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- [00:02]
A
Support for the show comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. There's a certain kind of person who delights in spending hours figuring something out. For them, this kind of work isn't a waste of time. It's an irresistible pursuit of the aha moment when everything clicks. And that's exactly the kind of thinking that Claude was designed to do. To skip over the easy answers and dig into the deep stuff. Try Claude for free@claude aifashionneurosis and see why problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. When you think of someone with adhd,
- [00:44]
B
who comes to mind? Is it a woman in her 30s?
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A
Just this constant feeling of being too much, you know, too kinetic, too loud, all of the too anything and just really feeling like people got some kind of social rulebook that I never got.
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B
The changing face of adhd. That's this week on Explain It To Me new episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts.
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A
Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Aaron o'. Connor.
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B
Thank you. Bella Freud.
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A
Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
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B
I can tell you with such pleasure. I'm basically wearing you. And I thought about how that might make you feel, but it makes me feel great, so I went with it. And the slogan feels so perfect for today. Women made jeans, Levi's. Men been wearing the same cut for about three decades. There's no veering off there. And then my shoes are a family favorite. They're known as the Mummy Monsters, based off the honey monsters of the 80s, but we love them. They're furry and they're by my lovely friend Roxanna.
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A
God, they're so beautiful. And they look really good with the sock, with the fishnet, the way you push it off balance.
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B
Yeah, it's like, be provocative but make it comfy.
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A
And you're one of the most recognizable models in Britain and your face is even on a first class postage stamp. And you're only in your 40s and you've been a hugely successful fashion icon since you were a teenager. And how do you stay detached so you don't confuse yourself with an image?
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B
That's a corker of a question. I think it's really how you look at it. But starting out as a teenager, you don't really. You're not in possession of your own identity yet. You're not even consciously aware that it is or could be a work in progress. You are just along for the ride. And I suppose what that meant was I found it really easy I was overly adaptable when it came to, I suppose, taking on board other identities, you know, and what that meant for me was there was quite a natural detachment because I was very rarely photographed as myself, you know, there was always some kind of corset or a wig in situ. I got to play really extreme characters and I think even when I was young, I knew I wanted to do them justice. I didn't need to look like myself and be pretty in front of the camera. I think I've always known that. I love stories and I'm a storyteller. I look really authoritative. I'm six foot, which means that I have this so called confidence, as I think perhaps everybody else might see it literally when they look at me, it's quite commanding. But I think the girl inside it was still so fragile, you know, the ego was small and I wasn't quite ready to fill that space. I mean, I feel like it's a whole life's work in progress. But really the reason my career took off, I think, was because I was quite prepared to play these big characters and it was such a departure from the personality that I have naturally. So I was really cool playing the villains or dead people, as a matter of fact, and kind of then allowing them to resurface. And hefty characters like Salvador Dali or Nefertiti or. Would you mind terribly, almost with an apology, flying in this harness. It's only 30ft in the air and you're going to be struck by imaginary lightning. It meant something to me that I could do the hard stuff because it was also a way of, I think, concealing shyness.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Self preservation in the sense that you can literally hide behind these big characters. But somewhere in between, something quite amazing happens. I'm really crap at doing the getting ready part where it's full backstage and not because I don't want to talk to people, but because generally I'm a nervous wreck. You know, if you want to find me, go to a Portaloo or I may be standing next to a catering table. I'm not good with small talk and having lots of people around in limited, intimate space. And that's got nothing to do with my judgment of others other than I recognize it's just something I see simply cannot do. So I suppose my love language is when I get to talk on stage and I find it intensely terrifying. But as soon as I'm up there, it's completely thrilling.
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A
I suppose that's what's good, what cigarettes are good for. It's like you can Just huddle and have a fag. Yeah. And somehow that. That moment that feels so kind of challenging.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You get it's a camaraderie. But of course, if you smoke and if you're allowed to smoke, I mean, you see how it serves a purpose and totally 90s. All the models used to smoke and we could smoke anywhere we wanted, of course.
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B
And I think I used to huddle with the girls, nevertheless.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I went through a really cheap stage of smoking in that I did it. And I don't think I ever bought my own pack. I was one of those people that didn't smoke, but nevertheless smoked quite regularly at different periods.
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A
Yeah, I've been that person as well.
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B
You can't be addicted because you haven't bought your own, you're just having everybody else's.
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A
And you grew up in an Irish working class family in Birmingham and one of the constants in how your beauty is described is aristocratic and does that feel limited? How do you relate to that?
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B
Isn't that hilarious? I feel like I dig my heels in even more and I feel more intensely proud of the environment I grew up in, because I think we were a gang, these sort of Irish Catholic compliant misfits. And all we did was hang out with each other. It was ball games outside, it was football, it was tennis. It was always remembering to come home when the street lamps went on, because you knew that was your curfew, if you like. I don't think we had any notion that of class status. We certainly didn't know that my parents struggled a great deal. We did, however, know that they really did put us first. I mean, it was such a potent world. On the other hand, I mean, talk about being introduced to heavy, deep, visceral, intense imagery. I mean, growing up Catholic, one of the things you look at on Repeat are the 12 stations of the Cross. That's not for the light hearted. So my Intro to Art was all about death and finality. I suppose it was a kind of you sort of. I suppose my childhood was very dramatic and it's a bit long winded. I'm getting there. But what it did is it made me and my sisters these performers and we made up stories constantly about who we were and never really thinking about what we weren't. And the great luxury of growing up hungry for success when you are working class and a lot of things are against you, let's just say, economically is. And I'm very unapologetic about this, it gives you this really steadfast ambition and this, for me personally, the right to want to go out and learn so much more. And it's not that I would ever lay here and be reductive about my childhood. It's quite the opposite. I was blessed with this path of somewhere to go.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And before I really had the language or chance to reflect, I suppose it was so much about kind of going well. I really do have a lot of room here to learn and to do different things. And so I think I will, and I did.
