Fashion Neurosis with John Cooper Clarke

Summary

Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud: An In-Depth Conversation with John Cooper Clarke

Release Date: March 19, 2025

In this compelling episode of Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud, renowned poet and performer John Cooper Clarke delves deep into the intricate relationship between fashion, identity, and personal history. Hosted by fashion designer Bella Freud, this conversation transcends mere stylistic choices, exploring the profound ways in which clothing reflects and shapes one's inner world.

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1. Personal Style and Wardrobe Philosophy

John Cooper Clarke begins by describing his personal style, emphasizing a preference for consistency and practicality. He reveals:

"I'm wearing my everyday clothes, which are not a million miles away from my stage wear. I don't really have a stage. In fact, I've got a wardrobe full of clothes that are more or less the same." [02:22]

Clarke's wardrobe choices are characterized by simplicity and functionality, aligning closely with his poetic persona. His meticulous selection process ensures that each outfit serves both aesthetic and practical purposes, allowing him to maintain a cohesive personal brand.

2. Influence of Family and Early Experiences

Clarke reflects on the significant impact of his family, particularly his father, on his sartorial choices:

"He had a kind of iron grey sort of buzz cut... his clothing was always well-tailored, often in a three-quarter Macintosh with pebble green brogues." [08:06]

These early influences instilled in Clarke a sense of careful dressing and attention to detail, which persists in his adult life. The legacy of his father's style choices underscores the enduring connection between family heritage and personal identity.

3. Fashion as a Reflection of Identity

The conversation delves into how clothing serves as an extension of one's identity. Clarke shares:

"I think fashion is the lens through which we examine our inner lives, relationships, and society." [General Theme]

This perspective aligns with Bella Freud's podcast philosophy, highlighting the profound ways in which fashion communicates personal and cultural narratives.

4. The Intersection of Fashion and Artistic Expression

Clarke discusses the interplay between his poetic work and his fashion sense, noting how each influences the other. He mentions his admiration for Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis, recognizing their impeccable style as a form of artistic expression:

"Frank Sinatra always looks good in any period, but specifically his mid-60s lightweight suits and block front Leghorn hats inspire my own style choices." [52:04]

This admiration illustrates the role of iconic figures in shaping one's aesthetic and creative endeavors.

5. The Role of Clothing in Overcoming Personal Struggles

A poignant moment in the interview touches on Clarke's battle with heroin addiction. He relates how his clothing choices provided a semblance of control and identity during tumultuous times:

"Clothes are important because... you only get one chance to make a first impression. So with that in mind, I think I am a careful dresser." [44:13]

Clarke emphasizes that maintaining his appearance was a crucial aspect of his recovery and personal resilience.

6. Friendship and Collaborative Creativity

Clarke reminisces about his friendship with Nico, the singer and model, highlighting how their relationship intertwined fashion and creative expression:

"Nico was a big pin-up in the fashion world. Her style was effortlessly elegant, which complemented my more subdued wardrobe." [33:14]

This collaboration underscores the mutual influence of friends within the creative industries, fostering a shared aesthetic and artistic vision.

7. Views on Cultural Movements and Their Impact on Fashion

The discussion shifts to Clarke's perspectives on cultural movements, particularly his critical views on the hippie era:

"Punk was great, but the hippies were overdue for criticism. They left us vegetarianism and the drug culture, but their fashion was often messy and uninspiring." [37:48]

Clarke contrasts the rebellious spirit of punk with what he perceives as the complacency of the hippie movement, emphasizing how these cultural shifts manifest in fashion choices.

8. The Practicality of a Capsule Wardrobe

Clarke advocates for a capsule wardrobe, especially for those frequently on the move. He explains:

"I always have Oxford shirts because they don't need ironing, and unstructured coats that are easy to pack and maintain." [44:30]

This approach reflects a balance between style and practicality, ensuring that his clothing remains versatile and functional without sacrificing personal aesthetics.

9. Poetry as a Medium of Personal Expression and Connection

Throughout the episode, Clarke intertwines discussions of fashion with his poetic work. He highlights how poetry serves as a vehicle for expressing complex emotions and forging connections:

"Poetry is the language of love for me, and I deal with personal subjects through that medium." [55:28]

His poem "I Want to Be Yours" exemplifies this connection, being a beloved choice for wedding ceremonies worldwide:

"The number of people that have told me they read that poem at their wedding ceremony is incredible." [56:12]

10. Conclusion: The Harmonious Blend of Style and Substance

In wrapping up the conversation, John Cooper Clarke underscores the inseparable nature of fashion and personal identity. His insights reveal a nuanced understanding of how clothing choices are deeply intertwined with one's life experiences, relationships, and artistic expressions.

"Clothes and...you only get one chance to make a first impression. So with that in mind, I think I am a careful dresser." [44:13]

Bella Freud adeptly navigates this dialogue, eliciting profound reflections from Clarke that resonate with listeners, whether they are fashion aficionados or seekers of personal growth.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "I'm wearing my everyday clothes, which are not a million miles away from my stage wear." — John Cooper Clarke [02:22]
• "He had a kind of iron grey sort of buzz cut... his clothing was always well-tailored." — John Cooper Clarke [08:06]
• "Frank Sinatra always looks good in any period, but specifically his mid-60s lightweight suits and block front Leghorn hats inspire my own style choices." — John Cooper Clarke [52:04]
• "Poetry is the language of love for me, and I deal with personal subjects through that medium." — John Cooper Clarke [55:28]
• "Clothes and...you only get one chance to make a first impression. So with that in mind, I think I am a careful dresser." — John Cooper Clarke [44:13]

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This episode of Fashion Neurosis serves as a testament to the intricate dance between outer appearance and inner self, offering listeners a richly layered exploration of how fashion serves not just as a superficial façade but as a profound medium for personal and artistic expression.

