Thom Browne

Summary

Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud

Episode: Thom Browne
Date: April 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this intimate and wide-ranging conversation, fashion designer Thom Browne joins Bella Freud “on the couch” to explore the interplay between fashion, identity, routine, and individuality. The episode delves deep into the notion of the uniform—both as clothing and as psychological armor—and how Browne continuously challenges norms and expectations through proportion, emotion, and the subversion of classic American style. Personal anecdotes, cultural reflections, and an examination of melancholy beauty in design make for a nuanced, insightful discussion that moves far beyond the surface of what we wear.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Thom Browne’s Personal Uniform & Approach to Dressing

• Daily Dress as Uniform/Armor
  • Thom describes his consistent daily outfit: tailored jacket, shorts, wool vest, tie, socks, and his own shoes and underwear.

    "I could get dressed in the dark, you know, basically wear the same thing every day. And yeah, it's, it's my, I guess my uniform, my armor, and I like not having to think, think about it in the morning." — Thom Browne [01:24]

• The Uniform as Identity and Freedom
  • For Browne, not caring about clothes paradoxically becomes a form of self-definition.

    “Because I don’t really care that much about clothes, you know, especially the clothes that I wear, other than I like them really well made, but I don’t like to think about them so much. And I think there’s a little bit of that that I have from my father.” — Thom Browne [08:20]

The French Embrace: Being Welcomed by Paris

• Fantasy and Storytelling as Artistic Foundations
  • Browne values being linked with “fantasy,” an element at the heart of his designs:

    “I love hearing that, you know, the word fantasy with my work because I love that side of what I do. I love the storytelling and I love that people appreciate that side.” — Thom Browne [02:26]

• Paris & Quality Appreciation
  • He shares the significance of Paris for designers and the importance of quality in French culture.

    “I think they really appreciate true design and quality and I think, you know, it’s so cultural for them and I think that's what makes it so important.” — Thom Browne [03:40]

The Power and Paradox of Uniforms

• Uniforms as Catalysts for Individuality
  • Thom discusses how uniforms actually accentuate individuality:

    “I love the idea of uniformity and how it does make somebody look so much more interesting and so much more of an individual...you do see, you know, what does really make them the person that they are.” — Thom Browne [15:40]

Designing with Proportion: Subverting and Empowering

• Against ‘Coolness’: The Intentionally Awkward Fit
  • Browne uses odd proportions to reject smooth conformity.

    “I hate the word cool, but...like nerdier in a way because I like the idea of playing against something that looks too cool in a way. And I think there is something about like an oddly ill fitting looking short jacket and oddly short trouser that, you know, people don't still to this day don't seem to understand. Which I love the idea of that.” — Thom Browne [17:55]

• Revelation over Concealment
  • The short jackets and trousers require a wearer’s confidence:

    “You can't hide in them...the idea of a fit being a different fit instead of covering someone up, reveals them...then suddenly this metamorphosis occurs.” — Brad [18:34] “It is somewhat transformative...it fits in a way that you do have to, you have to be ready for. Because it does bother people sometimes...my personality...loved the idea that it did bother people.” — Thom Browne [19:14]

Roots and Influences: Family, Childhood, and Americanism

• Parental Influences
  • His father’s indifference to clothes—yet always looking good—shaped Thom’s values, as did his mother’s classic pragmatism.
• School Uniforms & Childhood Sensibilities
  • Wearing uniforms in Catholic school and observing the rituals/shorthand of family dress fueled his core aesthetic.
• American Sensibility
  • Of his national outlook, he says:

    “American sensibility, for me...is almost a combination between sportswear and tailoring. It's the idea of clothing that actually is really worn in a very free way.” — Thom Browne [24:24]

Subversion, Misunderstanding, and the Value of Being ‘Difficult’

• Provoking and Challenging Audiences
  • Browne thrives on the fact that his work isn’t always “understood.”

    “I love the idea of things not being so understood. And when I feel like people understand things too well, I think I'm not doing something right, because I do love the challenge of people not always understanding what I do.” — Thom Browne [26:00]

Dress Codes, Employee Uniforms, and Design Philosophy

• Strict but Not Imposed

  • The gray/white dress code in Thom Browne offices is both a bonding device and an aesthetic signature, with navy as a “treat” for weekends.

    “Navy is because it was like a treat for the, you know, for the weekend so that they weren't subjected to just gray all week long.” — Thom Browne [27:29]

• On Wearing One’s Own Designs

  • Thom questions designers who don’t wear their own work.

    “The idea that you’re working in design and working with, in a design house that you wouldn’t want to fully embrace, you know, everything that's being designed...I could never think of wearing something else.” — Thom Browne [28:46]

The Creation Process: Never Finished, Always Evolving

• Perfectionism vs. Deadlines
  • Comparisons are drawn to Charles James and directors who tinker endlessly.