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A
You wrote this brilliant piece for GQ in which you said, I learned very quickly the fastest way to gain acceptance was doing as I was told.
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B
Yes.
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A
And do you remember the first time you actively suppressed yourself to do that?
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B
I mean, compliance is so crushing. But I think the real cruelty around compliance is that you can feel on such a high when you are safe and you have done something and you feel like you've earned the privilege of feeling good and comfortable. And it just so happens that there's this great story flying around, which my parents like to tell a lot still, about me being this sort of. When I was, I suppose, terrible twos. Why do people say that? It's such a weird expression. I was not yet filtered. So I would have these great big fits and rages on the floor and it was kind of feral. And they would just be there and watch me make all of this noise and take up all of this space until one day I just didn't. I think it's going into the school system and knowing that I was going to be doing things like confession, you know, the priest would come to school and we would go and sit in a room with him and we would go through the ritual of prayer. And then when you told your sin, you were given penance. And so it wasn't just a theory of mine, it was a reality. So this good girl. I'm a reformed, former people pleaser. And it's taken me until definitely being in my mid-40s to really work out, not work out why, but to work at burying that and being as disruptive as I can, especially if something really means something to me.
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A
Yeah, that's great to have, you know, to be of. To liberate yourself from something so tyrannical.
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B
Yeah, it does feel like. I mean, it was. It is. And I think what it made me was a very intense, serious child who became very timid and aware of limitations. And I think when we all grow up, there is certainly with my kids now, with my sons, there is this expectation I have of them. And it's the only one. And it's to, you know, have your opinion, express yourself, enunciate your position, all is welcome and you must at all costs feel that that is okay. Unacceptable. Embraced and encouraged. Because all I can do from my own experience is.
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A
Is
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B
the opposite. So I have real dark comedy about a lot of my childhood because I was also really dramatic. You know, I remember going to kids parties and really wanting to join in and play with them. But I suppose I came across as some old lady. I would sit and talk to the mums around the table because they have these really great stories and I would feel instantly comfortable in their company. And then being in their presence, it felt like you were kind of maybe at court, I suppose, and you were in the presence of these ladies, these women. And I suppose for a child that really wanted in but didn't quite know how to always interact with others, that was. That was my place. I was always better talking with grown people, grown ups.
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A
Because how was your transition from girlhood to woman and was your mother supportive through that experience? I didn't have. I don't think my mother had any kind of support going through puberty or any. And she didn't show that to me. And it really noticed. I had a lot of shame about bodily functions just. Or really having a body.
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B
That's right.
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A
And I wondered what that was like for you at that moment in your life.
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B
I think there was a disconnect certainly. And when I came into a room I was noticeable. But what I really wanted to be was. Was avoidable. You know, when you're not in your body, you don't know how to share space and express yourself. You just don't. And I suppose, I mean, I was so late to puberty. My period didn't come till I was just. I think I was just about to turn 16, so it was really late. You see, on the other hand, you've got. I'm 183cm, I'm basically a walking right angle. I have these really large feet, no boobs, and this defiant nose that just kept on giving. And so I almost felt so detached from my body that it was. I felt like I was betraying myself.
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A
Yeah.
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B
How do you. Peace. How do you make peace with that? How do you. And of course kids are brilliant and evil and I'm asked a lot about treatment in the industry, but I have such potent memories of being teased and boundaries being broken. You know, because I didn't have boobs and because I was frigid. One of my. I Mean, the most revolting name you could think of for a girl who had not blossomed into any feeling of sexuality. The boys at school used to call me frigid. And one of the most unsavory names that they did to shame me was they used to call me pinhole. It was just, you know, because everybody knew that I was still a virgin. And so she keeps cropping up. Virgin Mary. She was a virgin. The shame of being a virgin. Playing the Virgin Mary When I was 11, it was my first starring role, but it was pure and it was sanitary and there was nothing to do with sensory or touch or smell or getting in touch with yourself. I think we were actively discouraged, growing up Catholic from doing just that. And then, of course, on top of it, you've got these. This powerful imagery where a lot of the time the martyrs are naked. There's so much kind of blood and flesh and gore.
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A
So confusing, isn't it?
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B
At the same time, I suppose I was really frigid and I was very cautious.
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A
And I don't see how you can be frigid if you've never had sex. It's.
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B
Well, it's just absolutely.
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A
It's a label of someone who probably doesn't know anything about sex, who writes schoolboys.
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B
Yeah. But somehow they've either been curious or they've relented through peer pressure. And that's another dichotomy I have with myself. I've always been so quietly, but nevertheless stubborn. So I don't think I've done. I don't do many things without a fight. And I don't know, it's hard to kind of fathom out where that resilience actually began. But one of the theories I have is then coming into the modeling industry in 95, I was spotted. And I came at a very convenient period of time where we'd all had these incredible supermodels. There was nobody on the planet that didn't know a supermodel, at least one of them. And I didn't have access to fashion, but I did have more magazine. And, you know, they were just everywhere. The imagery was everywhere, wasn't it?