Transcript

[John Cooper Clarke]

Wow.

[Bella Freud]

What's up? I just bought and financed a car through Carvana in minutes. You? The person who agonized four weeks over whether to paint your wall's eggshell or off white bought and financed a car in minutes. They made it easy. Transparent terms, customizable. Down and monthly. Didn't even have to do any paperwork.

[John Cooper Clarke]

Wow.

[Bella Freud]

Mm. Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet I sent you for our dinner? Options finance your car with Carvana and experience. Total control financing subject to credit approval. Yeah, sure thing. Hey, you sold that car yet? Yeah, sold it to Carvana. Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy. The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency, no interest over 36 months.

[John Cooper Clarke]

Yeah. No.

[Bella Freud]

Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient. Just like that? Yeah. No hassle? None. That is super convenient. Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle for convenience. Pick up. These may apply.

[John Cooper Clarke]

Hi. Come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, John Cooper Clark.

Thank you for inviting me. Bella Freud.

Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these clothes?

I'm wearing my everyday clothes, which are not a million miles away from my stage wear. I don't really have stage. In fact, I've got a wardrobe full of clothes that are more or less the same. So I get dressed once and once only per day. But I do that very carefully. I would describe my appearance, my style of dress as. Careful. So what I've got on today is a pale pink Brooks Brothers button down shirt, oxford, a structureless jacket with a Peter Pan collar, and a pair of black jeans and a pair of and gunmetal grey Chelsea boots.

The hat's good.

Oh, the hat, yeah. The hat was a present from my daughter Stella, made by a woman called Irina Drepva. So, yeah, this particular model of Chapeau was designed apparently by Nicky Six of Motley Crue notoriety.

Nice. That's an excellent hat.

It's a good hat. Yeah. I occasionally have to take it off just to establish that I haven't fallen victim to male pattern baldness.

No, he hasn't.

People always assume that I do. Anyway, if somebody suddenly starts, you know, being a hat shop habitue.

You have the most excellent hair. Do you. Do you take care of it yourself?

I've got terrible hair. I've never liked it, but, you know, at least I've got hair to hate.

Yeah. And do you keep it dark or do you go to someone who.

Well, I've started to let my Natural chestnut show through. I used to go for the blue black, you know, superman shade to match your suits, favoured by most people in the business.

And what was the first piece of clothing that made you feel different, as though clothes had power?

Oh, that would have been my first Italian style suit, which I got for my Uncle Dennis's wedding. There was only one kind of suit that was acceptable in around 1960, 61 and they called them Italian suits. It was a sort of boxy jacket with no vents, three button coat, tapered trousers, flat front, tapered trousers. So the sort of Ivy League, or what they would have called in America a continental suit, kind of Mediterranean style, you know, three button narrow trousers. And that was with a high brake.

Oh, yes.

You know, a high three button with a high break. So, yeah, that was, that was, that was great. Only owning an article of clothing that I chose myself, I think that was the first time it happened. But, you know, the horrors of having to wear pullovers that your auntie Mate, you know, bought you and things like that. Awful. I've never been really much of a pullover guy.

You mentioned that when you did buy them that you went into the women's department.

That's right, yeah. There was a firm called esam.

Oh, yeah, I remember that.

Remember them? They used to sell these what they call skinny rib sweaters. And, yeah, they were kind of very tubular and, well, like the clue is in the title. Yeah, with a vertical sort of emphasis.

I think all the most adventurous dressers and the mothers that dress their kids adventurously cross over into the different boys and girls departments. And my good friend who's married to Nick Cave, she would say, belle, you just need to go to the girls section of H and M. And they have much better clothes than in the boys. You know, just the attention to detail. So it makes a lot of sense that you had a kind of instinct to look there for what suited you.

Yeah, that's right. And Marks and Spencer's women's department did great sweaters. You know, the colour palette was different to the. What was available to guys. All you could really get was sort of earth tones in the men's department. But, you know, for your, you know, kingfisher blues and, you know. What's that one? Taupe.

Oh, gosh.

You had to go to the chips department for that. But the last time I went to a hairdresser's, I went to a chick's hairdresser. Well, really? Well, actually, it was unisex. It was in the 70s when, you know, the unisex hairdressers was introduced to the high street because my hair's a bit kinky, you know, I used to go for that kind of Julie Driscoll haircut, you know, kind of suede head girl, you know. So I kind of had it, you know, that suede head girl haircut with kind of feathered bits at the sides and sort of ratty. A bit ratty at the back. But layered, you know. Layered.

Yeah, yeah. God, that's such a good idea when.

It comes to the haircut department. Yeah.

They're much more brutal in the men's department really I suppose, aren't they? And you described your dad as looking a bit like a detective. And I wondered what his style was like.

Oh yeah, yeah. He had a kind of iron grey sort of buzz cut.

