Fashion Neurosis with Kate Moss

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud – Episode Featuring Kate Moss

Release Date: November 13, 2024

In this captivating episode of Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud, renowned supermodel Kate Moss joins host Bella Hadid for an intimate and insightful conversation exploring the intricate relationship between fashion and personal identity. The discussion delves deep into their personal journeys within the fashion industry, their influences, body image, and the evolving dynamics of fashion as a form of self-expression.

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1. Early Influences and First Fashion Experiences

Bella Hadid reminisces about her early fascination with fashion, tracing back to her childhood experiences. She shares a poignant memory of fighting for her beloved ankle strap shoes at the age of eight:

"[00:59] Bella Hadid: ...I had to get over it because the photographer was like, if you don't do this, I'm not gonna book you for the next job. So I had to get over it..."

Kate Moss complements Bella’s story by reflecting on her teenage years in London, recalling her purchase of wedges with ankle straps at fourteen:

"[02:38] Kate Moss: ...I was 14 then. And I remember going home on the train, pulling up my skirt and putting my feet on the seat across and like thinking, admiring."

Both anecdotes highlight the pivotal role early fashion choices play in shaping personal style and confidence.

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2. Body Image and Overcoming Insecurities

The conversation naturally transitions to body image, a crucial aspect of their lives as models. Bella Hadid opens up about her struggles with a mole and the pressure to appear flawless:

"[03:56] Bella Hadid: ...I was just like, nobody really gives a crap about my mole. So..."

She candidly discusses the emotional toll of early modeling experiences, particularly a topless photoshoot at fifteen:

"[04:23] Bella Hadid: ...I had to get over it because the photographer was like, if you don't do this, I'm not gonna book you for the next job."

Kate Moss empathizes, acknowledging the courage required to navigate such vulnerabilities:

"[05:58] Kate Moss: It must have taken a lot of courage. I mean, everyone else had those pictures on their tear sheets, you know, as inspiration, because it was so fresh and beautiful. You looked so amazing."

Their shared experiences shed light on the often unspoken emotional challenges within the modeling world.

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3. Personal Style and Inspirational Figures

Bella and Kate delve into their personal style inspirations, with Bella paying homage to the legendary designer Vivienne Westwood:

"[06:53] Kate Moss: Do you remember the first time you found a piece of clothing that made you feel different?"
"[07:41] Bella Hadid: ...I like Vivienne Westwood, like the bustier... It was proper fashion in Koijan. That was the look."

Kate Moss highlights Anita Pallenberg as a significant influence, praising her fearless approach to fashion:

"[17:10] Bella Hadid: ...Anita inspired me because of her love for fashion... She knew so much about it as well, and she kind of... She was really... She had an amazing taste."
"[17:44] Kate Moss: She put things together in such an original way."

These exchanges underscore the importance of iconic figures in shaping their distinctive styles.

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4. Fashion as a Means of Communication and Identity

The discussion shifts to fashion as a language, conveying personal and cultural identities. Bella expresses her disdain for repetitive fashion trends and codes:

"[15:17] Kate Moss: ...it's the code, isn't it?... There are other messages. So it's like a love test."
"[15:55] Bella Hadid: ...I hate fashion codes... It's all the same bag from every designer I was like, what the fuck is the point in doing that?"

Kate Moss adds her perspective on the transient nature of trends:

"[16:37] Kate Moss: Yeah, trends are terrible. Because as soon as they become a trend, you're dated the minute you're trendy."

Their insights critique the superficiality of fleeting trends, advocating for more authentic and personalized fashion choices.

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5. Friendships and Support Systems in the Fashion Industry

Bella and Kate emphasize the importance of friendships and support networks within the often competitive fashion world. Bella recounts how seasoned models like Naomi and Christy took her under their wing:

"[30:53] Bella Hadid: ...Christy and Naomi kind of took me under their wing... Carla Bruni, she was so nice to me. She took me for dinner once..."

Kate Moss acknowledges the camaraderie and loyalty that exists despite the industry's challenges:

"[31:25] Kate Moss: What you don't hear about... is all the loyalties in the fashion world. And I know there's loads of terrible stuff, but there's a lot of good stuff. There's a lot of friendships, and people do look out for each other."

These narratives highlight the resilience and solidarity that models cultivate amidst the demands of their careers.

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6. Evolution of Fashion Shows and Industry Practices

Reflecting on the evolution of fashion shows, Bella contrasts the elaborate, long-running shows of the past with today's fast-paced, often rushed presentations:

"[29:21] Kate Moss: And then fashion shows were much longer then as well. It went on for ages."
"[29:33] Bella Hadid: Now they have one look and they have like five hours of hair and makeup or something ridiculous... I wouldn't get away with that."

Kate Moss reminisces about the chaos and excitement of traditional shows:

"[30:12] Kate Moss: Yeah. Everyone knew what to do. Even though it was complete chaos."

Their discussion underscores a nostalgic appreciation for the former grandeur and community spirit of fashion events.

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7. Confidence and Empowerment through Fashion

Both Bella and Kate discuss how fashion serves as a tool for confidence and empowerment. Bella shares coping mechanisms during low moments, such as dressing in comfortable yet aesthetically pleasing attire:

"[37:40] Bella Hadid: ...a nice nighty... something pretty... makes me feel better."

Kate Moss relates this to her experience with a personal poem, emphasizing the psychological impact of clothing:

"[42:55] Kate Moss: ...when you can feel totally unconfident, you can get the clothes to do the job for you... Your confidence comes and you know that you have in your wardrobe these resources."

