B (3:40)

Thanks, Lauren.

C (3:40)

Hi, Lauren.

A (3:42)

Happy end of year.

B (3:43)

Happy end of year.

C (3:44)

We made it almost a nice non denominational declaration. Happy end of year. We've allided past happy holidays. We're at happy end of year now.

A (3:54)

Well, we all celebrate. We could say Merry Christmas. We all celebrate Christmas.

C (3:58)

I do not celebrate Christmas.

A (4:00)

No, your last name's Gallagher. Jacob.

C (4:05)

My father converted. Hanukkah is over. But, but Merry Christmas all.

A (4:09)

Oh, man. I'm the only one.

B (4:11)

No, no, we celebrate Christmas in my house. We're.

A (4:14)

I'm the only one here who doesn't celebrate Hanukkah. Yes, I did celebrate this year, but not. I'm not. I have no affiliation.

C (4:26)

Affiliation. Yes.

B (4:27)

Well, we've moved on. It's honestly, once you have kids and you do all the holidays, you realize it's, it's too much because we just got off eight nights of Hanukkah. Now we're gonna have Christmas. My son's birthday is beginning of January. We're just like in Toy Overload.

A (4:42)

Very exciting. Okay. One of the, one of the reasons I want to have you both on is because you used to be colleagues.

B (4:51)

We did.

A (4:52)

And, and we have a nice little tech, a stressed out text chain that we engage in once every few months, the three of us, which is nice.

C (5:01)

I feel like the text chain really reveals how much. How the extent to which we are all shoppers because I feel like we mostly. We begin talking about news and end up talking about stuff and buying stuff a lot of the time. I think, I think Becky often steers us in that direction.

B (5:17)

But, you guys, this is my job.

C (5:19)

I appreciate it.

B (5:20)

Don't blame me.

A (5:22)

It is your job. It's true, Becky. But I would say that every text chain I have with Becky turns into, should I buy this? Right, right, right, right.

B (5:30)

I really appreciate that people come to me with that level of trust.

A (5:35)

Well, you know why? Because you are honest. I've also asked Jacob for advice occasionally. I usually don't listen to him, but it's usually if I'm already talking to him about something, I'll be like, should I buy this? Like, once I was at Charvet, and I asked Jacob if I should buy a scarf, and he said no. And I was like, I'm buying it anyway. And hours later, when you woke up in New York, you told me to buy it. And so I was like, see? I did the right thing. Look at that.

C (6:04)

Look at that.

B (6:04)

But Jacob is often my guiding light, whether something is gonna be cool or it's over. Like, I need him. I need, like, his voice in it too.

A (6:15)

Well, we're gonna talk about some of the trends of the year that Jacob made up. And also you, Becky. You both made some trends up.

C (6:22)

Oh, totally. You have to. Come on.

A (6:24)

Okay, so let's start with the big news of the year. There was a lot of news. I don't know what I'm going to do next year, guys, because there isn't going to be as much news. I already broke the news of 2026, early 2026. So I don't know. I need some people to get ousted. I need some people to be fired immediately so I have something to write about. But so there were. I think it ended up being 12 to 15 designer debuts, depending on who you consider to be worthy of even acknowledging. I thought the Times actually did a really great feature that was, like, all the designers debuts, and Vanessa asked them. Jacob, I don't know if you participated in it too.

C (7:13)

No, that was a Vanessa project that she really just crushed. And I think it's now an amazing. It's already become a historical artifact because at least one of those people has already lost their job. But it's really, really amazing and really goes to show, just to kind of brag on behalf of my coworker, who is probably, I think, the only person that could have pulled that off. Like, really an amazing, impressive thing to bring all those designers together.

A (7:41)

I agree. And I think the thing that was so Vanessa Friedman, we're talking about for anyone, the thing about this. So basically what she did was she asked every single designer who was doing a new collection in September, October to answer six questions that had nothing to do with fashion, which was the smart way to do it. And it was really insightful and gave a lot of it. It showed who they were as humans. And I thought that was just really smart and clever. And I kept referring back to it, and you could just see. It's interesting because as you mentioned, Dario Vitale, who was the Versace designer for one season, his answers were really overwrought. And it ended up being after his debut and talking to him backstage, he was amazing and really, really smart. But I remember thinking, ooh, this guy is so green. Because everyone else had very simple answers and responses and confident. And his were extremely in depth. And I'm having trouble finding this. This piece, but I need it so we can go through some of our favorite debuts and. And what we think they say about what's going to happen in the future. Fashion's historic shake up. Here it is. Okay, Obviously, this year, there were the reason this happened. Let's just. There were, I don't know, 12, 13, 15, however you want to say it, designer debuts. The reason this happened is before COVID the fashion industry was. Had this big bubble that had to do with it becoming the center of pop culture. People were buying stuff like crazy. They were buying stuff they don't need. They were buying it like, as if it was Zara and just shopping, shopping, shopping. Covid happens wipes out a lot of that business in 2020 because nobody can shop. 2021, there is a massive rebound fueled in the US at least by these stimulus checks that people who had jobs were getting. So you make $90,000 a year, and then you get a stimulus check and you buy a Louis Vuitton wallet or whatever. The numbers went up past. I was looking at some 2021 numbers from Chanel. They were up like 19% from pre Covid because it was just like, no one had anything to do in 2021 except go shopping, because you couldn't really leave. 2021, 2022, this giant boom. It was totally fabricated. Like, this would not have happened if not for the pandemic. 2023, still happening. 2024, not looking good for brands that are selling people crap. And so there was a sort of crisis within the luxury groups. And 2025, it really, really happened. Like, LVMH stock dipped in July massively. Bernard Arnault's family lost a ton of wealth. And there was just a realization that consumers were not going to go back to the way they were, they were not going to just be force fed stuff as if they were foie gras. They wanted nice clothes that they actually wanted to wear. I made my villain of the year the customer because they just wouldn't buy the stuff that people were selling them. They just refused to. There's saying they have standards and this is globally anyway. The first thing that these executives do is change the designer when this kind of stuff happens. And so there are 12 debuts for various reasons of people, old and new, people we knew, people we'd never heard of, people we wished had got these jobs finally did. When you look back at these, at this group, who do you think really succeeded? Who do you think failed? I'm not going to tell you who should jump in first. Just why don't you start talking.

B (11:42)

I think it's Michael Ryder for Saleem. He has changed how everybody wants to dress, how they want to style their clothes. I mean it's palpable, I think in men's and women's. I think it was huge.

C (11:56)

I don't know if I'm that hyperbolic on it, but that was who I was going to say. I think that that is. He was the one that I felt this has the most potential, this has the most. I felt like he came into that role and he changed from what the previous aesthetic was in a very coherent way. Like you knew it was him, but it also, it felt like it wasn't going to alienate the client entirely. But it also was just excitement. And I think a few of these, looking at them, I'm like, wow. A few of these really fell on their face, in my opinion. And a few of them were just kind of really blah. And I think at least one of them, I think we're having a mania about right now, but we can kind of get into that. But I think Michael Ryder is the one that I'm the most curious of kind of going forward from here.

A (12:45)

I agree. I think in the end it is the one that is the only one that feels look like. I know the mania is about Chanel. We could talk about it, but. But I think that's really important too, but in a different way. What I will say about the Michael Rider and I wrote about this yesterday is. I agree. I think it's priced right. I think it's fun. It is. The Europeans like it, which is something that a lot of the Europeans have not liked. The Chanel, obviously the majority of people when you talk to them, don't like Dior. But the Europeans are are into the way he styled things. It feels American, but it feels like it just feels of this time while pulling out the things we appreciated about fashion when it was just about fashion and not all this other stuff. But it was interesting. A client who also works in the industry messaged me and I quoted. I blind quoted them the other day in my email where they said, look like the product itself looks good. The little. The scarves are 600 bucks. But like when you really see it in person, they were like, I'm not buying that stuff. And this is a person who look, everybody has an opinion. But I think this comes back to like why I made the client the villain. Because like no one. You can buy Repettos, you can buy these things. Like I think there is a group of people and I think Celine's going to be successful in that it's going to. It was down 40% this year. I think it's going to come up from him and people. There's a lot of goodwill. But the point being that I'm just not sure that any of these brands are going to be able to fix the problems of the bigger industry. And so while I agree, I do think whether or not people buy the clothes is going to be a question.

B (14:53)

I also think we'll see. What you're saying though about, you know, not all of this can be solved is sort. I emailed you about this because I felt so strongly after reading your newsletter yesterday about creating this client who is the villain is that there's no way people can fix it because nothing is priced to allow anyone to participate anymore. So it's not necessarily this client's fault. There are so few clients left. You know, when we were talking about those furry Gucci loafers, they were. I'm. I would feel strongly that I think they were under $1,000 with the fur. Yeah, at this point that would be priced what, 15, 17 hundred dollars. So there was an ability for everyone to buy into a plain Gucci loafer at priced at 560. Now it's probably priced at 980 or whatever. You know, I think we're at this point where like obviously none of these problems can be fixed because no one can participate, which we can get into later. And we can get into vintage later being a year of vintage. We can go back to designers. But I think everyone needs to have all of these brands need to really figure out what their pricing strategy is for people to participate. Because right now like no one can accept this. 0.00001% client. So how is it going to get fixed?

A (16:15)

It's very true. And obviously, I mean the, as I said to you Becky, like the idea behind there's another villain that, that permeated this this year. But I'm going to be writing about them so much next year. It felt like almost too serious. But my point was sort of like these, it's not these people's faults, it's the fact that like they just aren't, they're just not buying what these, these brands are selling anymore. And, and the pricing is such a big part of it. I messaged you about a Celine a cat plaid cashmere and I was like is that the plaid shirt we want? I thought the one we wanted was $1300, not $3300.

