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- [00:00]
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- [01:07]
Lauren Sherman
Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo line sheet and today with me on the show is none other than Terry Agans, former Wall Street Journal fashion reporter and author of the End of Fashion How Marketing Changed the Clothing Game Forever. Happy Tuesday everyone. Hope you are enjoying Paris. If you're there, I'm in Los Angeles. I'm also enjoying myself. I'm enjoying the beautiful weather. Monday's line sheet was super packed. There was some executive changes at lvmh. I had my take on Michael Ryder's Celine. Lots of thoughts from lots of people on this one. It was. It's really fun. I love the all these new designers. It's making it making it fun again. I also have some thoughts on the Valentino caring situation, some celebrity stylist change up news, and plenty more. And on Tuesday, Sarah gets into the magic of Aritzia and why everybody wants to copy it. Right now I feel like Aritzia. If Aritzia was a teenage girl, she'd be like, why are you copying me? Because literally every single high street or mall brand is trying to do what Aritzia does and Sarah shares some of their merchandising customer service secrets. Also, if you're at the shows in Paris, send me a message. I know it was only a couple more days, but it's always fun to hear from you. I love those morning dispatches. Let's get going with Terri. Terry Aikens, welcome to Fashion People.
- [02:44]
Terry Agins
Hey, I'm really glad to be here, Lauren. So let's get started.
- [02:48]
Lauren Sherman
I'm so happy to be here. So you just. We were just chatting. You. You. I'm so happy you're here. So we were just chatting about your amazing trip that you took and you had a close encounter with the Bezos wedding.
- [03:02]
Terry Agins
Right.
- [03:02]
Lauren Sherman
You were in Venice, like, right before.
- [03:04]
Terry Agins
Yes, yeah, my husband and I were there for about 10 days. The weather was hot, tons of tourists, as usual. And of course, there was a lot of buzz about the wedding. We were talking to different people who worked there, people at the hotel. And the Venetians were kind of had mixed feelings about this. Of course, they were happy to have all the millions of dollars that'll come there from.
- [03:25]
Lauren Sherman
To Venice.
- [03:26]
Terry Agins
And, you know, and they're used to a lot of these, you know, a lot of these disruptions because, you know, they have a Biennale every year, you know, Diane von Furstenberg Foundation. I mean, there's a lot of. There's always a lot of things going on in Venice. But they were kind of miffed about this.
- [03:42]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. What. And it was essentially because it was sort of taking the whole city.
- [03:48]
Terry Agins
Yeah. Well, I think the thing is, is this. And I think that it's about the fact that Bezos is so outsized. I mean, this. A lot of other celebrities have had weddings there. You know, George Clooney had a big wedding there. But I think it's just that Bezos is. I mean, here he is, one of the world's richest men. And, you know, they're giving this really. Having this really ostentatious, over the top wedding. Apparently, they took over a lot of the gondolas and, you know, they had lined up a lot of the big hotels. And so, as I said, they were kind. The Venetians were excited about this, but they're also kind of pissed. I mean, you know, people are suffering. And also people are also saying, like, why can't he pay taxes? I think there was a Greenpeace banner that said, like, this man spending all this money in Venice, why can't he pay his fair share of taxes?
- [04:43]
Lauren Sherman
Sure. I mean, this is the thing. This is the question of all rich people. Why don't they wanna pay for anything?
- [04:50]
Terry Agins
Exactly.
- [04:51]
Lauren Sherman
Right.
- [04:51]
Terry Agins
Yeah. And the other thing is, too, is that, I mean, when you have the Kardashians, the Trumps, everybody's arriving in all these private jets, and it was just over the top, I think it was too much, and it's tacky. But at the same time, this is the world we're living in. I mean, all these would be oligarchs. This is the way that they live. And my husband always calls this the politics of envy. Because here, all this excess that they're shoving in our faces, and I don't think people are jealous. I just think people are kind of turned off. There's nothing sophisticated about this at all. It's just tacky.
