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- [00:01]
Annie Leibovitz
Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint.
- [00:10]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
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- [00:12]
Annie Leibovitz
Sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one.
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Podcast Host / Advertiser
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- [00:24]
Annie Leibovitz
Download today.
- [00:26]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder? With a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other, Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce, and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for free@odoo.com that's o d o o dot com.
- [01:15]
Bella
Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Annie Leibovitz, can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
- [01:30]
Annie Leibovitz
Well, I knew for sure I was gonna wear what I wear almost every single day, which is, I have about 10 pairs of these pants and 15 of these shirts that. I had, I actually had made. I was, we were doing something on the Peninsula, Peninsula hotel in Hong Kong. And everyone kept saying, oh, you have to have shirts made downstairs. They will make them overnight for you, you know. And so I had, it was just too exciting, the idea of having a shirt made overnight, you know, so literally they made these shirts overnight. And so this one is 20 years old, the one I have on, and they get softer and softer. The cotton is just amazing. And so the basic thing that I wear almost every single day and everyone thinks, oh, she wears black all the time, but I'm just wearing, it's like it can get dirty and you don't have to worry, you know, you can spill coffee on it. You can, you know, I mean, I am getting a little tired of it now, but. And when I had my children, I, you know, I wanted, you know, to wear, you know, colors, you know, more, something more.
- [02:50]
Bella
They love color, don't they, children?
- [02:52]
Annie Leibovitz
They, yeah, they, they definitely. I tried for like two or three years and then I went back to this because it's so. I think it really is about not wanting to feel for me. I don't Want to feel. I. I don't want anything. I don't want to feel. I don't want to worry about myself. I want to be out of myself. And I don't want to worry about my body. I don't want to worry about anything. I don't want to worry about it. I. I just. I just. And then when you travel and you can just pack, you know, five of the same pants, same pants, five shirts, and you just. And then every now and then, you have to dress it up a little bit, you know, So, I mean, this shirt, I mean, I have to show you the. I wore. I wore it especially for you, you know, Bella, because it. It's. I'm trying to save it. It's like the. The sleeve just went on it and the. And the back is. Has stitching all in it, trying to hold it from falling apart. But, you know, I love that aspect of it, that it gets older and. But it really is the pants. The pants are based on a Donna Karen pair of pants from the 80s that I had copied by Christine Billing in New York. And it has Lycra in it. So they move. When you're really photographing, you're almost dancing and you just don't want to. I just don't want to think about what's on me. You know, that's pretty much. But, you know, then every now and then you meet someone like Daniel Roseberry and you. And you're admiring his corduroy jacket and pants. So beautiful. That's his black pair of pants and black shirt. And he wears it every single day. And he has like you know, maybe 10 or 20. Anyway, that's what he wears every single day to work. And I said, maybe I could have a new uniform. And I asked him. Well, he said, I'm gonna make you. I'm gonna make you, you know, a suit. And it has pants to it, but I've sort of fallen in love with the jacket. Cause I can put it on and. And I feel a little bit more dressed up or something.
- [05:17]
Bella
It's really nice and it's great with the dark gray of your shirt and trousers. And it just sort of. The colour seems to deep.
- [05:26]
Annie Leibovitz
These were black?
- [05:28]
Bella
Yeah, because the deep grey is very good and it seems to suit you. It's less contrasty and it's more nuanced with the dark burgundy color.
- [05:41]
Annie Leibovitz
I was talking to my daughter, though, who surprised me here in the hotel yesterday, and she said, wait a minute, mom, why aren't you wearing your pajamas to Bella's because basically, that is really the truth. Since COVID I just. When I'm upstate in my place, upstate, some days I don't get out of my pajamas. I just love my pajamas. I just love my pajamas, and my children and people know me give me pajamas for Christmas and, you know, for my birthday. And I love pajamas. I love working in pajamas and editing in pajamas. And so these are kind of a. Kind of more glorified version of the pajamas.
- [06:30]
Bella
You mentioned you were wearing a bra.
- [06:32]
Annie Leibovitz
You had to make pajamas, Bella.
- [06:34]
Bella
I actually did make some for Marks and Spencer's just.
- [06:38]
Annie Leibovitz
Just now.
- [06:39]
Bella
I'll see if they. I See if I can get some. I'll show you.
- [06:42]
Annie Leibovitz
Oh, my God, I'm excited.
- [06:44]
Bella
Yeah. I'm obsessed with pajamas as well.
- [06:47]
Annie Leibovitz
I know. So how come you're dressed up today?
- [06:51]
Bella
I always need. I need something. Some transition before. Before working. So I have a ritual of changing slightly out of pajamas. Otherwise, it's too easy to go back to bed, which I don't actually like going back to bed. But you mentioned that you were wearing a bra today, which you said.
- [07:13]
Annie Leibovitz
No, I know. That's the best thing about the pajamas. I mean, I do. You know, I have to say sometimes if I go all day long in the pajamas upstate, it's like I'll take a shower and change back into another pair of pajamas, you know, because I can't go to sleep in the same. I love clean clothes.
- [07:31]
Bella
Yeah.
- [07:32]
Annie Leibovitz
I'm obsessed with, you know, when I was starting to make a better living. I just love. I have to wear clean clothes every single day. I mean, I love clean clothes. So I could never go back to sleep in the same pajamas that I was wearing. Yes. No, no. I was bringing up that I'm. I'm not a big fan of. I have to wear a bra, but I don't. I. I don't like wearing bras. You know, I feel like I keep trying to find one, and I just need to do a little more research. That's more comfortable or something. But I. You know, along with those pajamas, there are. No, I don't wear a bra.
- [08:12]
Bella
Yeah.
- [08:13]
Annie Leibovitz
So, yeah, no, I'm like, should, like, take the bra off. Not in front of the camera. But no, I don't like bras. It's like, I feel like, wait a minute.
- [08:24]
Bella
I love bras because for ages, my breasts were too small to bother with a bra, and then they got like a millimeter bigger, and I quickly got, like, a bra. It was so exciting. You know, remind me of school and all these girls and Their underwear, which I was always intrigued by.
- [08:43]
Annie Leibovitz
No, I, like, I lost some weight. So now. Now the bras are riding up. They're like. Like all this one is, is riding up. You know, it's like this. It's. Anyway, it's funny, girls being women.