B (16:54)

Right.

A (16:55)

And because it's cotton but like still like the fact that we're just talking casually about a thirteen hundred dollar cotton shirt when Charvet shirts are four hundred euros, like is, is a, is an issue. And, and it, I think a lot of these brands still have not come to terms with the fact that if they priced it a little bit more carefully they would, the volume would go up like crazy. But I don't know, you know, I'm not doing the modeling.

B (17:24)

So are they all scared to be the one to do it?

A (17:27)

Well, I think, I think the problem is the really, really rich customers are still shopping and so they, they think we'll see how the demna Gucci is priced. Because Gucci is probably the, the biggest example of going too expensive. If it's priced a little bit more carefully. I think that it, it can be very successful. I don't know about you all, I know we're talking about the debuts but I thought that that pre fall collection was awesome.

B (17:53)

I was gonna say that was my, my, my biggest surprise. I was so excited about the Gucci. It looked so good. I was really excited and I was not expecting much.

C (18:03)

Yeah, I think, I think like. Well, first of all, I think I agree in terms of pricing that when we, when Lauren, you asked us to do this that was kind of my, the thought I was trying to formulate which is like I think something's gonna happen in the next, in the next year. Something has to the pricing across the board. Like even in. Let's set aside luxury as we're discussing it here. Like this wave of Japanese brands that have become the most exciting thing in menswear. They're all priced. I mean I remember Lauren, we've talked a little bit about this off mic. Like I remember When Visvim pricing went really, really high, you know, five, 10 years ago. And then that kind of Visvim then, I think killed its own momentum because of that. That seems small potatoes now compared to what a Presse is doing in terms of its pricing and how much excitement and hype is around it. And, you know, the way that this, this. This wave of brands that. That seems really worthy but is really, really expensive. And I think that the bottom will fall out eventually on that. I think people are going to get sick of it. I think that, again, my perspective is much more like, just from like the kind of guy shopper that I speak with a lot. They're burnt down on this. They're like, why is this so expensive? And why this now feels so unattainable? And I think that's why we've seen Ralph have such a successful year, both in. In terms of actual sales and in terms of cultural permutation. It feels like attainable luxury again or attainable aspiration, which I think people want more of. And I'm waiting for more brands to kind of figure that out. With that said, I agree about the Gucci thing. Like, that is, I think at this point, it's now kind of like you have to have two picks from this group of designers. It's like you have the surprise pick, which I think was. I don't want to say surprise, but it's like Michael Ryder kind of making a name for himself. But. But Demna kind of. I think with the, with what he's doing at Gucci is just reaffirming that he's kind of the designer of this generation. He's able to evolve, and he. I really like what Gucci looks like right now. And I'm really curious. And I was at a party this weekend and someone said, well, you just. You just are liking Tom Ford Gucci then. And it's like maybe, maybe, maybe that's what it is, and maybe there's a little bit of nostalgia there. And I get that. I will admit that I'm guilty of that, and I think we are all a little guilty of that. But I also think that he's progressing it. He's reflecting back on it, right? And I like that he's reflecting on kind of the cultural. The way that, that, that Tom Ford Gucci cut through culturally, it's. It's legible to the wider world. And. And I stack that against what I think is happening a little bit with Jonathan's Dior, which is that he's looking into the archive Too much and it's too fashion. I hate to say nerd, but fashion kind of nerd person. Like you have to be really, really advanced level to get what he's commenting on. And it's not working. I think because of that or it hasn't worked at least thus far.

A (20:58)

Yeah, it's too cerebral. Really quickly on the demna. I think the thing that people don't get about him is that he is so good at taking other people's ideas and making them his own. That's like Margiela Balenciaga. Like the thing you couldn't really see the Balence. A lot of people were like so offended by him putting like sweatshirts in couture or whatever. But like he's such a good designer that he could do that. And it just takes, it's like it's very, very subtle and on the surface sure, that looked like Tom Ford but like he has just a little extra And I think when you say he, he's the designer of that generation. I agree. Like I think it's not. I've never wanted anything. I kind of wanted those Vetement jeans. I never bought them. But wait, the split jean? Yeah. I mean, yeah, I wrote a story for off duty. I wrote a story for off duty when you both were still there about like am I too old to wear like merch or whatever. And I mean I was. This is almost 10 years ago but. And it was, it was. And I mentioned the vet mones but I, I pre ordered a skirt from the Gucci thing. I was like, I begged them. I was like, can I pre order something? I've never asked to pre order anything from Gucci in my life, that's for sure. I wasn't buying the Alessandro loafers no matter what, fur lined or not. But I think you're right and I think on the Jonathan thing I. It's too ser. I think the accessories in the bags are great and I do. And I think that the jewelry is amazing and I do think it's going to sell and we have to remember that there are clients who want. I just. At the Chanel after party it was clear to me I don't know what these people want, I never will. But the clients want like pink acid wash denim skirts and stuff that he's making. I think there's a client for that. But I, I personally thought the pre fall looked prettier.

C (23:09)

I agree.

A (23:10)

Dior is a pretty. Dior is pretty. Dior is supposed to be pretty. I don't care what it is. It has to be pretty. And I thought it looked prettier and so. And also, like, I just. I kind. It didn't look as. As. As sad or. Or mean or something. And I think he's just. It's. He's too in it. And. But you have to. We just have to remember that, like, taste varies, et cetera, et cetera. But I agree. I don't think it's there yet, and hopefully it'll get there. He's. He is definitely the marketer of his generation. And I think the advertising and the marketing has been amazing.

B (23:49)

I think, too, this stuff is not in stores yet. We have to remember, because I actually had a conversation with a client, said client yesterday about this, who wanted to change her Dior pre order. And the more she looks at it, the more we were picking different pieces. And as I look at it more, you know, the Runway collection, it does need to be taken out of those, like, Napoleon hats. And it's very aggressive. There are. It is pretty clothes, and there will be pretty clothes to be worn. So I do think it's going to be really curious to see how style evolves once all of this clothes. Once all of these clothes hit stores.

A (24:32)

Yeah. And let's see if people actually buy stuff.

B (24:34)

Because at first I was like, I'm not sure you need to pre order from this collection. Now I'm like, actually, maybe you do need the little tweed suit. Maybe those gaucho pants are the best version of a big gaucho pant. You know? So things are settling in.

C (24:49)

I just want to make the point, though, because Lauren, you said he's the marketer of his generation. And I think that what is to the detriment of how these clothes are being received, these two collections in particular are being received thus far, is that it's not. It doesn't look that great on the celebrities that are wearing it. And I think he didn't really have that problem at Loewe. Like, at Loewe, the celebrities are what kind of sealed it. Like, I think, like, the celebrities. And there was a. Well, particularly to me, on the men's side, there was just a lighter touch.

A (25:17)

The men's side. Yeah, you're right.

C (25:19)

In terms of. And he would bring these kind of. I don't ever want to say unexpected, because they're celebrities, but he would bring kind of a weirder group of celebrities, of guys, of male rising stars to the show, and they would be dressed in a way that could sometimes just be really what was in the store, the commercial line, you Know, a zip up leather and some jeans and a pair of loafers, and they looked great. It felt very, very effortless in a way that I think right now because of how directional even the men's is, it feels a little too contrived. Like, I wrote recently about kind of the tie thing. That's that kind of. He really perpetuated enough of this, like, enough of the tie backwards and the tie undone and the tie done up and this confused knot. Like, it just needs, I think, a little bit more ease. That is not there yet. And I do see, though, more in the men's than the women's. What I love about him and will continue to love is just that level of ambition of being like. I have something to say about how people broadly should dress very similar to Demna, I think, where he's kind of saying, I'm commenting on broader clothes, I'm commenting on what's happening, not just with what the Dior client. A word that I will try to use very little this time because I don't know as much as I think you two do on what the client wants. But I think that I'm very curious of how he continues to kind of iterate upon that. I felt like the men's did it better than the women's in terms of saying, I've said this before, like, the men's said something about how men broadly should dress. The women's, I think, didn't say something as clear. And so it was a harder sell to me. But, yeah, agree.

B (26:56)

I think that's one of the things we have to compartmentalize is we want to dress with this sense of ease and we want to feel just really calm, confident and have our clothes sort of fall away in a, you know, in an intentional way. But we have to remember too, clients have a lot of places to be and they want to be really dressed. And that's really hard. Those are. It's very hard to do both of those simultaneously.

C (27:19)

But I think there's ways to do that and not have it feel like you styled yourself within an inch of your life. Like, I just think.

B (27:25)

I agree because I also think it's too costume y. I agree. But I do think.

A (27:29)

Yeah, I think the thing. Thing to remember is that this is at one point, I think it was a $10 billion business. It's much less now. It may have been 12 billion and now it's 8 or something because it. It has gone to the. So he is. The red carpet stuff is a great example of like showing how Hard this job is in reality because all the people he pulled into Loewe are now famous. Like Greta Lee is famous. And in. In the era of. There's not going to be Leo DiCaprio and Julia Roberts anymore. Like, Greta is a star and that's as big as they're going to get now. But like she is really famous and she's still niche. So he's dealing with like he has to do Jennifer Lawrence and he has to do this person and they have to dress a million people. They don't have as big as of budgets as Chanel, like much less big of a budget to pay the celebrities. And so there's, there's that he has all these relationships with people. He. Like that the messiness of the red carpet is a clear example of he's working all of his crap out in front of us. And so whereas at Loewe. I don't know about you guys, but like the first three years, I remember people talking about how he was copying Phoebe, which, like, now you think about it and, and remember when he did that sort of the. I'm not thinking of the word, but like Dali. Like the. What's that art called?

B (29:09)

Surrealist.

