Gee Thanks, It’s From Uniqlo

Summary

Fashion People Podcast — “Gee Thanks, It’s From Uniqlo”

Host: Lauren Sherman
Guest: Lauren Collins (Paris correspondent, The New Yorker)
Release Date: December 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Fashion People features Lauren Sherman in conversation with Lauren Collins, the Paris correspondent for The New Yorker. The discussion centers on Collins’ recent deep dive into Uniqlo — exploring the Japanese retailer’s sweeping global influence, the unique “lifewear” philosophy, Uniqlo’s approach to design and innovation, and the paradoxes of its marketing, collaborations, and digital experience. The episode offers valuable insider context for anyone interested in how Uniqlo is quietly but rapidly redefining everyday fashion worldwide.

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Table of Contents

1. Introducing Lauren Collins and Uniqlo (03:43–09:10)
2. Uniqlo’s Sizing Dilemmas and Global Expansion (06:32–09:10)
3. Why Write About Uniqlo? The IKEA Parallel and Company Profile (11:33–13:43)
4. Uniqlo: Identity, Scale, and the ‘Universal Donor’ of Fashion (16:13–19:52)
5. The Lifewear Philosophy and Technical Product Superiority (19:52–23:45)
6. Product Tidbits: Merino Polo, HeatTech, and E-commerce Woes (23:45–27:46)
7. The Enigma of Lifewear and Uniqlo’s Earnestness (27:46–29:37)
8. Positioning in Europe vs. US, ‘Universal Donor’ in Practice (29:37–33:42)
9. Competing with Amazon, Walmart, and the Value Proposition (34:44–39:42)
10. Collaborations: Why So Many Star Designers? (39:42–46:22)
11. Impact for Designers and Luxury’s Shifting Meaning (46:22–47:47)
12. Closing Thoughts and Recommendations (47:47–48:48)

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1. Introducing Lauren Collins and Uniqlo (03:43–09:10)

• Lauren Collins is The New Yorker’s Paris correspondent, with a background in fashion journalism (applying both a words- and image-focused approach).
• Collins recently authored an institutional profile of Uniqlo for The New Yorker.
• Playful banter about breakfast highlights the informality and relatability of the discussion.

“The reason I know so much about Uniqlo is because I wrote a big kind of institutional profile of the company for the New Yorker.”
— Lauren Collins (09:11)

Notable Moment

• Lauren Sherman shares an anecdote about making cinnamon sugar toast for her son, setting a casual, personal tone.

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2. Uniqlo’s Sizing Dilemmas and Global Expansion (06:32–09:10)

• Discussion of Uniqlo’s complicated sizing, rooted in Japanese sizing standards. For example, popular items like the “50 Colors” sock only start at a European 39 — frustrating for smaller-footed shoppers.
• U.S. offerings above XL are often only available online and can be hard to find.
• Lauren Collins:

  “Uniqlo sizing—there are some strange things going on... when they made their first foray into the US…people were really flummoxed.” (07:06)

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3. Why Write About Uniqlo? The IKEA Parallel and Company Profile (11:33–13:43)

• Collins first wanted to write about Uniqlo years ago, after noticing it dominating in affordable apparel much like IKEA did for home goods.
• Initial attempts to access Uniqlo for a profile failed; the project only materialized after the company hired designer Clare Waight Keller.
• Interesting note: Uniqlo originally spelled with a 'C' (anecdote for holiday parties!).

“I started to see Uniqlo kind of doing many of the same things and dominating this, like, affordable fashion space in similar ways to what IKEA has done for the home.”
— Lauren Collins (11:49)

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<a name="uniqlo-identity"></a>

4. Uniqlo: Identity, Scale, and the ‘Universal Donor’ of Fashion (16:13–19:52)

• Founded: 1984 by Tadashi Yanai (still at the helm as Japan’s 2nd richest man).
• Over 2,500 global stores; “one in four Japanese people is said to own a Uniqlo puffer.”
• In 2024, parent Fast Retailing generated nearly $20B in revenue and $3B in profit.
• Global Ambition: Now the world’s 3rd largest apparel retailer — “hot on the heels of H&M and Inditex (Zara) but growing faster.”
• Collins’ take: Uniqlo as the “universal donor of fashion”—clothes that unobtrusively fit any look or lifestyle.
• Fascinating impact on culture: If Uniqlo moves a pocket on a pant, it may subtly change global behaviors.

“I see Uniqlo, and I wrote this in the piece, as kind of the universal donor of fashion, Uniqlo, like, can mix kind of unobtrusively with any lifestyle, any aesthetic.”
— Lauren Collins (17:46)

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5. The Lifewear Philosophy and Technical Product Superiority (19:52–23:45)

• Lifewear: Uniqlo’s core, if opaque, mantra (“impenetrable” as Sherman says).
• Success built on technical innovation—e.g., HeatTech.
• The product’s superior practicality is its own form of marketing; customers embrace products because they work, even when marketing doesn’t connect.

“Heat tech is amazing. Like I wear a black turtleneck sometimes…in New York last week, it was freezing. I wore one…almost under every single outfit I had on, so I didn't have to wear a giant coat.”
— Lauren Sherman (21:15)

• Sherman argues Uniqlo's technical emphasis (quality, innovative fabric, practical design) is what sets it apart, more than its storytelling.

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6. Product Tidbits: Merino Polo, HeatTech, and E-commerce Woes (23:45–27:46)

• Materials Partnership: Uniqlo’s technical edge stems from a deep partnership with Toray (a Japanese textile manufacturer). They collaborate on product innovation—sometimes Toray suggests ideas, other times Uniqlo requests textiles to meet specific functions.
• Collins' favorite deep cut: the merino polo — “navy blue and hunter green”—a staple for 2025.
• Uniqlo’s e-commerce is notoriously clunky, text-heavy, and confusing, leading to “rage clicks” (new term learned from Sarah Shapiro).

