like that's, you know, it's not it. To use Dave's phrase, it's in pencil, but it seems like it's pretty much in pen at this point. I would not be surprised if a team like the Giants, for example, trades back into the first round. I'm saying that they're going to do that, but, you know, somebody that passes on him early, gets back into it late if he falls because of the potential of still what he can be, a position that clearly, if you solve it, you solve it and you're hopefully good for 10 years, 10 plus years. To me, the Steelers are kind of the team I circle, you know, if, if he gets past the Steelers, knowing that, assuming they sign Aaron Rodgers, but, you know, knowing that their quarterback situation is not settled, like, that's where I think you start to raise a lot of red flags of why is he continuing to fall? You know, so. And that's where also I think, you know, you see teams maybe jump back in, you know, okay, starting in the early 20s, if, if he's still, you know, sitting on the board, because I, I would still expect him to be the second guy taken. But this is such a weird league. You know, it's a, it's. It just takes one team to be enamored with him and to look at it and say, okay, he's coming mentally pro ready. Forget about the football side of it. He was raised in this and money is taken care of. So he's not going to be thrown off by all this money that's thrown at him. He's going to be able to handle those things. For example, he can handle New York, in my opinion. He can handle that type of a market. It'll just be interesting to see which team takes a, you know, gamble, if you want to call it that, but could go as high as still three and could fall late first round.
- [46:12]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah, I was going to say, I wonder if things have gotten too negative on him. You know, it's like now he's just.
- [46:17]
Chris Trapasso
A lot of that is smokescreen stuff, you know, it's. If the Giants really love him, they really love him. Let's just say they'll start talking up Abdul Carter or Travis Hunter. They'll start, you know, whispering, oh, yeah, we, we don't like him, you know, to. Especially that market. Yeah, he's, he's not for us. And that just starts to spread like wildfire, you know, so it's, it's an easy, it's an easy thing to sort of look through that and say again, one team has to be, yeah, the jets could be in love with him. The, the Giants could be in love with him. The Steelers could trade up to go get him. You know, it could be, I'm trying to think like, you know, the Rams, for example, with a 35, 36 year old Matthew Stafford, you know, could shock the world and say, you know, this is our heir apparent, you know, sure, anything's possible with this league.
- [47:00]
Jamie Eisenberg
Well, I actually would like to hear the comparison. Chris, that just came to you on Shitter.
- [47:04]
Adam Azer
Yeah.
- [47:04]
Dave Richard
Okay. Josh Rosen, so similar in so many ways even. I mean, you guys were just talking about the off the field that like the money situation is settled. That was the deal with Josh Rosen. Now there was a lot which I never really got any information on, but that like Josh Rosen wasn't super motivated because. Which I don't know if Shadow Sanders is super motivated, but there's not this, you know, hunger to prove himself to get that generational contract because we know what his family situation is. But for me on the field, Josh Rosen In 2018, in what was a very polarizing and obviously awesome quarterback class was like the least polarizing. Like everyone had him as either like quarterback two or three. They're like, he's good, he looks the part. He's a rhythm passer in the pocket, fundamentally sound, the accuracy is there, he can run a little bit, but he's not a great athlete. And I'm thinking of my old scouting report and just watching those Josh Rosen games at UCLA where you can get lulled to sleep and be like, man, this guy is just a pro ready pocket passer. I don't want him running that much, but he can do it. All those things I just mentioned, that's kind of how I feel about Shador Sanders. That doesn't mean that I think he's going to be out of the league in two years and play on six different teams and be on a practice squad by his third season. But stylistically, and then you mentioned some of the off the field stuff. I think Josh Rosen is like the most apt comparison for Shadow Sanders in this draft.
- [48:28]
Jamie Eisenberg
Guys, what kind of throws do you care most about? I think we, you know, we just, you go online, say watch some Shadur Sanders highlights, you're going to see some pretty good deep balls. Milroe obviously is great deep ball, great army, but I hear a lot like Dan Schneier, for example. You Got it. You got to hit the slants, you got to hit, throw into tight windows, those types of things. So when you're looking at these quarterbacks, what matters to you and which quarterbacks do it? Well, Dave, I'll start with you.
