Former Palestinian Negotiator on Trump’s Plan to ‘Take Over’ Gaza

Summary

Fareed Zakaria GPS

Episode: Former Palestinian Negotiator on Trump’s Plan to ‘Take Over’ Gaza
Date: February 17, 2025
Host: Bianna Golodryga (filling in for Fareed Zakaria)

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Overview

This episode tackles several seismic shifts in global politics: the Trump administration’s new approach to the Russia-Ukraine war, controversial plans for Gaza and the Palestinians, possible threats to the U.S. constitutional order, and the growing power of Elon Musk in Washington. Through a series of expert interviews, the episode explores uncertainties and anxieties among European allies, reactions in Moscow, Middle Eastern diplomacy following Trump’s Gaza proposal, and unprecedented developments in U.S. governance.

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1. Trump’s New Approach to the Russia-Ukraine War

Key Participants:

• Yaroslav Trofimov, Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent, The Wall Street Journal

1.1 Key Discussion Points

• Policy U-Turn:
  The Trump administration is now engaging directly with Russia to end the Ukraine war, a sharp reversal from previous efforts to isolate Russia both diplomatically and financially.

  • Planned U.S.-Russia meeting in Saudi Arabia; unclear if Ukrainians will be present ([03:24])

• European Anxiety:
  Europeans are concerned about being excluded from talks which could set precedents for broader security arrangements that affect Europe itself.

  • “[European officials] are afraid that by deciding the fate of Ukraine without them, the U.S. and Russia may also decide the fate of Europe.” – Yaroslav Trofimov ([03:51])

• Diminished Role for Europe & Ukraine:
  The U.S. is pushing Europe to take more responsibility for Ukraine’s defense, prompting discussions about European military capabilities and cohesion.

  • “If you're not at the table, you're on the menu, and Europe does not want to end up on the menu.” – Yaroslav Trofimov ([05:58])

• Shift in Doctrine:
  Trump administration is believed to favor spheres of influence—great powers dominating their neighbors.

• Zelenskyy’s Fears:
  President Zelenskyy sees any Trump-Putin talks excluding Ukraine as deeply alarming, fearing loss of agency and security ([06:55]).

1.2 Memorable Quotes

• “This mantra that nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine is no longer a policy of the United States. It is the policy of European countries.” – Yaroslav Trofimov ([06:55])

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2. Historical Context: Ukraine’s Struggle for Identity

Key Participants:

• Yaroslav Trofimov

2.1 Key Discussion Points

• Root Causes of War:
  The conflict’s roots are historical, embedded in Putin’s persistent belief that “Ukraine is Russia,” denying Ukrainian identity and independence.
• Genocidal Threat:
  Russian occupation has repeatedly led to attempts to erase Ukrainian memory, including destruction of monuments to famine victims ([08:42]).
• Personal History as National History:
  Trofimov discusses his novel inspired by his grandmother’s survival during the Soviet-engineered famine and WWII, underlining why Ukrainians are so resistant to Russian domination.

2.2 Notable Quote

• “If they allow Russia to take over Ukraine again, the very same atrocities of the past will be repeated because many Russian officials are very open about their genocidal plans.” – Yaroslav Trofimov ([09:35])

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3. Russian Perspective and Kremlin Reactions

Key Participants:

• Alexander Gabouev, Director, Carnegie Russia Eurasia Center

3.1 Key Discussion Points

• Kremlin's Elation:
  Russian officials are jubilant over shifts in U.S. posture—a “birthday, Hanukkah, Christmas” all at once ([12:53]).
• Unscripted Summit:
  Potential for a Trump-Putin summit by the end of the month, with both sides seeking an unscripted, top-level meeting ([14:23]).
• Dismantling Ukraine’s Defenses:
  Russia’s main aim is to remove Western security guarantees for Ukraine, such as bilateral agreements crafting a deterrent ([15:48]).
• War as Plan B:
  If negotiations fail, Russia will mobilize more forces and possibly escalate attacks, perceiving Ukraine as running out of time ([17:20]).

3.2 Memorable Quotes

• “It’s indeed like Easter, Hanukkah, Christmas, birthday of Vladimir Putin, and everything is happening in one day.” – Alexander Gabouev ([12:53])
• “Team Trump is playing its own game. It's definitely something beneficial even if the talks don't result in the outcome that Vladimir Putin wants for now.” – Alexander Gabouev ([13:55])
• “Russia's plan B is war and Russia believes that Ukraine doesn't have that much time because of its manpower problems.” – Alexander Gabouev ([17:52])

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4. Trump’s Gaza Proposal and Middle East Diplomacy

Key Participants:

• Gaith Al Omari, Senior Fellow, The Washington Institute; former Palestinian negotiator

4.1 Key Discussion Points

• Trump's Controversial Plan:
  Proposes U.S. control over Gaza and resettling Palestinians in Jordan and Egypt—rejected by both countries as illegal and unacceptable under international law ([21:28]).
• Hostage Deal Tensions:
  U.S. and Israel’s increased pressure on Hamas, and rhetoric about “opening the gates of hell,” could harden positions and stall hostages-for-prisoners exchange ([20:35]).
• Diplomacy Under Duress:
  Trump's proposal accelerates intra-Arab diplomatic efforts; meetings in Saudi Arabia and upcoming Arab League summits aim to create alternative, viable solutions for postwar Gaza ([23:13]).
• Saudi-Leverage:
  Saudis play a pivotal role due to their centrality in regional diplomacy and Trump’s push for Israeli-Saudi normalization ([24:40]).

