← Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud
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- [00:00]
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Interviewer
Wow.
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Jonathan Anderson
What's up? I just bought and financed a car.
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Interviewer
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Jonathan Anderson
You, the person who agonized four weeks over whether to paint your walls eggshell or off white, bought and financed a car in May. They made it easy, transparent terms, customizable, down and monthly. Didn't even have to do any paperwork. Wow.
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Interviewer
Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet.
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Jonathan Anderson
I sent you for our dinner options? Finance your car with Carvana and experience.
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Interviewer
Total control financing subject to credit approval. Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Jonathan Anderson. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these clothes?
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Jonathan Anderson
What am I wearing today? I'm. Why did I. I don't know why I chose them. I am wearing a shirt that I really love that I found in New York at this place called the Front General Store. And then usual Levi's and I don't know, I'm wearing Salomon trainers today. Yeah, everything usually is teamed with, like, a kind of jean. Usually for me, I like a uniform. So it has to be something repetitive. Ultimately, in the morning, because you dress.
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Interviewer
People in these beautiful, quite romantic looks, but how you dress yourself is quite locked down compared to your designs. And is this a deliberate distinction?
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Jonathan Anderson
I don't know. I grew up in Northern Ireland, so when I went to school, you always had a uniform. So I think I've been always kind of indoctrinated in this idea of, like, wearing the same thing. And I find with the work that I do, I think it's nearly like cooking. When you cook, sometimes it's very hard to eat it. So I don't know, I feel like I need to be some sort of, like, blank canvas to project onto other people.
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Interviewer
Ultimately, I think, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I've. I've always been obsessed with a uniform. We didn't have one at my school, but this container. And there is so much kind of, you know, chaos and hysteria in fashion that you have to have somewhere to keep it down. And I wondered, when did you first wear something that made you feel different? Like attached you to the feeling that clothes had power. How old were you?
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Jonathan Anderson
I think I must have been probably in my early teens. I remember I. There wasn't really big brand stores in Belfast. It was more kind of TK Maxx, which was like kind of where all the kind of clothing that didn't sell in stores went to. And I remember going with my mother there and buying like some crazy sort of like Jean Paul Gaultier kind of denim jeans. I think they were jeans with jeans printed on it. And there was then a kind of orange neon jacket. And I'd always been kind of obsessed by him because in school there was a. This little tiny book in the library that had like, you know, like the history of Jean Paul Gautier. There was one on Vivienne Westwood. There was one in Dolce and Gabbana.
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Interviewer
I know those books.
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Jonathan Anderson
Yeah, they're kind of like a staple.
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Interviewer
Yeah.
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Jonathan Anderson
And I just found the imagery so amazing in them. You know, there was like. I think there's an amazing image of a guy in a kind of zebra printed double breasted jacket, smoking a cigarette with like eyeliner and blonde hair. And I think there was something in that that for me I found quite alien from growing up where in Northern Ireland, where it was not about that at all. I grew up in a family which was about rugby and on a farm. So when I had. When I bought these, I never wore them randomly. I think they were kind of more like the idea of owning it or something. That you were part of it by owning it. And I think that was the first time I understood the kind of desire or kind of psychology around this idea of being a character or. I don't know, there was something in it that I think that we as humans are kind of this idea of decoration ultimately.
- [05:43]
Interviewer
And where did you. I mean, it's quite a bold statement in describing where you come from and you grew up on a farm, but had you seen something where do you think you made this kind of affiliation with showing who you. Your identity through clothes?
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Jonathan Anderson
I think it was, you know, I think maybe my parents used to always get the Sunday Times style, which was on the Sunday. Used to get these magazines that would have like, what's happening in London? It would be about fashion shows it would be about. You know, I think at that point maybe I'm wrong. I think AA Gill used to write for it.
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Interviewer
Oh, yeah, he was so good.
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Jonathan Anderson
He was so amazing. And I think it was this idea of like something which was kind of foreign and something that was like, sort of like where I felt like I needed to be able to express outside of like a kind of like of a conformist kind of environment, you know, I grew up in Northern Ireland. You know, I was born in 84. Between 84 and 90s, it was like pretty quite a complex place to live. You know, it was. You know, the troubles were in full swing. And so in a weird way, I think it was this nearly. When I look back on it, I think it was more kind of the idea of dressing up to somehow feel like you were not in something or not part of something. You know, it was like nearly like a fantasist act. And I remember being at school, like, being like people. Like those days where you could actually, I think it was every six months you could wear what you wanted to school. And I remember like, wearing like the most craziest thing to school and being completely harassed by it, like, as if like, I was like a kind of alien in this whole situation.
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Interviewer
Do you remember what you wore?
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Jonathan Anderson
I remember it was like. I think we had gone. I think my parents had drove us to the south of France to go camping once from Ireland. And we went to. It was that moment where like, decathlon was like a thing. And they were kind of like climbing trousers that had these like crazy, like kind of 90s graphics on them. And I think I wore that with like a kind of nearly like a smiley T shirt, like huge. And these are like baggy trousers that would have probably fitted my dad, so. And I remember people just being like, what are you wearing? You know, And I think that was the first time you. I sort of realized that clothing can have this sort of divisive act somehow or like, can make people feel, question, identity. Ultimately, I think. I think that's what I've been always fascinated about, clothing is this idea of the identity of when we wear something. What does it tell you about yourself, ultimately? And I've always been kind of fascinated by this idea of gender. I remember weirdly, when I was a kid, there was a little small shop in. In the town I grew up, Makafel. And I remember my mom taking me there to get, like, she would buy all her clothing. It was a womenswear store. And when there was a sale on, there was this, like, puffer jacket, like a kind of leather puffer jacket. And I remember wanting it, and then the shop assistant said, oh, but the zip goes the other way, so it's the woman's side, like, the way in which it was buttoning. And so in my head, I didn't care. And then I remember wearing it and then people saying, it's a woman's jacket, not a men's jacket. So I always was obsessed by this idea of, like, this sort of, like, the coding that you get in clothing that is enforced onto you as a child and what that meant. And in a weird way, going back to someone like Jean Paul Gautier, this idea of looking at gender and, you know, I think he really, for me, was like a kind of big influence on this idea of presenting men in a way that I was not seeing around me, ultimately.
