Gatecrashers and Gatekeepers

Summary

Fashion People Podcast Summary: Episode "Gatecrashers and Gatekeepers"

Release Date: June 27, 2025
Host: Lauren Sherman
Guest: Robin Gavan, Pulitzer Prize-Winning Journalist and Author of Make It Ours, Crashing the Gates of Culture with Virgil Abloh

---

1. Introduction

Lauren Sherman opens the episode by welcoming Robin Gavan, a renowned journalist and author, to discuss his latest work centered on Virgil Abloh—a pivotal figure in the intersection of fashion and culture. Sherman provides context about her recent activities, including hosting a Puck dinner and attending high-profile events, setting the stage for an insightful conversation about the evolving fashion industry.

---

2. Robin Gavan’s Motivation Behind the Book

Robin Gavan delves into the inspiration for his book, Make It Ours, Crashing the Gates of Culture with Virgil Abloh. He explains that Virgil’s untimely passing and the profound emotional response from the fashion community were catalysts for him to explore Virgil’s career and legacy.

[09:14] Robin Gavan: “I was really kind of taken aback by the degree of outpouring of emotion. It felt like people had lost a friend.”

Gavan emphasizes the dichotomy between his initial critical perspective on Virgil’s work and the undeniable fandom that surrounded him, highlighting the complex relationship between critique and admiration in the fashion world.

---

3. Virgil Abloh’s 3% Rule

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Virgil Abloh’s innovative 3% rule, a principle stating that altering an existing design by just 3% effectively creates something new. Gavan elucidates how this rule, rooted in Virgil’s DJ background where remixing is fundamental, was both lauded and criticized within the industry.

[12:38] Robin Gavan: “His 3% principle was the notion that if you change an existing item by 3%, you’ve essentially created something new.”

Gavan notes that this approach allowed Virgil to navigate criticism and legal challenges gracefully, positioning his work as continuous evolution rather than blatant copying.

[13:40] Robin Gavan: “It was an interesting way of thinking about doing fashion and skirting around criticism.”

---

4. Virgil’s Relationship with Kanye West and Other Designers

The conversation shifts to Virgil’s dynamic with Kanye West, exploring how their collaboration influenced Virgil’s trajectory in the fashion industry. Gavan shares anecdotes highlighting Virgil’s humility and openness, despite his growing influence.

[25:06] Robin Gavan: “There was this initial connection between Virgil and Kanye, two sides of the same coin, both deeply immersed in design and culture.”

Gavan also touches upon Virgil’s mentorship and collaborative relationships with emerging designers like Heron Preston and Matthew Williams, illustrating Virgil’s role in fostering new talent within the industry.

---

5. Virgil’s Management Style at Louis Vuitton

Robin Gavan provides an in-depth analysis of Virgil Abloh’s tenure at Louis Vuitton, emphasizing his unique management approach. Unlike traditional executives, Virgil leveraged modern technology and informal communication channels to streamline processes and encourage real-time collaboration.

[48:04] Robin Gavan: “Virgil just created a text chain on WhatsApp so people could have conversations in real time, approving things instantly.”

This unconventional method allowed for rapid decision-making and fostered a more inclusive and dynamic work environment, setting Virgil apart as a forward-thinking leader.

---

6. Influence on Luxury Fashion and Cultural Appropriation

Gavan discusses Virgil Abloh’s impact on luxury fashion, particularly how he navigated and transformed cultural appropriation within the industry. Virgil’s approach redefined luxury by embedding cultural significance and community resonance into his designs, thereby democratizing luxury fashion.

[56:28] Robin Gavan: “Virgil’s use of 'we' was important in bringing in consumers and making them feel they had a stake in what he was doing.”

Gavan argues that Virgil’s success at Louis Vuitton signaled a shift towards valuing marketing expertise and cultural storytelling over traditional design prowess, reflecting broader changes in the luxury fashion landscape.

---

7. Virgil’s Legacy and Cultural Impact

In the concluding segments, Gavan reflects on Virgil Abloh’s enduring legacy and his contributions to culture and the fashion industry. He posits that Virgil’s work will be remembered not just for his designs but for how he redefined luxury and inclusivity in fashion.

[71:12] Robin Gavan: “He encouraged designers and creative people who felt like outsiders to ask the industry, 'Why not me?' and celebrate that identity.”

Gavan envisions Virgil’s influence as a catalyst for ongoing changes in how fashion intersects with cultural identity and community, ensuring that Virgil’s legacy continues to inspire future generations.

---

8. Closing Remarks

Lauren Sherman wraps up the episode by expressing gratitude to Robin Gavan for his insightful contributions. She hints at exploring more topics in future episodes, ensuring listeners remain engaged with the evolving narratives within the fashion industry.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Robin Gavan [09:14]: “I was really kind of taken aback by the degree of outpouring of emotion. It felt like people had lost a friend.”
• Robin Gavan [12:38]: “His 3% principle was the notion that if you change an existing item by 3%, you’ve essentially created something new.”
• Robin Gavan [25:06]: “There was this initial connection between Virgil and Kanye, two sides of the same coin, both deeply immersed in design and culture.”
• Robin Gavan [48:04]: “Virgil just created a text chain on WhatsApp so people could have conversations in real time, approving things instantly.”
• Robin Gavan [56:28]: “Virgil’s use of 'we' was important in bringing in consumers and making them feel they had a stake in what he was doing.”
• Robin Gavan [71:12]: “He encouraged designers and creative people who felt like outsiders to ask the industry, 'Why not me?' and celebrate that identity.”

---

This episode of Fashion People offers a comprehensive exploration of Virgil Abloh’s profound impact on fashion and culture, through the expert lens of Robin Gavan. For listeners seeking to understand the intricacies of fashion’s evolution and the pivotal roles played by industry leaders, this episode is an invaluable resource.

Transcript

[Jennifer Zuccharini]

The best secrets are worn close to the skin. Enter fleur de mal, the not so secret weapon of women who know what they're doing in their clothes and out of them. Founded by Jennifer Zuccharini in 2012, Floor isn't just lingerie.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's a whole vibe.

[Jennifer Zuccharini]

It's for the woman who owns her energy. Whether in the boardroom or the bedroom, Florida Mall's whole philosophy is about the transformative power of sensuality, inspiring people to embrace their sexuality and radiate confidence in every facet of life. The lingerie is iconic, but the ready to wear? It's criminally underrated. Think dresses that contour and highlight your best assets. Corsets that hit harder than a double espresso, Delicate lingerie that whispers sweet nothings and pieces that wink and say, don't ask where I got it because you already know. Speaking of secrets, Flora just dropped a rose shaped vibrator that looks like an obj but knows exactly what it's doing. Let's just say it'll be the prettiest.