- [05:39]
Lauren Sherman
No, there is truly nothing sophisticated about it. But, you know, what I did think was sophisticated, or at least extremely fun and in some ways sensational, is this Michael Ryder debut at Celine on Sunday. Celine is an LVMH owned brand. It's had many, many different designers, including Michael Kors, Phoebe Filo and Hedi Slimane. And Michael Ryder, who was at Celine for, I think, about a decade and then went to Polo Ralph Lauren, and was instrumental in reviving that part of the Ralph Lauren universe. This was his first collection. And I sent you a link yesterday. I'm so curious what you think about it. I've been chatting with people all, you know, on every single platform about it. Everyone. All anyone wants to talk about is Michael.
- [06:33]
Terry Agins
Yeah, no, it looks sensational. And, you know, I remember when the. The other Michael, Michael Kors, was hired to work at lvmh, and he was there. He was the first designer to actually turn Celine into a brand. Now we're talking about, like, around 1998. And, you know, Michael Kors had that very clean American look, and he really did put Celine on the map in a real way. And then, you know, through the years, we saw Phoebe Philo, you know, and Hedi Slimane and all them there. So I think that Michael Ryder was. I think that he really. What was. I think that was really smart about this collection is that it looked incredibly. It looked sophisticated. It had that patrician chic, I think, like, you know, that updated kind of Sloan Ranger, the way the scarves were. They look like kind of like Hermes scarves. But that with the prints, there was that preppy classic, the camel and red. I mean, I saw a lot that that was very appealing, but it was all. It was done in such a really offhand way. I mean, obviously there was a lot of styling that made this look really cool. But, you know, the flat shoes. The only thing I didn't really like were the. There was the Celine logo on the shoes, on those kind of flat boots that I thought was kind of, you know, but I Think that was more just for, you know, its Runway and it. And it gave a nice kind of branding for the brand. But I think that this really, this collection really was an incredible debut for him. And I think that the Celine customers and also the way the women live, I think it's really going to connect with a lot of people.
- [08:27]
Lauren Sherman
I agree, I agree about the sort of wrestling type shoes with Celine on them. I thought the logo stuff, the logo T shirts and things, it was just wasn't necessary. Every. The stuff was so I loved the scarves, actually, but the logo T shirts and stuff, it just didn't. The collection didn't need it. I thought shout out to Brian Malloy, who styled the collection, I hear and is probably my number one stylist working right now. He works with the Row, he works with Tory Burch. And I just think he has a very good sense of like how real people dress. And I find it very inspiring. I thought that it was so much like you said this patrician, the Sloan Ranger. I said in my little item, it reminded me of like 1980s Spiegel catalog. I thought it was also just Michael is around, I think in his early 40s. It just was a lot of my friends, I'm 42. It felt like it was very much of a person who was of our generation. And there was no. I love the little dance shoes. I love the menswear. And I thought a lot of the menswear was stuff that women would wear too. My only sort of criticism of it was that I thought they could have cut 20 looks, especially the evening wear. It just felt like there was so much and it was really fun. And honestly, I'd say the feedback for this in my personal network has been more positive than the feedback for Jonathan Anderson at Dior. A lot of people really love that. I love that too. But this was sort of. Everyone was like, wow, I really want to wear this. I really want to buy it.
- [10:06]
Terry Agins
It was very, very wearable. And also, I mean, the way that he layered a lot of the colors, you know, there was red and they had that kind of green that was that kind of grass green, which I love and you rarely see. And also there were some really good faux furs that I thought that really worked out. And it felt very Ralph Lauren. I mean, even with the ties, you know, it felt. It felt it had Ralph Lauren, but it still, it felt very European because you've got that, you know, the broad shoulder and then the really nipped in waist with the jackets. No, it was hip. It Had a nice edge to it, and it was incredibly wearable. My issue with all fashion shows, I wish that designers would, like, stay in their lane. I mean, we don't need to see. You know, no one's going to Celine to buy gowns. Right. And you don't need all those party dresses. And also, you know, slapping the logos, those oversized logos on the T shirts. I mean. I mean, I know that's all kind of fashion show. That's part of the branding that they do for a show. But. And I agree with you, it's not necessary. But, you know, designers feel like they have to have. I think there were, like, 72 looks or so on this show. And like you said, they could have cut out some of those, but it was still very tightly edited. I thought, smart. I love that. Didn't you love that crease down those jeans?
- [11:28]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, my God, the jeans are so good. I loved it.
