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- [00:00]
A
Today's show is brought to you by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Fashion is never just about clothes, is it? It's about identity, culture, and the stories we tell ourselves and others. For those exploring design concepts or questioning what drives our choices, Claude can be your thinking partner. Claude is the AI collaborator that helps you dig deeper into the questions that fascinate you, whether that's understanding cultural movements, exploring creative concepts, or working through complex problems. Try Claude for free@claude aifashionneurosis.
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B
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A
Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis.
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B
Tessa Thompson, thank you so much for having me.
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A
Bella Freud, can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
- [01:31]
B
Yes. I'm wearing this Yves Saint Laurent suit skirt suit that I found at a vintage store recently in New York City and I was having what I I have these moments sometimes where I think I must go in this store. There's something for me in there. And, and then I found this and I realized why I'm wearing a shirt, a silk shirt by the row that a friend gave me for my birthday recently that I was touched by because no one ever buys me clothes. And I'm wearing a pair of Margiela little kitten heels that they gifted me when I went to the recent Paris show. And I thought they'd be nice to look down it when I was in the couch. And I picked the suit, I guess because it felt, I feel often when I'm getting dressed, torn between them, I guess something that feels more aggressively boxy or masculine and something that feels kind of feminine. And this particular suit felt like both.
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A
Yeah, there's I've got the boots of those shoes and I've never worn them. I bought them at the beginning of the hot summer and then was waiting and then I've tried them on a couple of times, but I don't care if I never wear them. They're the most beautiful things.
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B
Aren't they gorgeous? I realized that I the straps to these shoes, they have a little ankle strap and they're in my purse, but I kind of think they're nice with or without.
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A
Wonderful.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And the tight is very good. I knew you'd be wearing a great look, and you are. And the suit is incredible.
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B
Can I ask, do you typically imagine what you think the guest is gonna wear? Do you try to make guesses?
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A
A little bit, yeah. Cause often when I'm studying a person, I see them in these amazing outfits. And then a lot of people arrive quite low key. Yeah, but I didn't think you would.
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B
I was torn between that. My other option was way more low key. But I thought I'd like to dress up for you.
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A
No, I appreciate it.
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B
Also, I sort of wanted to wear a suit. You know, I've never worn one of yours, which I'm excited to one day, but I thought I'd like to wear something that felt I can homage to you.
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A
Oh, thank you. Well, I'm definitely revering the whole.
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B
What did you think I might be wearing?
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A
Well, you're really experimental and daring in the way you put things together, so I knew I'd be quite awestruck by whatever you had on. And this is really exquisite. It's definitely having an effect on my heart.
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B
What would you call this thing that I have?
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A
I know it's sort of a mini skirt with a train or. Because it's more than a step. It's. Yeah, it's really great, I must say. It's like a kind of. You know how you would. It has that sort of masculine swagger and it's very feminine.
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B
Yeah. When I bought it, I thought, I have no idea where I'll wear this. And it was before I knew I would come here. And then I thought, this is the perfect place.
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A
Great. You're an acclaimed actor in both independent films and major blockbusters like Creed and the Marvel film franchise. And you have an ability to stop pulses with this look that you have that draws people in and it seems so natural. And I wonder, have you ever been self conscious?
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B
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Hugely, I think. Well, my. My father is a big cinephile, so I grew up watching films with him, but he also. Because he liked film so much, he also liked to capture images. And he would often use me as his subject. He would test light and try tricks on his camera with the Super 8 or with tape or then digital, and he would use me. So my sort of early experiences being in front of a camera was with my dad. And then I didn't feel self conscious at all. I felt very, very free. In the same way that I imagine you being painted by your father. Right. There's this kind of comfortability, I suppose. But then I remember when I first started acting in television, it sort of. And in film, it took me a minute to really develop that sort of intimate relationship with the camera. And I realized that so much of it had to do with who's behind the lens and really allowing yourself to be seen by them. And because my earliest experiences were with someone that I felt so free being seen by, I never had to sort of do that work. And then when I started to work professionally, I realized that there's definitely work.
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A
To be done, but you had something to draw on because of.
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B
Yeah.
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A
That experience with him, because he was the. He's the musician Mark Anthony Thompson, and he has amazing style and developed some incredible looks and part of the. The collective musicians. I don't know quite how to describe it. The Chocolate Genius.
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B
Yeah, Chocolate Genius incorporated.
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A
Yeah. And was fashion a thing in your household?
