Marissa Meltzer (4:42)

Hi. Thanks for having me again.

Lauren Sherman (4:45)

How's it going? How's life?

Marissa Meltzer (4:48)

It's good. I'm, you know, I New York had a heavy winter and all I can think about is spring, but the weather isn't totally cooperating. But we had, I'm sure you saw on social media like 3 hours of 70 degree weather or something like that and people freaked out.

Lauren Sherman (5:08)

I saw, I want to say Central.

Marissa Meltzer (5:10)

Park or I think it was the Sheep Meadow.

Lauren Sherman (5:13)

There was like a viral video it was insane. And you know what I thought when I saw it? I thought, this is why I don't live there. Because there are no parks like that in la. Because of the fact that it's nice like that all the time.

Marissa Meltzer (5:28)

Well, also because people have backyards.

Lauren Sherman (5:31)

It's true. Yeah. Part of me was like, whenever I see that, there's part of me that is a little envious. The one that I always feel envious of is that Dolores park in San Francisco.

Marissa Meltzer (5:45)

Oh, Dolores park is beautiful. But again, San Francisco. I say this as a, you know, native of the Bay Area. It. It doesn't get that hot very often. No, it's not park weather, but I see. I love a crowded park. It feels very, like, convivial. And. I don't know it. I was not cognizant for the 70s, but I feel like that's what the 70s were like. Just, like, packed parks with people being friendly and sexy to each other.

Lauren Sherman (6:15)

That. I think that you got the sexy part right.

Marissa Meltzer (6:20)

People selling, like, you know, a lot of drugs. Well, no, I'm. Yeah, maybe. But I was actually gonna say cocktails, like, out of their bags. Oh, I don't know.

Lauren Sherman (6:32)

Yeah, I feel like I like park culture. I do feel like, you know, if you. If you got in New York in the 70s, it feels like you got in on the ground floor.

Marissa Meltzer (6:42)

Oh, absolutely.

Lauren Sherman (6:43)

And I do feel really, like, jealous of people who bought homes in the 70s, who bought homes outside of the city in the 70s.

Marissa Meltzer (6:51)

Even the 90s. Yeah, even, you know, 2005. But I don't know. Have you read the Graedon Carter memoir?

Lauren Sherman (6:59)

I did.

Marissa Meltzer (7:00)

I'm almost done with it. And I read the Keith McNally one that's, I think, coming out soon as well. And, you know, it's such the classic line of, like, it was gritty. There was, you know, I had an apartment for $200 that. Two bedrooms in Soho. And it was disgusting. And it was the greatest time of my life. You know, it's become a cliche, but it seems to be a cliche for a reason.

Lauren Sherman (7:24)

$200 a month, a garden, and an expense account. I actually went yesterday, Book Soup. Did a talk with Great. And a friend of mine had tickets.

Marissa Meltzer (7:33)

Oh, fun.

Lauren Sherman (7:33)

I did not bother to buy them. Someone gifted me a ticket.

Marissa Meltzer (7:37)

Oh, I went to one up in. At Temple Emanuel, was it.

Lauren Sherman (7:43)

Who. Who interviewed him?

Marissa Meltzer (7:44)

Bette Midler. She was amazing.

Lauren Sherman (7:46)

Oh, that's amazing.

Marissa Meltzer (7:47)

She's our last great American. She's. She's so quick and witty, and she was great.

Lauren Sherman (7:55)

This Was I had to leave early because I had childcare responsibilities. But this was Monica Lewinsky, who I love, who's a lovely human being. Her hair looks amazing. She just looks truly incredible. Like, she looks so good. But I would say that it. I was like, okay, I read all these anecdotes in the book already.

Marissa Meltzer (8:18)

Yeah, I saw him first. It was. I think it was the day the book came out, and they were all new to me. And then I read, reread them and thought, oh, okay, a lot of these. But, you know, you've done a book tour. It's kind of how it goes. Like, people love asking in book tours. You know what. What didn't make your book. And it's like, babe, everything. We put it all in there. Like, anything decent is in the book.