“[E-commerce]…I had somebody, when I was reporting this piece…I felt like I was signing up for a dating app…passwords, it’s all kinds of stuff…just to buy some socks and underwear.”
— Lauren Collins (25:48)

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7. The Enigma of Lifewear and Uniqlo’s Earnestness (27:46–29:37)

• Lifewear is mysterious—even when explained by company insiders. Collins interviewed a Japanese literature translator Uniqlo hired to help with the slogan.
• Deliberate ambiguity: the company wants you to “stop and think about what it meant.”
• Uniqlo’s approach is painstaking, earnest, and slightly opaque, reflecting intense corporate sincerity rather than buzzy fast fashion.

“…They tried to make it…a little tricky…I think they wanted people to stop and think about what it meant…”
— Lauren Collins (28:07)

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8. Positioning in Europe vs. US, ‘Universal Donor’ in Practice (29:37–33:42)

• In both Europe and the US, Uniqlo is increasingly perceived as a base layer for everyone—a neutral, functional anchor to more expressive wardrobes.
• Retail strategy in Europe focuses on large, beautiful flagship locations (e.g., Opéra in Paris), while in the US, earlier mall-based forays flopped.
• Unlike competitors, Uniqlo doesn’t envision customers in head-to-toe Uniqlo; rather, their pieces mix in seamlessly with any style.

“They don't envision people wearing Uniqlo head to toe. It's always meant as…the universal donor…it's going to be able to go with everything.”
— Lauren Collins (32:28)

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9. Competing with Amazon, Walmart, and the Value Proposition (34:44–39:42)

• In Japan: Uniqlo is the discount baseline—akin to Walmart or Amazon in the US.
• Brand awareness: There's even the Japanese term “unibare” for when someone recognizes you’re in Uniqlo rather than pricier brands.
• Originally, Yanai considered penetrating the US market by buying a major established brand (e.g., J.Crew or Gap), but this strategy never materialized—so now, Uniqlo is attempting organic growth after all.
• Value prop in the West is stronger due to higher perceived quality and design collaboration.

“In Japan, Uniqlo is the Walmart, Amazon option… but the positioning is a little bit different in the US.”
— Lauren Collins (36:28)

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10. Collaborations: Why So Many Star Designers? (39:42–46:22)

• In the West, collaborations with high-profile designers like Alexander Wang, JW Anderson, Christophe Lemaire, and, most recently, Clare Waight Keller, elevate Uniqlo’s brand.
• Clare Waight Keller (notably of Meghan Markle’s wedding dress) has taken on a deep creative role, particularly for women’s categories.
• Collaborations both elevate the Uniqlo brand and offer designers a rare opportunity to reach the literal global masses with their work, which is often deeply gratifying.

“If you can get something…Amazon, Walmart, ish priced…designed by someone who also made Meghan Markle's wedding dress…I mean, you know, which one are you going to pick?”
— Lauren Collins (42:47)

“[Clare Waight Keller] was really brought in to kind of, like, zhuzh up the women's offering…She seemed a little bit exhilarated in a way that she’d spent so much of her career…making clothes that hang in closets. And now she's…dressing the masses.”
— Lauren Collins (44:30)

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11. Impact for Designers and Luxury’s Shifting Meaning (46:22–47:47)

• Even as luxury feels less central to contemporary consumer habits, Uniqlo offers designers like Waight Keller a meaningful way to impact people’s lives at scale.
• For designers, there’s energy and satisfaction in making clothes for millions to actually wear.
• Sherman notes that while she’s used to “everyone in a certain group” reading her work, designers at Uniqlo reach broader swathes of people.

“If I were a designer, I’d want people to wear my clothes. Wouldn't you?”
— Lauren Collins (47:02)

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12. Closing Thoughts and Recommendations (47:47–48:48)

• Collins’ next piece is still in the works and will have only a tangential relationship to fashion.
• Her Substack newsletter is called Lettres Recommende — “my repository for just all the cool little things that slip through the cracks.”
• The episode closes with well wishes for the holidays and mutual compliments.

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Key Quotes

• “Uniqlo was founded in 1984 by Tadashi Yanai, who is still at the top of the company…second richest man in Japan…”
  — Lauren Collins (16:13)
• “One in four Japanese people is said to own a Uniqlo puffer…ubiquitous in Japan and becoming increasingly so elsewhere.”
  — Lauren Collins (17:14)
• “I see Uniqlo as…kind of the universal donor of fashion…can mix unobtrusively with any lifestyle, any aesthetic.”
  — Lauren Collins (17:46)
• “The product is just so much better than anything else out there…that has—the product is the marketing.”
  — Lauren Sherman (22:01)
• “They tried to make [Lifewear] a little tricky. I think they wanted people to stop and think about what it meant.”
  — Lauren Collins (28:07)
• “Clare Waight Keller was also very, very keen to emphasize…in a moment where, you know, in European high fashion, women have kind of gone extinct, she was like, I'm a female designer, and I'm at the head creatively, of the third biggest fashion company in the world.”
  — Lauren Collins (45:41)

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Tone

Conversational, insider-y, slightly irreverent — blending industry expertise with the everyday realities of fashion consumers.