A (29:11)

The surrealist collection. And it like turned Loewe. It was like right before the pandemic. But before that. I mean, I loved it. I was buying it. I have a lot of older Loewe stuff. But like he could figure that all out. No one was watching. Especially because he got. Did that bag that did really well this time. It's like every little thing and him and Peter Utz trying to make the celebrity stuff work. And they. They had like, it's wrinkled. It's. It's everybody. Everything's raining and. Whereas Chanel is a much more. And maybe we can get into the Chanel of it all and why people are acting crazy about it. Chanel's a much more. It's a private company and they spend money differently than LVMH. Like LVMH. If, if you are. If you're down 40% at certain stores, if you're down 40% at Avenue Montaigne, you are not going to get a giant budget. Like, if he's successful, he's going to get whatever he wants. And I think he's going to be successful ultimately. But right now they. It's still. It's still new. And he's. And also he's managing this J.W. anderson stuff too, to an extent, and also doing these costumes for these movies. So it's a Lot, but, like, the Chanel of it all and how they manage. I'm not saying that their red carpet has been more successful, I think slightly more than Dior, but it's been clearly more calm the way it's been managed. And I think, for me, the reason I had such a strong emotional reaction to the Chanel and Mattie Blasey's first collection was, yes, I like it. Cause it's, like, the kind of stuff I like. But I also just felt like it didn't feel pandering to anyone. And it also didn't feel like do or die. It just was like a really fun fashion show where everybody was like, I love fashion. Like, why can't more stuff be like that at this point? Like, a lot of the collections this season, I felt the weight of the pressure from the business pressure or the pressure to, like, create and innovate. Like, Glenn Martin's Ready to Wear Margiela was really. I thought the couture was good, but it was really disappointing. And I actually talked to Vanessa about it at the Hermes show because I was like, the couture looked really good from I wasn't there. And she said from afar. And she said, yeah, it was really good. But, like, the Margiela show, I love him. I think he's hugely talented and super smart. I thought it was not good. And so I think there was just so much pressure. And why I liked Chanel so much was that it was just, like, about pure emotion and not. Not, like, make or break for this brand, I guess. I don't know what you all felt.

B (32:09)

I would agree about it. Didn't feel like there was that pressure there. It did feel like everyone just wanted him to succeed. And everyone felt very happy and supportive. All the brand ambassadors. The room had good energy. It was less. I'm nervous. What are we gonna see here? It's more like, this is great. What are we gonna see here?

A (32:29)

Yeah.

B (32:29)

To put it simply, totally.

A (32:33)

Jacob, how are you feeling about it?

C (32:37)

I. I just. You know, I've not been to any of these shows yet. I. I think. I think that there is. It's just so I. I feel like I have the ability to kind of watch the reaction a little bit from afar. And I think there's just something funny. Very indicative of, I think, how the hive mind can really set in around a certain designer. I think we had that with Jonathan for a while, and then the hive mind turned a little bit on Jonathan already. And I think. Lauren, I just want to go back to your point of Like, I believe that it's really going to work. Like, I think. I think Dior is going to absolutely work. I think there's just this thing that's happened where he's not the shiny new object anymore. He's not kind of the, for lack of a better term, indie darling that he was at Loewe. And so people are more. It's more easy to lob criticism at him now, I think, which I think is unfair to an extent. As for Chanel, it's like, I just haven't. I haven't seen that stuff up close, but I think, you know, looking at it online, I don't quite get it. In the same way, I think they're. To me, the collections thus far, they. There is a lot of artistry. There's a lot of craft. There's a lot of really beautiful stuff in there. There really is. But mixed in is a lot of product. And I think that there is a certain sense of denial that's happening amongst people, being like, he's the most creative guy ever. And it's like, well. But you could also see within here that, like, he has to appease a lot of different tastes, let's say a lot of tastes that might not be the greatest. Like, there were things in that New York show in particular that I was kind of like, this is not. Like, this is not cool. This doesn't have any finesse to it. This is just, for lack of a better term, not to just distill this guy's skills down to this, but, for lack of a better term, merch. And that kind of goes to show you can't always control who's buying your stuff. And I think he has a consciousness of offering that to people. But I think that I don't like this narrative, that it's like, whenever there's this narrative that's like, he's the greatest since sliced bread, I'm like, have we thought about that entirely? Like, everyone just kind of gets really frothed in a lather about it. And I'm like, okay, sure. Like, but how many times have we done this to ourselves now?

A (34:54)

I don't know. I hate everything. Like, I generally hate.

C (34:58)

That's not true at all. That's not. You don't hate every. That's not true. That's not true.

A (35:02)

I hate most stuff. That's disingenuous. I have issues with most stuff. The thing I will say is I don't. I think there's a lighter touch with the merchant. I agree. I'm not Saying, look, like, what I like and what I don't like has nothing to do with it's. It's just what I think. And. And if I think there is some. Something, I don't think he's saying anything big. I don't think he has some, like, big agenda. The reason this made me feel good was because he didn't have a big agenda, that it was just about clothes. And yes, there is merch, and there are good bags, and there is good stuff. And I also think I will say I wasn't at the show in. In Paris. I was only in. And I love the show in Paris. Watching it online from the airport, like, trying to get home to my child. But, like, it made me feel good, and that is something. Whereas a lot of these collections didn't make me feel good. I thought Celine made me feel good. I thought. And I thought this made me feel good. Like, there weren't that many collections this season that I was like, oh, this just feels good. And it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be so complicated. Like, it wasn't the. The virginy stuff, if you want to talk about. Like, it's just mer. Like, that was just merch, and it didn't look good, and it didn't make people feel good. And so I think. But the thing I will say about the. The subway show, I thought, honestly, it did not photograph well, and if you had been there to see it, it did make a difference. Like, there was tons of stuff in it I didn't like, and there was tons of stuff I did. And I think the point being is, like, this isn't life or death with Dior. It literally feels like life or death. And we're all like, ugh, is this guy gonna be okay? Is it gonna be okay? Is it gonna be okay? The reason I like this is because he's just making beautiful clothes and also nice bags and shoes and all that stuff. I don't think. I don't feel the pressure. And because of that, as someone that all I'm thinking about is like, are people gonna buy this? And is this gonna be a good example? I also thought from a trend perspective. And, Becky, you can talk about this. And we should talk about Valentino too. Even though it wasn't a debut, but, like, the low waist skirt, the Chanel jacket, like, these are things people are gonna. They're never gonna buy, the $17,000 Janelle Chanel jacket. But, like, these are things. This is going to kind of affect the way people dress. Which is very rare today. Like, I don't think that Michael Ryder is going to affect the way people dress in the same way because he is just reflecting how people are already dressing. But I think the low waisted skirt, I think all that stuff, like that stuff is going to be at Zara. That's going to be influencing. And so I think the thing about Mattu that made me feel so good about it and so happy at the end of that month was like, this is just close. Don't take it so seriously. And you know what? This is also a huge company that doesn't need it can go be down the ready to wear could be down for a couple years. It wouldn't even matter. But it won't be.

C (38:20)

But let me cut in because that, that's kind of. I. I just have to say. Cause you saying that really unlocked. I think maybe what I think maybe why I have a dimmer view, I think on it than most is like what you just said right there. This is a company that could take the risk, that could do something quite big. And I felt like that New York show in particular brought into focus for me. You get the. It felt so paint by numbers. Oh, a subway stop. Oh, an I love New York shirt. Oh, like people just going about their day. Oh, we're gonna get the SNL cast. We're gonna get Sofia Coppola and her daughter. It just felt so like what you would get if you literally mad libbed or not mad libbed. If you kind of like chatgpt, frankly, to use a cliched term right now, if you chatgpt fashion show in New York by a Parisian brand, like that was something out of like a movie. And I think that you should reach higher and to what you said, maybe say a little bit more. Like that's where I was just kind of left cold. Where I'm like, what is really being said here? Because this is not a collision about daily life in New York. This is not. I'm sorry, Chanel client. We've talked about the client a lot. I don't care. Does not ride the subway. And I felt like there was something quite crass about that, if I'm being really candid. And I just didn't enjoy that.

A (39:32)

I felt like, who cares?

C (39:34)

Because that is germane. Because this is. If you come here and you dip in and you dip out like that in a fabricated setting, you are frankly, that's tourism. That's not being. It's a form of gawking that isn't really commenting upon this city. It's commenting upon a very retrograde vision of the city. If you wanna say something cool, say something cool about what the city is right now.

A (39:54)

And.

C (39:54)

And I just felt like that was not very on the pulse. It just wasn't there. Could have. It could have gone so much further.

B (40:02)

But let's remember that Chanel is a kitschy brand and it always has been.

C (40:07)

But think about what Carl did in terms of spectacle. That was something that was much more.

A (40:13)

Carl had. The last show I went to in New York with Carl was at the Met. And it was about mummies in the. In the Egyptian room. Like this. It's. That's fine. I think.

C (40:25)

Why are we classified? But, but why are we. Why are we classifying then? Like, I think that the rosy, the very like, like awga eyes that people have over this right now like it.

A (40:34)

Because everybody likes it.

B (40:35)

No, I agree, actually both of you in a weird way here, because I agree, you have the ability. You should reach a little higher. This is your chance. But also, Matthieu understood the assignment. You know, like, this is the brand. This is what they do. And yeah, I don't. Yeah, the French just don't have the same sense of irony as New Yorkers.

A (40:57)

And that is a thing like that. The French, it. That is part of it too. Look, like, do I think that they would have been better doing it somewhere else? That the lighting was better and that Tom Ford had not shown like five.

C (41:11)

Years ago and that Cortes had not had a, like a random London streetwear brand had not had a pop up where I love la had not just shot. Like, come on. This is like, this is not an inaccessible thing. It just was like people were so like, oh my God, it's in the subway about it. And it's like, come on.

A (41:27)

No, no one cared about that.

