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- [00:02]
A
Support for the show comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. There's a certain kind of person who delights in spending hours figuring something out. For them, this kind of work isn't a waste of time. It's an irresistible pursuit of the aha moment when everything clicks. And that's exactly the kind of thinking that Claude was designed to do. To skip over the easy answers and dig into the deep stuff. Try Claude for free at Claude AI fashionneurosis and see why problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Lynn Ramsey.
- [01:00]
B
I hope I don't fall asleep. This is extremely relaxing.
- [01:05]
A
You're never gonna fall asleep. Way too lively. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
- [01:17]
B
Well, I'm wearing a shirt from Prada actually, because I was at her Milan show last week and it's just nice and white and crisp and clean and super comfy. And I'm wearing a pair of Adidas trousers from Liberty. They do a collection together that are just super comfy because I sprained my ankle really badly. I need to be super comfortable. So they felt like the most comfortable things to wear today.
- [01:50]
A
And you're wearing my eye mask that I've wrapped around your foot to calm down the totally pain.
- [01:59]
B
That's my Bella Freud ankle. And it's very Vivienne Westwood as well. I'm quite liking this style, you know, it's making it feel much better.
- [02:09]
A
Oh, I'm glad. And you're a multi award winning Glaswegian filmmaker and you're an auteur, as they call it in the film world, which is the greatest compliment. And your short films from film school all won prizes. And Rat Catcher, your first feature, won numerous awards and is one of the most moving and unsentimental films I've ever seen. And how do you create so much feeling without telling people how to feel?
- [02:43]
B
Feel? I think it's about creating almost a memory, you know, almost. I. I suppose in case a Rat catcher was a landscape I was very, very familiar with and I really base it around the canal. That was always a place, a kind of. It was quite seductive, but it was quite dangerous. Like people would fall in and drown or that or you be up there with your boyfriend or, you know, it was a sort of dark, sinister but seductive kind of place. And once I saw there was a paint factory next to the canal and they used to chuck the cans of paint in. And so I remember seeing this amazing vision of these swans, you know, like just moving through this paint and making it a kaleidoscope, you know, and getting covered with the paint, you know, so it was like a. Sometimes locations, I think, for me, or it's like a portrait of a person, but there's just things I can see, I think, because I used to be a photographer and so I look at details of things and details of emotions and try and show them in a way that's maybe not the most conventional way to do it, but I don't know, instinctively works for me.
- [04:12]
A
Yeah, it works for everyone else too, because it's so affecting and people often have a strong attachment to where they come from. But somehow it happens more with Glasgow than anywhere else. And what's so powerful about identifying as Glaswegian?
- [04:36]
B
It's just a pretty extraordinary place. I mean, my friend who's Italian was there while I was in Milan, which was quite odd because she's my best friend, so she's the city of, you know, my birth and I'm in Milan, the city of Herbert. And she kept saying it looked like Gotham City. It's got this kind of crazy. It was the first grid system before New York and the buildings became black with the coal. And I don't know, it's got this kind of imposing, dark kind of majesty and also a kind of humor in it, like from the people, you know, that's dark as well, but fun, twisted and crazy. And it feels like almost like you're in the Wild west sometimes. Yeah, there's even a place called the Grand Old Opry that people go dress up in cowboy, you know, costumes and shoot guns and stuff. It's just a kind of particular city and it's. It's sort of dark and gloomy but beautiful. And, you know, in the summer it becomes this other place, you know, that, you know, this light until 12 o' clock at night. You know, you have this lightness and then you have this darkness. And I always thought it was a great place for a sci fi, but Jonathan Glazier beat me to it, you know, with under the Skin.
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A
Oh, yeah.
- [06:06]
B
God damn you, Joy Glazer. That's true.
- [06:11]
A
Because that seems to be part of the characteristics of the people I've met who are from Glasgow with this humor and also this darkness and. Yeah, this originality as well.
- [06:27]
B
Well, I read Bobby Gillespie's biography recently and it was like, yeah, not that recently, but a few years back. And it was funny how similar it was and we coming from quite a similar background and his Parents were really intellectual and communists and so there's a certain intelligence here with it as well. Even though it's pretty blue collar, working class, you know. You know, there's a sort of fierce intelligence as well. And I don't really know, I can't really put my finger on what makes Glasgow Glasgow but I've ended up going back there and I didn't think I would. I tried to escape there if anything when I was a kid, you know and you know, maybe you just escaped the place you're born. You wanted to move on, you know. But I went back there and I've sort of rediscovered it and it's. It's quite an eye opener. It's like it's become something different. It's kind of morphed into this place with great restaurants and great culture and really multicultural and I'm quite enjoying being back there really.
- [07:42]
A
That's so nice. And you're an incredibly artistic person and when you talk about ideas it's almost as though they're in 3D as you're describing them. And when did that first start?
- [07:59]
B
I think it was when I was a really young kid. I mean I used to draw the whole time. Like my mum would just say I was the best kid ever because I didn't cry, I didn't do anything. She'd just give me paper and pencils and I'd just be happy for Iris named. So I just. And it wasn't about the end result or anything, it was just the process of drawing, you know, I just found it so fascinating and then I would sort of draw things that were around me and I guess. Yeah from very early on I remember, you know, just having. Sketching the whole time and looking the whole time and my mum was relating to movies as well so I would watch Saturday matinees. Matineese and mild Pierce and things like that and I just fascinated by. Became quite fascinated by film and my family started thinking I was deaf because they be coming, I'd be watching something and say they'd be like Lynn, Lynn. And I was so into it that I didn't hear anything cuz it was a big noisy family. So it was my way of just like separating, you know, I like just going in my own world.
- [09:10]
A
Yeah, there's a great line in a Dizzy Rascal song that says a heavy bass line is my kind of silence. And I. That's such a good description.
- [09:23]
B
That's fantastic. Yeah, you know, because there was. The house was so. I mean I had like one brother, two sisters it was quite a small house, like three bedrooms, I think. And it was, you know, always bustling and noisy and, like, to fit in, like, you know, everyone's fighting to, you know, when you were in the bathroom doing your hair or something, then sisters coming and, you know, getting you out, you know, like just the fighting for a bit of space, I guess.