Their insights reveal the profound connection between fashion and mental well-being.

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8. Personal Anecdotes and Light-Hearted Stories

Injecting humor and personal anecdotes, Bella recounts dressing her younger brother as a drag queen named Sylvia:

"[10:10] Bella Hadid: ...I made up a friend... making him ring the doorbell and pretend he was my friend... He looks like a really major drag queen, like, but as an 8-year-old."

Kate Moss shares a playful memory of her father’s fashion sense:

"[43:24] Bella Hadid: ...He had that same look all the time... like that herringbone coat... it looked like an animal had its coat on."

These stories add a personal and relatable dimension to their discussion, showcasing their playful and creative sides.

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9. The Significance of Footwear in Personal Style

A recurring theme in their conversation is the importance of footwear in defining personal style. Bella describes the joy of gifting and wearing distinctive shoes:

"[38:16] Bella Hadid: ...something from India... Two Kate shoes." "[39:50] Kate Moss: I love to have elevation. That makes me feel I can do anything."

They discuss the practicality and emotional resonance of certain shoe styles, highlighting how footwear can be both a statement and a source of empowerment.

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10. Reflections on the Future of Fashion and Personal Growth

As the conversation draws to a close, Bella and Kate reflect on their personal growth and ongoing relationship with fashion:

"[35:19] Kate Moss: ...How many Vogue covers have you done now?"
"[35:32] Bella Hadid: ...I do strip... I do quite like stripping as my... I think it was..."

Bella expresses gratitude for the enduring support from the fashion community, emphasizing the importance of maintaining authentic connections:

"[32:16] Kate Moss: ...You're the same as me, aren't you? Really?..."

Their dialogue underscores a commitment to evolving within the fashion landscape while staying true to their personal identities.

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Conclusion

This episode of Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud offers a profound exploration of how fashion intertwines with personal identity, confidence, and relationships. Through heartfelt anecdotes and candid discussions, Bella Hadid and Kate Moss illuminate the transformative power of clothing and style in navigating the complexities of life and the fashion industry.

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For more insights and engaging conversations on the intersection of fashion and identity, visit www.fashionneurosis.com and follow @fashionneurosis_bellafreud on social media.

Transcript

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[Kate Moss]

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Kate Moss.

[Bella Hadid]

Hi, Bella.

[Kate Moss]

Can you describe what you're wearing today and why you chose these clothes?

[Bella Hadid]

I was inspired by you today, actually. This is an old Saint Laurent dress, but it reminds me of the kind of things, the kind of like masculine, feminine that you wear. And I'm wearing a Vivienne Westwood sex shoe because that's what I associate you with as well. Like that's how I, when I met you, just left Vivienne and I know that she inspired you a lot. So that's why I chose this today.

[Kate Moss]

I like the sheer tight as well. That's. Yeah, really very pretty and very, very kind of. Belle de Jour. Yeah, with the sex shoe.

[Bella Hadid]

Oh yeah. She's always a good look, isn't it? Reference Belle Bau de Jour.

[Kate Moss]

I wanted to ask you whether fashion was a thing in your household and did you have to ever fight to wear the things you wanted to wear?

[Bella Hadid]

I definitely never thought of my house as a fashion household ever. I was never like, I want that dress or any. Or you know, no, it wasn't, but. And I had to fight for a pair of ankle strap shoes because my mum said they were common and. And eventually I got them from Ravel, I think I was about 8. And I remember driving home with them on. They were pale pink ankle straps and I was like, oh my God. I couldn't stop looking at them and I just wanted to sleep in them and I loved them so much. It's funny, isn't it?

[Kate Moss]

Yeah. I remember we didn't really have new things and I came to London and visited my dad and he took me to this shop, it was called T T Elliot on the corner of Westbourne Grove. And I bought these, these wedges with a blue. They had ankle Straps too.

[Bella Hadid]

It's all about an ankle strike. Well, how old were you?

[Kate Moss]

I was 14 then.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

And. And I remember going home on the train, pulling up my skirt and putting my feet on the.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

Seat across and like thinking, admiring. Finally.

[Bella Hadid]

I think it is something about an ankle strap being like sexy, isn't it? Like it's still now when I wear an ankle strap, it's like, it feels like a bit. It's. There is something.

[Kate Moss]

It's sort of demure, but there's this thing holding your ankle.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah. It definitely draws attraction to the ankle and probably at the ankle is quite a sexual part of your body.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah. Like even in Jane Austen and stuff, they go on about the ankle or the wrist, you know, these bits that they get to see.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

Do you have any hang ups about your body?

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, of course.

[Kate Moss]

Because you're so good at. I mean, I've watched you working and you just treat yourself as an instrument and you act as though you have no self consciousness and. And you're dazzling. Like in those vampire films where they talk about the vampires glamorizing someone. And you do that when you're working. You glamorize everyone and we become spellbound by you.

[Bella Hadid]

Well, I think at very young age I started working and I started doing pictures topless. And I was very, very conscious of. I have a mole on my right tit. And I hated it so much, I would cry. I never wanted to show, never wanted to be topless. I would cry. And I had to get over it because the photographer was like, if you don't do this, I'm not gonna book you for the next job. So I had to get over it. And so then I was just like, nobody really gives a shit about my mullet. So. And then I just kind of like. I think as a model you can't be very self conscious because your body's kind of not your own when you're a. When you're a vessel for somebody else's imagination.