Lauren Sherman (8:44)

Yeah. I felt like I was actually thinking, because you interviewed Chantal and me at McNally Jackson in South Street Seaport, which was really great. I don't know. I think if I was interviewing Graydon, my line of questioning would have been totally different. So I think it's also about, obviously, you have the most famous person you can. And Monica has. Plays a big role in the book. And she was really like, everybody should read the book if you're interested in this stuff. It's a very polite book. That's how I would describe it.

Marissa Meltzer (9:17)

Yes, it's polite. It's a very, like a little bit of a. It's laudatory. It's a lot of kind of giving praise and thanks where it's due and poking fun of people that can take it. But, yeah, yeah, I think. I mean, look, it's hard to. I like to go off piste and, like, just have a conversation with people in front of me. But I'm also a journalist, so that's my job, is just being good at conversation. And that is not the job of Monica Lewinsky. And I will never have hair as glossy as hers or, like, you know, so good. It's a different skill set. But, yeah, you want to get, like, the biggest draw and that is. Yeah, she's. Bette Midler was amazing. And I had forgotten that she had played Sue Mangers in a Broadway show that Graydon Carter had produced or that Vanity Fair or both.

Lauren Sherman (10:12)

Yeah, yeah, I like that story in the book of his turn as a Broadway producer. Question for you. I have not read the Keith McNally book. I need to get the. The. I don't even know if it's a galley at this point, just a copy. But which one would. Would you say? Got to you more emotionally.

Marissa Meltzer (10:33)

I. I don't know if I'm supposed. I feel like I'm gonna get in trouble for saying anything, but who cares? The Keith one is extraordinary. If the Keith one wins, you know, awards, I wouldn't be surprised. I think there's. I think because his life, at least to me, is less public in terms of details, there. There are things about his life that were surprising to me, and it's written with a depth of emotion that is. Is pretty moving even to people with hearts of stone like myself.

Lauren Sherman (11:13)

I cannot wait. I have a funny little anecdote in Monday's line sheet, actually, about, you know, he scheduled one of the book parties the same night as the Met gala, didn't he?

Marissa Meltzer (11:23)

Really?

Lauren Sherman (11:24)

Yeah.

Marissa Meltzer (11:25)

Which, like, it's a power move. I love it.

Lauren Sherman (11:27)

And what I did was I reached out to people very close to him and said, what's the deal? And they were like, we're not going to that one. We're going to one on Tuesday. So I think there's probably like seven or at least a couple. And this one seems to be the one that, like, a lot of downtown people are invited to. And there's going to be a Richard E. Grant reading, and there's, like, songs by people I'd never heard of before. And so it sounds fun, but I. The. The person was like. I'm sure he doesn't even realize also, because, you know, he's very.

Marissa Meltzer (12:01)

Not that many people are. That's true. But also not that many people are invited to the Met Gala. I mean, it's. And a lot of the people that would want to go to a Keith McNally, maybe in the 90s, there would have been a higher overlap, but now I don't think that, like, I don't know who's going to be there. Like, Bad Bunny and Sabrina Carpenter, like, it's just not the same.

Lauren Sherman (12:23)

This is exactly what I wrote, because someone. The person who told me about it was like, isn't this funny? Said, well, you know, maybe this per. And it named some, like, downtown socialite ish people who were big in the night, like, very part of the 90s fashion scene. And I was like, they're not invited to the Met gall anymore. The Met gal is.

Marissa Meltzer (12:44)

I'm trying to think of the only crossover. It's like Chloe Sevigny, maybe like Annabelle Dexter Jones or something like that.

Lauren Sherman (12:53)

And Anna herself, who. So I think the thing. I just. My assumption is that there is another thing that Anna will be involved in. And also the book comes out On Tuesday. So it's like the book comes out on Tuesday. You're gonna have the thing on Monday and do something. Probably. Maybe Anna's going to something on Tuesday.

Marissa Meltzer (13:14)

That's the. I mean, she could also throw him a party in D.C. there's just so many. You know, the book rollout, as we've seen now, can be such a long, ever loving thing. She could be in conversation with him. And also he knows that she supports him. Like, she's been, you know, there from his days at 1 5th. And so also she's busy. It's not like you're your good friend who has kids who, you know, the barrier for entry is getting a babysitter. Like, it's Anna Wintour.

Lauren Sherman (13:47)

Yes. Yes. I would say that seeing Sarah Hoover's book tour and also Josh Duboff, I've been like, we didn't do enough stuff. How are you feeling about. Because they've both. Sarah has been pounding the pavement and I feel like Josh has, too.

