Fashion Neurosis with Richard Russell

Summary

Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud

Guest: Richard Russell (Owner, XL Recordings)

Episode Air Date: November 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this intimate and wide-ranging conversation, Bella Freud welcomes Richard Russell, acclaimed music producer and head of XL Recordings, to her "couch" to explore the deep interplay between fashion, music, and identity. Their discussion begins with clothes and personal style, but soon expands into powerful reflections on ambition, mental health, mentorship, masculinity, creative process, and healing—making fashion the lens through which they examine life’s most formative experiences.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Fashion as Identity and Connection

• Personal Uniform (01:49)
  • Russell wears Maharishi almost exclusively—designed by his partner Esther’s brother, Hardy Blechman. He values the practicality, comfort, and the personal connection to the designer.
    • “He’s a brilliant designer and very close friend… It’s been like developing a brother. I never had a brother, but he’s my brother-in-law.” (02:25)
• Style Habits (03:13)
  • Everything, down to his tabby socks and even wearing sandals with socks, is Maharishi—“sounds terrible, but socks with sandals… is fairly standard for me.” (03:34)
• Clothes in Childhood—Aspirational Longing (11:29)
  • Russell’s first fashion cravings sparked from hip-hop and casuals culture—a longing for certain trainers, branded wristbands (even if only affordable options), and a “wedge” haircut.
    • “I managed to get a Feela wristband... it was like desperation.” (13:31)

Music & Religion: Parallel Escapes

• Spiritual Place of Music (04:39, 06:17)
  • Growing up in an orthodox religious environment, he found music replaced religion as a source of transcendence, refuge, and meaning.
    • “Music occupies this place where it is beyond what I can touch and see. It’s always been the place of escape and transcendence for me.” (04:39)
  • He discusses Houston Smith’s "The World’s Religions" and how music/religion histories both exclude the mediocre in favor of what transcends.
    • “He explains the history of religion in those terms… only the transcendent survives.” (09:19)

Obsession, Outsiderness, and Community

• Childhood Obsession (10:03)
  • Russell describes a prodigious, sometimes isolating, focus on music, but later found kinship with “equally obsessive” peers as he entered the music world.
    • "It's probably diagnosable now, but everything is…" (10:03)
• Style Aspirations (11:29–15:19)
  • Style and records were motivators for early work ethic; his tastes shaped by music scenes (hip hop, casuals, Italian sportswear, 80s pop).

Fashion, Attraction & First Impressions

• Clothing in Romance (18:41)
  • Russell admits clothes can make or break attraction—“it would be hard to fancy someone… if you didn’t like what they were wearing… It’s that energy in the first feeling you get.” (18:48)

Rejection of Institutions & Early Ambition

• Rebellion Against Institutions (20:26)
  • Conviction came from a combination of religious upbringing, school boredom, and early traction as a DJ. Even so, he admits bravado sometimes masked vulnerability.
    • “If someone tells you you’re lazy or difficult… you go with that.” (20:40)
    • “I still have nightmares about failing my exams…” (21:17)

Masculinity, Emotional Openness, and Change

• Evolving Male Emotionality (25:16–26:12)
  • Russell reflects on the emotional reserve expected of his generation and the relief of seeing his sons’ greater openness.
    • “Their… willingness to accept their own vulnerability really just makes me so incredibly happy.” (26:12)
  • Freud adds: “I didn’t [have that possibility] either as a young woman. Just to do with the era.” (26:42)

Objects, Accessories, and Comfort

• Handbags, Pouches, and Rings (29:00)
  • Russell carries a Maharishi pouch—“it was a game changer for me… It is identical to a handbag, but in a way I can get away with.” (29:20)

Self-Doubt, Growth, and the Creative Journey

• Facing Angst & Self-Doubt (30:24)
  • He now meets self-doubt head-on, seeing discomfort as a sign to pursue ideas, and avoids the stasis of the comfort zone.
    • “Rather than pretending things don’t make me angsty, I just accept it and do it anyway… if it’s making me uncomfortable, that means I might be onto something.” (30:24)
• Rejecting “One Lane” (32:00–34:27)
  • Argues against pigeonholing—believes all artists should freely move between forms.
    • “It’s your human right… to express yourself in any way you want.” (32:13)

Crisis, Therapy & Transformation

• Turning Point: Mental Health & Breakdown (37:15–41:19)
  • After a breakdown in his late 20s (signaled by weight gain and all-black designer clothes), an intervention from friends led him to a life-changing psychiatrist.
    • “I was having a breakdown… and my friend said, ‘I’m not qualified to help you, you need to seek some proper help.’” (37:15)
  • Therapy led to major life changes: ended a relationship, sought greater self-understanding, and improved his mental and physical health.
• The Role of Work in Healing (41:19–42:44)
  • Work had both exacerbated and helped his condition. Learning to work “in a more open and less driven way” made him both happier and incidentally more successful.
    • “Just as work had been part of the problem, work became part of the solution.” (41:48)

Ego, Fear, and the Creative Process

• Approaching Fear (45:22–46:08)
  • Fear is best faced, acknowledged, and "respected"—but never obeyed.
    • “When you put [fear] on paper, you see it for what it is. It’s not real… not to be listened to, it's to be accepted, faced, respected—but then you are meant to do the opposite.” (45:38)
  • “Dreams lie in things we’re a bit scared of. So you’ve got to… see the fear as a signpost.” (46:08)

Mentorship and Making Space for Others

• On Influences & Passing It On (49:18–51:43)
  • Russell speaks movingly of mentors—Martin Mills (Beggars Banquet), a transformative psychiatrist, yoga teacher, and Liam Howlett (Prodigy)—and the duty, as he’s aged, to turn around and help others.
    • “I’ve been helped so much by people, and… my capacity for that has grown exponentially.” (57:42)

Combining Artistry and Business

• Dualities in the Music Industry (59:09–60:46)
  • Russell advocates for artists to understand business and vice versa; artists “have to be across everything,” even with help.
    • “If you’re an artist, whether you like it or not, you’re a business person. You haven’t got a boss…” (59:30)

Recognizing Talent and Being a Fan

• On Adele and Being a Genuine Fan (63:24–64:39)
  • He recalls discovering Adele, emphasizing that the industry must never lose the simple truth: “No music fan is ever wrong about the things they love.” (63:49)
    • “If you grew up loving Luther Vandross, Public Enemy and Madonna—the connection is you.” (64:39)

Serious Illness and Recovery

• Guillain–Barré Syndrome Experience (67:42–74:03)
  • A neurological illness at age 42 left him paralyzed and in hospital—a pivotal, “quiet” period in which he had to “enlist [his] ambition and drive” for physical recovery.
    • “It’s like seeing very, very old age… and then I had a great recovery. So I felt like I got to see youth again.” (70:42)
    • “I found a joy in walking up Portobello Road to get a coffee… it’s joyous because I had it taken away.” (70:59)

Art as Alchemy and Freedom

• Healing Power of Creation (77:26–79:10)
  • Music-making—especially when feeling low—is a powerful tool for healing.
    • “When I’m down, I tell people: that’s when you need to get on the laptop and make music… that’s when it will be good.” (77:26)
  • Any creative act is “productive,” and productivity is vital to well-being: “If you do something productive, you feel better… The minute you write something down, put some colors on paper or make some music, you feel different.” (79:10)
  • His studio is both a creative space and a place of “healing energy.”
    • “My studio is just a very beautiful environment… I walk through the door every day and feel lucky to be there.” (81:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Music and Religion:

