Loading summary
Transcript149 lines
- [00:00]
A
AI.
- [00:03]
B
Had the time of my life. A I never felt this way before. From building timelines to assigning the right people, and even spotting risks across dozens of projects, Monday Sidekick knows your business, thinks ahead, and takes action. One click on the star and consider it done.
- [00:22]
A
And I owe it all to you.
- [00:25]
B
Try Monday Sidekick. AI you'll love to use on Monday.com. If you get mad every time you pick up your phone and start scrolling, it's not just you. Rage, babe is kind of the currency or the power that's behind a lot of the content we might see this week on Explain it to me from Vox why the Internet is pissing you off on purpose. New episodes Sundays. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:10]
C
Hi, come up. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Debbie Harry.
- [01:19]
A
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
- [01:22]
C
Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
- [01:28]
A
You know, I've watched several of your interviews and, you know, it's always intriguing to hear what people were wearing. So I wore, I guess, a strange combination of elements. The shoes are from Comme des Garcons, and they're sort of a mashup that they did with Nike. And I think they've done several of these. So I love these platforms because they're ridiculous and clever and fun and also extremely practical somehow, because I like to wear platforms. But yet these are also trainers with a platform. So I thought, oh, this is ch just for me. Really?
- [02:23]
C
Yeah.
- [02:25]
A
And the pants are Y3 from years ago, but some of my favorites. And they're so comfortable. The sweater is sort of a non, non denominational sweater, but it's, it's an argyle and I, I love argyle. And then the T shirt is from Zach Posen.
- [02:48]
C
Oh, I love Zach.
- [02:50]
A
It's just real standard, reliable white T shirt. And then my little bag over here on the side also comes from Comme des Garcons. And it's what I'm using for my makeup bag. I put all my stuff in there, and it's just a nice little velvet sack and it's such a beautiful color and it's got this rose configuration. It's all fabric on. On one side. So that's my combination for today.
- [03:24]
C
It's really cool. It's quite parallel lines, your color scheme today, actually, it's like the black and white.
- [03:30]
A
And yes, I think it is parallel lines in many ways. So I like that you use that because, you know, of the black and white, the color scheme, but also, by the way, that some of these, you know, pieces of clothing have come into my life. And for a long. For a long time I lived on 23rd street and on 22nd street there is Comme des Garcons store. And when I first started living in that area, there were no stores there that were interesting or, you know, they had real, real fashion, real clothes in the. And Comme des Garcons was the only one. So of course I was fascinated and I would wander in there just to, I don't know, steal ideas, get clothes, you know, it was a beautifully designed store. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it was sort of like walking into the mouth of a fish.
- [04:36]
C
Oh, really? So eccentric, so beautiful.
- [04:44]
A
You know, I would pick up little things there and, I don't know, just was a part of my routine of, you know, if I was to go out walking, that would be one of the places that I would definitely want to go to.
- [04:58]
C
Yeah, I love the bag as well, because it's kind of so feminine. All the. The red velvet and then it's like a container for femininity. It looks really good with the black and white.
- [05:14]
A
And, you know, I found, honestly that when you're going on the road a lot, that having a good black and white wardrobe is so reliable. You don't have to have a lot of different outfits, but you can have a good basis for many outfits and, you know, sort of always look kind of. Even if your clothes haven't been to the laundry for a while, you always sort of have a fresh look.
- [05:43]
C
Yeah.
- [05:44]
A
You know, so I'm used to that, you know, after all these many years of traveling and touring, I think you find that in a lot of our wardrobes, you know, people that are in bands, a lot of black and white, very clear cut kind of looks. The only person I know who travels with an extensive. Well, that I know, Cyndi Lauper, who travels with many, many bags of wonderful, wonderful clothing. She's practical and flamboyant and impractical all at the same time.
- [06:23]
C
That's a very good mixture. She's so fantastic. And you are the legendary Debbie Harry. You were the lead singer of Blondie, one of the most successful bands in the world. And people are obsessed with you as a sex symbol. And you said sex appeal comes from a person, not a body. It comes from the power of positive thinking. And I wondered what is sexy to you?