- [08:58]
Bella
Yeah. And your photographer has taken some of the most recognized images in the world, and your name is famous, but your work is the superstar. And Gloria Steinem said she's the tallest, most authoritative, unsure person that I've ever seen. And your work is so authoritative. And I wonder, you pulled. What are you unsure about?
- [09:24]
Annie Leibovitz
I love Gloria Steinem.
- [09:27]
Bella
I mean, she's just marvelous.
- [09:29]
Annie Leibovitz
I was telling you earlier that I. With this book that came out on the reprinting of the first volume of Susan Sontag's. Well, our collaboration on a book on women from 1999. And then we. It was, you know, Hillary Clinton had asked me. She wanted to commemorate the book in some way. She reached out to me over a year ago, and I thought about, you know, it could be nice to reprint it because it's out of print. And so I sat down and looked at it and really liked it. I don't think of it as really a time capsule, but I think of it as a moment in some way. But I realized that I had all this work since 1999, not that I ever thought I was going to do a book on women again. And I thought, you know, maybe we can make a companion book to go with. With the first book. And we threw it together in the last year. And of course, I immediately went to Gloria and asked her if she would, you know, consider writing for it. It was interesting because I reread Gloria's essay this morning when I got up, because I've been struggling with trying to talk about the book. And I don't really. I don't really feel like I'm qualified to, you know, as a word, I'm not a wordsmith to be able to talk about these photographs, other than how proud I am of the women in these books and impressed with them, you know, especially in the second book, you know. And so I, you know, I'm not Chimamanda Adichie, and I'm not Gloria Steinem, and I'm certainly not Susan Sontag. So I'm like, you know, but the Gloria Steinem. What I'm trying to get at is when I asked Gloria if she would write something, she sent me something over that was kind of about me. And I just called her up and I said, gloria, no, no, we need to know. I want to know. Are we okay? You know, they took Roe versus Wade away. You know, are we okay? Are we? What's going on? You know what's going on. You have to write about yourself. Please write about yourself. And, you know, Gloria had an abortion, and she did write about it previously, so she wrote about. She really opened herself up in this essay, and it's so good. I have to do a talk tomorrow night, and I'm just going to. I'm just going to read from the essay. It's so good.
- [12:49]
Bella
It's interesting because I loved her saying about, you know, you're the tallest unsure person because you just cited these women and, you know, you're every bit as eloquent as they are using a different medium. And that is good for people who don't read and they like to see things. And it's so striking and informative and thought provoking, and they are the most beautiful books. And then it's wonderful to have these essays in as well. So sometimes it's hard to read unless you're provoked into reading and then suddenly you're able to read. And I think your work is very effective in that. And. And I know you're one of six children, and I wondered how you got attention.
- [13:49]
Annie Leibovitz
No, we didn't. We were abandoned. We were totally abandoned. No, no, no. We were like. You know, there's a photograph of my parents in Photographer's Life, and it's. I'm visiting them in Florida, and they're in the kitchen and. And I walk into the kitchen. I must have been standing in the doorway for, like, about 10 minutes or something. They never really turned around. But, you know, I said, oh, my God.
- [14:17]
Bella
This is.
- [14:18]
Annie Leibovitz
This is. This is the picture of my parents. You know, I think my mother just liked babies. She just kept having babies. But she was a force. She was really an amazing. You know, she really brought us up all interested in. In art and being creative and, you know, she studied with Martha Graham and, you know, I think she was just, you know, she made us all take piano lessons. I mean, we all, you know, I think I knew early on I was going to be, you know, in. In art in some way, you know, so, yes, there. Yes, I was one of six. But, you know, it was. It was actually a great childhood, even being abandoned, you know, but we always knew we were loved. We really always knew we were loved. I just think my mother probably shouldn't really have had children because she wasn't. She didn't really want to be a mother. I think she really wanted, you know, more and.
- [15:33]
Bella
To be an artist.
- [15:34]
Annie Leibovitz
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [15:37]
Bella
Because you. You talk about her being a dancer and then you said, dance can't be photographed. And I wondered what you meant by that, because you have done that. You have managed.
- [15:49]
Annie Leibovitz
No, I photographed, you know, poses or. Yeah, I mean, well, that's what's so beautiful about it as an art is that it's euphoria like that, you know, it's just in the air. It's like. I've had many conversations about filming dance and apparently there was. There was a woman who snuck a camera into, you know, the Met, you know, and sat in the balcony and film danced from, you know, from the balcony. And those films are amazing of dance. You know, I think. I don't know, it's just. It's not. It hasn't really. But that's what's so wonderful about it. You can't really.
- [16:39]
Bella
It's a bit like fashion shows, actually, because when you film them, they. They don't have that impact.
- [16:46]
Annie Leibovitz
Yeah. I had no idea about fashion.
- [16:48]
Bella
Yeah.
- [16:48]
Annie Leibovitz
And until I started doing that work for Vogue. And it was always sort of the low man on the totem pole for me as far as photography was. I mean, of course, as a young photographer, I looked at work from Europe and New York, Guinea Berdin and Helmut Newton and Avedon and Irving Penn. I mean, the fashion photographers, you know, then you go back into history to Stichen and Beaton and.
- [17:19]
Bella
Yeah.
- [17:19]
Annie Leibovitz
And. And. And all that incredible work. So you admired it, but it wasn't like something as. As a. As a photographer who. Who grew up with, you know, or. Or studied Robert Frank and Cartier Bresson. It was not like something that you aspired to be as a fashion photographer. But, but. But the first couture I did for Anna Winter, which was Kate Moss and Sean Combs in Paris. I am with Grace Coddington, if you can imagine.
- [17:58]
Bella
Gosh.
- [17:58]
Annie Leibovitz
And I went and I. They didn't tell me to go to the fashion shows, but I did go and I saw. Oh, my God. This is. This is. This is art. I mean, this is. I had. I had no idea. I had no idea until you sit in those shows and see this work go down and. But it's not filmed very well. No. Ever.
- [18:22]
Bella
It doesn't seem to trust. I have no idea. Yeah, it doesn't have that. It doesn't make you crazy the way when you're watching it, you have this sense of something extraordinary has been made and is being shown. And in that moment, it's so intense, and then it. It kind of stays and. Yeah, because it's interesting. You said, you know, I never imagined I'd get fashion, but. Or I'd be into fashion, but you really get. As soon as you started photographing it, you. You got it entirely and then went with the. With the grandeur of it and the.