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A
Yeah.
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B
But I was supposed to be the kind of anti beauty backlash to that. So here I am thinking I've been spotted to be a model and my moment has come, and then all of a sudden I'm hearing phrases in the newspaper like anti beauty. And I where do you go with that? Because I know it's another label again and it's restrictive, and I suppose I wasn't really able to embrace the potential of what I felt was a straightforward, feminine woman. And then I'd like to thank Guido hairdresser.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And Linda Cantello, because I was forced into. Almost forced into my own version of womanhood simply by turning up for a go see with David Sims.
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A
Swoon.
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B
And I arrived with long hair down to my waist, like sheets.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I left with half a shorn head, and it had been dyed jet black. And something incredible happened. This was the opposite of repression. I was so ready, I think, for this reveal. Once I'd gotten over the shock of having clippers on the back of my neck, I began to understand that womanhood, it's just the notion of womanhood, it's about a feeling and exuding femininity for me. And I've always felt so feminine. So I found my own way of expressing. So my long neck replaced my cleavage.
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A
Yeah.
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B
My hands spoke in ways that were to express my nose. Instead of trying to hide something I felt was sticking out was something I. You know, I wanted it to stick out all of a sudden. I wanted it to command. I wanted it to have its own authority, if you will. When you look confident, I think you then have the chance maybe, or the opportunity to try to catch up.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And live in that body, in that mind and honor it, I suppose.
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A
And did you feel as though the fashion industry kind of embraced you in that respect?
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B
That
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A
we saw your. We completely saw your beauty and valued it, and, I mean, all the videos of Jean Paul Gaultier and Valentino, all these people just loving you and being so grateful for what you brought to, because clothes are nothing without a. A being in them. And you have this ability to light up these clothes and bring all this. This kind of nuance and this excitement and thrill to. You know, for a fashion designer, you're a total dream.
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B
And, I mean, that's so lovely to hear. That's so lovely to hear. I think it felt really empowering. And I still stuck with those extreme characters and the pleasure they gave me to perform. But I think I began then to feel so embodied, so I knew what my purpose was. And slowly there was an evolution of these characters. And the dead people died out, and, you know, these women came forth. The makeup lessened, the accoutrements, the accessories, they weren't needed anymore. There was this moment of a true reveal, a reveal that I was ready to make and perhaps wouldn't have been able to transition into being me without all of the extremities, if that makes sense.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I kind of needed to have the madness of being sort of dolled up and painted and from a different era and time in order to learn how to strip back. And at the end of the day, when the lights get shut down and people starting to go home, just sitting opposite me and knowing and feeling that I was quite enough.
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A
God, that's. It's interesting to get that. To sort of hide out within a huge, dramatic kind of foil completely and then to grow into a kind of natural, regular place within that.
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B
Yes. And to feel, I think, quite gorgeous because you've sort of done the emotional work and you know who you are and if you've really. There's a sense that for the people I really connect with, when you really know who you are, that there's a process, there's. There's a. There can be a bit of a mourning process when you stop knowing how to do things and live the way that you've lived, because it simply just does not work anymore. But what it does is it just opens up this possibility for. Well, how do I reconcile. How do I continue to do my job professionally and keep going with the notion of who I know I am now? And I get asked a lot because I started full time again last year after quite a long hiatus. How different is the industry? And I kept coming back to the same problem. And my answer inwardly, before I started trying to explain was, well, how different am I? This is such a moment. I do feel good. And it's not about beauty hacks or. Although I'm very, very pleased that, you know, we have those. It's. It's about just going in and feeling so much better. Yeah, about you life. You agonize less over the bullshit.
- [28:31]
A
Support for the show comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. We've all become so accustomed to getting instant answers to any question that crosses our minds, which is understandable. We've all had access to search engines for decades now, but often search engines will trade depth through expediency, and the answers you're given can be incomplete or compromised by advertisers. That's what sets Claude apart. Claude isn't interested in giving you quick and easy answers. When you ask it a question, it's prepared to get into the why with you, to dig deeper and follow you down rabbit holes. What's more is that Claude can also support you with the kind of admin tasks that are tedious to complete on your own, which is how I prefer to use Claude. It helps me with things like cleaning up A cluttered inbox or summarizing meeting notes or synthesizing a plan of action when I want to get started on a new project. In that way, Claude is more like an ally than a simple search engine. Try Claude for free@claude aifashionneurosis and see why problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner.
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B
I've got this sort of alter ego and I call her Irene and she really pisses me off. She's quite gloomy and she moans a lot and I've got this mission statement I give myself when I'm really scared of a big gig, a work gig and I'll just go off you pop Irene or go to bed Irene. It sounds really bonkers but I'm able just to put her away and just be authentically there me.
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A
And yeah, it's such a good idea because I. The sort of fair can. Yeah, it can kind of. Well, it gets in the way obviously. And then to.
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B
Yes.
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A
Give it a Persona. Yeah, you can address it in a more matter of fact way. So it sounds.
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B
That's right. And good. I know anxiety hinders progress and I think about that a lot now. Being a mother and juggling the whole full time modeling experience and where I would sort of bob on the periphery a lot of the time and get away with it. I'm confronted by being answerable for every decision I make personally and professionally.