4.2 Notable Quotes

• “This plan is neither legal nor moral nor practical. However, it did highlight one thing, which is the fact of that there is a vacuum in terms of serious practical ideas... Now, I think Arab countries believe and feel if there's a fire lit under them.” – Gaith Al Omari ([23:13])
• “There are very, very complicated political and security questions that they have to answer.” – Gaith Al Omari ([24:14])

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5. Threats to U.S. Constitutional Order

Key Participants:

• Quinta Jurecic, Fellow, Brookings Institution; Senior Editor, Lawfare

5.1 Key Discussion Points

• Defiance of Court Orders:
  Despite following legal rulings during his first term, Trump and his allies now float the idea of disregarding judicial orders if deemed intrusive to executive power ([27:05]).
• Dangerous Rhetoric:
  Vice President J.D. Vance and senators hint at ignoring judicial authority, which would set unprecedented legal and constitutional crisis ([28:29]).
• Separation of Powers Strains:
  The administration is accused of bypassing Congressional control, especially with federal funding, challenging the balance of U.S. governance.
• Resignation Crisis at DOJ:
  A string of resignations in the Southern District of New York after pressure to drop charges against NYC’s mayor signals dangerous erosion of norms ([32:03]).

5.2 Notable Quotes

• “It would be a different level of crisis if this kind of group were to push forward and try to make the Justice Department outright say we are not going to comply.” – Quinta Jurecic ([29:29])
• “Twice as many people resigned here as did in the Saturday Night Massacre during Watergate.” – Quinta Jurecic ([32:03])

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6. Elon Musk’s Unprecedented Role in Washington

Key Participants:

• Nick Thompson, CEO, The Atlantic

6.1 Key Discussion Points

• Musk as De Facto Power Broker:
  Named head of the Department of Government Efficiency, Musk is rapidly “deleting agencies” and downsizing federal functions, especially USAID ([33:55]).
• Chilling Effects on Press Freedom:
  The Trump administration—and Musk in his own sphere—are seen as eroding traditional First Amendment protections, including threats to journalists over language and critical coverage ([34:39]).
• Musk's Motivation:
  Musk claims to want less government “refereeing,” but critics see a push to consolidate personal control.
  • “He likes being the only referee...he wants to be the referee of the world, the referee of the government, the referee of the new AI systems that we are building.” – Nick Thompson ([37:05])
• Rapid, Unchecked Change:
  Musk enacts reforms faster than Congress. His approach is described as “brute force…checked by the courts, but has come in and changed a lot very rapidly.” ([38:18])
• Legal Limits and Lawsuits:
  Democratic attorneys general sue Musk and DOGE for “seemingly limitless and unchecked power.”

6.2 Notable Quotes

• “It is absolutely true. The President and the vice President have changed the balance…in America and on social media platforms...What we've seen from this administration has been a real push on [freedom of the press].” – Nick Thompson ([34:39])
• “Musk has come in through brute force, now being checked by the courts, but has come in and changed a lot very rapidly. That is one of his superpowers, or one of his supervillain powers, according to his critics.” – Nick Thompson ([38:13])

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7. Timestamps for Important Segments

• Trump's new Russia-Ukraine strategy: [02:55]–[06:55]
• European fear and reaction: [04:53]–[06:20]
• Historical roots of Ukraine conflict (Trofimov): [07:28]–[09:57]
• Kremlin viewpoint (Gabouev): [12:53]–[18:11]
• Trump’s Gaza plan and Arab response (Al Omari): [20:35]–[25:12]
• Constitutional crisis and DOJ resignations (Jurecic): [27:05]–[32:48]
• Elon Musk’s power in Washington (Thompson): [33:55]–[40:08]

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Conclusion

This episode of Fareed Zakaria GPS delivers an urgent, multi-faceted picture of a world order in flux—from shifts in U.S. foreign policy and revived spheres of influence, to a destabilized Middle East and deepening constitutional uncertainties at home. Anxieties abound as traditional guardrails (alliances, norms, institutions) are tested by unconventional decision-makers and events with potentially far-reaching consequences.