C (41:29)

How easy of marks are we? Like, how easy is this? Like, come on, Becky, you.

A (41:34)

You talk a little more because we should move on to something else. But I just. You need to chill out, Jacob. It's not a big deal. And also, it's also, that's the laziest.

C (41:45)

Defense in the world. Like, like, you guys ride for this. You're talking about buying it and you're telling me to chill out?

A (41:50)

Like, I'm sorry.

C (41:51)

I'm trying. I'm trying to puncture the balloon a little bit here.

A (41:54)

Three years from now.

C (41:55)

That's all I'm saying.

A (41:56)

All I'm saying is three years from now, you're gonna look back on this stuff and be like, okay, yeah, it was actually the thing that. That, like, people connected with. I think that I. I just think, like, when we look back, it reminds me, honestly, of the Phoebe stuff. When it first launched, I was like, this isn't enough. And now, three years later, it's, like, influenced so much stuff. I just think, you know, I think.

B (42:22)

In that sense, I was sort of gonna say, like, I don't think he's ever gonna be as directional as someone like Phoebe. I think he understands the assignment of a humongous brand like Chanel. And there's gotta be kitchen. There's gotta be things for she. She people to buy. But actually, in terms of what I think has been so amazing this year, in terms of really, how is it we're going to dress is Phoebe and to an extent, Valentino, which, when I go back and look at the shows, is. Was one of my favorite shows in retrospect, which is kind of crazy. But, like, I. Yeah, I don't. I think his job is spectacle, like, metu. In a way, and he is delivering it because one of my favorite Carl quotes that Minal always used to say to me actually, was that if you want money to walk in the front door, you have to throw it out the window or something like that. So he is delivering that and creating that sort of hysteria that exists online, even if it's just us discussing whether the subway was fun or stupid. And, like, he is creating that, and I think that's the job, but. Oh, go ahead.

A (43:34)

No, I. I think you're. I think you're right, and it's a good point. But we.

B (43:39)

We will never be able to buy into any of that anyway in a way where I'm like, well, we can't buy the Gucci furry loafers anymore or whatever.

A (43:46)

Yeah.

B (43:46)

Like, in terms of affecting how we're going to dress, like, Phoebe is so back with a vengeance.

A (43:53)

Yes. So let's talk Phoebe and Valentino and agree to disagree on the. My thing is it's not even the spectacle. It's just the dopamine hit of feeling good, because there isn't a lot of stuff that makes you feel good. And those collections have made people feel good. And it's like a brain massage. It's all that stuff. I also just think he is not under. You can tell he's not under a tremendous amount of. He's under pressure, but in a different way. And I. I don't think that this should be. I just don't think that this needs to be a bit. Are you so mad at it?

C (44:31)

It's a, it's a brain massage that lulled everyone into not thinking critically about any of it. I mean, there was no, there was, there was not a single dissent about this thing. That was, I'm sorry, I will cease, but I've just, I mean, that's, it's, it's not, it's not for me.

A (44:47)

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C (46:00)

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B (46:28)

Let's get it.

A (46:32)

Phoebe and Valentino. I agree with you, Becky. First of all, the one note I will make is that I did buy a Chanel jacket this fall, obviously secondhand. Me too, for the first time because I was like, ooh. So I do think it's affecting. But let's talk about the Phoebe effect and the Valentino because I was at that Valentino show and I would say there was, it wasn't a great feeling in that room and looking back. It has had a big effect and I think was a great collection and is. Honestly, as someone who I like appreciate Alessandro, but don't subscribe to that. Personally, I feel like it's affected the way I'm dressing and that means a lot, whereas the Gucci never did. So let's talk Valentino and Phoebe and why those were important brands this year. But, Becky, maybe you can start.

B (47:24)

Well, I just sort of think kind of going back to that. We both bought Chanel jackets this fall. I think this goes into the idea that vintage is really the real star designer of this, this year. Like vintage anything. Vintage is what's cool. Vintage is what feels fresh, is what you feel good in. It's what makes you feel unique while there's just so much stuff and it's also expensive. So my vintage Chanel jacket was not cheap, but it's. It feels Matthew coated and it feels. Feels how we all want to dress based on these shows. And I think Valentino did the same thing where a lot of the women who are going to pay Valentino prices, they are not going to shop vintage. So it's a way to sort of buy into this sort of idea of clothes feeling nostalgic. And he just did it in a way that felt very tasteful. And you can see what a good designer he is in that. There's already really good red carpet out of it. There's amazing jeans with a product perfect jacket, which you and I were talking about. The sort of return to just sexiness of having a pair of jeans that makes you feel amazing with a great statement. Jacket is sort of where we're going in terms of getting dressed. And he just had all of those elements. And it, to me, it was sort of that same. He felt that pressure, but he understood the assignment that he really needed to pair back and focus on beautiful clothes. And I don't know why it's registering so late, but this week, going back through all the shows, it just felt really special to me. That wasn't very well articulated.

A (49:02)

No, I. I agree. And I think we. We went to Marissa Meltzer's party together a couple weeks ago and we both wore, like, jackets and I wore pants, but it was still. The jacket felt very Valentino jacket, which, which. And it was vintage. It was 65 bucks. Like a fake Mugler or something from the 80s, whatever. But, I mean, that is a challenge for that brand. Is that the stuff that he's making? He's making the perfect version of it, but it's different from when he launched Gucci, which was like the sort of fancy dress.

B (49:39)

Yeah.

A (49:39)

Trunk.

B (49:40)

Do you think, like, it's just sort of indicative of all of these designers can just do what these designers do?

A (49:47)

Well, I think that. I think a big issue is that people weren't shopping secondhand like they are now.

B (49:54)

Yes.

A (49:54)

10 years ago. And so now it's not weird to shop secondhand. Like, people buy Valentino secondhand. Couture clients buy second tons of secondhand way more than they were. And whether or not the market is as big as people are saying. Someone asked me that question recently, but I think the fashion enthusiast is just shopping it way more. And so the Valentino versus the Phoebe is a good thing to think about, because the Valentino. There was a dress that Kirsten Dunst wore that was like a mix of polka dots and flowers, black, yellow, and white, that I want to get for a wedding. Like, I'm going to try to find it somewhere and get it on sale in because it's perfect. But I would say. And that matters because the fitness is better than. Than the original. And you could find an 80s dress like that, but it won't be as. As perfect fitting. But I think generally, like, again, who has $6,000 for. I'm sure that dress is at least six, probably eight minimum.

B (50:55)

Yeah.

A (50:55)

So. So I think that that has been the challenge with that brand, and they haven't had a sort of breakout accessory to supplant it. Um, and. And we'll see. I hope that. I hope. But I think it was sneakily one of the best collections of the season. And also the other thing was that the models were really thin. And so it did. And usually I don't care about stuff like that. But I'm sorry. But it really was, like, in person, like, a little weird. They just like, you were just like, okay, these people. I don't know how celebrity's gonna put this dress on. Like, Dakota Johnson wore one of the dresses. She looked amazing. But, like, I wonder if they. I don't it. She's extremely thin. But, like, these models were, like, freaky thin. Yeah. But I think, like, when you think about the Phoebe and why it has clicked so much and look like we're not gonna know if it actually worked for a while, because the way that the British registrar works, in terms of filing your revenue, at the beginning of next year, the phoebe numbers from 2024 will be available. So it won't be till 2027 that we'll have the 2025 number. So we won't know how big the business became in the last year. But I think, like, I think it's still a mess because it's a small business run by people who. Who have never run a business before. But I think it has clicked with customers. And the big reason is because it looks new, and she just knows how to make people look modern, and especially in Europe and New York and cities. There's in the bag, too. Like, I. I've seen that. That gig bag replace a lot of, like, the Margot things like that. She just knows how to make people look cool but comfortable. And. And it's really the only brand that I bought anything from this year. I only bought a couple things, but it was, like my big purch. And it. It. I think it's, like, really nice to see someone. She's remarkable in that she's had three times. She's been able to make an impact. And I don't. I can't think of another designer that way. But, Jacob, what have you thought about it? And who do you think on the menswear side is doing what they're doing?

C (53:15)

It's good. I don't have much to say about it because. Because I think, you know, much to my chagrin, Phoebe will never. I think, design men's, um. Though. I do. I do.

A (53:27)

A lot of men are wearing it, though.

C (53:28)

A lot of men are wearing it. I should say this is probably a piece that I should write at some point, but it's. I think it's. I think. I mean, every time I look at it, I'm like, oh, this is so appetizing. And I love how she's kind of doling it out and. Yeah, I think on the men's side, that's such an interesting question. Cause it's. It's, you know, I think much the way I said. Mania, I guess. Mania. I think there is a mania for, like, very simple. Like, I hate to be so base, but, like, men right now feel like very simple consumers. They feel like they want something that is luxurious at a price, but that is very unordained, that is very unembellished. And I think, you know, right now, I think a press is giving that to them. I think there's a lot of. Or Lee attention, but I don't think that there's anyone that has kind of the balance of the prosaic and the confrontational that Phoebe is able to offer. I think men just are different. I think men shop differently, and the men that want that are probably buying it from Phoebe in a certain way. But, yeah, I don't know. I feel like. And I don't want to take us on a tangent here, but I feel like men's is in a quite stagnant. Like, this is just a stagnant moment. I think that's probably why I was so excited, or was energized, I guess, by the Daria Vitale Versace show, because that had kind of the things that I think are really lacking in men's Designer right now. In particular, that had color and texture and challenging proportion. And it had, I think, a lot of pattern, which is something that we just don't see much of right now. And it had verve. And I think right now that's pretty. Pretty absent in a lot of ways. In particular, those kind of lurid colors. And I think those patterns that are meant to challenge, and I think that there is a shopper for that somewhere, but I think that there, right now, you go into a store and things might be the best quality ever. They might feel so luxurious. They might make you look really cool in a kind of contemporary, dune kind of way. But they're not very. They're not. They're not. Not drab. I mean, drab is kind of the mode right now. And I think that I'm waiting on. You know, I'm really. I'm. I'm really intrigued by what Dries is going to continue to build. You know, how that's going to continue to build as. As a business under him. And that is. I missed the last round of shows because I was on leave. And so I'm looking forward to January and kind of. That's a show that I have circled because I think you can always kind of get that spirit at a Dre show that I think right now, I can't count on it being at every show that I go to.