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A
Because when you started you were a part of a small group of British models very successful with Stella Tennant and Honor Fraser and you. And you all walked for the genius milliner, Philip Tracy, when he used to show. And did you ever. Because Anthony Price, the designer who recently passed and did you ever do any fittings with him? Because he was, I mean apart from being an incredible maker of clothes on, on another level, he was so. His articulacy in the. Oh, he was so funny and so dark and dry.
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B
Exactly. So on the. On the one hand you've got this just this genius human being who can create and wants to promote the silhouette of dreams and he did that so, so superbly well and faultlessly. It was always all about maintaining the woman within it. But the sarcasm and the quips and the dark humor, it almost didn't match the. You know. But I kind of loved that about him and I love that you could sort of always just get a bit down and dirty with him and have a gossip and a catch up and. And yet knowing that he was always completely with you. And there are designers for me, I've always felt that way. They're so with you. They want you to go out and feel like an amazing woman.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And you're wearing their creations. And that is the only way those two elements can really come together in a, I think, powerful and interesting way. And to honor dear Stella, who I miss and I think about every day. She was the real deal, you know, And I'm not talking about, you know, aristocracy and the fact that I sort of inadvertently became one, according to everybody that wasn't English, because of who I got to knock around with. Honor. It's the same thing. And I would confidently say you never met another more brilliant person than Stella, who was kind, brilliant, original, cool, chic. And there really was no one like her. And she was the last person to know that. She was a mentor to me. And I really looked up to those girls and the whole class thing, such a load of shite. I. I don't want to get. I don't want to use this opportunity to be political. I want to feel like, you know, I want to feel personal. And it dissolves when you meet people and you. You rely on each other and you respect each other. It's fantastic. And there's all of this madness about models having these great bitch fights. And I'm not saying that didn't happen, but for the purpose of this story. We were known then as the netball team. We were the British netball team. So whenever we were kind of doing these endless show seasons, up to six catwalk shows a day, sort of the opposite, we had each other.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And we kind of grew up in an industry that doesn't require reality in any regard, or there's no sense to it. It's actually. It sort of pushes beyond the boundaries of womanhood. It's otherworldly, it's ethereal. So to have this branded gang of was something I really. I can't tell you how much that meant to me. And it means to me still, because
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A
I was looking at pictures of. Of you asleep on the floor waiting for a fitting and thinking, I suppose now the sort of sound bite is, oh, that's so exploitative and whatever. But on the other hand, it's. It's an amazing opportunity when you're young to learn how to work hard as long as you're not being exploited. And it's a kind of a difficult balance of what would you do now? How does someone learn how to go beyond themselves so that they can if they need to? And. And modeling is such a. It's a really hard. You know, good models work so hard and it's always one of those things that, you know, one of the things that irks me a lot is this. Oh, yes. Modeling. You don't have to do anything except for stand there. It's like, have do, you know, and there's no investigation. There's no getting to know. And that drives me around the bend. So I always like to validate how.
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B
I love that you advocate for that.
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A
It's so great. And you, you know, work, having. You know, when I've worked with models, they're so. They make everything come to life. They are. They are the spirit and soul and the. The graft of. Of our industry. And. And I want. I wondered. I remember Kate Moss saying that the hairdressers and the makeup artists have your back. And I wondered who your backstage parental figures were.
- [37:02]
B
Yeah, totally. I mean, we've talked about the girls, the models themselves, but I think it came a lot from, you know, for example, McKnight, for me. Yeah. And then you had Pat Mother. There was path. Yes. There was this legend. There are two ways, I guess, to look at this. There was this real. There was this real maternal instinct that played out and it was gratefully received. You know, it's nice that you get to be creative, like you say, and you hone that discipline and, you know, know it's going to be physically the endurance. And we should get to that because, of course, quite many stories about couture shows, but without people around you that you feel safe with or regarded and in the mix with, life can feel pretty lonely.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And for a person that's perhaps not always been the greatest initiator of communication, it's the best thing in the world. And, you know, they're my friends still. After 30 years, that doesn't come from nowhere. It's consistency. And I think we've all grown up a lot, too, and the fact that we're still here is. Feels like a bit of a triumph. We've all grown up together. It doesn't matter at what age that began. It's recognizing and participating in an industry that is familiar. And that's such a great way of taking a load off. You don't even have to have the chat, you're just there. I mean, there's also the theory that I call it, if I ever wrote or finished a book, it would be called Hurry up and Wait.
- [39:09]
A
Oh, that's so good.
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B
It's got to be a T shirt, Bella. Hurry up and wait. Just the demand on models to get that fitting, you know, the one that you've already done on the same day. And then all of a sudden there's a. There's chaos or there's a disaster that's happened and you get out of bed and it could be worn in the morning. Morning. And yes, I come back to your point about exploitative. You get there, you think you're going to be whisked straight in and all of a sudden you're not. So you're hurried and then you have to wait. There is the reality that your time is dependent on others, but it does afford at the same time this discipline and respect because there is nothing predictable about producing a collection. Yeah. And you respect and honor all of the people that are trying to work together to finish the garment and get it out so that it's ready and can be seen by the world. And often in those cases when I was sitting there chomping away on Haribo, I don't know why that memory came up.
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A
Everyone eats that,
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B
you know, then there would. There would be a car home and a later call time and just an acknowledgement that we'd all had this respectful emergency meeting. We came together, we knew what it was about. About. And also that's the life of a freelancer, I'm afraid. You take the work when it's happening literally.