[Kate Moss]

That's so interesting.

[Bella Hadid]

Something like that.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah. God. And was that Corin with it? Was that the current day pictures you do? Yeah.

[Bella Hadid]

And I was like 15 and I was topless in a magazine and I was still at school and luckily the face wasn't really sold in Croydon, so I don't think anyone really saw it, but I was still. I don't know, I mean, they did, they heard and it was kind of like, you know, they took the piss out of my brother and all. Like, your sister's got her tits out and you Know, I think he probably suffered more than I did about it.

[Kate Moss]

It must have taken a lot of courage. I mean, everyone else had those pictures on their tear sheets, you know, as inspiration, because it was so fresh and beautiful. You looked so amazing.

[Bella Hadid]

I think at the time it was very closed. I mean, it was only me and Corinne and Mel and Drew Jarrett is their hairdresser and Dick Page is the makeup artist. And so, you know, the boys. I'd make the boy. I would make Drew turn around. Cause he was straight. And I was like, I'm not having him look at me. And, you know, I kind of was. I was really shy, but it was. It was like family. I'd worked with them so many times already that I knew them really well. But I still, like, even after that shoot, I did. I did cry a lot about taking my clothes off with her. I really didn't want to do it.

[Kate Moss]

And do you remember the first time you found a piece of clothing that made you feel different?

[Bella Hadid]

I think like, I like Vivian Westwood, like, the bustier. When I was like 15, I thought, I think, like, we'd go down the Rooster, George and Croydon. And I had like a pair of Adidas high tops I got in New York when I'd gone. And a puffer jacket, a leather, not puffer jacket, a leather goose with a mink collar, black. And we'd gone to Harlem to buy it on Easter Sunday. And it was packed. It was so mental. And I went home and they were all like, oh, my God. It was like proper fashion in Koijan. That was the look. And yeah, I was allowed in the recent George after that, even though I was 15. Ha. Because I did look on.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah. It's amazing the power of a look where it just kind of makes people accept you. I mean, it sounds prejudice, but it's not actually. It just a good look.

[Bella Hadid]

And I mean, if you wanted to get in a nightclub at 15, you had to have a look for sure. I mean, even if you're a boy at that time, you know, if you were head to toe in Westwood, you know, in a three tongue trainer and a. You know, I don't know. It was all like, fat. Very. It was more fashion then.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah.

[Bella Hadid]

Like late 80s, like the wag and the Brain and that. You know, the clubs that we used to go to and come up from Croydon on the train and. And it was like, are we going to get in? And, you know, they push us to the front, obviously, the girls, me and my friend, and, you know, we'd be all like, you know, trying to be sexy and get in. And then they were with us so then they'd get in, the boys.

[Kate Moss]

Do you remember that night we went see George Michael at the Albert hall and then we all went back to your place afterwards with Stefano Pilati and Johnny Shan Kid and Jerry Stafford and. And then you made us all dress up. You dressed everyone up from your wardrobe.

[Bella Hadid]

That is my favorite thing to do. Really. It's like, it's almost like a challenge for me. Like when I go, like, I know what I've got to look for you and like the challenge of like I could in my wardrobe, I've got something for everyone and I love doing that. It is my favorite, like creating like a look on somebody that they never thought they would do or they wouldn't have thought about. It's like, it's, it's. It brings me a lot of joy doing that because.

[Kate Moss]

When did you start doing that?

[Bella Hadid]

I mean, I think I was in my 20s when I started like getting a lot of clothes, like collecting clothes from like, you know, I bought things from India or, you know, just on travels and stuff. It's always been easier for me to buy something that I can fit in my suitcase because I lived out of a suitcase for so long. I wouldn't think twice about spending £3,000 on a dress. But when it comes to like something I can't fit in my suitcase, like a piece of furniture or a picture, I can't, I don't know, I've got like a block. So I had a lot of clothes.

[Kate Moss]

Because. Didn't you used to dress up your little brother?

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, Sylvia, he was called Sylvia. And I think basically I was. My mum wouldn't really. Didn't really like people coming over to play. I don't know why, but so I would get bored and I'd dress him up and then I'd make him like ring the doorbell and pretend he was my friend. And Sylvia, he found a picture of Sylvia and framed it saying 2 Kate Love Sylvia. I mean it's the most hilarious. He's got. I don't know where I fat, a brown wig. He looks like Elizabeth Taylor kind of gone wrong. He's got like massive tits. He was only like seven or something. It's so funny. It's really. And blue eyeshadow, obviously and a beauty spot and red lipstick. He looks like a really major drag queen, like. But as an 8 year old and.

[Kate Moss]

You dress him up?

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, I dress him up and make him ring the doorbell and say, is Kate coming Out. Can Kate come out and play? So I had, like, I made up a friend.

[Kate Moss]

And how did your mum react to that?

[Bella Hadid]

Can't remember, probably. No, she can't. I don't know. You silly bugger. I'm cooking the tea. Leave me alone. I don't know.

[Kate Moss]

And where do you start with an outfit?