B (56:31)

Jacob, I want to know, what's the men's pants shape right now?

C (56:39)

I still. I still think that on the fashion side, I think that it is still a wider pant. I don't think it's as large as it once was. I think what's. I think. I mean, maybe I'm speaking from. From a personal bias. I think we are seeing a real straight leg jean kind of moment coming back, and I'm trying to figure out if that is a leading indicator that all pants are going to get slimmer. But I think, you know, we're in a classic moment. We just. We just are. And people like that 501 plus, let's say something a little wider than a 501 that feels like where people have landed right now. But I think dress trousers are kind of absent from. You know, it's not like, that's where, you know, I feel like we went through this moment of, oh, the double pleat is so mass that it's hit Todd Seider and it's going to hit Jake. Like, that's not. That's not. That doesn't feel like what the narrative is right now, at least from. From what I'm seeing and what I speak with folks, I don't. I don't have a clear answer. But I also think that this gimmick, this kind of demna era. I hate to say gimmick, but this demna era stance, this demna era mode of just super, super giant pants, like, that's gone like that. That feels very passe already. You know, there are people that will tell you that the Eddie boy is what's going to come next in that. You know, people are just gonna try to find as much Dior homme as they possibly can. I don't quite think that that's where we're going. But, you know, someone like Aaron Ash out of the uk, like, that feels like contemporary Eddie to me in a certain way. And in his absence there, people will look for that.

A (58:15)

I think it does feel like men's fashion is still in the oatmeal phase, whereas women's is out of it. Yeah.

C (58:24)

And I think that men's. Something's going to have to rest men's out of this. I think, you know, I. I give Jonah a lot of credit. I really do. And I. And I think Jonah dictated in a lot of ways kind of what this palette at least looks like. Jonah, there are a lot. There are a lot of guys out there. There are a lot of guys out there that are dressing, I think, in what I would call the blackbird spy plane mode. I think that. I think Jonah does deserve credit there. I think that. That. But I think that we are going to get rested out of this very soon. I think someone will come around and there will be an idea part of the problem right now, and then I will finish ranting. Part of the problem is that there's a lot of gawking at celebrity that's happening right now. And there's not a lot of trickle down, like, in culture broadly. Like, there's just not anything to grab onto and say, like, I want to look like that and I'm gonna. And it's gonna shoot downward. And I know that you might say, like, well, men don't operate that way or men haven't operated that way. It's like, it wasn't that. That long ago that people genuinely. And now his name is hard to mention, but people genuinely thought Shia LaBeouf was super cool and wanted to dress like him. Like, that was a real thing that really happened. I wrote about that.

A (59:42)

That was a check.

C (59:44)

No, no, no. That. That genuinely happened. Like, I think that, that, that, that kind of effect of. I think Kanye still continues to be like the last one that really did have that profound of a cloning effect. But right now it's like, Timothee Chalamet looks very cool. It's really. It's. It's happening good on him. He's. It's. It's. He's got a lot of eyeballs, him. No one is dressing like, no one is taking from that.

B (60:08)

That's a good point.

C (60:09)

But it's cool to look at.

A (60:11)

I think that's over. It's just over. Like, the. The way that we consume culture is so fragmented. I don't think that that's going to exist anymore. And it's going to take a lot longer for something like a narrow leg to come, quote, unquote, back because of the fact that, like, you can do whatever you want and there are all these little avenues that you can. You can go down. The trickle down is much rarer these days.

B (60:37)

It comes and goes incredibly fast. It's kind of like it comes and then we're over it.

A (60:41)

Yeah.

C (60:42)

But my one counterpoint to that, though, is that this was a year in which someone like Jacob Elordi, someone like Austin Butler, they were dressing in a way that, to me, was kind of like the style. The styled version of no makeup. Makeup. It's like they were styled to look like they were not styled. And I think that that had a real. Guys then were looking at that and saying, hey, I kind of want to look like that. I wrote about this. We called it the James Clean effect. There's like a trickle down from, like, those guys to the TikTok guys, and then it disseminated. The problem with that is that that look in and of itself is pretty flat. Like, I hate to say it like that, but it's not challenging. It's not gonna make you look like a guy that cares about fashion. That's the kind of missing component, is that you need someone or something has to happen that in. It's appropriate, I guess, let's say, to look like you care about clothes again. And we're just not. We're not there on men's. We're not there yet.

A (61:36)

Yeah. Well, it's like, kind of like men's is still in the quiet luxury thing, whereas women's has. Has pushed out of it. Let's talk about a couple of the big news stories of the year. You mentioned the Dario thing. Obviously, he got this job at Versace. It was kind of a weird situation where he left Mew Mew and everyone knew that the product was annoyed with him because of this. He gets this job. They do this weird thing where they say that he's not going to do a Runway show. They're going to do a presentation. Then we all go. It's a Runway show. Everyone really liked it. He was fabulous. People were really excited. The sales were up. The private client sales were up. I heard, like, sales in the US Were up a lot. A lot. Double digits, for sure. Prada Group acquires Versace. Two days later, they fire him. Because this was the plan all along. And I confirmed this on both sides that they said they told him that they were gonna fire him if he took this job because they already had someone in mind, and they did. I'm curious what you all think is gonna happen to him. And do you think the thing that I look, upon reflection, looking back, like, I love the collection, but there is a point of, would the Versace customer cannibalize this new Mew Mew customer that they have acquired over the last. Where the. The sales doubled many years over the last couple of years because he was such a big part of Mew Mew's recent success? And so, like, the first point is, do you think they made the right decision firing him? And the second point is, do you. What do you think he's going to go? Because I do think he's going to get another job.

B (63:21)

Well, I had said to you, Lauren, like, my husband had made this. I was trying to explain this to my husband, and he gave me a good sports analogy of it of now he was at the top of his game, and it's a free agent. And so we'll end up making so much more money in the way that athletes do this. Supposedly. I know nothing about sports, but so it's. I loved this collection so much, and I was so sad at this news. But now I do think it's, like, we have this exciting opportunity where he can go and prove himself. And now we know after seeing how amazing Mew Mew looked the last few years, seeing this debut, like, he's an amazing designer. And so I'm very excited to see where he will go and where he will land and he will get scooped up because, I mean, he's proven he can do it. Yeah, I think it's like, kind of, you know, I. I like having a little bit of drama in the industry. So, like, obviously I feel bad for him, but, like, this is. This is the fashion industry at the fashion industry's biggest spilkus.

C (64:27)

I'm not going to comment. I mean, I don't know if time will tell if this was a savvy move or not. I've already gotten myself in enough trouble on this episode. I'm not going to, like, like, make a. Make a critical judgment on that. I think, like, there is something here that, like, now this collection feels like it's encased in ember and that it will forever be, like, looked back on as, like, look at how amazing this was, and we'll have an even higher, I think, appraisal of it in the next several years. That's kind of my feeling, is that for him, it really is probably a burnishing of his reputation, and he was there for a blip. But I think it made me think of. I was trying to think of comparisons, and I thought of two things, and it made me think of this is a very. Is a comparison for maybe 10 listeners, and one of them being maybe Tim Blanks, if he listens to this. But, like, it kind of reminded me a little bit of Umit Benon, who, like, had had this, like, amazing moment at Trisardi. Like, he had his own brand. He had this amazing moment at Trisardi and then he was. It was the. The reporting, you know, came out later. Like, he. He had an amazing Twitter rant that he. When he got let go for the company, and he now has his own brand. I always go see it in Milan. It's really beautiful, beautiful stuff that is kind of. He's kind of operating as. As. As a male Phoebe on a very, very, very minor scale, I think. Very luxurious, a little directional. He's such a talented, amazing designer, but he was just a huge personality for this time in a way that Daria was not. I don't want to make that. That comparison, but it was this thing where it's like, wow, how amazing were those Trisardi shows? Or, like, how amazing was his own brand? And then it, like, kind of disappeared. The other thing I thought of Inter in this capacity was this does have shades of the Simone Bellotti at Bally, where it's like, there kind of was this groundswell Phenomenon. This, this, this grassroots. Hey, this guy's really good. This is really good. And it worked out for Simone. He, he, he kind of, he got pluck plucked and is now with Jill Sonder. And we have not mentioned him yet in this episode. We're an hour, two minutes in, which is amazing that we've not mentioned him because we are three, three of his biggest fans.

A (66:31)

I think we are his number one fans and we are the reason he got that Jill Sander job.

C (66:35)

I, I, I would never, I would never say that, ever.

A (66:39)

No, it was the pro, it was the project. It was the project. I'm sure that's what Renzo Rosso said.