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B
Yeah, hugely. But it wasn't even something. Not just my father, because he, as you said, he has such an extraordinary sense of style and always did. And then my mom, too. And I would hear stories about my mom when they first met and these sort of wild looks that my mom would be in. She had a real daring sense of fashion. She worked very briefly as a. As a model, and she loved color. And then she also, you know, learned how to sew and sort of could whip things up and make things. So I always was very acutely aware that fashion, or, first of all, we all wear. We have to wear clothes, but that there's this extraordinary ability to express self with clothing. And also, neither of my parents dressed me. They always let me dress myself from a very young age.
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A
Really?
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B
Yeah. So I. And I could pick things from their closets. So there's early photographs of me and, like, one of my dad's oversized T shirts, and then a belt that I would cinch at the waist, and that became a dress. Or later I would borrow all this vintage jewelry from my. From my mother. So I was very sort of. Yeah. Just aware that the clothes were a way to express oneself. And it was only really when I went to school and then sometimes would be teased for the things that I would be wearing that I realized that what you could put on could also. It could invite people in, but it could also offend or confuse people as well. But my parents, whenever I got dressed at home, they never made me feel like anything I wanted to wear was wrong or out of place. So I always felt a tremendous amount of freedom getting dressed.
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A
Yeah. Because I Watched some of your Vogue getting ready dressing videos and was really struck by how you put things together. And it's so inventive. And do you remember the first piece of clothing that you became obsessed with as a child?
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B
Yes. My dad had been on tour, I think, in Paris, and he brought back a pair of green suspenders for me from a boy and a suit that had a little vest and it was some sort of like light tweed. It was a. It was a little boy suit. And those two things. I just was so obsessed with a. Because the idea of Paris felt so glamorous. I didn't even know. I didn't know its connection to fashion necessarily. I just thought, wow, something from Paris. That is so cool. And then also I quite liked that it was boys clothes.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because then it felt sort of like a costume or a disguise. But the suspenders I loved pairing with all sorts of things. And actually an odd outfit that I wore, and I only know because I've seen photographs, is I wore long johns with a white T shirt tucked into it with those green suspenders. And then this big beaded necklace that I must have maybe gotten from my grandmother. And it was such a funny little outfit with a pair of skater shoes, these simples. And I loved that outfit so much. I just thought it was so cool.
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A
How old were you then?
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B
I was maybe six or seven.
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A
Oh, gosh.
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B
Yeah.
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A
That's great.
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B
And I just. Yeah. But those green suspenders, I wish I still had them.
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A
Yeah. Cause here we call and braces and suspenders are the things that hold up your stockings.
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B
Oh, that's right. But I would have loved a pair of those.
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A
Yeah. They sound like they would have fitted the story as well.
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B
Completely. I also had these pair of boots which I only know because my mom told me stories about. They were lace up boots. And in school I got the nickname Granny Grip because they thought I looked like a grandma because I wore these sort of lace up boots. But I love them.
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A
I love them because you describe being bullied at a particular school and your mother being very immediate about not putting up with any of that and getting you straight out. And do you think her deft moves about protecting you influenced how you make decisions?
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B
Oh, wow, that's extraordinary. I never thought about that. Yeah. Yeah. I think probably this idea that I guess inside of that that there was nothing wrong about me, just the place was wrong, you know, because it's quite.
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A
Common for the person in the position to make, you know, to the parent or whoever, the protector to sort of lose their Nerve and think maybe that this is better than somewhere else. And it's so great when somebody in a position of authority just gets you out of the danger and protects you. And it sort of reminds you what to do really, if that comes up again.
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B
Yeah. What to do for ourselves too. I think she recognized in me that I probably needed to be inside of a school that cultivated the. You know, what I think all children have, which is a sense of they're still finding their individual selves, but unsocialized kids wear extraordinary things, say extraordinary things. And this particular school was very rigid and also very big. And I think she recognized that I maybe needed a bit of a smaller space and maybe needed more. Needed to be in an environment that sort of nurtured and cultivated my individuality as opposed to suppressed it. And I'm. Yeah, I'm grateful to her.
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A
God, it's so wonderful to have a mother like that.
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B
It's just.
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A
It's a rare thing.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because at college. Is it. Was it at college or at school you. You formed a racial harmony group?
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B
In my high school. Yeah.
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A
How did that work and what was your objective with that?