Marissa Meltzer (14:02)

Yeah. Do you.

Lauren Sherman (14:04)

You have a book? Is your book coming out in the fall or.

Marissa Meltzer (14:07)

Yeah, it just got moved up a month. It's coming out in October. It's coming out right around when yours did. I think it's on, like, October 6th or something like that. 7th. It's basically like the last day of Paris Fashion Week.

Lauren Sherman (14:20)

Amazing. And. And it's about Jane Birkin.

Marissa Meltzer (14:23)

It's a biography of Jane Birkin. It's called It Girl.

Lauren Sherman (14:26)

Amazing. It's going to be a huge hit. I know it. How are you feeling? You've done this before, so I have.

Marissa Meltzer (14:33)

But in some ways that makes it worse because it's not a blank slate. Like, you can't just get press because you're a new person writing a book. But I'm very proud of it. I think it's like, it's kind of the best thing I've ever written in some ways, because it fuses gossipy reporting with criticism, with real kind of revisionist history and style and movie and music criticism in a way that. And plus doing it in two languages. It was, you know, it was a task, but I think it's really good. And I think, you know, the question of, like, how do you keep the spotlight on someone who is always kind of this, like, muse or ancillary character in their own life is a really important one. So I'm excited. I'm exhausted and overwhelmed, and all I want to do is, like, have a mag like Vogue from 1996 call and send me to a spa or.

Lauren Sherman (15:37)

Or, like, we need to get you to that spot that what lands door.

Marissa Meltzer (15:41)

Lanzer Hoff. All I want is for Lanzerhoff to call and for me to bring a friend and to do. And I'm like, just give me the hardest. I want the hardest regime that they can give me.

Lauren Sherman (15:54)

It's gonna. Let's secret this to happen for you.

Marissa Meltzer (15:57)

Yeah, I mean, I have a substack. I can write about it then I'll write about it for, you know, the magazine of anyone's choosing. But yeah, I want to eat like the really hard, crumbly brown bread that they make you chew a ton of times. I want to take the weird laxatives. I want to. I mean, I just reviewed the book about Gala Dali and so much of her early years were spent at sanitariums in Switzerland just getting like fresh air cures like bring us back.

Lauren Sherman (16:29)

Anyone who could teach me how to chew my food, which I never learned. I'm in. Are you still looking for the perfect mascara that doesn't flake, smudge or irritate your eyes? If so, you have to try Ilia's Limitless Lash mascara. It's an award winning clean formula that lengthens, lifts and separates with up to 12 hour wear. The unique dual sided wand works like a brush and lash comb in one for long lifted clumpy lashes. Even better, it's boosted with powerful lash care ingredients to strengthen like a lash serum. And it removes easily with warm water. At the end of your day, you can choose from two shades, soft black and a new rich Brown. With over 25,000 5 star reviews and 19 industry awards, it's no wonder Limitless Lash is the number one best selling clean mascara. Try it for yourself with 15% off your first order at Ilia beauty.com just use the code fashion people at checkout. That's I l I a beauty.com and code fashion people for 15% off your first order. See iliabeauty.com for all the details. Okay, so moving, moving on. Another, another press run. I wanted to briefly. Rachel last week wrote about sort of what's happening at goop where, you know, there really aren't that many people working there at this point. Apparently they're hiring an editorial director. There's a tip for anyone who needs a job. But. But the week before GP Gwyneth Paltrow had done a Vanity Fair cover, an in depth profile with Michelle Ruiz, who I thought did a good job of it about a movie Marty supreme that she's doing that's not coming out until Christmas. And Then she also simultaneously did a Q and A in Fortune about the company. And I was like. And you know, she used to have a chief brand officer, Nura Raj Brown, who did all this stuff.

Marissa Meltzer (18:30)

I'm a big fan of hers.

Lauren Sherman (18:31)

Yeah, Nura's great. And is, is.

Marissa Meltzer (18:34)

She has a great, she's a very fun substack.

Lauren Sherman (18:36)

It's a great substack. And and also is. Was really good at her job. Like very, very good at her job because, you know, we, we were calling her all the time about stuff that, you know, they don't want to talk about. But she was really good at protecting the company, but also not ignoring us, which is always helpful. Like I, I thought she was.