- [19:03]
Annie Leibovitz
Well, I went all over the place with it. I didn't take it seriously to begin with. Bea Feitler was a very, very important art director that I. She seemed to, you know, she. Of course, she gave Diane Arbus her work at Harper's Bazaar. I mean, she was very close with Diane Arbus, but she was. She did all those incredible issues at Harper's. Harper's Bazaar with Ruth Ansell and, you know, Jean shrimped into the Blinking Eye, and she was an incredible. But she really mentored me and told me if I was going to do fashion, that you had to see. You could shoot any way you want, but you were. You had to see the clothes, you know, and so it already came with some rules to it, you know, so. Which I made my best. I mean, I stayed to that rule.
- [20:05]
Bella
Yeah.
- [20:08]
Annie Leibovitz
I definitely. And there are people that you photograph in fashion. Like when I photograph Rihanna, that was it. It was like being on tour with the rolling stones in 1975, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, she loves fashion. She. She's just so smart and brilliant and, you know, and what she did with being pregnant is, you know, she took the Demi Moore idea and totally blew that out of the water. I mean, she's just such a brilliant, incredible person. I've tried to write about photographing her, but I. It's really like being, you know, taken into this. This. This. This world. It's few and far between. So I. I think I'm headed back to portraits and stories. I. I admire the designers. They're. They're like great artists.
- [21:14]
Bella
With Be a Feitler, you said that she told you had to edit your work, and I wondered how that translated. What did you do when she said that to you?
- [21:25]
Annie Leibovitz
Well, she said I had to learn how to edit my work. I didn't know how to edit my work. I was. I've been working for Rolling Stone for, like, almost 13 years. 12. Well, like, probably 11, 12 years at that point. And I would just bring my work in because I would be like a child saying, oh, look what I did. You know, she said, annie, you have to edit your work. You have to. You can't just bring it all in. You Know, like that and. And it really was work to learn how to edit because she could edit. She would edit in 10 minutes and then she would sort of sit me down and I have to go through it and try to, you know, try to do what she did. It took me, you know, a couple hours to go. To go through it the way. The way she went through it, but I come out the other end of it. I'm actually a good editor now.
- [22:17]
Bella
Yeah. Yeah.
- [22:18]
Annie Leibovitz
And I don't worry about how much I shoot or, you know, because you. And funny, this time out, no one's really asking me how many pictures do I take before I. But that was a question that would be asked. I don't really care. I mean, it's just like sometimes I shoot and to make it look like I'm shooting, just, you know, so. But I know I'm not shooting. I know I'm not really getting, you know, what can be working.
- [22:48]
Bella
You're getting closer to the thing, you know, is your shot when you're shooting and not shooting.
- [22:56]
Annie Leibovitz
I mean, it's different every single time. I don't know. My photographs are not really, I think, still left over from those early personal reportage, you know, ideas. Cartier, Bresson, Robert Frank. They really are. They're more pulled back, you know, I like being somewhere in an environment that. And showing where you are. If you can be somewhere, can't always be somewhere. I'm a terrible. I'm a terrible studio photographer. I really don't like the studio. It's. It feels too scary to me. God, it's really like. Yeah, it's just you and you and the person and then.
- [23:38]
Bella
And then.
- [23:39]
Annie Leibovitz
Then you have to make it up even more. Sometimes you get so tired of making it up, you don't want to make it up.
- [23:44]
Bella
Yeah.
- [23:45]
Annie Leibovitz
Yeah, you don't want to make it up. As foosh as what I like to go. It's so funny because I have to do. I'm doing something with someone in January and she said, I don't want to go outside. It's going to be too cold. Because my shoots have been likened to an Outward Bound experience, you know, like. Because I, you know, like, I should just shut. Shut my, you know, my work down in the winter, you know, because it's just. It's just too cold to go outside.
- [24:18]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder? With a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce, and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for free@odoo.com that's o d o o.com.
- [24:59]
Nicole Phelps
Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, global director of Vogue Runway and Vogue Business and host of the Run through podcast. Every Tuesday, join me for the latest fashion news like the shakeups of Balenciaga and Dior and what's trending in Paris and Milan. You'll also hear interviews with top designers from Marc Jacobs and Rick Owens to Daniel Roseberry, Sarah Burton and many more. On Thursdays, Chloe Maul, editor of Vogue.com and Choma Nadi, head of editorial content at British Vogue, take you behind the scenes at Vogue and share their thoughts on fashion through the lens of culture. You'll hear interviews with some of your favorite stars like Julianne Moore, Pharrell Williams and celebrity stylist Law Roach. Join us to get your fashion and culture news twice a week. Listen to the Run through with Vogue every Tuesday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [25:46]
Bella
Because your father was in the military during the Vietnam War when everyone was out and about marching against it too. And your first pictures, I think were of people on the army based in the Philippines.
- [26:02]
Annie Leibovitz
You've done your research.
- [26:03]
Bella
Bella Oh, I always, I like to get, get fully immersed and feel your life.
- [26:11]
Annie Leibovitz
Nobel, I'm so impressed. Really?
- [26:14]
Bella
Were your Rolling Stone photographs a version of protest pictures? Because they're so.
- [26:21]
Annie Leibovitz
Well, you know what, I was living in San Francisco. I was going to a school, the San Francisco Art Institute that had the GI Bill. Soldiers would come through there from Vietnam who, you know, going to, I was going to school with, with, with soldiers. Yeah, that, that one that were photographers who, you know, talked to me about their experiences of being out on, on the, you know, on the front there and basically not really holding it a gun, but holding their cameras and taking pictures of, you know, the flares going up at night or whatever. No, it was, it was just part of, it was part of everything that was going on in San Francisco. I mean, it was really so prevalent. I mean it was, there were pro set protests every day. There were, you know, like demonstrations. It was very much a way of life, you know, in San Francisco. It was like, you know, or you're going down to the demonstration on the, you know, downtown, you know, like, you know, it's what we, what you kind of did. I mean, and, and, and you know, I was taught to just photograph, you know, it didn't matter what you were really, you know, photographing. You were, it was really about seeing.
- [27:43]
Bella
Yeah.
- [27:44]
Annie Leibovitz
And so it's true when, you know, I had just gone down to this demonstration in the middle of the. Of San Francisco and I brought the work the next day to Rolling Stone magazine to see and it was, you know, I would take the work back to the school darkroom and process the film and print and the same day. So Rolling still was impressed, I think that that could be done. But no, it was just part of, I mean it was Berkeley. Berkeley had. It seemed like it's what was going on all the time.