- [06:55]
A
I think it has to do with, Oddly enough, with kindness and generosity and also something that's very animal. Animal, you know, that just radiates from a person and it is about generosity. I don't know, I guess a certain sense of simplicity and I don't know, it can be a lot of things. I don't know if there's a simple way to describe that kind of sexuality.
- [07:39]
C
Yeah, I think generosity, I agree with that because it's to do with kind of being disarmed by people's good qualities, isn't it? Like kindness and humor and then the animal comes out and then it's all happening. And you were adopted at three months. And in your memoir, face it, the doctor said you were a very attractive baby, which seemed like a really weird remark, but maybe a premise of what was to come. And I wondered how you are at taking a compliment.
- [08:16]
A
I guess I've learned, you know, as a, you know, a professional person, as a, you know, I've had to learn to be gracious. I'm not always sure that compliments many times are double edged and, but being gracious is saved me from some, you know, perhaps situations that were unkind or perhaps, I don't know, I think it's always too better to sort of rise to a level of, you know, being, having, having some of that graciousness somehow.
- [09:10]
C
Because I've noticed in your interviews you've always been very polite to people, especially men who ask quite invasive questions. And I really noticed how you deflected the invasiveness of that with your gracious kind of elegance. And it was like a kind of a transparent shield that you kept around you, but very sort of Southern, just sort of good, good manners. And you said you used to fantasize about Marilyn Monroe being your mother. And I wondered what kind of relationship did you fantasize about having and what were you doing together?
- [10:01]
A
I don't know if I ever went that far with my fantasy, but I think what I enjoyed about her was her, you know, her silliness, you know, and here she was in this highly pressurized position in a very competitive industry and a little girl from nowhere pretty much. Yet she was always sweet and childish in many ways, but yet very sophisticated. And she would come up with some real crackling responses. But they were delivered well, they were delivered nicely. And I always thought this was a genius, you know, a sign of genius.
- [11:01]
C
Is that where you took some of your kind of way of handling people's comments about you in interviews?
- [11:09]
A
I think I can only aspire to that, you know, and I think it's hard not to respond, you know, with your, know, initial emotional response is to sort of defend yourself, you know, or to scratch Back. But to, you know, to be. To make the best of a situation. I have to also give a lot of credit to my partner and former intimate partner, Chris Stein, because he's such a wit and, you know, he can just do this. He seems to have an endless way of deflection and making something cool out of something that could really turn into, you know, something very ugly.
- [12:10]
C
Yeah.
- [12:12]
A
So I've had some good. I've had some good teachers.
- [12:16]
C
Yeah. And you seem. You strike me as someone with a lot of courage. And does that come from nurture or from having to fend for yourself?
- [12:27]
A
I think there's a lot, A lot that goes into courage, and it has to do with a defense mechanism, sort of desperation to understand and know yourself. Stubbornness. A good amount of stubbornness and curiosity.
- [13:08]
C
Yeah. I worked for Vivienne Westwood in Seditionaries when I was a teenager. And I remember one day we saw you walking past and we so wanted you to come in and did you.
- [13:24]
A
Ever shop there down at World's End.
- [13:27]
C
Before, when it was Seditionaries, back in the punk days? Cause I remember seeing you and we were like, there's Debbie Harry and you. I think you were even wearing a beret.
- [13:39]
A
Talk about courage or lack of courage. I mean, I was completely in awe of Vivienne Westwood and the shop. And I did eventually go into the store and, you know, I would just. Was just like getting a wonderful eyeful. You know, it was just like eye candy to walk in there and to, you know, see what was going on and see all of her wonderful things.
- [14:13]
C
Did you buy anything?
- [14:15]
A
No, I never had any money in the early days, so I would just go in and I would drool over everything.
- [14:25]
C
It was really intimidating. That shot totally. And we were kind of, you know, kind of a bit smug about being these scowling figures because you had to walk right into the shop to get to the. To the reception and there was, you know, three sulking teens waiting to. Actually. We were really friendly when someone actually walked through the door. But so many people reference you as a fashion inspiration. And your way of dressing has always been so imaginative and inventive. And I read you made a dress from a zebra print pillowcase once. And I. Was there someone you first looked to for style ideas who influenced your kind of the beginning of your curiosity?