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Interviewer
And that's so interesting about the zip and the buttoning, you know, the women's side and the men's. And did you feel. Was there any shame? Like, when someone made a note, you know, pointed that out? Did you have any shame feelings? Or did you feel like, I'm in this. I'm going to this place?
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Jonathan Anderson
I think, you know, the natural thing, I think, when you're younger is that you want to fit in, you want to be cool somehow at school. So this idea that you were doing something that you were trying to get away with but people were noticing kind of, I think, bothered me in the beginning. I was very, kind of quite sensitive when I was younger, like, very kind of. I would take everything incredibly personally. Um, and I think for me, it was like a very sort of. It was the first time I realized that there was like a, you know, that you could have judgment on wearing something that is not for your sex or something, which I think, in a weird way, nearly kind of made me more introvert when I was younger, if that makes sense. Because I think it was like you're toying with something that actually seems quite subtle in my head, but actually a bigger gesture in other people's head, ultimately.
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Interviewer
Yeah, it's so interesting that it, you know, challenged you. It was. It exposed you, and. But you had to follow it through you. And it's like that separation of protecting the introvert part by being extrovert. And it's. It's like. It doesn't make sense, but it makes sense to how you feel and how you've described it is so. What is so good? It's. You either disappear, and especially what you were talking about growing up in the Troubles, and there being so much division and separating yourself out by being a completely other thing. Another kind of world, really, that you allowed people to see.
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Jonathan Anderson
Yeah, I think it's this idea of, like. I think anyone who grows up on an island and has actually gone through kind of like a bizarre. It's a very bizarre moment in Irish history. I think there's always this thing of getting out. Ultimately. I think when you live, you kind of. When you are creative, I think you have this feeling of. To try to see other worlds, to see, is this world what it should be ultimately, you know, because, you know, when. When I was younger, during the kind of Troubles, it got very heated in the kind of between, like, 1990 and 1997 was a kind of a chaotic moment in Ireland because it was sort of like, it was the kind of beginning of the end. It was before the Good Friday Agreement. And I think when we were kids, you kind of become normalized. This idea of, like, checking underneath your car, you know. You know, you might go, you know, I remember going to school one day and driving to school, and then on the way back, the entire street was gone. Like, the entire street was blown up in mackerel. Like, quite a serious bomb that had gone off. And then it was not. The closest that it kind of got to me as a child was like, I remember my. My father's from Six Mile Cross, which is a very small town outside of Oma. And I remember my mother going to a shoe shop in Oma to return shoes. And she. She had just got a new car, and she'd parked the car at the top of the street. And Oma is quite famous for having a cross. It's a cross in the middle of the road. And I remember, as she always tells us, it was a kind of strange moment in life. And she was returning shoes, and when she got out of the shop, she went up to go get into the car, and the police officer was like, you can't go up there because there's a bomb at the top of the town or a bomb threat. And I think my mother was so, like, she just bought the car. I think she had done something where she. I think she had gone through, like, Woolworths to try to get to another car park, to get to it crazily. And then as she got to the other side of the town, the side that she was on, completely decimated, like, and which was. It was. That was. That was the kind of pinnacle in. In Ireland where it was probably the most grotesque kind of it was very big moment, which I. After that, things started to kind of realize that both sides were just destroying each other. But it was. As a child, it really affected me because it was sort of like this idea that within a kind of split moment, someone could just disappear. So it was, it was quite. It was when we were on the farm all that time, like it was that kind of like, I think was one of the half term breaks or something like that. And it was just a very strange moment in life because you kind of realize it was. That this thing was real. It was like. It was not just like seeing it as like a street gone or a bomb threat, everything. You know, there was always something. It was the first time that it became real as a kind of reality anyway. So ultimately going back, it's sort of like. I think when you live in that period. For me, the idea of fantasy, the idea of not fitting in and trying to get out was a kind of, you know, was a kind of a driving force, I think, in the idea towards creativity.
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Interviewer
Certainly intensifies the urgency.
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Jonathan Anderson
Yeah. Now that I'm 40 and living in London and Paris, I'm actually really appreciative that I did grow up in Ireland. Like my parents, my whole family lives there still. But I'm really glad that I kind of went through this process because I think you then realize it does toughen you, but at the same time it makes you see things for what they are. You know, you don't kind of. You never take it for granted, you know, in that way.
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Interviewer
Yeah, I suppose if you can. If you can survive that, I mean, literally and emotionally and really sort of. Even though it's inconceivable, it seems, you know, to. For things to be so extreme and so irrational.
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Jonathan Anderson
Yeah. And I think we forget. I think we forget about that period, I think in British Irish history somehow. I think it feels quite foreign to people now that. But it was like. It was not that long ago.
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Interviewer
Yeah, I remember it really well. I mean, I, you know, it was such a hugely important thing in the news and. And I. I think it. And when it. Now that things have changed and when it did change and there was a peace agreement, I suppose everyone wants to forget about it as fast as possible because it's so nice, things being peaceful. There's room for so much else. And I always find it incomprehensible. Why is there so much investment in conflict rather than in people living in a peaceful way?
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Jonathan Anderson
You know, when I go back to Ireland, it's such like a kind of like cosmopolitan place. Now it's sort of like, you know, it's completely morphed, which has been kind of amazing. And you look at for example, like cinema and things like that being, you know, they're more proud of what they can achieve ultimately, which I find really inspiring. And I find that it's very important for me that I did grow up there. I mean, I think it's sort of like it helps me to kind of understand how I get to where I am now today, I think.
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Interviewer
Yeah, I've never been to the north, but my family, my mother's family are from Cork, so.
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Jonathan Anderson
Beautiful.
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Interviewer
Feel very attached to Ireland and all the poetry and it just feels like a powerful place of a creatively powerful place. And that's where so many of the solutions have come from and the, the language and the talk.
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Jonathan Anderson
Yes. Just like I think, you know, I think the greatest thing about Ireland as a whole is it's about this idea of like storytelling. I think some of my all time favorite writers are from. From Ireland. Interesting enough a lot of them went left Ireland to kind of like reinterpret it. You know, if you look at Oscar Wilde, I think we forget that Oscar Wilde was from there. Or like James Joyce who like, you know, they go to kind of like reflect on it, if you know what I mean. There's something about. Because there's sort of like there is a kind of colloquialness in Ireland. But it's interesting how, how rich it is in terms of literature. Like it sort of, you know, near where I grew up, it was an amazing poet, Seamus Heaney.