Marissa Meltzer (18:57)

She's very good at her job. Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (18:59)

Who is a qu. The question for me is like, who managed this? And do you think. Because like, you just did a piece with GP last year about Goop's 15th anniversary and I've interviewed her a couple times. My thing about her. And you have more experience with celebrities, but is that like, she's really good, she doesn't need a PR in the room with her. Like, she knows what she's doing, she can manage herself. And most like old school celebrities like that who have been around it forever are like that. But she's excellent at it and she's consistently doing press. But I just felt like this was too much. Like if I were her advisor, whoever was advising her, I'd be like, I don't think you need to come out right now and talk about the state of this GOOP business, which is not like is in a restructuring mode, which is totally fine. But like, don't do a Q and A with a business magazine. I don't know. I thought it was too much.

Marissa Meltzer (19:53)

I don't know. I have a theory behind it, actually.

Lauren Sherman (19:55)

Tell me.

Marissa Meltzer (19:56)

My theory is that all of this is planned towards a big Oscars award season run a la Demi Moore. And she's getting the GOOP CEO corporate stuff out of the way now, addressing it so that she doesn't have to when she does whatever major profiles, TV segments. The big push to sort of remind us that she's an actress, that she has this very glamorous looking role that was filmed all over my neighborhood last fall and can't wait to see it. It looks great. And from some, you know, some people that we know, some New York characters are in seem to have like little extras roles and stuff like that. Oh, fun. And yeah, I think that it's, I think the GOOP stuff is her effort, I'm not saying it's successful, but of being like, I'm a CEO. Here's what I think about this country company that I've devoted, you know, 15, 17, 17 years of her life to. She has the CEO role, she takes it seriously. And then come this, you know, fall, I imagine the movie could be premiering at New York Film Festival or, you know, something. And, you know, come the fall, when she really wants to do her, I'm reintroducing myself as an actress. Remember me? I won an Oscar. Now I'm gonna get a support in one or at least try to.

Lauren Sherman (21:38)

I, I think you may be right. I also think they've been trying, they would love to sell goop. You know, nothing's ever for sale, but I think for many years, the reporting that I've done, obviously Rachel has done a ton of it, but I have heard like firsthand of her being like, let's get, get this going.

Marissa Meltzer (21:56)

Oh, I'm sure. And those, you know, yeah, financiers and VC behind it, they've got to be about as itchy as, as, you know, glossiers by now of like, let's get a return.

Lauren Sherman (22:09)

Yeah, I mean, maybe not that much. I don't think many of them are going to get a return, to be honest. I think that, like, the big thing that I've learned, the interesting thing about Gwyneth Paltrow is she's a founder, she's a celebrity, and she's also truly the, the CEO of the company. Like, a lot of people are like, no, she's. I'm like, no, she actually runs the business. Like, I, I've been reporting on it for long enough. Like, and that is part of the problem. She's never been able to hire someone who is strong enough to kind of run the business and that she trusts and all.

Marissa Meltzer (22:41)

Yeah, I mean, it's hard. I. My book about glossier had that. And I think so many of these sorts of, like, founder centric brands have that issue where it's really hard to find your trusted number two, which I get. I am a control freak as well. But I also, you know, I'm very comfortable with what I don't know about and love farming out information to people who know what to do. But not everyone is like that. And, you know, I'm just talking about a very small scale with like, my life and not, you know, goop.

Lauren Sherman (23:16)

Totally. And she, she is incredibly smart and incredibly savvy. And so there aren't that many people who are as smart as Her. So it's this thing of like she has founder syndrome, she has celebrity synd. She has also is actually the issue of Mala.

Marissa Meltzer (23:32)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (23:33)

Yes. She's also competent. So it's this thing of like it's this perfect storm of she has this amazing thing and they never really figured out now, I mean look, hopefully Goop Kitchen will sell for a ton of money, but that's a different cap table. So it's interesting. And you know, as, as our friend Amanda Dobbins always says, we wish her the best.

Marissa Meltzer (23:53)

We do. Although Amanda had a real breaking point with her sort of lack of condemnation of RFK Jr. Which I agree she has. I mean she mentioned him in the article that I wrote about her for the New York Times and you know, she has a big platform to denounce him and she's not. So.

