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A
Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show is legendary casting agent Greg Krellenstein, founder of GKLD and member of the misshapes. We're talking the state of celebrity fashion campaigns, the golden age of Don Hills, and so much more. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries line. She is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News slash Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. I am rounding out my week in New York. I had a great dinner with Swap Commerce last night at La Vo d'. Or. As always with Puck, private dinners. The conversation was off the record and it was fabulous. I can't tell you anything. I do love doing these things because we sort of huddle with the partner, whoever we're working on it with, decide who to invite, give them a real reason to be there, go forth, hope people have good conversation, maybe do some business. It feels very effective and efficient and we always do it at a good restaurant anyway. I love it. Well, I'll invite you to one soon if it makes sense. Don't beg me for an invite. In other news, lots of stuff happening this week. A big giant rush of Conde layoffs that I only started to get into on Wednesday, but there's more on Friday. Plus Sarah Shapiro joined the inner circle on Thursday to check in on the state of the department store. Really looking at the rise of Bloomingdale's as a real competitor against Nordstrom and Saks Fifth Avenue looking at how Nordstrom is changing its strategy with its privatization. I also dug into the exit of Olivier Roosting at Balmain, the end of LVMH's negotiations with ABG to buy Marc Jacobs, and plenty more. I will see many of you next week in Los Angeles. There are a ton of events. I'm doing two speaking gigs and we're also doing a big Stories of the Season event. Puck Oscars related stuff. I'm interviewing a bunch of costume designers, but more about that next Tuesday and I hope you enjoy this conversation with Greg. Greg Krellenstein, welcome to Fashion People.
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C
Thanks for having me, Lauren.
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A
Okay, so what'd you have for breakfast this morning? Still early here in la.
- [05:12]
C
Yeah, I had my typical matcha latte, macadamia milk shot of US Espresso.
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A
So when you are traveling as you are right now, how do you get that macadamia Nut milk available to you?
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C
I gotta find someplace really special because it's not the easiest to find, actually, but I have my spots. Not the easiest to find, though.
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A
No. I am a very particular. I like almond milk, specifically. I'll do a macadamia nut milk if I'm desperate, but I like almond milk, but only, like, either homemade or a few brands of almond milk.
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C
That's even more particular than me. I'm a little.
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A
Yeah. Because I'm not a calafea girl. I don't. I don't mess with that. I can't deal with it. I would love for them to advertise on the podcast, though, so I could be one.
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C
Yeah.
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A
What are you doing in la? Just project work stuff. You just got back from Paris?
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C
Yeah, I had actually two really big shoots. One. Well, actually both I'm really excited about. One will be a very exciting issue for a special project that I took on this season, and one is also another special project with a big pop star. So I'd say coming back from Paris, this was a real sort of, like, continuation of, you know, the fashion and celebrity that we just witnessed for the last, I don't know, month.
- [06:42]
A
Yeah. So you're a casting director, but what that means has changed a lot over the years. But I want to talk about you because. So the reason this happened was I was working. I did a little item about a casting for a company called Old Navy that. You don't need to comment, but I know I've heard you've worked with in the past, and there was just like, a lot of. Like, who cast this one commercial they did. And a lot of stuff about Greg kept coming up. You need to talk to Greg. Greg knows everything about this world. Greg is. Is the king of casting. And also, I said you were formerly in the Misshapes, which you are still in the Misshapes.
- [07:29]
C
Yes.
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A
So I definitely saw you at. What was that? Not Sway on Sunday night. Did you guys do that?
- [07:36]
C
No, we never did Sway, but I attended it quite frequently.
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A
Well, we definitely were probably together there. I probably went twice because it was Sunday night. And even back then, I was like, I can't believe people go out on Sunday nights. But then I remember going to. What was that club? Don Hills.
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C
Don Hills, which was across the street from it. Yeah, it was a weekly party that went on kind of simultaneously this way. And I guess we were. At the time, I would say I guess we were. We were a little. Slightly younger. Slightly younger fan base and slightly, you know, younger ourselves. But we always, you know, love that music. And, you know, we were, we sort of viewed ourselves a part of that, but we were a little bit adjacent and kind of, you know, I guess talking about DJing was kind of, you know, I never, I never really aimed to be a casting director or a dj, frankly. And I kind of got into both of them somehow.
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A
So tell me, how did you. Let's start with how you ended up in New York and like, got into this world in the first place. Because the misshapes were a huge. I remember there was a piece on you in Nylon magazine and I was living in London and I read it and I was like, I'm missing out on this situation that's happening in New York. This is probably like 04 or 05.