- [28:28]
Bella
Yeah, yeah. Because you were 20 when you went into Rolling Stone magazine offices and showed your photographs and then you became their star photographer.
- [28:40]
Annie Leibovitz
Well, I don't think it was quite that fast when it began. It was like a folder up newspaper and it's. They, you know, understandably, they were very interested in, in writing and they had no sense of visuals, you know, they had no sense of photography or they, they picked up a lot of pictures. They, and, and, and, and worse, they, they took photographs and, and cut them up and make collages and things like that, you know, like, you know, they didn't, they didn't really understand the visual side. They were totally a word paper. And so, you know, over the years, you know, we all grew up together. It was a young, very young Jan and Jane Winner, very young group, you know, and incredible writers, you know, like Hunter Thompson and Tom Wolfe and Truman Capote. But I remember when Avedon did the special issue on the. He called it the Family, which was really politics and the state of the world, you know, in America at the time. A whole set of portraits. And Jan Winner gave him the whole issue for those photographs. I, it was like, it was, it was really, you know, as far as I'm concerned, a great moment. The magazine had learned how to use visuals and photography and so it was like, it was just as I felt. I felt just as successful with Avedon's, you know, special issue than.
- [30:23]
Bella
Yeah.
- [30:24]
Annie Leibovitz
You know, I was so proud of.
- [30:26]
Bella
The magazine because, because you work closely with Hunter S. Thompson and I wondered, I mean, you were kind of the terrible twins. And I wondered if you discussed ideas, what it would look like, you know, when you were photographing the things of his story. So you didn't.
- [30:47]
Annie Leibovitz
I just have to laugh? No, no, no, I don't think anyone really knew what anyone else was doing really was. It was really kind of flying by the seat of your pants. And Hunter, and I've talked. I've written about Hunter a little bit in that work, but he really liked to work by himself. I mean, he would push me away. And I've said that by pushing me away, I learned how to make my own way. And at a certain point, because originally I was sent out with writers, and at a certain point, I didn't want to go with writers any longer. I just wanted to go on my own. And because the writer had their idea and then I had my idea, and I always thought those two ideas could go together. You know, they, they didn't. They weren't necessarily, you know, separate in some way, but, you know, Hunter. Yeah, no, Hunter was very special. You know, insane person, brilliant, genius. And.
- [31:58]
Bella
You know, because I, I love the story about the Nixon story where he was. He. He loathed him so much, and then when he finally was out, he couldn't write the piece. And you did the whole story as a photograph, Right.
- [32:12]
Annie Leibovitz
They were holding. They were holding a 10 or 11 piece pages for his story at Rolling Stone, and they didn't know what to do. And they just took my pictures and they ran them. And it was like shocking, really. But yeah, no, he, you know, I was at the White House and he was at the pool, you know, at his hotel, you know, listening. You know, he never made it to the White House. It wasn't his style. I mean, it isn't how he wrote.
- [32:44]
Bella
Yeah, because you photographed a lot of bands and musical stars and, and then when the Rolling Stones went on tour and you decided to go with them, and Jan Wenner, the editor of Rolling Stones, said, don't go on tour with the Rolling Stones. Too many people come back drug addicts. But you went anyway and.
- [33:07]
Annie Leibovitz
And I came back a drug addict.
- [33:09]
Bella
What was your drug of choice?
- [33:11]
Annie Leibovitz
No, it took me about eight years to get off the tour.
- [33:13]
Bella
No. So.
- [33:18]
Annie Leibovitz
To try to put more color to that story, basically, Robert Frank went on the tour with Danny Seymour in 1972, and he did a film called Cocksuckers Blues. Oh, yeah. And I was, I was covering, I covered. I went to two or three cities on the 72 tour. And I, you know, I couldn't believe, believe I was that close to Robert Frank. You know, I mean, it was like, you know, he was like my hero and my God. And. And, you know, one point, he even picked up my camera and I was like trembling, you know, because he was, you know, it was Robert Frank, you know. You know, it was just. I couldn't believe it. So 75 tour came, came rolling along, and I got a call from Mick Jaggers asking if I would be the tour photographer. And I thought, well, of course, you know, Robert Frank can do it. I want to go out and try to do it. You know, I. You know, I don't know what I was going to do. I mean, I. So naive. I mean, I. You know, they were staying. As they went from city to city, they were staying in these really great hotels. I brought my tennis racket. I thought, you know, I'm gonna really take some. Some lessons from the, you know, the lead tennis guy at each hotel, and I'll improve my tennis game. I was really excited to, like, you know, go on the tour and. And of course, I never saw the light of day. I mean, I kind of immediately sort of went into their world. I mean, I can really stand outside of myself and look at. Look at that work and go, oh, my God. You know, I mean, it's like I just never put the camera down. I shot all the time. The work is like this river. It's just. The detail's incredible. The imagery is, you know, kind of incredible. It really is amazing. And it's this work of this very young. I'm outside of myself, looking at my young self, thinking this kind of. It's my example to young photographers of what you need when you first start, you know, the kind of insanity, the kind of obsession, the kind of. The verve, the energy, the drive, the. You know, it's a powerful set of pictures, you know, that I didn't look at for years and years until years and years, years later. And it's a really incredible example of that period and how I was photographing. But, yes, it definitely almost killed me. You know, I thought at the time that in order to take a good picture, you really had to be become one with your subject. You have to be more involved. And what a stupid idea to do this with a band of men, you know, like, it. You know, it couldn't have been more stupid. But I was young and crazy and. And, you know, it took me a while to. I mean, I. I wasn't used to something overtaking me.
- [36:49]
Bella
Yeah.
- [36:49]
Annie Leibovitz
And it took me a while to. To get the right help to, you know, stop taking drugs. But once I found the right help is, like, within a month, it was over. That was it. It was like, no more, you know.
- [37:07]
Bella
Because you said something about not Wanting drugs to close you down, but to open you up. And I. I wondered what. What your favorite drug was to do that.