- [09:54]
A
Yeah.
- [09:56]
B
And so my space was, like, within all this noise, I could find a kind of silence. Like I could tune in to things and not hear anything else. And it became a kind of thing that helped me as a filmmaker because it made I could focus in a different way, even in a very noisy environment.
- [10:18]
A
And what was the garment that first changed the way you felt about yourself?
- [10:23]
B
Well, I had this T shirt that my mum had given me that had Speedy Gonzalez, the cartoon character on it. And I just thought it was fantastic. And my sister had a pair of flared trousers that had Rupert the Bear on them. And I stole them a bit, you know, like, I'd have this outfit, the Speedy Gonzalez T shirt and the Rupert the Bear flares. I think they just did a little bit of, like, just a little Rupert the Bear insignia here and then the speedy guns. And I just would not take it off. My mum couldn't get it off me. She couldn't wash it. She couldn't do anything. And every time I see a photograph of me with it on, I've got my hands up in total joy at wearing this T shirt, you know, like arms outstretched to the heavens. And I just remember never taking that T shirt off, you know, and my mum said, we really need to wash it. And so that's the first really clear memory, I suppose, a piece of clothing.
- [11:25]
A
Because children feature quite a lot in your films, and you have a way of portraying their experiences which are often on the edge of quite disturbing, as though you're in that child's body and not as the anxious parental onlooker. Do you inhabit those children?
- [11:45]
B
Yeah, I guess it's funny what people see as dark and light, because I think kids just see this kaleidoscope, you know. And I suppose the kids in my films. Rat Catcher Rat was a. Especially was a. It's a landscape I really knew. And so the horror, which. What people would see is horror. Like something like, you know, there was a refuse strike and there was rubbish all over the streets, and it was black plastic bags and there was loads of rats and crazy stuff. But I remember pulling clothes out of a bag, a black bag. You know, I think someone's grandma had died or something. You know, these 1920s hats and crazy stuff. It was like you were in a certain medieval kind of landscape, you know, but there was fun in it and intrigue, you know, so that horror, I never really saw it. I just. That just was how life was.
- [12:48]
A
Yeah, because it's such a. There's suspense, but it's a completely different kind of suspense of not really knowing what's gonna happen. And the way you made that film, you can't predict anything. And it's. Somehow it opens you up more and more to being on every moment of that journey in that film. And it really is one of my favorite films I've ever seen. It's so incredible.
- [13:25]
B
And I think it was made with real. You know, we were all a bunch of filmmakers. I'd never done anything. We were just out of film school. And I really fought to have, like, my dp, who had never shot a film before. That's a camera, really. Yeah. Like, they wouldn't. They wanted me to use people that had that more experience that. And I fought and fought to get. So every single person who made Rat Catcher was. Had never made a feature film. Like the production designer, the cameraman, the dp, the. The. The editor, none of us had made a feature film. So it was a real child by fire. But it was. And then we went up and it was a Glasgow crew who were thinking, who. Who. Who's this bunch of moronic students? Probably, you know, but there was a real purity with it, you know, because of that. It was. You know, it was a bunch of students making a film, really. And, you know, we found these amazing locations and we built a canal because you couldn't go near the water there. It was so polluted. Yeah. We had to build a canal. And I think if someone asked me to do that, I think the naivety of was, you know, because I think now someone. We have to build a canal. I'd be like, oh, my God, you can't. You know, I mean, that seems like an impossible task. Yeah, but it sets in. Rat Catcher and it's also. It's builds. And we did it. We did it in a kind of, like, naive punk kind of, we can do this kind of spirit. But it was a really. I remember I wrote it to be this. You know, it's like the hottest. A warm summer. Like, the whole thing was sun. And then it rained the whole time. It just rained and rained and rained, and there was no weather cover. And it was. It was a painful shoot, but somehow the kids in it got me through it. Because they were. They just totally loved the experience. And we shot it chronologically so that, you know, the. Every day was new for them. I never gave them the whole script. I was. So there would be. Things would be unfolded in real time. So it was really fun. The kids. If it hadn't been for the kids, I think I'd have ran a mile, you know, to be honest, because the DP and I were often like, oh my God, let's never make a feature film again. This is so stressful, you know, it's such a big deal making a film, a feature film. And so it was a real. It was a real insight into this new world and totally scary in so many ways as well, you know, I kept moving the camera away from the crew. I was like, there's too many people. Because I've been used to making short films, maybe crew of 50 maximum. And so seeing all these people and all these gaffers and people like, you know, doing light and, you know, just the amount of people you need for a film shoot, a long film shoot, I kept just taking the tripod and the camera and moving it away, kind of like running away with the camera. So it was quite. You know, it was a special experience. And when I see photographs of me at that time, because I was only like 26 or 27amongst all these kids, is a beautiful photograph where it's the crew and the kids and stuff like that. And it looks like a school photo, you know, and I look like a kid myself. And amongst these kids. And I just think it was. There was a lot of authenticity in that whole process. It was non actors. A lot of the kids never done anything before. But it was a painful process. I mean, I didn't enjoy the shoot, whereas there's some other shoots I've enjoyed more, you know, because it was almost like something so pure being ripped away into just dealing with the whole mechanisms I made. A feature film can be really, really trying, you know, like people have. When you work with people that are always, you know, you've never worked with a. You need a D, like a DP and a cameraman or a production designer that's done loads of stuff because you're not experienced yourself. And I get that. But I've made these really great shorts with this great crew of people. And I wanted to keep it intact. But everything was such a fight that it became so tiring. But the kids got me through. The kids totally got me through, you know.
- [17:58]
A
Cause how do you choose your shots? Because it's something I really notice in your films how you'll use shots of bits of people or the incidentals, and they draw you in so much. And I was just watching this documentary about Martin Scorsese by Rebecca Miller where it describes how he uses these shots because he's spent so much time looking out of his bedroom window, being stuck inside with asthma. And I. How did. How do you. How are you so sure about which shot you want to use?
