RM

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud

Episode: RM (Kim Namjoon)
Date: July 22, 2026
Host: Bella Freud
Guest: RM (BTS leader, solo artist, art enthusiast)

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Episode Overview

In this intimate episode, Bella Freud welcomes RM (Kim Namjoon), leader of BTS and acclaimed solo artist, to discuss the complex interplay between fashion, identity, art, and leadership. The conversation covers RM’s personal philosophy around style, his experiences with fame, the impact of literature and art on his inner life, and the perpetual balancing act between public persona and private authenticity. Throughout, the tone is warm, philosophical, and deeply reflective, providing a rare glimpse into the thoughtful mind behind a cultural phenomenon.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Style as Self-Expression and Self-Protection

• RM’s Outfit: RM describes wearing new season Prada, a favorite because of its muted colors and the influence of Raf Simons, emphasizing natural dyeing and comfort.
  “These days I'm really counting on my stylist which is my friend...I feel really natural and myself.” (01:41)

• Clothing as Liberation:
  Bella comments on the power of clothes to free one from self-consciousness, setting the tone for deeper exploration. (02:27)

2. Humility, Fame, and Balance

• On Never Aspiring to Fame: RM reflects on his humility and intention as an artist: “Maybe it's not that I chose. Somebody gave this thing to me...it should be rooted from where you are right now and what you are going through in your actual life.” (03:02–04:31)

• Navigating Pop Culture’s Demands:
  He discusses the struggle to balance influence with staying true to personal inspiration: “I have to keep the balance...try to keep the distance from the numbers and impact itself and try to get close to the nature and all those kind of things that are not related to this fast...era.” (04:31–05:44)

• Impact of Digital Life:
  The fast-moving digital culture makes him anxious, making it challenging to remain grounded.
  “Not to be interrupted by all those shorts and reels and clips. It makes me really nervous...a biggest fear for those waves coming through so fast.” (05:44–06:27)

3. Family and the Formation of Taste

• Parental Influences:
  RM shares that his father’s artistic ambitions (thwarted by poverty) and his mother’s emphasis on stability provided a “clock pin” effect, teaching him balance.
  “I was like a clock pin going back and forth with my father and Mother. So I think I've learned the balance from my parents.” (07:49)

4. Stendhal Syndrome & Powerful Encounters with Art and Fashion

• First Fashion ‘Overwhelm’:
  RM credits Rick Owens’ garments for his first overwhelming emotional reaction to fashion (a “Stendhal Syndrome” for clothes):
  “That was the first time that I've got...like a Stendhal syndrome for clothes. And I first realized that, oh, a color called black could be various like this. And I was, I got shocked.” (08:57–09:05)

• On Rick Owens and Resonant Quotes: RM recalls a quote from Rick Owens (a previous Fashion Neurosis guest) about how non-fashion people may perceive fashion as “hot,” noting its viral status. (10:47)

5. Identity, Privacy, and the Performative Self

• The Public vs. Private self:
  “I describe it as like a life of an undercover. It's like you be a thief at night and act like a police officer at daytime.” (13:28) He reflects on the contradictions of celebrity and the ongoing struggle to know how much to hide or reveal.

• Art and Music as Authentic Expression:
  “The best way to reveal your real, real things is the art itself...I'm trying to reveal my bad things and demons I want to spit out as music.” (15:13)

6. Literary Influences and the Power of Books

• On First Life-Changing Book:
  RM names Demian by Hermann Hesse for helping him understand jealousy and human complexity.
  “I discovered the essence and the reality of my...jealousy.” (18:57–19:21)

• Reading as a Lost Ritual:
  He laments the difficulty of reading in the age of social media and distractions.
  “It's getting really harder and harder to watch cinemas and read books these days...” (17:34)

7. Art, Museums, and Discovery

• First Art Encounter:
  Visiting a museum on tour (prompted by BTS’s V), RM was captivated by Monet and Van Gogh, calling Impressionism the gateway to art appreciation: “It was literally the first time to...look at their actual paintings. And I think impressionism is still the...most wide open entrance for all...in the art world.” (35:52)

• On Ugo Rondinoni:
  RM appreciates contemporary art for its transformative effect, describing how Rondinoni’s painted rocks change his perception of nature.
  “It twisted...your perception to the world...when I see the actual mountains and rocks. So I just love that.” (38:41)

8. Fashion Rituals and ‘Airport Fashion’

• On Airport Fashion:
  RM nostalgically laughs at his early “Golf Wang” phase, pink socks and all, noting one’s “hated” looks often become endearing over time.
  “If you hate something too much, then you kind of like it...Ironically, it's my favorite. The pink socks.” (41:17)

9. Nature, Friends, and Coping with Anxiety

• Korean Nature as Solace:
  RM deeply values mountains, rivers, and the sea—and openly discusses his reliance on friends, and the challenge of solitude.
  “Nature is always the best therapist...they are my teachers and therapists and mostly the friends.” (41:31)