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Takeaways

• Uniqlo’s growth story is more about relentless refinement and technical superiority than fleeting trends.
• “Lifewear” is both a genuine philosophy and a deliberately mysterious slogan, meant to make consumers pause.
• Technical innovation, thoughtful collaborations, and an aura of earnestness distinguish Uniqlo from fast fashion peers—even as its e-commerce and sizing remain frustrating.
• For designers, Uniqlo offers a thrilling canvas: high design, enormous reach, and the chance to influence daily life at a global scale.

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For anyone curious about Uniqlo’s outsize presence in the global wardrobe — and its unassuming but transformative approach to fashion — this episode is a revealing listen.

Transcript

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We understand behind every prescription is a person. Visit optum.com redefinerx to learn more. You may or may not be surprised to hear that I am pro therapy. I've been using it as a tool since I was a kid and I return to it when I'm going through something in my life that needs an outside witness. I consider it preventative medicine. The problem these days is that so many therapists are not covered by insurance. The good news is that Rula is trying to solve for that. Their therapists, who are licensed professionals, are covered by over 100 insurance plans and the average copay is just $15 per person. I am also very into interviewing a bunch of therapists before I choose one. Rula also makes that easy because they know that if you find the right one, you'll stick with it. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.comfashion to get started. After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. That's r u l a.com fashion. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet, and today with me on the show is the New Yorker's Lauren Collins. She's here to discuss her recent deep dive on one of the most intriguing retailers of our time, uniqlo. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the world, and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News FashionPeople to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. It has been a week. When is it not? I have got lots of details on the Dario Vitale exit in Line Sheet. He left Versace. He was the designer there. Sarah Shapiro looked at how fashion influencers are exploiting substack. Rachel Strugatz covered the comeback of John Dempsey, everyone's favorite once canceled beauty exec. And on Thursday, no longer canceled. On. On Thursday, I covered what's really happening in Saks Fifth Avenue right now. People are thinking something big's gonna happen there in the next few weeks. Some sort of announcement or months, maybe a restructuring of the business. We don't know yet. I. Maybe Richard Baker will. Will plan something else or figure something else. Saudi is very smart. So we'll check out my reporting for that and we will see. I hope you are enjoying your holiday party. Semi reports from New York Lo a lot in Paris. Reminder I'm in LA these next few weeks and perhaps I'll mention them next week. The best party of the week for me was obviously Max Stein's, but there were a few runners up and interesting things happened. So we could chat about it next week. And let's get going with Lauren. Lauren Collins, welcome to Fashion People.

[B]

Hi, Lauren. I'm so happy to be here with you.

[A]

What did you have for breakfast this morning?

[B]

Nothing. I had a cup of tea, but only because it's kind of a long story. Well, anyway, not my usual breakfast recipe routine, but there were extenuating circumstances.

[A]

What do you typically have for breakfast?

[B]

My cup of tea. No. Why not?

[A]

I'll tell you.

[B]

Want to hear about a good breakfast I had?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I was in London last week on a story and I woke up really early and I was at the door of Honey & Co. At 8am when it.

[A]

Opened. So.

[B]

Good. Shakshuka. I didn't have a cup of tea. I had a hot chocolate. I don't know what I was doing. Sweet.

[A]

Salty. That sounds.

[B]

Amazing. I just wouldn't like that. You know, I was escaping from Paris so I could do the sucre sale anytime I wanted to. And I think I even had. I think I had something else. But anyway, that was my best breakfast recently, if you're interested in.

[A]

That. That's delicious. I also don't eat breakfast much anymore. I did have breakfast this morning. It was very good. But you know what? I made my son this morning because my husband's out of town and was like, he didn't know what he wanted. He didn't want avocado toast. He didn't. I burned his egg yesterday. Like, I made him a piece of cinnamon sugar.

[B]

Toast. Ooh, an oldie but a.

[A]

Goodie. It was so. He was like, I want more. I was like, no. It's like this cannot be a thing you eat every day for Breakfast, but it is a special breakfast. And he was just like, this is the best thing ever. It was so.

[B]

Good. Did you let him do the sprinkling or did you do it.

[A]

Yourself? I did it because he is like me and like his father to an extent, doesn't understand moderation and over sprinkler in the making. Oh, yeah, yeah. He just wants more and more and more and more and more. It's definitely a trait he gets from me. Actually. Dan can have like a half a piece of chocolate and he's like, I'm good, but I want more and more and more. And he was just like, oh, my God. I didn't know that this is a possible thing to eat. He was very excited. He was like, you're going to put sugar on food and then we're just going to eat it like that. It was. It was a cute moment and.

[B]

Important. Tiffany, in every boy's.

[A]

Life. Yes. Did you. When you were in London, did you go to a Uniqlo? They're very big.

[B]

There. No, I didn't. Only because I have a friendly neighborhood Uniqlo that keeps me well supplied here in Paris. But we can get into this. I was reading that Uniqlo's revenues in Japan have been thoroughly helped by the wave of mass tourism to Japan and, you know, of Americans and Europeans taking advantage of the exchange rate. But anyway, yeah, Uniqlo shopping while on holiday is a whole, like, little sliver of.

[A]

Uniqlo. It's true. I've bought Uniqlo U items in Japan that are way too short in the.

[B]

Arms. I know. I don't have that problem, but I'm so sorry for.

[A]

You. Yes, it's.

[B]

It'S.

[A]

It. Japan is a hard place if you. I am tall. I'm not that tall. I'm like 5 8. My friend Molly, who is, I think 5 11, probably she thought I was like, average.

[B]

Size. I should state for our listeners that I am not tall by.

[A]

Coming. How tall are you? 53 or 5 4? You're 5 2.