- [18:37]
B
I think it's something to do with when I. Because I used to be a photographer, I studied photography, studied painting. First. I thought I'd go to art school and become a painter. Really. That's what I thought I'd really do. And maybe I still will. But I discovered a dark room when I was a kid. I was at this place called the Glasgow Art center, and it was. I had a dark room, and no one was using it, and so I ended up using it. I had the whole place to myself. Probably being pretty crappy pictures, you know, like the teenage stuff, but again to that, which brought me to film in the end. But just the way of looking at people. I like to. You know, being a photographer, like, you look at details, or you look at what's outside the frame, or you're always observing. And I think Scorsese was a photographer as well as. As was Kubrick, you know, so I came from that kind of visual background, whereas some people maybe come from theater or different ways. But to me, it's the rhythm of. Rhythm of how you put an image with an image with an image. And also what you. What you don't show.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, so I just can think of things in a very visual way, you know, And I had. I suppose it was just an ability from being a kid, you know, and just always observing. But I definitely. I mean, one of my favorite things going back to Ratcatcher is there's just one tiny detail where Jane. And it shows a lot of love between the mother and son.
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A
And.
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B
And it's basically, you know, the mother's got a stocking that's she's forever darning because she can't afford new tights. And James, the main character, sees her sleeping one time. He sees a hole in her. In her stockings, and he pulls it and pulls it as if trying mend it, you know, for her. And it's just this tiny, tiny detail of an act of love. Yeah, that spoke volumes. But it was only two shots, you know.
- [20:43]
A
God.
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B
So. And even one maybe, you know, so it's nice to think about, maybe quite prosaic ideas sometimes in quite an economical way. And also you were never really here. I didn't have a lot. A lot of time to. To shoot that film. And there was a sequence which I thought would be a big action sequence. And I ended up shooting it as like with surveillance cameras.
- [21:11]
A
God, really.
- [21:12]
B
And it was. And that was like, you know. You know, basically a necessity. Cuz I had no time to shoot it. I couldn't do a big balletic action sequence. And yet it gave it something as. That was super original. Because the violence is so mechanical. A lot of it's off screen. So a lot of the time people will say that's such a violent film. But actually there's no violence in the film. It's all off screen. And I think that they just the way your brain reacts to it does feel violent. You know, it's what you didn't see. The piece of the picture that you put together in your head becomes quite scary, you know. So it made me laugh a lot when people said that was such a violent film because it's like there's really. You're showing almost nothing.
- [22:04]
A
Support for the show comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude. We've all become so accustomed to getting instant answers to any question that crosses our minds, which is understandable. We've all had access to search engines for decades now. But often search engines will trade depth for expediency. And the answers you're given can be incomplete or compromised by advertisers. That's what sets Claude apart. Claud isn't interested in giving you quick and easy answers. When you ask it a question, it's prepared to get into the why with you. To dig deeper and follow you down rabbit holes. What's more is that Claude can also support you with the kind of admin tasks that are tedious to complete on your own. Which is how I prefer to use Claude. It helps me with things like cleaning up a cluttered inbox or summarising meeting notes or synthesizing a plan of action when I want to get started on a new project. In that way, Claude is more like an ally than a simple search engine. Try Claude for free@claude aifashionneurosis and see why problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Yeah, because I was reading about how you. You brought that film forward and. And you seem to be able to make films in very chaotic circumstances. And on the first day when the crew was setting up, you said you just grabbed the camera. And then Joachim Phoenix said, are we Filming. And you said, yes. And do you feel more in control in a way, when things are out of control around you?
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B
I don't know. Possibly. I mean, making films is so chaotic anyhow. Something always happens that you don't expect. So I think I do work well in environments where I've kind of like. You've literally got a gun in your head and you have to make a decision. Whereas when I'm in just a normal life, I'd be like, you know, oh, you know, I'm in a restaurant, it'll take me ages to make a decision, you know. But in film, it's like. It's just this kind of total instinct that you're going in. Instinct. And. Yeah, it's true. You. When I really hear that, I just started shooting, really, and everyone was running. Because the first day, you're. Normally people are just getting up to speed, speeds, and it's a bit slower and it's a bit. And it. I think that really broke the ice between us two, Joaquim and I, because he loves moving fast as well. He doesn't like hanging around too much. He. And I think he started laughing when he. When I was. He was like, you joking? Right, we're shooting now. And I was like, yeah, we're going. Literally turned up, get out the car, set the camera up and started shooting. And even the same man, people were running and you know, like, what. What the heck's going on? We're doing. We're just shooting normally with. It just literally turned up and set it started shooting and. But I think that really made our relationship quite special because he saw the way I was working and I saw the way he was working and it. It really was one of the most special times I've ever had being an actor, because over the period of the film, it just became a bond. It was like there was a real bond. It was like a real, I think, mutual respect, you know, or a way of working that we both were similar.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because I met you first when you wore one of my suits to the baftas and you told me you'd had a T shirt when you were a teenager. I think, saying whatever.
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B
Yes.
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A
And was fashion a thing in your household?
- [26:02]
B
Well, yeah, it was, actually. I mean, I had two sisters and I mean, I used to like to make things, you know, I would. We didn't have a lot of money. My mum was a cleaner, you know, so. But she would take us out every month, one of us and buy us an outfit.
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A
Wow.
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B
But I used to do Things like find bandages and made a hat out of them wrapped around my head. Or went in my Selfridges and bought a bikini bottom and made it into a hat, you know, with an elastic band and just do these kind of, well, things or send away for Doc Martens or, you know, or I would tie dye stuff with my brother's Airfix paints, you know, and put them in the bath and then make, you know, put T shirts on top of them and stuff like that to make patterns. Then my mum would go absolutely crazy because the bath was all covered with oil paint, you know, so. But I remember I got quite a lot of memories, like sending away for the first Doc Martens. You couldn't get them in Glasgow, seeing there was a style for a while in Glasgow which was kind of copies of Burberry type trench coats. And I remember begging my mum to please get me one of these name. Then we eventually went, and I went with my older sister as well, who always saw me as this little kid. She's like, you can't get her that you've got. And I came back really ankle socks and a pair of sandals, crying my eyes out that I never got this Burberry type trench coat. But my mom would like, do things like she would buy. I remember she bought me this, we went together, but a mint green miniskirt. I was a mod for a while, like when I was about 11 and then I was in Iska and stuff. And it was a mint green mini skirt with a kind of Mary Quant plastic belt with the circle.