[Lauren Sherman]

Thing in your bedside drawer.

[Jennifer Zuccharini]

Discretion truly never looks so divine. One in you can find Flora in all the it girl neighborhoods, SoHo, West Hollywood, and soon enough, Williamsburg. Obviously use code floralovesfploridamal.com for a 15% off your first order, but maybe keep that between us.

[Robin Gavan]

Calling all sourdough tamers, souffle whisperers and Jammy egg savants. Whether you're a professional chef or just cooking something up delicious weeknight, there's one brand that can uplevel your kitchen style and functionality.

[Lauren Sherman]

Hedley and Bennett.

[Robin Gavan]

Hedley and Bennett makes premium kitchen gear that combines style, durability and function. Everything from aprons to super sharp Japanese steel knives. They've sold over a million aprons. You've probably seen them on some of the best chefs in the world, in your favorite restaurants as well as on TV in your favorite cooking show competitions. Every product is designed by chefs for chefs using the highest quality materials. Plus they come with a lifetime guarantee so you know you're investing in quality that lasts. And if you're looking for a gift, their new collaborations with the NFL, Star Wars, Disney and dozens of other iconic brands are perfect for every cook. Ready to upgrade your kitchen? Head over to hedleyinbended.com and use podcast 15 at checkout for 15% off your order. That's 15 podcast 15 for 15% off. Elevate your cooking experience with Hedley and Bennett today.

[Lauren Sherman]

Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet and today with me on the show is Robin Gavan, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and author of Make It Ours, Crashing the Gates of Culture with Virgil Abloh. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the arts world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion people get a discount. Just go to Puck News fashionpeople to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. What a week. On Tuesday I hosted a Puck dinner with Shop My at a lovely restaurant called Le Petit Chaise, which I am definitely mispronouncing and a nice man today. Explain to me how, but I'm still going to get it wrong. It is the oldest brasserie in the city and it's run by this very nice group of guys, apparently including Antoine Arnault. He was not around at the restaurant, unfortunately, but there were tons of amazing executives from across the fashion industry here who came out and thanks to all of them and to Tiffany and Anisha from Shot My for making it happen. I mean without them we wouldn't have been able to do it. But I think it was very productive for everyone involved. I got a lot of it was a really good vibe. They enjoyed meeting people. Everyone wanted to be introduced. That's the point. I love these things. I don't know if we have time to do any more this year. I have so many booked. But if you want to, you want to do one, call Alexandra or email Alexandra Puck News and maybe we can squeeze you in. I also have been going to shows. I've been going to tons of meetings and I wrote a lot of letters. A lot of letters this week, including one that you will have to read next week because on Thursday night as I was walking into this stadium in the 13th arrondissement to watch Faith Kipiegon try to run a mile under four minutes, which apparently no woman has ever done. And Nike put together this event, breaking4, I got a text as I'm going into breaking4, I skipped the Rick Owens show for it and text says did you hear? I immediately think like something bad happened. So I call this person. And it turns out it's about Anna Wintour stepping down. The reality is, and I'm not clear why the company did not send a press release after the announcement was made internally, because I think it would have made it a lot easier. But I found out very quickly that she's stepping down from being the editor in chief of American Vogue because there are no editors in chiefs at Conde Nast anymore. There are heads of content head, and they're regional. So this job, the regional head of content for American Vogue has been technically on the org chart for, like, since COVID Like, for five. They did a big. The company did a big reorg chart, and this is on there. And I guess Anna and whoever else has not had time to fill it because they've been really busy with a lot of other stuff, but she's still gonna be the head, the global head of editorial content for. For Vogue. Sort of like that's Will Welch's title, I think, at gq, she is also still the chief content officer of Conde Nast, so she is in charge of everyone, and she still runs the Met. So I think this means that I thought maybe she would just fully retire next year and go on a speaking tour, but I don't think that's happening. So best of luck to whoever gets this job. In line sheet. On Thursday, I kind of went through who the obvious candidates are and who I really think is gonna get it. And I will say I made a guest appearance on How Long Gone, where I kind of went into all my picks. My top pick when I was talking to the guys at How Long Gone changed within, I'd say, 30 minutes of our conversation because I had more conversations. I was thinking it was gonna be Samira Nasser when I chatted with them. But then I, like, got off the phone, talked to someone else, and I was like, oh, actually, that doesn't make sense. You're right. And it's actually this person, but you have to read line sheet to see who it is. I'll discuss her in later weeks. Anyway, it was crazy. I left my sweatshirt at the stadium. If anyone finds a vintage gray sweatshirt at the stadium in the 13 Oranismont, I would love to have it back. And I hope you enjoy this conversation with Robin. It was interesting. And maybe I'll write more about this at some point. But to have the Nike conversation that Robin and I have about Virgil and then to be at this Nike event, and then it was Nike earnings on Thursday night, and just a lot of worlds coming together. And in the Middle of it. I wrote this Anna email, so enjoy it. And please enjoy this conversation with Robyn. I think I'm gonna have her back in a couple weeks to just talk more about her career and also more about Virgil. We could have done another hour. So thanks again to her, and I hope you all have a great weekend. I'm sure I forgot a bunch of stuff. Oh, Monday, it'll be all about Jonathan Dior. I'll be Zane T. All that good stuff. Robin Givan. Welcome to Fashion People.

[Virgil Abloh]

Thank you for having me.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's such an honor. I'm so happy that you're here. Congratulations on the publishing of your book. Make it ours. How happy and relieved are you?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I was a bundle of excitement and anxiety prior to publishing, but now I'm just in a state of, like, exuberance. I'm just really happy that it's out there and that people feel like. So far, people feel like it is a fair assessment of Virgil's fashion career.

[Lauren Sherman]

So what made you want to do this book? What was the sort of jumping off point? And you. I remember chatting with you about it early in the process, and you did say, I'm really focusing on this specific time in his life. And obviously you go into his background and how he got to Louis Vuitton, which was sort of the most symbolic part of his life in fashion. But what spurred the idea? Was it his passing or.

[Virgil Abloh]

It was.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It was a combination of things. After his passing, I was really kind of taken aback by the degree to.

[Virgil Abloh]

Which there was this outpouring of emotion.

[Unnamed Speaker]

From people that seemed to feel like.

[Virgil Abloh]

They had lost a friend. There was this sense of intimacy that was surprising to me.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And then a couple people asked me.

[Virgil Abloh]

If I had ever thought about writing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

About Virgil's career, and I hadn't. And then that kind of put the.

[Virgil Abloh]

Bug in my ear, and I thought, hmm, is that something that I would want to do? And what made me ultimately want to.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Do it was the fact that, as.