Lauren Sherman (24:13)

Yeah. And yeah, if you all want to listen to that episode of Jam Session, it's, it's really good. And Amanda brought up a lot of good points. I think my feeling about that and I think I said this to Amanda or made a comment when I linked to Jam Session in line sheet, but I just don't understand how she didn't. Just don't say it because during the pandemic when the vaccine stuff kind of came up and also just like the beginning of the pandemic they were extremely goop was extremely careful. They never said anything anti vaxx, they never said anything pro vax. They just like sort of got out of that world and didn't engage with it. And I thought I was like, okay, this is smart of them because like this is litigious territory and be careful. So I'm just, I, I am surprised she didn't like just get around that question and, but instead actively engaged with it. And that was, I was, I was shocked. I did, I thought it was not. I would not have advised her to do that. But you know.

Marissa Meltzer (25:19)

Yeah, I don't know who's. I wonder who is advising her, if anyone is. I, you know, I think part of that is like the confidence and hubris of an actor. Also someone who's somewhat sort of cloistered in west coast wellness world where, you know, drinking raw milk seems pretty normal. And then you know, you zoom out and you realize that, you know, these things have much more far reaching sociopolitical cultural complications and connotations and consequences.

Lauren Sherman (25:59)

So it will be an interesting year for Gwyneth Paltrow. Once again, she never escapes us.

Marissa Meltzer (26:04)

Yeah, I'm, I, I love Michelle Ruiz and I thought the Profile is great, but I'm very here for any big Gwyneth profile. I'm dying to hear all about Marty supreme and her sort of engaging with the world as an actor again. For sure. I will read all of them.

Lauren Sherman (26:22)

One thing I'm a little bit sick of. And then we should move on. We'll do a quick fire round because I know you want to discuss summer shopping. I think there have been too many movies about older women and young men. I'm done.

Marissa Meltzer (26:38)

I don't think it's stopping anytime soon because I'm a close reader of like Publishers Weekly Publisher's Lunch for Books. And I am seeing the sort of post all fours Miranda July effect on books. It seems like there's a lot of memoirs and novels coming out with the themes of sort of, you know, midlife sexual reawakenings. Be that with it's, you know, a younger person or what. And I imagine the same thing is going to be happening with, with movies and, and television.

Lauren Sherman (27:15)

I.

Marissa Meltzer (27:16)

Whether or not. I don't know.

Lauren Sherman (27:17)

I don't know which. I don't know what. Pot. I don't think it was Amanda and Juliet on jam sessions. Someone was talking about this recently and made this point of like, can we just have older women having relationships with men their age? Like, that would be interesting to me.

Marissa Meltzer (27:36)

Yes. But I will. As someone who is not married and having relationships. Yeah, it is. Once it is interesting who is sort of, I don't know, hitting on you or who you're meeting. Like, yeah, I. All of my, you know, I have dated a lot of people much younger and much older than me. And I feel like a lot of the people my age are. Maybe they just haven't gotten divorced yet.

Lauren Sherman (28:05)

It's coming. They're.

Marissa Meltzer (28:06)

They're tied up. But also like the. I also care less about my age. I'm more interested in are we at similar places in our lives? You know, blah, blah, blah. But I'm also notorious for having strange taste in men or unpredictable.

Lauren Sherman (28:25)

I think you. You have great taste and I enjoy hearing about as. As a person who's been married for a long time, I love hearing about your. Your situations. I think. Yes. I think the issue I have with it is it's very much about their age every single time. That's true. And it's like, who cares? Like, this doesn't matter. Like it's. It. It needs to evolve beyond that. And I would say in all fours that it's not about what's his face's.

Marissa Meltzer (28:58)

Age, the age it's like, no, it's about where she is in her life as sort of this paramenopausal woman. I don't know. I was just reading. Do you. Are you reading that, like, hate read thing with Delia? Delia substack occasionally. The one today is sort of an anti, I guess, like, downtown Dime Square screed. And my issue with it is it kept being sort of like, you're gonna get old. And it's like if someone. And there you're gonna get old was like 38 or something. And it's like, baby, as someone who's way on the other side of that age, like, everyone gets old. It doesn't mean that you necessarily, like, go off to the pasture and are never seen again. Like, you're gonna turn 38, 40, and you're gonna have kids. And you also may want to get a drink and be around hot people sometimes.