• On Embracing Flaws:
  “Being strong starts from unmeeting your weakness and your defects and flaws. I have too many flaws.” (44:07)

10. The Burden and Philosophy of Leadership

• Evolving as a Leader:
  RM reflects on changing his leadership style as BTS matured, using the “closing the window” metaphor: “Everybody is lying on the couch and the window is open and it's too cold, so somebody has to close it...I think that's what a leader does for every part of the team.” (22:32–24:43)

• Value of Validation:
  “When they sometimes just tell me that, ‘I know your efforts, and I'm really happy to have a leader like you’, all those stress...are gone.” (26:00)

11. Making of the Solo Album & Artistic Collaborations

• On ‘Right Place, Wrong Person’ & Working with Wing Sha:
  RM discusses working with legendary photographer Wing Sha, drawing inspiration from Wong Kar Wai’s cinematic style: “All I focused was just to be more chill and not be not too nervous all the times...So there was always some kind of tensions with my whole life and I just tried to loosen it.” (27:09–30:02)

• Album Themes of Alienation:
  “Most of the people could think themselves like that...like, when you are in a company and you're like...Am I the only one who thinks like this or who acts like this?” (32:20)

12. Korean Punk and Musical Recommendations

• Recommends ‘No Brain’:
  For fans of punk like Kim Gordon, RM suggests Korean band No Brain and artist Kim Chan Won as equivalents in spirit. (34:29–35:10)

13. Subtlety, Certainty, and Artistic Evolution

• On ‘Arirang’ Album & Uniformity:
  BTS’s latest album visuals communicate subtle confidence and individuality, despite inner confusion: “We wanted to be very straight forward but we failed. But we did know that we were going to fail. That was maybe the place that the subtlety comes from...I'm still very confused.” (46:49)

• On Discipline and Control:
  RM discusses his “control freak” tendencies and the need to let go, thanks to a friend’s advice on living “the life of an undercover.”
  “Just don't try to combine it together. I think that's where your insecurity comes from and that helped me really much.” (49:36–53:53)

14. Love, Duality, and Attraction

• What Attracts RM:
  He’s drawn to people with duality—those who are serious yet humorous. “If somebody could be very, very serious but very, very ridiculous and humorous at the same time, maybe I think I might fall in love with that person.” (54:11)

• Respecting Individual Style:
  RM’s attitude to a partner’s fashion has softened over time; he values genuine self-expression.
  “As I got a little bit older, I've learned how to really, really respect somebody's taste and a way of expressing themselves.” (55:41)

15. Normality and Rituals for Grounding

• On Seeking Normalcy:
  RM describes his compulsion with the word ‘normal’ and the futility of chasing it, realizing normality retreats the more he obsesses over it.
  “As I got so obsessed with it...it just runs away from me even more...I'm trying to stop thinking about normality.” (58:00)

• The Creative Process:
  RM explains the collaborative effort behind his newest album, highlighting teamwork and inspiration from producers like El Guincho (for the song “Hooligan”).
  “The credit is, I think I did such a small part of for this album because the team itself got so much bigger than before....I've learned so much through the process of making the album and I think I could do better when it comes back to my solo album the next.” (61:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Rick Owens and Fashion as Art
  “A color called black could be various like this. And I was, I got shocked.” (09:06)
• On Contradictions of Identity
  “It's all about the contradictions and dualities. So I'm still fighting with all those contradictions – how much should I reveal myself to the others...?” (13:28)
• On Leadership and Courage
  “If one single person has to stand up and get off the couch and walk a few steps to close the door, then I think that's what a leader does for every part of the team.” (24:43)
• On Living Life ‘Undercover’
  “My friend told me, I just hope you live the life of an undercover, like, even more...don’t try to combine it together.” (53:53)
• On Embracing Weakness
  “Being strong starts from unmeeting your weakness and your defects and flaws. I have too many flaws.” (44:07)
• On Attraction and Duality
  “I kind of want to see the contradictionary image from somebody...I might fall in love with that person.” (54:11)
• On Normalcy
  “I am living, like, a strange life, but as I got...obsessed with...‘oh, I want to be like a normal person’...I think it just runs away from me even more.” (58:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:41] RM on personal style and Prada
• [03:02] Humility, fame, and artistic intent
• [08:57] Stendhal syndrome moment: discovering Rick Owens
• [13:28] The undercover life & navigating identity
• [17:34] The challenges of reading and attention in the digital era
• [18:57] ‘Demian’ and understanding jealousy
• [22:32] Leadership metaphors and evolving dynamics in BTS
• [27:09] Working on ‘Right Place, Wrong Person’ with Wing Sha
• [32:20] Modern loneliness and the outsider feeling
• [34:29] RM recommends No Brain and Kim Chan Won
• [39:32] Airport fashion nostalgia
• [44:07] Embracing flaws and the paradox of strength
• [46:49] Subtlety, confusion, and artistic honesty in BTS’ latest album
• [49:36] Self-discipline vs. self-compassion
• [54:11] On duality in attraction and respect for others’ style
• [58:00] Obsessing over normality
• [61:08] Behind the making of “Hooligan” and collaborative process

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Final Note

The episode offers a compelling meditation on modern identity, artistic evolution, and the complexities of fame as seen through the lens of fashion. RM’s thoughtful, poetic honesty—guided by Freud’s gentle, probing presence—makes for a rare and rewarding exploration of both outer style and inner substance.