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Transcript

[Bianna Golodryga]

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[Bianna Golodryga]

Not available in all states or situations. This is gps, the Global Public Square. Welcome to all of you in the United States and around the world. I'm Bianna Golodriga filling in for Farid, who is off this week. Today on the program, almost three years after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, President Trump wants to bring the conflict to an end, and he wants to do it on his terms. I'll get the latest from the Wall Street Journal's Yaroslav Trofimov and then ask the Carnegie Endowment's Alexander Kabulev how this is all playing in Moscow. Then another highly controversial Trump plan to displace all Gazans, sending them to live in Jordan and Egypt and turn Gaza into a real estate development. I'll talk to a former Palestinian negotiator. Also, the rule of law in America is a constitutional crisis in the offing and an unelected official gutting large swaths of the US Government. What of Elon Musk's unprecedented power? For three years now, the US has worked to isolate Russia, both diplomatically and financially for its war on Ukraine. But now, in a stunning policy shift, we're seeing the Trump administration actively engage Moscow with the aim of ending that war. CNN reports that President Donald Trump's team is set to meet its Russian counterparts in Saudi Arabia in the coming days. It's still unclear whether Ukrainian officials will attend, though the US has stressed that European allies will not be invited. Joining me is Yaroslav Trofimov, the Wall Street Journal's chief foreign affairs correspondent. He is in Munich, Germany, where the leaders had gathered for the annual Munich Security Conference. He's also the author of a fantastic new novel, no country for love, set in 1930s Soviet Ukraine. Yaroslav, great to see you. We will get to the book in Just a moment. But President Trump had campaigned and early on in his administration has long said that he wants to bring this war to an end as soon as possible. No plan has been presented as of yet, and President Zelensky confirmed that from his phone call with Donald Trump, saying that, quote, the call was definitely not enough to form a peace plan. Walk us through at least the early formings that you've heard of what the White House may be proposing and how that is rattling Ukrainian and European officials.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Well, I mean, there will be is going to be this meeting in Saudi Arabia in coming days between senior U.S. and Russian officials, which will be really the first opportunity to discuss what are the parameters of a possible deal. And the US has said that everything is on the table except Ukraine's sovereignty. That leaves a lot to be negotiated because Russia, frankly, while it may respect the formal sovereignty of Ukraine, has long wanted full political control over Ukraine and it has sought disarmament of Ukraine in addition to direct occupation of the territories it already controls and others that it claims. So Europe is not going to be there. Ukraine, according to Zelenskyy, is not taking part in these talks, though he will be visiting Saudi Arabia on a bilateral visit next week as well. So a lot is in the air. But there is certainly a sense of gloom and desperation in the air in Munich because many European officials are afraid that by deciding the fate of Ukraine without them, the US And Russia may also decide the fate of Europe. Many European leaders are vocal, saying that this will not stop at Ukraine. And in parallel to this negotiations in Saudi Arabia, there is also going to be a summit in France on Monday that the French President, Emmanuel Macron, has called to discuss how Europe could respond to this unprecedented security challenge of this new negotiation of Russia and the US About Europe's future.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah. And President Zelenskyy made sure to tell leaders there in Munich that per his conversation with Donald Trump, Europe was not mentioned at all in terms of resolving this war. As you mentioned, this last minute conference is now being planned among European leaders. The United States is hoping that they will take the bulk of planning out and paying for Ukraine's defense. Is there an opportunity you're hearing from Europeans that if the United States may not be a stable ally going forward for Europe, that this may in fact embolden Europe to work together more because that is the message President Zelensky was trying to send yesterday, even saying that the Europeans needed their own military effectively?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Well, there is certainly an understanding. There is certainly a lot of talk about this. One official here told Me, you know, we have had 10 years of wake up calls. The next wake up call could be an air raid siren. But for Europe, but the question is capacity. And the question is also political cohesion. You know, the biggest country in Europe, Germany, is in the middle of an election campaign, will not have a government for the next two months. France has a minority government. And a lot of the military investments that had to be made over the last several years haven't been made. So really, it's time for dramatic action for Europe. If some officials here say, you know, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu, and Europe does not want to end up on the menu.

[Bianna Golodryga]

I want to get to the tensions unfolding now between the United States and Germany in particular in just a moment. But sticking with the change in policy between President Biden, who has long said that no decisions about Ukraine will be made without Ukraine, to where Donald Trump, viewing this situation and when asked if Ukraine is an equal partner here in these talks, he said he didn't know how to answer that question. So why is a meeting potentially between President Trump and Vladimir Putin so alarming for President Zelenskyy?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Well, we don't know yet when and whether this meeting will be held, but it's clear that many officials in the new US Administration believe in spheres of influence between in the rights of great powers control their neighborhoods. You know, we have seen US officials talk about Monroe Doctrine 2.0 for the Americans, for example, for the Americas, for example. And you know, that is a fear for Ukraine. You know, this mantra that nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine is no longer a policy of the United States. It is the policy of European countries.