- [11:31]
Terry Agins
That crease. I thought that was a really good look. And also. And it was the. The way that the. They weren't just wide pants. They came in at the bottom.
- [11:40]
Lauren Sherman
Yes.
- [11:40]
Terry Agins
The peg leg kind of peg leg. Thanks. Yeah, I don't like the really, really wide pants. I hate all those really, really wide pants. I think they can be kind of sloppy. But there was a lot of control in this. I like this collection, and, you know, it. And it goes with the Celine branding that, as I said, Michael kors started in 98, Phoebe, et cetera. And so. Bravo.
- [12:03]
Lauren Sherman
So question for you. What was it like when. Cause I started. I started covering luxury in, like, 0506 in earnest. What was it like in the late 90s when Bernard Arnault was. When Tom Ford was at Gucci and Bernard Arnault was sort of hiring all these young American designers to be at the brands? Like, what did you think when they hired Michael Kors to be at Celine or Narciso to be at Loewe? Like, what was. As a reporter, what was your sort of. Were you like, what is this guy doing?
- [12:40]
Terry Agins
We were all intrigued because this is the first time. I mean, you know, LVMH had really. I mean, this was a huge gamble. And to hire all these guys especially. And the one that really surprised me was Marc Jacobs, because I kept saying, you know, I can't see him working in a corporate environment. And as you might recall, at the beginning, he had a. You know, it was a very fitful start for him. And, you know, and they finally. You know, he finally hit pay dirt with the things he did with Steven Sprouse. Et cetera. But that time was. It was a time of. Arnaud hired people, hired designers who had a big footprint in the. We didn't have social media back then, but they certainly were Runway darlings, all of them. And this goes with Alexander McQueen, Galliano, and also. And even in Narciso, because, you know, Narciso had already done that big wedding with the. With JFK and Carolyn Bessette. And so he hired these people with the hopes of really trying to explode and make these brands, not just couture brands, but something that would really reach a lot of people. So it was a big gamble, and. And it really paid off. I mean, you look at it back then, and I remember talking to Narciso because they put Narciso Rodriguez at Loewe, and Narciso was kind of like, you know, he didn't really get a lot of direction. And I know he wasn't really happy being there. And, you know, and he. You know, it just didn't go anywhere. But then, Michael Kors. Mr. Arnault adored Michael Kors. I remember he even told me, when I did my first book, we talked about this experiment, and Michael Kors was his favorite of the designers because he said, this guy does trunk shows. He likes to talk to consumers. And Michael Kors was always very, very. You know, he's corporate, and he looked at things in that way. So he. Mr. Arnault was really enamored with Koras at that beginning time, obviously, with McQueen and with Marc Jacobs. As I said, it was fitful, but it was something that was a grand experiment. A lot of us kind of wondered if it was gonna work, but it did in the long run. And then years later, when we saw LVMH come out with Sephora, which was a real departure from, I mean, everything. People bought cosmetics at department stores, and so Sephora was a big deal. But by then, I think LVMH knew what they were doing, and, you know, the rest is history.
- [15:19]
Lauren Sherman
Well, really quickly on. Oh, Terry, you gotta come back. And we'll just do a Terry's career outline, because one more thing on this.
- [15:29]
Terry Agins
Sure.
- [15:29]
Lauren Sherman
So he love Arnaud, loved Coors. I understand that. I always say, whenever I meet young American designers who are like, I don't want to do trunk shows. I'm like, fine, you're not going to become a billionaire like Michael Kors, because that's what you. He still does trunk shows. He still goes to shops and meets with people, and that's one of the secrets to success. But in 04 or 03. Lvmh sold their stake in Michael Kors to Silas Chao and John Idle and all those guys, and Michael Kors stopped designing Celine. What happened? What do you think? Do you think that is it back to this thing of. At some point, Arnault realized, I actually am not in the business of American, like, 7th Avenue brands. And that was just the first move to. I don't know, but I don't sort of separate himself.