Transcript

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[Bella Freud]

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

RM thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. And it's really nice and comfy here.

[Bella Freud]

Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

So this is the new season of Prada. It's also one of my favorite brand and yeah, you know, leading by Raf Simmons and he's also my favorite. And like to be honest, I'm really these days I'm really counting on my stylist which is my friend Shout out to Kim and he recommended this shirt because usually I really like this kind of like muted and bleached, you know, like dying from the like natural elements. So with this color I feel really natural and myself.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, it's such an important thing that clothes, they have the power to really free you from self consciousness sometimes. And you're the leader of bts, one of the biggest bands of all time and you've sold over 40 million albums. The only band since the Beatles to have three number one albums in a year. And you have a humility that's not associated normally with pop music. And I wondered why that's important to you.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I think I never had a wish like to be this big because I always wanted to have such influence to, you know, when you become like an artist or influencer then sometimes you really want to reach as many as you can. So when you are in the middle of the pop music industry particularly, it feels really easy to be just interrupt and to be feeling like you have to make people happy and you have to do on the charts and you're in the mainstream. So you should keep your influence and impact by the numbers and stuff. But why I chose this thing. No, maybe it's not that I chose. Somebody gave this thing to me. And if there's a reason, then

[Nicole Phelps]

I

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

have a belief that it should be still starting from the. Like somewhere else. Not like you're trying to give people like something. It should be rooted from where you are right now and what you are going through in your actual life and the influences, the inspirations you're having from the life itself. So I think it's all about balance. So, you know, now I'm in the middle of the pop industry, so I have to keep the balance. Like try to keep the distance from the numbers and impact itself and try to get close to the nature and all those kind of things that are not related to this. Fast. Such a fast era.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. So you can stay connected to the idea that is your inspiration.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes. Because as a young man, I'm 31, by the way. It is really not that easy to be. Not to be interrupted by all those shorts and reels and clips.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

It makes me really nervous and keep making me feel like I have to do something like every day, every time I have to leave something, but it's gone so fast. So I have a. Like a. I have my biggest fear for those waves coming through so fast.

[Bella Freud]

God, it's a real mantle that you're wearing. And was fashion a thing in your home? And I wondered if anyone in your family was there, Anyone whose style influenced you.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

My father wanted to be. Wanted to be like a cartoon artist. I don't know what it is called in English. He wanted to draw cartoons. But at that time in Korea we were really poor and we got nothing. So my grandmother stopped him from what he really wanted to do. And my mother was a teacher. And so I think my father had some such craving and eager for something else except studies and jobs and stuff. So he was. He was really quite supportive from. For what I was trying to do, which is music.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

And my mother, she was really always trying to give me the stability and telling me not to challenge too much, just be in the safe zone. And I was like a small. Like a clock pin going back and forth with my father and Mother. So I think I've learned the balance from my parents. And they were, they were such great parents to me.

[Bella Freud]

Because you've described experiencing Stendhal syndrome where looking at certain works of art and feeling overwhelmed by the intensity of what you see. And I wondered if you'd ever had those kind of intense and extreme reactions to any fashion.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I still remember when I first looked at the clothes of Rick Owens.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

And he was also in fashion neurosis. I know because I watched it. And so there was a store in Seoul, but it's gone right now, maybe because of the COVID but I Remember like in2014 or 15, I got no money. I couldn't afford any piece of Rick. But I still remember when I first entered the store of Rick Owens in Seoul. So there was a big sculpture of him, of course, and all those like black waves and darkness of his world and the silhouettes, they were really elegant. And I think that was the first time that I've got like such like a, like a stand on syndrome for clothes. And I first realized that, oh, a color called black could be various like this. And I was, I got shocked.

[Bella Freud]

That's such a great description because he's just so evocative and everything he does is so provocative and also so moving really, isn't it? I. Yeah, that must have been amazing experience.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I still love his clothes and of course his words. One of my favorite quote from his fashion neurosis was that, you know, it went viral. Like maybe like the people who don't care about fashion, it's just, it's their, it's. I mean, fashion is not their priorities and it could be hot. Yeah, I love that quote.

[Bella Freud]

I know. He's so great. I'm so glad you enjoyed that. It was my first. He was my first guest and he was like a talisman. So it's lovely that he comes back into our conversation.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

He is amazing.