- [48:58]
Adam Azer
You have to be able to process first and foremost and know what you're looking at defensively, what type of coverage, both pre snap and post snap. You've got to find the open man. Sometimes the open man is going to be in a tight window. Sometimes you have to throw a man open, all right, and put the ball in a place where only he can get in, the defender can't. These are all things that matter. The other thing that I love and I, I love seeing this is when a quarterback makes a big play off schedule or improvisationally, you know, it's supposed to be a simple play design where the quarterback's supposed to look at, you know, his ex wide receiver, but the ex wide receivers double covered. And now here comes pass rush pressure. Does the quarterback get scared and slide and go into the fetal position? Does he try to make a play? Does he succeed at making that play? And that's where I think Cam Ward is head and shoulders above everybody else in this draft class and above a decent amount of the quarter the backs. Last year too, he made a ton of improvisational plays and coaches love that. You know, it's one of those things where like, you'll see a player do something and you go, no, no, no, don't do that. And then the quarterback throws a 40 yard deep ball for a completion or a touchdown or something, and the coaches are like, yeah, that was perfect. That's what you're looking for from, from a quarterback, a guy who can be a playmaker. We, we talked a lot about Caleb Williams last year, about how he tried to play Superman too much. Well, if a lot of those plays ended up being touchdowns for Chicago, nobody would complain about it. But when a quarterback can do that, when they can make plays off schedule that help a team win, the coaches will love them and fantasy managers will love them too, because that means more fantasy points.
- [50:33]
Jamie Eisenberg
Who's making the NFL throws, Chris, that, that you want to see in this quarterback class?
- [50:39]
Dave Richard
Well, I think Dave hit the nail on the head with Cam Ward because you do. It's become a staple of playing the quarterback position at a high level today, those off structure throws. And Cam Ward certainly did that better than any other quarterback, if we're thinking or if, if I'm thinking just NFL throws from the pocket like Dave was Mentioning being able to process, I think, seam routes where there's a linebacker underneath the throw and a safety over top of it, to have the ability to maybe look off the safety or hold the linebacker for a second and then kind of lift it over the linebacker but arrive before the safety gets there, that's really important. I thought Jackson Dart did that a lot at Ole Miss, that that offense was pretty gimmicky and featured a lot of vertical routes. I think he's got good touch and good accuracy in that area. And then I like to see just from an arm strength perspective. Not that it's the old classic just deep out from the far hash, but those flag routes or those post corners where there's usually a split field safety on that side of the ball or on that side of the field, and do you have enough arm strength and maybe like Dave was mentioning, the anticipation to throw that before the wide receiver even breaks toward the sideline, you're not leading him inside where the safety can make a play. You're not drifting him to the sideline. And I think for as much as we've kind of dogged Shador Sanders, I think Shador Sanders has that ability, maybe not with the arm strength, but the anticipation because he's played so much college football, to realize what coverage it is. All right, this is going to be a good look for this throw, and then ultimately throw it well before his wide receiver makes his break.
- [52:13]
Jamie Eisenberg
Okay. I don't really know what to. This is really not a good quarterback class.
- [52:21]
Adam Azer
No, it's shaky.
- [52:22]
Dave Richard
It's not.
- [52:23]
Adam Azer
And, and unfortunately, a lot of these guys could go the way of the Rosen. Maybe not as fast, but three years from now, a lot of these guys could be backups. They could go the way of Trey Lance or Mac Jones where they just, they. They get their opportunity, they don't do well with it, and the teams are on to the. The next quarterback that they find. I think that Ward is just a clear number one. And then I, I don't know if this is how Chris feels by having Melro at two, but I, I feel like Jackson Dart at two, for me, he is a lot closer to Shadow Sanders at 3 than he is to Cam Ward at 1. So if there were tears in a tear by himself and then maybe even nobody in the next tier, I don't know if we've ever done that before. I don't even know if that makes sense. But then the tier after that, that's when you'd see Darton Sanders.