- [15:22]
A
I think my relationship to clothes started quite young, when I was quite young, especially to color. And originally my mother dressed me as a boy. Really? Yeah. So I was always a little girl, sort of dressed in overalls and little t. Shirts and rugged shoes. You know, I wasn't dressed as a girly girl. I was dressed as a sort of a cute boy. And that suited me. Yeah, I never even noticed it. I never even thought about it until I was much older and, you know, talking with people and my friends and realizing that, oh, I was always dressed as a cute boy, a little boy. And then I think it didn't really start until, you know, when I guess I was in grade school and I started getting girly clothes that were given to me by my mother's friends who had daughters that, you know, outgrew their clothes. And so I started. That sort of really scared me, actually. That scared me.
- [16:50]
C
What scared you?
- [16:53]
A
Why did it scare me?
- [16:54]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [16:57]
A
Because it was a new aspect of my own self. And who was that? Who was that? Wow. It's another person.
- [17:10]
C
Yeah.
- [17:12]
A
So it was thrilling and wonderful and pretty and wow. You know, I mean, I always admired the girls that I went to school with who were, you know, very girly. Yeah, I always admired them. And I wondered, you know, I sort of wondered how they did it. And then suddenly I was able to do it. Wow. So. So it was a bigger world, you know. A bigger world. Wonderful.
- [17:42]
C
Because you have the ability to appear very self contained. And is that a stance you perfected for self preservation, to deal with people's obsessive curiosity about you?
- [17:56]
A
I guess I think of it all as some kind of a survival mechanism, A girl's survival mechanism.
- [18:10]
C
Because in your memoir, Face it, you wrote about being raped at gunpoint and in your own home by an intruder. And you write in a detached way, as though you're holding it at a great distance. And you said, I don't want to feel like a victim. And I wondered, what do you do with traumatic feelings of loss and abandonment? And I wondered whether you used heroin to flatten those feelings.
- [18:42]
A
I think it is a combination of those things. I think it was sort of a necessary period in my life when I used heroin. But I also had a habit of sort of stepping outside of myself and observing. So I think to people that may have been with me at the time or sort of aware of what was going on, it would seem that I was not really involved. But I think I just took a sort of different perspective from myself to be an observer as well as a participant. And I think as a performer, you know, that this is a safety net or, you know, I guess a tool, I think, to, you know, being able to develop characters and to understand my own character. I don't know If I can really explain it any other way, except that it's always been a way, a way to perhaps just understand myself. But I think as an actor that it is really very natural. Very natural, yeah.
- [20:32]
C
Because people, like when I was talking to Kate Moss about when she gets dressed, she says she likes to have a character and then build her look around that. And I. There is just this quality that you have of detachment that is kind of very alluring as well, because everyone is so kind of spellbound and captivated by your amazing appearance. And then it's like you kind of detach from it and what you were describing of being almost an onlooker of yourself. And I know that you've stopped taking heroin, but that's one of its qualities to, you know, stop feeling self conscious. And how did you manage to stop taking it? Because it's famously so addictive and so successfully kind of.
- [21:41]
A
How did I manage to stop taking heroin? It was a long process. I didn't. I sort of liked the feeling of it and it served me well for a while, but then it started not serving me well and it was. It sort of destroyed itself. It self destructed in a way. And it was painful physically to stop, but a great relief at the same time because I wasn't getting what I wanted. And all of the pain and pressure of, you know, getting heroin and surviving in that world became worthless. You know, it just was. It didn't work. It was impractical, it didn't work. And as bad as it made me feel to stop physically, it made me, you know, in the long run, just better off without it and smarter. And I really like. I like that. I like smart. You know, I am not really a super smart person with a great natural intelligence, but I think I can learn things really well. And that's very satisfying. Very satisfying.
- [23:22]
C
You certainly seem like a smart. I mean, you are a smart person. I mean, that's dazzlingly obvious to everyone else. But I suppose part of being rigorous is like to be self censoring in a way. But you've had a few narrow escapes.
- [23:44]
A
Like.
- [23:46]
C
You were hitchhiking in New York City and got picked up by Ted Bundy and you managed to escape. And how did you know what to do in such a frightening situation? Because to be in that much danger is often paralyzing. But you manage to escape from a serial killer.
