GQ’s Next Editor & A Vanity Fair Temp Check

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fashion People

Episode: GQ’s Next Editor & A Vanity Fair Temp Check
Host: Lauren Sherman (Puck)
Guests: Jessica Testa & Michael M. Grynbaum (NYT reporters)
Date: January 16, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into pivotal transitions at Condé Nast, including the impending vacancy at GQ following Will Welch’s departure, recent changes at Vanity Fair, and reflections on the evolving dynamics inside the storied media company. Hosts and guests weigh in on generational change, editorial vision, and the big personalities (and HR names!) shaping the future of iconic glossy magazines.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breakfast, Group Chats, and Instagram Habits

• The trio jokingly compares breakfast routines and local New York coffee shop finds, underlining their “group chat” rapport now brought on-air.
  • [05:22] Jessica Testa: “Whenever there’s Conde news, we get on a little group text and talk about it. So we’re just bringing the group text to the people.”
• Lauren reveals she follows over 7,000 accounts on Instagram (mostly restaurants and local news).

---

2. GQ Editor-in-Chief Departure: Will Welch Moves On

• Will Welch is leaving GQ after over two decades, sparking speculation about succession and broader change at Condé Nast.
• [12:06] Michael Grynbaum: “Vanity Fair, Vogue, and GQ [are] changing editors within four or five months—this is a huge generational and cultural sea change.”
• Jessica notes it's significant because Will was in contention for Anna Wintour’s roles and was considered a stabilizing force.
  • [13:23] Jessica: “He could come back easily. But…he’s been such a sort of stable and consistent force at a company that hasn’t had many of them.”

---

3. Will Welch’s GQ Legacy

• Modernized a previously “stale” GQ.
• Focused on fashion-forward content, events (like the Super Bowl Fashion Show), and streetwear influences.
  • [14:31] Michael Grynbaum: “He did such a smart job of kind of modernizing GQ, which had become kind of a bit stale.”
• Shifted away from general interest to “fashion enthusiasm”—making GQ a niche yet highly desirable workplace.

---

4. Who Should Succeed Will Welch?

• Top candidates discussed:
  • Adam Baidawi (Will’s deputy): Well-liked, chic, but less known outside the company.
  • Sam Hein: Internal candidate but lacks management experience.
  • Willa Bennett: Former GQ, now at Cosmo. “How cool would it be to have a girl at GQ?” (Jessica, [19:11])
  • Chris Black: Podcast host, consultant (J.Crew), and “man-about-town” with deep currency among men’s style and culture circles.
    • [22:12] Jessica: "There's the name I was hearing all over LA—Chris Black."

- Gender Dynamics:

• Choosing a woman as GQ’s EIC would be a statement, but would it alienate GQ’s traditional advertisers?
  • [20:30] Michael Grynbaum: “GQ still does have this niche as one of the few places... that feels comfortable and approachable to straight, non-fashion guys.”

- The “Dark Horse”:

• The group agrees Chris Black represents a vision everyone can picture, which is a powerful argument for his candidacy.
  • [39:28] Lauren: “He’s the only one where I could see what his GQ would look like...that’s exciting.”
  • [37:12] Michael (joking): "Chris Black as the Uniter we've all been waiting for."

---

5. Trends in Magazine Editorships Today

• Compare “visionary” vs. “crowd-pleasing” editors.
  • [40:42] Jessica Testa: “The publications that are more fun to read are the ones that are not so focused on serving their audience and are more about…one creative brain.”

---

6. Vanity Fair: Mark Guiducci’s First Months

• Big first win: Suzy Wiles / Trump White House story—echoing Tina Brown and Graydon Carter eras.

  • [42:55] Michael Grynbaum: “The Susie Wiles, Trump White House piece was a tremendous victory on every level.”

• Managed the Olivia Nuzzi controversy but rebounded.

• Fashion cover choices and mixes are notably fresher and more irreverent—against longstanding magazine “full-look” pressures.

  • [47:20] Jessica Testa: “Mixing brands…totally refreshing…against this terrible practice of full look mandate from the brands.”

• Upcoming test: Vanity Fair’s Oscars party vs. W Magazine’s (Sarah Moonves) intimate, influential events.

---

7. Conde Nast Culture: Is It a Better Place to Work Now?

• Positive stories about the business aren’t being told well enough by corporate.

  • [57:10] Michael Grynbaum: “I think that Conde Nast has a positive story to tell that they’re not telling.”

• Millennial leadership is scrappy, creative, and underdog spirited—but the company’s heritage luxury ethos may hinder full reinvention.

  • [57:42] Jessica: “There’s maybe never been a more fun time to be a magazine editor there…if they truly embraced this underdog dynamic…”

• Lauren offers first-hand experience: legacy bureaucracy can crush creativity, but new leadership seems more fun and promising.

---

8. Vanity Fair, IP, and Industry Mishaps

• Recent loss of the Gourmet trademark: a group of journalists took it over after Conde Nast let it lapse.
  • [63:41] Jessica Testa: “Five journalists…appl[ied] for the trademark that Conde had let lapse.”
  • [64:59] Michael Grynbaum: “Just the idea that Conde’s IP department would not realize that Gourmet was in a lapse…speaks to…”

---

9. Random, Wonderful Industry Tidbits

- “Stan Duncan, Thank You” Phenomenon

Why are all Condé Nast editors thanking their HR chief on Instagram?

• [66:09] Lauren: "I just think it’s funny…our head of people, Amy—I’m not thanking her in my Instagram post about anything."
• [66:36] Michael: “He’s a Line Sheet character!”

- Zoron at the Met Gala?

Speculation on whether New York’s new mayor will attend.

• [67:48] Michael: “I think he might be too cautious to go this year, but I think eventually he will show up.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[Will Welch] was such a sort of stable and consistent force at a company that hasn’t had many of them in recent years.” — Jessica Testa [13:23]
• “The idea of Chris Black as the Uniter we’ve all been waiting for.” — Michael Grynbaum [37:12]
• “If anybody knows who is actually gonna get this job, please message all of us at the same time.” — Lauren Sherman [41:21]
• “Conde Nast has a positive story to tell that they’re not telling.” — Michael Grynbaum [57:10]
• “There’s maybe never been a more fun time to be a magazine editor there…if they truly embraced this underdog dynamic…” — Jessica Testa [57:42]

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|-------|-----------| | Local blogs, Instagram habits | [06:00]-[10:29] | | Will Welch’s GQ Exit | [11:00]-[17:00] | | GQ Succession: Candidates | [19:11]-[29:02] | | Editorial Leadership Trends | [40:41]-[41:21] | | Vanity Fair Temp Check (Mark Guiducci) | [42:55]-[51:11] | | Conde Nast Culture | [57:10]-[62:02] | | Gourmet Trademark Snafu | [63:41]-[65:38] | | The Stan Duncan “Thank You” Question | [66:09]-[66:50] | | The Met Gala & NY’s New Mayor | [67:13]-[71:10] |

---

Tone & Language

The dialogue is witty, insidery, and conversational—often self-aware about the industry’s quirks, with an affectionate but critical approach to Condé Nast’s woes and triumphs.

---

Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode is a must-listen if you want to understand the current, rumbling turf shifts inside fashion and media’s most legendary publisher. From a dishy, smart breakdown of who could and should run GQ next—right down to which local blogs matter on Substack, and who (and why!) the HR guy is suddenly a meme-worthy fixture—this podcast serves up all the industry gossip, insight, and analysis you’d hope for from three of the field’s sharpest observers.