- [37:18]
Annie Leibovitz
Oh, it was cocaine. Because I never wanted to, you know, I just wanted to keep moving. Keep moving. But it totally does a reverse thing at a certain point. Point it just, you know, it robs you of everything. But I. I have to say, I definitely. Having that experience as a photographer and thinking that I had to become one with whatever I was photographing, you know, I. I definitely rebuilt my stance on. On that. I basically will never go to that extent where you give yourself up completely like that. I definitely. If you sometimes feel in my work, I'm just a step back or two, it's. It's because of that experience, for sure.
- [38:24]
Bella
Yeah.
- [38:25]
Annie Leibovitz
You know, I'm a passionate bookmaker and I just love. I love books. It's really where my work is. And so photographer's life had, you know, had that for sure. Is it okay if I have a glass?
- [38:40]
Bella
Yes, please do. Yeah.
- [38:43]
Annie Leibovitz
Hmm. Okay.
- [38:46]
Bella
Because when I was. When I was watching the documentary that your sister made, and. And there's a moment where you talk about your. Your kind of you becoming increasingly chaotic and then forgetting about your rental cars all over the place.
- [39:04]
Annie Leibovitz
Oh, my God, no.
- [39:05]
Bella
Then you go to rehab in the end, and you change, you know, and I change.
- [39:12]
Annie Leibovitz
You know, I don't know if it's about changing. It's just. I got myself back.
- [39:15]
Bella
Yes. Yeah.
- [39:16]
Annie Leibovitz
You know, and I. I mean, no two ways about it. Drugs are stupid. It's just. That's the bottom line, you know, I.
- [39:30]
Bella
Suppose they make you feel like you're getting closer and actually, well, you know.
- [39:35]
Annie Leibovitz
I mean, I think what's important. And it's always been very hard. I know there's been a lot of books now, memoirs, coming out about that period, but everyone was on.
- [39:46]
Bella
Yeah.
- [39:46]
Annie Leibovitz
I mean, you know, I don't mean to say it, but it was really. It was. It's hard to explain, but it was. It was prevalent. It was like everywhere. You know, I remember going to. I just come out and I was going to be photographed by Robert Mapplethorpe and have my picture taken, which was interesting. And so I went to see him and. And he put out this line that was so a long line. And I looked at it and I said, okay. You know, it's like, you know, the portrait is me from the side looking away, you know, somewhere, you know. You know, it was just like, you know, it had its. It's run. I mean, it was. Drugs aren't uninteresting you know, on some level, you know, for sure. I mean, it's always good to know that there are altered states to everything.
- [40:51]
Bella
But you're right, actually, because, you know, it's drugs that change people rather than getting off that changes them. I think because I've seen so much, you know, such a, you know, everyone has gone through it or has had close experiences with friends, and it seems that people become diminished. And when it's great at first and then suddenly, you know, it's not. Otherwise everyone would be on drugs and it would be perfect.
- [41:24]
Annie Leibovitz
Did you know Earl McGrath?
- [41:26]
Bella
I didn't actually. I know so many people who knew him and I never met him.
- [41:32]
Annie Leibovitz
No. He, at one point he said to me, andy, you've been a photographer for this many years and you've been a drug addict for this many. Would you want, what do you want to be a photographer or a drug addict? And I said, I think I want to be a photographer. So he was very helpful in that way.
- [41:48]
Bella
Yeah, it seems.
- [41:50]
Annie Leibovitz
Seems a long time ago. Seems so.
- [41:52]
Bella
Mm.
- [41:54]
New York Magazine Narrator
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- [42:54]
Bella
Because Jan Wenner described your image of John Lennon and naked, curled up around Yoko Ono as the Pieter of our times. And he was shot and killed only four or five hours after you taking that photograph, which must have been extremely shocking for you. And you said that John was adamant that he wanted him and Yoko to be on the COVID And I wondered how you'd manage to make sure that his Wishes were carried out.
- [43:29]
Annie Leibovitz
I was sort of told that they wanted John and not John and Yoko when I was sent to take the photograph. And I think I've always been, I mean, I've known John for over, you know, 10 years at that point. And I think when I got to their apartment, I just told him that, you know, I just said, you know, think they want just you, John, you know. And he said, oh, no, I, I, I. It has to be both of us together. It really does. And I said, well, let's think of something really, really. Let's think of something really good that Olympia. Let's make it good, you know, whatever. And he. They had just done Double Fantasy and it was so beautiful. The, it was, it was them kissing, you know, on the COVID And 1980 was sort of deplete of romance. You know, it seemed like a. It seemed, you know, not a very romantic time, but I imagined them, you know, holding each other in some way. And I imagined that they would both be nude. And it, it's not, it wasn't unusual for them to pose, pose nude. But, you know, I've told the story many times, but basically, you know, at the last minute, you know, Yoko didn't want to take off, you know, all of her clothes. Take off her clothes. She was. And you know, she was. And I said, you know, okay, just leave everything on. And, you know, in those days with film, you would take a Polaroid first. And I took the Polaroid and I showed John and he said, oh, my God, I really love that. That's really our, that's our relationship with the idea that he was naked and she was clothed and we just shot a few friends. God, really, you know, I brought it back. Well, I was getting it processed, actually, when it was still being processed that night when I got a call from Jan Winter to say that he had been shot. And I went over to the hospital, Roosevelt Hospital, and waited. And until early morning when the doctor came out and announced that he had died. It was, you know, it was definitely. Shocking to me. It was an upsetting. And I mean, it took me, you know, just some. Sometimes you're in these places that you don't understand why you're there, you know, but, you know, the photograph itself. So what happened was I went into Rolling Stone, if not the next day, the day after, and they were mocking up a head portrait of John and I. I went in to see Jan and I said, jan, no, no, John. John really wanted Yoko with him.
- [47:12]
Bella
Yeah.
- [47:13]
Annie Leibovitz
And Jan changed the COVID He changed it to Both of them together.
- [47:19]
Bella
It's so moving every time, that photo.
- [47:22]
Annie Leibovitz
Yeah, no, I. It's still a very. It's so interesting to have a photograph like that and. And where it changes over time. You know, you look at it and it tells you another story. You know, someone dies, you look at the photograph differently. It's interesting. Now there's a lot of people in my photographs who are dying. I was just thinking, you know, Robert Wilson, you know, dying. And I took a look at the photograph. If you. Him holding the light bulb. I love that picture so much of him. And, you know, just recently, Diane Keaton, you know, I just. I went back through my photographs of her and, you know, I realized how much she had inspired me in the way she dressed and how she held her ground and how she dressed. And anytime I photographed her, she would come with ideas. And because she was an artist and she was a photographer as well. And, you know, if you can imagine photographing Hollywood, quote unquote, and then you're. You meet someone like Diane. Diane Keaton. It was. She was so impressive, you know, so they're there. We were photographing her for. I was photographing her for Vanity Fair, and there was a young fashion editor there who got all racks and racks of clothes for her. And I looked at him and I said, she's not going to wear any of your clothes. This is not going to happen. He said, well, I could have tried. Yeah. I mean, but she's not gonna wear. Anyway. So Diane gets there and she, you know, and of course she didn't wear any of his clothes. And he literally went off to a corner and started crying. I mean, I'm not kidding. He started crying.