[Virgil Abloh]

Anyone who has access to Google knows, I was often critical of his work.

[Unnamed Speaker]

In fashion, particularly the women's, and yet I was a witness to the amazing.

[Virgil Abloh]

Like, fandom that surrounded him.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And it was a disconnect, and it was.

[Virgil Abloh]

There was this tension there.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And as a journalist, when there's this. When there's this space where there's tension and you're trying to figure out, okay.

[Virgil Abloh]

Like, why are these two things in opposition?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Seemingly it's ripe to explore.

[Lauren Sherman]

So that criticism of his. The actual work, and show by show. And I think about this a Lot with Louis Vuitton in particular, because the Louis Vuitton shows were not well received generally they weren't seen as good Runway shows. But the thing that you talk about quite a bit in the book, that and everybody who is listening to this should have read the book already. But if they haven't, please buy the book immediately and then re listen to this. But you talk about this 3% rule he had. And I feel like for me, the way I bristled at his work is connected to the 3% rule. And can you explain what that was and what it did to the way he operated?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, I mean, I think that was foundational to the exasperation that many in the industry felt. I mean, his 3% principle was this.

[Virgil Abloh]

Notion that if you change an existing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Item by 3%, you had essentially created something new. And a little bit of it I felt comes from the sort of DJ.

[Virgil Abloh]

Ethos because he was a DJ and DJs are constantly remixing. And for them, yeah, like you take someone else's melody and you take someone.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Else'S lyrics and you remix it and you have created this sort of new entity. And in fashion that doesn't play very well. And you know, he would often take things that other people had created. And you know, I think you could make a really strong argument that, you know, he hadn't changed it by 3%.

[Virgil Abloh]

And even if he changed it by.

[Unnamed Speaker]

20%, it's still was not like his to say that, you know, his to put his brand on it. And you know, it was an interesting way of thinking about doing fashion. It was an interesting way of skirting around criticism. It certainly got him sued and got him, you know, made him the recipient of cease and desist orders. But it also kind of rolled off his back and he kind of put it in the category of, you know, shortcuts.

[Virgil Abloh]

I mean, he loves shortcuts and cheat.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Codes as you know.

[Lauren Sherman]

Did you like talking to him and how many times did you do like a sit down, longer interview with him?

[Unnamed Speaker]

My relationship when he was, you know.

[Virgil Abloh]

Alive and working was very, very distant.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, we had a professional relations and I never did a like one on one sit down with him. You know, I talked to him, you know, in those sort of circumstances where like there's a lot going on and.

[Virgil Abloh]

There are like people around and he's talking about this project or that project. But I would say the most interesting.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And the longest conversation that I had with him was really during COVID and he was talking to a group of.

[Virgil Abloh]

Students that were Part of his scholarship fund.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And like, we sat down beforehand and chatted and then we did a whole conversation for the benefit of these students. And then I facilitated a conversation between the students and between and him.

[Virgil Abloh]

And that was interesting because it was a chance to see him sort of.

[Unnamed Speaker]

One on one, one on one in front of an audience and then one with students. And, you know, he didn't change his tone at all.

[Virgil Abloh]

He was very much himself in all those circumstances.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And he had a way of speaking that was in big paragraphs. And he use this kind of language of like.

[Virgil Abloh]

I mean, it was an interesting combination.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Of sort of both intellectualism and also sort of wide eyed, tell me what I don't know. I'm just a kid working through this. And I think it was that combination.

[Virgil Abloh]

That was so engaging for people who felt like they were outside of the.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Industry or just really trying to learn from him that he could come across as both an expert while at the same time channeling their curiosity and sense.

[Virgil Abloh]

Of being an outsider.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I only did one longer one on one with him, but in those scrums, which are either backstage or at a store opening, when you'd get 15 or 10 minutes with him or what have you, and I didn't. I don't do tons of those, but I did. I found him to be. He was so open. And sometimes I'd be like, oh my God, this is amazing, My mind is blown. And then I'd listen to it. I'd be like, what does this mean? Does it mean anything? Or it felt like all the sort of slap dash, I'm gonna do everything really fast and do a ton of stuff, and it being good isn't important. It's about doing. It was the art. And the interviews he did in many cases also felt like that. Like the fact that he would. He would ask for the recording of the interview, which I remember the first time had the guy who was his sort of right hand, I forget his name, but he would be like, he would love the recording of the interview afterwards. Can you send it? And I was like, is that ethical?

[Jennifer Zuccharini]

I don't know.

[Lauren Sherman]

It was so weird. But I was like, this is so interesting that he wants the recording.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But just on that point, I was gonna say that. I don't know if you were. Well, two things. One, I listened to so many of those talks that he gave at like, Columbia and the High Museum. And, you know, there's a lot of.

[Virgil Abloh]

Virgil speaking to groups of students like that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And that's when I realized that sometimes it was like he was working things out in real time. And he would listen to him and.

[Virgil Abloh]

He would contradict himself.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And in one sentence it would sound like this very weighty realization about the.

[Virgil Abloh]

Ways of the industry.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And then the next sentence he would contradict that. And I don't know if you remember, just in one of my first sort of searing memory was when he was up for the LVMH prize and we went to that.

[Virgil Abloh]

It was the semifinals and like all.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Of the finalists were there in their little booth with their collections and he was there and I remember sort of trying to get to his collection and there was this sort of scrum of cameras there. And it was because like his ultimate hype guy, the artist formerly known as Kanye, was there and was literally sort.

[Virgil Abloh]

Of sitting there pulling pieces off of.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The racks and going, isn't this the.

[Virgil Abloh]

Best jacket you've ever seen?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, it was quite sweet, but it was also like, let me get.

[Virgil Abloh]

Around you so I can actually get to the guy.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And he was there and, you know.

[Virgil Abloh]

Had this very sort of chill, low key.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Personality and just really just sort of wanted to engage and was willing.

[Virgil Abloh]

To engage and just talk about the.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Clothes and sort of do that kind of, you know, very humble, vulnerable work of chatting up like all of these editors who were coming in and being quite honest about it.

[Jennifer Zuccharini]

The best secrets are worn close to the skin. Enter fleur de mal, the not so secret weapon of women who know what they're doing in their clothes and out of them. Founded by Jennifer Zuccharini in 2012, Floor isn't just lingerie.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's a whole vibe.