[Bianna Golodryga]

However, and it was stunning also to see the sharp rebuke from Vice President Vance against European leaders, in particular German leaders, for what he said, not upholding democracy, freedom of speech and not supporting far right parties in the country, even meeting with AfD leaders ahead of the election upcoming and German chancellor calling that election meddling. That could be a whole other segment that we discuss. But I do want to ask you, Yaroslav, about your book, no Love for Country. You were Born in Kyiv. It is a fictional book based in large part on your grandmother's life story between the 1930s and 1950s, when Ukraine was in the midst of one of the deadliest periods in modern history. When I hear Vladimir Putin say things like ending this war is not just about a ceasefire but needing to address, quote, the root causes of conflict, it brings me to what you touch on in this book. Going back so many decades ago where there was this twisted sense that still lives in Vladimir Putin's head about the relationship between Ukraine and Russia and the Soviet Union. Talk to us about that and your grandmother's storyline here.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Well, thank you so much. You know, the root cause of this war is that Vladimir Putin believes that Ukraine is Russia and Ukraine is not entitled to its own identity, its own language and its own history above all. And you know, in this book I'm trying to tell through the story of my grandmother, the story of Ukraine, which is really not well known outside of Ukraine. You know, it was the deadliest place on earth in the middle of the 20th century between the artificial famine orchestrated by Moscow and then the Holocaust and the war. And this famine is denied by Russia. You know, it killed millions and millions of Ukrainians. But the very first thing that happens when Russian troops occupy a Ukrainian town, they demolish the monument to the victims of this famine. And so this clash of narratives is really, really important to understand why this war is going on and why territorial concessions were not necessary ended because the Ukrainians are fighting so bravely and are sacrificing so much right now. Because everyone carries in their genes this memory. We all descend from people who survived this terrible period. And the Ukrainians know that if they allow Russia to take over Ukraine again, the very same atrocities of the past will be repeated because many Russian officials are very open about their genocidal plans.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah, a beautiful tribute to your grandmother. I know you spent a lot of time trying to get old records from your grandmother's life as well. Yaroslav Trofimov, thank you so much for the time. Well, up next on gps, how is all of this playing out in Moscow? We'll find out when we come back. Why choose a sleep number Smart bed. Can I make my site softer? Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?

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[Bianna Golodryga]

I'm CNN Tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service, how to choose the right vpn, whether to trust public wi fi, what to do with those annoying cookie pop ups and more to help me answer these rapid fire questions. I've invited Rachel Toback back to the show. You remember her from our episode about setting and managing your passwords. Rachel is an ethical hacker and the CEO of Social Proof Security, where she helps people and companies keep their data Safe. Listen to CNN's terms of service with me, Claire Duffy, wherever you get your podcasts. President Donald Trump and his foreign policy team continue to upend American foreign policy in Europe, signaling a clear shift away from US Allies and seemingly closer to Russia. In his speech at the Munich Security Conference yesterday, President Zelensky warned of the danger of a Trump Putin friendship.

[Nick Thompson]

Next, Putin will try to get the.

[Bianna Golodryga]

US President standing on Red Square on May 9 this year, not as a.

[Gaith Al Omari]

Respected leader but as a probe to in his own performance. We don't need that.

[Bianna Golodryga]

So how is all of this playing out in Moscow? Joining me now from Munich is Alexander Gabouev, director of the Carnegie Russia Eurasia Center. Sasha, good to see you as always. I would imagine this was a celebratory mood that Russia was in this week and the Kremlin seeing everything that transpired from last week, the prisoner swap, the phone call between President Trump and President Putin, the fact that President Trump said that he trusts Vladimir Putin wants to bring this war to an end, the vice president of the United States getting into spats with European leaders, the defense secretary putting concessions out on the table before awkwardly walking them back. Tell us how this has been viewed in the Kremlin.

[Alexander Gabouev]

Great to see you, Biana. Well, it's indeed like Easter, Hanukkah, Christmas, birthday of Vladimir Putin, and everything is happening in one day. So whatever champagne is not chilled is brought to the fridge and other bottles are on court. It's too early to celebrate. But just the sheer optics of everything, what's transpiring is definitely beneficial for the Kremlin because on one hand, you have a U turn in the US Foreign policy, isolate Russia, make Putin a pariah leader, help to get him get the arrest warrant of International Court of Justice. And like all of that, and on the other hand, you see fracturing in transatlantic support network for Ukraine and the signal that all of these Trumps are sending to Kiev and his friends that Ukraine and the United States are not one team and Team Trump is playing its own game. It's definitely something beneficial even if the talks don't result in the outcome that Vladimir Putin wants for now.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Well, speaking of talks, you heard my conversation with Yaroslav there. And the idea of an upcoming meeting and summit potentially soon between President Trump and President Putin, it's something that President Zelensky has warned against without him in a meeting with him first. How soon do you think we can see a summit between these two men?

[Alexander Gabouev]

We need to be cautious in our estimates, but I would not be surprised if we see the summit by the end of this month.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Oh, wow. And is this because of what you're hearing from sources?

[Alexander Gabouev]

I think. I think that they are pretty optimistic. Well, there are some details to be hammered out, but the Russian approach is not top down. It's not the kind of traditional way that the American foreign policy works, that all of the details before the leaders meet will need to be hammered out and agreed. And then the leaders only give the blessing and discuss the remaining outstanding issues. This time around, the Russians really want an unscripted meeting along the kind of very broad lines that have been agreed. And that it seems to them is something that President Trump wants too.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah, and it seems that every single time President Trump speaks with Vladimir Putin, he echoes his old talking points this time around that he thinks that the Russia should go back into the G8. That is somehow President Biden's fault about bringing up NATO's membership for Ukraine that started this war. When it comes to security guarantees for Ukraine, what is left, what is feasible when you take away troops in the country and when you take away the possibility of NATO membership?