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A
And who did you like? Who was the weight worth? Who did you like to wait for most? When it's not? Like a designer will be sitting in there, you know, having dinner or something. They'll be making something and trying to get it ready.
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B
That's right.
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A
And your return is the greatest gift to that designer because they can shape it onto you. And when you come out in the show, everyone is just speechless with kind of the impact of the beauty of the entire thing. I mean, it's really something. And all someone sees is you asleep on a bench. It's like, oh, it's such a terrible industry. And in many ways it is. But there's this allegiance between a model and a designer and everyone that surrounds that, that when it works, it is, you know, there's such a. It's an incredible moment. Who did you love to. Whose dress did you love to come out in the most?
- [42:09]
B
I mean, you know, let's talk about the collaboration and come back to your point. There is nothing passive about being amused. You know, it's almost anti feminist to say you're amused, but for me, it just screams collaboration and mutual respect in a dress, you know, you do get knackered. There's no getting around that you do. It is arduous you are worried about bringing somebody's creation to life. It's a hefty responsibility. Never mind, you know, platform shoes on a glass Runway with a blinding light, and you want to go out and you have limited time and sometimes with the greatest of designers, ironically, limited resources for the production and the invention of a collection and a show. So, you know, your time out there really matters. And I call it healthy pressure, because I want to deliver. I want to give them, as much as I enjoy the liberation of, hopefully, particularly with couture in mind, creating a visual that will be long lasting, if not forever, a memory in people's minds of something that was special and meaningful, and not to reduce designers or models or all of the amazing contributors, the people that it takes to pull that stuff together, and that it can't be considered artistic. My experience has always been so different.
- [44:03]
A
Yeah, I mean, obviously, I don't think. I mean, everyone in our world knows that it is artistic. It's. And I think there's just a sort of laziness in the attitude towards fashion, and it's not considered poetry. And it is. It is. I mean, it's a huge. It's hugely affecting in our society. So I think it's a bit of a passe approach.
- [44:35]
B
Yeah, it is.
- [44:37]
A
And.
- [44:37]
B
But it's equally so nice to talk about it. And, yeah, for a lot of people, fashion is a gateway. It opens the door to people perhaps realizing that their strong suit might be something creative and artistic and to then delve more into the world of art, literally. And to feel like you could be a part of it. And to deny fashion the same status is
- [45:14]
A
incorrect. It's blinkered.
- [45:19]
B
It's blinkered. That's it.
- [45:21]
A
You know, it's missing something.
- [45:23]
B
Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's kind of baseless, but it's convenient because it kind of keeps you there as the poor relation.
- [45:32]
A
Yeah.
- [45:34]
B
When culturally, a lot of people express themselves so beautifully and artistically through the clothes. Clothes that they wear on their back, you know.
- [45:46]
A
Do you have a favorite model?
- [45:50]
B
Loads, loads. Yasmin Guri.
- [46:00]
A
Oh, wow. Yeah. Incredible.
- [46:05]
B
See, I can't even say anything. A visual came, and I see her sashaying. You know, it's that walk. Kate, how many successful women working in the fashion industry only need one name? Yeah, she. When we were kind of mid teens, started rocking up in all of these magazines wearing these iconic. The now iconic baby doll dress with the gazelle shoes. And the other part of that uniform was having really skinny eyebrows. But she was cool, and she was Kind of not. She was so much more. She was kind of the girl that you really want to be friends with. So first. First of all, you have to imagine me plucking all my eyebrows off to emulate Kate Moss. And then you need to go directly to Star Trek. What was his name? The guy with the really pointy eyebrows. What was his name?
- [47:13]
A
Spock. Was it Spock?
- [47:13]
B
Spock. I mean, new. I'm glad I'm hairy. And they grew back quickly. But I think it's the greatest compliment in the world. World. When you see someone and you kind of want to embody not just their style, but the presence they have and how they affect you. And I continue to be hopelessly starstruck around her. And I don't think I've ever had a conversation with her that didn't sound completely discombobulated and mad because she's kind of. She grew up. I grew up looking at her growing up and really living. And not just the good and the successful and the breakthroughs. She's someone you want to really know because she's real.
- [48:05]
A
Yeah. She sees everything. I mean, she's the most discerning person, one of the most discerning people I've ever met. She sees everything. She's interesting in everything.
- [48:16]
B
Yes.
- [48:16]
A
She's not just fascinating, she is interested. So her repertoire for noticing things is. It's like, oh, my God. Really? You saw that? And that. You know, she's so. Oh, she's just.
- [48:31]
B
She's connected.
- [48:32]
A
Tastic company. Yeah.
- [48:33]
B
And she values how people want to connect with her. And I think that's also quite a British model.
- [48:40]
A
Yeah.
- [48:40]
B
Thing to kind of culturally just go all in together. And I'm so grateful for the hard work, really, of having often to go above and beyond the expectation of modeling or how people perceive models to be. Because, you know, you've got an extra string to your bow, you're kind of forced into situations often where they get into public speaking and acting and music. It goes across the board. And so, yes, there are a lot of long, frustrating ways, but there's also the most amazing portal into. And I think this is what we do so well here in this country is liberating across the arts.
- [49:32]
A
I agree.
- [49:33]
B
And it's so exciting to then have that mix of tradition combined with rebellion. But somehow at the same time, when I see all of these models, that there is this thing in common that we all have. And it's. We're also thinking people. And I think we also project that through the imagery we do because Being hyper vigilant and noticing people, whether it's energies or, you know, it's a bit strange to say it's a talent. It's more of a survival when you're young, but you really learn to read a room and you then really learn to understand where someone is coming from and then convey the story.