  “Music occupies this place where it is beyond what I can touch and see. It’s always been the place of escape and refuge...”
  —Richard Russell (04:39)

• On Facing Fear:

  “When you put it on paper, you see [fear] for what it is. It’s not real… not to be listened to, it’s to be accepted, faced, respected…”
  —Richard Russell (45:38)

• On Being a Fan:

  “No music fan is ever wrong about the things they love. [If] you grew up loving Luther Vandross, Public Enemy and Madonna—the connection is you.”
  —Richard Russell (63:49/64:39)

• On Openness and Vulnerability:

  “Their level of emotional maturity, openness, willingness to accept their own vulnerability really just makes me so incredibly happy to see that.”
  —Richard Russell (26:12)

• On the Value of Creating During Pain:

  “When I’m down, I tell people: that’s when you need to get on the laptop and make music… that’s when it will be good.”
  —Richard Russell (77:26)

• On the Healing Power of Music:

  “If you do something productive, you feel better… the minute you write something down, put some colors on a bit of paper or make some music, you feel different.”
  —Richard Russell (79:10)

• Studio as Sanctuary:

  “My studio is just a very beautiful environment… I walk through the door every day and, like, feel lucky to be there, which is a good thing.”
  —Richard Russell (81:54)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:49 — Russell discusses his daily Maharishi wardrobe and connection to the designer.
• 04:39 — Music as religious transcendence; “quasi-religious” relationship with music.
• 11:29 — Childhood obsessions with fashion and music; motivation to work.
• 13:30 — Yearning for branded goods as a child; “Feela wristband.”
• 18:48 — Can clothing kill an attraction?
• 20:26 — Rejection of institutions and schooling.
• 25:16 — Changing landscape for young men’s emotional expression.
• 29:20 — Handbag equivalents and personal accessories (“game-changer” pouch).
• 30:24 — Russell’s approach to self-doubt and embracing discomfort.
• 37:15 — Mental health crisis, breakdown, and life-changing psychiatry.
• 45:22 — Facing and processing fear as part of growth.
• 59:09 — On the interconnectedness of artistry and business.
• 63:49 — Discovering talent (Adele), being a genuine music fan.
• 67:42 — Guillain–Barré syndrome: illness, recovery, and finding joy in small acts.
• 77:26 — Creative practice as a remedy for despair.
• 81:54 — Building a personal sanctuary in his studio.

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Tone and Atmosphere

The episode is relaxed, honest, and welcoming—characteristic of Bella Freud’s gentle probing and empathetic manner, met by Russell’s articulate self-awareness and warmth. Their conversation is peppered with laughter, shared recognitions, and moments of deep candor, giving listeners an unusually soulful look at the links between external style, art, ambition, and the internal journeys we all navigate.

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For Listeners

This episode offers far more than a discussion of fashion. It’s a revealing look at how style, music, adversity, and creativity converge to shape who we become. Russell’s story is at once highly specific and universally resonant—an inspiring narrative of learning, growing, and turning pain into art and connection.

Transcript

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[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Richard Russell.

[Richard Russell]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

[Richard Russell]

I am wearing clothes by Maharishi, which is mainly what I wear and it's clothing made by a British designer called Hardy Blackman, who happens to be my partner, Esther's brother. But I was wearing his clothes before I met her and I find what he makes most comfortable and practical for doing everything in and I like how it looks.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

I didn't know he was Esther's brother. He's a brilliant designer. I love his stuff.

[Richard Russell]

He's. He's a brilliant designer and very close friend. It's been like developing a brother. I've never had. I never had a brother because he's my brother in law and we work together on a lot of different projects. He does a lot of artwork for music I make and he's an excellent designer. But he's also one of these Taurus warrior types who I always like working with because he's sort of. He's very bold and kind of does what he wants and I always like being around people like that.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

You managed to get on the couch without your shoes and so can you tell me about your socks?

[Richard Russell]

Same as the rest of the clothes are from Maharishi.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Oh, really?

[Richard Russell]

Yeah. They make Very good socks with. When they tend to have logos on the instep and often they. The socks are. Now, what is the word for those socks? But they're ones where the toe, the big toe is separated from like.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Like a tabby.

[Richard Russell]

Tabby, that's it. So a lot of the socks are tabby socks. So I often. I often wear sandals. So the socket and I wear. I do ten to. Sounds terrible, but socks with sandals and these type of clothes is fairly standard for me. Or sneakers. And I kind of wear the same sneakers I've been wearing since I was a teenager.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah, I'm partial to a sock and a sandal myself. I love that. And you're the owner of Excel Recordings, an independent record label that's released music by some of the world's greatest artists, including Gil Scott Heron, Tyler the Creator, Dizzy Rascal, the White Stripes, FKA Twigs and the Prodigy, among others, and maybe most famously Adele. And do you think coming from an orthodox religious background has made you more focused on noticing what's different and what's appealing?

[Richard Russell]

We are on the couch, literally. Oh, that's a very interesting question. I mean, I think the. My background is a very, very mixed bag of stuff that I got from that. A lot of which I rejected, but I suppose some of which in later life I've seen the value of. I've definitely seen the value of just having parents as you get into the big wide world and you realize not everyone has that luxury. I don't know if like my sort of. My relationship with music is possibly quasi religious and maybe. Maybe music occupies the place in my life that religion occupied in my parents lives. I think it probably does. But I've been fortunate enough to earn a living out of that as well. Which I suppose you would get to do if you were a priest or an imam or a rabbi or something. So. Yeah, you know, music occupies this place where it is beyond what I can touch and see. And it's a place of. It's always been the place of escape and refuge and transcendence for me, as I think it is for anyone who is a fan of music.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And it's a thing of such tremendous value to a person because it enables you to. To escape things. But I imagine that's what religion has always done for people as well.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

That's such an interesting comparison. I would not have thought of it like that except for I've definitely used music like that. Periods of extreme feeling, you know, sort of terribly anxious all the time. And I've known that if I put certain music on. I'll sort of jog myself out into something else at least. Which reminds me, it's possible to not be stuck in that kind of thing.

[Richard Russell]

Well, for young people in the sort of modern, you know, I mean, since teenagers existed, which, as I understand it was the 50s, I think there's been a lot of possibility for music to occupy this very fundamental place in your life. And that, yeah, that might have left less room or less need for religion for people. I've always seen music and religion in very parallel ways. And I think I've become. I've become more interested in religion as I've got older. I've become very interested in religion as I've got older. Not in any. Not in any one religion. I discovered a book by a writer called Houston Smith. Have you ever read him?

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

No.

[Richard Russell]

He was amazing. He was like the sort of inventor of the idea of comparative religion. And he wrote a book which was originally called the Religions of Man until one of his female students said to him, that sounds a bit like Religion's only for men. And he said, I hadn't thought of that. So when he reprinted the book, he changed the name of it to the World's Religions.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Right.

[Richard Russell]

And it really sort of cracked me open because it. It just. I think it's a book that helped me understand the world and helped me understand people and helped me understand history through the lens of these different religious practices and the thread of something that runs through them. And in the foreword to the most recent edition of He's Not With Us Anymore, but in the forward to the most recent edition of the World's Religions, he says, I've had a lot of criticism for not writing about some of the terrible things associated with religion. Not talking about any type of, you know, fundamentalism or Christian fundamentalism, far right, you know, all of these different things, the erosion of personal freedom, all these different things. And he said, people have said to me, why don't you write about things? And he said, if you read the history of music, despite the fact that most music made is not that great, they don't write about that.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

That's such a good feeling that doesn't.