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C
Yeah, exactly.
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A
But, like, what were you. Did you go to college in New York? Did you grow up in New York? How did you end up in. In this world?
- [09:08]
C
Yeah, I would say I grew up. I was born in Brooklyn, lived in New York, lived in New York for sort of the younger part of my life and then came back there for college. It went to NYU for Communications Media Studies. And while I was in college, I, you know, I guess I, I interned a lot. That was kind of the best. That's kind of the best. I don't know what I learned in college apart from the of, you know, knowing that I wanted to be in New York and I wanted to be close to an industry which I thought at the time was going to be more film based. And that's kind of where I started doing film publicity. That was actually my first two jobs and in the industry. And then simultaneously to that, you know, I always, like, going out. I've always been really into music and nightlife and I think, you know, I met some friends at a time where you could just meet people, going up to people in clubs and being like, hey, like you're at the same party as I am and we see each other every single week and. But none of us knew each other before. We all, you know, Jordan and Lee, my partners and that we all literally just met at night. And I would say it was sort of at the advent of the beginning of social media through social media networks. Like, you know, at the time it was MySpace and then it was Facebook and then it was Gawker. And, you know, I think we all, I mean, especially Jordan really saw the potential of sort of like how sort of these online photos of these people that we, you know, shot every single week that we had in this photo gallery of people really Kind of propelled these people. And actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I guess it was sort of my first exercise in casting because we sort of actually had this sort of gallery of photos that ran every single week that different outlets picked up on. And. And there were. There were nicknames for these people. And these, These weren't celebrities. These were just people that went out in night, you know, and then people were just people that were our friends, friends of friends. And then it gradually sort of expanded in just the way that nightlife could at that time, where, you know, some celebrities could go out to clubs and, you know, they weren't photographed in the way that they are now. And, you know, we always say it was sort of like. And, you know, we did this piece for W recently where we had a kind of, kind of do like a look back at this and look back at the photos. And it was kind of this, you know, that last moment of going out without your phone, really. And. But yet everything is really also well documented at the same time because we have photos from every single week of that party.
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A
So can you break down for people who aren't familiar with this? So you were in this DJ group called the Misshapes. You did this Saturday night at Don Hills, which is like on the. The western edge of Soho. And I remember going. Probably when it was not. It was like towards the end of your cycle, but because I'm not very cool, but I remember going and thinking it was a cool. I think one night I went, Madonna was there. Is that possible?
- [12:15]
C
That was the biggest. Yeah, that was. That did happen.
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A
But so there was. So you all. You did this DJ night and then you have a photographer there too. Was it Mark the cobra snake or was it.
- [12:27]
C
Well, we had those kind of like those kind of documents, documentary like photographers that came co all the big websites at the time. But we had our own person that wasn't necessarily famous, but he would document everyone against a black, like a black wall, a white wall. And that was kind of the signature look, I guess, of all the photography.
- [12:45]
A
And then did you work with a PR firm to release the images or did you just have like an email?
- [12:51]
C
Never, we just posted on the website.
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A
Oh, wow.
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C
And it was literally. And then it would be picked up on like Gawker or stuff like that, and people would kind of make fun a little bit of like some of the people and have commentary and, you know, it was pre Instagram. It was, you know, and I think at the time, none of us, you know, nothing that we did was ever pre. Like, we didn't know that it would have this ubiquity and ever like live on as it did. But yeah, it was pre Instagram, pre social media.
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A
So what for. For those listeners who did not experience this, can you talk about the gawker like 2006 to 2010, that era, the pre Instagram pop culture died in 09 type vibe of like what was it like to be a part of that cultural moment in New York? Because it was. Who was I talking about recently with about Julia Allison and someone said they ran. Did I hear this on a podcast or I was maybe talking about it with one of my friends. Cause my husband was a tech reporter and I was. We both worked at Forbes. I was writing about fashion and lifestyle stuff. And I remember someone. It was just like this thing of. She was so famous. Her and Jacob Lodwick were so famous on Gawker. And you all were sort of in that too in a different scene. But like similarly Lionizer, like made characters in the world of New York. What was it like?