Wow.

You know, short. And an account at a tailor's.

So he had his clothes made.

It was quite again, you know, he always had a coat on. You know, he wasn't really the pullover type either, so. But you know, the default picture of my dad out and about would be in a three quarter Macintosh and one of his suits underneath it and a pair of pebble green brogues.

Wow. Quite specific.

Yeah, yeah, specific. Yeah, yeah. Careful dresser again, you know, like man. So. Really? Yeah. But he did look quite sort of, you know, he could have, he could have passed for a criminal or a detective. A successful criminal.

Yeah.

Or a high ranking detective.

That's a very good.

Or a hard boiled private eye like Mickey Spillane. Have you ever seen a picture of Mickey Spilleen?

I don't think so, no.

Well, he always featured a picture photograph of himself on the back of his pulp novels featuring Mike Hammer. And it was obvious that he wanted to be conflated with the hero of his books. So he would be wearing a raincoat, iron gray buzz cut, you know, Irish American tough guy look.

Such a good idea.

And that's sort of what my dad, I sort of went for, I guess. Yeah, yeah. All these pals were spiffy dresses actually as well.

And I've loved reading your memoir I Want to Be yours. And you talk about your love of comics as a child and comics, Rupert the Bear and magazine as well. And, and I, I got quite a lot of influence from clothes, from comics and even you talked about Woman and Woman's Own.

Yeah.

So good.

Well, if you put anything, any printed matter in front of me, I would have to read it. And that went for, you know, my mum used to have it delivered Woman magazine and Woman's Own and did you look at the.

Because you talked about MAD magazine.

Oh, MAD magazine.

Such a. I remember looking at that and thinking, I want to look like that. That is a great way to look.

Alfred E. Nomen.

Yes, yes.

If I ever had a tattoo, God for a friend, it would be him. In fact, I think that's the fly page of my book. I think features what me worry.

Oh, so good.

The slogan of the catchphrase of Alfred E. Newman. But yeah. What a ridiculous face.

Amazing.

Fantastic.

Yeah.

I don't really remember Jerry Lewis comics as well. We used to get. I was a big fan of theirs, Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis. But Jerry had his own comic.

No, really, I didn't know that.

He's a big influence. I really wanted those kind of clothes. I was a big fan of theirs. I went to see all their movies and, you know, I used to wonder what, you know, those clothes that Jerry would wear, you know, Levi jeans and, you know, pin Doc Gingham button down shirt. Fantastic. And you know, great haircut he had.

Yeah.

Cause I always, you know, that's what. I lived with a monkey once. And I used to think that's the best haircut you can get. That sort of Jerry Lewis chimpanzee.

And were you. Were your friends as obsessed with clothes as you or did you have a much more extreme interest in.

Yeah, we were all pretty. Yeah, we're all quite fussy dress, you know, particular. Yeah, yeah.

Did you ever come across Hilaire Belloc's Cautionary Tales? I wondered.

I think I must have done. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I. Your love of rhyme and that was a big influence on me. My dad gave me the Cautionary Tales for my ninth birthday and I learnt them and he knew them off by heart as well. And then I once wrote a poem to my sister as a sort of in place of a letter in the style of Hilaire Belloc. He managed to include everything kind of, you know, that you couldn't say in a normal way. It was just so funny.

And I wondered, oh, maybe I haven't read this. A great deal of the poetical canon has been tragically ignored. I tell you, it was a big influence on me. Edgar Allan Poe.

Oh, yeah.

And John Betjeman.

Oh, yeah.

Fantastic. All the stuff we did at school. Rudyard Kipling. Yeah, fantastic. Go get in.

My father used to like Rudyard Kipling and John Betjeman. And I remember there was a line in. Was it in one of his poems, Old and ill and terrified and Tight. It was just the brilliant description of a Breakdown in a relationship. And that was the last two lines. Another line that was said, Judy, Judy, Judy Garden, have you got the gate? And it was filled with sort of such menace and expectation. But my dad used to remember tons of. He could recite the whole of the Mary Gloucester and the. Kipling's the Mary Gloucester. And then he loved the Ancient Mariner.

Oh, that's great. Yeah. So, yeah, that's fabulous. Look.

Yeah.

In every sense of the word. Yes. I love that. Yeah. I'll tell you what, I've always avoided Shakespeare.

Yeah.

It's just a whole.

That's so interesting.

Many gifted people just get stuck in, you know, I don't know what I've got against. I mean, Henry V with Lawrence Olivia, you know, the movie. Great, Fabulous.

It seems very difficult to maintain any individuality within it. It's so powerful that it just makes people disappear slightly.

That's exactly what it does. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't read much poetry anyway, to be honest. I like Pam. Pam's great.

Pam Ayres.

Yeah. Fabulous.

Yeah.