[Richard Russell]

Warrant a place in the history of music, all the mediocre stuff. And he. He explains the history of religion in those terms. So it's very. It's very, very powerful. And I suppose the canon of music is something I've spent my life kind of learning about popular music anyway, and to get that dispersed glimpse of, like the canon of religious writing and Religious thought and ideas from him was massively powerful for me, and it's led to a lot of other reading because you.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Had such a focus from a young age. And do you think you were more obsessive than any of your friends?

[Richard Russell]

Oh, yes, I didn't. I think in that regard I was something. I felt like an outsider. I definitely felt like a. Something of an outsider in my family. I mean, I had great friends growing up who are still great friends, but that obsessive part of me was. I mean, it's probably diagnosable now, but everything is. I'm not going to do that now, but I can see that there's. I can see that there's a strength in that and it might have been helpful with some of the things that were. Because, you know, from this obsessive nature, you know, it's enabled me to connect deeper to the thing I love, but it's also. It's also created problems in my life as well. So I think overall. Overall, I'm pleased. I don't know exactly what it is, but I can. I can definitely see why people. People would rather establish it. But I think when I entered the world of music more fully, which was when I was quite young, I started to find that I was around other people who were equally obsessive as me and sort of equally strange or something. So that was very comforting.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

And was there anything that you were obsessed with wearing as a child or that you longed to wear?

[Richard Russell]

Yeah, clothes are very important to me and very connected. Connected to music. And I think most of my ideas about clothes were coming from that, for music. But then also, I think that. I think some of my drive and ambition was connected to just wanted. Well, I wanted records and I wanted clothes, and those things were. You had to have money to get them. So, you know, a money that didn't seem attainable. I mean, any money. There was, you know, disposable money to spend on records and clothes. You had to work to get that. So I think that was probably quite a helpful thing for me in developing a work ethic when I was quite young. But, you know, I. I was a. I've been a lifelong hip hop obsessive and I love hip hop from when I first heard it, which was Grandmaster Flash doing the Message on the Tube and Malcolm McLaren doing Buffalo Girls on Top of the Pops, which was actually within a week of each other, really, it turns out. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Gosh.

[Richard Russell]

So I think the playgrounds of the UK were pretty alive that following week with people trying to break dance and so, yeah, then this world of not just music but fashion kind of opened up from that. A lot of that was about sportswear and labels. And at the same time there was the casuals sort of thing happening as well, which was related to football and was European and was coming from Italy and Liverpool. And they were an interesting parallel. They were parallel worlds who had a similar idea, I think of some slightly aspirational way of dressing and label, identifying with labels. So I was very. I was very into that and. But of course it was more of an idea and a notion. Like I managed to get a Feeler wristband.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

God.

[Richard Russell]

Because I think that was an entry level priced item and I sort of. I wore it the whole time and it used to got quite dirty and my friends used to make a fun. But it had a Feeler logo on it. And I think about how that's like desperation. And then I managed to save up and get Diodora trainers. But they weren't the Diodora gold trainers, which were the ones you really wanted. But I remember they. The Diodora gold trainers were. I mean, they were called that because they had the gold Theodora logo down the side. And they were completely outrageously priced and completely unaffordable. And that price was 40 pounds, which obviously is not that much for sneakers now. Yeah, I just got. I just got very. I got interested in sportswear and labels and ways of dressing and having a wedge haircut, which I now think kind of came from Bowie and came from that Low album cover.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

Because that's a sort of ultimate way wedge he's got there. Yeah, I think the wedge was a big football casual haircut. You saw Paul Weller with a wedge and at one stage George Michael sort of had a wedge, although it was a bit curlier. So, yeah, there was that kind of 80s pop. I never really attempted new romantic dressing.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

It was kind of embarrassing, wasn't it?

[Richard Russell]

I think I was a little bit too young and it was just a bit. It was maybe just a bit beyond me, but I think something which was a little bit more kind of hip hop, casual street wear. So as that I started to become aware of that. That felt very me. I haven't got that far beyond it.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Really, but so specific and so kind of, you know, that somehow those clothes matter as much as the. The music. It's so interesting to hear a man talk about clothes in that way. I mean, most men do, actually, given a little bit of questioning, but how exhilarating it is to be able to aspire. You know, to crave and long for these things and then get one of them.

[Richard Russell]

And I think I enjoy clothes more and more. I think it's of more, more interest to me as I get older, not less. Yeah, I mean, having resources to be able to get the stuff you want still kind of still really sort of tickles me. Like, I feel really, like really fortunate to be able to do that. That's never really left me, I think, because the period of time before I could afford to have the clothes I want was at a very impressionable time in my life. So that sort of stayed with me. And I don't have like, I'm not into like cars or anything like that, so I don't have like, I don't have enormously expensive tastes. But clothes are like a sort of abiding interest to me. And discovering, you know, Maharishi is a so wonderful thing I like. Heidi's always designing new items of clothing that I like. But I'll sometimes come across another designer or label. Like I have this relationship with him which, you know, my relationship with Esther is monogamous, but my relationship with Hardy is a little more open. So I feel entirely free to explore other, other labels. And so every now and then I come across, you know, I've come across a couple recently and I think, oh, I really like these clothes. And you sort of investigate it. But I suppose like discovering a musician you like, right. You sort of start discovering the different things and it can be quite exhilarating.

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[Richard Russell]

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[Richard Russell]

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[Pitch Podcast Narrator]

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[Richard Russell]

With that intro, let's go.

[Pitch Podcast Narrator]

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[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

And if you fancy someone but you don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

[Richard Russell]

I mean, I think it would be hard to fancy someone to know whether you did or you didn't if you didn't like what they were wearing. So I suppose the answer to that is yes, but it's. I think so much of your initial that. That energy, you know, and connection with people has to do with that kind of first feeling you get. And I suppose so much, you know, a lot of that is vision. I mean, it's to do with a lot of things, isn't it?

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

I mean, with everything, with friendships, with working relationships, you know, an initial energy that you get with someone. I'm trying to think if I've ever been like, thrown by someone's clothing but then discovered a great connection to them. Not really, because maybe I think the connection is sort of. Tends to be. Well, it's an interesting thing, isn't it? It's very mysterious when you feel that connection to someone and how things work between you.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

When you have, you know, you meet someone, you've got that connection with them and you can talk endlessly about stuff and then you'll meet someone else and there's nothing to talk about.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

I do think everyone is interesting, but you definitely can meet someone from time to time and there isn't. But I think music is a great help with this because I don't think I've ever met anyone who is deeply interested in music where we didn't have a huge amount to talk about.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

Immediately music's very, very good as a sort of bonding subject.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

And you describe your education as rejecting any institution you could, which is quite a commitment. And I wondered where that conviction came from.