- [14:29]
C
I mean they had nicknames for us. I think that like it was so funny because I was always known as the other guy because I was sort of a little more low key than the other two. Mostly because I. And I still feel this way. I'm really not. I've never been really fully comfortable in sort of like that kind of front and center role. I've always liked being behind the scenes. And I think because I always had a full time job the entire time I was working at a film studio at the time. So I think I always sort of like, it was always something that I was part of and I mean, I think. But going back to your question about Gawker, it was just like, it was really just like this crazy, you know, a media site that at the time documented local sort of New York quote, unquote, celebrities, I guess what they be called, you know, influencers now. And kind of like, you know, said some pretty mean things actually in a way that, you know, you can't really talk about people anymore and you don't talk about people. So I'd say that kind of thing, that kind of. It was. But it was all in good fun and it was very tongue in cheek. And I think at the time we only realized, we only saw it as a tool to kind of like it helped build. To kind of build the brand and help build us up. And you know, I think when we ended the party it was kind of at a, you know, the right time because we started getting a lot of calls from fashion brands actually to DJ parties. And it was funny. I'll never forget the first time I. And the first time we went to Paris for Fashion Week was actually to DJ the event. I don't remember, but I do remember staying at hotel cost. And I know that that was probably the nicest hotel that I'd ever stayed at at the time. And we sort of unlock this world of like going to Fashion Week at times when there were real after parties for brands and like seeing what it was this time. I mean, it's such a buttoned up, you know, definitely more of a very different world. But at that time, these fat. And we. And there are some photos that we later created a book of all the images from Misshapes. And a lot of the. There were. Part of the images were from sort of Fashion Week outings and just like having sort of that other network of Paris, because there were also kind of like sister parties that were happening in other cities that were around that were kind of the same mentality. And we would, like, partner with the DJs. And that's kind of how I know, like, you know, like Steve Aoki and Mark Bronson and like going to, you know, the parties in LA that they had. There was a similar thing in la.
- [17:01]
A
What was the thing in Paris? Le Baron or something like that.
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C
Exactly.
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A
Yes.
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C
And also kind of how we know. How we know, like Jason and Chris from, you know, how long gone. Also at Cinema Space in la. And it was sort of this network. Oh, yeah, this network of DJs. Exactly, exactly. Like, you know, and kind of seeing how everyone sort of grown up.
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A
Have you been on how long gone?
- [17:24]
C
Never.
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A
Oh, my God.
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C
But they've talked.
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A
I got them again.
- [17:28]
C
But they've talked.
- [17:29]
A
I got them again.
- [17:29]
C
They've talked a lot about us. And it's so funny, I think the first time, like, they mentioned our names and I, you know, I know I know them socially, you know, over the years, many years. But I think, you know. Yeah, they've never been a rude. Yeah.
- [17:43]
A
Jason, Chris, they may listen. I mean, Chris never listens, but Jason listens sometimes.
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C
Okay, good.
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A
He might. I'll mention to them, I'll be like, you gotta have Greg on. But I'm glad I got the scoop. I got the exclusive with you. So you're doing this. You're living, working in New York, you're doing this DJ thing. You're working in film. How did you become a casting director? And what did that look like when you started?
- [18:08]
C
I Was working at Fox Searchlight at the time, and I got a call from a company called starworks, which at the time.
- [18:16]
A
Rip, man, rip does it. Starworks. Ramon Kia. So many funny names.
- [18:24]
C
Wow. Okay. I mean, yeah, we can go there.
- [18:27]
A
Justin Padgett also worked at Star Wars.
- [18:29]
C
I mean, the thing is, it was really a great company, you know, started by really smart people and everyone. I actually just saw a couple of former colleagues in the lobby at Chateau Voltaire in Paris, and they all have their own company. And you're just like, too many people.
- [18:46]
A
Were at Chateau Voltaire in Paris. I can never go back. I went to, like, have a drink with a friend, and we ran into, like, 45 people. Like, we gotta leave.
- [18:55]
C
No. And I asked. I'm like, what are you guys doing? They're like, too many people. Too many people. They were waiting for a celebrity to come outside. And, you know, I'm like, nothing has changed between this. But I would say, like, you know, the company at the time was pretty revolutionary. They were sort of, I think, one of the first to sort of recognize kind of bridge really Hollywood and fashion. And I. I was kind of a. You know, I kind of followed the company because they were also represent. I'm a huge magazine reader, always been. And they were representing a lot of the magazines that I read a lot and a lot of kind of niche fashion publications and worked with really amazing photographers. And I sort of followed their journey. And one day I got an email from someone who works there saying, like, would you be interested? And, you know, I thought it was really exciting to sort of, like, transition into that world of sort of deciding and being a part of kind of who kind of who would be in the magazines. And that was kind of. That was kind of the first start of it. But, you know, so really it was really Star Works.