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B
I think my objective was I did it with another student and a teacher. We got involved in what we did. It's sort of such a wacky idea now that I think about it. It's a funny idea. We got basically 100 students together to talk about race. And it was 20 students from. @ that point. I don't know how we define race now in the United States, but at that point there were like five main racial group people that identified or were any of those racial groups. We had 20 from each group. And you came together and you spoke sometimes to your own race group about perceptions about yourselves relative to race. And then you spoke about perceptions about the other groups relative to race. And you put your ideas, different stereotypes ideas that you either hold yourself or ones that you've been told. And then we came together and got to sort of be in dialogue with each other around our mutual perceptions. And we spent a weekend doing that and all camped out at the school having these conversations about race.
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A
It's a brilliant idea. I mean, it should happen in every school. It's such a. It's genius to. To make it normal to. To ask questions and get answers and find out about. I mean, it's so obvious. But people. People are clunkily awkward about how to get somewhere or just dim witted about what's obvious.
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B
Totally. And also scared to say the wrong thing. And so there was something about writing these perceptions on these boards in secret in these groups where you feel safe basically to talk about some of these perceptions. And. And then you have a kind of, you know, privacy around speaking about some of those things. And then you come into conversation with others and really talk. Talk it through. I guess at the time I was just interested. I mean, I'm multiracial, so probably that was a part of the texture too. But the high school that I went to was a big public high school, 4,000 students. And it was the first time I had ever gone to public school since that school that my mom took me out of. And something that I really observed at the time is that there was a lot of just I'd walk around campus and people were sort of siloed in their groups and a lot of the times they were sort of segregated by race. And I felt sort of confused by that. And also there had been a period at my high school where I think there was some what the faculty thought of as racial related issues that were happening on campus. And so I guess I was just curious to talk about it and to create some way to organize around talking about it. And I think maybe it was before I understood that I wanted to do that with storytelling, that I wanted to create these things, these provocations that I wanted to be able to ask people questions through a piece of work that they could go home hopefully and talk to their friends and family. I didn't yet know that it was before I started doing theater. I think I started doing theater the year after. But I think I was longing for a way to be in conversation with others and to start one and to wrestle with the things that I was wrestling with internally in community, I guess.
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A
That's so clever. It's brilliant.
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B
Yeah. I don't think it solved anything on campus.
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A
You just never know how someone will take something away and what they might do with it. You know, like your mother taking that, making that swift action. And that's really important.
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B
I know, that's so interesting. I'd be so curious to speak to another student that was there and. And talk to them about their memory of it actually. Such a formative time.
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A
Yeah, it is. It's really when you learn to. Where you're going to make a stand or not really completely. Yeah.
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B
And sort of who you are and. And what you want and how you see the world and. And it's oddly. Can feel like a pretty lonely time.
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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B
So I think I was in like so many clubs too. I think I was just really wanting to be in kind of community and find people that were like minded and figure out things together.
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A
Today's show is brought to you by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. You know how certain pieces of clothing can haunt you. That vintage Saint Laurent blazer, the perfect pair of jeans that represents an entire decade's Rebellion, or the 150-year-old shoe style we're all suddenly obsessed with. Claude is right there with you. It's a thinking partner that helps you explore the deeper psychology behind what we wear and why it matters. When you're trying to understand why certain designers become cultural lightning rods, or examining how fashion reflects our collective anxieties and desires, Claude helps you trace those invisible threads. Together you can explore how a simple hemline shift signals social change or why certain aesthetics resurface when they do. What's compelling about Claude is how it works with your curiosity. Whether you're analyzing the cultural influences of a particular era, exploring the business behind the beauty, or working through your own relationship with style, it becomes a collaborator in understanding fashion as language, as history, as neurosis. Try Claude for free@claude aifashionneurosis and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Because you talked about wanting to play roles normally performed by men and I wondered who you'd like to play.
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B
Oh, that's a good question. I played Juliet once when I was 18 and I remember at the time I thought, oh, I'd really like to give Romeo a go.
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A
Yeah, it's such a good idea.
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B
I still think it'd be quite cool to do a production where they, you just swap, you know, every night.
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A
I agree. It would make it much more.
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B
It's always so boring. Romeo and Juliet. I know.
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A
And you featured in one of my all time favorite music video, the Pink by Janelle Monae. Yes, I watched that about a thousand times. You were clearly the favorite girl in the group and I, I wondered, how do you deal with being the favorite?