Transcript

[Lauren Sherman]

Mid January is when motivation starts to dip and the winter weather really settles in. Which makes now the perfect moment for a style pick me up. Macy's has everything needed to refresh a winter wardrobe and bring back that feel. Unstoppable energy. Their winter fashion lineup covers every mood and silhouette. Faux fur coats for a touch of glam, animal prints for a bold moment. Polished blazers and warm puffer jackets that don't sacrifice style. Even Even small additions can transform an outfit, like adding a blue suede Steve Madden boot or a Madden Girl slingback kitten heel with a bow, of course, for color and personality. For anyone wanting something fresh in the denim department, the Avec Le Fille bow Detail High Rise jeans add instant flair without extra effort. And updating accessories can make a major impact, too. Options like the Suede Coach Tabby or the Arezzo Rivera leather bag elevate any winter look. Macy's makes it easy to step into the season feeling confident, warm, and ready for whatever 2026 brings.

[Jessica Testa]

Just got a new puppy or kitten?

[Lauren Sherman]

Congrats.

[Michael Grinbaum]

But also, yikes.

[Jessica Testa]

Between crates, beds, toys, treats and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune. Which is where Lemonade Pet Insurance comes in.

[Lauren Sherman]

It helps cover vet costs so you.

[Jessica Testa]

Can focus on what's best for your new pet.

[Lauren Sherman]

The coverage is customizable, so sign up is quick and easy, and your claims.

[Jessica Testa]

Are handled in as little as three seconds. Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a'llemonade.com pet your future self will thank you.

[Lauren Sherman]

Your pet won't.

[Jessica Testa]

They don't know what insurance is.

[Lauren Sherman]

Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show are New York Times reporters Jessica Testa and Michael Green Grinbaum. They're here to chat about the state of Conde Nast, who will replace Will Welch at gq. How is Marco Ducci doing at Vanity Fair? Why do we all know the name of the HR guy? And so much more. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of fashion people get a discount. Just go to Puck News fashionpeople to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday, everyone. It's been a big week over here at Line Sheet. Saks Global filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Wednesday morning. Now we are sorting out exactly what that means for the fashion industry. Lots of differing opinions. I'm trying to get them all in the email and also on this podcast. If you enjoyed my conversation with Puck's Bill Cohan last week, be sure to check out Friday's Line Sheet where you will find our post filing chat. So we go through what could happen, what should happen. It's. It's a really nice, fun conversation. And check out Bill's email dry Powder on Sunday, where he's gonna cover more of of what he thinks about the whole sex situation. In other news, there was a report in an Italian newspaper indicating that Giambattista Valli. It's called Il Folio Foglio. I don't know. I. You either think that the fact that I can't pronounce anything is cute or you think it's terrible, but whatever, I live my truth. Anyway, Giambattista Valli is in big trouble. And so I did some of my own investigation into this, and we ran a piece on Thursday about it. It's really interesting. He's a sort of kind of comes from the old world. He's a dressmaker, but he's Gen X. And he was a creative director at Moncler for a Montclair collection. So it's kind of an interesting character and it was illuminating to report on it. I feel like we'll have another update soon. Who knows if that company is gonna stay in business? But anyway, the men's show shows are getting started, and I will be in Paris late next week for the tail end of that. Plus couture, where Giambattista Valli is supposed to show on January 26. Who knows if that will happen? It's a very short trip last minute, but I do hope to see you. And until then, let's get going with Jess and Michael. Jessica Testa and Michael Grimbaum. Welcome to Fashion People.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Thanks for having us.

[Jessica Testa]

Thank you.

[Lauren Sherman]

Welcome back.

[Jessica Testa]

We love being on Fashion People, and we're doing it together. We've never done this before, and this is.

[Michael Grinbaum]

We're in a soundproof room in the New York Times building. So it's a team exercise.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I'm excited for this experiment. We've never had someone in the same. The two people in the same room before. I don't think. I mean, I think it's.

[Jessica Testa]

It's appropriate because we have the three of us. Sometimes, whenever there's Conde news, we get on a little group text and talk about it. So we're just bringing the group text.

[Lauren Sherman]

To the people we do. I'm very excited. Okay, so to start, it is Friday, so I have to ask you about breakfast. What'd you have?

[Jessica Testa]

I had some cereal with yogurt and banana and blueberries.

[Lauren Sherman]

What about you? I had.

[Michael Grinbaum]

For the New Yorkers listening, there's this cool new coffee shop on my. On East first street in the Villa East Village called Moon Coffee. It opened like a month ago. It's really good. They're like coffee nerds. I had, like, a cold brew, and then they have these little sweet potato kind of biscuits that they heat up for you, and it, like, really hits the spot.

[Lauren Sherman]

So.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Highly recommend.

[Lauren Sherman]

Can I just say, I know about that because of. Is it EV Grieve?

[Michael Grinbaum]

Yes, it was on EV Grieve, which.

[Lauren Sherman]

I started subscribing to after Michael. You were on How Long Gone? Because, you know, I'm a big local news junkie, and I believe that the big opportunity making money in journalism is figuring out local news. And so I follow lots of weird local news publications. But Ev grief has been around for, like, 20 years. Right.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I feel like it's the OG hyperlocal blog. And it's funny. I wonder if that guy should try it out on Substack and just start getting subscription revenue.

[Lauren Sherman]

He's on Substack. That's what I get.

[Jessica Testa]

Yeah. I just started following a Boreham Hill where I live in Brooklyn, a Boreham Hill substack that I think I discovered through Emily Sundberg's Feed Me.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, interesting. There's also a really good one that's like the Onion of Marin county that I can't remember the name, but I followed on Instagram.

[Jessica Testa]

I follow the one that you like. The East LA one.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, yeah, the east side Rag. He's great. Like, that's legit. I like him. He's a sweet guy and getting little scoops. I feel like Emily Sunberg should hire him to do her east west coast thing. And then there's also a really great paper on Nantucket that I learned about this year. That's like, some of the best reporting, local reporting. When. When Ralph Lauren was getting looted on Nantucket this summer, I was following very closely. It's great.

[Jessica Testa]

I don't know if you've ever Talked about this on your podcast, but you follow more people on Instagram than like, I think you follow the max amount of people. Is this. Is this like a hot me for you?

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay, so I don't know how this happened, but yes, right now I've reduced. During the holidays, I had a week off and I spent most of that time unfollowing people on Instagram. When I joined Instagram, I joined pretty early because my husband was a tech reporter for a long time. And so I was on all these platforms very early because he'd be like, just get on this platform or whatever. I don't know. I just started following and I follow. We traveled. We travel a lot still. And I would follow restaurants in local places. Often I find restaurants in places that. Restaurants I'm following in places that I've never been to. And I would follow a lot of brands and a lot of shops and things, like anything to do with travel. And it just got totally out of control. Where right now, let's look and to see. Because I really. I truly spent hours over the break and it's very hard to unfollow people. Right now I'm only following 7251. 7251 people. So I have some, but every six months or so I cull like 500 people. And then suddenly I'm being denied the ability to follow someone. Wow, it's. It's strange. How many people do you all follow?

[Jessica Testa]

Couldn't tell you. But it. I do think my ratio is more follows to followers. Yeah, I would guess because I also do the same thing you do, and I will, like, sort of aggressively follow just restaurants that I, like, want to go to and. Oh, actually, no, my ratio is. Is a normal person's ratio. But, um, yeah, I think it's a great tool for discovering local.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think if.

[Michael Grinbaum]

If I followed too many accounts, it would, like, dilute my feed and then I'd start getting stuff that I'd be like, oh, that's from a vacation I planned five years ago. This.

[Lauren Sherman]

That happens to me a lot, especially if you're in a different time zone. So when I go to Europe, suddenly all this weird stuff that I follow in, like, Ireland, where I've never been, pops up. But I am just interested in how. I don't know, I can't stop myself. Like, I followed a bar in Manchester a couple of weeks ago and was like, I really shouldn't do this. And it came up a few times and I don't. I've never been to Manchester, and I can't help myself. Eventually I'll start to feel like it doesn't make sense.