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A
So what was. So Star Works was like they had a PR part. They had a kind of marketing agency where they did performance marketing that might have been later on, but then they also. Did they also have, like, what. What was the Hollywood element of it?
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C
Yeah, the Hollywood element was the owner. One of the part owner of the company, Alana Verrell, was. She represented Ashton Kutcher at the time.
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A
Oh, I remember this.
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C
She was a Mormon.
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A
Do you remember fascism? Yes, I was just. When you mentioned. That's so funny you mentioned Ashton Kutcher, because when you were talking about pre Instagram, I remember this. I was. I thought, oh, I forgot about fascism, because I know Brooke Moreland, because I'm friends with my husband is Friends with her husband, Joe Wiesenthal. And so when she was doing that app, her and her partner, I think her name was Ashley, where it was like, basically you'd put two outfits up on the app and be like, which outfit should I wear? And that you could. Mark, do you remember this? And Ashton was an investor in it. Sorry, that was it. No, but this is all connected.
- [21:15]
C
Yeah, no, it's all connected. And I think, like, they. So she. I think at the time was she ran, I think, the men's division of Next Models, where she represented him. And I think she kind of helped, like, bridge him into Hollywood. So that's kind of like. And I think when she got there, I mean, literally, like, you know, talking at this place as if it's like Hollywood and, you know. But it was very foreign to a lot of fashion brands. Like 20, you know, whenever they started their company 25 years ago or whatever it is now. And yeah, it did have this kind of arm of casting, which was the main thing. And then, you know, they kind of bridged into all sort of necessary parts of the industry. Editorial, just working with magazines, casting the celebrities who would be in the magazines. And then it kind of expanded to, like, vip. That's where I met Justin, and that's where I met so many amazing people who sort of. Because they really did recognize the idea that, like, which, again, is so commonplace now, is it was more than just the celebrity showing up for the photo shoot. It really was, how are they going to integrate this, you know, the brand into their career, into the red carpet, into the brand strategy, into the talent strategy? So it really was sort of like something, again, that's so basic and common now, but I think something that they were very instrumental in kind of starting.
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A
What was an early example of a project that you worked on that sort.
- [22:39]
C
Of.
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A
Felt like it was the start of that, because now what you're talking about is just so commonplace. But I remember when it was still like a big deal to cast a celebrity in a campaign, that type of thing.
- [22:52]
C
Yeah, I mean, they were very responsible, I think, for the. When I first started in a lot of the early Mew Mew ads with, you know, when. I think it was like, at the time I think I got there, it was like Selma Blair and Evan Rachel Wood, and then it was like Kim Basinger one season. And then it was like Kirsten Dunst and Lindsay Lohan and Katie Holmes. I think we even did. I think, like, there was just like. It was just a series of like, kind of these Celebrities and fashion brands. And that was like a huge part of my knowledge and kind of understanding. But also, it was kind of. Also the. The real sort of like, bigger picture was kind of understanding. Okay, like this. The creative agency and the stylist involved was also involved in maybe magazines, which was their portfolio. And that's how we got involved in doing the casting for the magazine. So there's definitely more of a. There was definitely a very strong conn connection between who is in the campaign and what covers they would be doing and what show they'd be attending.
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A
That makes sense. And, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned Mew Mew, because I feel like Miu Miu and Prada were just really very smart early on about how to recruit new talent and think about new talent. And to this day, obviously, but like so many of the other big houses sort of of emulated their strategy with working with people. And she was never afraid of celebrity, which I think is. Is Nutra Prada, obviously, I'm speaking of it is so integral to the brand. Like, it's such an intellectual brand, but she's not. She doesn't fear famous. And that, I think is so unique. And. But at the time, like, the. I just. I actually just wrote a piece about the sort of changing face of celebrity campaigns and things a couple of months ago and was thinking about the fact that like, even. Even 10 years ago, it wasn't like every single campaign was a celebrity. And now it feels like that. What. What do you think changed? Do you think that, like, as. As ROI has become more measurable, that having, like, making sure you're getting the right impact with the exposure from a celebrity that a lot of people know who they are has become more important to brands. Like, why do you think that has happened?