- [16:26]
Terry Agins
I think that at that point, he probably didn't see this. As, you know, LVMH became a lot more commercial in the mid 2000s than it was at the beginning. And then I think Michael also, he had, you know, I remember talking to him about this. He was good. He did his gig at Celine. He did a great job. He was ready to move on because he wanted to concentrate on his brand. And as you know, Arnault was never. I mean, when he hired Marc Jacobs, for example, even though Arnault invested in the Marc Jacobs label, his job, Marc's job was to focus on lv. The Louis Vuitton was his brand. And so that was what kept. He kept them for like 16 years. So at LV and the MARC Jacobs brand really never went anywhere because that was. But Michael Kors was always interested in his brand. And the one thing that Chow and Strohl did, which was so, you know, marvelous, is they really zeroed in on Michael Kors as a kind of a celebrity. I mean, he was on Project Runway all that time. And then that's when they zeroed in on the accessories and. But it was a, you know, with that kind of department store, Luke's and it, you know, and department stores loved it because it was another luxurious. You know, it had a cool factor, and it wasn't it and it wasn't preppy, but it, you know, and this was really kind of taking the place of what Calvin Klein was at one point. And it was a really smart move. And it worked out and, you know, and they turned it into a billion dollar brand. But I don't know what Arnaud. I don't know if they were, but it was also a lot of that was also centered in the US And I think that at that time, Arnaud was still thinking, you're more in a global sense.
- [18:24]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. And I think there is a thing of that business is the businesses of Ralph Lauren and Michael Kors and even to an extent, Marc Jacobs, but not as now, but not then. Those were, you know, Macy's businesses. And that just isn't the business that they're in. The margin is different. I, I don't know. In the future. It's, it's. Someone said to me the Michael Ryder Celine collection was a good argument that Arnault should buy Ralph Lauren, but. But it is. Yeah. I think that, I think that you nailed it.
- [19:02]
Carvana Representative
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- [19:05]
Terry Agins
Whoa. When did I get here?
- [19:06]
Carvana Representative
What do you mean?
- [19:07]
Venmo Representative
I swear it was just moments ago that I accepted a great offer from Carvana online. I must have time traveled to the future.
- [19:13]
Carvana Representative
It was just moments ago. We do same day pickup. Here's your check for that great offer.
- [19:17]
Terry Agins
It is the future. It's.
- [19:19]
Carvana Representative
It's the present and just the convenience of Carvana. Sorry to blow your mind.
- [19:23]
Terry Agins
It's all good.
- [19:24]
Venmo Representative
Happens all the time.
- [19:26]
Terry Agins
Sell your car the convenient way to Carvana.
- [19:30]
Lauren Sherman
Pick up.
- [19:30]
Terry Agins
Times may vary and fees may apply.
- [19:33]
Ben Stiller
Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. And I'm Adam Scott and we host a podcast called the Severance Podcast where we used to break down every episode of the TV show Severance.
- [19:41]
Terry Agins
Severance isn't back just yet, but the podcast is.
- [19:45]
Ben Stiller
Each week we'll discuss the movies, TV shows and ideas that influence the making of Severance.
- [19:50]
Terry Agins
We're going to talk to the incredible.
- [19:51]
Venmo Representative
Artists who inspire us to do what we do.
- [19:54]
Ben Stiller
The Severance podcast returns Thursday, June 26th. Follow and listen everywhere you get your podcasts.
- [20:06]
Lauren Sherman
Another thing that you sort of owned in your career is writing about the development between, the development of the relationships between celebrities and brands. And one thing that I have been following sort of closely, just tracking updates occasionally, is sort of the relationship between stylists, celebrity stylists and celebs. And in Monday's line sheet, I have a little item about Pedro Pascal has switched stylists. He went from working with Julie Regolia, who is a primarily editorial stylist. She works with a lot of men. She does Zenya, she styles their show and collaborates with them very closely. To Jamie Mizrahi, who is, has really good relationships. She has a sort of relationship with Louis Vuitton in particular, but also with all tons of designers. And she's, she, she does Jennifer Aniston, she does Adele, she does Jennifer Lawrence. She's, she's like a big celeb stylist. And Pedro just started working with her. He has a bunch of big press tours and she posted about it last week and it's not anything. It's just a sort of incremental update. But I did think it was interesting because as he's become a bigger star. He is working with someone who works with big stars. Like, that's. That's their gig and helps them get contracts and all of that stuff.