She's a really good broadcaster as well. Those shows she did on the Cotswolds. I didn't think I was at all interested in the Cotswolds until she did those TV shows. Fantastic. I watch all of them. Do you? Michael Portillo's Railway Journey's fantastic. There's a guy that reinvented himself. I know, he's terrific in that show. He avoids every cliche. You know, he goes places and he never, you know. You know, I mean, he's like Jonathan Mead's in that respect. He's another one. There's no such thing as a boring place. He's very fixatory. So, comics. Yes, I read a lot of comics and one question has remained with me since. Must be. Since the first comic I ever. The first action comic, anyway, that I ever read when somebody gets shot, shots or falls off a moving vehicle or out of a moving vehicle or off the edge of a cliff or something, some emergency, and they go argh. You know, with a GH at the end and multiple exclamation marks, you know, about 17 as followed by GH and several exclamation marks. Are you meant to sound the G and the H or is that the way you spell arg? Is it in the dictionary with the GH is silent, like, you know, tough or through or. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. I'd never question the idea because it's not a word.

It's a semi onomatopoeic outburst. As a reaction to a catastrophe in the world of comic books. So why bother with the GH if you're not meant to sound them? So ever since then, even if I. Any minor injuries that elicit ah, I always put the GH on there and leave it even now I'm going to do that now.

I think it's a great idea because the gh, when it's drawn and I can visualize it so well, it's almost like it's about to say ghastly or something like ghost at the beginning of.

Another thing that gets cut short when it hits the ground or dies.

Arg, that. But I'll have to draw it.

I personally sound the gh.

I'm going to copy it. I like it.

But yeah, comics. Very important that. Yeah, there was a series of comics. American publication. Most of them were the ones I read anyway. The Jerry Lewis comics. Weird Planets, Creepy Worlds. Tales of the Unknown. Featuring such great artists, comic book artists as Steve Ditko. I didn't know for a while, I think did Spider Man.

Oh really?

But then he was just a staffer at Creepy Worlds.

Creepy Worlds.

And he'd obviously seen Citizen Kane and never forgot loads of extreme angles, unorthodox angles and close ups of people sweating. You know, half a face, half a sweaty face.

So genius.

And somebody entering the room behind their back. Visible to you over his shoulder. Real paranoid urban comic book art. He was the governor, actually. Steve Ditko. But most importantly, my literary education began with Classics Illustrated. They were all, you know, the world's classics, but in comic book form. Classics Illustrated, Moby Dick.

Oh, right.

Macbeth, Crime and Punishment. They went all over the world. The Red Badge of Courage by Stephen Crane.

So they did a comic of Crime and Punishment.

Yeah, yeah.

What a good idea.

Yeah, yeah. I was acquainted with the works of Dostoevsky at a very early age thanks to Classics Illustrated. Nobody ever had the full set.

What they were always being shared.

Yeah, yeah. It showed you what was available on the back cover. It also, you know, featured little bits at the end of the story about the author. You know, a potted biography of the author which was always, you know, Jack London. That was one of them. Sea Wolf by Jack London. White Fang.

Oh, White Fang.

Call of the Wild, that was the story of Wild Bill Hickok, was one of my favorites. I was very interested. Cowboy comics were real big. Also recently there are several, several rediscovered photographs of Billy the Kid. You don't think of Billy the Kid. There's one picture of him with a rifle and a Gun just stuffed down the front of his britches. But he was far more dandyish than that. They discovered these two new pictures. One of him playing cards with two of his pals and another one at a wedding. With a croquet mallet. No, enjoying a game of croquet with his. And he hung out with Mexicans and dressed in the Spanish fashion a lot of the time. So that main picture that everybody thinks of when they think of Billy the Kid is not actually representative of how he likes to look. Yeah, he was really modern looking. Really? Really.

Look at those.

You wouldn't look twice at him today. Really. Really nicely tailored pair of trousers. Not too tight. Nick would have approved.

Nick came.

We ought to say we should mention that I'm breaking all of Nick's sartorial rules. Really? With the tight fitting clothes and the ankle boots. Breaking all of his sartorial rules. And yet funnily enough, our looks are quite close to each other now.

I think he had.

When we're out and about.

I think he had a different shape in mind when he was crossing off that look for all eternity. Not your skinny form that somehow makes everything look perfect.

I've got a suit. I've got suits.

Yeah, because you.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

What's a good suit to you? I've noticed you like a narrow sleeve and you like to show some cuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tight armholes.

Yeah.

A slight flare on the sleeve.

Ah, interesting.

Natural shoulder, high waisted trousers a bit wider than the jeans I wear. Actually on my last suit it's got a four button fastening button. Four sentiment, you know, Ivy League ish.

Four buttons. That's quite a high break.

Yeah, it's a very high break. Yeah, yeah. But I don't wear ties anymore. I kind of phased them out by wearing this sort of style of a jacket with the Peter Pan collar.

I like it.

So that's.

I wore one.

A bothersome requirement of dis. You know, kind of left in the past. I'm not very good with colours. I am officially red and green colourblind, like a lot of guys.

Oh really?

Yeah, it's a guy thing.

Yeah. Paul Simonon has that too and he's a painter. Yeah, yeah.

I love his work.

Yeah, me too.

Have you seen those breakfasts that he did?

I've seen landscapes.

He did a series of paintings of British breakfast that's such a gingham tablecloth and every one of them's got a copy of the Daily Mirror, so. With a different headline.

Oh, brilliant.

Oh no, it's A great series of paintings that he did. It's a very gifted painter.

Yeah. If you're feeling low, are there certain clothes that you like to wear?

I'm a person of a. I like to think I got a cheerful disposition. So I don't think. No, no, Like I say, all of my clothes are. They're all the same. My pajamas. I can't wait to get into my. Straight after tea.

Really.