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Interviewer
Wonderful.
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Jonathan Anderson
And I remember like going as a kid to go and like listen to him read because my mother was an English teacher and it was sort of like kind of fascinating that in a weird way the poet in Ireland or the writer in Ireland was nearly like the rock star in other societies. You know, like to be the writer. The poet was such a kind of important thing, you know, it was a very kind of esteemed kind of job ultimately or like profession ultimately.
- [20:53]
Interviewer
And how did you feel about your body growing up when you're so handsome and it's like you have. Seem like you have everything going for you, but a designer thing is really conflict about their own bodies and how they feel physically. I always feel it's a driver to kind of put your own sense of proportion onto other people and create something. And I wondered how you felt about your. Yourself.
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Jonathan Anderson
I think, I think the role of the designer is like you're kind of on this, like, idea of searching for perfection and imperfection, people. And I think, you know, I actually. I think it's. I think it's very difficult for me to kind of. Because I'm looking at image making or, you know, I work with some of those beautiful people in the world ultimately. And you are surrounded by this idea of trying to find perfection ultimately, that you become more. Weirdly, I would become more insecure with my own appearance because I feel I am a realist in what I look like or something. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I kind of look at myself and I kind of see my flaws and I understand where my. Not my level. I don't know what. Like how. How I am in comparison to other people, which then does make you kind of a bit sort of insecure sometimes, because you are being confronted always with something which is new. You know, the idea. You know, when you're doing fittings with or you're shooting campaigns, you're ultimately trying to find the beauty, even in the strange. Ultimately, which I do think is. As a designer that, you know, I find I sometimes. It's taken me many years to try to put myself out in front of the camera somehow because I think part of me likes to kind of be the kind of puppeteer behind the scene of a. But then as media changes, you have to sort of like. I think it's important today that you have authenticity, which is kind of a useless word to use now, but it's more about you. I think younger people want to know you and they want to believe that you believe in what you are selling, that there is. That there is a realness to it, there is an honesty to it, and that you believe in what you're making. I think that's why you realize within the job that I do, you've had to kind of. Media's changed. You have to kind of lead a bit more than you used to. I think today, the idea of the kind of the hidden designer. I think, yes, I think it can work sometimes, but I think younger people are so curious to understand process and so curious to understand storytelling that I think if you kind of deny that sort of, like, connection, then you're just sort of sort of like selling some sort of like, sterile dream ultimately. Which I think. Which I think is what sometimes lacks. I think when it gets very corporate, then I think it becomes, you know, you and the others, you know, And I think I've never. I've always wanted to kind of talk about my process because I'm Hoping that you know, in the end why I ended up in this industry is because I was inspired by other people. So then I'm hoping that other people, younger people look at me and then be inspired to try to want to do it as well.
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Interviewer
Yeah.
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Jonathan Anderson
Because I've always been interested by this idea of like replacement. I always think it's important that you always realize that you have this period of time of creativity, but the ultimate is to be replaced because that is a good sign that creativity is healthy.
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Interviewer
Ultimately what that your. You would be.
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Jonathan Anderson
Yeah, I think it's important that there's always someone out there that is going to challenge you because I think, I do think creativity has. I think there's a moment where I think you can always be creative for your entire lifetime. I think there is a moment where you can be special within a moment to the audience you're talking to. And it can be different chapters, different periods. But I don't think you can. I think it's very different than being a painter or a poet because I think you are trying to look at. You're trying to sell something to a generation or design to a generation that is either your peer or below or trying to gauge above. But there comes a moment where the reference points change or society changes ultimately. So I always think it's important that you always. In the back of my head, I always have to do what I feel is right. But I know that there will come a period in time where it may not excite me the same or there is better viewpoints than what I can suggest, if that makes sense. I think it's important that you never think you're invincible.
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Interviewer
Yeah, I suppose it certainly keeps you on your toes. Yeah. And if you fancy someone and you don't like someone, something that they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?
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Jonathan Anderson
No, I think, I think because I deal with clothing all day, I actually kind of. I'm more intrigued or attracted to people that have non engagement with it because I feel that then I don't have to explain myself or something. Do you know what I mean? And I always think it's sort of like you're always attracted to things and people that you don't do. You know, I think that. Or what they don't look like your world or something.
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Interviewer
Even sort of weird things to do with proportion or.
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Jonathan Anderson
Yeah, you don't.
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Interviewer
That doesn't phase you?
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Jonathan Anderson
No, never. I always think I was thinking in a guy when they. There is a. I always think even the kind of ugliness in clothing can always be a kind of like a fascinating thing to watch, you know, because I think it challenges your idea of proportion or color or why people decide to put those things together, you know, And I think. I think it's always curious. It always gets me more curious in someone because it's sort of. It's questioning my own idea of taste and reality or something.
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Interviewer
Yeah, you know, definitely know exactly that feeling. It's either. It's either a squasher or an opener upper.
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Jonathan Anderson
Yeah.
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Interviewer
And I saw in a little interview that you'd done that you have a shelf for awards and I wonder how much gratification that brings you and how quickly it wears off when you've got them.
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Jonathan Anderson
Yeah. In the office, there's a shelf for the awards, but the shelf is in the CEO's office. I. First of all, awards are always incredibly ugly looking as objects. I always find them. I always. They're usually like glass or some sort of strange material. There's. I think it's only once I had a really kind of one that was actually quite beautiful. Was actually the Neiman Marcus one is like this kind of beautiful, like long figure, like a kind of.
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Interviewer
What was the award for?
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Jonathan Anderson
I think it was like Design of the Year or it was something like. I think that almost was Design of the Year. I don't know. Awards are. I'm very grateful for awards ultimately, because I think it's ultimately about recognition. And maybe it's not actually just for me, it's maybe for the team because I think then it's sort of like praise of what's happening. I think the minute it's done, the evening is done, you get an award and it's done you. I feel like it doesn't really change anything or, you know, like it doesn't really. I. I don't know. I have a very. For me, it's just. I don't know how to explain.