- [24:14]
A
You know, and I've been debunked about this. You know, I've been debunked. I've been. Probably been one of the Most debunked people in the world today. By now, anyway. No, I. I guess I have good instincts, you know, and I. I like. I like animal instincts. I. I trust them. And I don't know why, but I guess it's a survival mechanism. I think it really goes back to a quite elemental stage in my existence, you know, being adopted as an infant. Yeah, I understand trauma in a very, very personal, deep way. My core. My core of understanding fear and trauma is amazing. It's just totally amazing. And it's taken me a long time to really understand that, and I don't. I sort of. I sometimes wonder if I'm fantasizing about all of this, but it served me well, whether it's fantasy or whether it's truth, you know, to understand my core. And that comes from a trauma as an infant and a great sense of fear, of being separated from my natural mother and being put into a situation with different creatures that sounded different, that looked different, that smell different in every aspect. And this is. I can't explain it any other way, that I have learned to trust my animal nature and my senses, my physical senses. And I think that for the most part, the way that we grow up, we are disarmed of these instincts. And some of us, myself included, had to have them.
- [26:36]
C
Yeah.
- [26:37]
A
And I fought to have them. And I wish that I had more of them. And I don't know if I could. I've always wanted to be able to study, you know, instincts in a way that I don't know if we're actually taught to, you know, use our instincts. Because we don't live in a primitive world. We live in a very complicated, technological sophisticated world. And a lot of we don't need them. We don't need these instincts. But I think they're really important in ways that. Really affect intelligence and human nature. You know, human nature is very, very important. I don't know. I could ramble on about this, and it's all guesswork, really, but I feel like this is something that I think is very, very beautiful and wonderful.
- [27:51]
C
Yeah, well, it's true, I think. You know, that's interesting, that thing you said about. I don't know if I'm imagining it or not, but it doesn't almost really matter because it makes complete sense about what your experience of being, you know, taken or your mother giving you up. And that was after three months. So you. You were already attached. So, I mean, I suppose what's good is that you had the fight and flight alive in you and not the Freeze. So you managed to escape, and you managed to achieve all these incredible things. And then I also read that you shot guns with William Burroughs. I wondered how that came about.
- [28:48]
A
Well, we lived on the Bowery. Chris and I lived on the Bowery, and we had a. I don't know, we got very lucky in some odd circumstances. And we met a writer from sort of, you know, the scene. Victor Bachris.
- [29:13]
C
Oh, yes.
- [29:14]
A
Yeah. And he's quite a wonderful character and terrific writer and great conversationalist, and, you know, he invited us over to John Giorno, the poet, to his loft, which was down on the Bowery a few blocks south of where we were. And. And it was in this wonderful old building that at one time was a ymca. And it was odd building that was made with very thick, thick, thick cement walls and floors, because it was shower rooms and gymnasiums and all kinds of, you know, floors and activities that needed to have a superstructure. And. And so John lived in one of the floors that was, you know, and they called it the bunker. Right. So we went down there to meet William, and Chris was in heaven. I mean, he was just in heaven. And, you know, he and Bill had a lot of similar fascination with weapons. And, you know, Chris had a marvelous edged weapon collection, you know, and so, you know, he had swords and knives and guns and, you know, all. Well, not the guns or edged weapons, but, you know, he loved weaponry. And so he and Bill had a lot of the same interests. And, of course, you know, Burrows, fascinating character, you know, wonderful, intelligent person. And he and Chris got along wonderfully well. They became friends, very good friends. And so, I don't know, I guess we were out in Kansas for a show, and I don't know, I don't remember the exact chronology of events of how. Whether Chris had gone to Bill's place in Kansas many times or whether it was just that one time when we were playing with Blondie and we. We got invited over, and that's how we started shooting. We went into Bill's barn and he hung up some targets, and we got to go shooting with Bill. Pretty fabulous.
- [31:38]
C
Yeah.
- [31:39]
A
Yeah.
- [31:41]
C
My ex husband, James, he has a target practice where he went shooting with Bill, and they both signed it, and there's some holes in. That's really great.
- [31:54]
A
Yeah. I have my sign target somewhere.
- [31:58]
C
Yeah.