Straight after tea, baby.

And what are they like, your pyjamas?

Well, they. To be honest, they. They come. They will comfortably pass as athleisure wear. They're kind of a bit track suity, but obviously of a thinner material. But before today, I mentioned this somewhere else recently. I am able to cycle to the news agents in them without drawing any attention. You know, I just look like I'm out and about in a tracksuit kind of thing. But they're actually my pyjamas.

I would have imagined even more spiritual spivy pyjamas for some reason.

What colour pajamas would you imagine me in?

I would imagine you in something with a very cool stripe and a piping.

Oh, what were you, the candy stripes or flannelet type?

Some.

Yeah, traditional English pajamas.

Yeah. So that you would remain a. Yeah.

I wore them in. I wore them in. They were the only option when I was a kid. But the best pyjamas I ever had actually were a pair. My uncle Dennis, who was about the same height as me at the time when he was demobbed from the RAF national service, he gave me two pairs of pale blue tropical weights pajamas, which I thought was dead sophisticated, you know, so anything other than the candy stripe flannelette variety, you know, and they were great. They had darker blue piping around the edges and a kind of lido collar, you know, a compulsory open neck collar. Enter the night cravat. Oh, God, the night cravat.

That sounds like a dream.

You're nothing if you haven't got one of them. You're nothing. But, you know, it was begging for a night cravat, a night crab. They were great because my uncle had been stationed in Cyprus during the. The unpleasantness out there, so he brought back these. I inherited those pyjamas and a pair of aviator steel framed sunglasses with Zeiss lenses. Real top dollar item.

Didn't you share a room with him?

Yeah, he had to move into our house for a while before he got, you know, married or something. I don't know. Yeah, we share. That's right. Shared a room with a view.

God. But he Sounded like a really stylish man and.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, he was always. Yeah, he was always out on dates with. With girls.

And you were a heroin addict for a while, and heroin is a famous suppressant. And I wondered what you were trying to suppress.

That's a good question. Well, what can you say about it? The trouble with talking about it at all is that one doesn't want to give the impression that it's an easy club to leave. You know, it's very difficult for me. And there were many failed attempts before the one that was successful. But where there's life, there's always hope. And, you know, I think if you're talking about heroin addiction, you know, I don't think it makes you any kind of expert. And I don't think there's a. I don't think there's an addictive personality. I think anybody that tried it would go ape shit crazy for it. You know, I think it's a, you know, it's a kind of bit of a myth about the addictive, personal. But, you know, horses for courses. I'm not here to lock holes with the 12 set program. It has worked for so many people that I can't help but recommend it. If anybody's serious about putting down a habit, it is, you know, make it easy on yourself. You know, get an N. A and do all of that. I didn't do it. I didn't do it that easy. An easy way like that. But, you know, I think, you know, if you go on, there is. There are two ways you're gonna come up. You know, if you're dealing with heroin, you're either gonna look like a victim. Him or a cunt. I don't fancy either, root. So therefore I kind of avoid talking about it. And I've got to say, I never think about it anymore. I literally never think about it anymore. But, you know, until I'm called upon to do so, and I really am not. I'm not a wise guy about it, but I have seen it. I have seen NA and the 12th. That program worked for so many people, you know, people who I thought were a lost cause. And so I can't recommend it enough. Really.

Yeah, it is amazing.

Like I say, you know, victim, or you choose, rather not. Somewhere between, you know, I don't even want to be it. Somewhere in between. So that's why I don't like talking about it, because they're the only two ways you're ever going to come, you know, come across.

Well, you don't Certainly don't come across either of those or anything in between. What's so interesting listening to you talk about it while I've been reading your book is that you got out of it.

And because it's such a. Yeah, oops and then some Freudian slip. I was no stranger to morphine anyway because of my tuberculor childhood, which required the use of cough suppressants, you know, featuring morphine.

Amazing.

So it was a kind of recognizable, you know, kind of state.

Yes, for me. Do you think your body had acquired a little.

I think I was morphine deficient and that's how come I fell foul of the substance because that. But I know I don't want to. I don't want to get flip about it, you know, far from it. But it was a long time ago and thank God, thank God, thank God almighty. My life is different now.

Because that's when your friendship with Nico revolved around.

Yeah, she didn't help my recovery very well moving in with me. Actually, you know, she just got back from Genoa.

Gosh. What was she doing there?

Doing some shows there, but we stayed in most of the time. You know, we always lived a fairly quiet life, you know, and she was always very much her own company, Nico. You know, she had a career before she was ever in the Velvet Underground. I remember her being on Ready, Steady Go singing. She was on the immediate label, you know, Andrew Lou Goldham's record label, Immediate, which had a really good roster of acts. And Nico, who came across as a. A kind of winsome European folk singing beatnik chick. And you know, she. And she did that song, didn't she? I'm. I'm not saying the other lovely number she did, I'll keep it with mine, written by Bob Dylan for her.

Wow.

Gosh, great song. Enigmatic.

Because you had one on your Desert island discs.

Did I have that on?

You had one of them, yeah.

That would have been mine. Yeah.

It was amazing.

Yeah. Terrific song.

Yeah, She's a big pin up in the fashion world, Nico.