- [53:09]
Chris Trapasso
For me, Ward is the Only one that would have been drafted pretty close to the first round if not in the first round of the class last year.
- [53:17]
Dave Richard
100 I agree with that.
- [53:18]
Chris Trapasso
These other guys wouldn't sniff the first round last year based on how that class was.
- [53:23]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah, I think the Ward versus Drake May argument is a fun one. I think you look at the last year that they both had in college playing in the same conference. Cam Ward was a Heisman Trophy candidate and Drake May was just, was not even that good ways got the size and then May had a great 2022 season. Much better than it goes back to.
- [53:44]
Chris Trapasso
Your tight end prospect, you know, versus production question, you know, like what, what, what do they look like and how do they evaluate? Right.
- [53:50]
Jamie Eisenberg
But I mean I, I don't, I don't know. Yeah, I, I don't know. I, I, to me Ward is better. But if you were, if you were going to rank them, Chris, you know, there's no way you can make a case I think for Ward ahead of Caleb or Jaden Daniels. But what about Drake May versus Ward?
- [54:05]
Dave Richard
I still liked May more. I actually wrote this article like a month or two ago like where Shadur Sanders and Cam Ward would rank among the six quarterbacks in the first round last year. And then we were just assuming that they, that Ward and Sanders would be first rounders this year. Believe I had Cam Ward right in the Bo Knicks range as like the fifth quarterback out of the eight and then Shooter Sanders at eight like the last one. He just, it all comes down to traits in general. And yes there's a lot more mental stuff that goes on at quarterback than probably any other position. But somewhere in that J.J. mcCarthy, Michael Penix bow, Nick's range for Cam Ward and then again at, you know, kind of bringing up the rear would be shooter Sanders at 8.
- [54:45]
Jamie Eisenberg
So how good is Cam Ward? Right. Is he going to be, he's going to be probably the first pick in the draft but is he going to be kind of a bust in that regard? Is he going to be kind of a number one overall pick? Is, you know I, I do see a lot of lists that rank quarterback prospects over the last five years and he's kind of low on the list. He's just benefiting from being in a really bad quarterback class. So in your opinion Chris, how good is Cam Ward?
- [55:11]
Dave Richard
My comparison, it took me a long time with this one because I he's so unique. His kind of lack of size but he can spin it but the improvisation was there. He reminds me a lot of David Garard where you would watch David Garard and be like, he's not that great of an athlete, but he just made a lot of plays and he's not hyper accurate. But there were not a lot of stretches there in Jacksonville where he was throwing the ball all over and having wayward misses. He kind of got the most out of every ounce of athleticism and every ounce of talent that he had as a passer during his career. That's kind of how I view Cam Ward and that the traits in a vacuum are not tremendous, but I love that. From Incarnate word to Washington State to Miami, he ascended, he got better, he improved some of the intricacies of playing the quarterback position. So he is a classic overachiever. And I think he's going to have to be an overachiever to overcome what is still a pretty barren roster early in his career in Tennessee.
- [56:11]
Chris Trapasso
He's made a lot of people in Tennessee throw up.
- [56:13]
Dave Richard
David Garrard, he was good, right? I mean, that's not good. That's. That's not meant to be a diss.
- [56:21]
Jamie Eisenberg
It's just stylistically, when you think you're.
- [56:23]
Chris Trapasso
Getting the number one overall pick and.
- [56:25]
Dave Richard
The best quarter, you don't think David Gerard. You're right. Who do you think, Dave? What are your thoughts on him as the Miami guy?
- [56:31]
Adam Azer
Oh, I mean, I, I've, I've enjoyed watching him play and absolutely think that he's a playmaker. And it wouldn't surprise me. I think about other number one quarterbacks like Baker Mayfield and Jared Goff, and they had bumpy moments throughout their career where you stop and think, oh, these guys might be bus. And then they find a way to come back and, and, and they, they do it differently than Cam Ward. But I think Ward could end up being one of those guys that is a solid NFL starter. Not, not gonna get confused with Josh Allen or Mahomes. Not going to be a top five NFL quarterback. He's not going to be toward the top of any big media lists or anything like that, but still, somebody who can serviceably play the position and maybe even, you know, going to the Pro bowl isn't a big deal, but, but earn some all pro nods and get some attention, maybe make the playoffs a few years. That's what I think people in Tennessee are hoping for. And as long as that's the expectation and not, you know, he's, he's the next Mahomes and he's not that. Although he does some Mahomesian things, as long as that's the expectation I think they'll be happy with them.