- [31:59]
A
Yeah. At this stage, actually, since I'm not on the road so much, and I'm trying to wade through volumes of things that I've saved through the years, it's a challenge. Yeah.
- [32:25]
C
And Andy Warhol made some of his most beautiful work featuring you. And I actually own a Polaroid of you that he took. Oh, yeah, I have it. And you said he was a tough nut to crack. And I wondered what he talked to you about.
- [32:44]
A
Well, I mean, that's one of the things that I really learned from Andy is that more than a talker, that he was a great listener. And that is a really, really valuable asset. And I think that that's another thing that I learned from my small brush with acting, is that, you know, to listen is the. Probably the most important part of acting, is the listening part, and to let that, you know, really soak into you and to respond. So Andy, you know, famous for saying, oh, really? Oh, really. You know, he. That was one of his phrases, right?
- [33:38]
C
Yeah.
- [33:39]
A
His phrase, oh, really? And how many ways you can say that and, you know, be present in a great conversation by just saying really? And wanting to know more.
- [33:54]
C
Yeah, yeah. Did. Was there an expectation on you to tell him interesting things? Did it make you more imaginative and more kind of mischievous in your stories?
- [34:11]
A
I mean, I feel like I don't really know that much about Andy, and I wish that I had had a chance to become more of a friend and more of an intimate friend. I feel like I was an acquaintance with a view to becoming a friend. And. I think he was, you know, he was terrific for me. He was always wonderful, and. I would have. I would have loved to hear him, you know, talk a little bit more. But he was also, like you, very soft spoken and. But again, very, you know, I know he was very chatty with a lot of people, but he was also a tremendous listener, and I found that very valuable.
- [35:15]
C
Yeah, I love his work. I find it endlessly inspiring and interesting. And, yeah, I really love the way he catches light in all, like, in his paintings. And you described how he'd made your pupils. The light reflection in the portrait he did of you, and he'd made your pupils into hearts.
- [35:43]
A
I didn't realize that. The thing about the reflection in the pupils, I didn't realize that until much later on when there was a big show downtown at the Whitney. And I was shocked. I was, you know, gobsmacked, as they say. And then I started really investigating. And I realized then also that in all of his portraits, every single one, the whites of the eyes were not white.
- [36:20]
C
Oh, what were they?
- [36:23]
A
Flesh.
- [36:25]
C
Gosh.
- [36:26]
A
Really?
- [36:27]
C
I'm gonna have another look.
- [36:29]
A
I know. And when I told this. I told this to my friend Johnny, and he said, oh, no, that can't be right. And you know, of course, then he went and looked and he came back and said, you're right. And you. For years and years and years, I mean, you never even thought of it. And then all of a sudden I realized it was all the same.
- [36:55]
C
God, I can't wait to look. Now, that's fascinating.
- [37:00]
A
Well, I mean, if you find some that are white, please tell me, because I have to know. You know, you sort of. Sometimes you think about, you know, you find something like that and you think, oh, I must be wrong. I must be wrong.
- [37:14]
C
Yeah, because there's something about the hair in all of Andy Warhol's films and photographs and his paintings. And he has this thing, especially in the Silver, you know, the Black and White, those short films that he did, which I particularly love. And there's this kind of. This reflection on blonde hair, especially. And one of my favorite lines from one of your songs, atomic, is your hair is beautiful. And then you have this amazing hair and you had this blonde hair and also with this black hair in the back. And Anita Pallenberg had that, too. And I wondered how you came up with that look.
- [38:07]
A
So silly. It really is so silly. How? Well, I mean, I was always fascinated with the silver screen thing, you know, the image and the blonde and the sexuality and how exciting it was and how beautiful it was and yet how innocent it was.
- [38:23]
C
Yeah.
- [38:24]
A
And the black in the back. I think during the punk, you know, in the early. Early on, people were much more creative with it because it was a free for all, basically. It was just, you know, some kind of madness and rebellion and all of this mixture of things. Practically speaking, for me, being on the road all the time, I couldn't do the back of my hair.
- [38:59]
C
Yeah.
- [38:59]
A
I couldn't. I couldn't see it. I couldn't do it. I could only do, you know, this sort of cap area, you know, and so that's sort of where it came from. It was very practical, very simple, inadequate abilities as a hairdresser. And so that's it. And I never went to the hairdresser all those years because of being on the road all the time and really not knowing who I could go to or who I could trust to do it. And it didn't bother me. I had a short working experience in a salon in. In New Jersey, and so I could do the basics.