- [28:00]
A
Yeah.
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B
And this strange shirt that went with it was multicolored, almost like a Hawaiian shirt. And me being the coolest at the disco and, you know, in my little Maud outfit.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so my mum was really kind in that way that she would, like, make sure you were treated down again, even if she didn't have a lot of money, you know, because my dad was away a lot and he was like, you know, I mean, she was really making ends meet as much as she could, but she still made this time to treat us all. But I used to look quite different. At one point I changed my style at school and I used to. Used to borrow my older sister's clothes and she'd like leather trousers and things like that. The 80s were baggy leather trousers and things like that and she'd go crazy. But then I discovered alternative music and I was into the Smiths and stuff like that and the Cure and the Human League and, you know, and I ends up shaving all My hair at the back and making it a perm, like. But it looked like a kind of 1920s bob. And wearing black plimsoles and kickback skirts and, you know, just having my own style, really. And people at school going, you used to look so good. Look at you. You look terrible now, you know. Cause I had my own thing going down, you know, But I just feel it wasn't a school you wore a uniform at. So I used to be really vintage about what I was wearing or finding things or, you know, just making the best of what we had, but making it into something different or whatever, you know. So the hat making went on for a while. Yeah.
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A
And how is your transition from girlhood to woman? Was your mum supportive of you during that phase or who in your family looked out for you while you were going through that?
- [30:01]
B
Oh, good. Well, it was. I mean, it wasn't my sisters because they were always. Everyone was always fighting over clothes or something, you know, and it was a set of hierarchy. So it's probably my mum, more or less, you know, and probably music plays a big part. My brothers. I used to listen. He listened to Pink Floyd and B52s and things like that. And I just. It was really. Music made a big impression, you know, and my dad was really into music as well, which was great. But I think my mum was. I was the most close to. Really? Yeah. She used to laugh at some of the things that. Outfits I'd wear.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But she thought it was. I know she thought I was inventive because I can, you know, I start some fashion at school or something, you know, like, people would laugh at me. Then before you knew, there was people wearing the same thing.
- [30:59]
A
How that's so satisfying. And your short film Gas man won a bafta and it starred your brother James, who later committed suicide. And what was he like?
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B
Oh, he was beautiful. Super sensitive. He was never quite of this world. He was always super sensitive. I remember he had this collection of birds, eggs. So he was stealing the eggs from the nest, which is pretty terrible. But he had these desks where they were full of straw and they were all labeled in this beautiful copper plate writing all the different eggs. And then one time he blew. You could make a hole to get the egg, you know, and so he blew it out to blow the yolk out. There was a tiny little chick and he started crying and he never did it again because I think before he never encountered that. But he looked like, I mean, a young De Niro, really, or, you know, but with very blue Eyes. He was very charismatic on the film. He's in quite a lot of my films.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But just picked up on vibes from people. He was a real sensitive soul, and I think he just couldn't really go cope with the world. And yet, you know, it was like, you know, when people are empaths, you know.
- [32:19]
A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
And I think you have to be, to a degree, do what we do as well. You need to be empathetic. You need to get the temperature of people or a room. And he just had that, like, to the extraordinary degree, you know, and it certainly has helped me as a filmmaker just to read people and be sensitive and stuff, but I think it brought him a lot of pain in the end, you know, he could kind of feel people's pain.
- [32:46]
A
Yeah. Too much.
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B
Yeah, too much. It was just too much. It was almost thought. It was almost like he wasn't really meant to be here, you know? You know, So I really, really miss him. But, yeah, just an extraordinary person, extraordinary intelligence. Had these issues and things with drugs and different things, but was trying always to get out of that and, you know, get sucked into a bit. The Glasgow heroin scene when it. Because it was a really crazy time where there was so many people that were dying and half the people I know from school are dead because of heroin.
- [33:29]
A
Yeah, it was a real epidemic.
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B
It was a super epidemic. And aids as well, because I shared needles, you know, so it was quite a dark time, to be honest. And he sucked into that. You know, I often wondered if I'd have been a heroin addict if it hadn't been for him, because I remember as a child, I was sketching him and he looked like he'd fallen asleep, but he'd actually overdosed. And he started turning blue. And I didn't know what to do. Sasta. My instinct was to walk him or. And I'm walking down the street in this little housing scheme with my brother on my back, basically, and people are going, hello. And they're. But they're not doing anything. It was so kind of like, I don't want to be like that, you know, and so, in a way, he saved my life, you know, because everybody was doing it. Everybody.
- [34:18]
A
Yeah. Yeah, he was. I must say, he was a brilliant actor. And I mean, he's such a. He's so beautiful in Gas Man. It's so powerful and moving.
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B
Yeah. I mean, in a different life, I think he's been a really, really major actor. I mean, he was in gangs in New York, and he was in a few kel. Loach films and. But he just was lost to drugs and lost to this kind of sensitivity that was almost too much for him, you know.
- [34:48]
A
Yeah. Because when I was thinking about. Because you've talked about him a lot and thinking how, oh, I think you
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B
would have loved him.
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A
Yeah, yeah, I think so. And how you survived and he didn't.
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B
Yeah,
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A
that's so.
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B
Yeah, I think about him often, actually.
- [35:13]
A
Yeah.
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B
But yeah, there was this time in my youth that was basically, you know, Irving Welsh gets it pretty right. There was a time that was just like it was this epidemic, you know, and a lot of people, just young people died. So I suppose thinking back, you know, during my teenage years, it was that kind of hanging over the whole city as well, you know,
- [35:45]
A
because also you've said, people have said you have a reputation for being difficult and you've actually gone through some really difficult times. And do you think that accusation is something more easily leveled at women rather than men directors?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I think I said that in a flippant kind of manner and they made it the headline, you know, like, people love to do stuff like that.
- [36:11]
A
Yeah.