    “He would even take it back from a client and not give it back and like retailer it for another client...like Fountainhead kind of perfectionist.” — Thom Browne [31:21]

  • On fashion shows:

    “I get told all the time they're too long and I, I wish they could be ten times longer, really.” — Thom Browne [32:46]

Symbols, Codes, and Urban Legends

• The Four Stripes
  • Their origin is explained as an American varsity sweater reference:

    “I fought Adidas very hard to own these four stripes. It came from a varsity sports reference...it's not just American, but for me it was an American varsity sweater.” — Thom Browne [36:08]

• Invented Myths: The Debate Over Shaved Legs
  • Thom debunks rumors about his legs:

    “They totally invented. I have the hairiest legs and I've never. Well, no, I did shave them when I swam, but I haven't shaved them since.” — Thom Browne [35:10]

Melancholy, Beauty, and the Emotional Life of Clothing

• Beauty in Sadness
  • Thom discusses the allure of sadness and melancholy as creative inspirations.

    “I love the idea of, you know, I think there is something really beautiful in sadness and sometimes...in death. And I think there is something really beautiful about how he can create worlds with...I find it actually somewhat not so sad and kind of beautiful. It's like the, like a Karen Carpenter song.” — Thom Browne [06:12]

• Films as Visual and Emotional Inspiration
  • Favorite films ("Chinatown," "Metropolis," "The Zone of Interest") are cited as containers for both beauty and darkness.

    "I love. I'm inspired mostly visually through, you know, film or art or architecture and. And I love films that just some. Sometimes just simply beautiful to look at." — Thom Browne [43:39]

The Role of Intelligence and Vulnerability

• On Intelligence

  • Both host and guest agree that intelligence is the ultimate quality—whether in clothes, creation, or people.

    "There's nothing that trumps intelligence." — Thom Browne [52:11]

• Vulnerability in Personality and Dress

  • Discussing dressing Teyana Taylor:

    "She also appreciates the appreciation of her...of who she is in her body...she is so. Such a true person, and she's so strong, but she's also so beautifully, you know, real and vulnerable." — Thom Browne [50:16]

• On Nakedness and Authenticity

  • Browne answers candidly about being naked, linking it to comfort and authenticity.

    "When I'm naked, I'm naked. Yeah." — Thom Browne [48:13]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I do love the challenge of people not always understanding what I do.” — Thom Browne [26:00]
• “It is somewhat transformative because it is very different and very much in an opposite way. The way that clothing normally fits.” — Thom Browne [19:14]
• “I always never wanted to do anything for everyone. But I do feel like it can be understood by a lot more people. And it's the ongoing, sometimes frustration, but challenge in a way.” — Thom Browne [39:33]
• “They're always trying to impose things upon it, and sometimes they're the most amazing, interesting ideas that they're imposing on it, which I wish I was that smart.” — Thom Browne [40:21]
• “I just have no interest in frivolous fashion. I just like interesting ideas that...transcend fashion.” — Thom Browne [42:14]
• “I love seeing Andrew [Bolton], my partner, in my clothes. I’m just so fortunate to be with Andrew because he is my biggest inspiration.” — Thom Browne [44:53]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & daily uniform discussion: [00:49]–[01:24]
• Embraced by Paris and fantasy in design: [02:09]–[04:29]
• Childhood, family, and rules of dress: [07:30]–[12:38]
• Uniformity, individuality, and LeBron example: [15:16]–[16:19]
• Proportion, transformation, and comfort zones: [17:22]–[20:55]
• American sensibilities and subversive tendencies: [23:43]–[27:01]
• Employee dress code and wearing your own designs: [27:10]–[29:21]
• Perfectionism, show lengths, and Charles James: [31:02]–[34:46]
• Stripes as code, shaved leg myth: [35:10]–[36:47]
• Intelligence, vulnerability, and role models (Teyana Taylor, Whoopi Goldberg): [44:53]–[52:11]

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Conclusion

In this rich, personal exchange, Thom Browne reveals how fashion can be both a fortress and a window to the soul. Through the lens of uniformity, proportion, and an insistence on doing things his own way, Browne illustrates how true individuality hides in plain sight—and that design, like life, derives its meaning from a commitment to being a little misunderstood.

Transcript

[Brad]

What goes up must come down.

[Thom Browne]

Except when it comes to gas prices.

[Political Commentator]

The price tends to rocket up very quickly at the pump, as when crude oil prices go up, but gasoline prices tend to take a little bit longer to go down in many cases.

[Podcast Host]

This week on Explain It To Me why gas and everything else is so expensive these days. Find new episodes Sundays wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brad]

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Thom Brown.

[Thom Browne]

Thank you. It's so nice to be here.

[Brad]

Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

[Thom Browne]

I'm wearing pretty much what I wear every day. And it's just a tailored jacket, tailored shorts, and a wool vest and tie

[Brad]

and these amazing socks which I'm coveting.

[Thom Browne]

Oh, and yeah, my socks.

[Brad]

I love a sock. And are they your shoes too, or they.

[Thom Browne]

Yep, they're my shoes.

[Brad]

Wow. Gosh. Literally everything. Underwear.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah. Oh, I could get dressed in the dark, you know, basically wear the same thing every day. And yeah, it's, it's my, I guess my uniform, my armor, and I like not having to think, think about it in the morning.