- [50:31]
A
Yeah.
- [50:31]
B
Whether it's print or on a Runway. I'm not condoning hyper vigilance because it often comes from a place I think of wanting to feel safe, but if I kind of skew with it a bit, that sense of belonging. When a project is great and there's mutual acknowledgement of one another, you can't beat that. There aren't. There's a reason why there's only one Naomi. There's a reason why there's only one Karen Elson. There's. Because they get the brief, they know what they're doing. And it goes beyond a conversation because you can't put it into words. It's an essence and you give vegetable life to it. I suppose.
- [51:14]
A
Yeah. Because you've also said you don't love the term androgynous, and I agree it sort of squashes the idea of sexuality. And I think being boyish as a girl is a particular kind of femininity. And I wondered what you find sexy.
- [51:34]
B
Such a good question. It's kind of reductive, isn't it, the idea that, well, if you can't be obviously feminine, then you've kind of got to be this thing that isn't ticking those boxes.
- [51:49]
A
Yeah. So weirdly, kind of un. Emotive as a kind of term. It just shuts down.
- [51:58]
B
It does.
- [51:59]
A
But actually, it's quite a hot thing, the straddling. Both, I think.
- [52:07]
B
I. I always feel. I've always felt feminine, but I always feel the sexiest in a suit, which is, I think, where we, you and I, have our own little love affair. Because I've loved so much wearing your clothes over the years, and it goes beyond calling them in for a shoot, but it's how you wish to be. If you're celebrating, you're just being you and you want to go out. And most recently, you hooked me up with this amazing electrical blue, electric blue suit. And I want to tell you where that this whole fitting came from, because I was asked to be a bridesmaid to someone I really love, but I didn't quite know how to put the dress on. She was brilliant. She just gave one coat, it was blue, and I ran it by hers and I said, are you all right. With me wearing a suit. And she said, of course I am. So there was this long line of really sort of sexy, different women in these great, nonetheless very feminine dresses. But I also got to feel authentically feminine because I was in this fabulous blue tailored number.
- [53:28]
A
Oh, I'm so pleased. That's great.
- [53:31]
B
It was so great. You know, and maybe that's the point. I. It's not about wanting the purpose isn't always about being boyish, but it's feeling for me when I wear a great suit, then you've got that right angle.
- [53:51]
A
Hmm.
- [53:52]
B
It's not dismissing the feminine. It's kind of holding her.
- [53:57]
A
Yeah.
- [53:57]
B
In place. And this great structure, for me personally, it highlights that. And I get to feel sensual and sensitive within it. It's the best frame for feeling feminine.
- [54:16]
A
Yeah. Well, that's so well put. I'm so glad it resonates.
- [54:20]
B
It does.
- [54:21]
A
I just remember I've always loved that little photograph of the poet Rambo in the Oval where he has this sort of punk rock hair. And I think someone hand colored it. And you can see the edge of his jacket and the skew with bow tie. And he looks like he's been asleep under a hedge. He puts. Probably was because he had no money.
- [54:46]
B
Yeah.
- [54:46]
A
And I thought you can. Anyone can wear that and be the kind of. This kind of thread of some sort of some sort of femininity or sexual tension in some way. And. And that's where I like to start with a suit. And I like it somehow to.
- [55:14]
B
It's alluring.
- [55:15]
A
Yeah.
- [55:16]
B
It's a kind of signaling. Yeah, it's a signaling of saying, okay, you know, there's. There's more to this. There's something underneath. And you know, I personally find men with this feminine energy to be really hot because. And it's not. It doesn't have to be the literal, but the boldness and the confidence of them wearing clothes that people may perceive to be for women only is really sexy in an almost alarming way. I've been so startled by hot men with an effeminate edge. And it comes back to the thing I was talking about earlier. You know, they know who they are. And that is the most compelling thing whenever I'm attracted to another human being.
- [56:19]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Because if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?
- [56:30]
B
Well, let's just be honest. It's perplexing. It's perplexing. I remember going on this date and I talked to this guy for a bit and he was very confident and I loved that energy about him. And he rocked up in this really pointy pair of shoes. And he was tall, which meant that he was wearing pointy shoes on quite large feet. And it's not that I had secondhand embarrassment or anything like that, but I found them to be a literal distraction. And I kept trying to stop breaking eye contact. And I had this thing, this noise going around in my head.
- [57:21]
A
It was.
- [57:25]
B
And trying to get back into the space with this guy, when in the meantime, I'm thinking, I can't get clown and circus out of my head.
- [57:35]
A
Gosh.
- [57:36]
B
And disaster. Mercifully, it didn't stop me. I think we both got lucky that night with each other. But the real reveal, Bella, was his feet. And I'll never slag off a bad pair of shoes again because they looked like they were waving at me. It was just. I've never forgotten those feet. And so whilst maybe we can't do anything with our much needed anatomy, we can forgive someone for wearing a pair of crap shoes.
- [58:08]
A
God, that's so funny.
- [58:10]
B
I don't know, like a kind of
- [58:12]
A
alert, like, yeah, don't take your eye off this shoe because I'm hiding something.