[Nicole Phelps]

Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, global fashion news and features director at Vogue and co host of the Run through podcast. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all out access pass into the world of Vogue. On Tuesdays, join me as I interview influential designers like Calvin Klein, Rachel Scott and Simone Bellotti. On Thursdays, join Chloe Mel, head of editorial content at Vogue US and Choma Nadi, British Vogue's head of editorial content as they explore fashion through the lens of culture with guests like Doja Cat and Margot Robbie. Listen and watch the Run through with Vogue. Wherever you get your podcasts and Vogue's YouTube channel,

[Esteed Herndon]

there's a civil war happening in the Democratic Party. And if there's one place that that's playing out most clearly, it's in Michigan.

[Ryan Reynolds]

A crucial Senate primary battle in Michigan

[Bella Freud]

that could determine control of Congress in November.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Congresswoman Haley Stevens and Abdul El Sayed, a progressive Democrat and a moderate Democrat.

[Esteed Herndon]

In the end, it all comes down to the dreaded E word electability. But in Michigan, one candidate is trying to turn the electability concept to on its head.

[Political Analyst]

If we think that voters walk around asking, where do I sit? On some theoretical left right spectrum, then in theory, the bulk of the voters are somewhere in the middle. The problem though, is that that model hasn't really accurately predicted our politics for a very long time. If Michiganders wanted moderate, why would they have elected Donald Trump twice?

[Esteed Herndon]

Dr. Abdul El Sayed is making the progressive case for America first, and he's trying to settle the Democrats ideological battle in the process.

[Political Analyst]

This is about the many versus the money.

[Esteed Herndon]

I'm Esteed Herndon and this is America. Actually, catch us Every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast.

[Bella Freud]

And being visible from such a young age, how much of your identity do you hide or reveal through what you wear?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I describe it as like a life of an undercover. It's like you be a thief at night and act like a police officer at daytime. In the daytime. And I think I had a tough time for long to just admit it because when I was in my twenties, I thought that I should have an edge and I should be defined and described as just like one edge. But as time passed by and I got to realize that a human being and an identity could be really, it's always like so, so much of a complex and complicated and it was all about the contradictions and dualities. So I'm still fighting with all those contradictions that how much should I reveal myself to the others, to the public? Or how much should I hide my privacy? Or, you know, like, I'm still. I'm still figuring out, like, what to show and what to hide.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

But I think the best way to reveal your real, real things is the art itself. For me, it's music. So I'm trying to reveal my bad things and demons I want to spit out as music.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. I suppose that's what people can really relate to as well, because there is no such thing as a completely pure person. It's such a comforting thing to hear that described in music.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes. It's amazing that, you know, when we see the great artists, their personal story could be universal. I think that's the beauty of an art when it comes to a painter, a sculptor or a fashion designer, architect, novelist, musician. Their personal histories and their ways of dealing with their own trials and hardships in their lives. But all we could witness is their results and their final pieces of their digestion. And I think that is so beautiful to watch. And I always wanted to be someone like that.

[Bella Freud]

Well, you are. I mean, you seem.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I'm trying.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. I suppose that is the most. The difference maker is that we try and continue. You know, that's the thing that drives us forward. And you come across as a very thoughtful person and you cite a lot of literary influences from writers like including George Orwell and Murakami and even Carl Jung. And I wondered what was the first book that changed your life?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I think, well, just to add, I mean, I think I read much more when I was younger and all those social media keeps making me not to read books. It's getting really harder and harder to watch cinemas and read books these days because I feel like bored sometimes. I could watch the movies on Netflix and we could always stop. So these days, sometimes it feels like a luxury to go to a theater and make our phone to an airplane mode.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

And just to be just leaded by a single director's intentions and artistry. It's a really, really. It's becoming more rarer and rarer experience these days. So I think my first book, like Stengel syndrome was for books. I think it was Damien if It's Right, by Harman Hesse.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes. And because I think I discovered the essence and the reality of my. What do we call it? Like, jealousy.

[Bella Freud]

So interesting. Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Because, you know, Damian is being described like a perfect human being, very ideal type of human being. And the phrases. The start was really powerful, like about the bird and the egg, about the Abraxas. So I think I've read it over like four or five times.

[Bella Freud]

Really?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Gosh, When I was young, I think I should read it again because.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, I want to read it now. You're describing.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Felt like for me, felt like a school life at that time. The bad feelings and jealousy I have for the kids, the friends I have in my class, like very tall, very handsome, very smart or like, you know, very good at sports, who's always popular from the girls. So I could reflect on my real life. Even though if I was a teenager at that time. Yeah, I remember that.