[Bella Hadid]

I start with, like, where am I going and who am I seeing? Like, I kind of. I always. Because I have to. Because if you've got too many options, you have to kind of, I think, narrow it down to, like, who am a bit. Not who am I today, because it's always. But who am I with today and what kind of. I always, like, want to please someone a bit. It's almost like I want somebody. I want to wear something that when I turn up, they go, oh, I like that. I wouldn't wear, like, the same thing to see you as I would to see Katie Grant, weirdly. Or somebody like that. I don't know, like. Or Camilla. I don't know, like women or men or whoever, I think. And also, like, where am I going? Like, and who's going to be there and what. And what do I want to. And I want them to like it. I suppose.

[Kate Moss]

This is like my dream look. The things that really inspired me when I was first starting my own label. This, I like, cover up, but I like very short. And legs, I think, are so funny.

[Bella Hadid]

Because I wouldn't have thought that about you. I always. I always, you know, think you're a suit girl.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah.

[Bella Hadid]

Apart from when you wore that amazing pink Aussie clutch. Remember that?

[Kate Moss]

Yeah.

[Bella Hadid]

Oh, my. No. Was it Aussie clutch? No. You had a dress on from, like the 20s.

[Kate Moss]

Yes, I. I had one that Susie Cave sent me.

[Bella Hadid]

Oh, my God.

[Kate Moss]

And it was just like this rag and it was the prettiest thing.

[Bella Hadid]

So amazing. I think you should wear dresses more like, you know, like that time I. You had a note. You had something at your shop and I found that Aussie Clark and it had the red, green and gold stripe.

[Kate Moss]

Oh, yeah.

[Bella Hadid]

And I was like, that's so Bella.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah.

[Bella Hadid]

And you were like, where's that dress from?

[Kate Moss]

Yeah. I love it when there's so many times when you've appeared and you've done exactly that. I've become enchanted by what you've done with what you're wearing and the kind of effect it's had. You're a master at that.

[Bella Hadid]

I don't know about master or anything.

[Kate Moss]

Oh, yes.

[Bella Hadid]

No.

[Kate Moss]

Do you and Lila still do Fashion Police?

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, I did it Yesterday I was not just me and Lila, just me on my own. I was like. I was in the car and there was this woman and this man, and they were walking down the street and she had like a. I don't know, it was the weirdest look. And I went, I bet. Where are they from, those people? They're definitely not English. And he had a big camera, so I knew he was like, he was a tourist. And they were walking down Camden High Street. She had a port pie hat and a yellow Chanel backpack, tights, leather shorts, and a yellow Nike high top trainer. And it was extraordinary. And I really was like, nina, Nina, Nina, pull him over. And then I was like, where are you from from? And they were France, because we had a bet that they were Canadian. Canadian. I was like, they're definitely not from Paris for sure. I'm terrible. It is a bit. They were nice, though. I said, oh, bon jour, you know, and, you know, have a lovely day. I wasn't rude. But I do like it. I do like going like, wow, what are they thinking?

[Kate Moss]

I love the need.

[Bella Hadid]

Not, like, I don't like doing that. I don't want to be judgy. But, you know, when you just go like, nino, Nino, Like Fashion Police. There is a. There was a TV show, wasn't there, called Fashion Police, Was there? Maybe I'm making it up. Maybe I should have one. You should have one. We have one together around the streets of all the different countries especially. And then like the really good ones, like, wow, where did they come up with that?

[Kate Moss]

Yeah, but it's like, it's the code, isn't it? That's what I love about what you're describing. Sometimes I get on the tube and I see someone wearing. Just a minute. Amazing look.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

And I wonder what they're. They. Everyone's always doing something. It's like, how am I going to affect. And. And I suppose in our. In fashion, there's so much code.

[Bella Hadid]

I hate code.

[Kate Moss]

What. What bit of it don't you like? Because I see it as shortcut, like what you're describing, a shortcut. But, oh, tell me what the code.

[Bella Hadid]

Oh, I hate fashion codes.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah.

[Bella Hadid]

Like, I hate, like, oh, this bag's in fashion. So everybody designs the same bag and sells the same bag. I hate that kind of thing. Like, oh, this is fashionable. So everybody has to have that in their shop. I really don't like that. Like, I walked through the airport the other day and in every shop was the same shoe in the same bag from, like, every designer I was like, what the fuck is the point in doing that? I don't understand. Nobody's just. Nobody's like. They might put it on the Runway different, but then when it gets to the shop, it's all the same. It's like, why. It's not. It's not fun when it's fashionable or, like, you know, like the trends. That's what they call them. Isn't that trends?

[Kate Moss]

Yeah, trends are terrible.

[Bella Hadid]

Trends are awful.

[Kate Moss]

Because as soon as the.

[Bella Hadid]

It's a trend, you're wear it anymore.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah. It's out your. You're dated the minute you're trendy.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

Because it's done. Is there anyone who's inspired you, fashion wise?

[Bella Hadid]

So many people. David Bowie, Johnny Thunders, Keith. You know, men, I think, inspired me just as much as women. Like, you know, Brigitte Bardot, Grace Kelly, Anita Pallenberg.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah, Anita was.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, Anita inspired me. Well, she inspired me because of her love for fashion as well. Like, I would hang out with her and we would spend all night in my wardrobe, like, doing looks and playing and shopping, and we'd go to, like, you know, vintage places, and she would be like, that dress is a 30s Schiaparelli or something. You know, she knew so much about it as well, and she kind of. She was really. She had, like, an amazing taste.

[Kate Moss]

She put things together in such an original.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

Way. But even saying the word original way sounds awful. She was just. She just had no. There was nothing that. There was no barrier. She would just do things. And then you'd wonder why on earth.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

You'd never seen that before. Because it was just so.