[Alexander Gabouev]

I think that Ukraine has something that is pretty credible and serious and that Russia sees as mortal threat to its desire to dominate Ukraine and subjugate this country to become its subject. And this is a network of bilateral agreements that was orchestrated by President Biden and his team and President Zelensky and NATO leadership that provides Ukraine with long distance packages to create credible deterrent force inside Ukraine, better trade force armed to teeth, with a lot of capabilities that can strike deep inside Russia that would serve as a deterrent. And that's exactly what Russia wants to dismantle as way.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Which makes it all the more curious that it seems that Europe has been completely left out of this negotiation process. Especially if the United States is saying that the bulk of the process and the way should be on the Europeans at hand. We heard from President Zelensky say that according to his own intelligence, he does expect to see some Russian training exercises in Belarus in the coming months and that he views this as a false flag sort of opportunity for Russia to potentially attack a NATO ally. You are dubious about this intelligence. And I'm just wondering, do these things, types of threats and warnings actually work against President Zelensky in Ukraine? Among Europeans.

[Alexander Gabouev]

We don't see serious confirmations about this and usually Western intelligence come up first. And they have been really doing a very good job throughout this campaign in bringing out the information to the public light since they are silent and Ukrainian owned intelligence agencies like the military intelligence or the Service for National Security are silent. I remain somewhat skeptical, but we'll see. I think the partial problem here is that President Zelensky has his finger on an issue. Russia is preparing to mobilize many more people and if the discussions with Trump collapse onward lead to a result that would make Vladimir Putin happy. Russia's plan B is war and Russia believes that Ukraine doesn't have that much time because of its manpower problems.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah, which is why President Zelensky said that their army would have to double in size if they're not admitted into NATO soon. Sasha Gabouv, always good to see you. Thanks so much. Up next on gps, President Trump met with the King of Jordan this week as the region continues to reckon with Trump's proposal to take over Gaza and restore settle Palestinians elsewhere. I'll talk to a former Palestinian official who says Trump's comments may lead to a solution for Gaza. We'll explain. President Trump's proposal to take over Gaza and resettle Palestinians elsewhere has sent shockwaves through the Middle East. The King of Jordan has rejected Trump's plan but met with him this week and attempted to maintain good relations. He looked on as Trump promoted his plan. Now Egypt has also rejected Trump's idea and says it is crafting its own plan for the reconstruction and governance of Gaza that allows Palestinians to remain there. I want to bring in Gaith Al Omari, senior fellow at the Washington Institute. He held various positions in the Palestinian Authority, including as an advisor to the Palestinian negotiating team from 1999 to 2001. GayThank you so much for taking the time today. First, let's begin with the Israel Hamas war because you'll recall President Trump had said that if all hostages were not released, all of them, not just the three that had been crossed of this phase of the deal, that all hell will break loose. And that caused a lot of concern this week. Ultimately, we did see the deal go forward yesterday with the release of three hostages, including one American citizen, and then the return of Palestinian prisoners as well. But now we have Secretary of State Rubio in Israel meeting with the prime minister today and they appear in lockstep in saying that both Hamas must be eliminated and the US once again saying that they will provide 2,000pound bombs to Israel that had been previously frozen by the Biden administration. The prime minister, echoing Trump's language by threatening that Israel will, quote, open the gates of hell if all of the hostages are not returned. Will this type of added pressure from both Israel and the United States together on Hamas help or hurt further in continuing this specific peace deal and hostage release?

[Gaith Al Omari]

I am afraid that it will actually hurt rather than help. And it will hurt actually from two different angles. One is, you know, Hamas, not only because of the threats, but because of the President's idea of taking over Gaza, will find it very, very hard to accept a ceasefire that is predetermined to end both in Hamas's elimination and in the depopulation of Gaza. But it's also creating pressure on the Israeli side in Israel. Netanyahu, right now, the prime has to, on the one hand, he cannot look and seem, you know, less tough than Trump. But on the other hand, there is tremendous pressure among the Israeli public. I believe around 70% of Israelis want the whole cease fire deal to be concluded so that all of the hostages will return. So both Netanyahu and Hamas right now find themselves in a very, very different and much more complicated situation than they did before the President's remarks.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Well, let's talk about the other controversial remarks from the President and that is doubling down on his idea of the US Having control over Gaza, resettling Palestinians to live in Jordan and Egypt. The far right member of the Israeli government, the Finance Minister, Bitzalel Smotrich, said over the weekend that this process should actually start within a matter of weeks. This, of course, as you know, is not only impractical, it's illegal under international law. But President Trump reiterated that, sitting right next to the King of Jordan earlier last week. What did you make of how King Abdullah handled this?