[Bella Freud]

It's such a good book to have found because jealousy is. Can be such a thwarting and crushing feeling and it's I remember my shrink saying to me, I was talking about feeling how bad I felt to feel competitive with someone. And he said, well, you can treat it as a game and to read something at that young age. So kind of philosophical and also that it's actually not that bad to feel jealous. It's part of finding out what you can handle. It seems an amazing book. How did you find that book?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

It was being treated like a classic and very, very recommended by the parents and teachers. So I think my parents always took me to the city library every weekend and I think that's one of the best things that a parent, like parents could do to their kids. So they just naturally gave me the chance to reach all those great answers and interesting results of the Ancestors.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. God, yes. Because you have the demeanor of a man with the burden of leadership and how to use his power in a conscientious way. And I wondered, how do you deal with the loneliness that comes with being a leader?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

It's still hard because for. Because I was the first the member of the team. The band and the label did give me a lot of burden to put the team together as a team. And we had such different backgrounds from different cities and different tastes, different dreams. So I think I was really, Like, overwhelming or very like a powerful type of, like, bossy type of leader for the first, like, eight, nine years. But as the team got bigger and they have their own names and careers, it just didn't work out anymore. So, of course, I mean, they grew up a lot also. So after that, I've changed the way to communicate. And I think a leader is just like this. For example, everybody is lying on the couch and the window is open and it's too cold, so somebody has to close it, but nobody wants to because it's too comfy here, lying on the couch. It's so annoying. If one single person has to stand up and get off the couch and walk a few steps to close the door, then I think that's what a leader does for every part of the team. That's all.

[Bella Freud]

That's a huge thing, isn't it?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

It is a huge thing for some situations.

[Bella Freud]

I suppose you, by getting up to close the window, you risk losing your place on the cosy couch.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

And

[Bella Freud]

it is the act of courage and confidence as well.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

So I think it's basically really just annoying to be a leader, but it's like, I just couldn't let anybody do it because I was like, if somebody has to do it, then it should be me. And Because I just can't watch somebody else just doing it. And if it's not working out as I expected, then I could be more stressed out. So I think that's why. And when they sometimes just tell me that, I know your efforts, and I'm really happy to have a leader like you. And all those stress, they're gone. So that's the beauty of the team.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Well, you're clearly very good at it because it's.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes. It's been 15 years I have been living with them, and I spent half of my life literally, with the six members. By the way, we have seven members in the team.

[Bella Freud]

Yes.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Usually it's four, so. But we're seven.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, gosh.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

The lucky number.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

So it's a lot.

[Bella Freud]

It's wonderful because for your solo album, right Place, Wrong Person, you worked with Wing Sha.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes.

[Bella Freud]

The legendary stills photographer who worked with Wong Kar Wai and his lighting techniques and framing. They propose you as an ordinary individual, but clearly an exceptional person. And in fashion, everyone's obsessed with A Mood for Love. And it's such a romantic, melancholy choice. And are those introspective moods somewhere you feel comfortable?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yeah. That's my favorite album so far because that's my most recent album. But thanks for noticing, by the way.

[Bella Freud]

It's so beautiful. The photographs and you. Sorry to interrupt you, Gary.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I was really trying to get away from where I was because just by the excuse of that, I'm too busy just doing my role and doing all those schedules. I just realized that I'm too lazy these days for digging stuff and studying all those great art world outside. And when I was working on the album right before the military, I just tried to get away as far as I could. And Wing Shot, of course, everybody loves Wong Kawi's movies. And it's really interesting that even the Gen Z's and the Alphas there are lots of fans of Wong Kawi still. So I think it's proving that he built such an like, his own original world by himself. And all I focused was just to be more chill and not be not too nervous all the times, because being a leader of the team and the pop industry, they gave me a lot of. But it also. They took many things from me. So the one thing was that I was always like this, like, stuck in. I have to do this very well. I want to do this really good. I have to do my best all the time. So there was always some kind of tensions with my whole life and I just tried to loosen it. And me and my team thought that Wingsha would be like, a wonderful. Artist who could lead me to another world.

[Bella Freud]

Wow.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Because he always captures the. I think he has such, like, really sensitive, like, setups for those frames and the objects, but when he grabbed the camera, it feels like he just does it really rough and just in a second.

[Bella Freud]

Really?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Gosh, yes. So it was really new and a fresh experience for me to work with him with a. With a bald hair. Yeah.

[Bella Freud]

I mean, they're so. They're so striking. And that picture of you in a pool of light is just. It's like he's able to show more of you than maybe you might care to reveal, you know, with your privacy. But he. To see those pictures was very. I felt that I learned something more about you to look at them. There was such a depth to them and.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Oh, that's really wonderful to hear.

[Bella Freud]

Thank you.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

He will also like it.