- [21:41]
Terry Agins
Yeah, now that. Yeah, that's the way it goes. I mean, the celebrity. This celebrity relationship with the stylist has been going on now. I mean, when I wrote Hijacking the Runway, how celebrities are stealing the spotlight from fashion designers, that came out in 2014, I think that's also Lauren, when we first met, because you interviewed me, but I watched this, you know, this development go on and on with. And I just saw how important it was for a lot of these celebrities who, let's face it, a lot of them don't have a really good sense of fashion. And they need a celebrity fixer to come in here and help them find their look, find their branding, and keep it going, not just for red carpet, but for their whole lifestyle. I mean, and that has really developed over the years. And so it's really important also for a lot of these celebrities who. Who now want to have their own brands or actually make money on this instead of just being just a billboard, it's really important for them to have an expert, a stylist who has all this access to all these different designers, and they can pull in the right looks and put them together in a way that doesn't look contrived. And the best ones, I mean, when you think of Laurel Roach and these guys, you look what he's done with Zendaya. I mean, these celebrity stylists are huge. And the other thing, too, is, don't forget, if you're an actress or even a singer, I mean, you're not making the kind of money that when we think of Cameron Diaz and Jennifer Lopez, when they had those $20 million paydays doing all those movies, they're not making money like that anymore. So nowadays that this is the only way for them to monetize their fame is to really, like, latch on to, you know, this whole celebrity branding with them as fashion icons. So this is something that is really important. And finding the stylist, you know, who can really help, who can really understand them. I mean, even I'm thinking about Michelle Obama. And even though she's not planning to do any fashion line, I mean, look what Meredith Cooper, that relationship with them has. Has really given her a new identity. She wanted a completely different identity from what she had at the White House, and she's been able to come into her own with the help of the stylist True.
- [24:12]
Lauren Sherman
I think their relationship is so unique and is a great example of. Clothes communicate so much and no one understands that better than you. But if, if you have the right stylist. I also see a lot of celebrities these days switching up stylists. Not because there is sort of, I think with this reli. This situation with Julie is. And Pedro is a good example. Like you just move into a different part of your career and you, or you need to, you just want to change it up. It's sort of like at all the brands, they change shoe designers all the time because they don't want the shoes to sort of you. You need to mix it up and, and add a new layer to your brand, your personal brand and all of that. And there are certain people like some celebrities have stylists for daytime and stylists for red carpet events. There's, you know, this woman, Dani Michelle does a lot of, she does some red carpet too, but she does a lot of sort of daytime styling for some of the bigger influencers and celebs. So I think that part of it's interesting too. One person who does not employ a full time stylist, as far as I know, she actually did at some point work with Jamie Mizrahi. I did a piece about it, but they don't work together anymore. More is as far as I know, maybe, maybe they're all hiring it for me, who knows? But is Meghan Markle, who has been once again in the news in the last week about as ever, her brand that is this partnership with Netflix. They were going to release a new batch of jams and flower decoration, cookie decorations and teas. And there's been a bunch of reporting done. Rachel Strugetz over at Line Sheet did a piece about as ever and the sort of relationship Megan has with Netflix, which I wanna explain to you and see and get your opinion on. Cause it's really unique. But also this week there were just. There was a lot on the Internet. Essentially, as you mentioned to me before we started, people are mad because the jam is runny. Cause it's actually which, whatever, who cares? The other thing they were upset about is the fact that this stuff is being produced in the same factory or, or white labeled by the Republic of Tea, a big kind of mass brand. The thing that I wrote in Line Sheet, which is quite obvious is like everybody knows that this is the only way you can produce stuff en masse. If everybody wants their jam, if everybody wants their tea, she has to work with one of these bigger factories. Like, this is how Trader Joe's makes everything. They work with the same factories that all your brand names at your grocery store work with. And it's just called white labeling and everybody needs to chill out. But the thing that I think is interesting and I think potentially just shows a lack of long term insight is so Meghan and Harry really need to make money. They, for, they have a lot of expenses. The royal family doesn't pay for their security. They've been cut off in certain ways. Like they have to make money. That's why they have this overall deal with Netflix. But the way that this, as ever brand is structured is. And Rachel did a bunch of reporting on this, it's essentially a Netflix brand that they. I don't know the specifics of the contract, but it's definitely not, it's not even a license in the traditional way where she's just getting a cut. And someone who. It's not a brand management firm. It's Netflix itself is managing this project. And I get it for like Bridgerton, which is a franchise for them and they're going to make all the merch or whatever, whatever show you watch really well.