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B
Oh, gosh, I don't know that that's something I'm often struck with having to be, you know, that was so such a fun thing to make because there was so much spontaneity. Janelle and her team had told me this idea of this emotion picture that they wanted to make, but when I got there, I didn't really know much. And those extraordinary pants that I'm kind of burst out of, there was so much of that that was just sort of improvisation and, and, and just reacting in real time to the clothes. Really. And to how kind of dazzling they were. And I've always had an interesting relationship with color. And especially colors like pink or red, these colors that are sort of. I don't know, have this kind of particular connotation or something. So I also really loved this. This idea of this. This song, this pink. There's something kind of lush and sensual and also private about that color. And I think I always really enjoy. It's one of the things I love about what I do is that it gives me opportunity to wear things. Things or to. To. To move in ways that I don't necessarily. And it sort of nudges me in that direction. So especially having the opportunity to wear. To wear color, because it's not always the thing that I'm inclined towards. But especially while making that, I realized I actually really love the color pink.
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A
Well, you just. You couldn't not love it. I mean, whatever ambiguous relationship one might have to pink after that, you were just completely. You got the virus. I mean, it was just so witty and sort of about girls and women in the way that we know as being those creatures, you know, that all the kind of little closenesses and the clothes were amazing. And I heard somebody told me that. I don't know if this is true, but the design school in Antwerp, the director had gone there and said, you've got to make these things. And they'd worked overnight and made these incredible sort of vagina trousers, which were actually the most glamorous, dainty things you've ever seen in your life.
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B
Completely. And in fact, I was there when they arrived, really on set. And it was like. It was amazing. It was extraordinary to watch, because I did. I didn't know that they were coming. And then they arrived and there was just this excitement from. From everybody that these. These special pants had arrived. And then when we. They unboxed them, I was like, wow, they're worth the wait, these things.
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A
Complete works of genius.
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B
Yeah, they really were. I don't know where they are now, actually. It's a good question.
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A
They should be in some sort of, you know, place that you can go that makes you feel better, right?
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B
That you can visit. Like a little pussy for.
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A
Visit them.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Because you. You've said you're attracted to men and also to women. And I wonder, does your romantic style of engagement change depending on which gender you're with?
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B
That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. I mean, I don't really know. I've been thinking about this a lot because I feel like we're in such a space of there's so much sort of focus on identity and how we categorize ourselves. And I think I've never felt too comfortable with that. I've never been really interested in labeling what it is I am or certainly who it is I love. I think I'm just attracted to people and, and, and to who they are. And occasionally I've been surprised by there, by the people that I've been attracted to and where it's taken me. But I think it's, it's, it's people first. I'm not sure that it changes my relationship to, to, to myself necessarily, but I, I just think that sometimes gender hems us in this idea of how we should behave or how we should dress. I sometimes think that we would do things differently were we not so concerned about how it lines up with our gender. Frankly, I think that's the thing that I've always felt struck by. I remember one of the things I loved about that boy suit that my father brought me is I always felt kind of curious about the experience of someone else, just full stop in general. I remember one time going to a park and tucking all of my hair into a baseball cap. It's actually very Shakespearean and sort of dressing like a boy and going into the park just to see what it felt like to be in this park as a boy and to interact with girls as a boy.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I don't think that it's. I didn't feel like a girl then. I very much did. And I think that felt, you know, very comfortable. But I think I just felt curious. Curious about what it must, you know, feel like to move through space as a boy.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I do think clothes have an incredible ability to literally make us move through space differently. And I just have a rather large appetite for, for feeling. For feeling. For feeling all sorts of ways. And I, I sort of feel like I use clothes to inch me there.
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A
You know, I, I totally agree. It's. I mean, there's something about your father giving you the boy suit which is aligning you with him almost like a father and son and having that kind of fun.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Together by him doing that.
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B
Yeah, it's true. I still love taking things for my dad. I love occasionally borrowing his jackets or vest or my little sister Jalen. And I love to take his old, like vintage torn up T shirts. Yeah. I think that feeling of connection. Did your, did you ever, did your father ever give you something, an article of clothing? Yeah.
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A
Well, when, when I used to sit for him. Sometimes I'd wear one of his shirts.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And then when I'd go on a summer holiday, he'd give me some shirts so I didn't get a tan.
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B
He didn't want my like button down shirts. Yeah.
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A
He had men's shirts that sometimes he had made.
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B
Right.