[Brad]

Yeah, it's. It's great because it's such a thoughtful outfit and it suits you so well. I mean, I know this is obvious, but to see, to see you in the flesh and wearing these clothes, which are so beautiful, it's really, it's really something. It's a fantastic impression you make.

[Thom Browne]

Thank you.

[Brad]

And you're a hugely successful fashion designer who's loved and respected in Paris as well. And you've been described as the most fantasy motivated designer that New York has. And how does it feel to be embraced by Paris?

[Thom Browne]

I mean, it's, you know, someone like that doesn't really feel like they're that connected to fashion. It does feel somewhat surreal in a way, because I, you know, I really just do what I do and I love, I love hearing that, you know, the word fantasy with my work because I love that side of what I do. I love the storytelling and I. And I love that people appreciate that side. And, you know, for me, I mean, I love being in New York and I love, you know, showing in New York as well. But, you know, Paris, I think for all of us is, you know, it's where you feel like you have to, if you want to be, I think, taken seriously, it is the place that you have to, you have to at least try and be seen and, you know, hopefully have your work appreciated.

[Brad]

Yeah. It's hard to get under the French skin, isn't it? They're very resistant, but you most definitely have completely penetrated that. You know, that sort of glass wall that they put up to everyone.

[Thom Browne]

Well, I think, I think they, you know, they really appreciate true design and quality and I think, you know, it's so cultural for them and I think that's what makes it so important.

[Brad]

Yeah. And there's something about the way about your clothes that has this kind of revelatory thing that's so unexpected. And when I was watching your film, the Septembrists and as though these kind of like the internal had burst out of their backs in these white, lacy, feathery things, almost like some sort of chrysalis. It was. How did that come out of a gray suit?

[Thom Browne]

I think, you know, sometimes I don't even know where the, you know, the ideas come from other than I love the idea of the starting with something that is somewhat just mundanely classic and boring to people and creating a fantasy around it so that it, you know, it creates something that you haven't seen before or you've never thought of before. And I think that's, you know, how I work in general. And I don't ever want to over intellectualize it because I think that sometimes becomes too heavy handed and not so interesting. And I like to just instinctually think of things that might look interesting or just look fantastic. And the Septembers is a perfect example. The story was, you know, just a very simple story, but the. How fantastical the guys looked in such a weird Quaker way. And I think that it looked, you know, somewhat disturbing but really beautiful. And I thought, you know, it was a nice. I thought it was a really beautiful world.

[Brad]

Yeah, yeah. Because we were talking about Brideshead Revisited just before we started. And it has that kind of incredible melancholy beauty of a particular moment in life. And it was so well filmed. I mean it's really evocative that, that short film. It's wonderful.

[Thom Browne]

I love the idea of, you know, I think there is something really beautiful in sadness and sometimes in, you know, as strange as it sounds in death. And I think there is something really beautiful about how he can create worlds with. I think in ways that people would think are mostly sad. I find it actually somewhat not so sad and kind of beautiful. It's like the, like a Karen Carpenter song. Yeah, yeah. You never get bored of.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Thom Browne]

There's something so beautifully sad about her voice.

[Brad]

And there's something strangely when. I don't know if you ever get this, but feeling down how it's like being dragged down into passivity but A good sad song can just rouse you from the bottom of the riverbed and get you back up and doing the next thing and then somehow your back active, even if you don't feel happy. And you wore a school uniform till the age of 12. And is that unusual in America to wear a school uniform?

[Thom Browne]

No, it's. It's pretty standard in normally Catholic schools.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Thom Browne]

And yeah, so, no, it's pretty normal.

[Brad]

I suppose one always sees those films of everyone in these, like sports, cool, sporty, casual wear, going to some groovy school. But yeah, yeah. And you said about your father, he was a man hard at work who cared nothing for his clothes. He bought his clothes in cheap stores and it made him look handsome, naturally. And that's such a good description of why clothes do and don't matter. And I wondered where do your rules about clothes come from?

[Thom Browne]

Where do they come from? I think they. I think we all, you know, there's something in our parents and in all of us. And I think the idea of. Because I don't really care that much about clothes, you know, especially the clothes that I wear, other than I like them really well made, but I don't like to think about them so much. And I think there's a little bit of that that I have from my father and I don't think he cared anything about clothes at all. But he always did look good because it was basically more of that 50s, 60s uniform that he lived in 99% of the time. And for me I love that idea. And not just for men, I love it for women too. I think it's very interesting when you feel like somebody has such a true sense of themselves and it doesn't have to be tailoring. It could be a T shirt and jeans, it could be whatever the person has really taken on as what makes them the most comfortable. And it never changes. I think there's something really interesting about that and, and for me that's why I feel, you know, specifically in what I do. I feel like I. I somewhat not that interested in. In fashion per se because I, I don't like things, things to change. I like it to stay as like almost like a single image, especially for myself.

[Brad]

Yeah, it's so original to think like that. It's such a confident place to be and I can definitely relate to that because there's so much nuance in a very strict edit. And there's something going back to your father's clothes. There's something incredibly attractive in a man in clothes he barely notices and his handsomeness shines out. Yeah, it's lovely. Did he wear short sleeve shirts at all?