Lauren Sherman (29:49)

Yeah.

Marissa Meltzer (29:49)

Not that I disagreed, but I think I. People are obsessed with age that haven't been that age. Do you know what I mean?

Lauren Sherman (29:55)

Like, yes, I agree.

Marissa Meltzer (29:57)

It has to be the tie in to Gwyneth because it's written by people that are younger or, you know, the idea that someone at that age is having a. A sexual relationship with Timothee Chalamet used to only be the stuff of my fan fiction.

Lauren Sherman (30:14)

I mean, now enjoy. Not for me. Not for me. Two final things. One is that I love Delia and I would love to have her on here. I. That. I think that that is a. An interesting column that is very. It really illustrates the issue. We're in media right now because it really needs an editor.

Marissa Meltzer (30:38)

Like, a lot of great ideas.

Lauren Sherman (30:40)

Yeah.

Marissa Meltzer (30:40)

Also people, if they're not using their names, they're not naming names. Like, be more specific.

Lauren Sherman (30:47)

Yeah. So. So, yeah, let's get you an editor, Delia. I. Huge fan. She should come on Fashion People soon. But. But the other thing I just want to say, closing with Miranda July, I went to this Kim Hastrider. Is that how you say her last name? The Paper magazine founder. I went to a book party that Carla Welch and some other people threw for her at the Chateau on Tuesday night. That was super nice. And there were just like, a lot of it. It was not like. It was just. It was like. Because, you know, Kim is really friends with a lot of people. I don't know her, but she's really friends with, like, Carol and Umberto were there. Like, it was. It was. Yeah, yeah, it was fun. And I just got to catch up with some people. But Miranda July was there and I was with Rebecca Ramsey who styles her occasionally. And she came over to say goodbye to Rebecca when she was leaving. She was wearing this skirt that was split down the back and she was wearing sheer tights and like, you could see her whole crack. It was amazing.

Marissa Meltzer (31:52)

That's amazing.

Lauren Sherman (31:53)

She looked so good. I was just like, you look. She's incredible, has amazing sense of style and is.

Marissa Meltzer (32:00)

Who did she write the stuff for? Was it Prada? Was it someone else that she worked? She did work with a brand. Was it Prada?

Lauren Sherman (32:08)

Yeah, she did a campaign that she wrote for Prada. She also did an amazing event Hermes did where she did like a dance at this club.

Marissa Meltzer (32:16)

The dream. Watching her perform since I was in high school because we grew up near each other and grew up in the same sort of like punk house show circuit. So I. She has been a part of like, sort of someone that I've watched and vaguely associated with, although not really since. Yeah, I think we were both teenagers. She's maybe like two years older than me or something like that. But it's wonderful and wild to see her doing this like, Prada stuff and all of that. Hermes. What a dream.

Lauren Sherman (32:50)

It's fabulous. Are you tired of showing up to dinner parties with the same old uninspired bottle of wine? There has to be a better way to find unique wines that people will actually remember. That's why Psalmsation is a total game changer. Their expert team finds incredible wines from top independent producers. Bottles you won't find at your local wine shop. These wines aren't mass produced. They're handcrafted with care, using pure ingredients and meticulous winemaking. And the best part, Sompsation's team of sommeliers curates every selection so you know you're getting wines that are truly special. Whether you want a single bottle, a full wine club membership, or even a guided tasting experience, Sompsation makes it all easy and enjoyable. Explore now@somsation.com fashionpeople.

Marissa Meltzer (33:42)

When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like Aloe Allbirds or skims. Sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business. Making, selling and for shoppers, buying simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. And the not so secret secret with shop pay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business. Your commerce platform better be ready to sell whenever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout experience as business powerhouses like Aloe Allbirds and Skims. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com Odysseypodcast all lowercase go to shopify.com Odyssey podcast to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com Odysseypodcast.