[Richard Russell]

Well, I think it came from having a lot of religion imposed on me and schooling that I didn't really like and didn't really. I couldn't really. I was bright, but there were a lot of subjects I couldn't do. Now, again, this would probably suggest something to do with something that might have been diagnosable, but it was. It was definitely interpreted by people who taught me as just being lazy or difficult. And I think I just sort of went with that, you know, I think if someone tells you you're lazy or difficult, that's. You go with that.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

So I. That was. I was fine with that. I was like, I'm going to be lazy and difficult. I'm going to fail my Exams. Yeah, I did. And I also gave the impression of not caring about that and being, I was deejaying. And I was deeply into that from when I was 15, 16 years old. People would pay me to do it. I was good at it. I did that 10,000 hours thing of, you know, becoming a good technical DJ. I used to play guitar before that, but with nothing like the level of commitment that I had to DJing. And so I was very easily able to convince myself and everyone around me that I didn't care about school. However, I still have nightmares about failing my exams really. So I'm being in that room and it's, it's, and it's like still horrifying. So I danced. A good friend of mine recently who I'm seeing this evening, actually one of my oldest friends, I said when I failed my A levels, he said, yeah. I said, how was I about that? And he said, you didn't give a fuck about it. And I said, are you sure I wasn't just sort of putting that on? And he said, well, I mean, you could have been, you could have been kidding yourself and kidding me, I suppose. Yeah. So I think that's what I was doing. Because who wants to fail, you know, who wants to do badly at something to have to deal with it and deal with the ups? Because I was bright and have to deal with the sort of upset you've caused. And so, but you know, it also meant I had no safety net and you know, nowhere to go except music. And I also moved out of home when I was young in a way where I was like, I'm not going back there.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And I mean I had, I mean I was very fortunate with my upbringing really. I had loving parents, I grew up somewhere that was okay, but I was just done with it when I was quite young. Yeah. I mean, in a way that now, now feels a little bit sort of of petulant really because nothing that bad had happened to me but, but I was done with it and I just was wanted to, I wanted to be in another world, a world of music. And I was like from when I was kind of 17 and I was in New York when I was 18. Yeah, I, I, I, I feel like now I realized there was a lot of bravado there. And as like you would, you wouldn't really talk about your emotions at this time. And I think that was probably more true of men then I think, you know, there's always been a greater communication about emotional things and you know, your body as a women have communicated about. You might have some communication with your mum or your friends. I was never communicating about anything really with, with other men until I was a bit older.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

So I don't, you know, I don't think I was like processing much, which definitely stored up some issues for later on. But I was like doing stuff and moving quick and very DJing very quickly. Starting to make records and do the lab, you know, be a producer, be a dj, dj, do the label stuff. That was all happening very quickly and I was very, very young and. Yeah, and it was exciting. A lot, a lot, a lot got done. So it was productive.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

I think if you as a young person, you know, a teenager, if you don't have someone showing you emotion, that being emotional is part of a means to an end as well. And particularly for, for young men, I think it's much harder to know what's in it for you to be like that. And it's.

[Richard Russell]

Yeah. I mean, I think as a young man I felt the need to act a bit tough.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And to be a bit tough and to have this kind of, you know, this sort of suit on and to not appear vulnerable for kind of self preservation. And I see younger men being much more open really now. Yes, definitely, definitely. And it's really wonderful to see it. I mean, you know, I have two sons and their level of emotional maturity, openness, willingness to like accept their own vulnerability really just makes me so incredibly happy to see that.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

That they're able to do that. It's definitely, you know, things like things get worse in the world and they get better as well. And this is one of the things that is definitely an improvement, that there is space for people to including young men to discuss their emotions and be open about it. And I do think you're potentially avoiding an awful lot of mental health problems if you can be open.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

About what you're feeling. And I, I definitely did not feel I had that possibility as a young man.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

I didn't either as a young woman.

[Richard Russell]

Right, right.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Definitely.

[Richard Russell]

Just what just to do with the era, to do with the time.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah. And also to do with the lack of anyone else doing it. It was not a, not something that people did.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi everyone, this is Kara Swisher. This week on my podcast on with Kara Swisher, I talked to Jennifer Welch. She's the co host of I've had it, which is a radically progressive podcast that comes from the unlikeliest of sources, two middle aged white blonde ladies from Oklahoma. Over the past year their podcast has blown up in large part because of Jennifer's sharp, raunchy and incredibly funny political commentary. We talk about growing up an atheist in the Bible Belt, why establishment Democrats are doing everything wrong, and how to deal with Trump's unhinged attacks. Have a listen Moses Mike Grindr Johnson. He was originally Moses Mike because there's this video of him talking about becoming speaker of the House where he says God woke him up in the middle of the night, said, hey buddy, wake up, right? You're gonna be Moses. And I'm like, we're acting like this is normal.

[Richard Russell]

This is crazy that he thinks he.

[Kara Swisher]

Heard the voice of God and that God told him he was Moses. The full episode is out now, so you can find it anywhere you get your podcast. Make sure to subscribe to on with Kara Swisher for more.

[Today Explained Narrator]

Hollywood is struggling and I want to give Sydney Sweeney an opportunity to talk about that specifically.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

I think that when I.

[Richard Russell]

I have.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

An issue that I want to speak.

[Richard Russell]

About, people will hear.

[Today Explained Narrator]

Movies are bombing. Christie, Springsteen, Die My Love.

[Richard Russell]

Lol.

[Today Explained Narrator]

Dead last month has been called Hollywood's worst box office run in decades, and these were prestige films. Tinseltown sees the writing on the wall and is pivoting, making a bet on micro dramas. Today on Today Explained. We'll explain what they are, but the bold face names of it all. Disney, Fox, Alexis Ohanian, Kim Kardashian, Kris Jenner, pouring millions of dollars into the teeny tiny Next Big Thing Today Explained Weekdays wherever you get your podcasts.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

I might be a lowborn wolf, but.

[Richard Russell]

I am still Alpha Ash's mate.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

But you made an interesting comment about liking handbags because it seemed to give the person a pause moment. And you said that rings do that for you now. And I noticed that you're wearing some rather good rings. And have you ever tried a handbag now that you registered?

[Richard Russell]

I've got a pouch. It's over there.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Really?

[Richard Russell]

Yeah, I took it off when I came in, but Maharishi make these pouches and it was a game changer for me to have this thing where it's got a notebook and three pens and you know, the practical things like credit card, a Vic Sinex sniffer, some lip balm. It's very, very useful thing to have a pouch. So I mean, yes, it is. It is identical to a handbag, but in a way that I can get away with. And then you do start wondering how you'd survived before you had one of these things.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah. God. And in your memoir, Liberation through, hearing you talk about how your lack of Experience made you unafraid of failure and you became the boss of Excel at 23. I wondered how you did. How do you deal with self doubt?

[Richard Russell]

Well, I think now I deal with self doubt just by acknowledging it. And I think I've got in the habit some time ago of rather than pretending that things don't make me angsty, I just accept that they make me angsty and I do them anyway. And I almost look for that as an indication of something interesting. And if it's making me feel uncomfortable, that means I might be onto something. So I'm pretty suspicious of like feeling too comfortable at any given time. And friend of mine who's a very good artist said to me once, the comfort zone is where you get your head blown off. Yeah. So. And I think when I was younger I just wasn't processing anything, so it was tremendously useful for work because I was just doing, I was just going. And there was no, there was no theory of anything. We didn't even used to use the word artist. I think we were. Have thought of that as pretentious.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

When I started out you were DJing, making tunes and putting the tunes out and that is a sort of, I mean, you know, we didn't know words like multidisciplinary.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

I hate that word.