C (66:44)

But to what you said, Lauren, I don't see the mew mew thing. I understand maybe that is the rationale. I don't see that as a cannibalization. I felt like Versace was going to find its own different kind of client under this Dario look. I don't think it was going to end up being what the Miu Miu consumer is. I went to Art Basel a couple weeks ago and I. That is where all the Miu Miu is, Guys. Surprise. It's all on these, like, very, very rich people that just want to have a shirt that has a Miu Miu logo on it and they love it. And it was shocking to me how much mew mew I saw down there. And it wasn't what's kind of, I hate to put it in these terms, but what grabbed me about that was that it was, it didn't feel cool. Like, it didn't feel like it was on someone that was super savvy in a way. Like, it felt like it was on someone that, that missed Logo Mania a little bit because they had the little logo there and you knew what it was and it felt like that was the itch that it was scratching. But I will forever mourn that this Versace collection isn't going to be out there for people to kind of experiment with. Because I thought it was really cool and challenging. And I was really keen to see, okay, what kind of client is this going to grab? Because clearly I think there's someone in this world that has been missing this kind of deco, vibrant, Dick Tracy spirit. And I think that fashion has ignored that kind of color conscious, look at me shopper. And they were being served to with this. And we'll see. He will get another job. I don't know if he'll get paid for, like, crazy, crazy money. I just think the landscape isn't Maybe, you know, suited for. For that right now, but I'm sure he'll get another job.

B (68:31)

I do think it's interesting, though, that you said mew mew is all over Miami. Because as much as I don't think it was a strategic firing in that sense that Lauren, you're saying, I do think then that is case for it cannibalizing Versace. Because Versace is Miami.

A (68:47)

I didn't say it was a strategic firing because they thought it was going to cannibalize. I just thought in the end, like, oh, that actually, like, a Peter Mulier makes more sense from a, like, brand portfolio perspective of, like, what kind of person do you want to bring in commercial wise?

B (69:06)

Sure, sure.

A (69:08)

The reason, like, I did a lot of reporting on this, and I was just going to say from my perspective, like, yes, this was a drama, but the Prada group handled this incredibly well. And I think Dario Vitale handled it incredibly well. Like, he's still on social media. Like, everyone involved, the Versace people. Why are you laughing at me?

C (69:28)

He's still on social media. Like, they were going to, like, kill him. Like.

A (69:33)

Why are you making fun of me, Jacob? This is rude. I do not make fun of you.

C (69:38)

The point is through it over there. Yeah.

A (69:40)

Yes, yes, he is.

C (69:42)

He is posting through it. I agree. He is posting through it.

A (69:45)

And in, like, what I. What I want to say is that, like, literally everyone involved who has been able to speak to me has and been incredibly like, this is what happened and we're not gonna lie about it. Whereas I work with other groups that, like, right. Act like nothing's happened. Maria Grazia is waiting for six months. They're begging her to stay at Fendi. Nothing's wrong. Nothing's wrong. Give me a fucking break. Just say what's wrong. And they did. They were very honest with all the reporters. And I just think it's like, this is why Miuccia Prada is who she is. She's a class act. And whatever happened, they were pretty honest about it. And I think it was a drama. But it was fun because everybody was like, there wasn't this, like, stress behind it. So that is all, from my perspective, is like, if you want to talk about the inner workings of the industry, like, this group has a lot of potential because they're not acting like freaks about little things. And they just kind of laid it all out. And I thought that was really smart because it diffused it as well. No one is, like, people are talking about it, but no one's like, Worried about it, if that makes sense.

C (70:58)

This is to that point a little bit. I'm not quite sure I agree that it could have been stressful for no one. Like, I'm sure there were some hard feelings somewhere, but this is definitely a scenario where I'm left excited for both what Versace will be, and I'm excited for whatever Daario does next. Like, I think that there is a ability to hold both things in your head and be like, okay, we're going to see something new in two ways, hopefully, going forward. And that's great.

A (71:25)

Okay, so, Jacob, you're wearing a Giorgio Armani T shirt, so why don't we talk about Le Colezio Collezioni? Is that how you would say?

C (71:36)

Yeah.

A (71:38)

Let's discuss the passing of Mr. Armani. He meant a lot to both of you.

C (71:45)

Yeah, I mean, you know, he's. He's one of the best. What am I supposed to say? He's one of the best to ever do it. He probably had. On the men's side of things, he's probably had the most impact in terms of how men have dressed over his design career. I think he had an ability to shape how the world dressed, how the world of men dressed, not just for his own consumers, but for how men took from that subconsciously and how other brands stole from him and how he dictated, I think, a certain look. And I think that he operated his business the right way in a lot of ways. I think he, as a corporate leader, he was very commendable in a lot of ways. And I think also just his savvy about making a man look better. I mean, he was just. He. That is preternatural, like, you're born with that. And he was able to communicate that through his clothes. I think that there is something to be said for both in the years leading up to him passing. And it continues. Like, everybody that I know is buying as much old Armani as they can all the time. They're constantly rediscovering different periods of his, different things he made. I think that he. It continues to be. And I think that that just speaks to how what he made, what that brand was able to make. Both Giorgio and Emporio, like, what those brands were able to do is offer something that was a little bit more challenging, a little bit gonna make you look better. That little bit, that little extra layer is what he was a master of. And I will. I mean, certainly, I think I've been doing this for over a decade now, so I went to. Over what I Don't know. I don't know how many Giorgio shows, but it was, you know, the waning years of his career. But you'd still go to a show sometimes and you would be like, wow, that's how everyone should dress. You'd leave and you'd kind of be like, that actually is like, we'd all be better if everyone just dressed like that. It was theatrical and at times, a little camp, but there was no one like that. To me, Milan Fashion Week now feels like such a fading star. And the fact that Giorgio could still articulate something at those shows, that Giorgio and his team, I should say, could still articulate something at those shows, that felt like a clear follow me kind of message. That was amazing. I mean, it was just amazing.

B (74:28)

I do think it's interesting. I mean, I think he is the case study in staying true to yourself throughout your branding, you know, throughout your time, throughout your building of your company. So I. I think it's a little bit different for men and women in terms of relating to Giorgio Armani clothes, because even.

C (74:48)

Totally.

B (74:48)

I buy Armani men's clothes.

C (74:51)

Absolutely. Yeah.

B (74:53)

I think it's really. He's. He's a fascinating, fascinating brand builder, and so admirable in that and being able to stick to your vision and what you believe throughout all of these decades. But because I wrote, actually, it's probably two years ago, I wrote a newsletter about this, saying it's an Armani moment again, and sort of how all of these people are rediscovering Armani. Because Armani hasn't changed. The styles continue to change and come back and circle back, and it still is the best of the best. And he could stay tunnel vision in the fashion system, which is rare and difficult. And I think that is what's so admirable about the Armando brand. And obviously, that was a huge loss. It'll be very curious to see what happens.

A (75:40)

Yes.

B (75:41)

Without its leader.

A (75:43)

Yeah. I think it's just gonna be one of their partners is gonna buy it. It's not gonna be lvmh. It's gonna be l' Oreal or a Solar Luxottica or a combo of the two. What is so funny, Jacob?

C (75:59)

Nothing. Nothing.

A (76:02)

Anyway.

C (76:03)

Nothing. I. I bear my soul. I'm. I cut myself open talking about how much it meant to me, and you're like, they will be purchased by the corporate partners.

A (76:13)

Well, this is my job. Like, this is such a.

C (76:17)

This is such a split of our jobs. It's really.

A (76:20)

What I will tell you both, as someone who look hugely Admire. Own a ton of Armani myself. Have been buying it for the last, I probably, I don't know, seven years or something. I don't, I was not buying it 20 years ago, but have been buying it more. Um, look, I think Ralph Lauren versus Armani, I write about them in, in conversation with each other a lot because I think Ralph Lauren had the ability to un, like look outside himself a little bit. You might not believe it but, but you can see how that brand has been managed. I think that brand has been managed better than Armani. I think the reason Armani is so pure and still has a lot of potential is because he was so steadfast. But because he was so steadfast and so provincial in the way he operated, there's a lot of inefficiency in that business. And also there are fewer people who are interested in Armani than would be if he had managed it in a, in a more modern way. Like the, the big sort of thing that happened in fashion in the last 15 years is it went from being a family of family run businesses to corporate global entities that are still some family run but they have, they have fiduciary expectations. Things like that because Armani was private look like it, it does feel very pure and it feels like there's a lot of potential. I by no means think that Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen should suddenly design Armani and make it really modern. I don't want that. But I do think that there is a lot of inefficiency within the company that probably is not going to be fixed because of the way he set it up. Whereas if, if it was set up where someone else could buy it, they could go in and really reorganize. I know there are a lot of people at Armani who want to do that and are excited because it's up double digits in the US this year. There's a lot of potential. But the reality of the matter is like this is a business that is mostly based on probably emporio off price Armani denim being sold at like a weird place. So I'm just saying from my perspective, like I'm glad that it was organized the way it was because it is pure and there is something to move on from now. But what happens now is it's either gonna dwindle and become a Missoni or an Etro or it will, it will. But like the business of selling clothes doesn't really exist anymore and so they need to reorganize so that you can still make nice clothes and Let people enjoy them.

B (79:11)

Is it that it doesn't exist anymore at that scale?

A (79:13)

Scale, like, yeah, look like. I just think it does exist. Obviously if you talk to Louis Vuitton, they say they sell like a gazillion dollars worth of. Sure.

B (79:25)

Not what I meant.

A (79:26)

Women's ready to wear. But. But yes. I mean, I think the, the point being that like that structure is just really heavy with off price. And if you look at Brunello Cinelli, that's probably like a better organized. And obviously he owes everything to Armani, but. But that's a better organized example of like how to make a clothing business. They. They rely heavily on off price like this. And so I just think to me, the. When I look at Armani and I look at Ralph and like the cultural impact that Ralph has had, and part of that is because it's a lifestyle brand versus a clothing brand. But I do think Armani has a potential to have that kind of impact or had that potential and because of the way it was managed, never got so far. So I'm interested to see who Leo and Sylvia decide on because it's really their decision. They've brought in a lot of really interesting people to the board. Marco Bazzari, the former CEO of Gucci, who really knows how to scale a business. But to me, it was this year for me, the Armani versus the Ralph Lauren of like the last two independents figuring out how to live in this modern world where this is sort of fashion has just become this conveyor belt was a really interesting story to me. But yeah, I mean, I appreciate it and I agree that you go to those shows, Jacob, and you're like, okay, these are just great clothes. Why can't other people do this? And there wasn't any. There will never be anyone else like that for sure who just doesn't care what anyone else thinks. Toast the holidays in a new way and raise a glass of Rumchata, a delicious creamy blend of horchata with rum. Enjoy it over ice or in your coffee. Rumchata. Your holiday cocktails just got sweeter. Tap or click the banner for more Drink responsibly. Caribbean rum with real dairy cream, natural and artificial flavors. Alcohol 13.75% by volume 27.5 proof. Copyright 2025 Agave Loco Brands, Pojoaque, Wisconsin. All rights reserved.