[Jennifer Zuccharini]

It's for the woman who owns her energy, whether in the boardroom or the bedroom. Florida mall's whole philosophy is about the transformative power of sensuality, inspiring people to embrace their sexuality and radiate confidence. Confidence in every facet of life. The lingerie is iconic, but the ready to wear, it's criminally underrated. Think dresses that contour and highlight your best assets. Corsets that hit harder than a double espresso. Delicate lingerie that whispers sweet nothings. And pieces that wink and say, don't ask where I got it because you already know. Speaking of secrets, Floor just dropped a rose shaped vibrator that looks like an objet but knows exactly what it's doing. Let's just say it'll be the prettiest.

[Lauren Sherman]

Thing in your bedside drawer.

[Jennifer Zuccharini]

Discretion truly never looks so divine. One in. You can find Flor in all the it girl neighborhoods, SoHo, West Hollywood, and soon enough Williamsburg, obviously use code floor loves [e-mail] for a 15% off your first order, but maybe keep that between us.

[David Spade]

Hey, what's up, Flies? This is David Spade. Dana Carvey. Look at. I know we never actually left, but I'll just say it. We are back with another season of Fly on the Wall. Every episode, including ones with guests, will now be on video. Every Thursday, you'll hear us and see us chatting with big name celebrities. And every Monday, you're stuck with just me and Dana. We react to news, what's trending, viral clips follow and listen to Fly on the Wall everywhere you get your podcasts.

[Lauren Sherman]

Can you talk a bit about. I. I do think I was there. Was Kanye wearing Raph jacket? A Raf Simmons jacket?

[Virgil Abloh]

Probably, yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think was this like 14, maybe?

[Virgil Abloh]

It was either 2014, 2015.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, it was the second season round.

[Lauren Sherman]

Of the prizes because I remember I interviewed Delphine Arnault and she said, Nicola Gaskerre, so. Or no, she said Nicola Jeskare. And I was like, okay, I guess that's how you say it, but everyone says it different. And then I remember Kanye being there and I think having a photo like with Karl Lagerfeld, and it was a big to do, but can you. I wanted to talk about his relationship with Kanye, but then also there was this group of guys that he came up with, many of whom have become successful designers and fashion designers, and they all sort of do a bunch of different things. And there was something Heron Preston, one of these designers, said that. He said that they all met. I think it was in the Laskina part of the book where you'd kind of talk about their scene at Laskina and about them talking to a Nike executive. And the Nike executive saying, you gotta get under their skin. And I can't get that out of my head. Now I'm going to this Nike event tonight. And it is such the definitive thing of what makes all of this stuff work is you have to get under the skin. But anyway, Kanye and Virgil and how did that evolve as Virgil surpassed him in the world of fashion in so many ways. And then this other group, because for me, like Matthew Williams and Heron, who. Heron is great. I really like him. Matthew. I've interviewed a few times backstage and think he's interesting. But it always felt like, to me that they were never going to sort of develop enough because it really was. It was Virgil. I'm so curious how you see the dynamic between all these guys changing as Virgil's star rose.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know, I starting with sort of the Kanye piece of it. What was helpful for me was, like.

[Virgil Abloh]

This was such a discreet period of.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Time before Kanye becomes ye and all of that yayness happens. And it was a great period to look at because it felt, in hindsight, so sort of so optimistic and so exciting because Kanye was coming off of those first two albums, College Dropout and Late Registration.

[Virgil Abloh]

He had his. His star was ascendant.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He had financial means and this interest.

[Virgil Abloh]

In fashion and this incredible ambition.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And it was like he was just.

[Virgil Abloh]

Sweeping so many designers of his generation into this sort of cyclone. And if nothing else, during the reporting.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I was sort of left thinking, my God, like, who didn't he ask to work with? And who didn't at some point contribute.

[Virgil Abloh]

To a collaboration or advise him or something?

[Unnamed Speaker]

And, you know, when Virgil came along, he talked about how, in some ways they were kind of two sides of the same coin, that they connected with this ability or this desire to really.

[Virgil Abloh]

Talk about design in sometimes esoteric ways.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And to just, you know, talk and talk and talk in a way that they hadn't really found another person that they could really go into that kind of go down those sort of rabbit holes with. So that was that initial connection. And then when you had them side.

[Virgil Abloh]

By side, their temperaments were so different.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And that was one of the other things that I felt was important to.

[Virgil Abloh]

Really talk about in the book.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The way that Virgil invited people closer and the way that he was in a constant state of sort of, tell.

[Virgil Abloh]

Me what I don't know, tell me.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Who I need to know.

[Virgil Abloh]

Which can, on the one hand, seem.

[Unnamed Speaker]

A bit sort of cravenly ambitious, but on the other hand is really an.

[Virgil Abloh]

Expression of vulnerability, of saying, I know.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I don't know everything, and I'm looking for guidance.

[Virgil Abloh]

And that can be really attractive.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And Matthew Williams said to me that one of Virgil's strengths was this idea that everything was a prototype, and he.

[Virgil Abloh]

Didn'T feel the need for things to.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Be perfect before he could let them out into the world, which is really.

[Virgil Abloh]

Not how most designers operate.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And this notion of everything being a.

[Virgil Abloh]

Prototype, everything being just sort of part.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Of his practice, one freed him to.

[Virgil Abloh]

Produce an insane amount of product.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It, I think, helped to buffer him.

[Virgil Abloh]

From the criticism of some of that product.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Because if it's just a prototype, well, then you're judging an unfinished thing. Like, it's just part of the process. And if it's a prototype, it is a way of saying that, you know, it doesn't have to kind of rise.

[Virgil Abloh]

To the standards that you set.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So it was, I think, both a.

[Virgil Abloh]

Really savvy way of thinking about the work, a savvy kind of marketing thing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And also a really. A really.

[Virgil Abloh]

Consoling kind of way of.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Protecting your ability to be creative and to experiment in a billion different fields.

[Lauren Sherman]

And I guess it's also this idea of it's not about perfection, it's about the idea. And if the idea is good, that's what shines through.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think one of the things that.

[Virgil Abloh]

Frustrated a lot of designers, more traditionally.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Trained designers, is the point of it is to focus on the product and.

[Virgil Abloh]

To make the most creative, the most.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Beautiful, the most well conceived garment that you can. And that wasn't Virgil's focus.

[Virgil Abloh]

I mean, in having conversations with people.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Who worked with him in the realm of architecture. It really was not about the ultimate garment. It was, what does this garment mean to people? What does this garment say about a community of people?

[Virgil Abloh]

Which is a bit esoteric, but it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Really comes down to, I'm gonna build.

[Virgil Abloh]

This brand, and I want the brand.

[Unnamed Speaker]

To resonate with people. And as long as people think that the brand means something in the same way that, like, you wear a sports.

[Virgil Abloh]

Jersey, it's not about the jersey, it's about the name of the team that's.