[Thom Browne]

He. He did, yeah. Yeah. You know, short sleeve dress shirts, which, you know, for me, I think there's something so interesting. But for him it wasn't, it was just, you know, his thing. And I mean, if he didn't have, you know, if he didn't have tailoring to, to put on in the morning, I don't, I don't know really what he would have thought of to put on.

[Brad]

Yeah,

[Thom Browne]

he was a very, he was a very serious person, but not like, like obnoxiously serious. He was very serious about just doing what he did. And he also had seven kids, so he had, you know, the responsibility of all of us. And, and then there was my mother. That was like a huge voice in my life too.

[Brad]

Yeah. Because you said you loved the way she dressed and I wondered if she paid attention to how you dress. Was she. Did she like to see you in certain things?

[Thom Browne]

She did care more about clothing and how she dressed herself, but in a very, very classic way as my father. And for all of us, I mean, she was just happy with all of us being in the uniforms that we grew up with and those being just navy jacket. And, you know, it was, we splurged and wore khakis in the summer and flannels in the winter, so it wasn't so much. But I think in somewhat in her defense, I don't think she, you know, really had the time to think that much about dressing each one of us individually. And I think, you know, she was, she was the most beautiful person in how she gave all of her time to us.

[Brad]

Wow.

[Astad Hernton]

For the last 10 years, everything in American politics has basically revolved around one man. And as a political journalist who came of age during Donald Trump's rise in 2018, 2016, I've had a front row seat.

[Political Commentator]

I am officially running for President of the United States. It's going to be only America First. America First.

[Tucker Carlson]

Thousands of supporters of President Trump stormed the U.S. capitol building.

[Astad Hernton]

But is it possible to talk about politics without talking about Donald Trump? That's the question I'm going to ask in our new show from vox.

[Podcast Host]

The idea of like a post Trump or not exactly Trump focused show can exist because he's not really driving any agenda items. It really does feel like so reactive.

[Political Commentator]

You know, I think this Iran thing is also going to cause a big split in the gop. So far it doesn't among like people who say they're MAGA voters are still with Trump, but like for the first time, you see on a major issue, open opposition from the start of this war.

[Astad Hernton]

I'm Astad Hernton, and welcome to America. Actually,

[Podcast Host]

it's Today Explained President Trump has not made a coherent case for his war in Iran. And last night he said he's not ending it yet.

[Political Commentator]

We're going to hit them extremely hard over the next two to three weeks.

[Thom Browne]

We're going to bring them back to

[Political Commentator]

the Stone Ages where they belong.

[Podcast Host]

His ally, Tucker Carlson has been making a very coherent case against the war

[Tucker Carlson]

because it doesn't serve American interests in any conceivable way. And. And let me just say that if it does in some way serve the interest of the United States, I'd love to hear it. I haven't heard.

[Podcast Host]

On Tuesday, we asked Carlson about his break with Trump and about how the Trump coalition is splintering as some young conservatives abandon the president and embrace something darker.

[Tucker Carlson]

It becomes like, all of a sudden, like, hey, you kids, why you listen to Elvis Presley and that rock music is bad? Like, all of a sudden, Fuentes controls the conversation and becomes the cool kid, and the net effect is to make the Holocaust a joke.

[Podcast Host]

Today explained every weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brene Brown]

Hi, I'm Brene Brown.

[Thom Browne]

And I'm Adam Grant.

[Brene Brown]

And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop, a podcast that's a

[Political Commentator]

place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning.

[Brene Brown]

It's gonna be fun. We rarely agree, but we almost never

[Astad Hernton]

disagree, and we're always learning.

[Brene Brown]

That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

[Brad]

And with uniform being such a huge theme in your work, and I always think there's something quite contradictory and sort of kinky about a uniform. And you say everyone looks like an individual in them. And is that because people's distinguishing features are more visible when they're dressed the same?

[Thom Browne]

Yeah, I love. I love the idea of uniformity and how it does make somebody look so much more interesting and so much more of an individual because. Exactly. That you do see, you know, what does really make them the person that they are. And I think there's something so interestingly provocative about seeing a group of people wearing the same thing. And like you're saying with LeBron, that was what was so great about that moment with LeBron and his teammates was they're, you know, wearing the same thing, and they all looked so strongly individual.

[Brad]

Yeah, it's contraindicative. You know, you Think of people in a uniform that it suppresses their individuality. And then when you see them, you see how everyone has customized the way they wear things. And I always loved that as a child because we didn't have any uniform at my school and I longed for that. I wanted to be. Have a blanket so that I could break out of that and establish my own kind of nuance of it. But then they abolished the uniform just as I was sort of gearing up to wearing a tie and I had to pretend I was really happy and I wasn't. But so I really see it. And even watching kids in the street coming out of school, everyone having such a strong look.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah.

[Brad]

More so than if they were wearing their own clothes. And you're very specific about proportion. And your, your jackets are short and they leave this sort of solar plexus area slightly exposed and it's a triangle where things can be slightly messy. I always notice on myself and, and I. You need a lot of confidence for that. And there's no long jacket covering the waist or the crotch. And is that about toughness or vulnerability?