[B]

Okay. Uniqlo. I mean, if you want to get into it. Uniqlo sizing. There are some strange things going on with the sizing at Uniqlo. When they made their kind of first foray into the US in the early 2000s, people were really flummoxed by the sizing. But even now, like, they've had a lot of time to kind of contend with that. And you'll still find. This is my personal beef about Uniqlo sizing. There is an item called it's like the famous stock of 50 colors. And this is the item that everybody loves. And it shows up on every best of list. And it's like the sub stackers, darling. And it made the list index. You know, it was this first luxury good that appeared on this on the list index, maybe earlier this year. But anyway, what's really annoying about it is it only starts at European size 39. It's, it's like at least perfect for.

[A]

Me. That's my shoe.

[B]

Size. Yeah, well, I'm a 37 and I went in on these 50 colors of socks. But instead I'm left with, you know, kind of like Nordic patterns or like the really ugly colors that they make only for the women's range. So. So that's a Uniqlo sizing thing. The other thing is that if I am correctly informed, everything above Extra large. So Extra Extra and Extra Extra Extra is available only online in the US it exists, but it's like really hard to come by. So, yeah, Uniqlo sizing are really. They gotta size down those socks and you think also because they're famous for having like, you have to size up and everything in Uniqlo, they're famous for everything being really small because it's, you know, the base for their sizes are Japanese sizes which don't correspond to American and European ones necessarily. But anyway, I can't believe at a, you know, not so anomalous 37, I can't get it on these.

[A]

Socks. The irony, I did read that Extra Extra and Extra Extra l online last night when I was rereading your piece. So it was fact checked by the New Yorker. So I believe that that is correct. Lauren, why do you know so much about Uniqlo? Tell us who you.

[B]

Are. And I am the, yeah, self appointed Uniqlo expert, at least for the time being. But the reason I know so much about Uniqlo is because I wrote a big kind of institutional profile of the company for the New Yorker.

[A]

Recently. So you are the New Yorker's Paris correspondent, which is the coolest job at the New Yorker, I would say. But you write about a lot of different things. You end up writing about the fashion industry a lot because Paris is a company town and so you're interacting with fashion industry people and executives all the time. And you also, were you Michael Roberts.

[B]

Assistant? I think I may have been for. For a short time, but I more officially was Jay Fielden and Hamish Bulls assistant for. Oh my God, a short but happy year. Way back in the day. It was, I think it was like the actual year that the Devil Wears Prada was published, if I am correct, would have been 2002, 2003. So I started my career, that was my first job in journalism, was as an editorial assistant on the. And let me stress the editorial. Well, and the assistant. But the point is that I was on the words and not the fashion picture side of Vogue. So, yeah, that's kind of my, like, that's my fashion resume. My thin fashion resume. But it's true that, you know, I've been living in Paris for 10 years now, covering France for the New Yorker. And as one of the world's fashion capitals, at least, you know, there's. There's just an embarrassment of riches to. To write about in terms of fashion in Paris. And I love writing about fashion. I mean, even though it's not my, you know, exclusive beat, I see it as one of the kind of last preserves of for better, for worse, interesting characters. I mean, sometimes they're interesting because they're reprehensible. Sometimes they're interesting because they're just incredibly creative. Sometimes they're interesting because the business story is, you know, tantalizing. So anyway, yeah, I love writing about fashion, and though I don't do it all the time, I'm kind of always excited to when I get the.

[A]

Chance. We love when you do it. So why did you choose Uniqlo as a topic? Because it's not. It's not a French brand. It's very prevalent in. In France these days. But what attracted you to the story of Uniqlo first spelled with a.

[B]

C? Yeah, well. So, yeah, we should. We should just state now for anyone who's listening, because this is a fun fact that you can trot out at Christmas. Maybe people will care, maybe they won't. But Uniqlo is actually short for unique clothing. And I have a whole theory about where this name came from that I can tell you later. But anyhow, I didn't actually want to write this story now. I wanted to write it four or five years ago. And the reason I started thinking about Uniqlo, I had written a story about IKEA a long time ago, and I started to see Uniqlo kind of doing many of the same things and dominating this, like, affordable fashion space in. In similar ways to what IKEA has done for the home. So I thought, well, this would be interesting. It would be interesting to just figure out, like, what Uniqlo is, where it comes from, what their goals are. And anyway, so, yeah, four or five years ago, I kind of jumped through a bunch of hoops, like pitched it to their people, thought we were getting really close. And just when I thought they were about to say yes, they ghosted me. Or, I mean, I won't say ghosted, but they pulled out, decided not to do the story. And I remember writing that kind of like, would you care to tell me why? And never heard much more Shout out to Aldo. I don't think it. I don't, I don't think it was.

[A]

Aldo. We love Aldo is the best. I love.

[B]

Him. I will not name any names, but anyway, I was hoping to do it ages ago and it just didn't really materialize. But when I read that they'd hired Claire Wake Keller, I thought that it might be a good opportunity to revive the idea. And I was right. Like this time around I emailed them and was like, hey, we almost did this piece a while ago. Would you be interested in doing it now? And so that, yeah, that's how like Uniqlo New Yorker profile 2025 came.

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[A]

Podcasts. So can you kind of walk us through, through your lens, what Uniqlo is to you and its like, current place in the culture. Because I agree that the Clair Heyer is really interesting and you got to a place of truth with it that I think maybe a lot of fashion, traditional fashion writers wouldn't have. But, like, what is Uniqlo to you? And like, how have you seen it develop globally through France, but then also as an American watching it in the US as.