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Interviewer
Do you have a come down, a calmed up?
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Jonathan Anderson
I. I don't think I even come up from it, if that makes sense. I feel like it's just part of it just happens. And then I think I never really want to over process something because I feel the minute I kind of feel like I know where I'm at, it's like nearly kind of like vertigo. You're, like looking down and you're kind of like, oh, this is where. This is what's happening. And I think it would prevent me from like going forward because I think you'd be like, oh, I'm really happy of who I. You Know, I think my. Which is not a good thing either, probably. But my whole thing is it's never done. I think I always feel like no matter what I'm doing, no matter if it's like building a house, being at the buffet, being at Cherubai, the project is never finished. I think the minute it would be finished, then I think I would be done.
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Interviewer
Do you have a kind of superstitious or a fear of complacent or even the hint of complacency? So you've got it. Are you afraid of enjoying it too much in case you become kind of passive?
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Jonathan Anderson
I think that's sometimes my biggest fear, that you kind of enjoy it and then you forget who you are. You know, that you morph.
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Interviewer
Yeah.
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Jonathan Anderson
So in a weird way, it can always be better for me. I know. And that's probably not great in the long run, but for me, it's sort of like. I think the minute you. The minute you see yourself for where you are, then it's so difficult to kind of like, be creative because you can't break it. I think for me, every time I start a collection, I feel like I'm destroying the entire thing to restart again. And I even have that in my. In. In the house. Like, the minute I have the house, like, everything perfect. Within, like a week, I've already, like, loaded up more stuff. And like, it's like a. It needs to always feel like a kind of continual work in progress.
- [32:23]
Interviewer
Yeah.
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Jonathan Anderson
Because I think for me, that's what excites me, is this idea that you are always trying to rebuild so that you do not feel like you are there, you know, And I think it's. I find it healthy. Some people, it might not work for, but I find it healthy because it kind of stops me from. I think it helps to keep your ego down a bit. Not down, but it keeps it contained. Because I think fashion has a tendency for you to get completely. You could get completely sucked in.
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Interviewer
Well, you seem to do an enormous amount. And I wondered, how did you meet Luca Guadagnini? Because you're doing this incredible work together.
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Jonathan Anderson
We met a long time ago, actually, in a PR in Common. Like, introduced us, and we were meant to having coffee, and then we ended up talking the entire evening about art and film, fashion. And I have a tremendous amount of respect for him. And he had this. And it was really nice because I was quite shocked that he had the same curiosity and respect for me. And it was just someone that I had met that I felt like I'd Always known, you know, I think we had such a kind of similar type of sensibility. And we just talked for ages and. And then we were about to do a project. He asked me to kind of do costume on a quite large project he was going to do. And then the pandemic and everything kind of, you know, the world went into itself, fell into itself, and. And then he. Then he got in contact and was like, I'm going to do this tennis film. Would you be interested in doing the costumes for it? And I think it was during the pandemic, as it was coming to an end, or kind of the. Kind of like the part where you could travel. And I was kind of thinking to myself, why not? Like, I have never done this. Why not? Let's try it. Completely petrified. Because it was like with MGM and it was with Amazon. It was like this whole, like, zendaya, like Josh O'Connor and Mike Feige. It was like the whole thing was like. I felt like a complete novice going into it. I just loved. I just loved it. It was an amazing experience.
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Interviewer
Were you on set quite a bit?
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Jonathan Anderson
Yeah, I was on set a lot and just. I just felt like it was so easy to work with Luca. Like, I didn't feel I had to over explain. It was nice that I wasn't the boss for a bit. Yeah, interesting. And it was such an amazing experience. And then through the process, the writer Justin Kariskis, who had written Challengers Luca, had decided that he wanted to do Queer by William Burroughs. And then suddenly he had always tried to get the rights. And then suddenly he rang to see if the rights were available and they were. And then he actioned that straight away and then got Justin Kariskis to write screenplay from the book.
- [35:40]
Interviewer
Yeah, I loved. I love Challengers. I mean, the costumes were fantastic. They were so great.
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Jonathan Anderson
It was super fun to do. It was like, unlike, you know, Josh is a very dear friend and I had known he had been working with me at Loewe for a while, and it was just really nice to kind of be part of. Not a fashion project with him, but actually something. Watching him do something which he is a master at. And that's when I met Zendaya and Mike Feist, who were. They were just an amazing trio together to watch and just really caring people and people who are just like, like, incredibly talented. It was nice to do something that was, I don't know, like, it was an escape from my own reality of my own day job, which I think is what I enjoyed the most. And then obviously, Queer we shot at Chinichita in Rome, which was a period film, which was another kind of like, can I do this? And Luca has this incredible ability to put people into situations where they're in the deep end and kind of he trusts a lot, I think, which I think is very rare to find in people to be able to trust and let go and bring people that you feel like are going to kind of create an interesting soup.
- [37:08]
Interviewer
Ultimately, I'm dying to see Queer. I mean, I read the book yet when I was a teenager, and I love William Burroughs, but I was reading somewhere that you. You got ideas for the costumes for some painters, Paul Cadmus and Jared French, who I'd never heard of. And I looked them up and you got everything. I mean, it was so powerful, the atmosphere in those paintings. And I mean, I just watched the trailer of Queer and you had it all there. And how did you find. And also you captured the atmosphere of their queerness so well. Now, did you. How did you find out? Did you already know those painters?
- [37:53]
Jonathan Anderson
Yeah, I've always been obsessed by that group of American painters and photographers, you know, because it's such an amazing moment, like, where you have like Paul Cadmus, you've got George Platt, Lyons, Jarred French, you have all these kind of amazing queer artists in a period where being queer must have been incredibly divisive in America, creating just incredible work. Like, I think George Lyons is one of the most under estimated photographers in. In history, because I think. I think he was one of the greatest photographers in terms of lighting. He understood lighting, I think, better than any contemporary photographer today. And I think he really kind of mapped out like a roadmap in terms of like shooting the male form, you know, shooting ballet, shooting performance. And, you know, I don't think you would have had someone like Mapplethorpe or even Peter Hujar without someone like George Cut Lyons. Yeah, and me and Luca on the film, we discussed it a lot. And there's these amazing images that he had done where he had done like these surrealistic images where he kind of like cuts negatives up and then kind of montages them together. Like, Man Ray was experimenting with it and. But I just felt like, you know, it was, you know, with Burroughs, it's sort of like, you know, the film sort of set in end of the 40s, beginning of the 50s. And I just felt there was something so kind of, you know, with like, someone like Kadna, so painterly, but realism. And there is a kind of desire, like, I think the male gaze on the man or the Boy. There is something about this that I think in that period there was. There was such naivety in terms of image making, in terms of queer culture that I find really fascinating. So it became a kind of like a bedrock for like, Allerton, which is played by Drew Starkey. That's how I kind of got to the kind of characterization of him was like. It was looking at that period as well as looking at another amazing British painter called Glyn Philpott.