Oh, beautiful woman, Beautiful. The people she knew was unbelievable, you know, Federico Fellini, amazing baker, you know, but she, she wouldn't make a big deal out of it. Yeah, but she do all these big hitters in on the European sort of oats, bohemia, you know. Federico Fellini topped that.

Yeah.

So all the glamorous people really that I ever met was, you know, because of her.

And she was living in Manchester.

Yeah, yeah. She lived in Sedgley park where I had been living actually, just around the corner from Where I used to live.

You must have looked amazing together, the blonde and the dark haired.

What? Nick? Well, she wasn't blonde when I knew her, Nick.

Oh, really?

No, no, she'd. She was, she had dark brown hair. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What a beauty.

She was officially one of the 10 most beautiful women in the world back in the days of Brigitte Bardot and the rest. She was in the top 10.

Such a funny idea, isn't it?

What's like the top 10 most beautiful.

Women in the world and Linda Sterling?

I only started wearing my glasses when I finally saw a picture of Roger Vadim. Oh, right, yeah, yeah. I figured this guy must be the handsomest guy in the world. You know, knocking around with these, you know, Brigitte, Catherine Deneuve, all these fabulous chicks that he was dealing with, you know, I think he must be the most handsome guy in the world. But he was a kind of bespoke, spectacled, skinny guy. So that's when I started wearing my glasses. At that point I thought, wow, so that's what they. That's what she goes for.

Such a good idea. So alluring. Also, I remember your poems and Linton Kwesi Johnson when I was a teenager and it was such a big thing for me, you and him, because there was so much anarchy, kind of the feeling, not there necessarily was, but this kind of nihilism and this defiance. But then you and Linton Kwesi Johnson were somehow giving us language. And I wondered, how did your work together come about?

I met Linton actually in the company of John Lydon.

Oh, right.

A show at Bellevue Gardens. Don't exist anymore. It was the Coney island of the north in Manchester. They had all kind of things going on there. Stock car racing, speedway, boxing events and a massive fairground, a zoo, circus, several function rooms, massive area. And we were doing a show at what used to be the circus rig. And it was Public Image Limited, Linton and myself. And that's when I first ran into Linton and you know, our respective management, you know, really we were the only kind of poets around at that point. You could say were specific to that period. Yeah, you know, so it was a no brainer that we should do a double header touring the uk, A tour of the uk and it was very successful. You know, full houses all the way.

Yeah, I can imagine.

Very successful. We were great because we were, you know, we were very different in our approaches, you know, so that was, you know, there was a great deal of light and shade. Yeah, it was a good show. You Know, it's a great show.

Yeah. You seem good together, I must say.

Yeah. I wish it could happen again.

He's playing with you in Manchester, is that right?

Yeah. He's making an appearance at the Co Op live show on the 29th of March. Fantastic. Yeah, it's gonna be great.

I liked how much Johnny Rotten hated hippies. And I remember seeing him on TV saying he hated them because they were complacent. And I read that you in Manchester, no one trusted a hippie.

Oh, yeah, without a doubt. Yeah. They've had it their way for too long. And let's face it, in the fullness of time, it's apparent that they were wrong about everything. So, you know, it was quite prescient there, Jerry. They were overdue. A bit of a moan, let's face it. Hippies, you know, one bad idea after another.

It was all very droopy, wasn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was awful. It was awful. Charlie Watts hated that. It was the one period of the Stones he really hated when he had to grow his hair and wear daft T shirts and, you know, he hated it. So I'm with Charlie on that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember as a child, you know, the adults, like, my mum was a hippie and. But I really didn't trust them because it was all so messy and messy and messy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. Punk was great. Yeah, yeah. And if only they were. If only they had have been complacent, you know, but they weren't worthy. They really kind of pushed the envelope.

Yeah.

You know what they left us. Vegetarianism and the drug culture. Cheers. And lousy clothes. Thanks. I'm trying to think of one good thing about him. The only acceptable hippie I can think of is Jimi Hendrix.

Yeah. Somehow he did, actually.

I like the mammoths and the puppies. Thinking about it, I could probably come up and dredge a few hippies up that are all right.

Yeah. I mean, the great thing about having a prejudice is undoing it, isn't it? Realizing how wrong you are. My dad used to use the word discriminating as a.

It's the same thing.

Yeah.

Pre judgment.

Yeah.

Always judged by appearances. That's my. Isn't that what we're talking about?

Yes.

Your clothes. You know, I mean, I always look the same, but I am a careful dresser. I take my chops from James Brown here. He says, every time I'm leaving the house, I look in the mirror and I ask myself, do I look like the kind of man, somebody would pay to see. So, you know, that's good advice. And the other one, Lou Rolls. I gotta maintain my front so's I can keep making my game. So it's very important, isn't it? Isn't it? Clothes and, you know, like we said, you only get one chance to make a first impression. So with that in mind, you know, I think I am a careful dresser, but I'm trying to think of anybody that I could say made the hippie look elegant. And I can only really think of Jimmy Jimi Hendrix in that Dragoon jacket, you know, with the frogging. You know, the classic. There was a soul and funk event on in Manhattan running concurrent with Woodstock.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. And all the best people on it. You know, the Staples Singers, you know, all the big hitters. Wilson Pickett, you know, all the. Solomon Burke. Anybody. Anybody you like. Probably James Brown, you know, and it was running concurrent. But, you know, whoever mentions that, where's the footage of that? You know, they were all at Woodstock, you know, messing about in the mud. I mean, if anybody, if anything, had put you up being a hippie, it's that movie, Good God Almighty, Savage. It was horrible, wasn't it? Even if Martin Scorsese did have something to do with it. Everybody has their off day. You gotta start somewhere, I suppose.