[Bella Hadid]

I know the last thing she. Like, when I. I went to stay in Jamaica and she just left, and she left me a present on the bed, saying, you know, have I. You know, I'm sorry, I'm not there. I hope you have an amazing time. They were lime green lightning bolts, like this long earrings with, like, crystals all over them. I was like, wow. She would actually wear them.

[Kate Moss]

She would.

[Bella Hadid]

I mean, that takes like. She's like, fearless when it came to fashion.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah, she was fearless. And God, she was so strict as well. So when she chose something, when she'd say, I. I need to buy a jumper from you, and I think, oh, thank God. You know.

[Bella Hadid]

Oh, my God.

[Kate Moss]

It's okay. You know, I'm.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah. If Anita likes it, I'm doing all right.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah, exactly.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kate Moss]

Oh, my God. But she. I often think of her if I feel like I need a. I need a compass. I think Anita.

[Bella Hadid]

What would Anita do?

[Kate Moss]

Yes. Yeah, I know. She was just the best.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

And is there a random garment that a man wears that attracts you?

[Bella Hadid]

A random garment?

[Kate Moss]

Well, I suppose I only say that because I think if I see a man in a khaki shirt, I just down. I just think, oh, that's attractive.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, I was gonna say a shirt.

[Kate Moss]

Really?

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah. See I like weirdly kind of like old men's shirts. One of my boyfriends had this shirt that was like passed down from his grandfather and it was a dress shirt but it was like so old and like you know when it's just lived and he would wear it and I was just. Oh. So you know, because I don't know, like old things. Like my friend's grandfather died and she gave me his old like Turnbull and Assa pyjamas that he'd had. You know, like they'd been worn and worn and worn and worn and they were so beautiful. I was like, oh, you know, like that kind of old worn. Yeah, I'm not really. I don't for me like men in like trendy fashionable clothes don't do it for me at all.

[Kate Moss]

So if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

[Bella Hadid]

Well, it's funny you should say that actually because there was a boy that I really fancied and I was like, oh my God, but he wears cowboy boots. The am I going to do with that? I can't go out with somebody wears cowboy boots. And when was the. And then a long time ago when I was like 17 and you know him, obviously he was American as well. Disaster in a cowboy boot. And I was like, do you know what? I'm going to let it go. I can get rid of them. I'll just lose them. So I did and I went out with him for ages and you know, he was one of like the loves of my life. So thank God it was, you know, it didn't put me off. So there's always room for negotiation, I think.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah, that's a good way of.

[Bella Hadid]

But then I did see somebody the other day and they had a really bad shoe on and I thought nakan, I mean he's really cute. It wasn't for me, it was a friend of mine. He was a friend of mine and. But she asked me what she think and I was like, he's really cute but that shoe is kind of like a no go.

[Kate Moss]

So they have to be bigger than the offending piece of clothing or got access.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, it's awful in. It seems so shallow.

[Kate Moss]

It. It sort of sounds it in a way, but I think there's something in it because I think there are other messages. So it's like a love test. If someone like the cowboy boot, you got over it. But there. And there was a love and sometimes you override it, which is different.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

And it's a disaster.

[Bella Hadid]

Like I think, you know those kind of holiday romances. Like when you see somebody on a beach, you're like, oh my God, they're so cute. And then you see them in normal clothes that can be a passion killer. You get them back to London and you're like me? No way. It's like a kind of different person really for me if you're wearing, you know, it's like almost like city clothes and then beach clothes. And somebody on holiday is so different than somebody in. Yeah. In town.

[Kate Moss]

I suppose it changes all the proportion, doesn't it? Because they can look like on a beach completely sort of just a person. And then when they. If the clothes are wrong, you see the wrongness of it.

[Bella Hadid]

You're the same as me, aren't you? Really?

[Kate Moss]

Because I don't mind. I mean I quite like unfit looking men like seed. I don't like.

[Bella Hadid]

I don't want anyone that looks like they've been to the gym.

[Kate Moss]

No.

[Bella Hadid]

Even if they do go to the gym, they can't look like they do really. It's like natural. Yes, natural muscles.

[Kate Moss]

I know, it's a funny. I just sort of registered that recently and thought, yeah, I actually find it quite sexy when someone's a bit out of shape.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not into like. I think it was probably from like growing up around male models as well. I just really like those kind of pretty boys with perfect bodies. Just don't saying that. You never know, do you? But you know, usually it's not the kind of guy I go for. Obviously my track record is not the kind of the man I'm attracted to.

[Kate Moss]

Do you remember the old Vivienne days of Vivienne Westwood shows? Like when you first walked in her show and what it was like. I always remember seeing you in one of. I think it might have been the first one you did because I'd left by then and I came to a show in Paris and you came out in a corset, but it just finished under the boobs and I thought, oh God, that corset's on back to front.

[Bella Hadid]

And actually that's so funny.

[Kate Moss]

I don't think it was.

[Bella Hadid]

No it wasn't.

[Kate Moss]

It wasn't.

[Bella Hadid]

No.

[Kate Moss]

I looked on you, but by that.