- [40:22]
Interviewer
I've heard that name, yeah.
- [40:24]
Jonathan Anderson
And he has got these. He does it and he did these beautiful paintings, sort of society pictures, where they're kind of like. They look like pastel, but they're kind of oil, but they're kind of like stippled and they're usually like kind of pale. There was this amazing one I found that was like. Of like a guy in a kind of yellow shirt and these sort of like pale gray trousers. And I. When going to find everything for the film, it was like, this is who I was trying to. I was recreating this painting into this person. But this is the most rewarding part of being creative is actually being curious in other people's creativity. This is what I love.
- [41:09]
Interviewer
I agree. Yeah.
- [41:11]
Jonathan Anderson
So exciting to find things. There's. Every day I find something in creativity that I have never seen. This is the most amazing thing about the time we live in. There's like. There is so much resource to be able to find new things. I. Every day I come across a new artist I'd never heard of music that I've never heard before writing that I had never. Writers I've never even heard of. And I love that. I love, actually I love when someone goes, oh, you know this person. I love being able to say, no, I don't. Because it means that you found something in a day that you never knew existed, you know, And I think you.
- [41:59]
Interviewer
Seem to have a real talent for that. You're in your work. What everybody loves about what you do is that you're always showing that, you know, your curiosity about other mediums and the craft thing that you. You've brought into high fashion and you do so much. You've got your own brand. J.W. anderson, Loewe Uniqlo, which I love. And this, you know, the film work and I mean, it's a huge amount. And how do you cope with the pressure and how do you handle extreme feeling? Because it's so intense in. I mean, you're right at the top and the intensity is very mood altering. And I Wondered how you deal with, you know, with the feeling. It's like a juggernaut.
- [42:59]
Jonathan Anderson
Yeah. I think there's sometimes I, I don't have a reality of how much work I am doing. There is moments on weekends where I do stop, where I'm kind of like, I can't be around anyone. I don't know. I feel that, first of all, I have two incredible teams of people. You know, when I work on a film, I build and get to work with incredible people. So you have to trust. I think for me, I'm incredibly curious about everything. I feel like I want to discover everything and I want to kind of learn from it, but I don't micromanage. I, I, I feel like I let people do their thing because I want them to kind of be able to feel part of it. So for me, it's a kind of, I feel like if you have the right people around you, it prevents you from blowing up. And I think you have to be continu. Continuously curious or then what would be the point? Yeah, in, in the kind of creative act of it. It is high pressured. I think I quite, I think as I get older, I get more used to it, which is probably not healthy either. But at the same, you have capacity.
- [44:33]
Interviewer
I mean, it's interesting. You seem to have quite a lot of agility. I mean, it's a lot. But, you know, the more you do, the more you can do.
- [44:41]
Jonathan Anderson
So I think it's a, it's like a muscle. It's like exercise. As you kind of keep practicing it, you then work out different bandwidths of how to achieve more or finding people that do the things that you cannot do. I'm in a very kind of fascinating moment because I feel like I have kind of built up a kind of stamina to be able to have, like, people around. I have teams that worked for me. Some people have worked for me for 11 years. Some people work for me for 15 years. I have a very kind of loyal group of people that have always worked with me because I want people to feel invested. In what? In the project itself. And I feel like when people are not feeling that they're contributing and getting the recognition from it, then why would they want to be part of it? You know? So I think I want people to be proud of the project.
- [45:42]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [45:42]
Jonathan Anderson
And I think this actually helps because I think, you know, it can be incredibly intense. I can be tough. I'm sure a lot of people who are my dear friends will probably say that.
- [45:56]
Interviewer
But how does that come out when you say you're tough.
- [45:59]
Jonathan Anderson
I think I'm tough because I kind of. I. When I hire people, I always hire people that I admire and I can see potential in, and I can. I want to push people to the point where they feel free enough to express themselves without feeling any judgment, you know, So I don't like yes people at all. I like people to challenge me. So. And I want people to contribute without feeling embarrassed of what they want to creatively show. So I. Being surrounded by yes people always can really, really irritate me because you're kind of. Then you're not challenging the situation or challenging the fashion show or challenging the image making. Like, I work with a site, it's called Benjamin Bruno, who's like, one of my best friends who I've worked with for, like, over 15 years now. And we're both very good at kind of agitating each other to kind of make sure that we are trying to find subtlety in newness.
- [47:11]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [47:12]
Jonathan Anderson
And I think that is one of the most important things in a creative process, is that you have to find people that are going to keep you on the ground and to continually keep challenging yourself.
- [47:27]
Interviewer
Yeah. You can't trust the sycophant.
- [47:29]
Jonathan Anderson
Yeah. And so. And I think that's what I love about what I do. I love the people I work with. It's like a family of people, and everyone's going after this thing, which is to try to find newness in something that already exists. You know, you're trying to reinvent a trouser, you're trying to reinvent the dress. These sort of, like, archetypes you're trying to reinvent sometimes eight times a year. And I kind of love that with. When I work with people, for me, the team, for me is the most exciting thing because, like, there's nothing better when you find someone that challenges you in what can be new. But, yeah, the job. Sometimes I actually think the only part when you are working a lot is sometimes you can get quite isolated. You know, it's sort of like you're trying, you know, even, like, for me, sometimes even just trying to organize dinner with a friend becomes, like, such a mission that you're trying to work out. Are you in Paris? Are you in London?