[Michael Grinbaum]

But for now, I'm also a believer that Instagram is passively listening to all of our conversations. And so I expect when I log on after this recording, that Nantucket blog you mentioned is going to get served to me, even though I haven't googled it or anything. Like, it's clearly eavesdropping all the time.

[Lauren Sherman]

1,000%. That's definitely true. Once I. I was talking about a Sam Marzocco or whatever it's called, espresso machine, $25,000 and got an advertisement for it afterwards. Anyway, we're here to talk about the publishing company that Instagram killed, Conde Nest. I wanted to have you both on because last week there was some big news and there's been just a lot of stuff going on. Will Welch, the editor in chief, global editorial director of gq, announced that he was leaving the magazine to go work for Pharrell in a yet to be explained job for kind of his holding company that in Paris that Penny tho, the super manager, is running. Jess, you broke this news. You were just so fast. It was amazing. What do you all. And so there's a lot going on. So the Will thing is a big deal, but then there's all this other stuff happening and Conde Nast is just like back in the conversation again. Let's start. Michael, what did you want to say?

[Michael Grinbaum]

No, I was. And Jess, you should. You. I mean, Jess broke the story and is the expert on it, but I'll just say we now have arguably, well, not the New Yorker, but the three biggest, I would say most important non New Yorker titles. Vanity Fair, Vogue and gq. Changing editors in the span of what, like four or five months here. I mean, that is a huge generational and cultural sea change at the company.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And so. So what do you all think about that? Look, like the Vogue thing had to happen, the Vanity Fair thing had to happen, the GQ thing. I don't think anybody expected sometimes I would get the sense, like, what is Will going to do? Like, he's kind of done it. I don't see how you evolve what he's done into something else. And the problem with a lot of the last generation editors is they, they stayed around, they stuck around for too long. But it doesn't feel like his GQ is really evolving much other than doing more and more events, which makes sense. He does this super bowl fashion show thing now.

[Michael Grinbaum]

He's.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think this is going to be the third year that they've done that or the second year. But what did you all, Jess, when you found out about this, like, what did you think?

[Jessica Testa]

I think there is a very big question hovering above Conde Nast right now, which is who will take the jobs that Anna Wintour currently has, the two jobs she has when she relinquishes those titles, the same way that she relinquished editor of American Vogue last year. And I think, as you have written in line sheet, Will was very much in the conversation for that bigger job. So it wasn't surprising to me on some levels because I think he's been there for over two decades and he's been at gq and I think or around two decades and that's a long time to be at a job. And I think anytime somebody changes jobs in media, we shouldn't be super shocked. But the surprising part was that I thought that he was a really leading candidate for those bigger and or winter jobs. And honestly, he still is. I mean, he could come back. He could come back easily. But that's where I was surprised. He has been such a sort of stable and consistent force at a company that hasn't had many of them in recent years.

[Michael Grinbaum]

And I think he did such a smart job of kind of modernizing gq, which had become kind of a bit stale. And it felt like from an earlier kind of era of how of men's fashion, how men sort of think about themselves. And I felt like, I mean, events were a big part of it, but it felt like, you know, there were really smart hires like Sam Hein and Willow, you know, Willow Bennett was there, Rachel Tashtein was there. And I felt like it got back into kind of a fashion forward style kind of vernacular. And they embraced streetwear and they, you know, he like kind of made it relevant, which, you know, in these days is very difficult for Kanye Mass magazine to be. So I have to think they feel it's a loss like for him to walk out the door.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh yeah.

[Jessica Testa]

And I'll say to your point about you didn't feel like GQ was changing. I think in small ways it was. I noticed for the men of the year package, those cover stories were done in a different way. They were like long form video interviews, which GQ hadn't done before. Most of its videos tend to be those sort of short form, like gamified, you know, what's in your bag or what are your essentials or like show me your watch collection things. And for them to have like the stars of that issue. Sit down with GQ journalists, like actual journalists. We're not talking about sort of influencer entertainer types like Sean Evans from Hot Ones or Emilia from.

[Lauren Sherman]

Who is a great interviewer. Let's just be honest. So good. But yes, not from Chicken Shop Date or whatever. Yeah, it was like Zach and Kat.

[Jessica Testa]

Kat Stoffel and Sam did some of them too. So they felt more journalistic. And I thought that that was an interesting direction for them to go in. It wasn't like the most earth shattering moving things forward to your point, but it was. He was still doing new things there.

[Lauren Sherman]

I thought, yeah, look, my thing about Will, since he got that job and I've been covering it since. Since he was there, essentially when he got the. There was GQ Style Quarterly and I interviewed him and. And I talked to Jim Nelson, his predecessor, and Jim was basically like, well, he's going to get my job and this is the sort of way we prep him for it. But I thought that. I agree that Will did the smart thing and said, we're not going to try to win Pulitzer Prizes. Let Esquire do that. We're going to focus on fashion enthusiasm and be a niche magazine because you can't really be a general interest style magazine anymore. The Internet is there for that. And so he dug deep. And I remember talking to advertisers who were more traditional who would say things like, you know, we're not trying to pursue rappers, which you can take what you think that means. But, like, there were definitely some advertisers who were not into it because he was very focused on, like the middle of pop culture and real, like, what street fashion was. And in the end, I think they all came around and supported him. And I always say, like, that in Town and country, to me are the only. And I don't count the New Yorker in any of this, but are the only sort of glossy magazines where I could see people really wanting to work there. And Michael, you mentioned Rachel and Nikki Okanaki and all these people who went through that brand and many of them stayed for a long time. And I think people really wanted to work there. And so it was to me, the model of what all the other big magazines should be. And I am sure that they are gutted that he left. And also, you know, the idea that he would become the chief content officer someday. And I agree with you, Jess, I think there's a huge chance he will if he wanted to go back. But that was something that, like Conde, people were planting with me, like, they want that to happen because he's. He's a great leader. He's likable, he's inspiring. He has a point of view, and he. And I think more than any of the other editors who are under Wintour's purview, she gave him the space to do what he wanted to do. I think the question is, where does it go from now? And who is the right person to take it to the next step? So we can go through a list of nominees, but I'm curious who you all think, because I have my pick.

[Jessica Testa]

Oh, I'm sure you. I think I know who your pick is. But I think two people I messaged, like, as soon as this happened were Willa Bennett and Sam Hein. I think if you go to fashion shows, it felt very much like Will and Sam are always together. It felt like, from the outside at least, that Will was sort of, like, grooming Sam for a bigger position at gq. And then I texted Willa because she used to be a GQ and she now runs Cosmo, so she has the experience of being at the top of a publication. And as Mike and I talked about sort of in the aftermath of this, like, how cool would it be to have someone like her, like, a girl at gq, like, leading gq? Like, she's. She's cool. She's like, an exciting choice. Is she the kind of person that, like, men's fashion advertisers would line up behind? Like, I think there's an argument for, yeah, she could totally pull that off. But it is a question. Just as with Sam, I think the question is, like, he's never sort of led a publication, so does he have the experience to do that? But those were the two people who came to mind immediately, for me only because I really think Conde is committed to. At least from the last two appointments, we saw Picky elevating people in house or who have at least been to the title.

[Michael Grinbaum]

So I thought initially, and we did talk about this, Like, I thought just almost the novelty of picking a woman to run GQ would be, like, a brilliant move. I was thinking about the amount of coverage that would get an attention. Like, I was thinking, like, the. The profile would be, she knows what men want. Like, you can just write the headline right there. And also, some of the more exciting menswear designers right now are women, like Grace Wells Bonner, going into Hermes. So I did put this, however, to another person who asked to remain nameless, but a smart thinker about these things, and they made a very smart counter Argument, which was that GQ still does have this niche as one of the few places kind of in the fashion media world that still feels comfortable and approachable to straight, non fashion guys, as well as its kind of fashion audience. And like, maybe there is a certain bro. Ishness about gq. And I'm not saying that like, that couldn't be retained under a female editor, but maybe there is kind of a, you know, market and a certain, like an aspect to GQ that's unique that no other magazine has. And like, is there a question like that? And then I think the advertisers would be the other thing, like, are there too many? I mean, Lauren, you were mentioning there are some, like, very traditional old line kind of men's fashion, you know, people who are advertising there. Would it not work? I'm kind of like on the fence. I mean, I still think it'd be really cool, but I do think there's good arguments on either side.