[Bella Hadid]

Point, that's what I'm saying. I had to get over the whole like, tit thing. And then everyone just went my tits out. Even though I didn't even. Like, I had such a phobia about them. I was like. I mean, still. Well, not actually still, but, you know, like, for a long time I would do shoots and I had no top on. A long time. And. Yeah, and at Vivienne's show. And I think because they were, they were. I was kind of so flat chested that it wasn't like vulgar. They could kind of use me as like. It wasn't. If I'd have had like amazing big tits, like Helena Christensen or something, and they put her in a corset with their tits out, it kind of would have changed the vibe because I was so flat chested and I had a big mole. It was different.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah, you were just like an angenue. I mean, you just were so enchanting. You were so charming. There was so much charm in your whole demeanor and how you wore that and it was like you didn't really notice the nakedness. And Vivienne wasn't. She wasn't really into sexualizing people. She just wanted the clothes to. To be a certain way and to be radical.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

And you.

[Bella Hadid]

It's funny you should say that though, because all those clothes I think of are so sexy. Like the bustiers and the sex shoes and the. Even the punk stuff that was like, you know, radical was so sexy.

[Kate Moss]

It was.

[Bella Hadid]

And the crutch, minis and the whole thing is like. But the way she saw it, it was never sexual in that way, was it? Yeah, it was kind of like, you way.

[Kate Moss]

I know it was. It was amazing. So I remember her developing the corset and we went to the.

[Bella Hadid]

No way. Were you there?

[Kate Moss]

Yeah, I was there then and because she'd come back from Italy and. And I started working for her then. I think I was about 23 or something, or 22, and we went to the costume department of the national, the Opera House, and she said, I want to find this corset like the old ones.

[Bella Hadid]

Oh, my God.

[Kate Moss]

And then she found it and I was expecting something like, you know, that had room for breasts. But there was this thing, it was like flat. Yeah, totally flat. It was like a kind of washing board or something. And I thought, oh, no, that's awful. And I just so didn't get it. But she. Her thing, you know, she just saw beyond crazy. And then she made the corset. I remember the first one took something like 28 hours to make. And then gradually, obviously, it speeded up like mad. And what was amazing was that all the girls just became obsessed with them.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah. Even Croydon. I used to go to Cinderella, Rockefeller's, and there was like. Like, if you didn't have a fucking 50th year corset, you were not getting in. You weren't anyone. You were like. Like, it's like you just weren't. It's like a thing. You had to have one. And I'd saved up. I mean, I saved up and every. You know, it was just the. Yeah, it's like. It was such a thing of my. Of that era for me and for lots of people. I think Vivienne Westwood was such a statement of like, I don't give a fuck. I'm gonna wear this. And, you know, my parents couldn't. You know, it was like. It was a rebellious thing, I think she had, like, it was. She set out to do something like that, and obviously not with punk and everything, but, you know, as well, when she did all that with the buzz chases, it really was like rebellion.

[Kate Moss]

It was. It was amazing. Also using her love of kind of 18th century and stuff and having this decollete right up under the chin and then this flat rib cage and then this. It was just wild, wasn't it? It was so.

[Bella Hadid]

I know. And then with the rocking horse shoes all, like, laced up and with the angels painted on the bustiers and the whole, like. And the pearls and that. Oh, mate. I mean, she's major. She was amazing.

[Kate Moss]

She was so great.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah. And I loved. I mean, doing her shows and the chaos and the whole, like. You know, it was. You know, it's not. It was so punk still, wasn't it? Even though she was like. Everybody was in the front row. Like, it was so, like, mental.

[Kate Moss]

It was really, really exciting.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, it was really exciting.

[Kate Moss]

And then fashion shows were much longer then as well. It went on for ages.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, then we'd have, like, three. But, you know, some shows we'd have six looks.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah.

[Bella Hadid]

Now they have one look and they have, like, five hours of hair and makeup or like, something ridiculous. Like, the last show I did, and Lila was in it, she had to be at the show at 8 in the morning, and the show wasn't till 7 at night. God, it's like, fucking hell. What are they doing to her? Yeah, and then it was like, rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal. This. I don't know. I mean, I have no idea. I was like, my God, can you imagine? I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't get away with that. I mean, under the way, I was like. I'd turn up like half an hour before.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah. Everyone knew what to do. Even though it was complete chaos.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah. And it didn't matter. Even if I turned up three hours before, I'd still be the last one to get ready anyway, so.

[Kate Moss]

Really?

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, because I just couldn't stop talking to everyone. I was just so I could sit still. So I'd like just procrastinate about having it done. And I'd be like, oh, there's such calling. First lips. And I'd still be smoking.

[Kate Moss]

Smoking back in the day.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

Backstage. Yeah. What. What made you feel secure? Back when there were all the supers? Did you have like a big sister who super who took care of you? I mean, you the youngest of all of them. And did you have like a favorite or people?

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, Christy and Naomi kind of took me under their wing. It's, you know. Yeah, they did. And then I felt scared. But there was a long time where I didn't have friends, you know, who did as well, before I even knew Naomi and Chris. Carla Bruni, she was so nice to me. She took me for dinner once. Cause I was like, starving to death. We were in Milan. She's like, darling, you know. And I was like, I'm so hungry. You know, where I'm staying, there's no food, there's no room service. And she took me for dinner. She was really nice.

[Kate Moss]

What you don't hear about in, you know, film or you don't see in films or you don't hear about is all the loyalties in the fashion world. And I know there's loads of terrible stuff, but there are. Is a lot of good stuff. And there's a lot of friendships. And, yeah, people do look out for each other.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, when I. There was, you know, when I had a bit of a. What do you call it? Scandal. I had so much support from people in the fashion business, you know, that they were like this. And, you know, as soon as kind of I was able to go back to work, I. I got booked by everybody in like, kind of like a. No, we're not going to let them cancel you kind of thing. Yeah, it was amazing.