[Richard Russell]

Right. Well, yeah, it's. It's a bad term actually because. Only because everyone is multidisciplinary.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

There shouldn't need to be a term for it. And everyone. I mean, I actually think it's not just your right as an artist to work in different mediums, it's your human right.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

To do whatever you want and express yourself in any way you want and to make music, take photos, do paintings, design clothes, whatever you feel like doing. And it's strange, this thing that's happened of people being judged harshly, especially if you've done well in a particular medium, people get judged harshly moving into another medium.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And you think that makes no sense at all because every person expresses themselves in more than one way.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And in more than one form. So. And I think I realized this because I started off DJing, making records, label took off. I began to take that very seriously. I ran the label in a very hands on way quite a while and then I felt like I wanted to make music again and there was a certain amount I felt resistance to it internally and from without as well. Of like. Yeah, but once you become someone who runs a record label, are you not on a different side of things? And I just thought, no. Yeah, that's ridiculous. And I got into making records and then I wanted to make my own records. So I started doing that. And I mean, I've spent this whole summer playing live and you know, I will, I will embrace all of these things because they're all forms of expression. And I actually think that moving around and seeing things, I mean everything I do tends to be music related, but it's still often visual. And moving around, seeing things from these different perspectives, it's just very, very healthy. So I just totally reject this idea that people need to stay in this one lane. I think people are busy, so they like to perceive other people as being good at one thing.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And they like to say, oh well, Bella Freud is a fashion designer. That's it. That's what you allowed.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Russell]

But clearly it's nonsense.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And you're not being a fashion designer right now. You're doing something totally different to that and people seem to like it very much.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

And also doing these other things makes you, I find better at being the thing I'm supposed to be. My fashion design, you know, doing it wakes up ideas. And the most important thing is to have ideas or at least think you have.

[Richard Russell]

Absolutely. And I think when I, you know, having intensively, you know, re entered the studio intensively to make that record with Girl Scott Heron and really staying in the studio.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

For some years, like making a succession of records one after the other and really re grounding myself in like studio craft and in producing, sort of going deeper than I did in the like rave era when I was making one off dance records in a very sort of quick fire way with no real notion of sort of process or craft or theory getting back into it in a sort of deeper way. Not that there weren't great advantages to doing it in the less deep way, but it was a different time in my life getting into that deeply. It was tremendously rewarding. But at a certain point I remember having to answer some questions and help out with something that was going on with the label. I found it so refreshing.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

But like doing the laundry, almost like.

[Richard Russell]

Because I've immersed myself in something else. Yeah, yeah. So I think anytime you do that, you are refreshing. You're letting the other part of you refresh itself and lie fallow for a moment and then you come back to it and your eyes are open again. And so, yeah, this year I've been playing live and writing a book and it's been fantastic. But I've got a bit of strange studio like work coming up. Some a Little bit of music making coming up. I'm so excited about it. But I wasn't excited. I wouldn't have been excited about making music in January.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

Or like making records. It was like a different time to like do something, you know, to play live and do something different and writing. So yeah, it's very. For me it's been a big, A big answer to things is like keep the different channels open.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Because by the age of 27 you had a huge amount of success and you describe yourself as 30 pounds heavier and buying expensive, all black clothes. And I wondered how did these clothes symbolize the discord that you were experiencing?

[Richard Russell]

Well, I suppose it's, it's quite. I mean black clothing, obviously people can wear black clothing and still be joyous, but it can also be, it can be symbolic of something, can't it? Of can be symbolic of death. And I think I had, yeah, I mean I had, I had hit a wall. I was, you know, I was having mental health problems that were undiagnosed and at a certain point I was in Miami actually with another one of my closest old friends and I really was struggling. I was having a breakdown. And he's very matter of fact, it's been very blunt and I was trying to talk to him about it and he said, I'm not qualified to really help you with this. You need to seek some proper help. And I was like what? Like, what do you mean? And he was like, with this people you can talk to. Yeah, about things. And I was like who? And he was. I don't know, but there are. And then I thought of another friend whose mum was a psychiatrist and I thought I need to ask him about this. And I did. And his mum found me someone to go and see and it was completely life changing and I was incredibly lucky because I met an amazing psychiatrist who I saw for seven years and worked with very intensively. And I think it was, it was just a sort of a study of the self that I'd never done. I didn't really know what my story was. I had no idea about it and I needed to learn those things. And I think as soon as I started doing that like, things started opening up in my life. For one thing, I realized that the relationship I was in was not right and I was not with the right person, although I was in a serious relationship. And so I ended it, I think to. To her great relief as, as well as mine. I felt very guilty about ending this relationship so abruptly. And then I didn't see my ex for like two or three years. And then I bumped into her on Portobello Road and I said, I'm really, really pleased I bumped into you. I feel so guilty about the abrupt way I ended things. And she said, I know, it was great you did that because you just saved us both so much time. Yeah, it was great. It was great. And I think we could both, you know, see that things went wrong. And then, you know, when you. When you make those changes, it just. First world. It's the gardening term, isn't it? First the cut and then the growth. Yeah. So, you know, obviously every. Yeah, you know, things end and then things begin. So that was really, like. That was. So I got. I think mental health and physical health started kind of happening at the same time.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

For me.

[Richard Russell]

I found a terrific yoga teacher. She taught me yoga one on one, which I've done ever since. And I do every day. I do on my own every day. And that is. That's very important to me. And. Yeah, and I think the interest in just sort of. And I was very lucky. I had music all the way through this. And also there was one point where I said to my friend, his mum found me, the psychiatrist. I said to him, I don't think I can work. I don't think I'm well enough to work. And he said, keep working.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

God.

[Richard Russell]

And it was really great advice because I think that although it was hard, there was something there where I was not the person who was crumbling. Even though I was pretending to be able to do things, I was still. I actually was able to do them because I did them.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And so that gives you another sense of yourself.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Totally. Yes.

[Richard Russell]

And I think that was very. And I think, again, that's a work ethic thing, like, you don't want to completely lose yourself to work. Because I think that was a big part of the problem for me is that I lost myself to work. They're very nuanced, these things, aren't they? I lost myself to work. But it was not the solution to completely do away with work. Just as work had been part of the problem, work became part of the solution. And it was to work in a different way, to work in a more open and less driven and less attached way, and to just not kid yourself that it was the most important thing in the world and. Because then you're kidding yourself that you are the most important thing in the world and it's just not true.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And as soon as I did this and there was a genuine letting go of things for reasons of survival. As soon as I did that, the sort of success kind of like increased. Like it was. It was unbelievable. But I wasn't that attached to it. I mean, I obviously was grateful for it and very accepting of it, but it really did happen. But I was very able to deal with it because it happened at a time when I was like, well, this could be happening. Well, this could not be happening. They both be okay. And as you know, success is happening, then I'm very grateful for it. But if it wasn't happening, that'd be okay. And it doesn't define me and I'm not any better than anyone else because of this. And you know, people work very, very hard for their whole life and don't have a lot of success. And there's a tremendous amount of like happenstance. Right place things beyond their understanding that go into that. So it was. Yeah, that was an interesting period. And then that. There was also a period there where then I met Esther. And that's. That was probably the most life changing thing of all. To meet someone where you felt this really genuine connection. That hasn't changed at all in 25 years or has. I suppose it's changed, but it's deepened over that period and having kids. And then, you know, if you needed proof that you weren't really the center of the universe, you've then got it.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And it's not, you know, it wasn't ever really about you, but then. Then, you know it's not. Yeah, true.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Because you talk about unraveling and how part of your ego had started to disintegrate. And there was something that really struck a chord with me that you said. And it's about the fear itself is the thing. And I found the same, that I'm more afraid of being afraid than actual frightening situations. And I wondered how you go through the mirror with that. It's because it's like what you were describing before, this constant doing to. Not to sort of handle the fear. But it doesn't. It isn't the solution somehow.