[Jessica Testa]

And then there's the name I was hearing all over la, which you'll. You, you can, you should pitch us your argument for him, which is Chris Black.

[Lauren Sherman]

My pick is Chris Black. But let's talk about Adam, the deputy guy first. And I will explain my. So here is the thing about this job. I think both Sam Hein and Willa Bennett are in the running if, if they wish to be. I think the Willa thing. Exactly. When it, when I first, when it first happened, I thought, oh, yeah, Willa's gonna go for this and she's gonna be like a big, a big part of this. But then I think that it's true that I don't know, I don't know how it was so clear what they needed from the Vogue job. It was so clear what they needed from the Vanity Fair job. And while maybe Sarah Moonves and Eva Chen were people who they would really love for that job, I think they all knew Chloe was the right person, person to be the manager of that brand at this point with Vanity Fair, would they have loved to get David Haskell? Sure. It wasn't going to happen. And so the person who really wanted it and who has paid their dues got it. And we can talk more about Mark Guiducci later. But I would say that, like with this job, because Will was doing well and so beloved within the business, it's not a clear like Sam is. It's not even that Sam's young, it's that Sam has never been a manager, that he's great with advertisers. Everyone likes him, he's good at a party. He can take the photos. Does he have a vision for that magazine and the person? And then Willa, I think she hasn't really proven herself at Cosmo, and there she's done a couple interesting things. And I know a lot of advertisers really like her, but I would say that I think she still needs time at Cosmo and less so it's at look 17. They'll whatever. That's not her problem in my mind, but I think she needs some time to prove herself there. And while I think there's a chance they would go for it if her project was great and she does have the managerial experience, I'm sure her and Sam are the same age or around the same age. I'm not sure she is good enough or has proven that she's good enough. The person that has come up a lot is this guy, Adam, who is Will's deputy. His name's Adam Badawi. He is the deputy, whatever Will's title is. Will has a slightly better title than the rest of the content heads. Um, I think he's editorial director instead of editorial content. But this guy seems to be someone who everyone really respects in the building. They like him. He looks the part. He is global. He's very, as one CMO said to me, he's very well educated and, like, likable. Feedback I've gotten is like, the. Are the ideas there again, like, does he have a vision? He looks great in a suit. Can he make GQ and evolve it just a bit to make it something real? And I don't know that answer because I don't know him. You know, I don't know if you all have know anything about him, but, yeah, I. I think. Yeah.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Are you hearing that? He would, like, the idea is that he would be the global editorial director and then there would be a head of American content that was under him. And that often ranges. Oh, go ahead.

[Lauren Sherman]

I assume he would move to the U.S. i don't know. I could see them having him oversee both of them. I have no idea. I have not done much reporting on this since the news came out because I've been dealing with the sex stuff. I don't know if, Jess, if you've heard anything, but I would assume he would move to the US because this is their biggest market. And also, I mean, I'm sure you all know about this China. We don't need to get into that, but they have, like, a real catastrophe in China that this person's gonna have to deal with. And I just think being close to Anna, who's gonna be traveling a lot this year, working on the other. On the other Vogues would be really important.

[Jessica Testa]

Yeah, definitely. His name has definitely come up. And I could envision them doing something creative where he's like the global head. And then one of these more, maybe younger experience, like, you know, less experienced in management, but more visionary people could get the American title the way that Chloe has the American title of Vogue.

[Michael Grinbaum]

It also made me. I realized that GQ is the only major Kanye title that has never had a non American editor. VF Vogue and the New Yorker have all been run by Brits. But that also made me think. I mean, British gq, I think, has always been a great outpost of the magazine, has had its own kind of personality there. Do you think there's any question about, like, kind of a European or I guess like British sort of sense of masculinity is different from America. Right. I mean, it's a bit more foppish, it's a bit more eccentric. And I mean, that's some people's taste. But I mean GQ for all sorts of the street wear that will brought into it. I do think it tends more toward, like, the conservative American male dressing. And. Yeah, I'm just sort of curious about how that might play out.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And that's my argument for Chris Black, which we'll get to in one minute. But it is. Yes, I think that's an issue. I think Anna, I mean, doesn't really feel British anymore, but will always be British. I think she values education and values understanding of the world more than anything. And so I just don't know if this guy has any ideas. And also, you're right, like the uk, These European countries are so they're really niche. Like, you want to see niche magazines. Like, they go really fashion, really specific. And so I have no idea. Maybe he could handle it. Maybe he can't, I think. Is he. I want to say he's Australian, which is like another thing. I'm not positive about that. Don't fact check me or fact check me and let me know, but I don't know. I think the question is, I know Will really relied on him if A, he wants the job and B, he has enough. And I just don't. I don't know if he does.

[Jessica Testa]

When you think about meal kit companies, what do you see? Probably long, complicated recipes and subscriptions you can't escape. But with the new Blue Apron, we're doing meal delivery differently. No subscription needed. Faster, easier meals and the same dedication.

[Lauren Sherman]

To quality we've always had. Shop 100 [e-mail], get 50% off your first two orders with code APRON50.

[Jessica Testa]

Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Hi, this is Jill Schlesinger, CBS News business analyst, certified financial planner, and the host of the Jill on Money podcast. With the new year upon us, there's no better time to take control of your financial life. And the Jill on Money podcast is here to help. It's your questions that make it possible for me to provide unconventional and, I hope, entertaining insights on your money and more importantly, on your life. Follow and listen to Jill on Money.

[Lauren Sherman]

Wherever you get your podcasts. Is there anyone who we're missing who you think is just, like, going for it? And we were like, and we're going to be like, oh, damn, I totally forgot about that person.

[Jessica Testa]

I mean, it could be. There's a lot of dudes who run magazines.

[Lauren Sherman]

I know. But none of them can do this and we all know it.

[Jessica Testa]

Tom from ID could go for this. I mean, he just got a new role. But I'm thinking about people who are in or sort of like in this, like, men's fashion world who we all know. Like the guy who, who got high snobiety after Willow left.

[Lauren Sherman]

Noah Johnson's. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, he's definitely going to go for it. I mean, I don't know this for sure. I am guessing, but I would assume yes. I think Noah is another person who should be considered for sure.

[Jessica Testa]

I'm a huge fan of the dark horse, but I also think, like, that it says something that the three of us who love to talk about this company, love to gossip about this company, love to report on this company, don't know anything about, you know, Adam, don't know much about him. Like, I think, like, he'll have to. He should. If this were sort of a traditional editor's race from 10, 15 years ago, his job right now would be building his profile, I think, with people like us and like the pressure because these editorships used to be battled out in the tabloids before during the hiring application process. And I think that's really been lost. I mean, you, Lauren, I think are the only one who really reports on the horse race a little bit. But I think I remember even if you look at the Times, there's always coverage of who's next in line, who's in the succession for leadership here. But that that stopped happening at some Point in the mainstream media press.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Like when Graydon. Michael, I feel like you did pieces around that when I was. I was looking back at them when the Vanity Fair thing happened, and there was so much like, here are the seven people who could potentially get it. And now the world has just changed, and there's so much bigger stuff to cover. It's kind of like how we don't publish exclusives on lookbooks anymore.

[Michael Grinbaum]

But, I mean, so when I was researching my history of Conde Nast, which I believe is 40% off at Amazon right now.

[Lauren Sherman]

Sorry, what's the title?