- [49:32]
Bella
That's crazy. Hadn't he watched Diane Keaton? I mean, I mean, her whole point.
- [49:39]
Annie Leibovitz
Is Diane Keaton, you know, I'm. I mean, oh, my God.
- [49:42]
Bella
Everything she wears was. When she died, it just seemed like impossible. It seemed like she's still a young woman. She stayed with so many people from so many generations as a kind of thrilling co. Conspirator in a way.
- [50:04]
Annie Leibovitz
I mean, there's the Sitting where she's. She brought in the. She brought in a reference picture of someone with her head against the wall, you know, because she always was trying to hide herself in her photographs. And not. Not so different from Cindy Sherman, actually. Who wants to hide herself, right?
- [50:29]
Bella
Is she a friend of yours, Cindy Sherman?
- [50:31]
Annie Leibovitz
She's not. She's not a friend. I just. I admire her so much. I mean, I just like, she's such a great Artist. I mean, I just, like, you know. You know, we've done some nice work together, but I just, like. I still get, like. I admire her too much. You know, she's just amazing, amazing, amazing artist.
- [50:57]
Bella
That's so interesting about Diane Keith and trying to hide herself. And so we did.
- [51:03]
Annie Leibovitz
We did these. These photographs, and they're in, I think, a book or so, but where she does a little jig, a little dance of some kind. And it looks like some kind of Czechoslovakian tango or something. I don't know what it is. But I just. Anyway, so she was such an artist. She was good friends with Lloyd Z, who was an art director who I knew very well and was an art director of Rolling Stone, and not only Rolling Stone, but also Vanity Fair for a few minutes.
- [51:38]
Bella
Because when you went to Vanity Fair, you said, a cover is a thankless dilemma and it isn't really a photograph. And, you know, we all used to wait for those covers. And, you know, how you got all those people together, and they were so exciting. What did you mean?
- [51:56]
Annie Leibovitz
You can even imagine going to an art school, you know, the San Francisco Art. Art Institute, and really learning Cartier, Bresson, Robert Frank, and then, you know, sort of coming, you know, being around other photographers who really. Art photographers who didn't believe in selling their work. I saw the possibilities in it. I saw in this, you know, what turns out to be. I mean, Rolling Stone was an incredible run, but at Rolling Stone also, when it moved to New York, it wanted. I remember Jan saying to me, I want to do all white backgrounds for the covers. And I looked at him and I just, you know, I don't know. It was inevitably is sort of. It's a hard world to be in and try to do something in. And I've weathered it all these years because I. The five or six or seven or eight times a year that something is kind of incredible comes out of it where you can do something with it. Although it's. It's a tough landscape. Like, it's. You know, it can be extremely difficult. And the covers particularly, you know, I did begin to, like. I don't want to be responsible for, you know, if this magazine sells or not. I don't really want to. You know, I certainly don't want to be blamed if it doesn't sell. You know, I mean, it's. It's inevitably becomes about business. And, you know, you're trying so hard to do something good or important or breaks through or does something. Which is why I began to not really be interested in the covers at all, you know.
- [54:10]
Bella
Because when they came out, they were almost like miniseries in one shot. I mean, there was just so much going on and so many, so much story that seeing them, like waiting to see what the next cover, how you would have the next reaction. I mean, the covers are difficult.
- [54:29]
Annie Leibovitz
I just remembering that I was so excited when I did Steve Martin against the Franz Lyon painting.
- [54:35]
Bella
Yeah, yeah.
- [54:36]
Annie Leibovitz
And it was the worst selling cover Rolling Stone they ever had. Do you know what I mean? Because he wasn't recognized, he wasn't recognizable. He wasn't big enough.
- [54:47]
Bella
Yeah.
- [54:47]
Annie Leibovitz
You know, it was really. I mean, because I, I thought I had a really, really good idea about how to maybe use this conceptual work to create an interesting cover.
- [55:02]
Bella
Yeah.
- [55:02]
Annie Leibovitz
And I was interested in that for, for a bit. But it's, it's, it's done. It's done. It's still people, you know, and I don't know where magazines are now. Yeah, I know. I mean, online is interesting. It's not uninteresting. It was interesting when photographs began to go online because I was so used to having to deal with a gutter, you know, with, you know, you couldn't put anyone in the middle because in a magazine, like there'd be the right side and the left side and then you can't. If you put someone in the middle, they would fall in the gutter. So now, you know, because photographs are online. You're, as a photographer, you're. You're being given back the middle of the picture. You know, again, really, my books, My books are where my. Yeah, my books are really where, where my work is. And Photographer's Life is probably my favorite book. And, and this book on women is, Is so meaningful to me now. I mean, it's. I'm going to sleep. Has anyone ever fallen asleep here?
- [56:18]
Bella
No, not yet.
- [56:21]
Annie Leibovitz
I had one person fall asleep when I was photographing him. I think Arthur Schlesinger. He literally started sleeping, you know.
- [56:27]
Bella
Gosh, that's interesting because when you were a child, did you ever long for a particular garment or something that you felt would consolidate your identity? Did you have an obsession. Obsession with any piece of clothing? Because you have such a look? I wondered did it.
- [56:46]
Annie Leibovitz
No, I mean, my, I think my look is a non. Look. I mean, I, I think.
- [56:49]
Bella
Oh, it's very distinguished. It's the look of a soldier and agility that's.
- [56:55]
Annie Leibovitz
Oh.
- [56:56]
Bella
Combined into your look.
- [56:57]
Annie Leibovitz
No one's ever said that, but they. No, I like that. I mean, when I had my children, I wanted to, to Try to, you know, dress up occasionally. So. And, But I, I don't know. Thank you. I mean, but as a child, I mean, we, We. We were always. We didn't have much money, you know, and so we couldn't really afford. We, we bought our clothes, like, if you can imagine being in Fairbanks, Alaska, we bought them from Montgomery Ward and Sears and Roebuck catalogs, you know.