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A
And then. Yeah, I would, I liked wearing his things. It just. Anything I could do to get closer and be more like him in a way.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And then these shirts were quite kind of pure in a way. And then I felt like I had this garb of purity, but I could, you know, not be pure underneath that. But it was. It's like a kind of almost like one of those Greek mythologies where someone gives you this thing and it brings you something, some sort of extra strength.
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B
Yeah. And do you think it had a great influence then on what you would make?
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A
Yeah, I think there was something about his composure, like. Cause when he was painting he would wear more rag. He would wear these chef's trousers and a shirt that had somehow got paint on. So.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And sometimes towards the end of his life he had this hideous jumper, this V neck, this kind of weird barley colored thing. And then there was an enormous hole in the arm so he just cut the arms off and he just kept wearing this jumper and he'd sort of stomp around the studio. But that was one of the only times he's ever worn anything. I've thought, oh, I wish you wouldn't wear that.
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B
And did he ever wear something that you really coveted that you were like, I want that thing.
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A
He used to have these, these kind of cashmere vests from Huntsman, which was a Savile Row tailor with a little white collar. Grandpa. You know those stands. Yeah. So he looked like someone from the turn, like 1900 or something. But they were really soft and I. I really wanted one. He never gave me one of those.
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B
He never gave me one. I remember going into closet which was my dad's old room in my grandparents house, which now my dad actually my family lived there. So it's been in the house for ages. And I found this one platform shoe from my dad from the 70s, which is a purple, sort of, kind of a magenta purpley with a buckle. And I just found the one. And I remember for years and years I was really trying to find the other. And then he also had a pair of purple velvet pants that I held onto forever and then finally they fit me.
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A
Gosh.
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B
But I just used to think about him during that time because he. Yeah, he Would wear lots of color and wore platforms.
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A
He was the coolest. When I looked him up, I was just astonished by how beautiful he was and still is. And just the way he wears things is really inspiring. I often get more inspired by a man's style because I feel I can do something with it. It will suit me more than a feminine thing, which I tend to look less feminine in.
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B
Yeah, I think I kind of have the same thing. Although I loved big, like, frilly dresses when I was little. Like, I just. I just had a couple of those that I really, really loved. But as a family, we would go sort of as a matter of necessity sometimes we shopped at a lot of thrift stores. And now my family still, we all love to shop at thrift stores. But really got me into vintage clothes.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
And I went through a period. I sang in this choir in Los Angeles, and the dress code was you had to wear a floor length vintage gown. And so I went through just a period where I just had so many because I would just love to collect them. And I just love the sensation of sort of swaying and singing in them. But I agree with you. They felt like, aggressively feminine. I can only do it in that context. But otherwise they just never felt like they, you know, sit on me. Right.
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A
It's so great to have to wear a floor length gown. Then you just drop all your reservations, go the full completely, completely. And I read that you have a tattoo of the word yes on your body. And I. I wondered, what's that a yes to.
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B
Kind of everything? I also have a no.
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A
Oh, really?
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B
Which I got years later. I think it's up here somewhere. Tiny little no. Or on, I guess, depending on how you're looking at it.
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A
That's good.
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B
Yeah. I never bothered to look this story up to make sure that it was true because I didn't want it to not be true. But I remember hearing the way that John Lennon met Yoko Ono as he went to a group show. And in it she had a piece. I forget what the piece is called, but it's just a white ladder that is stood in the middle of room. And if you walk up the ladder, there's a magnifying glass attached to the ceiling. And if you find the right spot, there's a tiny little yes. And when he got off the ladder, he asked whose piece it was, and it was a group show. So they said that piece is Yoko Ono's. And that's how they met. And I always thought it was such a romantic story.
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A
It's Fantastic.
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B
What a way to meet somebody.
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A
So good. It's very Alice in Wonderland, right? Yeah.
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B
This idea that you just, if you follow it, you know, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll find something. And I just love that story so much. And I told the story to a friend of mine, and she already knew it. It was a story that she loved, too. And so we decided on a whim that we should go out and get these tattoos together.
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A
I like.
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B
And she had 19 vintage typewriters, and she happened to have one typewriter that did cursive writing. And so she typed a tiny little yes, just like the one that would have been on the ceiling. And then we went in and we used that as the model for this tattoo.
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A
That's so lovely. That's great. It's good to have a yes, you know?