[B]

Well? Well, okay, just so just prosaically, Uniqlo was founded in 1984 by Tadashi and I, who is still at the top of the company. I mean, he's. He's made several kind of, you know, performative efforts at retiring and turning the reins over to someone else, but he still runs the show. And he is the second richest man in Japan at this point. The company has over 2,500 stores in Asia, Europe and North America. One in four Japanese people is said to own a Uniqlo puffer. So this is ubiquitous in Japan and becoming increasingly so elsewhere. And this is something that I think is important to kind of home in on now. Last year, Fast Retailing, which is the holding company that controls Uniqlo, had its best year ever, generating close to $20 billion in revenue and $3 billion in profit. And this makes it the world's third largest apparel retailer, manufacturer and retailer. So the point is, Zara is hot on the heels of H and M and Inditex, the parent company of Zara. And although Uniqlo is third, it's growing faster than both of them. So the company's stated goal is to be the number, the number one fashion company in the world. And they're really making strides in that direction. But as far as what it means to me, like, I see Uniqlo and I wrote this in the piece, as kind of the universal donor of fashion, Uniclo, like, can mix kind of unobtrusively with any lifestyle, any esthetic. Yeah. It's like, I think if you were to try to think of a brand that almost anyone would have in their closets, at least in places where it's accessible, like, Uniqlo would be a really good candidate for that. So I was interested in that. I'm really interested in the way that having this kind of, like, perspective, this mass perspective on how people live, I'M interested in the sociological dimensions of it. I had this fantasy, and I was never able to, like, really prove it through my reporting, although I have other. Other examples. But I was like, what happens if you make a billion pairs of cargo pants a year? I mean, first of all, ecological implications are major. But let's talk about kind of sociology for a minute. I was like, if Uniqlo moves a pair of a pocket on a pair of pants, does that mean that, like, you know, X number of people, like, don't get pickpocketed or that they do? Or I'm just like. I think it's fascinating to think how these adjustments in mass clothing can kind of, I don't know, just make a difference in the way people move through the world. I was really interested to learn when I was reporting that, well, they're, like, obsessed with customer feedback. And there was this interesting anecdote where they have. Their call center in Japan is like, in house, and the operators are instructed to talk with people as long as they want to. You know, it's not about churn. It's not about getting them off the phone. They're like, they'll just chat with people all day long. And so they learned, like, from one Japanese housewife, for example, that a lot of women like to wear the puffer jackets inside the light ones to save on eating, and that they were wearing them while washing dishes and they wanted tighter elastics so that the sleeves wouldn't slip down, you know, and get all sudsy while they're. While they're scrubbing the dishes. But, like, I just find that kind of stuff really.

[A]

Interesting. That's fascinating because so much of what has made Uniqlo work globally has been in the. And they use this term lifewear, which you write quite a bit about, and I find.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

Impenetrable. Yes. Incredibly difficult to access as an American, is what I was going to say, but impenetrable is the cleaner way to say it. But. And the thing that I've reported on Uniqlo on and off for many years, but mostly through the lens of Mr. Yanay wanting to be Gap or to be his obsession with Gap or his buying of Helmut Lang and theory and that type of thing and understanding him. And also I think writing about Uniqlo has made me understand Japanese people better and how they operate. And the thing that was so frustrating to me, and you write a lot about this in the piece about their. The marketing in the US and. And how they've been challenged in the US in some ways, and not in others. I think the thing that has made them succeed is the technicality of the product. Like when they first launched in the us the fashion industry people got on board really quickly with the turtlenecks and all of that because A, you know, they wanted something to replace Gap in there. We like, we need the cheap cool thing or whatever. And B, Heat tech is amazing. Like I wear a black turtleneck sometimes. I wear it running in la. I wear it in. I was in New York last week, it was freezing. I wore one over almost under almost every single outfit I had on, so I didn't have to wear a giant coat. It's, it's a really just useful product. And so much of what they do, even when the cut isn't exactly right, even though the marketing that exists is weird and doesn't really, you have no way to connect with it. The product is just so much better than anything else out there. Or you know, you could argue that it is that that has the product is the marketing and that is, you're talking about these women wearing the coats inside. It's, that's what has made it successful. It's, it's really. I wonder what has, what drove him in that way? Like, was it that they have access to good textiles? Was it that, is.

[B]

It. Do.

[A]

You. Or do you think it's more of the Japanese way of doing things combined with this like lust to be a global.

[B]

Company? There's actually a really solid answer to that question which is they have this partnership and I mean they're, they're always vaunting this. It's a big part of their company story. But they have a partnership with a materials manufacturer called Toray. And so basically it's a two way street when they want to make something. If they're like, I don't know who came up with Hetep, but let's say they really wanted to make a thin kind of under layer that would keep people warm. They can go to Toray and be like, what kind of fabric do you have? Or what kind of fabric might you be able to create that would achieve these kind of like technical specifications? But on the other hand, Tori also comes to them and is like, hey, we're creating this new thing. How do you think you might be able to incorporate it into fashion? So it's interesting that yeah, I mean they have a huge advantage in that way in that they're not, they're not outsourcing like the technological side of the business. I also think the heat tech, I mean the tech the tech products are really popular. But like, this year, the thing I loved the most was the merino polo. Have you gotten into the merino polo.

[A]

Lauren? No, I'm looking it up right.

[B]

Now. Well, I've got it in navy blue and I've got it in hunter green. Wish I had it in black, but yeah, hunter green. It's nice.

[A]

Right? This is.