[Richard Russell]

It's about acknowledgment, acknowledgement of your own fear. And for me, you know, not. Not being in any type of therapy anymore, writing things down is extremely important.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Do you still write a diary every day? Because you mentioned that in your memo.

[Richard Russell]

I have, I. I have a little book with me always. I don't keep it quite as a diary, like a daily thing, but I will process fear in there. And when you put it on paper, you see it for what it is. Yeah, it's not real. Exactly.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

It feels real.

[Richard Russell]

It was very real. But it's not to be listened to. It's to be ignored. It's to be accepted. It's to be faced. It's your demon, isn't it? It's to be faced, acknowledged, respected in a way. But then you are meant to do the exact opposite of what it's telling you to do. Or more often, what it's telling you not to do. It's saying to you, don't do this thing because you might fail, you might trip up, you might not be able to do it. And the actual you is fine with all those things, it doesn't matter. And that demonic thing is. That's very close to what the ego is. You know, the ego is telling you you can't do these things. And the ego is also, you know, as well as telling you you are lesser than and you are unable to do things. The ego is equally happy to tell you you are more than and you are greater than. The ego is happy to tell you you're superior or inferior. But the actual you knows you're not any of those things. You know, there's is more of a oneness than that. And I think like where our dreams lie is in things that we're a bit scared of. So you've got to navigate your way past those fears and kind of see the fear as a signpost to something great that lies beyond there and something, something enriching and fun and exciting maybe or you know, in your life that you need to, you need, you need to experience. But listen to your fear, you're not going to get to experience it.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

So true. Because being able to sort of know what fear's a generator of progress and kind of courage. And then there's the fear that's. Sometimes I get lost in. Oh, I have a kind of apprehension or fear about doing something and actually like swimming in the sea when I hate being thrown under waves and it makes me lose my courage. And then there's another fear which gives me courage. And I'm. Sometimes I sort of, I'm interested in like pulling apart. Like when I get these signals in my body, like, okay, what is it? You know, mostly it's fine if I can pull apart this kind of spaghetti from invading my head and thinking this kind of, you know, convulsing stomach means something is terribly wrong. And actually it's just something that's going on and it will be okay somehow or other. And there's another thing you said that I really identify with which is about unwittingly putting gurus in the way of your life. And I do that too. I particularly did it with my dad. And I wondered if you think that's part of fearing success, that it's easier to make the other person the star.

[Richard Russell]

I've definitely learned a huge amount from a series of people. I mean, I. I have been very lucky to have people. I think I lacked this figure when I was younger, and I actually think I needed mentorship and. And I found it, and I was incredibly fortunate with that. So with the label. I met Martin Mills, who's the owner of Beggars B Banquet, when I was very young, and he's always been my partner since I was a teenager. We've been working together since I was a teenager.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Incredible.

[Richard Russell]

For my whole adult life. He's in his 70s now. He's still very active, and he, you know, in terms of the record label, he has been an unimaginably great partner. And he's an extremely intelligent and diplomatic person who I've been able to. Who knows a huge amount about music, and I've been able to learn a massive amount from him. So I've been very lucky with that. And then, you know, I had this tremendous psychiatrist at a great yoga teacher. Sounds like the worst Oscar award thank you speech of all time. Thank you to my yoga teacher, to my. To my psychiatrist. And, you know, and actually, at the time when I wanted to, well, even before I made that record with Gil, Liam Howlett from Prodigy, who, again, I'd worked with since I was 19 years old, he said to me, in what must have been 2000 or thereabouts, he said, have you got a laptop and music production software on it? And I said, nope. And he said, you're gonna love this shit. This is like. They've made all this stuff way easier than it was. Those of us who, like, grew up on, like, Akai samplers and, like, the original ways of beat making that were, you know, great in their ways, but lengthy became a lot simpler with laptops and software. And he was absolutely right, and I loved it. And I was so grateful to him to, like, for flagging that to me.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Amazing. Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

Because actually, in working with Prodigy on the label, that did sort of coincide with me stopping making my own music because I sort of recognized how very, very great Liam was. And I wanted to help him with what he was doing and the role that was there was to be the record label. So I embraced that and I did that, and I did it very well. And I wanted Prodigy to be this big worldwide success. Now, obviously they were that because of this incredible music that Liam made and Keith made and Maxim, you know, this amazing group of people. And there's still this amazing, amazing, amazing group. But that did coincide with me stopping making music, and I think Liam had noticed that, and so he flagged this, and that got me back into it. And then I think this notion came up that I wanted to. I wanted to make a record with Girl Scott Heron because I wanted to hear a new record by Gil Scott Heron. And I knew that it would be somewhat difficult, and I knew it wasn't really right to try and find someone else and say to them, oh, can you try and do that? That. If I wanted that to happen, that was something I needed to take on myself and do it and just do it. We were talking about your fears earlier. It was frightening. Yeah, that was frightening. What that entailed, where I had to go, how I had to. You know, we started off writing letters to each other, but was he in prison?

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Because you said he was in Riker's island and you went to visit him in prison. Was that the first time you'd met him in person?

[Richard Russell]

Yeah, but we. We corresponded before that. And the letters were very good and full of humor and lightness, despite him being there. And beautifully written.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Amazing. That record is one of my favorite things I've ever heard, actually. That song Dear Baby, where he said, says, I keep trying to write to you. I mean, it's not like that, but essentially I keep trying to write to you, and all I can put down is Dear Baby. And, oh, God, that killed me. That song, it's just so. Everything about it was so moving. What an amazing experience to have found him and made his last record with him.

[Richard Russell]

It was. It was very. It was very, very deeply moving. And he said at a certain point when we. We used to work at a studio called. Well, we started off working in Looking Glass Studio and just above Soho in Manhattan, Philip Glasser Studio. And then it closed and we moved to another studio. And that closed. These studios just kept close. Was the era, I think, of a lot of studios and record shops closing down. And finally we set up in Clinton, which was in Hell's Kitchen. And it was a lengthy process making that record. And Gail said to me, so is this what you're doing now? Because, you know, I'd been having this. I was running the record label and it was very. Going very well. Making this record with him was my, like, re entry into that. He said, is this, what you're doing now. I kind of felt like he was putting me on the line somehow. And I felt like I had a decision to make then and there.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

So I said yes. And he said, good. We need people like you in this environment.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Wow.

[Richard Russell]

And it's kind of what I've been doing since Amazing, because I felt like I committed to it, but I think. I think I haven't really fully committed to it. The next sort of revelation was the thing we discussed earlier. You don't have to just do that.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

I mean, I did have to just do that for a while because I needed to really fully reimmerse myself in a different working rhythm, different working environments. You know, I'd been working in an office for a while, and I needed to be in a studio. So.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

You seem to have changed profoundly since your crisis because you describe in your book as having a panic attack when you arrived in New York to work with Gil and talking about having an inner coward and saying, I'm weak, except for when I ask for help, I'm strong. And that's such a powerful thing to say. And how did you learn to trust that?

[Richard Russell]

I think it probably came out of the absolute necessity of seeking help. When I had that crisis in my late 20s. I imagine prior to that, I might not have been that good at asking for help. I'm not sure. I think I had this great good fortune of kind of having a business partner. Anyway, I'd never looked for one. It just happened. So that part of my life, I was all right because there was someone helping me.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

I think in other regards, I needed to seek help. And I think once I'd sought help with that in that deepest way, to kind of help with my mind and my emotions, I think then I saw, you know, that cracked something open that I saw. You can always do that. People can always do. And I think what's happened is, as a result of that as well, is I've been able to help other people.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah. That's the key.