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B
I think so, yeah. I like the idea of it being more for other people now. You know, I started getting tattoos because my skin kind of scars so easily. Like, life would give me these tiny little tattoos, and I thought I should.
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A
Just, oh, that's great.
- [35:12]
B
Kind of tattoo myself now, because the little scars I would have, I wouldn't even know what they're from. And I was like, if I'm going to, you know. Yeah. Be marked, I might as well mark myself with things that make me remember something I desperately don't want to forget.
- [35:32]
A
And if you're feeling low, are there certain clothes that make you feel better?
- [35:37]
B
Hmm. If I'm feeling low, usually if I'm lucky enough, I probably would want to stay indoors maybe and be cozy, so something that kind of feels cozy. I always love people that, like, when they don't feel good, they dress up or want to look sort of sexy or they want to feel, you know. That doesn't really work for me, I think. I like to just. I like to feel sort of wrapped in something like a sweater or the idea of, like, walking around at home in a robe like that. Yeah, that feels good. If I'm feeling down. Or maybe I would cozy up in bed and I'm just wearing, like a slip.
- [36:31]
A
That sounds nice.
- [36:32]
B
Wrapped in blankets, like something cozy.
- [36:35]
A
I had a friend who would. The more unhappy she was, the less she'd wear. Remember meeting her in the morning for a dog. I mean, this was years ago and she was wearing a floor length Ozzie Clark flimsy dress, just sort of clinging to her body with this dog, just dragging her along and really high shoes. And I just thought it was so impressive.
- [37:01]
B
That's so cool. I want to be here.
- [37:05]
A
Yeah, same.
- [37:08]
B
What do you wear when you're feeling down?
- [37:10]
A
I think a shoe kind of gives me courage. It's like, if I wear a high shoe, like a wedge, you know?
- [37:18]
B
Yeah. Not like a stiletto.
- [37:19]
A
I feel like it gives me literally more backbone and my. My resolve is, like, recalibrated.
- [37:26]
B
Yeah.
- [37:27]
A
So that kind of takes care of my misery.
- [37:32]
B
Yeah, I find that too. I find that too. I honestly think this is so silly, but, you know, during the pandemic, I didn't wear any heels that basically that whole time. And it might have helped my spirit. It might have lifted them a couple times had I. Because sometimes I'll. Especially when I'm walking around if I've gotten dressed in a rush and then I come home and I have to sort of tidy up the bits that I've left behind. Sometimes while I'm tidying, I'll just put on one of the heels that I've left behind. And the idea of sort of like clomping around my house, sort of tidying in a heel. Yeah, I love.
- [38:10]
A
Yeah, it's. It's great.
- [38:12]
B
Yeah.
- [38:12]
A
Just. It changes your physiognomy with everything and completely. I have more courage than I did five minutes ago. This is definitely working.
- [38:23]
B
Yeah. My dog, Coltrane has this funny habit where when I leave the house, I come home and he takes my shoes and puts them on my bed. It's so sweet. But now I think of it as him putting the shoes that he thinks I should have worn instead of the ones that I did wear when I left the house.
- [38:42]
A
That's so good.
- [38:44]
B
And he's unbelievably strong. He's not a huge dog, but he's had like big boots. Like he's. It's sort of. It's so impressive.
- [38:54]
A
How interesting. Yeah. Support for today's show is brought to you by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. I'm not exactly an early adopter, rarely first out of the gate with new tech. You don't have to be a tech person to be curious about AI. So I teamed up with Anthropic to try Claud. I'm building a real budget for fascia neurosis. It includes paying people, planning seasons and not guessing cash flow. I opened Claude, dropped in last year's costs and sponsor forecasts and asked it to help me think. Not right for me. It turned my chaos into a zero based plan with clear buckets, production, post and marketing. It modeled best and worst case revenue. It helped me build monthly Checklists for invoices, payroll renewals, plus 10% rainy day reserve. It even flagged sneaky line items like platform fees and insurance. And if you want to see what it can do for you, you can try Claude for free at Claude AI fashionneurosis. Because you said, I've always been conscious of ways in which identity is a creation. And you have so much agility in this. And how do you anchor yourself when you're on this kind of exploration of casting an identity?
- [40:27]
B
Oh, that's interesting. I think maybe because sort of my early folks that I was interested in, you know, like Prince or Bowie, all these extraordinary people that just really play with identity, or Grace Jones or they sort of felt like partially constructions, but also they constructed the thing that is most true.
- [40:53]
A
Yeah.