[B]

Great. Yeah, with like a army green kind of pant and you have a little monochrome whole thing. But anyway, I think, yeah, the merino polo is kind of my deep cut in the underappreciated cut on the Uniqlo collection this year. But yeah, so they do have this like real selling point, even if, you know, as you said, I don't know that. It's not that the marketing is weird necessarily, but it's like text heavy. It's a little bit hokey, like pedagogical. They're very into transmitting. Yeah. It's kind of like you're, it's like a fact sheet and it can be really interesting. I mean, it's also funny because I realized in reporting this case, you know, a Uniqlo press conference is the only place you're going to go and hear about. I can't even come up with the terminology. It was like amino, you know, I don't know what. But it's very science, which is unusual. It's a, it's a plus for some people. It's like a little off putting for others. But I think what's truly weird more than the marketing is probably the e commerce experience, which even though Uniqlo is, you know, now the third biggest clothing company, it only accounts for 15% of their sales. So it's the worst. It's, it's, it's tough. I mean, I had somebody, when I was reporting this piece, I was talking to somebody about it and they were like, I felt like I was signing up for a dating app. I mean, you have to give so much information. It's passwords, it's, you know, all kinds of stuff that people don't necessarily want to do just to buy some socks and underwear. But like. And actually your colleague Sarah Shapiro taught me the term rage.

[A]

Clicks. So.

[B]

Funny. Which was amazing. And if I understand correctly, refers to just like, you know, the number of times that people are kind of just frustratedly clicking when a button doesn't work or when things aren't going as fast as they want to. Apparently Uniqlo, according to Sarah, has a very high ratio of rage.

[A]

Clicks. That's very funny. I That's hilarious. It is. It is one of those websites where you go on. You're like, where is the product? And also the thing that is frustrating to me, and this happened years ago when Uniqlo you with Christophe La Mer first launched. It was like. And I lived in New York that was. I would buy, like, two pieces of La Mer collection a year and then just wear Uniqlo you. So I would get, like 15 things, and a lot of times I would order it online if I was out of town or whatever. They're online and offline, and they may have changed this now, but it was not two separate stores. So if you went in. So I went into the soho store once, and I was like, I have this stuff coming online. Like, it's being delivered here. I, like, sent it to the store for free delivery, but you have it here, and it's going to be five more days. Can I just get my stuff now? And it was stuff like that or like returning something online or offline or what have you. I mean, it's a lot of the things that all retailers were dealing with 20 or 15 years ago that they just haven't updated. And maybe there's something about it that's like, the lack of functionality makes people like. It's like that theory that Apple has of, like, you. You need to make it a little tension for people to, like, make it a little hard to get stuff. I don't know if that's what we're doing.

[B]

Here. I don't know if that is necessarily the conscious, you know, the. The kind of conscious theory of their website. But what is interesting, you know, we were talking about lifewear, which is this kind of. This obscure, obscure slogan that is very, very important in the Uniqlo universe. I mean, they are very sincere about it and take it very seriously. The more questions I asked about it, the less I actually understood it. But it's supposed to be. The idea is that they think that they can do good in the world by making functional and appealing clothing available to almost everyone. That's the goal. I was like, why? Why does a clothing company need to do good in the world? Why can't you just sell sweaters? Just to be devil's advocate and. But the answer was something like, because lifewear, I mean, it's under it. I didn't really manage to understand how exactly this works. But in any case, I had this fascinating conversation with a professor of. He's a translator of Japanese literature, and he was hired by Uniqlo to work on the Lifewear slogan. And he told me that. And this was with Mr. Yanai's both ascent and I think maybe explicit instruction. But anyway, like, they tried to make it. Yeah, like a little tricky. I think they wanted people. He told me that they wanted people to stop and think about what it meant, which I just thought. I mean, you know, I don't know, like, I don't know if Zara or H and M, if you're going to get an esteemed translator of medieval Japanese literature working on the slogan. There's something that is like incredibly earnest and painstaking about this company in ways that I think sets it apart in ways that are.

[A]

Interesting. Yeah. And I think the fact that it's not. It is function based and less trend based in the same way Gap came out in the 80s. That it. Because H and M and Zara both. Zara has gone more upmarket in the last few years. And that's an interesting story in and of itself, but the reality of the matter is it's very focused on trend. Like, I haven't been in an H and M and I think also, you know, it's age as well, but I haven't been in an H and m in probably 10 years. And Zara, I was never a Zara person. It just didn't. I like missed the boat because by the time Zara was big in the US I was already like saving up for designer stuff. So I just sort of did not engage. But, But Uniqlo makes you feel like if you don't engage with Uniqlo, you're sort of a sucker. Like, you should buy the best thing that they make because it is a decent thing. So even if you're focused on quality, they. There's, there's like a real value prop there. I'm curious what you feel like the perception of Uniqlo is in Europe and the UN versus the United States, essentially as they started to globalize. Like, what do you think Europeans see Uniqlo for and what do you think Americans use Uniqlo.

[B]

For? I'm not sure there's such a great, you know, gap in perception between the two. I mean, I haven't, I haven't really seen or heard anything that makes me think Europeans regard it differently than Americans. You know, I guess the kind of like store setup is a little bit different in that in Europe they've really focused on this strategy of opening like big, attractive stores in kind of central locations. So like, you have a store at Opera in Paris and I know in the. Okay, so in The US Their first foray into the US Was a huge flop. They started their first store was like at a Mall in Edison, N.J. and American consumers were just flummoxed by this Japanese brand with the like off sizing and you know, they hadn't ever seen any advertising. And basically in, in both, I think the, the US was like the really high stakes gamble that didn't work out but, but in Europe as well, they had to pull out and kind of regroup and now they're doing it differently. But I think in both markets, I mean as far as I can see, people see Uniqlo as, yeah, kind of a good like base to mix in with other things. I mean Uniqlo, it's very interesting. The executives themselves are like, we can't, we don't really think people, they don't envision people wearing Uniqlo head to toe. It's always meant as, you know, again this idea of like the universal donor that it's kind of going to be able to go with everything and you know, like one of their best selling products is their short sleeved crew neck T shirt which I don't really like. I think it's a little too thick for.