- [39:48]
C
Yeah.
- [39:49]
A
And. And that's what I did.
- [39:51]
C
Oh, it's very effective because it's so kind of playful and. And so punk, obviously, and. And so innocent. You know, you talked about innocence and it's Part of that. That, you know, what you see in the mirror.
- [40:09]
A
Yeah.
- [40:10]
C
That's all, really, that matters, and the rest can take care of itself and.
- [40:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, for me, falling into the punk era was basically some kind of miracle that I sort of. For inadequacies, many inadequacies in my own, you know, personality, my own artistic little, whatever, tilted world, you know, it suited me perfectly.
- [40:46]
C
It really did suit you. I mean. Yeah, you were just so luminous in it, and it was very, very touching. And I never saw you in that back. I just sort of missed you in that day. And then I saw you much later, like about 20 years ago or something. But all those photographs of you and NME and these kind of incredible little playsuits and. And you. Your beauty was just like, you know, just so. Kind of devastating, and yet there was no artifice about you. Just seemed so kind of so free and so adorable and charming and so. And then this voice of, like, this beautiful clarity that came from you. And, I mean, you just made such an. I know. You know this, but, like, even my dad was, like, obsessed with it. He thought you were wonderful. He was lit. He used to listen to Fats Waller and, you know, people like that.
- [42:00]
A
Oh, gosh, Fats Waller was one of my favorites.
- [42:03]
C
Yeah.
- [42:04]
A
Great. Wow. But I thank you for those nice compliments. That was very, very sweet of you. Thank you.
- [42:11]
C
It's all true because you worked with the designer, Stephen Sprouse, and you said he was militant about your wardrobe on tours, and he really understood what looked great on you. And I met Stephen Sprouse when I. In the 90s, and we were both working in Italy in this factory. And he drew me a Christmas card with a drawing of a speaker on, like, really black and, you know, very Steven Sprouse. And he had this. I mean, I. Yeah, he was wonderful. And I wondered what it was about him that you trusted so much.
- [42:53]
A
Well, I might want to throw this back at you in a way. I mean, you've dressed a lot of people, and how do you gain their trust?
- [43:10]
C
I suppose it's what you said. He got you. And the way he dressed you, it was just like you were made for each other. And he invented these things for you that you just radiated in. And he was so specific as well. I. I remember he would be really old school. We were in this sort of factory place, but he wouldn't let anyone see his fittings or his clothes. And no one was allowed into the room when Stephen was doing his fittings. And I Thought it was great. You know, I would never have dared to say someone couldn't look, but he was totally right, you know, and he was.
- [44:01]
A
I.
- [44:01]
C
It was when he. He come, you know, after. When he'd work with you, and then he did a new. You know, he was refund. You know, he was funded by this. This Italian company, and. And then later, he did the things with Marc Jacobs that were so great with his writing. I always remember this such sweet thing that he. There was a young woman that worked in the factory, and she had a baby, and he just. We. There was some sort of little party that we all went to, and he just sat there with the beautiful baby all night and just looked down at the baby and took care of. He was just such a kind and sweet person with this radical, brilliant aesthetic.
- [44:51]
A
And, yeah, he was a child himself. I think he was. You know, he. I think there's a great deal of, you know, what art is. What art comes from is, you know, child. Your child. Your childishness, and how you manage to hold on to that, you know, that purity, as you say.
- [45:23]
C
Yeah.
- [45:27]
A
And, you know, fighting to hold on to that. You know, I think. No, I know that about a lot of people, you know, that they try very hard to hold on to their innocence and, you know, their worldview. The worldview of a child is where a great deal of creativity comes from and originality. So the business world was just not for him. Yeah, just not. And I don't know. I don't really know that much about yours, your relationship to the business world, or if you have, you know, some person who stands between you in the business world. But I think Steve really needed that. He needed to have a. A mediator, you know, someone who stood between him and the production, and that's where he suffered.
- [46:30]
C
Yeah, it's a hard. Yeah, it's a hard business, I must say.