- [40:54]
B
In a way.
- [40:54]
A
That's such a good point, actually.
- [40:56]
B
Yeah.
- [40:57]
A
Finding your identity by exploring some other kind of visible.
- [41:05]
B
Yeah, I think to make sort of visible fundamentally your values and your philosophy.
- [41:15]
A
Yeah.
- [41:15]
B
You know, I think maybe. What grounds? I don't know. It's interesting. I think I used to think of, particularly in relation. I mean, you know, when I'm working so often there's this idea of sort of costume, the things that you put on that indicate character. And I feel like sometimes so much of the, you know, a part of. A big part of the work of character is done with costume. But I don't think of it that way so much anymore, personally. I think I used to see, like, when I'd get ready for a red carpet, I used to think of this idea as sort of fashion as armor. And I. I don't know if that. That idea, at least for me personally, feels kind of antiquated now. In a way. I think I'm more interested with being. Not having any armor, actually.
- [42:16]
A
Yeah.
- [42:16]
B
Like having less of a boundary between myself and. And everybody else, you know. Yeah. I think that's the way that I think about it now. And I find that a lot more grounding, actually.
- [42:33]
A
Yeah, it's a really good point. It's something I've been thinking about a lot of. Allowing there to be less armor.
- [42:44]
B
Yeah.
- [42:44]
A
And just. Yeah. You might get hurt, but you also might have this wonderful connection with somebody. And that's worth it. Getting hurt is worth it for that completely.
- [42:59]
B
And because I also feel like armor implies that you're going into something that is. That is violent, where you sort of need protection. And I really understand why people might feel that way, particularly about, like a fashion space or a red carpet. I suppose it can feel that way, but I Think I'm just. I'm just more interested in tenderness.
- [43:20]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:21]
B
Than I used to be. And I find that. I find that really. Grounding.
- [43:29]
A
Yeah, it is. It's much more. It's like a million roots instead of one kind of spike that goes down in the earth.
- [43:38]
B
Yeah.
- [43:39]
A
To hold you up.
- [43:40]
B
Yeah.
- [43:42]
A
And if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attractions?
- [43:50]
B
It doesn't kill my attraction. It complicates it and it makes it more curious. Suddenly I'm sort of like, what a funny. What a funny thing. It makes me question, I suppose, the nature of my attraction in a new way. But I find it kind of charming. There are some things I really, really dislike. Like, kind of full stop, like when men wear pants that are too tight, especially around the calves and ankles. That's really challenging for me. But, you know, clothes are things that we take off. And I also find when you're attracted to somebody and you're in relationship, I don't know if you've had this or you feel this. There's sort of like a. The more that you become a unit, you kind of influence each other, you know, because suddenly, I mean, obviously you're an individual and you. And you dress for yourself, but there is a. There's a kind of consideration of the other. So typically, I find, like, when I'm really attracted to someone and them to me, there's something that kind of happens in our. In our style, collectively.
- [45:19]
A
Yeah.
- [45:20]
B
And I kind of really enjoy that. So all that to say that if I'm really attracted to someone, I assume that even if there's something that I really don't love, that they wear that, they probably won't wear it much longer.
- [45:35]
A
Yeah. Yeah, hopefully. And you just played Hedda Gabler in Nia da Costa's new film adaptation, and Your love interest, Dr. Loveborg, is a woman.
- [45:48]
B
Yeah.
- [45:48]
A
And you. You're mesmerizing in this film, and I.
- [45:52]
B
Thank you so much.
- [45:52]
A
I much preferred Loveborg as a woman. I found him a bit of a boring.
- [45:58]
B
How many times have you seen the.
- [45:59]
A
I think twice. And it's kind of. It's a real head of a part, Hedda. And how did it affect you in the rest of your life while you were. While you were making that? Because she's a real. She's such a kind of weirdo.