[Gaith Al Omari]

First of all, in terms of King Abdullah, I think he handled it very well. I know for a fact the Jordanians were going into the meeting very concerned, very concerned both about Gaza and bilateral Jordanian, American relations. I think in the end of the day, it went well for Jordan. It went well for Jordan because the King understood that you have to be proactive. So he presented this idea of accepting 2000 Sikh Gazan children for treatment in Jordan. This gave the President a win without compromising Jordan's basic positions. But it only bought time. And right now, the main challenge is what do you do with this time?

[Bianna Golodryga]

So what do you say to those who argue, like Marco Rubio did today in Israel, doubling down on the President's idea, saying, quote, the same tired ideas cannot be repeated as in the past. And if you look the Egyptians, while they may have postponed a meeting between President Trump and President Sisi, you heard that they are trying to put an idea together, a plan together for the day after that would leave Palestinians. What do you make of those who say when Trump makes these kind of threats outside of the box, thinking more action actually gets done?

[Gaith Al Omari]

I actually tend to agree with that. I mean, definitely, as you said earlier, this plan is neither legal nor moral nor practical. However, it did highlight one thing, which is the fact of that there is a vacuum in terms of serious practical ideas. Until now, over the last 15, 16 months of the war, we heard a lot of slogans, but no practical ideas. Now, I think Arab countries believe and feel if there's a fire lit under them. And so we're starting to see very, very robust and very intensive Arab diplomacy. There's going to be a meeting on the 20th in Saudi Arabia by five or six Arab leaders to discuss these ideas. Then a week after that, we're going to have an Arab League summit. And the whole idea here is to come up with a practical, real alternative to what the President is saying, to reconstruct Gaza, but at the same time to keep Gaza at home. It's not simple, though, because it's not only a simple matter of just reconstruction. There are very, very complicated political and security questions that they have to answer.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah. And it's a question of who will govern Gaza at the end of the day. The Prime Minister of Israel has said it's not going to be the Palestinian Authority. Quickly, in the final few seconds, what is Saudi's role in all of this? The President wants normalization and a defense deal between the US And Saudi Arabia, normalization between Israel and Saudi. And they are firm in saying that there should be displacement of Palestinians outside of Gaza.

[Gaith Al Omari]

The Saudi role is going to be central and we see it by the fact that Saudi is convening everyone, etc. The President does want normalization between Israel and Saudi to, you know, cap up his, his Abraham accords. This gives the Saudis a lot of leverage. And the Saudis have been very, very clear they do not want that. Again, however, they have to come up with something practical. And by the way, the Saudis and other Arab countries also don't want to see Hamas governing Gaza. How do you manage? This is going to be the.

[Bianna Golodryga]

That they have, no doubt. Gait Alamari, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

[Gaith Al Omari]

Thank you.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Up next on gps, is America headed towards a constitutional crisis? I'll ask a legal expert when we come back. Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should 1. It's $15 a month. 2. Seriously, it's 15 $15 a month.

[Gaith Al Omari]

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[Gaith Al Omari]

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[Bianna Golodryga]

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[Nick Thompson]

Proven electrolyte blend designed to hydrate better.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Than water.

[Alexander Gabouev]

So you can lose more.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Sweat and raise your game. Gatorade is it in you? In less than a month, President Trump has attempted to freeze all federal grants and loans, ordered the termination of birthright citizenship, taken a sledgehammer to the regulatory state, fired federal workers without a mind to their legal protections, and all but dismantled usaid. Some of these actions have been blocked, at least temporarily, by the courts. But will they continue to be? And if they are, will Trump defy court orders? That would be a constitutional crisis. Joining me now to discuss all of this is Quinta Jurecic, a fellow at the Brookings Institution and a senior editor at Lawfare. Quinta, it is good to see you. So we should note that President Trump in his first term never actually defied a court order. He publicly called, disparaged and personally attacked judges, but he didn't defy their rulings. Why are you concerned that that may not be the case during his second term?

[Quinta Jurecic]

As you say, Trump really abided by the authority of the court during his first term. He would complain, he would post on Twitter about so called judges, but he never tried to outright ignore a court order. This time, though, I think we're seeing a lot of rhetoric that is is deeply concerning around this issue. We have seen Vice President J.D. vance, for example, tweet something that doesn't outright say, but certainly hints that the administration, if it decides that the judiciary is intruding on what Vance referred to as the executive's legitimate power, might simply go its own way and decide to completely set aside an order of the court that would really move us into new territory, not only legally, not only for this administration, but really in the course of American democracy as a whole.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah, and what's shocking about J.D. vance's post, the vice president's post, is that he should know better. He is a Yale Law School graduate. But then we saw others in support of what he said, Senator Tom Cotton, some conservative law professors. And that's really setting the stage for what some believe may be a, a point of ignoring a judge's order because they would like to say in their minds a judge is illegitimate, that they should be disbarred or that they have political bias. Is that a concern that you have?