[Unnamed Speaker]

On the jersey and all the layers of meaning and community and identity that's connected with walking around wearing a Yankees jersey.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, the story that you tell about the rrl, are they like double LRL rugbys or something that she.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The Ralph Lauren rugbys? Yeah.

[Virgil Abloh]

From Pyrex Vision.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, yes. Yes. So you tell the story of him rehashing this stuff and Jeanne Delion, who. I actually don't know if that's how you pronounce his last name, but that's the name of the game on this podcast. I don't pronounce any names correctly, and I just saw him today. But, you know, Gian is such a good writer, and I've been thinking about it a lot, like, his work in that era was so important, and he obviously has a really nice job at Nordstrom, and I think he loves it, but he really captured that time in a special way. But he says something. You quote a piece he wrote for Complex in the book. Something about, it's not awful that he's charging so much. It's awful that people will pay that much or something like that about these Ralph Lauren rugbys. But what it reminded me of to an extent, and I can't remember if you go into this or not, but it did remind me of what Dapper Dan did in the 80s with taking. And obviously he was taking, like, garment bags from Louis Vuitton and Gucci or whatever and remaking them into things. But did you feel like he. Because he didn't. He didn't come up in a traditional fashion way. He also didn't grow up in a way that. I don't even know if he knew who Dapper Dan was. Like, would that have even been a part of his sort of cultural history? History, growing up in the 90s and 2000s in Chicago, like Illinois or what have you? I know it's not actual Chicago suburbs, but I'm curious what you think. Yeah, I'm curious what you think if there is some connection between that, what Dabber Dan did then and what Virgil started doing and evolved it, too.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think there is a connection, and I think that the same. I mean, there's.

[Virgil Abloh]

I mean, there's some differences, but I.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But I think the. In the same way that what Dapper.

[Virgil Abloh]

Dan was doing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And the controversy connected to that, as well as the revisionism of that era, I think is really interesting. You know, people have celebrated Dapper Dan tremendously, and I think, you know, he did a lot for bringing, you know, a cultural sensibility to the forefront, but at the same time, he was also infringing on copyrights. And, you know, and Virgil had that same kind of sense that you can just take what's out there and make it yours in whatever way that your creativity allows. But when he was growing up in Rockford, which, you know, I go into.

[Virgil Abloh]

The history, a little of the history.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Of that town because it has a really interesting sort of racial segregation history that would have affected him as he was growing up there as a high school student. I mean, it's situated equidistant from Chicago and Iowa, and it's about an hour.

[Virgil Abloh]

From the Wisconsin border.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So it's both isolated, it's very Midwestern, but at the same time, it, you know, is close enough to Chicago. It is still, you know, it was.

[Virgil Abloh]

An industrial kind of city.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And, you know, he's growing up at a time when you can get access.

[Virgil Abloh]

To European fashion magazines and big fashion.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Magazines, but you have to, like, order.

[Virgil Abloh]

Them from, like, the Barnes and Noble.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And so it feels that much more precious that you're getting these bits of.

[Virgil Abloh]

Information and you're seeing this stuff.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And he was definitely a kid who was engaged with brands and logos and, you know, the big luxury brands, but also the streetwear brands that were coming along, the skatewear Brands that were coming up. And I was fascinated because he talks so much about doing things for his, you know, 17 year old self and.

[Virgil Abloh]

Speaking to the 17 year olds.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And fashion was in this incredible state of change in 1997 and the years surrounding that. So even if you had just like the slightest interest in fashion, you would have been pretty captivated by that.

[Virgil Abloh]

And if you were a kid who.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Was interested in skateboarding and hip hop and Nirvana and all that, and you.

[Virgil Abloh]

Had people like Raf Simmons coming into.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The, you know, into the game, that that was like completely captivating and energizing for Virgil. And, you know, he continued to talk about how much he loved Raph's work, even as Raph criticized him as a designer.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's amazing to me that he knew who Raph was because I didn't find out who Raph was till the mid 2000s, probably when Kathy did that profile of him in the Times Magazine. Because it's just I am, I think two years younger than Virgil was and grew up in Pittsburgh and read tons of. I read British Vogue a lot. I was really big Anglophile and was obsessed with fashion in the 90s and read Harper's Bazaar and sure, I read you for your year at Vogue, but I didn't have any sense of. I guess also. I mean, it's menswear, but I thought I loved that part of his history and the Rockford stuff and him growing up in the middle class neighborhood, not where most of the black people grew up. And also his mom being a seamstress and what kind of effect that must have had on him. And just all of it together. And then studying industrial design, which is such a thing of the Midwest, I feel like. Like Frank Lloyd Wright and there's so many great architects and such a. The cute Mies Vander. Yeah. To me that part of informed so much. Do you think there was a time. And I want to talk about. I don't want to keep you forever. And I really have 50 million. I want to kind of talk about the business itself and how he changed it and also what you think his success reflects about the business. But when he got the job at Vuitton.

[Virgil Abloh]

A.

[Lauren Sherman]

Can you sort of paint in a light of like what significance that ended up having and what it had when he was appointed. And also the executive who was the CEO, Michael Burke at the time, I don't think I knew before I read your book that he was the reason Virgil had. Cause he used to be the CEO of Fendi and he had been the lead of A big fendi turnaround when LVMH fully acquired Fendi in the early 2000s. And he was the one who engineered Virgil's internship at Fendi, which I guess, like, I maybe knew, because it's obvious. But that's. That's a long way to say, do you think, like, putting him in that job? It was really obvious from the outside why he was getting the job, that the kind of product he was making was performing well, and it fit well with the kind of. Louis Vuitton's a culture brand. It's not a fashion brand. But can you tell me what you think it meant to the industry, to society, and why you think Michael understood Virgil's value?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, I mean, Michael told me this great story about his first meeting with Virgil, and it was in Tokyo when he was at Fendi, and they were doing a product launch there, and Kanye.

[Virgil Abloh]

Was going to be.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Was going to perform.

[Virgil Abloh]

And the night before their performance, Nigo.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Who had sort of suggested Kanye as a performer, said, you know, hey, do you want to, you know, meet Kanye?

[Virgil Abloh]

Do you want to have dinner?

[Unnamed Speaker]

And so he gets together with them.

[Virgil Abloh]

For dinner, and he's in this room.

[Unnamed Speaker]

With Nigo and Virgil and Kanye and what he describes as these incredibly cool young Japanese kids. And he's sitting there and, you know, he said that they're looking at him like he is like the ultimate fashion insider, but he's sitting there not really talking all that much and looking at.

[Virgil Abloh]

And feeling like the outsider and kind.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Of absorbing and listening to the dialogue between these really sort of interesting, very culturally engaged, like, pop.