Lauren Sherman (34:52)

On the entire other end of the fashion industry, Sarah Shapiro at Line. She did a piece. Yes. On Friday about the sort of upswing that Brooks Brothers is experiencing. They're seeing like a big uptick in foot traffic. And, and she kind of looked at why their business was performing well. She talked a lot about shirting. And, and they are, most businesses are bottoms are the like if you ever listen to an American Eagle earnings call, which I'm sure many of you have, they're, they're always like, we're not doing as well in tops. We need to get better in tops. Brooks Brothers is one of the few companies that sort of excels in tops. And they have been. But they have a weird, they're, they're owned by like one of these weird brand firms. It's a joint venture and it's when they were bought by this ABG owns part of them and they're also part of the Spark capital, which is, it's convoluted. It doesn't really matter. But anyway, their ownership does not lend itself to brand protection. But I was just curious as someone who is just interested in clothing and Brooks Brothers, to me, anytime I talk to a retail executive or a fashion industry executive, it's a brand that people really, really love and care about and they want to succeed. And I was just curious what your relationship with Brooks Brothers is. Have you ever bought anything? Because I feel like we just go to Charvet.

Marissa Meltzer (36:30)

I know. I'm such an asshole. I, I don't think I've ever bought anything from Brooks Brothers. I grew up with a father that sort of only wore either like surfer weekend California clothes or Armani suits in the 80s and there was no in between. And so he was, he's very not preppy. So I didn't grow up in kind of like a Brooks Brothers family. And then by the time I got, I think of the age where I was interested in wearing, you know, shirting and that kind of stuff, tailoring, it all had like Lycra and Spandex in it and was like Stretchy and kind of was like glorified Ann Taylor and. Yeah, I don't know. I have a friend that has their pajamas, but I've walked by them many times and felt very unimpressed. So I was a little bit shocked when I read that story. But I guess I'm not the customer, but I feel like we should be the customer. I would love to buy their shirts. I would love it if they had some very cute suits or something like that. But I don't. I don't think it's there.

Lauren Sherman (37:41)

Yeah, the last time I really looked at it was when Tom Brown was designing a collection and had. They had stores and it was. Had a much different ownership structure at that time. It's much higher end and I know they've done well with like airport shops, that type of thing, but. Yeah, I mean, I think my dad also was. My dad was preppy in that he was like very into Ralph Lauren, but It was like 80s hipster preppy. So he was not. He grew up in Ohio and. And was not going to that like one store in Ohio that has Hermes ties or whatever. He wasn't doing that. He was. He was really into fashion, but not. It was more fashion. It wasn't like, like he. I'm sure he read the preppy handbook, but he wasn't like. He was trying to aspire to that sort of east coast preppy. He was wearing like track shorts and pull and Ralph Lauren polos and.

Marissa Meltzer (38:33)

Oh, I love. Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (38:35)

Yeah. I mean, he has amazing style. He still dresses really, really well.

Marissa Meltzer (38:39)

But like, speaking of grading, Carter, you know, I think it's like around the kind of him moving to work for Time Inc. In New York area and he, you know, one of the first thing he does is getting like a Brooks Brothers charge card or something like that, you know?

Lauren Sherman (38:54)

Yeah. Before he graduated.

Marissa Meltzer (38:56)

Anderson Shepard.

Lauren Sherman (38:58)

Exactly. Yes. So that wasn't. My dad wasn't that far. And he also was like working in retail at that time and like wearing lots of suits and probably had like one Armani and all of that. Like, it was like very. He was in. He was into fashion. Fashion. I definitely get it from him. But. But yeah, I think that is the challenge when it's owned by these sort of generic companies. I. It's hard for me to believe the hype. Like, yeah, they have higher foot traffic because they have tons of stores in like these shitty malls now. And so maybe that's enough. I mean, you look at. I always think about this company. Untuck it.

Marissa Meltzer (39:42)

Oh, yeah.

Lauren Sherman (39:43)

Success that they are fascinating. You're like, who would buy a shirt from a place that's called untuck It? Like, it's just. It's so crazy to me. But then I am reminded many times over that most people do not have. And it's not even that they. They don't have good taste. They don't have taste because they are not interested or encouraged or want to put any time into that. So I don't know. And the one thing that Sarah said that I thought was really fascinating was the fact that, like, women were buying a lot of the men's shirts, which is understandable. And I thought maybe I would try that. But, like, I also don't have to. I own a bunch of charvet shirts that aren't that much more expensive than.