- [28:17]
Terry Agins
Yeah. Because it's kind of seamless.
- [28:20]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. But for like Meghan Markle, who needs to make money, this brand is attached to Netflix. Like, do you think it's a very unorthodox way to do something? As someone who she could sell, she could make beauty products, she could make clothes, people would buy anything she made. In my mind, it would have been smarter for her to work with like eccentric brands which does the foster sister's favorite daughter. Or to raise money and do like something along the lines of skims partnership where you have operators.
- [28:54]
Terry Agins
But, you know, let me, I, I remember and I wrote about this when the Kardashians got started, you know, they first they had their, that, that store called Dash and then they had that, you know, disastrous situation with Sears and they did some stuff with Bibi. I mean, you know, it takes a while to kind of figure out where you should, you know, where is your sweet spot where you can really connect with consumers. And, you know, finally Kim figured out that, hey, you know, I'm big on my whole thing with the body, so of course, why don't I, you know, jump into that? And that was really smart with her, with Skims with Megan. You know, I don't know. I mean, that TV show was, I loved the series. I thought it was really cute. It was, it was, I mean, it was a little bit contrived. But it was fine. And it was all these hacks that, that we all like to know about when, you know, taking a recipe or taking some little decorating touch with even the flowers, the edible flowers, and using sprinkling those on to make things look good. I mean, I think that she has a lot of great, cool ideas here, but to turn this into like a really big business, it's going to take a long time. And also, I don't know if they're. If the issue is that they're in a hurry because something like this is kind of organic. It's gotta catch on.
- [30:19]
Lauren Sherman
But the thing is, they are in a hurry.
- [30:21]
Terry Agins
Yeah, they are in a hurry.
- [30:22]
Lauren Sherman
They really need money. And they also, you're right, like this thing is selling out. Everything's selling out, but she doesn't have any control over it. So, like, they are. The thing, the reason Skims has worked is because Kim has the Jens and Emma greed who are, who are operators. Yeah. So the thing that I just don't understand, like, I just don't understand their thinking. I understand what you're saying about this is a sort of warmup, but it just seems like for people who, there's. If she wears something and it's all wrinkled and looks insane, people buy it. Like, people just love her. And there are a lot of people who don't like her, but there are also a lot of people who do. And it just feels like doing this project with Netflix, they didn't even launch the product at the same time as the show. It just feels weird.
- [31:19]
Terry Agins
Yeah, I felt that was off too. Cause it should have. You know, after that show was over, everybody you were thinking about, ooh, I want to try out one of these jams or something. You wanted to buy it, like right now. And then there was that lag time. So I agree that they missed it, but, you know, I don't know how experienced Netflix is with doing something like this. I mean, this is when you're talking about this, you know, trying to tie the celebrity with, you know, with the right product, with the right manufacturer and everything, you know, that's. That's a heavy lift and it requires a lot of experience. So the other problem for Megan, bless her heart, is that, you know, she's in this fishbowl. I mean, everyone is just picking her apart at everything she does. And so everybody's watching all the haters, all these people who just, I mean, when I read a lot of these, the social media posts and, you know, and people go and talk about her relationship with Harry and everything, which has nothing to do with, you know, her making, you know, this Sun T on her TV show. So. But it's just that, you know, she's. She's gonna be subject to a lot of that and a lot of that really, that scrutiny. And so it's, It's. It's hard for her to, like, quietly kind of make mistakes on the side and kind of figure it out because everybody is scrutinizing. But it'll be curious to see, but, you know, time will tell. We'll see if, if, if, if the products are selling. You're saying they are selling?