[Richard Russell]

And my capacity for that has grown exponentially because I've just been helped so much by people. And I think part of the immense power and beauty of that is you learn a bit about doing that, and then you find yourself getting to a stage in life where people want to ask you things. And initially you kind of think, one minute, what? I don't know anything? And then you realize, I know you have learned some things.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And they maybe are things that it's actually important to share with people, especially if they're asking you and to, like, help people with. And I think this is also part of why I needed to understand various different sides of this world of music is so I can sort of encourage other people's understanding of things.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

Because on the artist side, the artistic side, the business is not well understood.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And it could be true to say that on the business side, the artistic world is not necessarily as well understood as it could be as well. So I think I'm interested in trying to integrate those things and because, you know, it's just a better experience for everyone if there's better. If there's greater understanding on both sides.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And, you know, these things are all. It's all much more integrated and interconnected than it might appear. And people have tremendously varying skills. And, you know, if you're an artist, whether you like it or not, you're a business person.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

You haven't got a boss.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

So.

[Richard Russell]

True. You've got your work. And if you're doing it well enough that it's generating money, you know, you've got responsibilities that come with it. You've got bills to pay and you might have employees you might know and people you're working with, and you've got to work that stuff out. And in the music world, oftentimes, as an artist, you'll think, well, my manager's doing that. But that's not exactly how it works, because your manager has their own business.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And if you don't succeed as an artist, at the same time, your manager could be successful succeeding enormously with other things they're doing. So your business could be disintegrating while your manager's business is becoming very successful. So I think there is a sort of. You kind of got to resign yourself to this slightly disappointing reality that you have to be across everything. As an artist, you absolutely need help. You absolutely can delegate things and you can find people and they can help with them. You have no possibility of succeeding in anything if you don't even know you're doing it.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

So I think that's. That's definitely found that it's. It's. It's a helpful thing to people to encourage them to just understand the different sides of what they're dealing with. And likewise, on the. On the business side, like, you have to understand what artistry is, is what. What the making of art is, what that entails. And. Yeah. So I think that's like, become something that interests me a lot, is just trying to encourage that communication and that. That flow.

[Today Explained Narrator]

The biggest company in the world has been making the same product since 1993. GPUs, graphics processing units or chips. It was niche at first.

[Richard Russell]

If you were a really serious gamer back in like 1998, you'd be buying one of Nvidia's graphics cards, Nvidia putting that into your high powered gaming computer in 2025.

[Today Explained Narrator]

Nvidia is still making chips, but now those chips are more advanced and they're being sold to people who are training AI models, your clauds and your chat GPTs. AI has become such a big part of the American economy that the entire stock market can swing on whether in video releases, a good earnings report or a bad one. Meanwhile, President Trump has developed a work bromance with Nvidia's co founder and CEO Jensen Huang.

[Richard Russell]

This is a smart cookie traveling with.

[Today Explained Narrator]

Wang to exotic locales and involving the CEO in foreign policy calls. That's on Today Explained Today Explained Every weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Richard Russell]

Support.

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[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Because you say about your work with Adele that music must have depth and she achieved the holy Grail music with genuine emotional residence that transcended all modern commercial expectations. And when you have this recognition about an artist, is it a. Is it almost a physical sensation that you kind of know something is going to happen?

[Richard Russell]

It's a very commonplace, very ordinary, very everyday sensation of being a fan, right? And as a fan, you cannot get it wrong. No music fan is ever wrong about the things they love. I mean, how could you be wrong if you were a music fan and if you. So if you grew up loving Luther Vandross, Public Enemy and Madonna, what was the connection between those three things? It's you. Is that you're a fan of them.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Such a good point.

[Richard Russell]

And, and you, you can't possibly be wrong about that. You just love those things. And so I, I think the, the danger in the, in any industry is people get industrialized. So rather than being frank, a fan of music, people are trying to think about what music other people will like and will sell. Now that's, I mean, there are people who can do that. But that seems clever in a brain and not heart way. Yeah, in a way which is completely beyond me. So I think if, I think if you have a genuine love for something, you are right about it. Now that doesn't mean that you're going to know what other people think about it and what they're going to make. I have never said that I know that for anything, but I can say when I hear something and I love it. And I think, you know, sometimes you find that you, you know, some, some because I, because I do like, you know, I, I think like most people, I like a huge breadth of music and some of it is extremely niche and some of it's extremely popular. I don't judge music on that basis. It's not that. It's not actually that important. And also something might start off as seeming very impenetrable and niche and then give it 20, 30 years.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

You talked about Daniel Blumberg in your, in your book and being in that band, is it Cajun dance, something? I can't remember the name of the band. But now he's won an Oscar and a BAFTA for his music for the brutalist film. I met him recently and so then to find him cropping up in your book was really great. And in fact, I mean, when I first heard about you through a mutual friend, you incredibly ill with a neurological disorder, I think is it called Guillaume syndrome. And through this friend I was hearing about the trajectory of you getting better and then trying to find out what was wrong. And then when I finally met you, you had this kind of incredible composure as though you'd come back from the River Styx. And in your book you talk about detaching from the panic of when you were for a while paralyzed from the neck downwards and then also realizing you needed to enroll your drive as part of your rehabilitation. You describe it, you know, it was so visceral and I Wondered whether you had an artistic fantasy during that time that you also kind of work towards as part of your getting out and getting better.

[Richard Russell]

I mean, it was very quiet, that phase, you know, it was like the first quiet time in my life, I think in what had been a very, you know, kind of dreamlike sort of experience of life of. Of my bedroom walls and edgeware being covered in all these pictures of musicians. And I kind of felt like I was. Like I was in that. That sort of came to life or something.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

It was amazing. Very colorful and noisy. And then. Yeah, this is that experience when I was 42. It's like. Seems to be an age old. Things happen to people a lot. Yeah, it was very quiet and you know, there was no. I mean, I had this for a while I had this tremendous stillness and I thought. I actually thought I've cracked it. So when I was at my worst. Yeah, I had this door. I mean, it's. I thought I've cracked it. I've sort of transcended. I have this great stillness. And then I was very, very ill when I had that thought. And I think sort of oblivious maybe to that. And then quite soon after that, when I got a bit more awareness about what happened and what might be necessary to recover, it was not still anymore.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Right.

[Richard Russell]

I felt like, oh, I have this tremendous sort of battle ahead of me and I do need to enlist my drive. And I don't know if I had that as a thought, but it happened. I did enlist my drive, I did enlist my ambition. My ambition became. Came to get beyond these physical limitations that were imposed upon me and to. Yeah. Each stage of it to. To battle towards not having a catheter. A catheter is a particular hell.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

To get upright and not pass out because I couldn't do that for a long time. So then to be in a wheelchair and then to be walking and that's an unbelievable life experience to have because actually it's like seeing. It's like seeing very, very old age. And then I had a great recovery. So I felt like I got to see youth again. I mean, I felt so youthful. Yeah, of course, on the other side of this, I mean, I actually still do.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

Because I have a joy, you know, I have a joy in like walking up Portobello Road to get a coffee. I mean, it's joyous because I had it taken away and it was. That's bad. You know, I lost. You sort of lose your freedom. And it's amazing to get it back.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Incredible.