[Michael Grinbaum]

I think it's called Empire of the Elite.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Okay. And, you know, the hardcover has a nice photo, some great photos of vintage photos of Anna and. Great. And everyone. No, when I was researching the book, it was, you know, it was incredible because, like, when there were editor changes that Conde magazines, it would literally be like a front page story in the New York Times. Like, they were such seismic events. I broke the news of Graydon Carter leaving Vanity Fair. This was back in 2017, which doesn't seem that long ago, but I mean, yeah, like. And we. You're right, Lauren. We did do a whole horse race story, like, handicapping the field. You know, we were calling all around town and, like, you know, the fact that that just kind of doesn't happen anymore, like, eight years later is very much reflective of where the magazine world is in the zeitgeist and, you know, its influence.

[Jessica Testa]

I do always count on Lachlan Cartwright to throw out a crazy idea, though. If anybody reads Breaker, I think he threw out Ben Smith.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, my God. He also said Noah Shackman. And one of my colleagues was like, do you think he met Noah Johnson? I was like, no. Yeah.

[Jessica Testa]

And he. I mean, he threw out Matt Bellany for Vanity Fair, which. Which did make more sense, given the, like, Hollywood connection. But Ben Smith makes sense. The who is my former boss. Makes the least sense of anyone I've ever heard.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Someone who I actually thought would have been on a short list is Sarah Ball, who. Who came up at GQ and is editing WSJ. And I think just a few hours ago, we found out that she has been promoted to oversee all features at the Wall Street Journal, which is. I'm a big Sarah fan. I think that's fantastic. Obviously, looks like she's not in the running anymore for gq, but, like, I. You know, she would have been, I think, a good choice.

[Lauren Sherman]

Totally.

[Jessica Testa]

She. She. She spent time at gq, right? Or am I.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes, she spent a lot of time There. And in Thursday's line sheet I say this exact thing. I guess she's not, not going to gq. And if, if you would like some intel on how people inside the building there are reacting to this news that she got this big promotion. I recommend you reading line sheet. But yeah, I think Sarah, I mentioned her and it was funny she was not mentioned in Lachlan's which just a note about that that she was not mentioned in his lineup. But yeah, so like on this Chris Black thing. Look, I've known Chris for a long time, so I'm kind of biased. But also like, I don't know, I don't. He has not been an editor and a manager at a publication before, so it seems pretty far fetched to me. But like it was one of those things where on our Instagram about Will's departure, a lot of I looked at who people mentioned. They mentioned Mark Anthony Green. He used to work at gq. He's a director now. I don't think he's going to be going back to G to run gq. I don't know, maybe he is someone that people would look at. I started thinking about the Chris thing and look, I don't know, maybe he wouldn't want to do it either. But the, but the point being that like you need someone who has authority with men, who understands like modern media. Chris has become famous because of this podcast how long gone that he does with his friend Jason Stewart. And also someone who like really gets fashion and European fashion, yes, but also American style, which right now I think for the next 10 years even is going to be a big part of the conversation. Like this is all connected to MAGA and trad life and all of that. And I'm not saying that Chris is wearing a Make America Great Again hat, but he just launched this brand Hanover. It's like jeans and T shirts. It's very simple. But it's about sort of that American fashion that people like Jonathan Anderson are inspired by right now. Like we've seen the success of J. Crew where Chris is a consultant. And so I think like, does he have the sort of chops to do it? That that's a question. But I think like if he does someone like that is actually a really interesting prospect. I think the question is like, is it him or is it someone with a similar profile that we're not thinking about and he's just like in our Instagram. So. But, but I think he, he is a stronger. If this was again not putting his name up for Vanity Fair. If this was a different situation, it wouldn't be a question, but, like, there's part of me that thinks they should look at him and consider him.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I like the idea of Chris Black as the Uniter we've all been waiting for.

[Jessica Testa]

I, I think it's an exciting proposition. Like, again, I, I'm a fan of the dark horse candidate, and the only thing that makes them as dark horse, I think, is not having the experience that you mentioned. But I think that's a good thing. I think we're certainly in a position in, like, American politics where people who don't have experience are being rewarded with big jobs. And I think that. I think he could do a really interesting job. The question for me, though, is, like, why would he want to? Like, he has a consulting business that I understand, you know, is really successful. He has the podcast, which, I mean, like, most podcasts are not, like, lucrative, but, like, it's really cemented him in sort of the cultural zeitgeist. And he has, like, a cool guy about town, like, floating from project to project, starting a clothing line, like, consulting situation. What seems kind of ideal in this, like, me, this, like, super fractured media ecosystem. Like, being the editor of a magazine, as we've reported, is, like, not a desirable job the way that it was, you know, many years ago.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I, I really agree that he, I think he has currency with a really broad cross section of listeners and, and, I mean, not just men, but yes men also. In particular, like, I, I. When I went on Chris's podcast last summer, I. I heard from people who I went to, like, middle school with, who I hadn't talked to in years and years. And like, I mean, that was, I was. I mean, maybe I shouldn't have been shocked, but I think that was one of the most, like, that got. I probably get one of the biggest responses from any, Any, you know, media hits I did when I was, when I was going out with the book. And I think that, I mean, it's interesting, right? I mean, that man about town is kind of what the magazine editor used to be, right? And, like, I think it would be sort of a step up where, you know, you're hosting the man of the Year awards or you're doing the super bowl thing. And like, I mean, Chris has like a celebrity circle, but this would be like another level. And, you know, I don't know if that's the sort of thing he. And I don't know whether that's what he's looking to do, but this is.

[Lauren Sherman]

A Person who went to Charlie XCX's wedding. So I think it is, but it's. But the question is like what, what would his. For all of these people? I don't, I can't. Chris is the, this is the reason it's sticking with me. He's the only one where I could see what his GQ would look like. I don't know what Sam's would look like. I don't know what Will is. Maybe Will is a little bit. I don't know what this Adam characters would look like. I know what Chris's GQ would look like. And to me that's exciting. And I think the Mark thing which we can talk about next is like evident of that. Like I'm not shocked by any of the stuff Mark is doing, but I'm enjoying it. But yeah, I think like that's the one, the one thing. And who knows? Again, this is all up in the air and hopefully there will be some good reporting in the next couple of weeks. I don't think they're going to. I think they're going to move fast. I don't think, I don't think this is going to. I think will is out February 15th. Right. I think like they got to get this sorted soon and. And it's just tricky because it just feels like there's less people to ponder this time.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I don't know.

[Jessica Testa]