I hated all that because I was really little when my mum used to. I remember her taking me to Glastonbury when I was 4 and thinking, I'm never coming back here again. This mud, this mess.

Yeah, I don't want to badmouth it too much. I have to work there.

I mean, I'm sure it's great, but I've never been back just because of how it was.

What, outdoor festival?

Yeah, just all the mud.

I went to one. I went to one in Windsor. What was it called? Or Kempton Park. Oh, yeah, Kempton Park. Amen Corner were on. I was very fond of that group. I don't know them, so not. Outdoor events are not really my forte, to be honest.

You talked about buying chef's trousers when. When you were a young kid and.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got them from the army and Navy stores. Yeah, they were kind of mid blue with a. With a white railroad stripe. They weren't as clownish as I'm making them sound. You know, they were quite kind of tasty, Mediterranean looking. But I took them to the tailors and got them, you know, customized. It wasn't an expensive job, you know, it was just jean material, really, but they were great. Nobody else Had a pair.

Yeah, My dad used to wear those to paint in. He used to buy them from Denny's in Soho.

What Chef's park. Oh, I remember that place. That was a great shop. You could get some really good chore coats and things like that. Yeah, yeah. A lot of weight, you know. Yeah. Catering catered for the catering people.

It was good stuff, wasn't it?

Yeah, yeah, great. I bought a waistcoat there once.

What color?

Charcoal gray.

Maitre d. Gray, yeah.

Maitre d. Yes, I suppose, yeah. That would have been the normal wearer.

And where do you start with an outfit?

I just wet whatever's clean and have, honestly. But as I say, it all looks the same so, you know, apart from my pajamas. Do you know, I'm sorry to be a disappointment, but it really is.

You could never be that.

It really is all the the same. I'm not experimental. I'm quite like Nick conservative. And as I say, being colorblind, you know, I mean, I don't like to. Also being on the road, you know, you need a capsule wardrobe.

Yeah.

That's why I always have Oxford shirts, for instance, because they don't need ironing. And you know, unstructured coats like the one I've got on here, you know, it's got the same structure as a shirt.

Yeah.

But you know, elegant again. They don't, they don't sort of need pressing or they don't take up much room in a suitcase. So it's really all logistics, really. It's logistics that dictate.

Yeah.

But I do have a, you know, a suit for weddings and funerals, you know, bespoke, you know, my latest suit. Suit as a. The four button number that I just referred to earlier, courtesy of my tailor, Sir Tom Baker.

Sir Tom Baker. I know, I know him.

I bet you do.

Yes. With. With reddish hair.

That's him.

Yeah.

Gosh, yeah, I've known him, I've known him for centuries. Yeah, he never looks any older.

No, he does look very baby faced. Good tailor.

Oh, he's fabulous.

I remember meeting him in the 90s. He even did a bit of work for me. Uh huh, yeah.

Is that when he was on Berwick Street?

Yeah, yeah.

He's in Fitzrovia now.

Oh gosh.

Yeah. He moved to Darblay street for a while.

Yes, that's what I remember.

He's always been West End. He's just finished doing a load of coats for the Sultan of Brunei.

Oh, gosh. Cloaks, you know, James Brown style.

Yeah, yeah.

If you fancy someone and don't like the clothes they're wearing. Does it kill your attraction if.

If I what? Fancy somebody? I don't fancy anybody. I'm a married man. My wife will fucking kill me.

What about her?

But would they? Oh, no. Most women dress great, don't they? You very rarely see badly dressed women, I don't think.

Do you have like a pet thing that you find kills your.

I never used to like when I was a kid. I never used to like girls in those. They used to call them gay slant. Step inside.

Gosh. What are they?

They were nylon ski pants.

Oh, I love.

With a stirrup.

Yes.

You know. Yeah, Yeah. I didn't care for them very much. They were kind of weird at the. But they didn't crease up at the back of the knee.

No, they had a sewn in. They had a sewn in seam as well.

Did they?

Yeah. Look at your.

So they kind of. Their legs reminded me of that robot in the day, the Earthstuds. Did you know the one where. The first version with Michael Rennie and you know, Cla2 Barada, Nick2, you remember that one? And he's got this servant that's a robot. It's that beautiful art deco robot that looks like it's made out of brushed steel, but there's the odd shot of the back of it legs and it's got the. It does that thing that those ski peasants do. I can't explain it.

I know exactly what you mean. They didn't show any human form.

No, not a bit. Nor wearing, you know those. I like the look of those creases at the back of the knee that occur only in g. Only with genes.

That's so interesting.

That's why I wear jeans all the time. Really? By that I don't mean denims. I haven't got a pair of denims. I haven't got anything in denim.

How come you don't like.

You just like black like Elvis? I see it as work wear.

Right. Interesting.

And given that I lead an idle life. Well, that's the plan anyway. You know. Why would I be wearing workwear? Yeah. Idleness is my point of departure every time, in fact. No, it isn't. It's my constant goal.

You're very productive for an idle.