- [57:36]
Dave Richard
So a lot like David Garard, who I just looked up was a Pro bowler in 2009. I did not know that previously.
- [57:42]
Jamie Eisenberg
My guess, how many winning seasons did.
- [57:46]
Adam Azer
Gerard have as a starter?
- [57:48]
Dave Richard
I. I think a lot. Didn't he. I mean, those are some pretty good.
- [57:53]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah.
- [57:53]
Dave Richard
I was gonna say, let's see.
- [57:55]
Jamie Eisenberg
Yeah, let's. Let's look up. I'm just. While you do that, I just want to say I feel like his outcome, I don't think he's the same player. Similar, but not going to run as much. But I feel like he'll be kind of as good as Kyler Murray in this area where people don't really know how good Kyler Murray is, he's obviously good. A lot of teams would love to have Kyler Murray, but they're not sure if Kyler Murray could ever win you a Super bowl or something like that. And I'm not saying that Cam Ward can't get to that heights. He's obviously a winner. You know, he, he won so many games, single handedly won 10 games for a team with a dreadful defense. But I just feel like he'll be kind of, you know, QB somewhere 8 to 15 or something in the NFL.
- [58:36]
Dave Richard
That's fair.
- [58:37]
Jamie Eisenberg
It's kind of.
- [58:37]
Dave Richard
I just looked it up. Garard was a full time starter for four seasons, two of which ended with a winning record. And he did win that playoff game in Pittsburgh. He started three playoff games or I guess he was a part of the Jags in 05, wasn't the starter. Two playoff games, one win, one loss. So maybe that's like the lower end and Kyler Murray is the higher end in terms of being in that quarterback 8 to 15 range. Where we're not getting too crazy in terms of where we think he can be. But he's not going to be a terrible pro. He actually has a pretty high floor based on where he was just a few years ago.
- [59:12]
Jamie Eisenberg
I just want to bring up one stat before we finish here because, you know, completion percentage gets talked about a lot. And shoulder sanders led the nation 74 completion rate, Shadur Sanders. There's criticism of Sanders that, you know, just throws short all the time. So I only looked at completion percentage on air yards. 5 to 15 air yards past 10 to 5 to 15 air yards. Arbitrary. But you know, everyone's in the same ballpark now. Guess who led the nation in completion percentage with Shadur Sanders? 80.6%. Number one Jackson Dart was ninth. Dylan Gabriel was 16th 70.7%. Kyle McCord was 21st. Cam Ward was 26th. Jalen Milro was 51st at 65.3 completion rate. Tyler Shuck was 56th. Tyler Schuck people dog on Jalen Milroe for his completion percentage. Tyler Schuck's completion rate was awful. It's like 60.
- [60:03]
Chris Trapasso
He's also 27. Right?
- [60:05]
Jamie Eisenberg
He's 26, I think. Yeah, he's. He's old in 1999, so. And you know, I want to bring up one other quarterback that was not very good, not bad, but not very good in completion rate of on past attempts of 5 to 15 air yards in his last two seasons in college. Caleb Williams. I was kind of surprised and this was a huge problem for him as a rookie in 2024. That was just something that jumped out to me. Jamie, this his biggest issue. Just his accuracy in intermediate throws was also kind of an issue in college and it's just kind of, kind of interesting. And Jalen Milro is another guy who struggles with that. So I don't know. You don't have to give a thought on that. If you want, you can just, just say something.
- [60:57]
Chris Trapasso
Ben Johnson fixes it.
- [60:59]
Jamie Eisenberg
There you go. Any final thoughts, guys?
- [61:04]
Adam Azer
I wouldn't call 5 to 15 air yards intermediate throws.
- [61:08]
Jamie Eisenberg
There's some intermediate in there, you know.