Yeah, I think that's right. And I think just to transition, I think to the more questions you want to talk about. I do think there's two types of editors and one is the sort of visionary editor who leads with a really specific vision and idiosyncratic and has really specific tastes. And then there's like a crowd pleasing editor who like wants, who wants to serve their audience before they serve themselves. And I think that the publications that are more fun to read are actually the ones that are not so focused on serving their audience and are more about like this one particular creative brain and their expression of their creativity.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, yeah. I think like a great example and I mentioned this I think in the Will post and I hate to call her out but. But it's okay, she can handle it. Is Sam Berry who I think has done a great job trying to sell that magazine but does not clearly doesn't have an idea of what Glamour should be. And Glamour's hard enough because it's like a cpg and the advertising all fell out. It wasn't gonna again like she's set up to fail. But I think it's a Great example of, like, look at gq, Men of the Year versus Women of the year for Glamour, like, and how those things have evolved since these people have been the editors. I think she was probably not the right pick for this modern time of. You need someone who's very niche, who can focus on one thing to make it feel universal instead of the trying to please everybody. And so it's tricky. We'll see. I mean, if anybody knows who is actually gonna get this job, please message all of us at the same time. Okay, let's talk about Mark and do a temp check on Mark Guiducci, who has had two issues of Vanity Fair come out. He's had an Olivia Nuzzy scandal, full blown scandal. He's had. They announced the new partnership with LACMA for the Vanity Fair party. How do you all feel about Mark's first few months? He started in August. His first few months on the job.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Well, I'll say that I thought the, the Susie Wiles, you know, Trump White House piece was just a tremendous victory on every level. I mean, I think it hearkened back to two different eras of Vanity Fair, actually. In the 1980s, you know, Tina Brown brought in these kind of aggressive political reporters who made real political news. Gary Hart had like got. He was trying to be Walter Mondale's vice presidential candidate in 1984. And the interview he gave to Gail Sheehy in Vanity Fair was the reason he got knocked out of the running for that. And then what Graydon did in having Annie Leibovitz go shoot George W. Bush's Cabinet is like one of the best kind of, I think one of the highlights of his tenure and our incredibly memorable photos. And, and it was kind of provocative because, you know, it's not like Vanity Fair's readership was looking for a glamorization of the Bush administration. But I think that made it all the more exciting so to see, you know, an article that was so newsy that I think the New York Times, like wrote a front page story about what was in it. That was like how a lot of the news came out and had real waves in Washington, real waves in that White House. I know the photos then became controversial. I'm totally blanking on the photographer. But they were like fabulous, these up close black and white portraits. It started a debate. Was he making them more grotesque than they were? What were the ethics of this photo shoot? Just the fact that there was such a conversation around a Vanity Fair feature that to me felt like that was exactly what I think Mark wanted to do coming in with. Put this magazine back into the discussion. And he knocked it out of the park with that.

[Jessica Testa]

Totally agree.

[Lauren Sherman]

What else do you think, Jess, about Mark's.

[Jessica Testa]

I mean, I, like, it's really early and I'm still, like, absorbing. You know, I'm a subscriber to the print publication. I look forward to getting the February issue that has, I think, Teyana Taylor on the COVID But I think he's made smart hires. You know, I'm particularly fond of Jose, who's writing some of his stories. And I. Yeah, I agree that that Trump story was a huge victory. I think that the. Holly.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I think he needed it after what happened with Olivia, which also, of course, was related to Trump and to the political storyline. And there was, like, what. The prospect that Olivia would be writing political features, which immediately became very problematic. So it also was a. It was the corrective he really needed at that point.

[Jessica Testa]

Yeah, totally. And I think, like, people were. I don't think there was a sense of underwhelm about his first issue, the Hollywood issue, but I do think it was so overshadowed by that drama and the painting.

[Michael Grinbaum]

The painting.

[Jessica Testa]

And I will say one thing. I was really curious when that Hollywood issue came out and it focused on men and masculinity is the whole time I was like, what does Will Welch think of this? Because it felt like gqs really had been writing and covering the. The sort of evolution of masculinity over the past few years. And that was like, Will's sort of, you know, reason behind his. His whole, like, ethos. And. And I think that I was surprised to see, like, Vanity Fair really dip into this. Those same waters, like, even having, like, a sort of literary essay to accompany that photo shoot with. With who wrote that? Otessa.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Oh, yeah, and Theo Winner did. Did the shoot. I. I totally agree. I was. I was surprised by that, too, because I think one real strength of Will's GQ that I think whoever succeeds him is going to have to really sort of stay focused on is that we're actually at this moment where, like, masculinity is, like, a major debate and discussion, like, what does it mean to be a man, like, in the culture right now? And GQ's done these. They did this fantastic survey of college students, like, a couple months ago. One of Will's smart hires was Sasha Mutchnik from who did Social at the Cut. And I think that she worked on this project where they were interviewing college, like, just male college students around the country. And it was like, it was just innovative. They had a great digital presentation. It felt like, you know, had a little mark grabbitage than the usual GQ thing. I think. You know, I get. I get why Mart was like, it was fun for the boys or whatever the COVID line was, but it also felt a little duplicative of, like, what we'd been seeing in GQ for a few months before that.

[Jessica Testa]

Yeah. Although the thing I loved the most about the fashion and that cover was that they were really mixing brands in a way that I find totally refreshing and totally against, like this. This terrible pattern in fashion magazines or this terrible practice in fashion magazines of full look, like, mandate from the brands. Like, it was so fun to see, like, Abercrombie shorts with a Saint Laurent blazer or something like that was really cool. But I think his biggest test is ahead of him with the Oscars party in March.

[Lauren Sherman]

I agree, and I think it's interesting. I obviously, I clocked that there was conversation for several months about masculinity. As I always like to say, men are back. But it didn't bother me. I was really obsessed with the savviness of that Boys cover in that he was sort of mirroring what Jonathan Anderson did at Dior with Theo and this sort of Bruce Weber throwback and then also all the cute boys or whatever and kind of hiding the fact that he probably couldn't have gotten everybody. He couldn't get everybody. He wanted to get that type of thing.

[Michael Grinbaum]

And I. I, like, specifically probably couldn't get Bruce Weber.

[Lauren Sherman]

Exactly. Well, yeah, I think that would have gone one step too far.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Although many magazines do.

[Michael Grinbaum]

It was. It was the closest to get. Yeah. To get.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Yeah. But I thought. And I thought the Nuzzy stuff until it. Until we found out the. The second part of it, I was like, whatever. I. I don't. I think obviously this is a stunt, but I think it. It sort of fell. It went further than he probably ever imagined it could because she had not clearly had not disclosed everything to everybody. But anyway, most people listening to this pop podcasts don't probably know who Olivia Nuzzi is, so let's keep it that way on.

[Michael Grinbaum]

And the mix is the most important part of that. I mean, that's what. That's sort of the Tina Brown lesson. And I know, and you know, what I really appreciate about Mark is just how much he, like, is a student of sort of the classic Vanity Fair. And I think he's, you know, he's spent time with Tina, he's spent time with Graydon, you know, he has, like, a real respect for those who came before him. And I think he's been really trying to find that high, low mix that I think is what makes VF such. Such read.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And I think, I think the party's going to be awesome. Like, he's. He partnered LACMA on this new wing. I asked Matt Bellany about this and I said, do you think this is tacky? And he was like, no, I think it's really savvy. Like, it is. It's. I. It's going to be a big. It's going to have to be big because he has to invite advertisers. They can't make it tiny and not invite advertisers anymore. It's the days of that are over. And so it's going to be a big thing and I think it's going to be fun. And, you know, his real competition, I would say, and Jess and I were both there, is Sarah Moonves's tiny but sponsored W Magazine party. And that she does before the Globes. It's like super fun. And all the celebrities show up and Christian Louboutin sponsors it and he's dancing the dance floor with Kendall Jenner or whatever, and it's off the record, but they invite reporters anyway and it feels like a fun time. And Mark's thing is obviously a much bigger scale thing, but Sarah is gaining a lot of power in Hollywood. She already had a lot, but, like, you can feel it. And so that's. To me, they are the two that are really competing right now for, like, mindshare and advertising and all that stuff.

[Jessica Testa]

And they have such different points of view too. You know, I think, like, Sarah is such a sort of, for lack of a better word, like a nerd for, like, photography and like, and can do the sort of avant garde, more like, artistic thing. I think Vanity Fair still has to be a mainstream magazine, but don't forget that, like, Sarah also runs the business for W, so she doesn't have to, like, answer to a business side that is making, you know, certain, you know, demands, whatever this might be. Come to DSW for the shoes, stay for the fun. Because let's be honest, if shoe shopping isn't fun, are you even doing it right? So go ahead, try something new.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Try something different, good different.

[Jessica Testa]

Try something that feels like you, you.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Know, the real you.

[Jessica Testa]

And then definitely brag about it later because at dsw, you've got unlimited freedom to play.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Find the shoes that get you at.

[Jessica Testa]

Prices, that get your budget at DSW stores. [e-mail] Let us surprise you.