- [32:50]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, yeah, they all sold out. I mean, I don't think she's making enough. But that's. Again, this is the thing. Like, a friend of mine ordered one of the jams and they emailed her and said, sorry, it was over capacity. Essentially, they didn't have as much as they allowed to be processed. And they said, we're gonna give it to you for free when it does come in. But then they actually, then they still charged her for shipping, even though she's not getting it. So it's just. I think this is the thing. It just feels like it. This was. I understand. I think that the model that Netflix has built, this sort of consumer product division, and I think it's very smart. Like, this merch stuff can become huge. Especially, I mean, look at Marvel and, and superheroes and all that stuff. Like, it can be billions of dollars a. A year in sales. But I think with this project in particular, if I were her, and the problem I think she has, and I know this from doing a little reporting myself, but also from Rachel's reporting, is that she doesn't have a consistent group of advisors around her because she thinks she knows best. So she ends up, and she's very smart and very savvy, but she ends up kind of cycling through people. And a lot of these people still, I don't know, admire and value and like her and want to help, but she doesn't have a sort of team in place. Like, she doesn't have a Kris Jenner who's like, let's find. She doesn't have a business. She doesn't have a momager. She doesn't have a business advisor who is, who is, you know, connected but not in it day to day, who can advise her. And I think the problem is they've just been. I get why she would do this and sure do a brand with Netflix. But then also she's friends with all these Billionaires, they would give her money just like do some have someone help you build something so you can make a very significant income quickly.
- [34:54]
Terry Agins
Yeah, well it always in all these kind of situations you have to get some people who are experienced who, I mean she get to find somebody from Walmart, you know, I mean it doesn't have to be someone who is, but someone who actually knows the logistics. This stuff is really hard to do. And I've seen it happen in the fashion business. I mean, and look what I mean, you look at an empire like Ralph Lauren, which, and we saw Ralph Lauren over the years. Remember when they had all those brands, they had rugby, they had blue label, they had purple label, all this stuff. And then little by little over the years, you notice how they have really now hone this into a few key labels. You know, the Polo Ralph Lauren label is a label that they use that is really basically their moneymaker. They still have collection. And then they took Lauren back in house. That was a department store brand, they brought that in house. You have to have these kind of experts, people who really know how to do this, who worked at, you know, at Gap and, and a lot of the big, big companies maybe find somebody from, you know, an area doesn't even have to necessarily be fashion, but someone who can really, really take this by the horns and, and, and, and make it run on time. And also just to even estimate. I mean, you know, this whole idea of running out of product, I mean that does happen a lot of times when something, you know, when they under produce. But at the same time having people who have done this in some other area will really help you out because that's what you need. Those people are the ones. She's got, you know, incredible style and as you said, everything she wears, I mean I've even seen myself like say, oh, I like the way she put that together. Let me try that out. And so yeah, so she's got, you know, she's a great influencer but you know, she needs a team. You need a really strong team that can really come in and make this thing work on a commercial level. If you want to make money in a hurry especially.
- [37:02]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, great advice. We wish her the best of luck.
- [37:08]
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- [38:23]
Terry Agins
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- [38:38]
Lauren Sherman
Before we we end, I wanted to get your take really quickly. The luxury industry is facing a huge crisis. The you know LVMH's shares are down an insane amount. Bernard Arnault went from being the richest person in the world to the seventh richest or sixth richest or something depending on which list you look at. Caring's shares are have are a third of what they were three years ago. It feels like and I talk to obviously talk to a lot of different people in the industry. What's going on here? What I see quite a bit is a sense of the Chinese consumer has changed irrevocably, is probably not going to shop the way they used to. Also everybody has too much stuff. Everyone who has a million handbags is kind of like I don't really need another handbag. There's also the second hand market has disrupted everything where you can just buy all this stuff secondhand. So it feels more special because there's a hunt. I'm just curious from your perspective as someone who was covering the industry when it was sort of being laid out in the 90s, the industry that we know today, what do you think is going on and do you think that this is just like a blip or do you think?
- [40:00]
Terry Agins
No, I think it's permanent.
- [40:01]
Lauren Sherman
I think it's.