- [46:34]
A
Very hard.
- [46:37]
C
But you talked about acting, and you've actually been in quite a few films. But my particular favorite is David Cronenberg's Videodrome. And how was he to work with? Because he came on Fashion Neurosis as a guest, and I love his films.
- [46:57]
A
I guess that was my first real film.
- [47:03]
C
And.
- [47:09]
A
I was, you know, completely thrilled, you know, that he thought of me. And he. Actually. It wasn't that I had to audition or anything. He just wanted me to do. Do it. And I loved the idea. Oh, my God. That was. You know, I just. I didn't know exactly how to handle that, you know, but of course I did it. And I think in Some ways that I may have. Actually, I've. Sometimes, you know, some of the time I sort of really hit it, and then other times totally missed it. And I think I frustrated him somewhat. But by the end of, you know, my experience working with him, we sort of really appreciated each other. And I was totally. A little bit mystified, you know, that he. I don't think there was an ending. We didn't have an ending to the story. And the further we got into shooting, the more worried I got about that. I became very worried about, oh, how's it going to end? David didn't. He didn't seem to be worried. You know, I mean, I guess by that time, you know, he had written quite a few stories, a lot of scripts and screenplays that, you know, he was. You know, and now, I think now if I got into that situation and, you know, he didn't have the ending quite figured out, I would be very excited by that. Yeah. You know, that. Wow, we're really taking a trip. You know, we're really. This is quite an adventure and quite a wonderful, you know, way for things to evolve, because it's like. It's like life. It's like real life.
- [49:27]
C
Yeah.
- [49:27]
A
And that doesn't happen very often on film.
- [49:32]
C
I mean, you were so good in that movie. You were absolutely brilliant. You were completely spellbinding and captivating and intriguing as that character. And. And you had quite a lot of nudity in it. And I mean, you were just so. So natural because you. You said you'd like to have made comedy. And I wondered what TV series you could imagine yourself being in.
- [50:06]
A
Oh, well, I mean, who would have. Who would rather have been, you know, Connie Booth, for God's sakes. My God. You know, I found out about her much later on.
- [50:21]
C
Yeah, well, you had. Because when I was a teenager, I worked for this, as a stage manager for this director, very, very small theater company. And she was in it. They were doing this comedy, and she was in it. And actually, she. She was so beautiful. She had this absolutely perfect body like yours. She was like a. It was so, like, girlish, and she had these amazing legs and perfect bottom and. And then she was so funny. And so. That's so interesting that you chose her, I think. Exactly. I mean, you know, because you have got this great comic timing, and I could, you know, like, wondered if you. You could have been in a few of Friends episodes or. Did you ever watch any of those.
- [51:18]
A
Early American comedic, you know, little comedy shows like Betty White and Lucille Ball and. God, there were so many. And they, you know, they all came from vaudeville and had terrific stage training, and yet they were sort of involved with the birth of tv. And it was so fabulous how they, you know, sort of adapted. They. I don't know. I don't know how they did it. They worked in a proscenium kind of format as children, and they grew up and suddenly they were in front of cameras, you know, and doing all of this great timing and all these wonderful, silly things. Oh, there was another. Another actress. She had a show called our Ms. Brooks. Oh, my God. And there were so many. What's her name? Oh, she was so. There was just so many great ones.
- [52:25]
C
Yeah.
- [52:26]
A
On American tv. Gail Storm was one. And there was this one woman who shared. Oh, she was. Everything was. She would just get so confused and she talked like that. It was wonderful. And, I mean, I think I was also very inspired by Joan Rivers.
- [52:47]
C
Oh, yeah. She was a genius.
- [52:49]
A
I told Joan Rivers once that I wish that we had gone to high school together. And she really didn't know what to make of that. But I knew that if we had been friends in high school, we would have been laughing so much that we would have been thrown out because, I mean, she was just my cup of tea. I mean, she could do no wrong. Anyway, that came on much later.
- [53:18]
C
Yeah.
- [53:21]
A
But imagine being able to think on your feet like that. And I don't have that. Honestly, I really don't have that. I'm good. I can react well, but I can't really think ahead. And Chris has that ability to sort of see what's sort of coming in a conversation. He thinks, and then he lands in with a line and you just have to die from it, really. It's so funny. Really good, good stuff, because you've been.