[Lauren Sherman]

A year from today. What would your dream private practice look like? Would you spend less time chasing claims or only working with clients who value your skill set? What if you had a network to reach out to for questions or free continuing education? What if you had more time for yourself? ALMA empowers you to confidently accept insurance backed by an all in one EHR that simplifies scheduling, documentation and day to day practice operations. With a network of engaged providers and free CE resources, ALMA makes it easy for you to build the practice of your dreams on your terms. ALMA believes that when therapists get the support they need, mental health care gets better for everyone. Learn more about [e-mail] get started. Your dream practice is closer than you think. Get started [e-mail] get started. I thought we would talk about Radhika Jones's upcoming memoir, but we don't have to. I. I don't know if you all have any opinions about it. I.

[Michael Grinbaum]

We should say what it because I just stumbled on it yesterday. Is, is am I right in saying it is a memoir about books or books she has read?

[Jessica Testa]

I think it's like a My Life in Books. Oh, interesting kind of concept that just from reading the Publisher's Weekly screenshot. I'm gonna buy it. I'm gonna read it.

[Lauren Sherman]

I hope you secure an interview with her. Jess.

[Michael Grinbaum]

The book Tina did after she sprawled out of Talk magazine was her delectable biography of Princess Diana.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh yes. It's so good. Vanity Fair Diaries. Obviously a must read. If there are people who are listening to this who haven't read that, leave this podcast right now and pick it up. Along with Michael's book, obviously good companion.

[Jessica Testa]

The VF Diaries make a great audiobook too. She just has this wonderful voice. But I'm most excited about Jane Pratt's memoir coming out this year. I think it's going to be like, I think she's going to go for it. I think she's going to say everything that she wants to say and it's not going to be one of these books that we saw last year that were like, felt like they were holding back, you know, the sort of juice.

[Lauren Sherman]

As the number one Jane Pratt fan. Huge reason I became a fashion journalist. Love her. When she came on my podcast, I truly started crying.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I've.

[Lauren Sherman]

I don't cry. I was like, I can't. I mean I've met her many times but it just like is very emotional for me. Her and Liz Tilberis that was like my, I wanted to be a cross between them anyway. My one concern is that she is so open and honest that she has said all the, she has told all the stories.

[Jessica Testa]

I don't know, I. With her, I just feel like maybe there are. Well, yeah, so even if she has told all of them, there's still going to be a, a discovery of them for like not the non super fans such as.

[Michael Grinbaum]

And I will say when I talk to her from my Conde book, she definitely was. I sensed she was holding back a few things for her memoir. And so I remember saying to her, I was just like, well, I just can't wait to read what you're going to come up with. So.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay, that makes me feel better. Okay, so couple final questions. Do you think that Conde Nast is suddenly a better place to work? And maybe we can discuss what happened with Gourmet in the context of that question.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I want to say something which is that I think that Conde Nast has a positive story to tell that they're not telling. So I was really struck when the whole Teen Vogue thing happened where they folded it into Vogue. You know, these writers were let go. There was sort of this firestorm over, you know, Teen Vogue had been like an anti Trump publication and where they, you know, acquiescing or something like that. And I was like, you know, the New Yorker and Wired, like have some of the most aggressive coverage of this White House of like any publication. I mean, Wired was breaking all this news about Elon Musk and Doge and you know, the idea that Connie Nast is like one of the only big media companies that hasn't like surrendered or sort of shown some kind of like, you know, capitulation to, to this administration. I shouldn't say that. I mean, but you know, we've seen that happen at ABC and cbs, which are, you know, much larger media organizations than Conde. So like the fact that they kind of weren't able to get a hold of that narrative and it just turned into like a week and a half's worth of like, Conde is a horrible place to work. Like, I felt that that was Conde, that was on Conde for not managing that news, for not like actually emphasizing the parts of this company that are succeeding right now and doing good journalism in an impossible environment for journalists. And I, I just think, like, I don't know, I, I think part. I think they create a lot of problems for themselves.

[Lauren Sherman]

Preach. A hundred percent. It's so frustrating. It's so frustrating.

[Jessica Testa]

I'll also say, like, I Think a lot of people have been in all of our DMs recently just being like, God, what is going on over there? Like, what a, what a mess. And like, I do think that. I agree with Mike. There's a positive story to be told, but there's also a, like, I have this idea that there's maybe never been a more fun time to be a magazine editor there. I know you don't agree with us, but.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, I, I, I half and half.

[Jessica Testa]

I think it's like, I think the odds are against that, like, you can produce your best work when you're coming from, like, an underdog positioning. The problem is the company at large, for reasons described in Mike's book empire of elite, 40% off on Amazon, is that, like, I don't think the company will ever let go of its positioning as, or its desired positioning as like, a luxury, high end, top of culture, top of, you know, wealth and finger on the pulse kind of thing. Like, I think if, if they truly embraced this, like, underdog, like, dynamic. You have all these millennial editors coming in who have, who are so well positioned to, like, turn rags into riches because that's, like, what their generation knows best. And they could really, like, have some fun and be scrappy and be weird and get attention and, and I hope they do. But I think, like, their parent company might get in the way a little bit unless it lets go of that, like, posturing that it's held onto for decades.

[Lauren Sherman]

I agree with half of that. One is, I don't think, I think it could still be luxury and elite and all that stuff. I think we both work, we all work at places that have proven that you can have fun while managing your business properly. Like, you're right that all these millennials, they know that they aren't gonna have budgets like they used to and they're not dreaming of that and all because they never realized it. Neither of you have ever worked there, right?

[Michael Grinbaum]

No, no.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay. I worked there for two years from 2011 to, like, end of 2012. And I was the executive online editor of Lucky magazine, so. And I reported directly to the editor in chief, who was Brandon Holley. And what I will say is the problem, the problem is, and I agree that, like, I think Mark is having fun, or I hope Mark is having fun. I think Chloe seems to be having fun. They just launched Vogue Book Club, Wuthering Heights. Like, great.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I think it's really into it.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm so into it. Like, thank God it's not an Emily Henry novel. Like, this is it. You could still be a lead. Like, obviously, the movie's coming out and stuff. But I think the problem is, like, I have to tell you all, yes, I'm a reporter. And that's why I shouldn't have had that job. It was the worst job. I've never. I've liked every other job I've ever had. It was terrible. The three days in, I remember I ran into Eric Wilson, former New York Times reporter, and I said, I'm just gonna stay a year and use it as, like, just to observe how they work because it was so terrible. And I'm sure, like, these jobs suck. Like, they are just awful. All you do is you go in meetings and they tell you can't do anything, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think I'm. I hope that that's changing now that there is a new generation of leadership. And it does feel like if I was 27 years old, I would want to work for Mark. I would want to work for Will or Chloe. Like, they seem fun, nice, interesting people trying to do interesting things. But there is a lot of. And I do think it's changed. This is a great thing that's changed under Roger Lynch. There is a lot of the legacy stuff has been pulled away because a lot of those legacy executives have been moved out. But the problem is, like, as we're talking about what happened during that Teen Vogue thing, like, what were they thinking? Like, the people, the hr, the union workers storming Stan's office, like, just manage it. None of that has happened. And we all can see it from the outside. And it feels like. It does feel like they're doing themselves a disservice when. And you're right about the fact, Jess, that, like, being scrappy and doing stuff creatively right now, there is a big opportunity there. And everyone who's 45 or younger like, understands that and, you know, really 50 and younger at this point. Like, I'm getting up there. So, like, it is. I just think that unfortunately, we are going to have to do their pr, essentially.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Look, I mean, it is so, so hard to turn an institution like that. And the New York Times went through that sort of growing pain process of, like, even getting people to experiment and innovate, you know, took a long time. No, I. I mean, in a way, like, Conde has done that stuff, the test kitchens, the, you know, the video. But I mean, of course, all those had their own bumps in the road. I do sometimes wonder. I mean, they're sort of. They're also in a bit of a. Like, Anna is so powerful and in so many ways, like provides the power of the place. But of course she is just from a different generation. And like, I think it's great that there are younger editors who are finally taking over these magazines, but they all are reporting up to her. And I think Anna has many talents. But there is something to be said when you look back through the history of Conde Nast. You know, it was known for these ruthless firings of editors where they just, after 20 years they'd be tossed out the door. But you know, the reason Diana Vreeland was fired was because Vogue was not relevant anymore and it was starting to lose money and it was just not in touch with the culture. And as brilliant a fashion editor she was, she wasn't, you know, attuned to, you know, femininity in the 1970s, which is, you know, where the magazine had to go. And, and Conde is only, you know, its cultural currency is what gives it its influence. And, and you know, there's a point where they're just gonna have to like jump off the diving board and kind of hand it off to the next.