[Virgil Abloh]

Culturally engaged young people.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And I thought that was so.

[Virgil Abloh]

Interesting.

[Unnamed Speaker]

To me because he's the one at.

[Virgil Abloh]

The table who is. Who's got all this clout, certainly, like this establishment clout. And he's not taking the lead, but rather he's sitting back and he's listening.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And I think that says a lot about just the way that he operated in that moment as a CEO. And, you know, to bring in Virgil and Kanye as, you know, these interns.

[Virgil Abloh]

I think took a lot of confidence.

[Unnamed Speaker]

In his point of view, but also a lot of confidence in his position within the LVMH universe and says a.

[Virgil Abloh]

Lot about.

[Unnamed Speaker]

His willingness to open things up when it looks like it could be of benefit.

[Virgil Abloh]

And when Virgil got the job, I.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Think it signaled for a lot of people that there was certainly, like, this parallel path that you could take to reach that sort of. To reach that level in fashion. But I think it also said that the fashion industry was moving yet another step away from focusing on sort of design expertise and more, even more on marketing expertise. I think it was the sense that, you know, those skills that have so.

[Virgil Abloh]

Long been associated with what it means.

[Unnamed Speaker]

To be a designer were becoming more a.

[Virgil Abloh]

More of a niche part of the industry or were sort of on their.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Way to being that certainly, you know, through Vuitton's eyes. And it was yet another step that.

[Virgil Abloh]

Vuitton was taking, as you said, as.

[Unnamed Speaker]

A cultural brand, as a brand that saw itself as not necess, not really producing fashion, but as producing culture and helping people sort of put a stamp.

[Virgil Abloh]

On themselves in some way.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it's.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, you know, and the other thing.

[Virgil Abloh]

I would just add to that is.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The response that people had who were Virgil's fans, you know, clearly saw it as a huge win for them. You know, they, you know, because Virgil loves speaking in the first person plural. Like it was always we and which was, you know, fascinating.

[Virgil Abloh]

And when they said it was a.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Win, it was to me, this idea.

[Virgil Abloh]

Okay, so there's no sort of notion.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Of, you know, selling out, which was like a very kind of old fashioned, like baby boy, Gen X way of thinking about wasn't selling out, like going into that boardroom and getting a seat around that table and as opposed to trying to turn over the tables.

[Virgil Abloh]

Like that was the win.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Like getting the big corporate job was.

[Virgil Abloh]

A win, was a victory.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And that was a very different way of thinking about sort of succeeding in fashion through the eyes of a young person.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it is funny how that flipped from basically anyone under the age of 45. Right now, it really is happy to sell out. And everyone over is like, I'm never selling out.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Get smoother, brighter skin instantly. In one easy step, Dermalogica's daily microfoliant gives you the smooth, glowy skin you want without damaging your skin barrier. This gentle exfoliating powder activates with water to smooth out rough texture and brighten skin. It's powerful enough to deliver results, yet gentle enough to use every single day, even on sensitive skin. See the results for yourself. Visit dermalogica.com and use code smooth at cart for an exclusive free gift with $65 purchase.

Just got a new puppy or kitten. Congrats. But also yikes. Between crates, beds, toys, treats, and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune, which is where lemonade pet insurance comes in. It helps cover vet costs so you can focus on what's best for your new pet. The coverage is customizable. Sign up is Quick and easy. And your claims are handled in as little as three seconds. Pro tip. Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a'llemonade.com pet your future self will thank you. Your pet won't. They don't know what insurance is.

[Lauren Sherman]

This is a little bit niche. But how was he as a manager? Because he clearly managed himself well. Like, I just remember hearing he would be at home in Chicago for like a month. I mean, a week. A month. And then he was in Milan for a week to do off white because his partners were in Milan. Then he would be in Paris and then he would go back and then he'd be. Have to be in New York for something. And that job, by the time he was named the menswear designer at Louis Vuitton, that did become a managerial executive job as well. And I think that's a big reason that these sort of more practical designers, in a way are practical creative people or creative directors. I remember once you wrote something about how the word. You hate the word creative, like using it as a person. And I was like, she's so right. I really try not to use it because of you, Robin, but it's hard.

[Virgil Abloh]

It's hard to avoid.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it's hard to avoid. But you, you were right. I'll never forget. But did you think he, like, how was he at managing his time and his, his processes and things? Because he was making things so quickly. That means he could do a lot, but it must. Was he very organized?

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know, I, I will give this, I will answer it with this example, which came via Nike when he was working on the collaboration on the 10, the 10 sneakers, like iconic sneakers that he reimagined for Nike. And normally when they do that kind of thing, you know, there are obviously.

[Virgil Abloh]

Like these meetings that have to be.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Had with various members of the team and they're usually set up via email and, you know, PowerPoints and like the.

[Virgil Abloh]

Whole sort of formal thing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And Virgil just created a text, you know, a text chain and, you know, his beloved WhatsApp and creates this text chain so that people can have conversations in real time and he can approve things in real time and he can send, you know, images and tweaks and, you know, ask to see, see again. One point he wanted to FaceTime in at the factory. So in some ways he was an adept manager because he wasn't a micromanager. But he also used technology to strip away the layers that typically clog up like big companies. And, you know, it was Interesting because, you know, Nike said, like, that's not the way that things normally work. And Virgil just sort of. That was the way that he worked. That's the way he was able to make things move so quickly. And so, I mean, I think that's a good indication of sort of how he managed. In the same way that he hired over Instagram.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it's all very fast and no split decision and no questioning and just.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Stripping away what you could argue were.

[Virgil Abloh]

Just sort of the unnecessary.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Formalities that sort of. That just slow down the process and. Yeah. And just.

[Virgil Abloh]

And really. And just, really just clog things up.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, one of the things that.

[Virgil Abloh]

Nike really loved about working with him.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And one of the things that they.

[Virgil Abloh]

Felt like made that collaboration so successful.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Was that he didn't. His vision of the project didn't end.

[Virgil Abloh]

With creating the product.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It went all the way to how do I get the product onto social media? How do I get it into. In front of like the ultimate sneaker head? How do I then get it into their closet?

[Virgil Abloh]

I mean, he was.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He again, the marketing, the connecting to the. Trying to create a connection, like a personal connection to the end consumer.