- [58:18]
B
I'm masking being. You know, just being so distracted. I'm. You're now in a circus and you're a clown and I'm trying desperately to hold eye contact with you. Anyway, the amount of stuff I wear and look back and reflect on and cringe over is. Is borderline. I mean, it's so all is forgiven, right? There's a lot of mistakes that can happen before you know what your style is. I'm crap at trends. I never know what's in. I refuse to let things go that I love if they're out. And so, yeah, let's just get to the fleshy part of the matter, literally, with people. Cause I think that's worth everything.
- [59:09]
A
Yeah. It's often said that creative people are not the best at managing business. We may know what we want, but we don't always know how to get it done. This is where I use Claude not to have ideas for me, but to help me navigate the administrative tedium of bringing my ideas to life. My inbox is full of unread emails. This is my system for reminding myself of things left to do. Claude looks at my inbox and my calendar and tells me what needs my attention and what can safely be ignored. Before meetings, Claude reads long email threads so I don't have to pretend I can remember everything. Claude helps me Keep track of what I said I'd do, what I've already done and what everyone else has quietly forgotten. And when I'm working on a project, I can give Claude some context, and it helps me sort through my ideas and prioritize the order of things. To me, Claude feels less like a tool and more like an authoritative ally. I can spend more time thinking, listening and making decisions and less time managing chaos. Try it for yourself at Claudia. You walked for Alexander McQueen and he was one of the greatest designers in the world. And models really loved him and loved what he asked from them. And what did he ask from you?
- [60:50]
B
First of all, he is still. Still the designer for me. He's my favorite designer because I wanted to give so much whenever I did a show, because he gave me so much. He gave everyone so much. He was all about the misfits, the. The unpalatable, the ugly, the dark, the scary, the. But he had this way of communicating that so powerfully and turning into something not ambiguous and corrected, but utterly beautiful. That there was beauty in something that had perhaps been had in some way suffered or had small in some way or insignificant. And to be able then to take that as the basis of creating a desirable collection, one that again, the added pressure would be that there has to be commercially viable to actually sell, is so bold, because I think we can all. We can all agree that the 90s was all about experimentation, but it was still all about. But the end result has to be beautiful. I think he was the first person to challenge the notion of beauty and to give the insignificant voice, person, time, era, culture a voice and to make it something powerful and uncomfortable.
- [62:52]
A
Yeah, I like that.
- [62:53]
B
And I love that confrontation because, I mean, we all stretched our legs. I think when Alexander was around, we did because there was a lot of thinking that needed to happen around what he was saying. And one of the great ironies of our relationship together was I could piece together everything we ever said to each other and it might be a relatively short conversation. We didn't really speak, but we understood each other fully. It was through gestures, hands, a look, certainty, understanding. The brief was always helpful. Background information. But having this intimacy with one another that kind of didn't require words was quite remarkable
- [63:59]
A
because he seemed to be able to make a dress for someone or an outfit that sprang. You could see someone being sprung from. Yeah, from everything, just. And those watching those early shows online and shows us, they rarely translate onto camera. They. They never have this sort of wildness, but his did because. And it was something to do with how sort of ecstatic all the models, it was like they were just someone had given them these clothes that made everyone so intoxicated and so intense. And every element of beauty about each person was just 10 taken to another level and completely extreme.
- [64:53]
B
And so even the materials used, they. You know, I remember the Voss show. That is a standout recollection of, you know, trying the Razor Clam dress on for the first time. And you've sort of still got. Or you believe you could still smell the sticky old seaside. You know, it's been dug up from somewhere and hasn't had its own reveal for perhaps its whole existence. And here you are helping to transform it into an artistic couture gown. And you see, that was always a very clever thing about him, that there was that There can be no debate that the finished article was also always extremely captivating, whether you thought it was beautiful or shocking. He just did that because that's what he wanted to do. So he did. And I know that's a very obvious sentence, but at the same time, so many people don't, and they can't. Or perhaps they don't know how to. But he always stuck to his guns. And I think we were all so on board with that, because what he was allowing us to do was not to perform. It was never performative. I think by the time the show happened, we got to be fully who we were in that moment, too. So I'm reminded of the unravel of the Razor Clam dress during the Voss show. And with great wisdom, just before I went out, I faltered and I said, oh, my God, what do I do? And we just looked at each other and he said, just do something. And it was so straightforward. I took it and used it. Meanwhile, then I'm not really sure what came over me, but I'll tell you what it was. It was a complete wash of liberation I unraveled on stage. And I don't know if you. Well, for all your viewers, just for the purpose of giving a description, it was. It was in a sort of almost like an asylum, a lunatic asylum, which is not very. It's not PC, and quite rightly so these days, but back then we were encouraged to actually let go, which is a gift. It is a gift to be given that trust, to be given the space and to, in that moment, feel like everything makes sense. I'll take it every time.
- [67:47]
A
That was great. And you just pulled all these. All these razor clams off and flung them.
- [67:54]
B
Yeah. Adrenaline, I think, got me through that. Experience, because it wasn't until I came off that I realized I was a complete martyr. And my hands were a little. Yeah, they were bloody. I mean, they were paper cuts.
- [68:09]
A
Wow.
- [68:12]
B
It's. Yeah. And that's adrenaline for you.
- [68:17]
A
You wrote about being at a televised roundtable discussion and invited to debate with one of your favorite feminist authors. And you introduced yourself, but she refused to shake your hand. And have you any idea what this gesture of prejudice towards you was, what she was objecting to?