[Jessica Testa]

Generation if they want to survive. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

So what can we talk briefly about what happened with Gourmet that just. You wrote about this yesterday.

[Jessica Testa]

Yeah. Five journalists basically joined forces to apply for the trademark that Conde had lit Lapse. Gourmet shuttered in 2009 but they had kept renewing the trademark which lasts 10 years. But I think that there is a sort of trademark law where you have to, if you're going to hold on to it for 10 years, you have to use it. And I think in this last decade they hadn't used it or they simply forgot to renew it. Something happened. They didn't renew it. And a journalist, this journalist, Sam Dean, who used to work at the LA Times and has worked up on a petite in the past, realized this and got together and formed a sort of worker owned publication similar to defector 404 media hellgate. If anyone is familiar with those publications and their. They're putting out a newsletter, turning into newsletter.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Just the idea that Conde's IP department would not realize that Gourmet was like in a lapse and they would lose control of it. I mean, speaks to. I mean, we haven't actually got comment from them on this. Right. We don't quite know what happened but like from the outside it's.

[Lauren Sherman]

They haven't commented on this.

[Jessica Testa]

Shocking to you. I know.

[Michael Grinbaum]

It's just, it's just and you know Jess's article, which everyone should read because it's, it's a great piece. You had like 400 comments on there on the New York Times website. And yes, I understand, like New York Times readers are older, just as most like legacy media readers are. But God, the memories people have about Gourmet and like, you know how much it means to them and people still have their old issues and their old recipes. I'm just sitting there, like, just do something with it. Like, you'll get a response. And like, the fact that they were so lackadaisical to let it lapse is like, I mean, it's not a good situation.

[Jessica Testa]

Yep.

[Lauren Sherman]

Final question, you all. Do you think that the editors of the magazines, of the papers, of the whatever they're called now are contractually obligated to thank Stan Duncan in their Instagram posts? Because I noticed Mark did it. I believe Chloe did it. Will did it. They all thank Roger lynch, the CEO, Anna Wintour and Stan Duncan. And I just think it's. I, I love our, our head of people, Amy. I'm not thanking her in my Instagram post about anything.

[Jessica Testa]

I don't know. I mean, what do you think?

[Michael Grinbaum]

I would say Khane Nast is a place where managing up is one of the most important skills you can have to climb the pole. So it's possible that it's kind of just ingrained in everyone there. I can't speak to sort of Stan's.

[Lauren Sherman]

Individual charisma given Stan's like larger than life presence in line sheet. I just think it's, I just think it's funny.

[Jessica Testa]

It is really funny.

[Michael Grinbaum]

He's a line sheet character. He's one of your. Yeah, he's a regular.

[Lauren Sherman]

He really likes going to fashion shows. And then every time he goes, even if I'm not at the show, someone calls me and it's like, Stan went this time.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Oh, that's good.

[Lauren Sherman]

I mean, he did, he was, he did a red carpet photo at the Met. Don't do that. Just don't do. It's just like you're an HR guy. I understand. Like, maybe you could be the CEO of Chanel someday. Lena Nair used to be an HR person, but like she was an HR person at Unilever, not Conde Nast, a private company that makes less than $2 billion a year or whatever.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Before we go, do we think that Zoron is going to go to the Met Gala?

[Jessica Testa]

Yeah. This has been a big topic of conversation for me just with my old fashioned friends. I don't Think he's going to go. I think he should go, but I don't think he's going to. I think it's like going. It's too, it's too dangerous. It's too at odds. I think, I think that his, his team is so savvy that they'll probably find something else splashy for him to do that night as like, counter programming. But Eric Adams went. I think Bill de Blasio went once. That could be wrong. Somebody fact check me. But he could go. I just don't think he will.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I think he might be too cautious to go this year, but I think eventually he will show up. I think what AOC did with the tax the rich dress, that's the closest parallel here where you have another Democratic socialist. Like, how do you reconcile the fact that this is like the most lavish elite event of the year and yet also like one of the, the most, you know, beloved New York City institutions and you're raising money for art? And I think, I mean, this is like a whole podcast in itself. But Rama, First Lady Rama, I also think, you know, she is a big supporter of the arts. Well, and also designers. Also of what's emerging. Designers is the phrase. And I do think that, like, the chance for, if she, like the, the exposure that one of these designers would get to like, have Rama wear their dress at the Met Gala would be astro. I mean, that would change their life. And like, there's a, there's a question in my mind, like, you know, yeah, like, whatever, it's a lead or something like that. But I mean, she's kind of then holding back. Like, it would be life changing for someone to have her wear.

[Lauren Sherman]

My question is, what is his sort of, what does he want to do after this? What is his ambition? Because I agree. I think she wears Colleen Allen. It is, it's big for everyone involved. Not being living in New York and observing all this has been fascinating for me because I feel really connected to the city. But as I think I said this on a previous podcast, this is the first time where I've this feels there are a lot of people who vote Democrat who are like, I didn't vote for him. Like, it's just, it's really polarizing in a way. Whereas, like, you know, all those Republicans who say they didn't vote for Trump and actually did. I feel like there are a lot of Democrats that didn't vote for Zoran that say they did that.

[Jessica Testa]

But I also think there's a lot of people who never voted before who came out.

[Lauren Sherman]

But I, but I think, like, I don't know, we live in a world where he should be able to an F you to everyone. But I think a question is, like, who's a sponsor? Is it Amazon or is it, is it a bank or whatever? And are people not going to be smart enough to put two and two together for that year? And then also, like the long term thing is, I don't know what the long term damage would be and also what he wants to do after he does this. So I think, I think they should do it because it's, you know, supporting an institution in New York. Whether or not they will, I don't know. Maybe, maybe there's. We're putting too much emphasis. Like how damaging could it actually be? I think it depends on who they wear and how they act at these things, that type of thing.

[Michael Grinbaum]

I could see him punting this year and coming back when he has a little more time to gauge things.

[Jessica Testa]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Grinbaum]

But he is a master of like image and public. I mean, he's fascinating. He's great at it.

[Jessica Testa]

So, yeah, it would capture so many headlines and I think it'd be very good for Vogue and the Met to have him there. But I agree, I think he great for suit supply.

[Michael Grinbaum]

That too.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, yeah. This was great, guys. You're the best. Read Michael and jess on thenewyorktimes.com buy Michael's book and I'm sure that we'll have another reason to do this soon.

[Jessica Testa]

We love you, Fashion People.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Come to New York soon, Lauren.

[Lauren Sherman]

I will. I'll be there February 7th. I'll see you.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Thanks for having us.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, bye everybody. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations. Guys, Dobby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Well, the holidays have come and gone once again. But if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift. Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year. What do you have to lose? Give it a [e-mail] Switch limited time.

[Lauren Sherman]

50% off regular price for new customers.

[Michael Grinbaum]

Upfront payment required.

[Lauren Sherman]

$45 for three months, $90 for six.

[Jessica Testa]

Months or $180 for 12 month plan.

[Lauren Sherman]

Taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy.

[Jessica Testa]

See terms.