[Quinta Jurecic]

It certainly seems like, as you say, there was a kind of community of people in the Republican Party on the right, on the far right, that are kind of talking themselves into the this position. And that, I think, is very concerning because that community didn't exist in the same way in the first Trump administration. And so we don't really have a sense of how this might play out. I think the thing that, you know, viewers should keep in mind is that so far, we haven't actually seen this happen. There's been a lot of, you know, incendiary rhetoric, but we haven't seen the administration outright go in front of a court and say, we're not going to do what you say. Instead, we've seen the administration do, you know, in an unusually aggressive fashion, admittedly. But mostly what executive branches are supposed to do in the sense of if they don't like a court order, going before the court and saying, you know, hey, can you please change this, trim this down in some way? We'd like to comply with this, but we have some changes that we'd suggest that you might make. And so, so far, so far, that is what we have seen. I think it would be a different level of crisis if this kind of group were to push forward and try to make the Justice Department outright say we are not going to comply.

[Bianna Golodryga]

I do want to bring up a post from the Wall Street Journal editorial board this week that has been pretty outspoken in calling out some of the president's executive orders. But on this issue in particular, here's what they said. Trump's actions are aggressive, but they aren't an executive Coup. Writing that Mr. Trump's domestic policy decisions so far strike us as falling into three categories. Most rest on strong legal ground. Some are legally debatable. And still others, Mr. Trump appears to be breaking current law deliberately to tee up cases that will then go to the Supreme Court to restore what he considers to be constitutional norms. None of these is a constitutional crisis. What do you make of that argument?

[Quinta Jurecic]

I think it depends on how you define a constitutional crisis. I would argue that we are in one. The administration may not have outright disobeyed the judiciary, but it seems to be moving itself in that direction. And there's another branch of government whose constitutional duties it is riding roughshod over, and that's Congress. I think it's important to understand that when the administration is decides not to send out millions, billions, trillions of dollars of funding that has been appropriated by Congress, that is a direct attack on Congress's constitutional power of the purse, which is the main power that it has under our constitutional structure. And so if you define a crisis as a branch of government not abiding by its constitutional responsibilities, I think we are absolutely seeing that right now in the relationship between the executive and Congress, though it hasn't yet quite come to a head in the relationship between the executive and the judiciary.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Quinta, before I let you go, I do have to ask you about the stunning developments this week here in New York City, where the US Acting attorney in Manhattan resigned after the number two at the DOJ commanded her to dismiss the corruption charges against Mayor Adams. Subsequently, five more prosecutors resigned after she did. Is this a sign of a crisis, in your view, or a sign that the institutions themselves are holding?

[Quinta Jurecic]

In some ways, it's both, but it's certainly a sign of a crisis. You wouldn't expect to see a string of resignations. You know, twice as many people resigned here as did in the Saturday Night Massacre during Watergate. That is really sending out a signal that something is terribly wrong here. And the letter sent by the former acting U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York really says quite clearly, if you read it, I'm being asked to do something that I think is wrong and that is not within my authority. And I think that, you know, it's worth taking this very, very seriously. It may not hit the headlines because of how many crazy things are happening right now, but it's deeply concerning in terms of what's happening within the Justice Department.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah. And this we should note. US Attorney is not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination. She's part of the Federalist Society. She clerked for Justice Scalia. A really big story unfolding here in New York State. Thank you so much, Quinta. Appreciate the time. Well, Elon Musk is reshaping the federal government like no private citizen has before, gutting agencies and changing the way the government works. What to make of this? I will ask the CEO of the Atlantic when we come back. The world's richest man has, in the past month, become one of the most powerful government figures in Washington, if not the world, as head of the Department of government efficiency. Musk is attempting to shut down vast swaths of the American government. In his own words, he wants to, quote, delete entire agencies. He's already essentially doing that with usaid. On Tuesday, he held court with the press in the Oval Office alongside his son X and, oh, yes, the President too. So what to make of all of this? Joining me now is Nick Thompson, CEO of the Atlantic. Nick, it's always good to see you. So, before we get to the Elon of it all, I do want to ask you about something that we saw this week on Friday in Munich. At the Munich Security Conference, we saw Vice President Vance delivery a speech before European leaders and really admonish the European leaders in this room for what he viewed as losing its democratic values, especially as it relates to freedom of speech. And I'm wondering, as the CEO of a large US Media company, if you found that a bit hypocritical this week, especially when we saw the President ban an AP reporter from an Oval Office event, because AP would not call the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf America.

[Nick Thompson]

Yeah, I think there is extreme hypocrisy there. It is absolutely true. The President and the vice President have changed the balance in some ways, the way conversation works in America and on social media platforms. We've seen this with Elon Musk, where the balance has shifted from trust and safety to what they call free speech, which is more openness, less trust and safety. There's a trade off. But at the same time, the First Amendment has a number of provisions, including freedom of the press. And what we've seen from this administration has been a real push on that. Threatening news organizations, threatening specific reporters who do not go along with the linguistic preferences of the United States government, threatening journalism shield laws. So there has been a lot of pressure on one of the most important principles of the First Amendment, which is freedom of the press.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And the concern and the consequence is, what if this continues?