[Bella Freud]

I mean, it seemed like a meeting of spirit and creative kind of.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

It was an old hotel, like, dumped. Really? Yes. And it's just. I think it's just being used like a place for location, for shootings these days, because I think it's on sale, the building, but I think it's not sold yet. So it was really like a strange place, like, backroom God. So I think he's a veteran, so he captured maybe the blurry concept or the thing that I want to deliver by the. In the name of. Title. In the title of Right place. Wrong person.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Because I think in 2026, most of the people could think themselves like that. Like, when you are in a company and you're like. You feel like you're the only wrong person. Am I the only one who thinks like this or who acts like this? I think everyone may have an experience of feeling like he or she is a wrong person in a right place or a right person in a wrong place.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. Feeling the outsider is a thing you hear a lot of people talking about

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

in terms of loneliness. You said it's getting more connected and connected by the phones and the media. But it's the contradiction that people with depression and loneliness are getting lot and lot these days.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah, it is. And you're constantly surprising in your artistic references. And I noticed you had Kim Gordon's Bye Bye playing on one of your Instagram posts. And I love that she's the.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I know. She was also on Fashion Nurses.

[Bella Freud]

Yes, she was.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

And I think she's the. And everyone knows she's the coolest. Grandmother in the world.

[Bella Freud]

I know she is.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I don't want to call her a grandma, but it's. She's the coolest.

[Bella Freud]

Is. Is it like. Cause I love that. Her music, that sort of punk music, that was my generation. And if I wanted to listen to a Korean singer who embodied that kind of crackle and tension and sort of thing that she has, who would I. Who would you recommend?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Really, really strong and intense. You should listen to no Brain.

[Bella Freud]

No Brain. Okay.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

You could already feel the.

[Bella Freud]

I get it.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

The band is called no Brain.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

And I think the coolest grandfather who's still ongoing, like Kim Gordon is. His name is Kim Chan Won. And he was also in a band called. Which is translated as the Echoes of Mountain. It's like Sonic Youth of Kim Gordon.

[Bella Freud]

Wow. Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I think it's very psychedelic, but I think he's truly one of the best Korean artists in the history. So I would recommend you no Brain and Kim Cha Won.

[Bella Freud]

Okay. I'm going to check them out. That's exciting. And you're interested in art and you have a sophisticated taste in paintings and sculpture. And I read that you liked Philip Guston and Giacometti, and you have an amazing collection in your home, mostly of Korean art. And I wondered what was the first piece of art that you knew that you liked

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

on tour? When you're doing a tour, sometimes you just can't go out because there are a lot of fans, and it's really hard to just be on your own. So I was in 2018, I was really, really bored, and I got nothing to do. I didn't know anything except, like, shopping or playing games and the room. So just. It just suddenly popped up, and a member of the team called V just proposed me, like, why don't we go to a museum? And I was like, a museum? I am not a museum guy. Isn't it just boring just to go there? But we just went there because we got nothing to do. And I saw the paintings of Monet and Van Gogh and Sarah. And of course, I knew the names of them because I saw them in the book when I was in school, so. But it was literally the first time to just ever, like, physically to have a chance to look at their actual paintings. And I think impassionism is still the biggest, the most widest open entrance for all of the outside people in the art world. So Monet and Gaul and Sarah, they opened me the entrance. And. As I got into it, like, further and further, more and more, my taste became a little bit more of a complex and complicated. So, yeah. Yeah. That's how I just got into it

[Bella Freud]

because in the video you have a little sculptor by Ugo Rondinoni.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Oh, yeah.

[Bella Freud]

Which I love. I once went to his house in New York and he had all these crazy sculptures everywhere. It was really exciting.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I just. I just loved how he just added the colors to the rocks.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

So it just. It twisted. You know, art helps you, like, make it widen for your perception to the world. And after I saw the colors of his frocks and stones, I think he gave me a twist of when I. When I also see the actual mountains and rocks. So I just love that.

[Bella Freud]

Oh, that's great. Gosh. Because you talked about something called airport fashion, and you said people expect me always to wear something new. And I wondered what your favorite airport fashion is at the moment.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Airport fashion.

[Bella Freud]

Such a good expression.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes, they're my favorite airport fashion. I remember when I first see. I think it was like 12 years ago and like 2013 or 14. And I got to know the collective, the crew, our future of Tyler the creator, and Frank Ocean Earl Swashed. And I just got to love their fives. And so I was not very rich at that time, so all I could buy was the T shirt of Golf Wang. And it looks. When I look at the picture of those times, it's ridiculous because I'm wearing, like, pink socks and the donuts for the T shirt, I mean. But I kind of like it because it reminds me of the times that I was really more pure and more younger. And I just got to realize that if you hate something too much, then you kind of like it.

[Bella Freud]

Yes, that's so true.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

If you really hate it, then just got no interest.