- [25:18]
C
Yeah, I mean, I actually don't think much has changed. It's. I mean, it's such a competitive marketplace and I think always like, kind of dressing the right person or putting them in a magazine cover, I think still matters. And there obviously must be some kind of metrics that translates into sales. I think the biggest shift has probably been this, which shifted is the range of personalities that you're ton are talking about. Whereas, like, every single brand needs to have not only the marquee star, but the K pop star, but also the upcoming star and the influencer. And I think that we're. You know, I think the first campaign that we worked on that I felt like kind of did set this trend and was we worked on the Mike Calvin's campaign maybe a decade ago. And that kind of I think established like a very new norm of all this kind of what you're talking about, this kind of multi level ensemble casting which included as you said, the notable personality, the very A list star and I think even to also that that campaign which has been such a short that you saw during fashion week having quote unquote, you know, what was once known as street casting, which is now better known as real people casting. I think that brands also need that and whether that that's influencers or kind of how it all fits in but I think it's the bigger picture is kind of bigger than, than just that one person now.
- [26:42]
A
So you know how the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade is basically the kickoff to the holidays. The floats, the music, the cozy vibes of it all. Well, this year Macy's is hosting another kind of parade and this one's for the deal hunters. It's actually called the Parade of Deals and it runs through November 27th. Every single day Macy's is dropping a brand new limited time deal. We're talking one day only savings on everything from home essentials to those splurge worthy gifts. Here are a few. The Dyson Big ball turbine head canister vacuum because if you're cleaning it might as well feel luxurious. And the Ninja BL660 blender for your smoothie and soup era. Oh and that classic ugg fluff throw.
- [27:27]
B
Perfect for skipping the turkey trot and.
- [27:29]
A
Cozying up to the parade instead. Plus they've got got 30 to 40% off fragrances from Marc Jacobs and Gucci, 30% off Sunday Riley and even diamond studs under $1,000. Every day's a new surprise. Start checking the Macy's app for the daily deal like it's a little morning ritual. So don't miss out. Check out Macy's Parade of deals now through November 27th. How has the kind of idea of street casting changed? Like how do you do that now in this world where no one feels anonymous almost?
- [28:09]
C
Yeah, well I think exactly. I think it's like street casting is now like what I would call real people casting. And the truth is when like a brand asks for that, it's really just like a different level of notoriety. I don't know that you can find someone that you'd want to cast at this point that'd be attractive to a brand that doesn't have a following of some sort of. And that doesn't, I think again that's sort of an outdated, it feels to me like streetcasting is an outdated term. And I think, I think what we've kind of learned and what we see all the time is that just like the definition of celebrity has just expanded and changed.
- [28:45]
A
And what are you looking for when you're casting someone? Like, obviously the brand's gonna come to you with objectives. How do you meet those objectives in a way that feels like it's also meeting the moment? Because I'm sure you have brands that come to you and say, I want this A list celebrity. And you're like, that sounds awful. How do you figure out, like, how do you meet the brand objectives and also like nail it on the casting? Because I'm sure it takes a lot of, I mean, A, you have to get the person you want. B, you have to get the right person. C, you have to make everybody happy. How do you, what's, what's your sort of strategy?
- [29:28]
C
Yeah, I mean, I'd say we don't really take a one size fits all approach to any project. It's really, you know, a part of the curation. And again, like, I think like once you've noticed a trend, it's then it's already been reported. Like the culture probably has already moved on. So I think often we're, you know, we're kind of asked to tell the future, which is always fun. Where is this actress going to be in 12 months? And I think having the crystal ball of knowledge from working with so many amazing magazines, kind of working those like 12 months in advance on stuff, it's kind of the strong foundation which kind of what we lean on with the clients. It also can help with negotiations because we could identify, I think we're also looking to identify talent very early on. So when a project, and at this point, again, when a project, even an A list project gets announced at this point, often the talents are almost already secured. So it is, I do think it's become a little bit harder. And I think also, of course you're also working with brands that will always want the A list. And you know, that's really interesting at a time when it's been so hard to produce mass cultural celebrities to kind of fulfill the needs of the marketplace right now. And maybe that's what you're talking about when you think it's kind of at a peak. Because really I think what you're talking about is actually trying to fulfill the needs of these top tier brands to have A list stars in a time where a list stars are maybe different in what we thought about 10 years ago. And then you think you look at something like Chanel with Nicole Kidman, you're like, maybe it's the same. So it's, It's. It's a really interesting time right now.