[A]

My. I.

[B]

Agree. But it's a cult product and I keep finding, you know, now that Uniqlo is like well established in my algorithm, you know, I keep getting all these things that are like the artist that has 50 black, black T shirts from Uniqlo. And I mean that's a real, it's a real thing that people also use it as kind of a, you know, security blanket. Like they have this one item that they wear really frequently and then they mix other things in and out. So yeah, I think, I think it's seen similarly both in Europe and in the US and the company is making a really big push into the US so I think they're trying to open I think 200 stores maybe by 2027. So I think Americans will be seeing more of.

[A]

Uniqlo. I'm done with subscriptions, streaming, fitness, razors.

[B]

Vitamins. I've got subscriptions for everything in my life. They lock you in and half.

[A]

The time I can't figure out how to.

[B]

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[A]

[e-mail] so the thing that I and this idea they want to be the biggest apparel retailer in the world. I see it through the lens of Amazon and Old Navy and everything available in the U.S. the online doesn't really work obviously. Like it's not I'm trying to look for Uniqlo U product and there's tons of it available but you have to search it. There's no like if you do the dropdown on women's there's not even a Uniqlo circle with their creative director. There's not an a note of how to get Uniqlo C. There's, there's a J.W. anderson thing, a cause thing but there's no oh I see it must be under special collaborations or something. But anyway the point being it's not easy to shop online. The, the price value equation thing like that is important Value and quality is important to some consumers. What do you think as like when people are just looking for it feels like nothing can be Amazon. Nothing can beat these super cheap places where people are just like looking you need a T shirt. Do you think that we've sort of moved past that needing because everybody has so much stuff if they're gonna buy new stuff they want it to have like something special. And do you think that that will be what makes Uniqlo be able to keep growing here or do you think they're going to be challenged by the like Walmart, Amazon, Target every like everybody makes this thing that they make. They may make it slightly better but not everyone's going to care about.

[B]

That. Well what's kind of interesting is in Japan Uniqlo is the Walmart Amazon option. You know it's the socks and underwear like the prices are even cheaper than they are elsewhere. And there's even a, you know I learned there's a word or a phrase called it's unibare and it refers to the, the feeling. Let's see it's a Japanese word for the moment when somebody realizes you're wearing Uniqlo and not a more expensive brand. So traditionally, like, there was this feeling of like, not. I mean, I think it's kind of. It's. It's like a jesting kind of phrase. But, you know, Uniqlo in Japan was not seen as something upscale. And a lot of the early stores were these kind of like roadside emporiums where you would just like drive in, park in a big parking lot and run in and get your big pack of underwear or whatever. So, yeah, the positioning is a little bit different in the US and what's interesting is, like, initially, you know, they were looking so fast. Retailing also owns theory. It owns J Brand, it owns Comptoir de Cotonnier in France, and I think Princess Tam Tam as well. But when they were making their first big push into the U.S. they kind of thought that their way in was going to be to buy a US brand that was already well established. I mean, Mr. Yanai, as he's called, it was funny. I love that you picked up on that. He's like, you know, in the way of a Mrs. Prada or whatever, always referred to that way within the company. But he had this, like, personal attachment to American culture, you know, from these east coast preppy staples that became really big in post war Japan. I think you had David Marks on the show, right, Talking about his new book, Ametora Different. But Amatora is just a fantastic book.

[A]

That. So.

[B]

Good. So lucky to discover reporting this. And so. And I really wanted to make it big in the US Both for sentimental reasons and obviously for. For business ones. And so he made a big play for Gap. He even wanted to buy J. Crew at one point. And at the time, like, people were like, well, why are you trying to do this? And he said very flatly, it's not realistic for us to establish hundreds or thousands of stores just from the ground up. Like, we want to buy a big chain business. What's interesting is that never came to fruition. And now they're trying to do exactly what they said. You know, they never. What. What they said would be foolhardy to try to do in these markets that already have, like, the homegrown, you know, that have Gap, that have.

[A]

J.

[B]

Crew. So I think it's interesting. I mean, obviously it's working. Their revenues have been up, their profits have been up, and particularly in the North American market, which they're now focusing on. I don't know. I'm very. I'm like, I'm interested to see what.

[A]

Happens. Me too. And I can confirm from my own reporting that the J. Crew thing was for real and that the price was not right for. For J. Cruise investors. And it would have been really interesting if that had happened the other. So I am just so interested in his interest in America and also in his interest in shiny things. So, like, he bought theory that's over, I think almost close to $2 billion a year in sales. I think it's an interesting business for them to own and has been successful. The other things he's acquired, Comptoir des Caten. I'm sure I'm saying that extremely poorly, but that I have no idea. But obviously Helmet Lang has been a massive failure for them and they refuse to sell it. They've. I reported before that, like, I think they've talked to lvmh. LVMH wasn't interested, but they just absolutely refuse to sell it. And I think that is like a little bit of a cultural thing as well. Just writing a lot about, like, Japanese owners of businesses and things. But I think one of the interesting things that he did was all of these collaborations and working with these designers and really engaging them and employing them on a big level, like they did. I have a Uniqlo by Alexander Wang dress from probably 15 years ago that's still so great. But they did. They were early to the collaboration game, but then he started engaging these designers in, like, a much deeper way. Obviously, the JW Anderson Uniqlo thing is constant. And that's a fourth job for Jonathan Anderson. He has a whole team that works on that. But then there's also the relationships with Christophe Lemaire and Claire Waite Keller and Christophe Lemaire, they are investors in his personal brand. I was told the investment has actually been reduced. But he works there. And Sarah, his partner, they do a lot of work. They do a lot of research and development, and a lot of what they do ends up in the main line. But then they also hired Claire to kind of run the main business. And what I've heard. I'm curious what in your. I thought your reporting on her was interesting, but what I've heard is that she's really good presenting to executives and to that team in particular. So she has been able to sort of make headway there where a lot of creative people wouldn't be able to. She's like a creative executive type. But I'm curious from your perspective, like, what do you think? Why do you think he's so interested in these people? And he also has very good taste, like in the people that he collaborates with. And what do you think it brings to the Uniqlo sort of aura and brand.