B (81:46)

So good, so good.

A (81:48)

So good. New year New gear. Thousands of fresh active styles are at Nordstrom Rack style stores now. Save on top brands like Nike, Puma and free people Starting at just $35.

B (82:00)

How did I not know Rack has Adidas?

A (82:02)

There's always something new. Plus, join the Nordy Club to shop new arrivals first. Unlock exclusive discounts and more. Great brands, great prices. That's why you wreck. The celebrity piece of it. We didn't talk about Kendrick Lamar at the super bowl and the boot cuts. We didn't talk about T, Taylor Swift and. And Travis. Like, do we want to just talk quickly about the effect celebrity has? Because fashion brands are relying more and more on celebrity for. For their marketing and to get to people.

C (82:42)

So I've kind of alluded to this a little bit. Like, I feel like celebrity fashion is in its imperial moment, where it's like, we exist here and it has nothing to do with how you all dress down here. Like, I think Kendrick, like, it was an interesting moment at the super bowl with the bootcut jeans, because it felt so. It's like, here you are wearing fashion in front of the masses kind of moment. And it was. But it wasn't crazy in a couture, costume, theatrical way. It was like a legible fashion trend that we all had some relationship with, but we knew was pushing the envelope a little bit. I find it funny looking back. I wrote about those jeans. A lot of people I could tell you wanted to read about those jeans. I think that they were women's Celine jeans. This is the second time we've. I've mentioned a client of Taylor McNeil who is probably, I think, at this point, like, top five most important people in fashion right now. Like, I have to give it up to her. Like, she is constantly creating part of the conversation we're having. But the funny thing about the Kendrick moment to me is, like, that coincides with basically since that point. This is maybe for a culture podcast, but he performs not like us. That's the biggest rap song of all time, seemingly. And then rap is now, quote, unquote, over. Rap has never been less culturally important since kind of. I think it's creation. It feels way harder to break through, to get a song, to break through, to get a new artist, to break through. There's no one that is, like, emerged. As I'm saying this, though, I'm now realizing I'm wrong because I'm going to bring up someone who. I don't even know if either of you know who this is, but, like, sdkid is, I think as we're talking, like, the 10th most.

A (84:38)

Of course I do. Jacob.

B (84:40)

I have no idea.

C (84:41)

Listen to person on Spotify like this. I think there's something happening in The UK that is not happening in American hip hop right now. But you know, the bootcut moment, it's like that to me just exemplifies like people are gawking at that, they're really talking about it, but they're not. That didn't cause a surge in bootcut jean sales. Like whether or not bootcut jeans were coming back. It wasn't like Kendrick had a hand in making that happen and or not happen. It just existed in its own little bubble. And I feel like that's instructive because that wasn't a again, that wasn't a red carpet kind of Ariana Grande, Cynthia Erivo crazy costume for wicked moment. That was just like normal clothes, quote unquote. And even that didn't seem to have much of an impact on how people actually dress. As I said, I think celebrities right now, the way they dress just doesn't have much trickle down effect and I think that that is going to become a problem. Lauren, frankly, for these brands where no matter how much you stan a musician or how into an actor you are, if you don't feel some crossover connection to like they're doing this and I want to do that, it's like what does that matter then for these brands to have these endorsers?

B (85:59)

I don't know but I think actually the biggest SEO celebrity moments were like the more non fashion moments. I mean every time I open my computer I have 10 emails about Jennifer Lawrence left her house and then I'm like oh she's in just like baggy jeans and then it's all about Zoe Kravitz and Harry Styles and head to toe the row that looks like basics. So I don't know, it's also I think that's really resonating. And then of course there's Taylor Swift with God knows what she wears. But you know, it's quote unquote relatable. So I don't know, it's just not very inspiring I guess.

C (86:37)

But are they making like Taylor Swift for example? It's like is that even though she's the biggest pop star in the world, is she making trends happen? Is she changing how people dress? Like no, no, not at all.

B (86:49)

That's what's interesting. Same with Jennifer Lawrence. I'm like, I don't see what's happening. But sure I could see.

C (86:54)

I mean I think Jennifer Lawrence maybe to you guys would know better than me but maybe to a certain extent.

A (86:59)

Consumer I could Jennifer Lawrence but Jennifer Lawrence literally has zero interest in fashion or personal style that she would admit it. Like, she doesn't care about fashion at all, which is an interesting. And maybe that is why people are interested in it. I think the Zoe Kravitz and Harry Styles is like, that's going to be on mood boards 20 years from now. Like, she wore a purple scarf. For sure it will, it will be like she wore a purple. I'm, I'm not really looking at him, to be honest. But like, she wore a purple scarf the other day. I'm like, everyone, everyone's gonna be looking at that. I think I talked about this with Jamie Mizrahi last week on last week's Tuesday episode. But I do think, I think you're right, Becky. That, that's the thing that is, that is, it's, it's this idea of, I don't know, there's, there probably is like a essay about why. But I, I, I think you're both right in that. The celebrity, the brands, this is what all fashion brands do with everything. Like, they went too hard on. Influencers go too hard. They pour money into stuff when they see a return, and they've seen a good return on red carpet. And so they've poured more and more and more money on into it. And I think in some ways they need to pour more because they don't have enough money to make custom dresses for these people. Like, the reason Louis Vuitton has done better in the recent years is because they make custom dresses for everybody now. And so they're not great, but, like, they're everywhere. They'll have 15 people for each, each red carpet. But I think it's too much. And you hear it. Like, I wrote a thing about campaigns a few months ago. It used to be that, like, a fragrance campaign didn't have celebrities. Now they all, every single campaign has celebrities. Obviously, there's going to be a bubble and it's going to burst. And what comes next, I don't know in this because we don't have monoculture anymore. So it's like the last vestige of the monoculture is like having Scarlett Johansson do your fragrance ad or whatever.

C (89:01)

But I think, you know, you might not pay attention to him, but. And I've talked about this with Stella at work a little bit, and like, I think Harry Styles actually, and what he, the wave he is on now is a little instructive of, like, how our interaction with designer clothes has changed over the past, you know, for men has changed over the past decade. Like, he basically, to use a term you used earlier, Lauren, it's like, it's oatmeal. Like, it's very. Like, it's not the Gucci progressive kind of gender bending. Like, it's. First of all, he mostly wore that in his public appearances, as opposed to him just walking down the street. But you can really feel him kind of dressing very ordinary in a certain way. Like, it's the Row and it's La Mer, and I get that. But it's like, it does look incognito in a certain way. And I think that it was interesting, though, to talk about both of them. You know, they were wearing. One of them was wearing, like, Levi's that they purchased from Serbara's. And I don't know if this was a direct correlation, but I went into Kathleen Serbara's store, like, not long after, which is in Williamsburg here, and she just had racks after rack of, like, Levi's jeans. And she was basically like, we, like, can't keep these in stock. And it did make me think, like, okay, that's what people like. And to Becky, you mentioned vintage earlier. Like, way, way earlier. Like, I think that really is, to me, like, kind of the story of this time is, like, for the actual consumer, like, they're pretty conscious that, like, if they want something, they can probably find it at a secondhand, whether that's vintage or archive designer, however you want to articulate it. Like, you both sang praises of Chanel. Well, I'll say Lauren, in particular sang the praises of the Chanel show. And it's like, but you bought the vintage Chanel jacket. And I think that that kind of. That interaction with the brand, like, that's where I'm like, these brands are going to have to, I think, wake up to that and find a way to get a piece of that pie, or they are really going to miss out. And I. And I think it'll be bad when they do for the consumer because those prices will certainly go up. But, like, like, this Armani shirt, like, I talk diffusively about Armani. Like, this is from Chad Senzel here in the city. Like, this is not. I would never have bought this at the Armani store because it would have been so expensive. Like, but it's. It's a piece of the brand. There's so much clothing out there, and I think people have have woken up to that, and they are buying it not from the brand themselves.

A (91:27)

Well, this is why Phoebe works, because it doesn't look vintage. Like, it looks brand new. And this is. This is a crisis of the industry that's been going on forever. They will never own that, that secondhand market.

C (91:38)

They can't.

A (91:39)

They've chosen, They've chosen not to. They could have 20 years ago or 15 years ago. And some of them, like Dries does a very nice archive section in some of its stores. Like the smaller brands maybe. But I think it's a huge crisis of the industry and my, my thesis of what's going to happen to fashion is that it's not going to become small, but it's not going to keep growing the way it was and it's going to become more of an enthusiast thing again. So like if you're really into clothes, there will be, I do think that this mid price orally, a pressy or whatever it's called, that's mid price. But yeah, well it is, but it is.

C (92:19)

No, no, no, no, no, no. Oppresse is not mid price. Like I'm sorry, that's not in men's. Orally, orally maybe like, but that's pushing it for men's.

A (92:28)

It is for orally for women. So it's like entry designer is what they call it. So it's like compared to everything else it isn't as expensive and you could buy one thing. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying I agree.

C (92:42)

Which is, which is crazy. Where's the contemporary market? Contemporary as a term is just gone, I think.