[Thom Browne]

I think it more like, it makes it look a little less. I hate the word cool, but like it like nerdier in a way because I like the idea of playing against something that looks too cool in a way. And I think there is something about like an oddly ill fitting looking short jacket and oddly short trouser that, you know, people don't still to this day don't seem to understand. Which I love the idea of that.

[Brad]

Yeah. Because it's. I love looking at your suits and how they're made and constructive and how you can't hide in them. Exactly. So you have to show something else. And the idea of a fit being a different fit instead of covering someone up, reveals them if they can, if they can make the step into that. Then suddenly this metamorphosis occurs.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah. I do feel like sometimes not to give it that much credit, but it is somewhat transformative because it is very different and very much in an opposite way. The way that clothing normally fits. It fits in a way that you do have to, you have to be ready for. Because it does, it does bother people sometimes in, in whatever way. I think it's, you know, sometimes I, I questioned it, especially at the beginning when people, you know, they just didn't understand it because it looked ill fitting to most people. And for me it was, it was exactly how it should be fitting. And, but I, but, and it was my personality that loved the idea that it did bother people.

[Brad]

Yeah. That's so interesting that. Because there's comfort and there's comfort, and I think one of the comforts is. Is terrible. It's kind of just a blandification. You never want to be too comfortable or you just become a slob in the wrong way.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And I think this, it's so. It's fascinating to see how you push people into a new comfort zone of some sort of. To do with courage in their individuality. Is that something that you consciously think about when you're shaping?

[Thom Browne]

I. I think there's nothing more interesting or inspiring in somebody that, you know, is totally themselves and totally comfortable in their own skin. And I feel like that was how I started. This was. This is exactly how I am 100% comfortable. And yeah, I think there is. We do sometimes live in a world that everybody wants to be. Everybody's afraid, I guess, you know, maybe to be, you know, too much of an individual. But I think the world needs more of true individuals. I think it's, especially in design. I think it's our job to make sure that people see things differently. And I love the idea that even what I created in my collection 25 years ago still, I think, looks brand new. And still people still look at it and laugh at it. And, and I love that I get laughed at all the time by kids. I walk past like schoolyards and kids yell, laughing me.

[Brad]

What do they say?

[Thom Browne]

Pee Wee Herman. Yeah. So.

[Brad]

And did you ever have any hang ups about your body when you were growing up? I remember the designer Anthony Price saying, darling, we'd never be designers if we were perfect. And it's all about the kind of, you know, the, the reconfiguring of the impression.

[Thom Browne]

I never did, other than that I would love to have been taller, but not really was never, um, you know, but that's what made the proportion that much stranger to people because, you know, my torso, like, short for my, for my, the length of my legs. So it was, you know, I was trying to, you know, play with proportion in regards to the top and the bottom and, and the top started getting shorter and shorter and shorter. And in reality, it was extremely short. So.

[Brad]

But

[Thom Browne]

I don't know, that means I was self conscious about it. But yeah, the only thing I would love to have been taller, but I'm fine with it now. 60 years old, I'm fine.

[Brad]

Yeah, it's taken me about that long to be fine with my opposite proportions because I think proportion is such a huge thing in modernity, and that's why things look modern and is to do with a real strong proportion that someone's created rather than going along with fashion. And you're the middle child of six other siblings, and your childhood looks all American, and you've talked about American sensibilities, and I wondered what American sensibilities are and how do you turn them into something so creative?

[Thom Browne]

I think it really. American sensibility, for me, just really. It's almost a combination between sportswear and tailoring. It's the idea of clothing that actually is really worn in a very free way. I think that's what an American sensibility is to me. Things a little bit easier to wear. And, you know, the way that I play with it is really taking that sensibility and sometimes tailoring it a little bit more. But, you know, I. You know, I don't ever want to get so locked into referencing it so specifically, but in my head, I mean. I mean, maybe people don't think like it's an American sensibility at all, but in my head, it feels that everything I do still has a very free American spirit to it.

[Brad]

Yeah, it certainly shows that. And it seems. It's quite unusual for a designer to be so sort of subversive in how they. I mean, how you play with this traditional thing, and where does that come from? It seems, you know, it's really striking. And it's so thrilling as a European to feel like, oh, yeah, he's one of us. You know, I mean, I. That sounds a bit kind of presumptuous because it's so. It's really superb what you do and. But it seems un American.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't. You know, honestly, my parents probably are looking from upstairs and they're, like, rolling their eyes, wondering where did the he come from? But I don't know. I think, you know, it all comes down to just wanting to do things that are interesting to me. And, you know, and I love the idea of things not being so understood. I like them to be some. Sometimes things not being so pretty and so ordinary and so attractive in a way, I like. I like the idea of it not being so understood. And when I feel like people understand things too well, I think I'm not doing something right, because I do love the challenge of people not always understanding what I do.