[Bella Freud]

That's such a brilliant point. It's always. There's something in there, isn't there?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

So it's ironically, it's my favorite. The pink socks.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah. And are there certain garments that make you feel better when you're feeling low?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I call it in Korea, maybe me and my friends call it, like, the hills. And I have my hills, and they are. I think the nature is always the best therapist. 70% of Korean land is made of mountains, so we could go hiking in every cities. So mountains, rivers, and the sea. We also have sea in Korea, too. So they are my teachers and therapists and mostly the friends. Because I don't like myself sometimes when I feel like I'm too obsessed with the relationships, like, I always ask myself, like, could you just please be on your own for a second? Why do you always need somebody to talk to or to go for a trip? Just. Could you just let yourself be alone for like a week? And because I feel. I sometimes feel. I mostly feel really hard to be. Just do nothing and just be on my own. So. But friends. I think sometimes they are everything. Family and friends and art, of course. Music, architecture, books and art. There are lots of hills that I always have to rely on. And that's the exact point I just finally find myself. Like I'm too weak. I always need those hills.

[Bella Freud]

Yes. I suppose part of being strong is to recognize weakness, or what people call weakness. But it's just a different mode, isn't it? It's a different place. As long as you don't. Speaking for myself. Sink down too far and then there's so far to come up.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes. I think being strong starts from unmeeting your weakness and your defects and flaws. I have too many flaws.

[Bella Freud]

You're quite a hard taskmaster on yourself.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Maybe because I grew up in Korea and Korea is such a very intense country. But that was the. You know, that's where the contradiction comes through because that's the exact point what made Korea this Korea. I love it, but I hate it at the same time.

[Bella Freud]

But I suppose that's also the signature of an artist. I mean, I read this little book about Giacometti once and he. He tortured himself about his work and was always undoing it and fixing it. Yeah. And. But if you can bear to be like that, it's. It's incredible.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes. Sometimes I just don't know any ways. But anyways else. But pushing yourself too hard to the edge, I mean, it's really too much Overwhelming sometimes. But eventually I want to be a different person. I want to get away from this someday.

[Bella Freud]

Well, it's good. Things are phases and you're such a young person and you've done so much and you seem as though when you set your mind to something that you go towards that. So I'm looking forward to seeing your next. On the COVID of your new album, Arirang BTS are all wearing these permutations of an elegant suit that could almost be a uniform. It's glamorous and it suggests the confidence to be subtle. And do you feel like subtlety is a more representative of where you are at the moment?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes, because we had to admit that we are very confused and we just can't reach reach a like a certain very obvious consensus of visions or tastes or dreams. So it was a very confused album. I think. I'm still very confused and I think about subtlety a lot. But yeah, like I just don't really know. It's very subtle but. So we wanted to be very straight forward but we failed. But we did know that we were going to fail. That was maybe the place that the subtlety comes from and those conflicts and. The shakings. It's. I think it's where I am right now in 2026. I want to be very certain and straight but I, I think I always fail.

[Bella Freud]

I mean, I think it's the most incredibly beautiful picture because it seems to have all this. It seems to capture the past of each member. And even though, you know there are certain similarities in the way that you're all dressed, there's this individuality that really shines out of each person and I think it's really beautiful. And I was. I mean, I suppose there is no such thing as certainty in a way. So. And that's got to be good because it means things can evolve and you know, as somebody with a lot of ideas that it's just a bit nerve wracking to feel like that because you come across as someone with immense focus and inner strength. And what does self discipline mean to you and when does it feel strengthening and when does it feel restrictive?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Sometimes I feel like I'm too much of a. Like a control freak for myself. Just like, you must not get lazy. It's not the time to chill out. Like for example, I think the tour is the final. It's one of the final completion of a musician because it's a total package of music performance choreographies and visuals and most importantly the fans. And we have this such communion eye to eye and face to face. But once the tour starts, I was forgetting about this because it's been almost seven years that we haven't been on tour because of the COVID and the military and so it was in a while and the tour started three months ago and I got to realize like I just. Man, I have so much time without. But it's such a. I have such a. I have to use a lot of. Lots of energy to do this. So most of the time, except the actual concert, I'm like exhausted. But I always try to go out. Like for example here I'm in London so I'm planning to go to a Hayward gallery to see the Ernis Kapwa's exhibition and I jump too much and the tour. So my legs, they always hurt so much. So it's really hard to walk, just walk. But I always push myself like yeah, when, when could you see this place or exhibition if it's not now, but. So my self discipline is just always about those two things. Like, am I controlling myself too much? No, it's okay. You could chill out. It's been 15 years. You always waited for this moment. Nah, the world is flowing too fast. You have to push it more now. You have to chill out, bro. Please chill out. So. So a friend of mine told me, I just hope you live the life of an undercover, like, even more. Like push it to the edge even more. Like when you are in the team, just do all those stuff, like a pop star, like a pervert. Like, like you could do it even better and better. You just. You should enjoy it. But when you just come back to your like a private time, just be yourself, say anything, spit it out. I just. You could do both roles even more and more and better and better. Just don't try to combine it together. I think that's where your insecurity comes from and that helped me really much. But it's really hard just to do that sometimes.