- [36:13]
B
And it's actually been quite a nice interview and I'm actually probably one of the least difficult filmmakers to work with. I mean, I love my crew, I love the actors. I tend to make it quite a nice, tight and enjoyable place to be. But yeah, I think to the latter part of your question, it's like if you're single minded nephew, you know, to be a director, it's in the job description really, you know, like you have to be directing, you know.
- [36:46]
A
Yeah.
- [36:46]
B
You need to have a point of view. You need to know what you want to do. And I think sometimes I've heard stories which make your toes curl about something a guy's done.
- [36:57]
A
Yeah.
- [36:58]
B
And yeah, it's all like, oh well, he's a genius, you know. So I think maybe there is more pressure on women. Like, you know, or is still the remnants have been frowned upon to be a director, you know.
- [37:13]
A
Yeah, it is a bit of a.
- [37:14]
B
It's a bit like getting out with a guy who just can't handle, you know, women being in control. It's like being in a relationship like that sometimes, you know, I mean when
- [37:25]
A
you read about France, Ford, Coppola and Easy Riders, Raging Bull, the making of Apocalypse now, which is one of my favorite films ever.
- [37:35]
B
I love it.
- [37:36]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's so insane.
- [37:38]
B
Yeah.
- [37:38]
A
The things that.
- [37:40]
B
Yeah. I can't imagine a woman today getting away with some, some of that stuff.
- [37:45]
A
You know, something like having spaghetti bolognese flown over from America to the Philippines.
- [37:51]
B
Yeah. You know, that would just been seen as super indulgent, you know, But, I mean, I think times are changing, but not as much as you think, you know, not as quickly as they should
- [38:04]
A
be, because actors love to work with you. And you've worked with some incredible people, you know, apart from Joaquin Phoenix and Nick Nolte and Cissy Spacek and Tilda Swinton and then most recently, Jennifer Lawrence. And how do you cast your films?
- [38:25]
B
I think it's. Again, it's through meeting people, really. I don't. I've never cast anything on Zoom. I mean, some people do that now, and I just don't understand it at all. I think it's meeting people, feeling what the vibe is like between you. Jennifer got in touch with me. She. It was very cool speaking to her via email. And we zoomed and. And we spoke about it for a year, you know, and then Joaquim, I spoke to him over the telephone when I was in Greece, and he now claims he understood about, like, 10% of what I was saying, and that's why he agreed. But he. I don't know that that. I mean, it never happens overnight. It takes a while, you know, Tilda, you know, she really loved wanting to do Kevin. I thought maybe Eva, the main character in Kevin, should be. And what everyday women. Whereas Tilda's quite extraordinary.
- [39:25]
A
Yeah, she sure is.
- [39:26]
B
But actually, then she took. She took me for lunch or dinner or something like that, and she goes, no, I'll tell you why, you know, she should be extraordinary because everyone's gonna notice her, you know.
- [39:35]
A
Yeah.
- [39:36]
B
And I thought, that's a bloody good point, you know, and plus, she's amazing. And so she said she wanted to do that. You know, she always took me by the scuff of the neck a little bit and was like, no, let's do this together, you know?
- [39:51]
A
Yeah, she does that, doesn't she?
- [39:53]
B
Yeah, she's got a willpower and a determination, and I really love working with her, you know, we'd love to work with her again. And I'm friends with a lot of the actors. I spoke to Samantha Morton this morning. Samantha Morton? Samantha Morton, too, you know, who was in Morvankhalen. And we were just talking about maybe talking about another film again next week, you know, she's got an idea and she wants to meet up, you know. You know, but we're still been in contact since I was 26, you know, really. So, you know, I'VE known her so long and I still speak to wake. I still speak to Jennifer and Robert. You know, I actually owe Cissy space. I can email her, she's expecting one from. So I tend to keep in touch with the people I worked with that I enjoyed working with. Joyce Riley as well. He was amazing. So I'm kind of in touch with them all, you know, because you have such a close relationship when you make a film, it is a bond, you know, and I think we've made some special work together.
- [40:55]
A
Yeah, I mean they. There's such a strong feeling of intimacy in your films. It's hard to imagine sort of just forgetting that and moving on to the.
- [41:06]
B
Yeah, well, films are very weird. Like you spend this amount of time with people and it's very intense and that's why a lot of people have affairs on Flint film sets. It's so intense and then when it gets to the end, it's almost like you almost feel really blue, you know, you feel really like, oh my gosh, is that it? You know, because you've been so welded together for this intense period of time.
- [41:34]
A
Yeah,
- [41:37]
B
I always get quite sad at the end of film shoots, even if I'm really tired, hoping it will finish, you know,
- [41:47]
A
it's often said that creative people are not the best at managing business. We may know what we want, but we don't always know how to get it done. This is where I use Claude not to have ideas for me, but but to help me navigate the administrative tedium of bringing my ideas to life. My inbox is full of unread emails. This is my system for reminding myself of things left to do. Claude looks at my inbox and my calendar and tells me what needs my attention and what can safely be ignored. Before meetings, Claude reads long email threads so I don't have to pretend I can remember everything. Everything. Claude helps me keep track of what I said I'd do, what I've already done and what everyone else has quietly forgotten. And when I'm working on a project, I can give Claude some context and it helps me sort through my ideas and prioritize the order of things. To me, Claude feels less like a tool and more like an authoritative ally. I can spend more time thinking, listening and making decisions and less time managing chaos. Try it for yourself@claude aIfashionneurosis. And is the edit process like a sort of. Almost like a very slow come down so you can re engage and then start to shape it and start to detach from the emotional intensity?
- [43:22]
B
Yeah, I Get. I guess so. It's. It's. Editing is really where you're making the movies. It's as close to direction as you can get. Like, editors are, you know, and. But there's so many avenues you can take. It's. It's a real conundrum. And sometimes even after an edit, you'll. You'll get the idea after. Later you're like, oh. Because a lot of the time it's thinking time, you know, it's not about the dude time. Once you know what you're doing that, you can do that pretty quickly. But often it's just watching the rushes and considering the material and really, really thinking. So sometimes I felt like I wanted more time for that, you know, and sometimes I felt like, you know, had great edits, and then sometimes I've had terrible edits because maybe the financier didn't like the cuts or whatever. But it's quite a crazy process. And funnily enough, I just reconnected with the first editor I ever worked with who'd done Ratcatcher and really. Morvyn Kaller. Lucia Zucchetti.