[Brad]

Yeah. Yeah, I think. I mean, I completely agree. And it's. I mean, it's much more interesting and.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Because I read that you had a dress code for your employees, which is gray. Uh, oh, gray with a white shirt. And Navy is permitted Friday through Sunday but discouraged during the week.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And I wondered why Navy for the weekend.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah, Navy is because it was like a treat for the, you know, for the weekend so that they weren't subjected to just gray all week long. And it played a little bit into the uniform of, you know, when I grew up with, you know, the Navy jacket. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think there's probably going to be a horrible book written about me someday. But I think we all like, I, I love how it looks and I love, you know, I think it's, it, it creates an image in people's minds of what we do. And so we, we do, well, represent it in a very strict way at work. And, and, but I don't, I don't want to feel like I impose it on them. I, I, I hope that they all want,

[Brad]

Because it sounds like an imposition, but actually, I mean, I know from having employees that it's, you know, everyone wants more uniform and they do. So it's so nice when people want to wear what you've made and.

[Thom Browne]

Well, I don't understand, you know, sometimes when you're in design and you, you don't wear what you design. That whole idea I don't understand because I, I mean, I love, probably love my clothing better than anybody else, and I, I could never think of wearing something else. So the idea that you're, you're working in design and working with, in a design house that you wouldn't want to fully embrace, you know, everything that's being designed.

[Brad]

Do you, I mean, I agree. I feel I have to test out my clothes and find what works and what could work again in some shape or form. And do you fit on yourself? Do you try things on as you're going through fitting stages?

[Thom Browne]

I used to, I'm not, I would, I'm not a good fit model. So it's, But I, I like to feel like I could be, you know, fitting all of them. But I know, I mean, the clothing would be even more ill fitting if I was, you know, fitting it all on myself. But it is, you know, all things that I would want to, you know, you know, wear myself.

[Brad]

Because sometimes, I mean, I'm certainly not a good fit model, but I try things on and see I know how things fit me when they don't fit me properly. But to feel that I feel I'm not doing my job properly if I don't feel it as it's moving and I get too detached and into the Perfection of how it is on a fit model. I feel I need to see it warped on myself slightly. Do you try, do you do that?

[Thom Browne]

No, I don't, no. Because it would be really ill fitting on me, so. But it's, it's, it sound. It sounds like I want to try it. Yeah.

[Brad]

Well, another great American designer, Charles James, he used to try on those amazing dresses and fit them on himself to. Or was it his?

[Thom Browne]

That's amazing.

[Brad]

I think it was on himself. But he certainly tried them on boys and they're the best clothes, the best evening dresses. They've got some in that V and A, the Victoria and Albert Museum archive there. They're great to see.

[Thom Browne]

I mean, the best, the best. And I love the stories on how. How much of a perfectionist he was and how he never was finished with a dress. He would even take it back from a client and not give it back and like retailer it for another client and give it back to the new client. I mean, the stories are amazing. And how he was that like almost like Fountainhead kind of perfectionist type of person.

[Brad]

Yeah, it's like a film director just re editing again and again and never being able to finish,

[Thom Browne]

which is. I totally get that.

[Brad]

I mean, thank God for deadlines because one would never finish anything otherwise.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah, no, because you're the only one. Like when you have a show, you're the, you do actually see all the faults more than you see the, you know, the, the good bits.

[Brad]

Yeah, I know it's harsh. That's what's great about making films is. Yeah, you can shape it, but you do the most incredible shows and they're absolutely heart stopping.

[Thom Browne]

So I love them. I, I get told all the time they're too long and I, I wish they could be ten times longer, really.

[Brad]

Like in the old days, Vivian, when I worked for Vivienne Westwood, she used to do shows that went on and then quite a long time. And then she introduced some. She, she turned her model, Sarah Stockbridge, into a singer. And so there was a concert on the stage and it was fantastic. It was so exciting the way everything became something else and why.

[Thom Browne]

Just. I feel like nowadays it's so unfortunate that people, they, I don't. They have such a short attention span and they want it to be so quick because. And personally I just, I do spend so much time, of course with the collection, but I spend so much time with how they're going to experience it and how, you know, the story that's going to go along with it and it can't be such a short experience. It needs to be, you know, almost a beginning, middle and end type of experience.

[Brad]

Do people enjoy that?

[Thom Browne]

No, not everybody does. No. Actually more don't than do. Yeah, you know, it's, it's like running commentary on how long my, my shows are, which, you know, some kind of roll my eyes, but. Because I could, I could go on and on.

[Brad]

Yeah, I think that's. I think. Yeah. Well, I think it's great to do that and it's important as a designer, one gets such a tiny moment of showing things how you want them to be that it's good to take that, grab it, Nadine, as they say.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah, I agree, but it's not always appreciated that way.

[Brad]

And I read in an interview, it said Brown is in a grey suit with shorts and legs shaved to mid calf. And I wondered what that leg shaved to mid calf. Is that a code or did that person invent that about you?

[Thom Browne]

They totally invented. I have the hairiest legs and I've never. Well, no, I did shave them when I swam, but I haven't shaved them since. But you don't know where that came from.