A (92:48)

Well this is, I mean it's the carving out of the middle class. Like there isn't a middle class. It's all the same thing. It's like you either buy really cheap or really expensive. The point, point being that I just think like fashion is moving in a direction in the industry. It peaked like anyone who thinks like sure, Louis vuitton will be 24, it's 24 billion, it'll be 26 someday. It's not going to be 50 billion in three years. Like they maybe thought it was going to be like it's not going to get Giant that fast. And I think that all of these executives just need to manage for that. Like you need to manage for that. And, and there is such a big opportunity at brands like Jill Sander or Margiela or whatever to make clothes that a person who make upper middle class person can buy a couple things each season and that's where the big opportunity lies. It's not in growing these mega brands anymore. And that's the challenge for someone like Jonathan Anderson. Like yeah.

C (93:51)

Cause here's I think about it like this. Like we're like you kind of talked about in your newsletter, Lauren, like, the client, which I think is a little different than, like, to me, kind of the fashion obsessive, fashion savvy consumer in a certain way.

A (94:05)

Like, I agree.

C (94:05)

I try to parse those out pretty significantly. And I feel like if you're in that, like you care about this world, like, you pay attention to this, we're kind of a little bit, to speak kind of hyperbolically, we're a little bit at the point where you're kind of a mark if you do buy something new. Like, you, like, I'm not saying that's true for every brand, but it is a little like it's gotta be really distinct or really specialized for you to not feel like, I know I bought, I, I know I bought this and it was $4,000. Like, you, you, you try to apologize in a way otherwise. And I think, like, that is, that is gonna be a really high hurdle because it's like we're three people that work in this industry in different capacity, different zones, and we're all in agreement that that's kind of the dominant perspective right now. Like, that's a bad thing for the, that's quite a bad thing for the industry. Like, you should, you should want people like us to still want to go to a store and be like, okay, I don't feel, I feel like I'm participating in this. I'm not going to feel like I'm going to get called out by my friends for buying this. Like, that is the consumer that burnishes your reputation out there in the world and makes you seem cool, frankly, and not just a brand for client. And that's, that's where I think we're unfortunately heading a little bit. Or we're already there to a certain point.

A (95:19)

We're already there. Yeah, it's a, it's a crisis. And it comes down to the fact that people don't want, they only see right what's right in front of them and they want to believe that it's just going to be okay. And it's not, it's definitely not. Like, look, these companies aren't going out of business, but it's, it's, not, it's not, it's not a great thing. I think it's in another way, it's a really fun time to be a shopper because you can get whatever, like, whatever idea you have. I'm. The itch of, of wanting cool fashion is being scratched again for me, and that wasn't for a long time. Because I was kind of like, I don't know what to wear. I don't know. Like, there's nothing good for this wedding that's not an issue anymore. Like, you always find a cool, fun thing to wear. And if you're a fashion enthusiast. I agree. There's, like, a bifurcation between the luxury customer and the fashion enthusiast. And if you're into secondhand, it's a great time to be a fashion enthusiast. The luxury customer is the one that I think feels a little duped right now and won't collaborate.

C (96:26)

Do they feel duped or. Or are they just blindly buying? Like, that's kind of.

A (96:31)

They're not blindly buying.

C (96:32)

You're not blindly buying.

A (96:33)

That's the issue. That's why I made the client the villain. Not because they'd done anything wrong. Because, like, for years, you could just throw whatever at them. They were like, sure, I'll buy this ugly crap, and now they won't do that. And, like, these brands don't know what to do. They're just like, what do we do?

C (96:50)

But I will say, like, it was not that. That long ago that I think that there was more of a crossover. And I think that there was a world in which you'd want. You'd go to the show, or you'd look at the show, and then you'd think, you know what? Maybe I do want a piece of that. Like, Becky, you mentioned, like, the Gucci fur loafers, like, for better or for worse. Like, a ton of people that work in fashion got those shoes. Like, they might. They might regret it now, looking back. But, like, there was that pipeline. You. You would get that excitement, and then you'd get the high from buying the thing, and you'd want to buy into it. And I think price is a big factor upon that. But I also just think the machinations of these brands, it has felt so transparent, and it has felt so obvious. And you. To what I said earlier, you feel like a mark. If you participate in that, you want to be savvy, you don't want to be the mark. And right now, to be savvy is to buy the Chanel jacket secondhand, maybe, as opposed to buying it from the brand. I mean, not to say I think probably there were also price considerations there for both of you. But, you know, I think. I just wonder if that. If we can go back the other way now, it's like, I don't think we can. I don't think we can. It's the same way. It's like People talk about, like, New York house price, like, New York apartment prices. It's like, they're never going to magically go down. Like, I think it's the same thing with luxury pricing. We're never going to see the magical day in which a loafer is $700 again. That's not happening.

A (98:21)

That was the peak. The intersection of the enthusiast and the. And the mega luxury customer. That was the peak of this industry. No, the cultural peak. You know Raf Simmons saying, fashion became pop. I've quoted that so many times. That was what happened. Fashion became pop and the monoculture died. And it's over. Like, it's over, people. That is. That is the answer. Like, no one is standing in line for these Gucci loafers again. Like, it's just not happening. And people need to move on and recalibrate their businesses and their lives to reflect that. And some of them will, and some of them won't. But it's going to be an interesting few years from that perspective, for sure. I hope we get some really good collections out of it. What are you guys excited about for 2024, 26.

B (99:12)

20.

C (99:13)

26, 20. 20, 24, 20?

B (99:20)

Well, as I said earlier, I'm excited to see all of this stuff start coming into stores, actually.

C (99:24)

Yeah.

A (99:25)

Yeah, I agree. I think that will, like, make everybody chill out, honestly.

B (99:30)

And excited for the slower news moment that you were talking about. Because, like, we need a minute, but to. We need a minute to figure out what's working and agree.

C (99:40)

No, that's not gonna happen.

A (99:41)

Obviously, it's gonna be different, though. There's not going to be every week someone being announced. It's going to be different. There's going to be different. There's going to be more stuff like what happened with Dario. Because, honestly, a lot of these collections didn't work and we didn't go into what we didn't like. But I think we all feel the same about one in particular, but.

C (100:06)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was. That was a bit of a letdown.

A (100:09)

But also heavy.

C (100:11)

So heavy. So not the moment we thought.

A (100:14)

Yeah. And then also balancing. Yeah, but. But the point being that, like, a lot of these aren't going to stick, and there's also going to be a lot of executive changes and all that stuff. So there will be a lot of news, But, Becky, what did you want to say?

B (100:29)

I just think we all need a minute to kind of settle down and figure out what style is. Ken. Like, there has been so much hysteria and.

A (100:38)

Yeah.

B (100:38)

Sort of sit with all of this and Figure out where everything lays and thinking about our own closets and thinking about where the industry is moving and just sort of sitting with it all.

A (100:50)

Well, I look forward to you guiding us in Your newsletter called 5 things you should buy, which is published on substack.

B (100:58)

Maybe 2026 needs to be the year I change the name to the newsletter.

A (101:03)

No, it's.

C (101:04)

No, it's so good.

A (101:05)

It's good and it helps guide all of us. And Jacob, we can find all of your great reports. You name a lot of different trends, including the potato shoes. Your greatest potato shoe. I love that one at the New York Times. And I hope to have you both on in 2026. This was so fun. Is there anything we didn't talk about that you or you want to yell at me about before we go?

C (101:31)

No, I just want to make the point that I think that for as cause I don't want to leave. Not that we're leaving on a sad note, but. Or a pessimistic note. But I think that there is still. And I am really fascinated by this and I would love if any listeners are out there to send me things that might fit this bill that, you know, I'm really fascinated by these brands that feel very small right now that feel like you can really get your arms around them. And, you know, some of it is, you know, I've interviewed a lot of tailors recently and. Or I've interviewed people that just like have a side project off of working on their. Working another job. And I think that that's where the excitement is gonna come from in the next year or so is people are gonna get, I think, into one, because it's specialized and two, it's hard to get frankly, the stuff like I really interested in these businesses that just feel of a very modest scale and that people are content with that. And that's so not what fashion is coverage often is. Things have to feel huge. But I really like that is what I think the next year will be, at least in terms of my coverage in a lot of ways. But also I think for just what people are gonna want to talk about and be interested in is something that feels a little bit more intimate and harder to touch in a good way, frankly. I think when things are too big, we get a conversation like we've just had, which is that things don't always shake out great. And it can feel like a down year. But, you know, I think let's all look forward to kind of the good and the small and the new, you know.

A (103:09)

Yeah. I think like an Emily Dawn Long is a great example of that. Like, I get so much pleasure out of buying stuff from her and it's like, it's so fun. It's never. And there's less pressure now to like, for her to like make it into, to be the like go work at a European brand like there was 15 years ago when those kinds of brands popped up. Becky, how are you feeling?

B (103:32)

This made me think actually of Tina Lakonen's podcast that you did with her.

A (103:36)

Oh yeah.

B (103:36)

I would like in 2026 is you to do a follow up with her because it was so great about the small brand.

A (103:43)

She's so good. Thank you both for being guests on fashion and being my friends and listening to me and putting up with my shit. I appreciate it. Happy New Year.

B (103:54)

Happy New Year.

A (103:57)

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations, Gabby Gross.

B (104:13)

Postman.

A (104:14)

An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.

C (104:22)

Hi, I'm Andy Staples from Andy and Ariane three. And another five star quarterback just entered the transfer portal. That's what college football is now, a non stop adventure. And we cover it every day at Andy and Ariane 3. Whether it's the transfer portal, the college football playoff, the coaching carousel, you name it. And guess what? It doesn't stop even when the season ends. So join us every day, Monday through Friday. New episodes drop at 3pm Wherever you get your podcasts.