- [40:02]
Terry Agins
Yeah, this is just one of those more and more situations which is just gotten out of control. And the biggest disruptor, Lauren, I think, is fast fashion. I think that the fast fashion, you know, it's this race to the bottom on everything. Cheap, cheap, cheap. And most people, even though everybody talks about sustainability, most people really don't care because they can't afford it. I mean, if you can get an outfit for, you know, 15 or $20, which you can at, you know, at Fashion Nova and Shein and a lot of these brands, then that's where you're going to go. That's where you're going to go shopping. And consumers have less money to spend. I mean, look what's happening. A lot of people can't afford to even buy housing. We've got the issue with health insurance. All that is is eating into your disposable income. So this whole idea that, you know, that fashion, remember we had the big brands and then the bridge brands and people would trade up. Folks don't live like that anymore. You don't. The dress codes, I think, abolish that forever. And even though the industry was able to rebound with the luxury handbags and a lot of the status trinkets, still even a lot of that has been. Has really changed too, because once again, the fast fashion people have found out to make, you know, everything cheap and cheerful. And that's the way people are shopping. So when you have these big, big conglomerates like LVMH and like Herring and they are hoping and trading on that, people are going to. There's always going to be this critical mass of people who are going to want all these clothes. I think there will be, but I think it's going to be smaller. I think I have always believed that the fashion industry, the luxury market place is going to be a lot smaller because remember, I mean, look at all the Chinese consumers now and those in India and places where you're now starting to have a middle class. They aren't even trading up the way that they used to because there was just. There's too much of this stuff. It was, it was seen, it was really precious and French and, and cool and everything when you could only get it in a few places. Well, now you can buy it everywhere and then you've got the counterfeits and there's just too much stuff. And I think a lot of people, and you see a lot of young people also are saying that they don't Want to live this way. And we are also seeing how it's contributed to all of the pollution and climate change. All this is affected because of all this overproduction. I think there's something 100 billion pieces of garments are made every year, and 20 billion just, you know, they're just floating around. They're going to the Atacama Desert and all these different places because there's nobody to consume these goods. And so I think for the luxury market, you know, even though there are a lot of wealthy people, I just. I think it's going to be harder for them to make the kind of money that they used to. And fashion businesses will be. There will be that always that group of people who can afford those goods, but they will need to. I mean, if you think of the brand that. Like a Prada, for example, I mean, they still make a lot of money. And they're, you know, the black nylon, even though they've got all those other. Those other luxury goods that, you know, make. Someone say, said it was like making a movie to sell popcorn, that you need to have, you know, this couture umbrella to be able to. To make everything seem precious. But I don't know. I think consumers. Consumers are. They're no longer as. They're just not as gullible. And. And I think people have become very jaded. We all know too much. We know what's in the sausage. We know how this is made. And, you know, people are just, you know, people are living differently. And so I think all that is, you know, this whole mystique about, you know, the red carpet and fashion and those celebrities. Those people will still be able to be the arbiters of style and taste, and they are still always gonna seduce us. But at the same time, I think it's not gonna have the, you know, you won't have the potency that they did, like, you know, in the 90s, in the early 2000s, when. When you had to have certain things. I think people are just. People are different, and that's a challenge for the industry.
- [44:41]
Lauren Sherman
Terry, thank you for your words of wisdom. This was so fun. You have to come back soon.
- [44:46]
Terry Agins
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we can talk about everything. It marvels me. I loved covering this industry at the Wall Street Journal for all those years because I got to watch all this develop. At the beginning, I saw the companies make mistakes. I saw designers come and go, and I also saw all these new categories. I mean, who would have thought that beauty would be such a big deal? That it is. That it is now, and it's fascinating. And they're always, you know, for all the people who are out here trying to make money, a lot of them are going nowhere. But every once in a while, somebody strikes gold, and it's pretty exciting. And so, you know. So, you know, continue your. Your excellent coverage, Lauren. And, you know, you're doing what I did, you know, getting in here and. And getting behind the. The curtain to find out, you know, who are the players and how much of this is. Because there's a lot of, as you know, there's a lot of psych.
- [45:43]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [45:44]
Terry Agins
A lot of. At a. You know, and a lot of exaggeration, but, you know, you know, to follow the money and to actually see who's wearing what. Who's what people are buying and actually, you know, what brands and designers and labels are really connecting. And so it's always a fascinating industry, and I love covering it and talking about it.
- [46:06]
Lauren Sherman
Well, as I always say, Terry, I wouldn't exist if it weren't for you. So thank you for everything. You're the best. This was so fun. And we'll talk very soon, I hope.
- [46:15]
Terry Agins
Okay. Excellent. Okay. Good luck.
- [46:17]
Lauren Sherman
Thanks, Terry. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman, and Bob Tabador.