- [44:20]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [44:21]
B
And she lives quite nearby. And honestly, it was like as if we never left each other because she's like my best friend as well. And that became a bit hard working together, you know, sometimes, like, weren't your best friend can be great and terrible at the same time. But you know what? Me and her just gel and bond. And I really, really wanted to do my next film with her because we've got a rhythm, you know. She's very different from me. Yeah, she's. You know, and I think that made me really happy again, to reconnect with her, you know, but the editing is a really. It's a strange process because I often think, like, maybe a year later I'll go, shit, should have done that. You know, really. Or that scene. I didn't add it or actually read. And I've never reshot anything. That's the thing. I mean, a lot of people get the. The. You know, the. That's quite normal luxury, reshooting. But I've never had that. So I'm always, like, thinking in my feet, doing it as quickly as I can. Yeah. But, yeah, sometimes you think you missed something, or sometimes you get an idea much later in the. The day, but you've just got a. They're all like babies, you know, that you're. You're still thinking about them years later. Strange, you know. You know, you're still thinking about how you could have Done this maybe differently, you know, but you also, you know, in the next one.
- [45:50]
A
And how do you make someone attractive in a film?
- [45:54]
B
Well, sometimes I make them unattractive, but in a way that's attractive, I think. I mean, for instance, Jennifer Lawrence's role in, you know, Die, My Love, she. You don't know how she's going to react from one time to another, you know, and she can be like. She say things that are so off the cuff that it could seem, you know, she could be unlikable for that, you know, or she can just seem totally out there. But she's always got this humor and this beauty that brings you back, you know, there's an honesty in it, you know, and then only stay in her character that I think brings you back to her, you know, so you. I mean, I always work with flawed characters. I don't think I've ever made a film that doesn't have flawed characters in it, you know.
- [46:43]
A
And you're very involved in the music in your films, and you can write songs and sing. And in Die My Love, your new film, you actually sing the last track, Love Will Tear Us Apart.
- [46:56]
B
Yeah.
- [46:56]
A
And did you ever think of being in a band before you became a filmmaker?
- [47:01]
B
Oh, because I'd much rather be in a band. I couldn't imagine I really would have been a band. It would be a hell of a lot. Funnily enough, I've been talking to Bobby Gillespie recently about maybe, you know, doing some stuff together, you know, because he saw the film and he liked. I wrote some lyrics for another song and he recorded it, and it was really sweet of him. You know, I really like writing songs because they're much faster than films, you know. I mean, the Love of Will Tears Apart cover just came out of me singing it down the phone, saying, really, Maybe we use something like that. But I didn't think it would be in the movie, and I still probably would change it because if I had my way, you know, like, the music supervisor, Ralph Birchill at the time was like, this is brilliant. This is brilliant. But also liked the. There was a cover like Jennifer singing the Beast in Me that I liked as well.
- [47:56]
A
Oh, wow.
- [47:57]
B
So I still like to revisit things in the music, but. But yeah, I do love music. I've. You know, and I think maybe when I was younger, I was maybe not hanging around with the right people or too shy to be in a band, but I think now I would definitely like to write songs for other people. Yeah, it's a lot quicker than making A movie. It's like a Polaroid. It's like a Polar. You did a Polaroid instead of doing a tiny camera photograph, you know, So I love that spontaneity.
- [48:31]
A
You're really good at it. I remember you calling me up once and saying, I've written a song for you. It's Bella, Bella I don't need a fella because I've got Bella.
- [48:45]
B
Oh, my God, I completely forgot about that. That's hilarious.
- [48:48]
A
I've never forgotten that.
- [48:49]
B
Oh, that is so funny. So good.
- [48:51]
A
Yeah.
- [48:52]
B
Okay. Put them all together. You know, so great.
- [48:57]
A
That is hilarious because in Di My Love, Jennifer Lawrence plays a woman spiraling sort of after she's had a baby and.
- [49:07]
B
Yeah.
- [49:08]
A
Some kind of postpartum psychosis. And she's got this little baby and you think, is something gonna. You know, is she gonna harm this child? And she's actually a really protective mother. And it keeps you in this understanding of and sympathy of her deterioration. And so you don't withdraw your loyalty to her character. And how did you know how far you could go with that portrait?
- [49:38]
B
Well, it was a difficult one, you know, definitely. Like, it's based on a book by writer called Ariana Hardwitch. And it was quite a surreal novel. But also at times you were thinking, I really want to go with this main character because she's so out there. But also the one thing that was so powerful in it, I thought made it super special, and I think that's what Scorsese saw in it as well, was that you never felt like you were apologizing for this character or over expl. You know, that she was never the victim, you know, and I love that. And also that she was. She was a bit of a punk herself. Like, she'd be. She'd say the things that you really want to say, you know, but, you know, but for fear, don't say them. You know, she was. There was a kind of authenticity and honesty to this character as well, within her madness.
- [50:36]
A
Yeah.
- [50:37]
B
Which I thought was really extraordinary. And I hadn't seen him film before. And so the closest we thought was maybe a woman under the influence or something like that, which is an extraordinary film. But she really, I think, human. I mean, Jennifer really humanized Grace so much with humor. Yeah, she's just a natural comedian. She's naturally. Her timing of things is funny. And, you know, if ever recut that film, there's again, I've got to put some extras in that film and stuff. There's some crazy stuff where, you know, even before she throws herself through that glass plate window. There's a bit of her dancing, you know, and it's just brilliant, you know. And I often think there's just always moments of humor that I still often interject, you know, when I'm at 18, I'm recutting things, you know, so we'll see, you know. But she just brought. She was on it, in it. We'd spoken about it before and she just was there. It's the same as Joaquin, you know, he came two months before the shoot. Yeah. Like who? Like sometimes the actors turned up the day before, but he came two months before the shoot. And I was like, oh my God, I haven't even recorded the locations. I was terrified, to be honest. But the more and more we talked, the more and more we got it. And the more and more he got me, you know, I think at first, the first time he met me probably thought, oh my God, she's such, you know, like, this is such a dumb conversation. Because I was like, I didn't know what he'd say to him. I was like quite intimidated by him and I was like, are you left handed? Are you right handed? It's like, gah.