[Brad]

It's interesting with your dress code that people now imposing these other things on it that you actually haven't done. I wondered if it was to do with like cycling. I know you run and you're very athletic.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah, I have no problems if I did shave my legs and, you know, admitting to it, but I don't shave my legs.

[Brad]

I quite like this kind of weird thing. A mid calf shave is like a thing and.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brad]

What do I. I need to find out about that. But. And the stripe, where did the three stripes on the arm come from? And it's as though it denotes a rank in the world of dressing in some way.

[Thom Browne]

The four stripes. I fought very hard for those four stripes.

[Brad]

Sorry, did I say Freudian slip?

[Thom Browne]

That three.

[Brad]

Yes, I four.

[Thom Browne]

I fought Adidas very hard to own these four stripes. It came from a varsity sports reference. It was in America, varsity sweaters a lot of times had either three or four stripes. And, you know, so it came very simply from that piece of. Very American, I think it's not just American, but for me it was an American varsity sweater.

[Brad]

So I saw a photo of you as a little child and you all had these little V necks with stripes on the neck and on the rib. It's quite a. I suppose it's a schooly thing, isn't it? That's always so charming. And I mean, I'm obsessed with A strife as well. I usually like to have one running down the outside of my arm, if possible. It feels like something a bird might have, and then you can just whiz away. You have this formality and also all these subversive elements. And I remember, I wondered if you remember the first time you wanted to explode the order and the way you suggest in your work.

[Thom Browne]

You know, I think, you know, I think it's the reason why I started my own was, you know, working for other people and, you know, appreciating, you know, initially just appreciating having some. A paycheck. But, yeah, there was always something that I knew that there was something I wanted to do myself, and it was specifically taking something. I love the idea of taking an idea that everyone understood and making it not understood by most people. And I think that's exactly where it started when I started my first. When I made my first jacket and trouser.

[Brad]

I love the way you go back to kind of. It's like you filter out the. The masses in keeping your integrity so that you. There's no dilution. I think that's great.

[Thom Browne]

I know. I love it too. But it's. It's, you know, that's the ongoing challenge, as, you know, as, you know, I get older and people want more of it and from it, you know, the idea is how does it evolve and grow without losing any of that? Because I do really. I love the purity of just that simple proportion. And in a weird way, I don't understand why a lot more people don't see themselves in it. And I think that is sometimes my challenge because I feel like it's very understandable.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Thom Browne]

But I like how it's not too understandable to. Because I always never wanted to do anything for everyone. But I do feel like it can be understood by a lot more people. And it's the ongoing, sometimes frustration, but challenge in a way. But I do. You know, I love what it is

[Brad]

because you said sometimes my work isn't as intellectual as people seem to think it is. And why do you think it comes across as intellectual? Do you think people are somehow looking for clues to make sense of it?

[Thom Browne]

They're always trying to impose things upon it, and. And sometimes they're the most amazing, interesting ideas that they're imposing on it.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Thom Browne]

Which I wish I was that smart, and I wish I. You know, but I don't. And I actually love that they do because I think that it's interesting. And, you know, if that's how they. I guess Try to understand it more. I guess it makes it. I guess it's interesting. But for me, I like the idea that it's not so intellectual and because I feel like it's. It. It. There's almost. It gives it like a naivete that is, I find very charming.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Thom Browne]

You know, and I love, you know, little kids and their naivete and. And I do feel like I use that as an inspiration a lot in my collections in, you know, ideas and not thinking about them too much and, you know, infusing them into, you know, the way. The way that I make the collections and my work is very seriously thought out. But the idea that there's a mix of something very, you know, sophomoric and juvenile. And I love that.

[Brad]

Yeah. I mean, I suppose the clothes are so intelligent in a way, and they. I always think that if you have a good outfit on, you can be more intelligent because you can forget about your self consciousness and get, you know, be free in your. The way you think. And maybe there's something about how well made your things are and how someone seeing them. Yeah, I think they're very curious.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah, I do. I like the idea that it's. The intelligence is in the quality of the clothes. And I just have. I just have no interest in, you know, frivolous fashion. I just like interesting ideas that. That. That, I guess transcend fashion.

[Brad]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Thom Browne]

In all due respect to fashion, I think fashion is, you know, it's important that, you know, I think clothing do express a lot of what's happening, you know, culturally, and you can express yourself through fashion. But I just have a totally different approach to it. And it's. I don't think it's always the normal way of approaching it.

[Brad]

Well, it's certainly embraced by fashion. So your kind of projection of fashion is literally what has made you Paris embrace and have so much respect for your work. And you said your favorite films are Chinatown and the Zone of Interest and both sort of aesthetic containers for man's worst unchecked depravity. And is that part of the beauty that you're interested in?

[Thom Browne]

Yeah. And then also films like Metropolis and, you know, films that the photography is just so well done that you could almost watch the movie without any sound. You know, I love. I'm inspired mostly visually through, you know, film or art or architecture and. And I love films that just some. Sometimes just simply beautiful to look at.