For an idle guy. Yeah. I do a lot of work. Yeah, but it looks like idleness.

Yeah.

You've got to believe me. Try convince you. But there again, you know, I live in a crowded house and you know, if you're burdened with a conscience, sooner or later you're going to volunteer, you know. Do you need any help with that? You know, you feel it kind of morally, after a while, you feel it kind of morally incumbent upon you to offer your assistance. Do you find that? I don't know. Idleness. It's very difficult to sustain.

Yeah.

And yet ideal, you know, it's really. It's a minimum requirement in my profession.

Yes. As a poet, it's an important.

Absolutely.

Demeanor, I suppose your brain is never idle. It's constantly active and coming up with.

Yeah, try stopping it, eh? Yeah. I'm not a very good subject for hypnotists.

Have you ever tried it for that reason?

Yeah, I'm not very good. Those relaxation exercises I remember in the drug clinics, in the last drug clinic I was in, they had this hour of relaxation. I think it's in the book, isn't it?

Yeah.

And I just couldn't take it. It was winding me up something rotten. Something rotten. So I had to sort of play basketball on my own, shoot a few hoops.

I find the sound of the waves, as soon as it comes on one of those tapes, I just feel anxious.

Anxious?

Yeah. I'd rather listen to a book because the fact that it's interesting makes me switch off and then I fall asleep. And then if I wake up in the night, I hear a snippet of something interesting.

What with an audiobook?

Yeah, yeah, that's a good idea.

Yeah. It's quite a good technique, getting bored to death. Somebody's life bored to sleep.

But it's the opposite. Somehow people interested, makes you switch off from those kind of, you know, that kind of hardwire of, you know, not being able to turn off your thoughts. I wondered if you had a style icon. Is there anyone who you look up to now?

Oh, loads of them. Frank Sinatra, around the time that he made those Tony Rome movies. He played a detective called Tony Romeo. Lady in Cement was one of them.

I just remember the man with the Golden Arm that was.

Yeah, you look good in that.

Yeah.

But it's after that. It's a couple of years after that, sort of mid-60s, 65, something like that. And he's wearing lightweight, they're set in Miami. So he's wearing a lot of which I don't particularly approve of for myself. He's wearing a lot of pale suit, you know, suits, you know, tropical, but real nice, nicely cut. And those hats, those with the block front leghorn, they were first made in the town of Levorno.

Oh, yeah.

On the east of Italy. Yeah, yeah. Leg horn. And he's wearing those and three buttons. Lightweight suits. So. Yeah, that sort of period Sinatra. Well, any period, I mean, always looks good. But you know, when it comes to stuff that I would wear, you know, that sort of period of Frank and Sammy. Sammy Davis also, great dresser. Yeah, fantastic. But there we are. You see the tight suits?

Yep.

Hardly any, you know, semi structured tight suits. Nick wouldn't go for it.

Oh, he goes for.

And you know, because you're not going to look like Elvis. So forget about any of that sort of hyper, you know, kind of Elvis Got a lot of advice from Liberace.

Did he?

Yeah, yeah. He went around his place just to see, you know, how he should present himself when he was doing the Vegas shows and I think that's when he got into the jumpsuit.

Brilliant idea.

Yeah, yeah. Establishing a whole new image for the King.

Have you ever walked in a fashion show?

No, I haven't, no. No, I was asked to once by Oswald Boating, who's a tailor actually. That's.

I know him.

I love his stuff.

He's great.

You know, it's right up my street, you know, that sort of Mad Men. He was making those sort of Mad Men suits. One of those Maddie Senna, all the stuff I like, you know, Brooks Brothers, shark skin, Ivy League, you know, all the stuff I like. He was a specialist in that for a while in the 90s, wasn't he?

Yeah, he's a really good teenager.

Love his stuff.

But you said no or you couldn't do it.

Just. It never went anywhere. It's just one of them things anytime. He just said, you've got to do some more. I said, anytime you like. Oswald, just say the word. I'm not. The car never arrived, but it was at a party given by my friend Stephen Webster. The. Do you know him? Yes, Goldsmith.

Yeah, I know. He's great.

Yeah, fabulous. A very good friend of mine.

Yeah, he's a really nice man. I must.

Very nice person and a great. A great, great goldsmith. Have you got any of his stuff?

I've just got one earring. Oh, well, yeah, I just bought one. So you're the great bard of our time. John Cooper Clark. Do you write a good love letter?

Well, I don't really. I don't think I've ever done that. But I do write a good love poem, you know, on Valentine's day. Ask my Mrs. You know, I always come up with something, but. Yeah, no, I think poetry is the language of love and if I'm dealing with that subject, I deal with it in that way. You know, it kind of. Well, say no more. I want to be yours. For me, that is. You know, that's a terrific love letter. And as it has been proved, you know, it is the wedding favorite of the 21st century.

Is it really?

The number of people that have told me that they read that poem at their wedding ceremony is incredible. All over the world. Fantastic.

It's the best.

So that's how I deal with Louvre, through the medium of poetry. I've often been asked, though, if I consider myself to be a romantic, and my answer's always the same. Do I consider myself to be a romantic? To a sadistic degree.

That's the most romantic statement I've ever heard. Well, thank you so much, John Cooper Clark, for being on fashion neurosis.

It's my pleasure. I feel unburdened some somehow.