- [52:15]
A
You know, those are great questions. They're quite sort of.
- [52:18]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:19]
A
Grounding questions.
- [52:21]
B
She probably think, what the heck, you know. Yeah. But we, we, we ended up living like a couple of like, like a block away from each other in New York. And I'm running around in the middle of the night with a computer going, hey, I've got this idea, you know, and he had ideas as well.
- [52:38]
A
Yeah.
- [52:39]
B
And it just made it brilliant. I mean, it was one of the most interesting experiences I've ever had working with an actor, working with him, you know, because what he, he brought a lot, you know, But I think if you've done a lot of prep with an actor, then you really can. The shootings, the gathering, the material, that you don't need to start directing them. You do millions of different things because you've already really made that happen in prep, you know, and that's certainly how I felt with Jennifer. We talked about it in prep and she just was on it. She was doing single takes, you know, So I didn't need to say it'll do it differently because she was there, you know, so because of that, we'd spoken about it.
- [53:23]
A
Yeah, she was absolutely amazing. I mean, but I mean, I've heard you talk about ideas and you know, something very simple and suddenly you've made it into this, you know, when you Use this word kaleidoscope. And you do that and you have these. All these other visions for how it could be done and what you could do with it. And it's. When you. When you were like bringing up Joaquin in the middle of the night, did he just love that?
- [53:56]
B
Yeah, he's the kind of weirdo that would be up in the middle of the night anyway. Yeah, he did, actually. I think he loves dedication, you know, he's super dedicated. He's super. You know, not many actors are going to come that early. He has to be in it. So he. I think that made us bond a lot, you know, because he knew that I was, you know, it was in. Both of us were thinking about it all the time, you know.
- [54:24]
A
God, so much fun.
- [54:26]
B
Yeah.
- [54:28]
A
There's a great picture of you wearing white socks with black patent Mary Jane shoes. And how do you like to dress for the red carpet?
- [54:39]
B
Well, I think you've got to feel comfortable, you know, like you've got to feel you. And sometimes, you know, people can give you clothes and. Yeah, but that doesn't mean you need to wear them, you know, you have to, I think. I mean, there was one time I was voted worst dressed at BAFTA because something appeared with this purple dress. Like they said they were going to make me a dress and I felt obligated to wear it and it just wasn't nice on me, you know. And I had a Vivian Westwood dress. It was much lovelier, you know. Yeah. And so as well as not winning the BAFTA that night, my mum got getting sick at the BAFTAs and then. And not getting on me with my mother in law kind of type, you know. Then I was voted worst dress as well. So it was a pretty bad night. But from then on, and I thought, I'll never ever wear anything that anybody just, you know, for obligation, you know. And I always feel much more comfortable wearing what I like to wear, what looks good to me. I went to the Golden Globes recently and I wore a $15, like, you know, net skirt with a corset under it, you know, and then a kimono underneath it and then this beautiful Prada coat, you know, So I mixed it up and made it my own.
- [55:55]
A
Yeah.
- [55:56]
B
And so to me, it's like finding that just something you really like, you know, and that was a real lesson after being, you know, wearing something that was so hideous on me, you know.
- [56:08]
A
Yeah.
- [56:08]
B
And I felt that I should wear because a lot of the time I think people are getting clothes and they feel that they've got to Wear them? Yeah, or they're. It's part of that designer or whatever. But I always kind of try and subvert it and make it mine.
- [56:22]
A
So important because when you wear something wrong, you never forget it. It's the thing you remember. I find your whole life wearing that thing and it haunts you. It's so. It's like someone's put a spell on you almost.
- [56:37]
B
Yeah. It was the headiest thing I wore because I felt I should do. And I was a bit. I was quite young, you know, so it was. And I knew that someone had went through all the trouble of making this dress, but it was hideous and I should never have worn it and I'm never ever going to do anything like that ever again, you know. So I think it's about not just that it has to be a designer thing or anything like that. I like things I find, you know, finding Portobello Market, you know, or the coolest things are mixing it up a bit, you know. Yeah, but I've got moans still and I think that that's the one time I went against it and yeah, I was voted worst dressed at the baftas.
- [57:14]
A
Such a stupid idea.
- [57:17]
B
One of the worst years.
- [57:20]
A
And if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?
- [57:26]
B
It can do a bit. I mean there's a guy I quite like, you know, but he's very proper, you know, wears like three piece suits and stuff like that. Maybe he's too proper, you know. You know, but I don't know if it totally kills it. But if it's. Yeah, it depends, you know, if they're wearing really terrible shoes or something like that. Probably. I know that sounds extremely shallow that I probably think. I'm not quite sure. You don't if you get good taste or not, you know.
- [57:58]
A
What's wrong with the three piece suit? Is it the. Is it the suit?
- [58:02]
B
Oh, I love three pieces. I absolutely love three repeats. It just. It's almost too buttoned up. He's a business guy so it's like probably made somewhere really beautiful, you know, like handmade and stuff. But he's a bit buttoned up, he's a bit of a business guy. Whereas someone else wear a three piece. That can really do it. Because I love free. I actually love them and I love them. I mean I love your three piece suits and I just love suits, you know. But he sometime he seems like a business guy. So it's almost too tight. Too buttoned up.
- [58:36]
A
Too tight I think is a bit Unless you're sort of like Jimmy or something, you know.
- [58:43]
B
Yeah.
- [58:44]
A
Like, you know, lanky and sort of languid.
- [58:47]
B
Yeah. But so almost it's been made in Germain street and, you know, German Street. Yeah.
- [58:56]
A
Yeah.
- [58:57]
B
Which is beautiful. I love that, you know, but, yeah, maybe too buttoned up, you know, because he is a business guy, you know.
- [59:03]
A
Yeah. I'm intrigued.
- [59:07]
B
I'll tell you later.
- [59:10]
A
And if you're feeling low, are there certain clothes that make you feel better?