[Nick Thompson]

Well, American democracy, we are a very special country, and we are a very special country. One reason for that is because we have a free press that can write whatever it wants without fear or favor. That is one of the key linchpins of democracy, because if the government does something wrong, the press is there to say, you know, they did something wrong, and then the people can understand. It's kind of how the system works. It's one of the magical things that the founding Fathers set up up. If you get rid of that and if you push on that and you say, wait, hold on, if you write something critical to the United States government. There will be consequences. If you don't agree with what we say, there will be consequences. We might take away your broadcast license. We might do something worse if that happens. Civil Discourse weekends. The American public has less light on what is going on in the government. There are really important consequences to how this magical country functions if we don't have real freedom of the press.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And a lot has been written by your own publication about what Elon Musk has been doing this past month. Really essentially, in a way, unilaterally holding carte blanche over the US Government with his doge operation, the Department of Government Efficiency. I think many people had essentially thought that was going to be sort of a blue ribbon commission type organization that is more centralized, symbolic, good on a campaign trail. Not really effective once the President's in office. That hasn't been the case.

[Nick Thompson]

No, it hasn't.

[Bianna Golodryga]

You've known Elon Musk and covered him for quite a while. What do you think is motivating him here?

[Nick Thompson]

I think that a lot of it is genuine motivation. He really does think the government will be better if it is smaller, if it is shrunk, if there are fewer referees on the field, as he said. In fact, you know, the most telling thing I think that he said in the past two weeks was in his speech in Dubai, where he actually is calm and controlled. It's very different from the Elon that you see on Twitter. And he said, what we're trying to do is we feel like there are too many referees on the field. It's like a sporting event where the players can't pass to each other because the referees keep getting in the way. And one way to look at that is sort of the generous way, which is to say, oh, you know, government, really, there are a lot of referees on the field. The other is, wait a second, you look a little deeper. I think what he's saying is that he likes being the only referee, right? He likes anybody who might make a different call. A linesman who might differ from him, a civil service agent who might disagree with what he thinks the right thing is. He wants to sideline them all. And so I think what Musk kind of wants is he wants to be the referee of the world, the referee of the government, the referee of the new AI systems that we are building. That is his objective. So I thought that very small moment was quite telling for all of them. This drama and all this exchange that.

[Bianna Golodryga]

He'S bringing and what he's bringing is really unprecedented. The speed at which it is happening here with the usa.

[Nick Thompson]

I mean, it's astonishing, right? I mean, Republican Congress has said, you know, we're going to do this, we're going to change usaid. They've been saying it for years. They have been completely unable to do it right. There are lots of obstacles and checks and balances. And Musk has come in through brute force, now being checked by the courts, but has come in and changed a lot very rapidly. I mean, that is one of his superpowers, as we saw at Twitter, or one of his supervillain powers, according to his critics. He comes in and he dramatically changes things very fast.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah, we just talked about the courts in the segment prior to this and concerned that we could be possibly heading to a constitutional crisis if at some point the administration doesn't follow orders from judges. A group of Democratic state attorney generals have sued Elon Musk and his Doge department, accusing Musk of, quote, seemingly limitless and unchecked power over the federal government's affairs in violation of the Constitution. What has his approach in the past been to courts and their rulings?

[Nick Thompson]

Well, he is, he loves to use the courts. He is, you know, very aggressive in suing his critics and, you know, using the courts against his critics. He generally, though, if you have an order, he will do his best to fight back against it. He will hire the best lawyers and he will try to defeat, sometimes he will fight the regulators who are trying to push orders on him. But I don't think there has ever been a moment where he has had quite as much power and where if he defied a court order, there could be quite the same consequences. And given speed, velocity and ferocity, what he's now in which he's now acting, we can't be sure of anything that's going to happen.

[Bianna Golodryga]

How long do you think this relationship lasts between the two of them?

[Nick Thompson]

President Elon Musk, you've seen some pressure, you've seen some friction. I think it's going to last for, let's just say this, a lot more will happen before the relationship ruptures.

[Bianna Golodryga]

The president seems to be happy with what he's doing thus far. Nick Thompson, thank you so much.

[Nick Thompson]

Thank you so much, Brianna.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Well, that is it for today. Thank you all for being a part of Fareed Zakaria GPS this week. Fareed, we'll be back next week. This week on the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish. My guest is Larry Wilmore. He's a writer and producer who's worked on some of the most successful shows of the century. In Living Color, the Bernie Mac show, the Daily Show, Black Ish, Insecure. We're just naming a few. But in his heart, he's still a comedian. I'm getting back into doing standup again, which I really haven't done full time in a while, so. What? Wait, is that good? Like, you're going? You're doing open mics? I'm going up Saturday night. I'm gonna start working on a new hour. Yeah. So it's a little scary. Audie, don't get me wrong. I can imagine. Evan, what do you think is pulling at your chest here?

[Nick Thompson]

I feel like I have to say something.

[Bianna Golodryga]

I can't stay silent anymore about just the world that I'm in. Listen to the assignment with me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast app.