[Kate Moss]

So good, because, I mean, I know fashion's corporate and everything, but there's still. The individuals within it are so.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

Conscientious. You know, people really stick up for each other and they just don't take.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

And they don't conform nearly as much as other.

[Bella Hadid]

I mean, I've got most. I've been in. You know, most of my oldest friends are in the fashion business. I mean, the. Most of my friends I've met through fashion, so, you know, it's. You know, it's not. They're not just fashion people. They're like my oldest friends.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah.

[Bella Hadid]

I mean, my. I've known Jess Hallett for 37 years. It's like mental.

[Kate Moss]

So amazing. She was a booker. Did. Did she work at Storm?

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, she worked at Storm. She was my booker and then she was my pa and then she was my maid of honor. And she might. God, you know, my daughter's godmother. And, you know, she's family. Yeah. She comes every Christmas. So it's not really through fashion. You make really good friends.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah. I think because people work so hard as well, when you work together in.

[Bella Hadid]

That way they understand what you have to do. Like, if you told, like, normal people, like, you know, my mum still doesn't understand, like, when I say I've really worked, I've been working so hard, she's like, yeah, right. What do you do? Stand in front of a camera. That's what I think that she means when she says she don't work. Like, mmm, you don't really know what I have to do.

[Kate Moss]

I know. I think people perceive models, I think maybe less so now. There seems to be finally a real appreciation of what a model can bring to the story. How a model lights everything up, gives the. Because clothes are nothing without people, of course. And that's why, you know, when you did go through that horrible time, everyone just wanted to show you. We wanted you there, you know, we wanted to be by your side and you showing how great you can make everything look.

[Bella Hadid]

I think it's quite funny, like, sometimes, even yesterday I was working, they were like, God, you really know how. You know, you're so good. And I was like, people are still quite surprised when they see me working. I think they, like, they don't get, like. Some people just don't get it. They're like, really? How is she still working? And then I go on set and they're like, oh, God, do you. I mean, yeah, for sure. I mean, I go. I do get. I still get surprised some, you know, that I get like, oh, my God, I'm still working. It's mental. I do get surprised because I did not think that I would be working at 50, that's for sure. I was like, 19. I got my. Whenever it was 18, I got my first vocal offer and I was like, okay, okay, I'm out. I'm fine with that. That's fine. I did. I did it. I'm done. Even if I never work again, I did Vogue. You know what I mean?

[Kate Moss]

Yeah. How many Vogue covers have you done now?

[Bella Hadid]

I don't know. A lot, I think. I'm like, I've had the most British Vogue covers.

[Kate Moss]

Do you ever do Runway for a boyfriend to remind him of how good you are?

[Bella Hadid]

That's so funny. Imagine like, this is what I used to be. Like, this is how I can move. No, I never do Runway, but I do strip. I do as. I do quite like stripping as my. I think it was. I think it was. I was a stripper in a former life, actually.

[Kate Moss]

And being naked. Do you. How do you feel about being naked? Do you wear something to be naked or are you good at being totally naked?

[Bella Hadid]

I need a heel. Or if I'm totally naked, I mean, I can do. I mean, I don't on my own, but with a man, definitely. I like to have a heel. Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

So interesting that. Because I don't want to. I can never be totally naked, but really. No, I like to have something on and then I'm naked. But being interesting, being naked, it's like. I suppose, like when I was sitting for my dad, I'd have no clothes on.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

And that was. There was. That was for a purpose.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah. In the picture, I can be like. Well, yeah. When I say, for your dad, I was totally naked and. Yeah, it was a different. Exactly. It was a purpose, but in my own life, I could. I can. With a shoe. But you wear something, like what. What would you wear? Am I not supposed to ask you questions?

[Kate Moss]

You can ask me. I'd probably.

[Bella Hadid]

Is anyone going to do you? No.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah, I wear. I probably wear a bra. I don't know why. I mean, I've got hardly any tits, but I like that. I somehow feel like I've got some control. There's something still left to take off.

[Bella Hadid]

Oh, God. Now I'm going to take that on.

[Kate Moss]

The shoe is still very good.

[Bella Hadid]

Something still a mystery. I don't think there's anything mystery with my boy by now.

[Kate Moss]

I might try the shoe, though.

[Bella Hadid]

I put the shoe on quite good.

[Kate Moss]

And are there certain clothes that make you feel better when you're feeling low?

[Bella Hadid]

No, I think if I'm feeling low, I'm feeling low. Like, if I Oh, I actually, if I'm like, you know, if I'm feeling low, usually I don't want to go out. So if I like have a bath and put like a nice, like a nice nighty, like something like that always makes me feel better. Like going to bed in like something pretty and like. Oh, even if I'm in bed and I'm not going out, then I still feel better. Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

And what's the best present that a lover has ever given you? Must be quite daunting to buy you.

[Bella Hadid]

Something because you've what, like clothes wise?

[Kate Moss]

Yeah.

[Bella Hadid]

Oh, my ex husband bought me a pair of shoes. He's the only person to have ever bought me a pair of shoes. Not. He's the only lover to bought me a pair. And they were Christian Louboutin and they were like cerise. Not cerise pink. They were satin and they were like a purpley pink. They were gorgeous. I was like. When I opened that box I was like, that was inspired because I loved them. And I was like, that is the sexiest gift I've ever got.