- [31:06]
A
Yeah. I think that the Chanel strategy so far post, I mean, in the Mattu era is interesting because it's. They've got Nicole Kidman, Maya Rudolph was at the show, is working with them. I don't know if that's official yet. IO Edebiri, obviously, is the incredible people. Yeah, incredible people. And also she's. I mean, I think she's the first official person they've announced. It's interesting. I mean, I'm curious to know what you think of IO and Greta Lee in particular, because to me, obviously big fan of their stylist, Danielle Goldberg, and also big fan of both of them from their work and all of that stuff. But they are so interesting to me because Greta is obviously now an ambassador for Dior. She's very close friends with Jonathan Anderson. I think he and she used. Not used each other, but they fed off of each other as their stars were rising. When he was at Loewe, she was doing past lives and all these films, and they kind of rose up together, and IO was also part of that as well. But the two of them are so interesting to me because they're obviously, for me, like, exactly the person I want to see. They're the. That's who I want to see in a campaign. But they aren't. They're indie film actresses. They're not in Mar. They're not Cyrilla Johansson, who does a mix of Marvel and indie. They are. Right now, I know that Greta's in this Tron movie, but who's seen that? I haven't seen that. I don't. I don't. That doesn't have anything to do with my life. So. But it's interesting because if you look at, like, Dior, they have Greta, they have Mia, Goth, but they still have Charlize, and obviously Rihanna sort of fits every bill. But then Chanel, the same thing. It's this mix, like, it sounds like to me, it's that cast of characters thing that when you're budgeting, you have to think about the fact that, like, okay, yes, I need to get this person everyone's heard of, but I also need to get the person that, like, this one particular cohort that might be really good to recruit will be engaged with. And that sounds like a lot of it's. Do they rely on you? Do the brands Rely on you a lot to advise on. Like, what should my strategy be?
- [33:27]
C
Okay, what I'd say, like, describe, you know, discretion is always kind of part of the process, and. But it usually is similar, you know, in a brand or a magazine when it comes to us. Like, we're usually asked to provide a casting based on the brief and, you know, the team's direction, and we kind of come back with, like, a list of ideas. But I think, you know, why you're looking at those particular people and those particular brands that are doing it. What I think, you know incredibly well is that, you know, the most important thing is that it really feels authentic to what these brands and where sort of the career is kind of like, as you're saying, these. A lot of those talent have kind of grown up with the brands now, and it feels very authentic. And even if they're not the biggest names at the time, it does feel transparent a lot of the time when, you know, when a talent's doing something just for a check. And I think that that's really the most challenging part of doing this job, because the best partnerships are always when it appears kind of, I would say, seamless. And also the imagery, links with the talent and, you know, the brands. You know, the brands sort of where they're sitting in both of their careers, and I think where you're sort of kind of pointing to those particulars, you're talking about people that have also inherent personal style, and it doesn't feel forced. And I think that's what's such an incredible marriage for those brands, and they're very lucky to have them.
- [34:48]
A
Do you think that the brands understand the fragmentation of culture and the fact that, like, I mean, I'm sure this is a sweeping generalization. So, like, I'm sure some of them do and some of them don't, but generally, like, how much are they thinking about that part of it? Because to me, I think about all these YouTube people that, like, Mr. Beast and shit, who I've literally, I only know about because my husband has written about them. Him, you know, like, there are all these TikTok stars. There are. Even within celebrity culture, there is so much fragmentation. We live these very individualistic lives. And so how much do you think the brands get that? Because sometimes I do see a campaign where, like, they hire the most famous person in the world, and you're like, ooh, that's not the right person for you. It's so obvious that you need to not. That needs to not be it. And I'm Just curious how you. How you like manage for that. And also if you feel like there is a sensitivity among the. The brands that didn't exist even five years ago that because of the. How fragmented everything is becoming, I think that they.
- [36:09]
C
I think that they do because I know that the kind of. The intention of the celebrities is also different as well because the celebrities kind of know, like, I think. I think. Think that part is actually the more interesting part because I don't know that it's the. That it's always the brands that are making decisions because I think the celebrities are also knowing how strategic they have to be to kind of get these contracts. And they're so financially success, you know, so financially fulfilling for them that I think there's a. I think there's kind of a. There's kind of a marriage between both of them and I think that there definitely is intent. I. I would say people are doing something more intentional now that. Than what they were doing five years ago on both sides. So I don't think anything's an accident. I do think that a lot of these kind of seeds are being planted early on and I think. I think in terms of like. But again, I think where it kind of goes the most that kind of goes the best is when it really does feel like there's a genuine connection between the designer and the tower. And you can sense that.
- [37:14]
B
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- [39:08]
C
Yeah.