[Bella Freud]

It's a great bit of advice. I must so. And is there a particular garment that you find attractive on somebody that you're romantically interested in?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes, I think about it a lot

[Nicole Phelps]

and

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I think I also. I kind of want to see

[Esteed Herndon]

like

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

the contradictionary image from somebody because, like, if somebody could be very, very serious but very, very ridiculous and humorous at the same time, maybe I think I might fall in love with some. That. That person.

[Bella Freud]

That's so nice.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes. Because I don't know why. Maybe if I could be with that kind of person for a long time, I could. I feel like I might have a really, really, like a, like a happy life and happy times with, you know, like such full of content.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Talking about maybe the social issues from like political things and just to like, which beer do you prefer the most? Belgian or German? I prefer Korean. Something like that. Yeah, yeah. I think I find such riz when I see somebody's very, very. Our duality. Yeah, yeah, the duality.

[Bella Freud]

And if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

I think I used to when I was young because I was like, fashion is everything, like clothes. It's the best way to express yourself. But you know, Rick already taught me on fashion neurosis. There was the lesson. And I think as I got a little bit older, I've learned how to really, really respect somebody's taste and a way of expressing themselves. I was talking that I'm. That I'm learning about it, like, years ago, but now I think I could say that I became a person like that even more and more for that part. That is the exact part that I want to become like that even more and more. And fashion is the clothes. It's really important because we just habitually judge other people just by the looks and the fashion.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

So nobody wants to be judged easily. So.

[Bella Freud]

Because on your album Arirang, you have a song called Normal. Yes. And I wondered, what rituals do you have to create normality when there's less of it around in your life? Cause I noticed on your video when you were showing the art that you made your book bed, and I wondered if that was one of your rituals and what rituals you use to ground yourself, to turn off. Right.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

The word. You know, sometimes language or a single word could define your entire world. So just my obsession with a word, normality.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

That was the way. One of the best way to,

[Ryan Reynolds]

like,

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

get away from it. Like, you should be normal. You should just be one of them. Because I am living, like, a strange life, but as I got to, like, obsessed with the, like, oh, I want to be like a normal person. Like, I just want to be one of them. And as I got so obsessed with it and with it, I just. I think it just runs away from me even more.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

So I just. I'm trying to stop thinking about normality.

[Bella Freud]

It's a really good idea.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

You should turn yourself off. You should be private. You should not be noticed. I just. I am trying to get away from it.

[Bella Freud]

I mean, it's the most incredible album. I've really immersed myself in it and been enjoying it so much and. And your process is so rigorous. And the effect is both optimistic and full of freedom and inclusion. And I love the song Hooligan and it has these captivating melodies. And also what sounds like metallic? I mean, I imagine swords clashing like ancient sounds. And how do you bring all these things together? I mean, it's an impossible question to answer as I'm asking it, but it's. So you have all these kind of beautiful things happening, and then the effect is just very, very direct and definite and goes straight into the heart.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

We had a lot of friends and partners who helped us so much. We did the session for an album, like, three, four months, and we stayed in la and we luckily had a chance to work with such great musicians and artists that could help expand our world. And Hooligan is also one of my favorite.

[Bella Freud]

Is it?

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Yes, it's produced by. That's a track by El Guancho and he did a lot of music for Rosalia.

[Bella Freud]

Wow.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

So he's a very, very extraordinary and special sound maker. So he brought all those strange and never heard of sound to the session.

[Bella Freud]

Yeah.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

And I remember Jungkook and Jungkook and J. Hope did make those amazing, like, no brainer top lines for and also, like, came up with the word hooligan. So the credit is, I think I did such a small part of for this album because the team itself got so much bigger than before. And even the other members, they also have done their own solo careers and they grew up so much so I rely. I count on them so much so I'm a very, very lucky person and I've learned so much through the process of making the album and I think I could do better when it comes back to my solo album the next. So, yeah, it's beautiful back and forth, I guess.

[Bella Freud]

Well, thank you so much RM for being on Fashion Neurosis and you. Thank. And it's just been wonderful to listen to you and to connect with everything that you've talked about. It's really.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

It's such an honor to be here. I might be the first Korean.

[Bella Freud]

I am so honored to have you here. And I just think there's something magical that you've done with your music that you managed to touch people from such a huge age range, and that is really a huge talent, the talent of a leader that you clearly manifest. Thank you so much.

[RM (Kim Namjoon)]

Thank you so much. I always wanted to have a podcast experience and I think it's my first time. Really. Yes. I've done thousands of interviews, of magazine videos and, like, music content, but a format of, you know, bumping into somebody's home casa and talking with Bella, which is an amazing person. And this is. This was one of my deepest and the most honest and happiest interview that I've ever done.

[Bella Freud]

Thank you so much. Thank you means so much.