- [48:40]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [48:41]
Jonathan Anderson
Are you traveling? Are you not traveling? And you're trying to find these, like, windows to be normal in. In terms of, like, just even having dinner with someone. It can be. This sometimes is probably the most frustrating part, you know, because you're kind of. Your. Your time can be quite consumed with the. The creative act.
- [49:04]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [49:05]
Jonathan Anderson
And the huge things, you know, going back to what was I was talking about earlier. The minute you know where you are, then I think you become self reflective and then you in a weird way get sort of scared that. Scared that you won't challenge yourself or something because you kind of feel at one with what you produce or something.
- [49:28]
Interviewer
And you're a Francis Bacon fan. Yeah, I think. And I mean, I've got that print.
- [49:36]
Jonathan Anderson
I know.
- [49:37]
Interviewer
I wish it was a real thing, but it's a fantastic print. And I quite often used his colours as references for interiors. And in that room over there there's a carpet which when I saw the swatch, I thought, oh, that's real Francis Bacon oranges. And you use color in a very nuanced way. And I love the way you use pink in your collections. I just find there's something very kind of. And Francis Bacon uses quite a lot of pink in his work. Do you look at things for ideas or do you read for ideas or is it kind of a mixture or is there no specific.
- [50:25]
Jonathan Anderson
I. I actually love putting combinations of colors together. I don't think I do it in a kind of. No, actually sometimes I did a collection straight after the pandemic. I'm obsessed by the painter Pontormo.
- [50:41]
Interviewer
Never heard of him.
- [50:43]
Jonathan Anderson
The like Renaissance painter. And he. They had cleaned the Descent of. Of Christ, which is in. I think it's in Florence. Is it Florence? I think it's in Florence.
- [50:58]
Interviewer
Maybe I'm wrong in the ufiti. Is it one of those.
- [51:01]
Jonathan Anderson
And it's in a church and it was like. I probably got the. It's maybe not far anyway, my brain's gone.
- [51:07]
Interviewer
Doesn't matter.
- [51:08]
Jonathan Anderson
But it's this amazing altarpiece and they cleaned it and it looks like the most cacophonic motion of chiffon and color and pink and blue and purple and red and green. This is the most incredible painting. It's probably one of my all time favorite paintings. And they just restored it. There's very little works by Pontormont in the world. And I remember actually being like after the pandemic, which I felt like I had refound a new type of creative energy because I think it was like the idea that either you do a show, it has to mean something or you do a show and it has to work because then you'll keep your job. I think it was one of those sort of things. And I based an entire collection on that one painting because I just found it. The colors were just the mo I think for me painting, I don't paint, but for me, I am so fascinated by brain to hand, this idea that you can do brain to hand, color paint and be able to kind of take the world and, like, reflect it into some sort of, like, emotional, like, output.
- [52:38]
Interviewer
Do you draw yourself?
- [52:40]
Jonathan Anderson
I kind of. I will. If I get frustrated, if I can't get an idea, I will start to kind of roughly sketch out something if I'm trying to explain something to someone. But I don't illustrate fashion. I do a lot of it on the body, and a lot of it's sort of experimenting through toiles, ultimately.
- [53:00]
Interviewer
And that's where the brain to hand. I'm a real believer in that.
- [53:05]
Jonathan Anderson
So when I look at painters, I'm always, like, mesmerized by it, because I think it's. You're doing your. The brain to hand is then doing these crazy things to mix color and to kind of work out how to build up. You know, if you look at bacon, you are creating a visual language which is like writing that when you look at it, you know, it's bacon.
- [53:29]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [53:30]
Jonathan Anderson
Which for me, I think my brain doesn't work that way, so I find it so inspiring. This, for me is like, you know, I could be at museums all day. I. You know, I could. There is nothing better than looking at painting, because I think it's sort of. It makes you. I think it makes you realize where you stand in the world somehow. I think it kind of, you know, for me, it's that whole thing. There's always better. You know, it's sort of like when you look at a Turner or, you know, you see a, you know, Holbein, for example, I find. I find it mesmerizing like a Holbein. For me, when you go into. When you go to the National Gallery and you see works by Holbein, it's sort of like you're like, we think we're modern today, but are we, you know, I think, you know, somehow.
- [54:28]
Interviewer
They always hit the spot somehow, don't they?
- [54:31]
Jonathan Anderson
Yeah, I think it's sort of like. I think it's so attractive as well. I think it's so. I think it's very sexy. Someone who can actually imitate life or paint life.
- [54:42]
Interviewer
You're very good at images which represent your work. Like the penis key ring. I loved that. That was so good. And the bag, the bird bag. And I always remember a car on a jumper that you made in a circle. I remember that so well. And I think about it sometimes when I'M just stuck somewhere and think how beautiful that was. It was so simple. I always remember thinking, God, I wish I'd thought of something like that. And how do you know when something will translate?
- [55:21]
Jonathan Anderson
I know when it translates in front of me because I feel like when we're doing a show, you know what is new in your own repertoire, you know what you've pushed something. It. When you know something is going to commercially work, it's very difficult to know. Like, for example, if you take the pigeon bag at J.W. anderson, that was like. That was me. That was a kind of joke. At one point when we were doing styling, it was. It kind of. There was this, like, bird. And I think it just helped with, like articulating the look. I never knew it was going to kind of turn into the thing it did. I think you could never predict those things, you know, like sometimes at Loewe, you know, like, it's like designing handbags and we're trying to come up with new leather goods and you'll have a bag which you think is going to be a massive success and it will be a total failure and then the one that you least expect will be the one that works. So for me, it's sort of like in my own creative process, when I'm doing a show or creating a range of products in front of me, you always know that there is a kind of. You're trying to find this, like, tension in how far you can push something within the normality of the structure. So it's like a sweater with a dot on it. I love that show. That's like an early JW show.
- [56:51]
Interviewer
An early.
- [56:52]
Jonathan Anderson
It was an early JW Allison show that we had done where it was like ruffled boots and we had these like. It was like with a yellow dot, a blue dot and a red dot. I think it was.
- [57:00]
Interviewer
They were great. I love those.
- [57:02]
Jonathan Anderson
And I just thought it was like this sort of. Sometimes the kind of simplicity in the act of something makes it quite surreal.