- [39:10]
A
Can you explain how you work with magazines and how that is. You sort of touched on the fact that it's a feeder into these campaigns. But I'm curious, especially now, given the sort of precarious state of print, how do you work with them? What do they rely on you for? Are you fulfilling the role of the sort of celebrity wrangler as you as used to be Jill Demle Deming at Vogue type Vibe? Or is it, are you brought in more on specific projects, that type of thing?
- [39:47]
C
Yeah, I'd say the magazines that we work for, I would say we're kind of an outsourced entertainment editor mostly because it's something that some of those magazines I guess would traditionally do themselves. But I think having a third party with a bit of knowledge and you know, the network of relationships that we have kind of removes the stress of finding, of helping them find and negotiate with, you know, the talent and the kind of the magazines can just rely on the creative and make sure that the rest of the negotiations are handled. So by the time we get on set, they are, you know, the shoot goes seamlessly. But I'd say the role of print is, it's interesting because I actually think it's become almost more important because when the brands are not, are not advertising in the same way traditionally they're kind of using these kind of print, these, these particular, you know, I work in a lot of niche magazines, I would say, and still very tastemaker cultural important ones. And I think that the way that the brands are using them is kind of, you know, their outlet to do something more creative. And I know. Well, funny, I listened to Jen Brill who, you know, we both know, I listened to her episode before and she was kind of saying that like even when a brand part, when a brand comes to a magaz for partnerships, you know, you're able kind of in the editorial space to do something a little bit more creative than what they would do in the traditional advertising. So I think it all works together in a very holistic picture. But I think. So I think to. I think the role of magazines is probably just as important, especially in the way that magazines are brands now. I mean, not only, you know, the magazine that Jen works with, Homegirls, but like, I would say, love Homegirls. Yeah, great magazine.
- [41:28]
A
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- [41:33]
C
But I think that, like, you know, I think that all these magazines, you know, with their social channels and the brands using them to have events and I think. I think the idea, you know, I had a project once, you know, recently come to me about how the magazines are not just magazines anymore. They're really kind of fulfilling the space for brands to have sort of have this other outlet to really do something, emotion, you know, in real life. So.
- [42:00]
A
Okay, two quick questions on the celebs. I don't want to keep you too long. One is, has the way the publicists. I mean, obviously you have great. You're a nice person and you have great relationships. I know a lot of these celebrity wrangler people who used to work at these magazines. It sounds like the worst job in the world to me. Like, it's like a very stressful thing. Has the relationship between people like you doing the casting and publicists changed over the last few years? Is just feels like. Because I think. I think that the importance of all this fashion stuff to celebrities has gotten bigger as their paychecks for movies have. Has gotten smaller. And so do you feel like the. The dynamic between. And in. In one way, they need you more, right? They need. They need the campaign, but in the other way, they have their own Instagram account and they can just post and they don't really need to be on the COVID of Vanity Fair anymore. Like, they. They can be. And it's interesting, like Gwyneth Paltrow doing it a couple months ago, I thought was interesting, but it's not. It doesn't. It's a different. It's a different thing. Do you feel like your conversations with. With the celebrity publicists and teams and agents and things has changed at all over the years?
- [43:22]
C
I think that they realize the value of excellent imagery still being, you know, kind of like pumped out through the. Even if it's through the channels. I mean, what I will agree with you on is the. The way that the power of celebrity has changed, like, you know, in terms of, like, using the cultural shift. I think of using like their even hair makeup or having more of an input or even approvals. But I'd say the process is definitely still the same. And I think what, you know, what we try to offer is always to just to be, you know, smart, honest, and I guess trust and trustworthy, I think, and I guess always available. Because, as you know, the agents are, you know, there's a lot of. There's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes, behind. When they. Before they actually get in the camera. And I think that. But I think that they do realize the importance. Like when I would call, I don't know, like when I first started, like 15 years at V magazine and say certain names, I think they would get like, you know, they would literally be like, what does that stand for? You know, And I think that, like now kind of everyone sees the role of all those magazines in just sort of like the bigger wheel of the celebrities promotion. So I do think it has gotten a little easier as talent have also realized that that imagery is what's getting them the campaign. And that actually is the one thing that hasn't changed, is that they still know. I think when I was at Star Works, sort of like the thinking. And I think what we always said was having those images taken by those top photographers and landing on the creative director's desks in Milan or Paris somewhere is still how they see them. It still is how. Everyone's busy. Yeah, everyone has, like. But so I think there's still those mass channels. Like, I don't definitely don't discount the importance of a Vogue or a GQ cover either. You know, you still see. It's what you see.