- [57:31]
Bella
Right, right.
- [57:32]
Annie Leibovitz
So. And then by the time I made it through to suburban Washington, D.C. for my high school years, we really couldn't afford good clothes. I was really impressed when, when the Gap came along.
- [57:49]
Bella
Oh, yeah.
- [57:49]
Annie Leibovitz
And people could have. Everyone could afford clothing, you know. You know, that, that was kind of fashionable and not. And I did, you know, I was really proud of that series, you know, the early Gap portraits.
- [58:06]
Bella
Oh, they were fantastic.
- [58:08]
Annie Leibovitz
You're making, Making clothes available.
- [58:10]
Bella
Yeah, they were so glad. They, they were gorgeous. I loved those. I mean, they were like, again, like your covers, you know, when you saw them on the side of a bus, you thought, oh, this is really exciting. I wondered if you. If you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?
- [58:36]
Annie Leibovitz
Well, I'd like to see how people dress. I love to see how people dress. I, I do think it's part of the portrait. I'm not. I don't underestimate the power of how people dress. I'm interested in how people dress. I mean, look at Diane Keaton. I admired her. I mean, I do think what's happening now in fashion is kind of amazing. I really feel like many people have taken back how they want to see themselves and how they want to dress and how they look. And I love this, this time right now in fashion, because there's so much available in so many ways to dress, you know, and express yourself. And I think in, in this period of, of kind of like, difficult times, I think fashion is. Is certainly a, you know, a way out, you know, to, to give us ourselves some relief. I'm. I'm impressed with fashion. I'm impressed with us being able to, you know, dress ourselves the way we want to see ourselves. I mean, there was a moment when, you know, doing the work for the magazines, they would dress people and they would address the subject and the subject and you would lose who the person was.
- [60:05]
Bella
And.
- [60:05]
Annie Leibovitz
And I just am so impressed with us that we've. And this is going to be true about every. I think this is true about everything. It comes back around that there's so much out there in fashion to define yourself. And I Think it's wonderful. I just think it's. Don't you think?
- [60:28]
Bella
I completely agree. I mean even, you know what you're wearing today and you're wearing Daniel Rosebery and you're wearing this shirt that's actually shredded at the elbow and that you had made 20 years ago and the boots and you know, and it's a, it's about. You can just use it as resource and like notice that your identity responds to certain ways of putting things together and then mess about. Whereas there's not, there's no. The formality is gone of what was supposed to happen. And that's, that's so exciting, isn't it?
- [61:07]
Annie Leibovitz
It is exciting. It is exciting. I mean that the other thing that's kept us alive is comedy. Yes. You know, I mean it's like when Saturday Night live did their 50th anniversary. I mean, I'm sorry, but I mean it's so different. When I came into London a few days ago, I went, oh my God, it's. It feels so good here. You know, it's like, you know, people are kind of normal. I mean.
- [61:33]
Bella
Yeah.
- [61:33]
Annie Leibovitz
You don't realize how oppressive it is in America today. I just wanted. I just had a comment on that.
- [61:41]
Bella
You've made some of the most recognizable images in the world, like naked Demi Moore and Queen Elizabeth and, and of course John and Yoko. But you did this amazing campaign, a government funded campaign for Got Milk? And with everyone sporting a milk mustache from Kate Moss and Venus and Serena Williams. And it has so much charming. I remember that.
- [62:08]
Annie Leibovitz
You're so funny. It was like I kept telling them, you know, you don't have to hire me to do this. This is, this is ridiculous because you know, you just, you know, put, you know, put a mustache on any, any picture you want.
- [62:21]
Bella
Exactly.
- [62:21]
Annie Leibovitz
Because we did actually, did. We actually did try to make the mustache out of something that if you accident accidentally licked it, you wouldn't keel over and die from poison. Like it was. Wasn't. It was actually yogurt and milk and really. And everything else. Yeah.
- [62:40]
Bella
It's because I think it's very charming when a girl wears a moustache. And I've often gone out as my party look, I like dressing as a boy if I have to do fancy dress. And a moustache is just like the most exciting thing. I wondered if you'd ever gone out with a moustache. It was such a genius because you captured. It was like everyone became kids but in this, this kind of somewhere in between adult and, and like teenage rebellion and between boy and girl. And you. You got so much in that in those portraits.
- [63:23]
Annie Leibovitz
I never saw it like that. You know, it was, it was definitely more play playful for sure, you know, than, than anything else. But yeah, I think people had a chance to play, you know, for sure.
- [63:40]
Bella
It was very effective too. I mean, Kate Moss with the milk mustache, you, you thought, I want. I mean, I hate milk myself, but you want to go out and you want to be like that and you want. And it also reminds you that you can have like a mucky. You can do something wrong and it actually is fine, or it looks charming or you suddenly have something on your face and instead of being this terrible faux pas, it's actually kind of quite attractive.
- [64:11]
Annie Leibovitz
I don't know why, but it's leading me to think about the bearded lady in the first, in the first book, you know, I really wanted to photograph her, and she was. That's in the, in the Sontag volume. And, and, and I, I wanted her to, to pose naked with, with, with the, you know, with her beard. And she was, she. She refused. She said, I don't have to prove that I'm a woman by taking my clothes off, you know, because you were.
- [64:47]
Bella
Deeply involved with Susan Sontag and shared a.15 years until she died. And you said you've described her as being quite critical and hard on you. And I wondered if that was how she showed her love.