[Brad]

Yeah. Well, the stories are so interesting in those films. It's interesting how the aesthetics are so strong because the story is so Good. You become amplified. Your interest in those characters becomes amplified. And, and the clothes play a big part in that. But I suppose in the end, it's people that are interesting, and so how they wear their clothes then becomes interesting. And your romantic partner, Andrew Bolton is the head curator at the Anna Winter Costume center at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And does he wear your clothes in a way that you find particularly attractive?

[Thom Browne]

Oh, he, well, Andrew is perfection for me. So everything he does is I, you know, puts a smile on my face and, you know, he wears them exactly how he wants to wear them and lives in them in the most beautiful, real way. And he, I'm just so fortunate to be, you know, with Andrew because he is my biggest inspiration. And he, everything he does is so well done. And, you know, seeing him work and seeing his work is so inspiring because he, he loves it so much. But also, too, he, he really does important work.

[Brad]

You say that as though you don't.

[Thom Browne]

I think I, I, I kind of, I prefer other people commenting on, you know, whatever I do. But, yeah, I am, I have, I can and have the luxury of saying, I think Andrew does the most important work. And I think, especially in fashion, I always feel like he is the most important person in fashion because he elevates what we do to be, you know, worthy of being in the Met. And I think there's no greater gift that, you know, anybody gives to us as designers.

[Brad]

Yeah, certainly is true. And if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

[Thom Browne]

No. I don't know. I should, like, I don't know. I don't, I don't think I've had an experience. I mean, I, it, no. What doesn't change? I mean, as long as they're owning it and wearing it, you know, and they, you know, it's, it's them. And they're not, like, being told to wear it a certain way and that's how they're wearing it. Because I think the way that, Yeah, I mean, I, No, I don't think so.

[Brad]

You don't have a distant memory of a kind of repellent moment?

[Thom Browne]

No, no, not that I can recall.

[Brad]

And you're so specific about clothes. How do you feel about being naked

[Thom Browne]

at 60? I have probably different opinion than when I was 30. No, I'm comfortable, but for myself and for Andrew, I guess. But I think I would keep it behind closed doors.

[Brad]

I suppose maybe this is more woman thing, but to be naked. I find a lot of people like to keep Something on to. Of denote nakedness, but.

[Thom Browne]

No, no, no, no.

[Brad]

Not those amazing socks.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah, well, that's. That's a different. Yeah. Type of naked. No, when. When I'm naked, I'm naked. Yeah.

[Brad]

Yeah. And you've dressed some of the most incredible women and men for award seasons and the Met Gala. And some of my favorite of your outfits have been for Teyana Taylor, who I'm besotted with. And.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah.

[Brad]

When. Where do you start on the body with someone as dazzling as Te Ana, who. When she wants to up the ante.

[Thom Browne]

Well, I mean, her. In her whole body. I mean, she is. She is one the most special person. I've gotten to know her over, I think, the last decade. And I love, firstly, I love what she does, and I love her work, but with her, you know, her whole person, she has the most amazing body to work with. So you want to make sure that you. You definitely take advantage of it when we're working together, because she has such a special, you know, person. But also, too, I think she also appreciates the appreciation of her. Of who she is in her body.

[Brad]

Yeah. That shot very near the beginning of one battle after another, where you just. It just pans out from her waist and you're completely obsessed from that moment and just how she uses her physicality and how intelligent it is. And her. I. It's really.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah. Because it is more than her body. You can tell it's. It's her whole person.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Thom Browne]

It's not just a good body.

[Brad]

No, it's so much more. It's like her brain is just. Yeah. Streaming through every bit of her.

[Thom Browne]

And she's very, like, the most amazingly confidently vulnerable, which I love about her. She's really so special because she is so. Such a true person, and she's so strong, but she's also so beautifully, you know, real and vulnerable. And can I, like, really talk about just things in the most beautiful, vulnerable, interesting way?

[Brad]

Wow, that sounds such a amazing experience to be able to clothe someone with those, you know, and to support them with clothing. And I always think as a designer, you have someone's back literally in how you send them out to. To be in the world. And with all that kind of spotlight, especially on her right now.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah. And so well deserved.

[Brad]

Yeah. She's really such a genius in her talent. And also, Whoopi Goldberg, you've dressed here is another person I admire hugely.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah. I mean, she's, you know, she is iconic, and talk about someone that is so comfortable with themselves and. And so smart. And, you know, and so she can be, you know, self deprecating and in the most confident way and it's, she's just, just one of the most intelligent people I've ever met.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Thom Browne]

And, and just so good at what she does and who she is as a person.

[Brad]

Yeah. It's all about intelligence in the end.

[Thom Browne]

It's, it's all, it all comes. There's nothing that trumps intelligence.

[Brad]

Yeah. Well, your clothes are very much, they seem like the container of intelligence and, and you're the generator of that. So

[Thom Browne]

I'm the dumb one in the smart clothes.

[Brad]

Well, I don't think anyone else thinks that.

[Thom Browne]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Thank you so much, Tom.

[Thom Browne]

Brad, thank you so much. This is so nice.

[Brad]

It's been wonderful to talk to you and to watch you.

[Thom Browne]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Brad]

Thank you. Sa.