- [45:12]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I thought these vogue covers with I.O. and Nicole Kidman and. Who was the third person?
- [45:19]
C
Greta Lee.
- [45:20]
A
Like, Greta Lee. I mean, that she looked.
- [45:22]
C
Oh, incredible.
- [45:23]
A
Yeah, she's so beautiful. I mean, all three of them are. But so.
- [45:27]
C
So.
- [45:28]
A
Okay, two more quick questions. One, I have written a lot about, and I know you're not an agent, you're not a manager, you're not negotiating these rates, but, like, I've written a lot about this sort of amount of money these brands are willing to throw at celebrities for these big campaigns. And I'm curious from your perspective, do you think the brands need to be a little more like. Because the thing is, it's great. I'm happy for all my friends in Hollywood who are making a shit ton of money because they're like, here just. You have to spend this amount. But then I'm like, are these brands really thinking about what the return on investment's going to be here? And it feels like a lot of times they don't know and they're like, we have to just put all of our marketing money towards this because we know it works to an extent. Nothing else works right now. And they're just throwing large amounts of money. It reminds me of in Hollywood when the. The paydays got really high and then they eventually, like, sort of went back down. They've got generally the bar was raised, but then like kind of trickle, it got. It went back down again. Do you think that, like, from a pricing perspective, it's gotten out of control? I mean, I don't know if you have an opinion on this. You might not care.
- [46:46]
C
I mean, what I say is, again, like you, I'm happy for everyone to get more money. So if our friends in Hollywood and our agents are getting a bigger commission, I think that's great because I think that in terms of whether the ROI is exactly translatable, I think just the element of the global ubiquity of celebrity, I think has just gotten so much bigger. And I think it is the thing that you still will see on the feeds whether Gwyneth Paltrow and Demi Moore at the Gucci show. It is, you know, and I think, I think even just going what we just went through for Paris, like, friends would say, like, oh, how was the collection? I'm like, I didn't see the collection. I saw the front row, you know, I saw. So I just don't think you can underestimate that. So I think for the brands, and it's funny because I listened to you actually, when in Milan, and I think you were actually saying that you think it's at peak. And I was kind of knowing what I was working on in Paris and kind of seeing what was gonna happen. I'm like, she has no idea. Like, it's.
- [47:47]
A
No. Well, I mean, here's the thing. I will say I love the pro. I think Prada, I love that it's like their entire front row is celebrities. And I think that it's the right way to do it. Like, I don't think, I don't judge them. I support that kind of way of working. But I think everyone always thinks it's a peak. It's the peak. Like, you always think, I've had enough. And then next week there's more. But I guess the last question for you would be, what are you working on next? Like, what do you think? I know A lot of your job is proprietary and having this secret sauce that you kind of can't reveal to me why you were so smart to cast Lindsay Lohan in the Old Navy commercial. But. But what are you working on in the next year that you feel like is going to change in this market? Like, how is the market changing if celebrity's not going way, if the need for, like, a list isn't going away? What do you think is changing?
- [48:49]
C
The. The trend is always, you know, the trend will always be bigger, better. And I think that is something that there could be a peak to. But I think that, like, what you're saying about the peak, I don't think we've reached the peak. And I do think that, like, that somehow there will be, like, there are tons of brands that are getting, that are signing more ambassadors by the day. And I think in terms of what we're working on really is kind of, I think, refining the strategy. More importantly, more importantly than actually even than expanding it. I think a lot of the products we're working on coming up are really about kind of finding a way to sort of like, if you're. Even if you're a smaller brand, to kind of how do you compete with the bigger ones that have all those a listers on contract? So I think what the most interesting thing is kind of to kind of build kind of a new identity from a brand that even if, like, they're. They're a brand, a legacy brand, I think that kind of carving out their. Their own unique identity will kind of be the biggest challenge that we're working on, but I think the most exciting one, because you can always be the bigger brands with the bigger checks. But I think where we kind of fit in best is when we're asked to sort of like, help with repositioning or help with kind of expanding the brand's language that they kind of already have. And it's great. The collection is also beautiful as well.
- [50:15]
A
Craig, it was such a pleasure. I'm so glad we finally met.
- [50:18]
C
Yeah, me too.
- [50:19]
A
I hope we can meet in person soon. And congrats on all your success in the DJing world and the casting world.
- [50:26]
C
Thank you.
- [50:27]
A
And thank you for being such a big part of my life without ever introducing yourself.
- [50:34]
C
I hope we can meet soon.
- [50:36]
A
Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.