- [61:10]
Adam Azer
Yeah, toward the like 10 to 15. That's intermediate.
- [61:15]
Jamie Eisenberg
I mean like an eight yard throw is.
- [61:18]
Adam Azer
Yeah, but, but you're lumping in that stat with 15 air yard throws, so.
- [61:22]
Jamie Eisenberg
All right, fine. I, I bet you that. I bet if I. Adam would never manipulate stats.
- [61:27]
Chris Trapasso
Not him.
- [61:28]
Jamie Eisenberg
No, I just, I'm taking away zero yard passes. I'm taking away two yard pad. I'm taking away wide receiver screens.
- [61:35]
Adam Azer
Okay, so why don't you do one where it's like three to eight air yards and then nine to 15.
- [61:42]
Jamie Eisenberg
It's not going to be that different. But I'll do it right now. You guys talk about whatever you want for the next 30 seconds.
- [61:47]
Dave Richard
I can throw out two more tight ends that. Dave, Jamie, I would highly recommend you guys watching. I, I don't think these guys are going to get picked super early. Ronde Gadstin, who is a former wide receiver.
- [62:00]
Adam Azer
Yeah.
- [62:01]
Chris Trapasso
Because I covered it.
- [62:03]
Dave Richard
Yeah, yeah. It's crazy to, to get some of these late 90s, early 2000s wide receivers that are now sending kids to the or players that are now sending their kids to the NFL. Gadsden's interesting because he was like, oh man, he's too slow and too stiff to play Wide receiver. But now he's a tight end, bulked up a little. The route running skills are certainly there. He's not crazy explosive, but rebounding is good. He's kind of a sneaky player that could get picked on day three. And then teams are just like, hey, this is a. We're not going to ask him to block. But he is truly a wide receiver at the tight end spot.
- [62:35]
Adam Azer
Yeah.
- [62:36]
Dave Richard
And then Gavin. And then Gavin Bar. Gavin Bartholomew from Pittsburgh is also very fun. He reminded me so much of Jake Ferguson on film that he is spindly but very athletic. Good after the catch. Those two are two of my favorites on favorites on day three, especially just looking through the lens of fantasy upside because of how good they are as receivers.
- [62:59]
Jamie Eisenberg
Okay, Dave, air yards of nine to 15. Nine to 15 air yards, pass attempts. Guess who's number one?
- [63:06]
Adam Azer
You can't tell me. It's shitter.
- [63:07]
Jamie Eisenberg
It is shitter. Cam Ward, 10th. Jackson Dart 15th. Will Howard, second. Milroe 47th. Shook oh, 24th. Interesting. So he was better. He wasn't so good on like five to nine yards, I guess. Caleb Williams, though, the year before, not so good. It was 41st out of 125 quarterbacks. But like Penix was eighth. Cam Ward was second. Who else? McCarthy was 17th. Jaden Daniels was 58th, is actually worse than Caleb Williams. All right, thank you very much, Chris Gerpaso. We really appreciate it.
- [63:48]
Dave Richard
Hey, thanks for having me on and letting me rant about some of these day three guys that probably won't produce much, but I think it is a very deep class and it's a lot more than just Tyler Warren. And it was good that I didn't have to come on and defend my stance on being lower on Colson Loveland.
- [64:05]
Jamie Eisenberg
It was very interesting to hear and we're going to hear you tomorrow when we talk about wide receivers on fantasy football today. For Dave, for Jamie, for Chris. I'm Adam. Have a good one. We'll talk to you tomorrow.
- [64:21]
Dave Richard
Paramount Park.
- [64:24]
Adam Azer
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Dave Richard
You heard the call of Survivor.
- [64:34]
Jamie Eisenberg
It's knowing that you're living the best day of your life. This is my season. I've never went camping before.
- [64:41]
Adam Azer
I'm gonna get knocked down.
- [64:43]
Dave Richard
It's not gonna be as hard as losing my sister. Challenge yourself. Chase your dreams.
- [64:48]
Jamie Eisenberg
Survivor new season now streaming on Paramount and new episodes CBS.