- [53:54]
C
Deeply involved with Chris Stein for many, many years and very constant in your devotion to him. And in spite of being hit on by all sorts of amazing guys, including David Bowie and. Have you always been a monogamous person?
- [54:12]
A
I think I'm kind of shy. I think for many years I was very shy and not really aware. I don't know if I really believed, you know, a lot of this attention that I was getting. I don't know if I really believed it. And, yeah, I think the sort of shyness, you know, sort of made me suspicious. You know, I didn't feel comfortable with it. And. I don't know, I felt that. I sort of felt from day one that I. That Chris was just a nice person, you know, that maybe he wasn't a nice person, but to me, he was terrific. And I think he's just a sweet person who, you know, is silly. He has a good, good silly core to him. And that's also something that's. Steve had, you know, Sprouse was kind of a silly guy. You know, he had a childish kind of silly quality. I think that that's something very endearing to me. I. I like this silliness, you know?
- [55:28]
C
Yeah, I agree. It's a highly underestimated quality. And it's very endearing, as you said. It's very. It's just. It's great. You know, when someone can be silly, you just feel really close to them, and it's fantastic.
- [55:46]
A
Yeah.
- [55:47]
C
And if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction to them?
- [55:54]
A
Yes, it does. It kills the attraction of. It makes me wonder, wow, what happened? What's going on there? Yes, it's definitely a factor.
- [56:13]
C
Is there anything specific?
- [56:16]
A
Anything specific? No, no, nothing. There's no real one specific thing. But I'll just sort of wonder, you know, why did they make that choice? And, you know, I don't know. You know, makes me. Makes me. Pushes me away.
- [56:37]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [56:38]
A
Just pushes me away.
- [56:42]
C
And you. And you did pictures with Nan Goldin for the. The Gucci campaign. Was that last. Last year? And what was it like to work with her? I'm such a huge admirer, and she just makes such sort of powerful, great images.
- [57:05]
A
Yeah, I hadn't. I think I had met Nan casually once, you know, just to say hello, and I was kind of really intimidated by her body, Body of work and the things that she stood for. But I also admired Nan for taking a stand politically and doing the things that she had done in the past and in the present as well, and that she was so bright and so outspoken that she really stood up for things. You know, she really was this strong, had this strength about her. But what I didn't know was how sweet she was and how nice she was and how easy she was to work with. And she made me feel. She made me feel beautiful and, I think, confident, you know, and we all need that. We all need that at various times. And when you go, you know on camera, you want that to happen. You want to be inspired. And that's one of the things that I learned. I never really thought that I took good pictures or felt comfortable on camera until I lived with a photographer. It was wonderful. I learned everything from Chris about how to feel comfortable in front of the camera. And to be able to give, you know, and I think that's very important. And I learned that from him. And I learned that because we were intimate and we loved each other. And so it was painless, you know, it was mindless, you know, that here we were taking pictures and, you know, I was, like, communicating to him through the camera. And so it became my. My experience, you know, that's. That's where I thought it was done. And so it is. That is how it's done.
- [59:27]
C
Yeah.
- [59:28]
A
And with Nan, it was very much like that. She was so lovely, and I. I just enjoyed knowing her and enjoyed meeting her. I enjoyed everything about the experience. And basically, you know, doing a high fashion shoot for Gucci could be very intimidating experience, you know, but it really wasn't with her.
- [59:55]
C
She was.
- [59:56]
A
She was marvelous. I love you, Nan.
- [59:59]
C
Yeah. I love you, Nan.
- [60:02]
A
Yeah. I love you, Nan.
- [60:04]
C
Well, thank you so much, Debbie Harry, for being on Fashion Neurosis. It's been heaven for me. It's been such an instrumental part in my idea for this kind of, whatever you call it, fashion Neurosis in my five people.
- [60:23]
A
You will.
- [60:25]
C
I felt like you. I could have a great conversation with you, and it's been really great. So thank you so much.
- [60:35]
A
Well, Ms. Belafrod, you are entirely welcome and so glad that I could be a part of your vision and to get to know you a little bit more. And I hope that, you know, our friendship will carry on.
- [60:56]
C
Same here.