- [57:10]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [57:12]
Jonathan Anderson
Because you're kind of. When you look at the body, I think they were white and red and white and yellow, but it's nearly like you're. Once you kind of put that on a three dimensional form of the body, it becomes quite a strange thing. So even actually something quite simple then becomes quite odd in the kind of. The kind of silhouette. But yeah, I think it's about. Sometimes I like to push quite far. And then there's moments where I think just raising the waistline of a jean and a kind of men's shirt and you're kind of screwing with the proportion might be all that you want to do. And, you know, I think it's about putting the gas on gas off somehow.
- [57:58]
Interviewer
And with your campaigns, you, I mean, they're just so much fun. They're so great. And I love the Daniel Craig campaign because it was fun and high fashion. And he's quite obsessed with clothes, isn't he? And he's almost like, I mean, the few times I've met him, I remember meeting him once and he said, oh, is that Aussie Clark you're wearing? And it was. And it was, it was so disconcerting because, you know, he just had this, this fashion eye. And I, I, I mean, the undone belt in that one of the pictures, I, I'm intrigued by how you decided. Why did you leave the belt like that? And you seem to connect with the people you invite to take part in your campaigns as though they've always wanted to do think something like this and always wanted to wear clothes in this way. And these clothes, they're so ingenious. Tell me more.
- [59:03]
Jonathan Anderson
How do you think with Daniel? It was like we'd worked together on, On Queer with Luca, and, and I just found, I think the amazing thing about Daniel, he is one of the greatest, greatest actors. Like, it just, he, you know, one of my favorite films is Love of the as the Devil, which is by Francis Bacon.
- [59:33]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [59:35]
Jonathan Anderson
And there is something about Daniel where when you are talking to him, he has a connection to you, an eye contact that is so as if it's like reading straight into you. His eyes have got this amazing ability to kind of make you at one to talk to. And then I was just like, let's do a campaign together. And I kind of had this. I was speaking to David Simmons, and we wanted to kind of do something which was like kind of norm quorum kind of sort of thing. But at the same time, I had this, like, weird fantasy. It could nearly look like a bit like, not Iggy Pop. Iggy Pop. That's what it is.
- [60:18]
Interviewer
Because some of the poses.
- [60:19]
Jonathan Anderson
Yeah. And I have these, like, mood imagery of, like, Iggy Pop, like, where he, I think he was like, he was coming the magazine. He was like, naked on the front of her kind of magazine at one point. And when I look at Daniel, I love that he can kind of morph into these different characters. And he was so game for it, you know? I mean.
- [60:43]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [60:43]
Jonathan Anderson
And the reason why the belt on the thing is undone is the whole show. That collection was from everything was attached to each other. So the socks, the trouser, the belt was one unit. So it was actually only half a belt on the trousers. And then you had a jacket, shirt and tie was all attached to each other. So I became obsessed by this idea of, like, the new type of uniform. The idea that you could just like, throw two pieces on or one piece on to do a look. So that's why the belt is just on one side.
- [61:17]
Interviewer
Right.
- [61:19]
Jonathan Anderson
But he was. He's so fascinating. It was such a Fascinating, you know, like, there's nothing more exciting working with people that will entirely let go to the situation. That's when you get the greatest imagery. The minute that people start to get a bit controlling of it is when you lose the mystique of the character. So I think in the campaigns, the ones that really work are the ones where people just let go to the process. Like when we shot Maggie Smith with. Yeah, that was Jurgen Teller. And I think that was. It was so. I'd always wanted. It was like my dream. I'd asked so many times. I'd always wanted to shoot her for the wedding, really. And it was like a no and a no and a no. And then suddenly she was like, yes, sure, let's do it. And we shot it like a. Like a gay bar somewhere outside of London. And it was just classic Jurgen, where he just within, Like, I think the shot was within five minutes. And he has this amazing capability of finding the reality in someone that no one may have ever met and finds this. That kind of amazing beauty within them that is just so fascinating to me to watch. Like, when Jurgen shoots. Like, when we've done loads of shoots with Jurgen, it's just watching him just find this little, like, slither of light into someone that really tells them the honesty of that person. And for me, it was such a milestone. Maggie Smith, because it was like. It was like, kind of. For me, it was like one of the highlights of, like, when I look at my work that I've done, I love that image. I just think it's sort of like. I think it tells you everything that the wave is about, you know, and.
- [63:17]
Interviewer
That sort of people somehow. There she is. I mean, she's pretty old in that picture and wearing all these wonderful clothes and makes you feel invested in the whole of your life, rather than just a bit of it that you can dress up and have fun and be attractive in.
- [63:34]
Jonathan Anderson
Yeah. And I think what I always found so inspiring about Maggie Smith is that the face, her face changes with time. And there is a Reality in the character of that time, you know, so, like, when, you know, I think we have become so obsessed by our faces now because we have camera phones and filters and. But what I love the most attractive people are the people that you look at and you go, their face wears, their time on this planet. You know, that's where I think people become so beautiful. Like, when I look at. When I met her on set, I was just like, your face tells me the history of you. And I think that is, you know, if you look at great painters, you want to paint faces that tell you that they've done something that they. And I think that's why when I pick people for campaigns, I always want them to be people that they feel their age or they feel that they have something to say, that they're going to be great at dinner. You know, I feel like anyone that I put in a campaign, I feel if I couldn't go to dinner with them, then. Then what would be the point? You know what I mean? I would. I want someone who's gonna, like, have a. Tell you a great story or. Yeah.
- [65:08]
Interviewer
And who are your friends in the business? Do you have any designer friends or is there people. Anyone you look up to or do you kind of keep out of the business?
- [65:19]
Jonathan Anderson
I don't. I have a very tight group of friends. You know, like, Ben is like my best friend in terms of. In fashion. You know, I think he is someone that I really look up to, someone who I think is. I think he's one of the greatest stylists of. Of my generation. And I think he. I think he sees fashion in a different way than I see it, and I think that's why I just really look up to him in that way. And then other designers, I. You know, I think most designers will. You know, you're ending up in the studio all the time. You don't really get to hang out. You know, the LVMH prize is always quite great to kind of sit and, like, meet young designers and be around people who work at lvmh, different brands.
- [66:07]
Interviewer
Do you wear anyone else's clothes?