[Richard Russell]

And it was I mean, I don't, obviously wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I do not look, I look. I look on it as an entirely consistent part of my life. And I look at it as overall an extremely positive thing to have happened to me. But I also felt very loved. And it was when I was 42. You know, I had mental health problems in my late 20s, and I felt completely alone when that happened. And that was much tougher. It didn't look tougher. Most people didn't know there was anything wrong. Yeah, this thing happened to me in my early 40s and actually I had this tremendous outpouring of sympathy from people because it looked bad. I mean, it was bad. It looked bad. But my feeling about it also, when you have this type of illness, it's not. And it's like getting hit by a vehicle. You know, I have a friend who was hit by a vehicle recently. And as terrible as it is, there isn't. On the whole, there isn't a deterioration period. That's a very hard thing to handle when you're getting worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. With what I had, it was like getting hit by a bus and I was gone. But then it was like lots of bits of good news. Yeah, that's how I saw it anyway. You know, you were taking every win.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And each part of that, I saw it as reason for elation. Each. Each little win and being able to. I was in hospital in Queen Square.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah, I've been there.

[Richard Russell]

We have very good neurological. An amazing place, hospitals in London. I thought London was there for me. London caught me with these, like, great neurological hospitals we have. I was in Queen Square for a period of months and I have an extremely vivid memory of the day I. The first day I went out the hospital in a wheelchair into Queen Square itself. The colors, the vivid. I was very hallucinogenic. Gosh. It was very, very lsd and the. The. A wasp. I was looking at a wasp on a flower. It was so vivid. It was. It was so beautiful. Yeah. To be able to see. To be able to see that, like this sort of re. Seeing of everything and. Yeah. And then like. And then back into the room. But then, you know, gradually getting out more. And, you know, there used to be a Spanish restaurant on Lamb's Conduit street, which has gone now. I went there. That was the first time I attempted a meal. It didn't actually work out that well. I passed out during it. But there was, you know, there was a moment in that that was Good. You know, just all. All of those things. Like, do you ask.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Moving back to life. I mean, what a miraculous thing.

[Richard Russell]

Yeah. What a trip.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Incredible. Because also with everything is recorded, you put yourself artistically at the center of that. And I had the good fortune to be there at one of the. You had two live recordings, I think, of that album. I came to one of them and I listened to that record still all the time. It made such an impression on me. It was so beautiful and moving and you play this electric beats sort of drum thing. Sorry to describe it in such a clunky way, but. And I think you're in a duo now with Sam Morton too, is that.

[Richard Russell]

We've done that as a band, but actually we've been doing everything is recorded shows all this year. Really. All this summer, yes. We've just done a run of eight shows, mostly festivals, because it was wonderful. Incredible with Sam playing with some of the shows.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Really?

[Richard Russell]

Yeah. With a bunch of like a core band of five, but with lots of different people joining us. Yeah, it's been great.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

I found. I discovered so many great musicians from that album and Obonjaya and Sampha and ebay. I mean, everyone was just so gigs, you know, just so affecting. It was like such an extreme feeling of happiness and sadness all intensified in that. And I remember there was a sticker that came with. With the. With the album and it said something amazing and I can't remember what it was. I had it on my mantelpiece for years. And anyway, it was.

[Richard Russell]

I think that sticker said it was a lyric that Sanford came out with. And I think it said, you are beautiful just as you are.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yes, that was it.

[Richard Russell]

And the idea with that sticker was. It was clear. So the idea was you put it on a mirror.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Oh, gosh.

[Richard Russell]

And it said, you are beautiful just as you are.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And that was a. Sanford is a remarkable artist.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah, it's like.

[Richard Russell]

And the way he. The way we recorded, we record his songs, he. He just freestyles, he like channels. He's kind of writing and recording at the same time. And that was. That was a line he came up with. And I think he was singing about his mum who passed away quite recently. It was very, very beautiful. Sort of heartfelt line. But we're doing a. We're going to do a London show in November, so you should come.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Oh, yeah, I'll definitely come to that. You reflect that having a recording studio means that in your best moments you can practice a kind of alchemy, that pain becomes art. The causes of our sorrow can be turned into the making of music. And I was going to ask you, has music given you freedom? But it clearly has, as you've mentioned that a number of times and it seems that that's continually growing in your life.

[Richard Russell]

Yeah, I, one of the last times I got my hair cut, it was fairly random. Barber I walked into, I was in Australia and the guy cutting my hair, he seemed a little, a little bit troubled. But he was saying that he, he made music on a laptop. And he, I said, oh, that's good, you know, that'll be, that's, that's always good. You know, that's a great practice to have. And he said, yeah, but you know, I've been having a lot of. I'm feeling really down recently. And when I'm down, like, I don't tend to get on the laptop and make music. And I was like, that's when you need to get on the laptop and make music. And he was like, I really, like, I wouldn't have thought that was like when I'd be, when it would be any good. And I was like, no, that's when it will be good.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

That's the medicine.

[Richard Russell]

And this is, you know, it's one of the incredible. I mean, thankfully you don't have to even be a musician. You can just be a music fan. I mean, people realize you listen, you can listen to music when you're not feeling good and it can have a tremendous impact on your mood and on how you feel. And it's an amazing, always available resource for that. But if you happen to have a music maker making practice, it's extraordinary how it can transform your state of mind. But I think this is true of any creative practice. It's like if you are feeling troubled and down anything you. Because, because anything creative is productive.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Yeah.

[Richard Russell]

And if you, if you do something productive, you feel better. Yeah, because I think when we're at our worst, we don't feel productive. Yeah, we don't feel capable of being productive and of contributing anything. And so I think the minute you write something down, put some colors on a bit of paper or make some music, you, you feel different. Yeah, it does change the mood. So I think my studio is a. People have often commented if that they feel it has a healing energy to it. And obviously that's not something I could have deliberately aimed to do, but it has had that effect for me. The studio was. I was building the studio when I got ill, really. I was working a guy called Matt Thornhill who was working at Excel, who now works at Young, was very deeply involved in it. And I kind of managed to say to him, I'm not going to be able to be involved in this now. Like, you got to do it. And he did it, and he did it so beautifully, I think better than it would have happened if I was involved. I think I might have been maybe almost thinking too much. He. And it's. My studio is just a very beautiful environment. It's also very functional. It works very well for me, music making, but it's relaxed, it's a relaxing place as well. So that's the sort of. And I remember I started seeing my psychiatrist again a little bit after I was ill. He's passed away now, unfortunately. But he said when I was recovering, he said, so, so what are you going to do now? You're going to go to work? And I said, yeah, I've got a new place to go to work. I've just built a studio. And he said, oh, what's it like? I described it to him and he said, someone up there is looking out for you.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Oh, that's so sweet. How lovely.

[Richard Russell]

Because the timing of it was just. It just was unbelievable, really, that I had this place where I'd be able to go every day because, you know, there's also. I like, I meditate there, I do yoga there, I exercise there. It's, you know, it's. It's that for me as well as a workplace and, yes, great. I mean, I know I never had that resource until that point in my life. So, I mean, I walk through the door every day and, like, feel lucky to be there, which is a good thing. You.

[Interviewer (Fashion Neurosis Host)]

Well, thank you so much, Richard, for being on Fashion Neurosis. It's been incredibly interesting and moving to hear your. Your thoughts and thank you so much for being here.

[Richard Russell]

Oh, thank you for letting me lie on your sofa. Sa.