[Lauren Sherman]

The time that the mid-2010s when Virgil was really sort of becoming the biggest thing that I, you know, we A. In 20. It was 2018. Right. That he got the LV job. And then 2015 or so, when that's what like he really created that culture of lines out the door at stores and off white and all of that together just became a. It was just the peak of this thing as fashion, as pop culture. Which is hilariously a Raf Simmons quote that I use all the time. It's like when fashion became pop and Virgil was at the center of that. And there was also a lot of conversation at that time around. It was like the height of MeToo, the height of the racial reckoning and bringing up Dapper Dan again. It was the whole Dapper Dan Gucci appropriation and bringing Dapper Dan into the fold of Gucci and Alessandro Michele and this conversation around, like, where do things come from and how do we credit them? So this is something that he's commenting on, by the way. He does all of this stuff. And you go into this in depth about and his process and the frustrations and also the fascinating. The compelling thing about it. But one thing I am curious to know from you from the business perspective. Fast forwarding to 2020, probably before Virgil passed away, but people kind of knew he was sick or they knew something was going on but obviously it was also during COVID and. And things were crazy. And I remember when people in the US got the stimulus checks and I remember talking to a luxury executive and essentially what he said was that Virgil. And then the fact that a lot of middle class people or I mean which in in the US is considered, I guess considered middle class but still hard to live on. $90,000 or whatever were had these stimulus checks and they were also getting paid. It sort of broke open. I think Louis Vuitton's best year in the US ever was 2022 or 2023. It was, I mean sure, 2024 was even better, but it was, it really broke it open. And it was a lot of middle class people, a lot of black people who had never shopped luxury before or who were only starting to really open that door. And I remember having conversations and I worked at BoF at the time and Sheena who wrote about diversity and inclusion, doing interviews with executives about. They were so reductive about the entry consumer and not just the high net worth consumer and also the black consumer and saying, oh, we're going to make things in bright colors or whatever, like just like really borderline racist shit. And I remember the way that Louis Vuitton had opened it up. It's an interesting. Let me see how I can articulate this. So much of fashion is appropriated from black culture, which you are the consummate. Every piece that you wrote during that time and sort of tracking what happened with Alessandro and all these different things. And it definitely feels like it kind of started in that early Kanye era. And I mean it was before that it was like as forever. But the modern luxury world sort of really taking from hip hop and black culture and music with primarily black artists and suddenly really commercializing it. And Virgil, to me, like you said it like the, the way he said we and this was in ours and all of that stuff like him getting that job was sort of like, okay, they've been stealing from me all this time and I've been commenting on the way this industry is stolen and now I'm actually the one who's in charge. And it seemed to make do an unlock for the industry where I think a level of consumer of every race who didn't previously think that they could afford luxury fashion felt like it was possible. That was extremely inarticulate. But do you think, how do you see that process of. And what does Virgil being at Louis Vuitton open up commercially for the industry? And what does it. Did it make any of it right of the way that the industry had been appropriating other cultures for forever.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think it began a process of making things right, or I should say, I think it was part of a.

[Virgil Abloh]

Process of making things right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know, Virgil's use of we.

[Virgil Abloh]

Was.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, I think was important in bringing in consumers and making them feel.

[Virgil Abloh]

Like they had a stake in what he was doing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But I also think that it was reflective of this idea that you, you know, you mentioned that, you know, here is this culture that is broad and prolific and that fashion has been, you.

[Virgil Abloh]

Know, scooping out bits and pieces of and using for inspiration.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And now here is someone of that culture who is in a position to take hold of the storytelling and the.

[Virgil Abloh]

Narratives about it and decide.

[Unnamed Speaker]

How, and decide what is what is perceived as.

[Virgil Abloh]

Luxury and what's perceived as valuable and beautiful and all of those things.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And, you know, I love, and I can't lay claim to this, this take on it, but, you know, the idea.

[Virgil Abloh]

That luxury has been so long described.

[Unnamed Speaker]

By, as things, you know, you know, brand DNA that involves, I don't know, like, you know, Italian nuns in a convent creating antique lace or, you know, the things about like, fine wines being.

[Virgil Abloh]

The secrets held by monks and all.

[Unnamed Speaker]

This kind of sort of romantic storytelling.

[Virgil Abloh]

That has lended an incredible amount of value to these products. And there's also storytelling that is wrapped.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Around beautifully woven kente cloth or mud.

[Virgil Abloh]

Cloth or hand carved chairs from any.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Number of, you know, in Ghana or wherever it might be, or, you know.

[Virgil Abloh]

Ideas coming from the bronze or Detroit and like the world of hip hop.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And fashion has always felt like they needed to take those ideas and gussy them up with, you know, a designer name and then they become luxury. And I love that. What Virgil, a huge part of what Virgil was doing was saying, look, this is luxury because people value it. And just because. But what fashion hasn't been doing is taking the people who attach value to it as important as their point of view as being important. And I love that he was essentially saying luxury is defined by the people.

[Virgil Abloh]

Who are in charge of the storytelling.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And they're the ones who are assigning.

[Virgil Abloh]

Labels to these things.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And I am in a position to assign a label of luxury and value to this T shirt that appeals to this community that I call we or I can assign luxury and value to, you know, a varsity jacket that has, you know, my logo on the back of it. And, you know, ultimately I think that was sort of the way that the.

[Virgil Abloh]

Process was pushed forward.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And I think that was the lesson that a lot of the people who admired Virgil respected, even if they didn't love the product, I think they respected his. The way that he wove the narrative around it and how that narrative elevated the culture that he, you know, sort.

[Virgil Abloh]

Of felt that he was coming out of.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I don't know if fashion as an industry took that. Had that as, like, the lesson that.

[Virgil Abloh]

They took away from Virgil's success.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think that in some ways, the lesson that they took was not so much about, you need to change the.

[Virgil Abloh]

Way that you think about the storytelling surrounding luxury.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And it was more, we need to find someone who has that same sense.

[Virgil Abloh]

Of community and that same sense of.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Sense fandom that we can bring in and then reach that customer.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it. It. It wasn't about the context. It was about the T shirt. And now there is a whole new layer of. Of business that they all. All these brands have that won't go away, even though there's not, you know, merch on the Runway as much as there used to be there. This layer of the business, it's a. Of in the triangle. It's wedged between beauty and handbags, and that is. Or ready to wear. And so that part of it, the sort of street wear as a luxury category, that's how they saw it. They didn't see the context thing, though. I mean, one thing. You are best known outside of the fashion industry as a. The only fashion critic to ever win the Pulitzer Prize so far. I'm sure that it will happen for someone else someday, but for me, the real value in what you do and what I think you did differently than a lot of your peers is you moved. You brought context to clothes and to writing about fashion earlier than a lot of other people. And I remember once there was a Ralph Lauren Runway show, and I was like, the beach or something, you know, they're all the same. And I wrote a review, and they were mad about the review. They called me. I was like, I don't think this feels modern or whatever. And I looked at your review, and the headline was, do you think this is cool? No. And I was like, oh, my God. That's what I was trying to say. And she just said it. But the thing is, you were 100% right. We obviously really admire Ralph Lauren's work and et cetera, but you really always just got to the point. And you also were able to give. Because once everyone could see the photos of the clothes, describing the clothes wasn't valuable anymore. And you got that really quickly. And I think that's why your work has been so important for the last 15 years of the industry, because it did become such a direct business. But I'm curious, from your perspective, you now write about fashion still, but all different parts of culture. And you've covered the business, you covered Runway shows, you did everything. You really understand the business holistically. What do you think about that idea of creating context? Do you think we're at a point now that we're kind of past that because it's just so. Everything is so granular? Or did you feel that shift where the context became more important than the thing itself?