[Kate Moss]

That's really.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, they were amazing.

[Kate Moss]

Classic.

[Bella Hadid]

They are amazing. I still got them.

[Kate Moss]

Are they the ones he called after you the so Kate shoes?

[Bella Hadid]

No, it was before the so Kate. It was like it's a stiletto. But it wasn't a so Kate.

[Kate Moss]

Yeah.

[Bella Hadid]

I can't walk. I can't walk in the so Kate anymore. I tried to walk in so Kate is so high. It's ridiculous. I don't know how I ran around in those for years, but I did so high. I think after the pandemic I just couldn't do it anymore. Two years of not running around in a socate and I was out of practice. He's making them short. He's made them smaller.

[Kate Moss]

He's done a lower version.

[Bella Hadid]

A lower version? Yeah, because granny can't wear them anymore.

[Kate Moss]

So something about stilettos that are harder to wear as you get older. But I still wear platforms and I love a built up shoe.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

I love to have elevation.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

That makes me feel I can do anything. Anything.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

If I'm feeling low.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah.

[Kate Moss]

And I get the shoes on.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, exactly. Then you're ready to go. You can like take on the world. Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Moss]

And do you have a fashion kink?

[Bella Hadid]

What's that mean?

[Kate Moss]

Well, I'm not totally sure, but it ha. It's sort of an off thing that you go to as a sort of. As a sort of guide to feeling. I. I've got it for tonight.

[Bella Hadid]

No black I mean, I don't know if in doubt. Black cocktail dress. I don't know. What's a kink? A kink? Or, like, is a kink something that you wouldn't expect?

[Kate Moss]

No, I think it's a sort of aberration from your normal self. Like, I mean, it's not like you do think you have your. Your very original full stop anyway, but it's like. And you're. You're so familiar with fashion and is there a. Like a place where you go against fashion, but it's part of your sort of way that you know you've got it right?

[Bella Hadid]

No, I think. No, I mean, fashion for me, like, there's always something in my mind that's like. That's leading. Like, is it. It's like a weird instinct that I feel. And when I'm not feeling that, it's a disaster, like, to get dressed if I haven't got, like, some kind of excitement or something. If I'm nervous and I don't want to go, or if it's like I just can't get dressed. I just. Literally anything I put on just doesn't work. And I just don't want to go. And I, like, cry. I have cried before. Like, I haven't got anything and pulled everything out of the closet. Like, once or twice in my life. I remember, like, just having complete fashion crisis and being, like, in a heap on the floor with loads of clothes around me and shoes and like, nothing is gonna make me feel like I want to leave the house. Terrible in it. But you know what? I think a lot of girls have it. And I don't know about men, but I know, like, I know I don't know about a lot of girls, but I know they do. They. Do they?

[Kate Moss]

I think everyone has it.

[Bella Hadid]

Like, nothing fits. Nothing looks good, Nothing, you know, I think it's just an internal thing.

[Kate Moss]

It's like a superstition almost, isn't it? You get dressed and you think, oh, no, this hasn't worked. I don't know what to do. Did I ever know what to do? You know? And suddenly.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, exactly. And something. I think it is like a super or something. Like, for me, something just doesn't feel right. Like suddenly, like, the trousers aren't fitting like they were, or it doesn't like, hit the ankle. Like something. Like, it just feels weird in my skin. It just is like wearing a weird. Like, just. It's what I like putting on a different skin. And the skin does not feel like your own or something.

[Kate Moss]

No, I Suppose it goes back to that thing of when you can feel a total, totally unconfident and you can get the clothes to do the job for you. You can follow behind it, and then it works for you. And then your confidence comes and you know that you have in your wardrobe these resources. I remember writing a poem. I tried to write this poem once.

[Bella Hadid]

And I tried to write.

[Kate Moss]

Well, I started, and I was sitting for my dad, and then he wrote the whole thing, and it. It was called Dress Sense. And it ended, in your wardrobe, hang your brains.

[Bella Hadid]

Oh, my God. Of course he fucking did. Clever bastard. That's so annoying. Oh, my God. In your wardrobe, hang your brains. Because he always had. I remember, like. Anyway, you know, like, he had that same look all the time, which was so major. Like that Kashmir, you know, that coat, the herringbone. What was it? That. Yeah, you know, that herringbone coat. And it was so. It looked like, you know, he's had it forever. I don't know. But it was so luxurious, wasn't it? It was like something like the wool or something.

[Kate Moss]

It was like as though an animal had its coat on. It was just so soft.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah, it was so soft.

[Kate Moss]

And it put him together. I mean.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah. I mean, he could have been wearing, like, literally, his pajama. And you put that on and you're just like the chicest man in the room. Yeah, that's what I like to see. I do like that kind of dressing. Yeah. For a man, it's the best.

[Kate Moss]

A suit. Someone who knows.

[Bella Hadid]

Yeah. Exactly.

[Kate Moss]

How to wear a suit.

[Bella Hadid]

Is we done?

[Kate Moss]

Yes. Thank you so much, Kate, for being on the show.

[Bella Hadid]

Thank you. I can't wait for my evaluation.

[Kate Moss]

Well, it was so lovely to have you here and to hear your amazing thoughts and feelings. Thank you.

[Bella Hadid]

Thank you.

[Kate Moss]

You're.

[Bella Hadid]

It.