- [65:03]
Annie Leibovitz
I say it, I do say it in a loving way, I have to tell you, because what I mean, you know, obviously doing this book, doing the reissue of, of the first women's book and then doing the second book, you know, it does bring Susan back. And there's a. In the first book, on the title page, there's a photograph of my mother opposite the title page that was done for the women's book from 1999 in the New issue. I put the. This portrait of Susan there that was taken on Decay in Paris and from the apartment she had for a couple years, you know, before she died. And it's a funny picture because, you know, we're talking about John and Yoko, that picture. But when I took it, she was mad at me because she, she didn't want to go outside to take the picture. And, and I said, you know, the light's really nice outside. You really have to go outside. So. So she's look, she's looking at me and, and she's mad at me. And as years have passed, I look at, I looked at it and think, well, she, I know she's mad at me in this picture. But she's, she's really very strong and in this picture and she looks very intelligent and she looks, you know, she looks very strong. And so I, I, I put it on the, on the, you know, opposite the title page. So I'm in these bookstores signing these books and I have to look at Susan being mad at me every single time I sign, sign the book. I look across and I go, you know, she's, I know she's mad at me, but she, Susan, you look really, this picture has changed over the years. You know, it's not, it's actually a very good, strong picture of you, Susan. Yeah, it's just an amusing little story. But you know, Susan, when I met Susan, I was, you know, late 80s, early 90s, it was, it was sort of, it was the beginning of, the, sort of the end of that period of the Vanity Fair. Tina Brown, you know, kind of over the top popular work. And, and, and I'd come out of Rolling Stone and, and I was always a little cocky and a little silly and you know, Susan, you know, wanted me to be more serious, you know, and because she was serious and although she would, she certainly had her, you know, her silly sides as well, but she wanted, when it came to work, it was serious. You know, she would get sort of pissed at me about, about certain things, you know, and I've been talking about this a little bit more just because, because of reprinting, printing, reprinting the book. But you know, she, she would say, why don't you shoot more photographs? You know, like why? Most photographers I know, when they walk down the street, they just shoot pictures. Why aren't you shooting? I'm not a, I really am not a street photographer. I'm very, you know, you know, sort of a one on one photographer. So you know, she would say things like that or I would come back from a shoot and she would say, I hope you didn't put someone in bed again. You know, it's like, you know, you have too many pictures of people lying in bed, you know. You know, and I started to look at, oh, there's Brad Pitt in bed and there's this person, of course, Peter Usher's. I was thinking about Peter Uzart's picture of her lying. Wonderful. Yeah. In that bed. It's actually the best picture of her. I love that photograph of her. She's so amazing because she was a.
- [69:25]
Bella
Hardcore intellectual, but I read that she was the one that wanted to go to the cheesy films and Oh, I.
- [69:32]
Annie Leibovitz
Know she knew and want to see Water World or something. And I was like, oh my God. Yeah, you know, but you know, it'd be a sunny Sunday afternoon and we, we'd go see like a nine hour German film on, you know, something. And I said, that's it. I'm not going. I'm not, I'm not going. I am not going in to, to see a nine hour film any longer on, you know, anyway. No, yeah, she was, but she, she would arrive. I mean, what, you know, I, I mean she was amazing to be with. I, she was so. I wish she was around today, you know, just to help tell us what's going on.
- [70:23]
Bella
It's your job now, showing us. But you also said, you talked about like having. Not having two lives and how, you know things. You said I don't have two lives and the personal pictures and the assignment work of it.
- [70:43]
Annie Leibovitz
You don't. You really aren't thinking that sounds so dumb now, you know, like have two lives, you know, like, I don't know. Where did that come from? I think I was trying to justify the book. You know, It was an interesting exercise to put the assignment work in there with my day to day life. You know, my father died, my children were being born, Susan died. It was, it was, you know, we talked about. It was, it was sort of, that book was sort of my year of magical thinking, you know, that kind of, you know, insanity that happens when all that stuff is going on. But so I tried. I wasn't too sure I could do it, you know, that I could put those very personal pictures with Colin Powell or, you know, you know, the Bush administration or something, you know, like, it's just, it's in. I just didn't know if it would, if it would work. I, I'm not too sure it does. But they, they, they kind of help each other in some way where you, you don't, you're not going so much into. But they, but literally that, that is what was happening, you know, like.
- [72:07]
Bella
Yeah, at the same time, I must.
- [72:09]
Annie Leibovitz
Say that was happening. That's happening.
- [72:11]
Bella
I mean, because my father never differentiated between work and life was work. That was what he loved and cared about more than anything. So, you know, he talked about work, but there wasn't something else that happened apart from sleeping and eating, but that was part of work. And even family life was part of work. And so, so when you said that, I thought, Yeah, I thought I know what you were talking about.
- [72:43]
Annie Leibovitz
It's true. I don't. You never, you Never stop seeing or framing or. You know, it doesn't turn on and off like that. It's always on. You know, It's always on. You know, it doesn't stop because you.
- [73:11]
Bella
Took photographs of Susan on her deathbed. And I always remember my dad going to the hospital where his mother died and say, I'm going to go in and do a drawing. And I dropped him off. We must have been working together together. And I dropped him off in a cab, and it was like 11 or 12 at night, and he disappeared inside and he did the drawing of his mother and. And I've got photographs of my father when he. When he was dead, and I find them very beautiful. And. And it feels natural at the time as well. And I. And I wondered how it feels to revisit which you're. You're just talking about that photograph of Susan next to the introduction that you're with the. With the book now. And how does it feel to look back at those photos?
- [74:13]
Annie Leibovitz
Well, I'm very proud of. Of that book, Photographer's Life. I don't know if I. It's one thing to do it for yourself, but then to publish it. I don't know. I know that I heard from a lot of people who. It gave them the strength to photograph their mother or their loved one or, you know, because. Because it is. It definitely feels. It's a difficult, you know, thing to do. I know that I was encouraged by Susan, you know, that she wanted to be photographed. And, you know, I admire her, you know, you know, for that. She wanted me to be a good photographer. She wanted me to do the best that I could do.
- [75:28]
Bella
Yeah.
- [75:28]
Annie Leibovitz
She wanted me to be the best I could be, and she didn't want. So I think on some level, a lot of. Yeah. But as I said, I think I would think twice about it now. You know, on some level, I mean, you're definitely in a place when all of that is going on, And on some level, you're kind of happy to have your work. You know, when that is happening, it gives you a purpose, you know, a reason to be standing there, or.
- [76:31]
Bella
Yeah, that's true. Well, thank you so much, Annie, for. For being on Fashion Neurosis. And it's been so wonderful to talk to you and think about that moment, actually, because when you were just saying that, I thought that moment is so involved in waiting for something, someone to die. And it's such a weird thing to be doing, even, you know, that's the best thing that could happen at that particular time. But It's. It's wonderful to be able to see what you've done and for it to mean something.
- [77:16]
Annie Leibovitz
It's. It's part of life, you know? I mean, when you get old, too, it's as much part of life as being born. And it's kind of incredible. It's a privilege. It's really a privilege and an honor.
- [77:40]
Bella
Thank you so much for being here, Sa.