[B]

Overall? Yeah, I mean, I think it is like a, you know, it's an attractive proposition for both sides. I mean, obviously for Uniqlo, by hiring these designers, they bring a touch of glamour, they bring a touch of, you know, they elevate the brand. I mean, when you ask like, well, you have Amazon, you have Walmart, what's the difference? But if you can get something that's like Amazon, Walmart, ish priced, if not exactly. But it's designed by someone who also made Meghan Markle's wedding dress. I mean, you know, which one, which one are you going to pick? I think for the designers. I mean, when I talked to Claire Wakeheller, she seemed to be just, you know, like a kid in a sandbox with this job. I mean, I was really surprised. Maybe not necessarily. I mean, I think it's just, I think it's kind of thrilling when you've been in a very rarefied environment maybe to be making clothes that you see people wearing. You're out on the street again. It's going back to that sociological thing. I mean, you can actually like, kind of, you know, I don't think this in the kind of like high flown, idealistic way that the life where, you know, people do like, where you are changing the world in some, you know, in, in some small grained way. And I think for a designer, if I were a designer, I would find that gratifying and exhilarating. I mean, she seemed, what I want to say is she seemed a little bit exhilarated in a way that she'd spent so much of her career, you know, making clothes that in large part hang in closets. And now she's kind of like dressing the masses. I mean, I don't know, maybe some people would see that as a step down, I don't think. She seemed just like very excited about that and excited about the kind of, I would say, like intellectual and professional challenges that it presents too. I mean, you have to think about people with different bodies. You have to think about people with different, you know, cultural traditions and expectations. You have to think about people who are living in all kinds of different weather, different generations, different genders. She said that she was really brought in to kind of like zhuzh up the women's offering. Yanai came out of menswear. She was like, menswear, you have a really different mentality. Like somebody goes in for an item, just a man's like, gotta buy a belt, whatever. Whereas a woman wants to go in and buy an outfit, she wants to buy a mood. She wants to buy, like, something a little bit different. So Claire Wakeller was brought in to, yeah, kind of like fashion. Ify the. The women's offering a little bit. And I think what happened is that she liked it, they liked what she was doing, and then they just kind of working started, you know, the relationship deepen. But I get the feeling that for the designers, there's a lot of potential there, like, if their relationship goes right. I mean, Uniqlo has a lot of resources. Claire White Keller was also very, very keen to emphasize to me that in a moment where, you know, in European high fashion, women have kind of gone extinct, she was like, I'm a female designer, and I'm at the head creatively, of the third biggest fashion company in the world. I mean, it's. It's also like, you know, you can see it as a demotion, but you can also see it as a promotion.

[A]

Certainly. For sure. And also the reality of the luxury industry, which you're experiencing every day living amidst all of these companies, is that it's not how people shop anymore. And even really wealthy people, like, it's just changed so much. And so to be somewhere that people are still engaging with on, like, a really deep level, even if they don't realize it's that deep because they can't penetrate lifewear. But it's a fascinating prospect and a great, like, next step in a career, for.

[B]

Sure. I mean, if I were a designer, I wouldn't want people to wear my clothes. Wouldn't you? I want people to read what? I want people to read my.

[A]

Writing. Well, you know, it's interesting because I have always worked at places where it's. That's limited. So I've never had the, like, every single person reading it type thing. Every single person in a certain group of people reading it. Yes. But I don't know, it's a. That's an.

[B]

Interesting. It's not a perfect analogy, but anyway, I got. I got a real sense. Yeah, there was. I felt a real energy coming from her. And I think also, like, just getting to go work in a different. A totally different environment, learn different philosophies, different work habits, traveling to totally different places. I mean, it's just. It's like. It's a cool. It's a pretty cool thing to do if you have the.

[A]

Opportunity. Yeah, for sure. Lauren, it was so fun to chat with you about Uniqlo when Does your next piece come out? Do you know? Or is it soon? Or are you in the middle of writing.

[B]

It? My next piece is, like, still. It's cooking. I haven't even started writing it yet. I will. I will warn you, it has nothing to do with.

[A]

Fashion. That's.

[B]

Okay. Only the most tangential relationship. But, yeah, it'll be a little.

[A]

While. I. I read anything that you write. Also. Subscribe to Lauren Substack. What is. What is. Remind me of the.

[B]

Name. It's called. It's called Letra Recommend. And this is. It's kind of my repository for just all the cool little things that slip through the cracks of my regular correspondence. So it's on substack. It's called Lettres Recommende, which is like the letter that you have to send to get anything done in France. It's like the serious.

[A]

Letter. The serious letter. Well, I love it. It's a very. It's a great letter. Serious. When it's serious and when it's not.

[B]

Serious. Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

Again. Happy holidays. You.

[B]

Too. And I'm so glad I always listen. So I'm so glad I got to join you this week. Thanks for having.

[A]

Me. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador. And Doug. Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty, Liberty. Liberty. Liberty Savings. Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates. Excludes.