- [46:19]
B
Yeah, that was. That was. I had so much fun making the film. I'm not sure that I was, like, the most fun persons sometimes while I was making it. I don't know. I found it quite. Chat. It was a tough one to shake off, you know, and it felt like it permeated a lot of my energy at the time. Typically, I'm pretty good at that kind of hygiene, where if I'm playing a character that's challenging, I can have a kind of separation and leave the work and return to life. But with this particular one, I had a tough time doing that. Plus, I was living in a tiny little cottage in the middle of nowhere, so there was nothing I was coming home to except myself, frankly. And so it really allowed time just to continue down the spiral of Hedda, which I think the work required at the time. But this is a woman who really has no issue taking up space. Even just the sheer sort of circumference of the dress that I'm wearing in the piece, you know, and all of the layers of crinoline and everything underneath. You know, she's a person that walks into the room and changes the sort of frequency of it. And I think that's inhabiting, you know, that kind of energy constantly. Yeah. I think it sort of. It freed me in some ways because I think I can be very sort of, you know, conscientious and, you know, sensitive to what everyone sort of needs and how everyone's doing. And, you know, I'm someone that likes to come into a room and if I affect the energy, do so in a pleasant way. But I like to give a lot of space for the people around me, and particularly in collaboration, I think that's super important and, you know, in relational dynamics. But this is a woman that's not particularly interested in that, and I think helped me question how much of that is me or is convention. How much of that is actually, you know, fundamentally who I am, which I believe it is. But I also think there is a way in which, particularly for women, we're told that we. That we should. That we should. We should, you know, take up less space.
- [49:01]
A
Yeah. Because she's so powerful.
- [49:03]
B
Yeah.
- [49:04]
A
And that's. It must have been interesting to just. To be like that for a while, you know, to be so ruthlessly powerful.
- [49:13]
B
Yeah.
- [49:14]
A
And she's so good at it. And it's hard to control and to.
- [49:19]
B
Place someone so, like, hungry. You know, we are sort of told, you know, that feelings like jealousy or envy are kind of unsavory. And I think actually they point us in the direction of things that we want.
- [49:37]
A
Yeah. And that's really good point, actually. Yeah.
- [49:42]
B
They can be very generative feelings, actually. Not that we should act out of them, you know, But I suppose if.
- [49:50]
A
They'Re constantly, you know, shamed.
- [49:54]
B
Yeah.
- [49:55]
A
Then it's really hard to handle the feelings that you do have around jealousy and kind of wanting to be noticed and stuff like that.
- [50:06]
B
Totally. And that it's impossible to really understand what those feelings are telling you.
- [50:10]
A
Yeah.
- [50:10]
B
If you're too ashamed to admit that you have them.
- [50:13]
A
Yeah.
- [50:15]
B
You know.
- [50:17]
A
Do you have a superhero? I don't mean in a Marvel comic. Mm.
- [50:27]
B
Yeah, I have lots of superheroes. Diane Keaton just passed away, and she's always been a real superhero to me. I just remember seeing her for the first time on film when I was a child, and she really had such a childlike playfulness about her that really appealed to me as a. As a kid. And then also her great love of suits and all the fascinating, interesting things that she wore. She's just kind of so iconic and, yeah, she was always kind of a superhero to me, and I think maybe it was an early inspiration for liking suits and wanting to wear things that were sort of big and boxy and oversized and just her tremendous kind of talent and wit and singularity. Yeah.
- [51:19]
A
I was watching looking for good Mr. Goodbye recently. God, it's such a wild film. And, yeah, she's so kind of devastatingly endearing and moving and crazy and wonderful.
- [51:35]
B
Yeah, she's so captivating. Yeah, she really is.
- [51:40]
A
Well, I know you have to go now, so I'll have to say goodbye. And thank you so much for gracing the couch with your beautiful outfit. Thank you so much.
- [51:54]
B
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. This is really a joy. I love this. I love this podcast so much. It's been such a nice friend to me. So sometimes, especially in the bath.
- [52:08]
A
Oh, that's so nice.
- [52:10]
B
It's been a good bath companion. Thank you.
- [52:33]
A
Today's show is brought to you by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every conversation we have reveals something unexpected about fashion identity and culture. If today's discussion left you with questions you can't shake about someone's fashion influence, a cultural moment, or why certain pieces feel so charged with meaning, Claude can be that thinking partner who helps you follow those threads wherever they lead. Try Claude for free at Claude AI Fashionneurosis.
- [53:10]
B
Support for this show comes from notion. There's only one of you, Only so many hours, only so much focus. What if you had a teammate who could work just like you do, with all the context you have, but faster? That's what Notion AI feels like. Notion is the connected workspace where teams create, plan, track and ship together. Now with Notion Agent you can get an AI teammate that finishes the job. Notion Agent can do anything you can do in Notion completing multi step actions end to end to move work forward while you focus on hard decisions. You assign the task. Your Notion Agent does the work. Try Notion and Notion Agent for free@notion.com box.