[Virgil Abloh]

Good question.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I'm not sure that the context has.

[Virgil Abloh]

Become more important than the thing itself.

[Unnamed Speaker]

In all cases, I sort of feel.

[Lauren Sherman]

Like.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The larger piece of the fashion pie, the context does sort of supersede the product because the product isn't necessarily that interesting. It's about who's putting it out and.

[Virgil Abloh]

What are they telling me this is going to do for me?

[Unnamed Speaker]

How is this going to make me stand out?

[Virgil Abloh]

Or who is this going to connect me to?

[Unnamed Speaker]

What's sort of the meaning of it all? I mean, I feel like more than ever fashion is political. And, you know, you can't, for me, I certainly can't look at, you know, long ringlets of hair and false eyelashes and lots of makeup and a tight.

[Virgil Abloh]

Fitting dress and not feel that that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Is a kind of political statement in this moment.

[Lauren Sherman]

Do you like my Republican hair, Robin?

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's so not Republican hair.

[Lauren Sherman]

Thank you. It's really, it's too frizzy today. Sometimes I am like, give me a Republican blowout.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But I do think that there remains this part of the industry that really is about creating beautiful, well crafted, just product that is meant to bring an.

[Virgil Abloh]

Immense, irrational kind of delight.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And I love that for fashion and.

[Virgil Abloh]

I love that for fashion consumers.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And I love what, I love that that sort of continues in this whole lineage of excellence in fashion and excellence and desire that everybody can participate in.

[Virgil Abloh]

And everybody can aspire to. But I also think that the other.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Part is really important and interesting and really powerful because that's telling us who we are in any given moment, for.

[Virgil Abloh]

Better or for worse.

[Lauren Sherman]

I have thought about Long Nguyen, our close, mutual, close friend who died a couple years ago a lot while I was reading your book, because of. He was a big Virgil fan and also was your biggest fan in the whole world. He idolized you. I can't, I mean, I just can't even imagine how much he came up for you while you were doing this. But what do you think, thinking of someone like Long and what he would think about this book and what he would have. He would have obviously called it fabulous. But what do you think Virgil's sort of. In the end, because we're still so close to it, it's still happening. His thing is still happening. What do you think his contribution is going to be to culture? Do you think it is a matter of letting go a little bit and not understanding that perfectionism doesn't necessarily get you to the next plane of enlightenment? Or what do you think his. His thing, you know, 50 years from now, when some artist or a designer talks about him like he talked about Duchamp and the toilet, what do you think they are going to be saying?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, first, I think Long would have had a lot to say and would have debated many, many aspects of this book. And one of my favorite pictures in this book is a photograph that Long texted me from the final show that was an homage to Virgil in Miami, and, of course, texted me the photograph with his usual vivid commentary on the entire experience.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, my God.

[Virgil Abloh]

So. And it brought me great joy to be able to use that photograph.

[Lauren Sherman]

So great.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But the thing. The thing that. The line that Virgil said when he.

[Virgil Abloh]

Was talking about getting the job at.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Vuitton, but also when he essentially voiced his desire to, you know, get the.

[Virgil Abloh]

Job at Givenchy, when that was open.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know, he said, you know, people are surprised that, you know, I got this job, but, you know, why not me? I, you know, I built this company. I design product.

[Virgil Abloh]

I have a great sense of, you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Know, aesthetics and creativity, and I love that.

[Virgil Abloh]

The question, why not me? Wasn't something that he was asking himself. He was asking the industry.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And if there's any sort of, like, wonderful legacy that is not dependent on CEOs and the establishment or anyone else, it is that he, I think, has encouraged designers, other creative people who feel like they're outside, who feel like despite there being prizes and scholarships and various.

[Virgil Abloh]

You know, programs that are met to pave the way, but who feel like they can't even figure out where the.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Front door is, let alone, you know.

[Virgil Abloh]

Get access to these different programs, that they will ask, why not me?

[Unnamed Speaker]

And not ask that of themselves, but ask it of the industry and feel.

[Virgil Abloh]

Like, well, of course them, there is.

[Unnamed Speaker]

No reason why not you. And I think that leaning into that, celebrating that, holding on to that is seems like a very simple thing, but it also can be an enormous thing because so often the hurdle for people who feel like they're outside is like the many questions they have about their own. The. About their own sort of right to be in a particular place.

[Lauren Sherman]

Robin, I really want to talk to you about how you got into fashion journalism and also many other things, but we are already way past an hour, so you're going to have to come back for, for part two.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Please let me come back private.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes, I mean, you should come. You can just come back on, on News Tuesdays, too, because you. I, I always want your opinion, but I, I think like to end. Congratulation. A, congratulations. And B, why are you still a journalist? Why are you still doing it like you've. You've been doing this? You. You started it. Did you start at the Detroit Free Press, or were you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I did, yeah.

[Virgil Abloh]

I started at the Design Free Press.

[Lauren Sherman]

And you, and you, you've covered fashion for a long time now. As I said, you write more broadly about culture, but what keeps you, keeps you going. Because I'm sure there's going to be a lot of young journalists who listen to this that aspire to, to say, why not me about having your job someday?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Because I love writing and I'm curious about all kinds of people and ideas and because I have been lucky enough to be able to write about creative industries, whether fashion, now being able to write more about visual artists.

[Virgil Abloh]

People who.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Create and build culture, and our sort of social structure.

[Virgil Abloh]

And those things are relentlessly fascinating and forever changing. And just when you think that you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Know what's going to happen next, you're completely proven wrong. I mean, I think when I lose my ability to be shocked is when I would leave journalism. And for what it's worth, I am shocked every day.

[Lauren Sherman]

I guess that part of it's not that hard. That's a good rule to live by. Robin, thank you for everything. Thank you for being such an inspiration to so many people and teaching us so much about how life works, how culture works, and how fashion industry works. But I am so proud to call you my friend and thank you for being here.

[Virgil Abloh]

Thank you so much.

[Lauren Sherman]

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landry, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.