- [66:11]
Jonathan Anderson
I really struggle. I don't. I primarily wear Uniqlo and Levi's. And I love the store in New York called. What's it called? Front Channel Store. And it's just. I just love going in there because it's like. It's all vintage and kind of Japanese, like T shirts and things like that. I don't know. I think I struggle to wear other design. I think it's like A territorial. I don't know what it is actually. I think it's sort of. I feel like it would be. It's a very strange act to do. Like I can, I can obsess over like there's some clothing I just love that people have done. I don't know if I would wear. I can't. I don't know if I have the confidence sometimes to wear it. Like it's a very strange thing to do. Some people are very good at it. I would love to wear a fashion weirdly but I think going. It goes back to that self confidence thing. I think I design. I love doing menswear and I love kind of pushing menswear because I think it's me a fantasy act of what I would love to be able to wear, you know that I feel that I would just love to be able to pull it off. And I think that's what drives me to do it. But no, I don't know if I hang out with many designers. That's awful. I know some that I really like. You know, I used to do windows for Prada and I think one of the people that I. I still find, I think it's greatly important in fashion for so many decades and is still consistently relevant is Mitra Prana. I just think she. I think by working, even just doing the windows, I think for me, I think Prada had the biggest effect on me because I think it made me look at fashion in a completely different way. I love that she. There is a psychology to it. There is. There is good taste and bad taste. There is like the history of art in it. There is how to make fun of yourself, how to be. You know, I think she is. I think she's just magical and I think every time I see a show or something or even when she's talking creatively, I just think there is not many people in the world like that and. And I think, you know, it's. I think she's incredibly important for the kind of birth of modern clothing today that we see it. And I actually think she's done so much in menswear that that for me really shaped me as a designer and I just. Yeah, I think it's sort of. It's nice to look up to people. Yeah, I think, you know, it's sort of like I even like when I was at university I just thought Hedi Slimane was like the most amazing thing. Like I remember, I remember taking a part time job in Selfridges and I was just completely obsessed by Dior, Homme in that moment. Because it was like. It was such a movement in London. It was like. It was such a kind of moment. Yeah. It was actually one of the crazy. Not to kind of go like, off on a kind of tangent, but I remember meeting, when I was at university at a party. I think you might have been at it. I think it was at someone. I think it was someone's house at the Clash. Was it the Clash? Someone from the Clash. And I think your father was there.
- [70:19]
Interviewer
Oh, it must have been at Paul and Trisha's house.
- [70:21]
Jonathan Anderson
Yeah. And. And Hedy was there. And it was, you know, when it was like kind of like that moment where you're just like. You had met, like, your idol or something. It was like this, like. It was such a thing. It was. Because it was like music, it was fashion, it was subculture. It was like. And then elegance. Jermaine. So I've always. Weirdly, the combination between those two people, I think. I think. I like that they. I like that they had an effect on me, you know? And I think today we're so proud of being. That we just are us and we just. That we are. That we never came from anything but, you know, like, like, great paintings or, like, great music. There is nothing better than when a person inspires you in that way.
- [71:12]
Interviewer
Yeah. Couldn't agree more.
- [71:15]
Jonathan Anderson
Because that means that you're kind of like. It is good to be influenced by things, because I think, you know, I've always. I'm obsessed by. At the Prado in Spain, you have the huge corridor of, like, some of the greatest paintings in history.
- [71:35]
Interviewer
Yeah. All the Goyas.
- [71:36]
Jonathan Anderson
Yeah. And you've Goya, which. That amazing room. And then upstairs, you have, like, Adam and Eve painted by one by Rubens and one by Titian. They look exactly the same, but they're completely different hands.
- [71:51]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [71:52]
Jonathan Anderson
But I like this thing that, you know, sometimes you have to emulate to learn. And I think we are, I think, fashion through. For some reason, everyone became so, like, territorial ownership over things. I designed this first. I did this. It's always, always, like, this thing that we. And I think I was like that for a bit. Because you're like, I did that. How dare you? And then you realize that it's actually more exciting to design something, put it out in the world and let go of it. This is the thing I think has helped me to keep saying somehow that is actually amazing to be influenced by a painting. It's amazing to be influenced by another designer, because I think that helps to Kind of like progress the fashion narrative or like push kind of things because you're kind of not being. You're not self censoring yourself. And I think there was a phase, weirdly that fashion went through this thing that's like. I think it was like. I think social media went through this like, kind of like shaming of like where things came from. And I don't think this is helpful for me. This, like, you know, if you look at creativity and painting, for example, and this idea of learning, you know, you would have learned from the old masters, then you would have, you know, and the, you know, a lot of some of the contemporary painters are great painters. Like over the last hundred years they would have looked to like, they would have maybe done an interpretation of Goya or they would have done an interpretation of Rembrandt. Like, this I think is interesting because ultimately you are trying to rediscover yourself through the creative process that you love.
- [73:54]
Interviewer
Yeah. And I think, I think that's so well put. It's. I'd like to thank you so much, Jonathan, for being on Fashion Neurosis and so many interesting ideas.
- [74:06]
Jonathan Anderson
It's. Yeah.
- [74:07]
Interviewer
Thank you so much.
- [74:08]
Jonathan Anderson
Usually when I do interviews, I've always said it's like every time I go to do an interview, it's like going to the shrink. That's the first time that I actually feel like I'm at the shrink. But thank you so much.
- [74:20]
Interviewer
Well, I've learned so much as well from you. I, I totally agree about that thing that you were just saying about learning from other people and rep and doing their thing. Because my father did that. He. Yeah, you know, he did a painting of Watteau's painting. He did a Corot. I mean, I don't want to call it a copy, but he just looked at it and did it. So. And it's, it kind of brings up a whole like the brain to hand thing. It. Something else comes out of it and.
- [74:55]
Jonathan Anderson
Yeah, and I think those are actually amazing works that he did because I think it's actually about the appreciation of the history of painting.
- [75:04]
Interviewer
Also, you know, found this, which. It was in his studio and I somehow. I don't know why it was lying on the floor and I just thought you'd appreciate that.
- [75:15]
Jonathan Anderson
Yeah, that's amazing. But no, thank you so much for having me. I feel incredibly relaxed now.
- [75:24]
Interviewer
Great.