- [68:41]
B
Yes, I think she had heard from somebody else that she'd offended me. And it was a complicated time in fashion. It was around the size zero debate. And she had been brought in to help and support and to give reason to why the debate was important. And through the grapevine she'd heard that I had a problem with her and. And I just about held myself together with my script, being a bit starstruck, trying to do all of the things to hold my hand out, to say how thrilled I was to meet her. And it didn't go that way, but it was such a distinct mark of I'm going to dress you down. And you know, it was probably one of the first times that it was quite a harsh disapproval. And yet it was one of the best days because I was almost forced into this space where I just had to learn to not let the world fall out of my ass when I did not get somebody's approval of me or there wasn't a like minded reaction. And it was tough and yes, it was unwarranted, but equally I then I've thought about it a lot over the years, but I could kind of come back to the same point. I was so gutted that we couldn't just be two women having a great chat together, that there had to be in some way some hierarchy. And I think the place I came to in the end was, well, God, I kind of. It's not, it's not that I, I can sympathize with her. What she must have carried on her shoulders to be this fierce feminist in a way that we don't. It's. You don't have to be masculine or intimidating to have a feminist voice anymore. You can still be very feminine from many different walks of life. But her era of feminism and the fight was reflected in the fact that she was prepared to have taken on this idea of me and she ran with it. And it was about the balance, I think, of reconciling order in her mind about who was more powerful.
- [71:44]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's so rude Apart from anything. And I think it just seems so sort of limited to be part of a movement and reductive and being in a movement, it's a responsibility to have language and to listen to other people and, you know, try to create some sort of understanding.
- [72:10]
B
Yes. It seemed that then would speak collectively on behalf of not just young women working, in fact, fashion, but women collectively throughout the world.
- [72:23]
A
Yeah.
- [72:24]
B
About the importance of autonomy. And a greater discussion from somebody as influential as her could have taken place. But the old me did kind of bomb and I shot down. And, you know, the old me would have cried and just the taxi. But I couldn't leave because I was there to do a job. So I stayed. But because it was so excruciating, I just. This shift happened. I could not live in that horrible feeling, that space anymore. And I began to sort of try and look at things. Things from her perspective. And I suppose the shock really of. I think you only make those moves if you also feel intimidated. I just wish we were more honest sometimes about feeling angsty and intimidated. Because I think it would be a much nicer conversation if we could just get over those barriers.
- [73:38]
A
I think that's very generous of you.
- [73:39]
B
Thanks. When we have tea later, I'll tell you the other things she said.
- [73:46]
A
I think any type of talking down is nobody learns anything and it's just a horrible style.
- [73:54]
B
But here's the thing. She did it. She did that. And she saw no reason to change. But what I took from it was. It was my time to change. I was armed and ready to not put up with, I suppose, being reduced.
- [74:16]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [74:17]
B
But also the importance of agency and having agency over yourself. And I'm still not good at being confrontational. I loathe it. But when somebody gives you the opportunity to expand on your own self development and find your feet and stand up and be heard, then maybe in the end you can kind of thank them.
- [74:40]
A
I suppose you can find the language. And language is the most important thing in the world because, you know, it's the mechanism for change. And you mentioned this, this title for your possible memoir, Hurry up and Wait. You have to. Because I read that you started a memoir a while ago and that you said stories from your childhood have been returning. And you mentioned something you said when you were little. The worm that you pitted in the garden you wheeled about in a doll's pram. It made me think of in Les Miserables when it begins. And Cosette has a pet nail that is her doll because she doesn't have anything And I wondered, how do you feel? Are you excited about the idea of revealing your voice as well as your beauty?
- [75:43]
B
I think when I always talk about the Loli worm, mainly in my own head, because it's something that just keeps coming back round. Why did I. What was that? The worm was far from attractive and had limited resources, didn't move very much. But there was this empathetic pull I felt to give it the same VIB treatment as my doll Charlotte in the pram. So she got ousted and I picked up this worm and I put it in the pram and I wanted the. That worm to feel everything but lowly. It sounds bonkers, I know, but I was quite a serious, intense child and I, I, I really felt things and I, I felt sorry for it, is all I can say. It was just there on its own in the, you know, in the garden. And I just wanted to take care of it, to let it. To let the worm know that I would and I could.
- [76:50]
A
Maybe it's like my, My shrink says you're everyone in your dream.
- [76:56]
B
Yeah.
- [76:56]
A
So these are all these aspects of you, of yourself, who you and how you care for them. And you care for your beautiful doll Charlotte. And the, and the inner worm.
- [77:08]
B
Yeah, the desirable bit that's not evident at all.
- [77:16]
A
Suggests a very lovely disposition that you have. And you've always been like that. I mean, over the years, I've encountered you in the fashion world. You're always somebody, you always are so courteous and you always say hello. And you're so. You're just a lovely person to bump into.
- [77:38]
B
And so are you.
- [77:40]
A
Well, thank you so much for sharing all these amazing stories with me today. So lovely.
- [77:48]
B
It was great.
- [77:48]
A
Thank you for being on Fashion Neurosis.
- [77:51]
B
Thank you for having me. It's a joy.
- [78:11]
A
Thanks again to Anthropic, the team behind Claude for supporting this show. Claude is the AI for people who want a thinking partner, people who aren't satisfied with good enough, but instead want to understand the why of the thing more than just getting a simple answer. If that sounds like you, you can try Claude for free at Claude AI fashionneurosis.