- [59:14]
B
Oh, for sure, yeah. Color. I love color. You know, I got this coat recently and it's like, you know, one of those let's. Cobalt blue or a Paul Clay blue or, you know, and just that color, it just makes me, you know, especially if you wear it with yellow or red.
- [59:33]
A
Wow.
- [59:34]
B
It just is such. It makes me happy. Yeah. Like, color can really make me happy. And also, I think feeling. Not feeling too buttoned up as well. Like, feeling, you know, like you can chill out enclosed. It's nice, you know, I love pajamas. I'm a big pajama fan. Yeah.
- [59:53]
A
Do you find that the colorfulness in the clothes kind of brings up your mood?
- [59:59]
B
Oh, for sure, definitely. I love mixing colors. I love, you know, when you have a. Like a clashing color sometimes I just. I just really like that. I love colors and paintings like Kandinsky and, you know, like, you know, just colors that jump, you know, leap. Sometimes they just make me feel happier, you know? Yeah. I do think color just can lift you so much, you know?
- [60:28]
A
Yeah. I like to disappear into black at any chance, really?
- [60:32]
B
No, but a black can be great as well. Disappearing into black can be fantastic. I disappeared into black for many years and then I thought, ooh, color. A light color. So maybe it's just what suits you at that time.
- [60:45]
A
Yeah, true.
- [60:47]
B
I feel like disappearing into black again soon because I went through a mad colour phase.
- [60:52]
A
You know, Black is the best colour, really, isn't it?
- [60:56]
B
Well, yeah. I mean, black is. It, you know, wrap up in black.
- [61:04]
A
And Martin Scorsese was a producer on Die My Love. How did that come about?
- [61:10]
B
Well, he'd read the book before I had, and then I didn't know that, actually. And then he sent it to Jennifer and said, oh, I think you might. This is interesting for you. Then she thought about directors and thought I'd be interested for it. And so it was in Martin Scorsese's book club. I didn't know Martin Scorsese had a book club. And I'd like to be part of his book club, to be quite frank, but he's an extraordinary man. He's so amazing. He's shooting right now with Jennifer actually. Really? Yeah, he's making a film right now with Jennifer and Leonardo DiCaprio in Poland, you know, and a lot of the crew in it. But no, just what a warm, amazing guy. So knowledgeable. And so we, you know, it was. He just thought I was a good fit and she thought I was a good fit. You know, the conversations we ever had were out and like, you know, when he could be helpful or you know, what he wanted, we thought if I could ask him anything, you know. But he never intruded at all upon my process. He just was like, it's a really cool film. Yeah.
- [62:21]
A
And what did you ask him?
- [62:23]
B
I asked him things like do you think that scene works? Or whatever. And he was like, yeah, I mean he was really. He wasn't in my face. You know, if I felt a little bit of doubt about something, I would ask him something. But at the same time I think he thought it worked, you know, so he was never like, you should do this or you should do that. Not that kind of guy at all. You know. He's a really respectful filmmaker, you know. And I saw that he really liked Joanna. I saw the Souvenir two the other day. It was like I hadn't seen that.
- [62:51]
A
Yeah, it's great.
- [62:52]
B
He's a real supporter of Joanna Hogg as well. And it was really nice to see that film and see what he likes about her. Work's really interesting as well. I really liked it. It, you know, and so just a supportive presence really, you know, and amazing filmmaker. You like pinching yourself when you meet him thinking, God, I'm just hanging out with Scorsese, you know.
- [63:14]
A
I just watched this five part series by. Made by Rebecca Miller.
- [63:20]
B
I've seen that. Is it called Mr. Scorsese? Yes, it's absolutely tremendous. It's inside.
- [63:26]
A
Good. It's really stayed with me. I'm. It's such. It's like an ed. It's like going to university. Just about having kind of refining your ideas and having confidence and exploring.
- [63:40]
B
Totally super inspired.
- [63:42]
A
So interesting. And all his. All his ups and downs and yeah,
- [63:48]
B
he's so human, you know, he's so human where he's been and personally identify with so much of it and I find it totally enthralling watching that.
- [63:58]
A
Yeah.
- [63:58]
B
Cuz like it, it's. He's showing the really unvarnished way how it is even if you're Martin Scorsese making movies and it's. It's hardcore, you know, it's hardcore. And you come across all this stuff. You've got to deal with that. That hits the fan, you know, and you. You know, it was just really inspiring seeing the. Him. Even if you think it's Martin Scorsese had all this stuff, these. Had to cope with. Yeah, it was fascinating.
- [64:29]
A
Did he give you. Leave you with anything that you've kind of carried with you?
- [64:35]
B
I don't know, just to be that gracious, you know, to another filmmaker. He's got true grace, you know. And also how, you know, he said he's 80s and he said he's still. He's so energetic and he's so talented. And that's not going away anywhere soon, you know. And it was just the inspiration of thinking, you know, I don't need to retire. You can keep going. Look at Agnes Varda.
- [65:02]
A
Yeah.
- [65:03]
B
Look at Martin Scorsese, you know, like, you know, it's. It's one of those professions that. It's a vocation, you know, really.
- [65:12]
A
It's life.
- [65:13]
B
Yeah, it's life, you know, and it's something that makes me feel quite happy about that.
- [65:17]
A
Yeah. I completely.
- [65:18]
B
Rather than think, no, here's the end of the, you know, your job or something, and this is what you do now. Know that it's not like that, you know?
- [65:26]
A
No. My gratitude.
- [65:27]
B
I feel gratitude for that.
- [65:29]
A
Yeah.
- [65:29]
B
Yeah.
- [65:30]
A
I feel that's. That's how I want to go out.
- [65:33]
B
Me too.
- [65:35]
A
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Lynn Ramsey, for being on Fashion Show Neurosis. You're great inspiration to me and you always have been and. And a great friend. And thank you so much.
- [65:47]
B
Thank you, Bella Freud. Yeah, that was really, really lovely and very relaxing. Thank you.
- [66:12]
A
Thanks again to Anthropic, the team behind Claude for supporting this show. Claude is the AI for people who want a thinking partner, people who aren't satisfied with good enough, but instead want to understand the why of the thing more than just getting a simple answer. If that sounds like you, you can try Claude for free at Claud AI fashionneurosis.