Marissa Meltzer (40:23)

I know, especially because you can still get them secondhand. I also think I forget what the stats are, but what is the percentage of women who still of, like, wives who buy all their husband's clothing? I mean, it's like 50% of. Of men don't buy their own clothes, which is probably the scariest statistic that haunts me in the world. But I think, you know, if you're a woman buying clothes for a man, and as we've talked about before, the department store is dwindling. You go somewhere like Brooks Brothers, you know the name. Maybe it's in a mall near you. You can buy some stuff for yourself at the same time. Maybe that's the sort of, you know, easy entry. It's a name that you recognize that connotes quality, Whether or not the quality is really there.

Lauren Sherman (41:12)

It just. To me, it's like, wouldn't those people just go to J. Crew at this point? It's a. It's just an interesting.

Marissa Meltzer (41:17)

I, I, Yeah, I, I agree. But I don't know. I just. I also, I just bought my stuff from first thing from, like, the new.

Lauren Sherman (41:24)

Gap of me too.

Marissa Meltzer (41:26)

What'd you get?

Lauren Sherman (41:27)

That's so funny. I got a navy T shirt, and I got Hillary Kerr recommended. It's a tank that's like a ringer tank. So it's navy with white around it. And then I got. That's very. Your shorts. Yes, exactly. I don't have a navy T shirt that doesn't have, like, stains on it. So I needed it. Also, I realized I don't look good in navy.

Marissa Meltzer (41:50)

I don't think that's true.

Lauren Sherman (41:52)

I look better in black.

Marissa Meltzer (41:53)

Oh, interesting.

Lauren Sherman (41:54)

It really washes me out in a way that I didn't realize until about, like, three months ago.

Marissa Meltzer (42:00)

I think I look better in navy, but it doesn't stop me from wearing black all the time. I'm a New Yorker.

Lauren Sherman (42:05)

Yeah, yeah, I wore navy. I wore head to don navy on. On Saturday. Just wore a lot of blush.

Marissa Meltzer (42:11)

Beautiful.

Lauren Sherman (42:14)

So one other thing I wanted to chat with you about because you are a beauty reporter among other things is this 13 loon, this thing that's going on with the CEO and founder, co founder Niyako Grico, who is facing. There's a civil lawsuit in California. She's being accused of fraud and embezzlement. The lawsuit says she used over $165,000 of funds on personal expl expenses including like Taylor Swift, concert tickets, cosmetic treatments, stuff like that. Sarah wrote about this on Friday because she pulled out like the very specific things which was the interesting to me was like what she actually spent the money on. But I've had a lot of conversations with people. To me the thing that stood out is like it wasn't that much money. Like do. I don't know how many of you listening know founders or our founders, but like I know people that spend a lot of stuff on a lot of stuff and it. I just, I was surprised that it got to the point where, where she was sued. That's.

Marissa Meltzer (43:33)

I agree. Also, I. And again, I'm. I'm not good at accounting or bookkeeping, but I would think that a lot of that could theoretically be justifiable as like product development expenses or. I don't know. Am I crazy? I'm not saying that what she did was right. It just seems weird that she was flagged for these things that are sort of so relatively close to what her job is. It's not like she's spending it on like seeking arrangements or, or you know.

Lauren Sherman (44:09)

And you know, we, we can't say what is right or wrong. We will let the. The law speak for itself. Absolutely.

Marissa Meltzer (44:16)

I always speak for itself.

Lauren Sherman (44:19)

But what I would say the other thing is that it's unfortunate. Look, I think anytime you build a business based on something that isn't just the product is really great, it's a challenge. And you know, 13 Loon's idea was they were going to highlight black and brown brands and which I think is like really noble because a. There are a lot of black and brown entrepreneurs in the beauty space that need funding. And you just pop over to 15 pledge and you hear absolutely, yeah. Find all about it. Aurora James does a great job at, at highlighting those people and making sure they're getting money because it's really hard if you're a woman or especially if you're a woman of color to get any kind of fundraising. And, and these are, are brands that like need to exist. So I think it's like a very valid and important idea. But I think the challenge is, and this is the thing, anytime we're talking about like a marginalized group in culture, what you want to do is make it so that like no, they are just a part of the culture. They are just on Sephora shelves, they are available to everyone and you're not like othering them. And I think the problem, that's why.

Marissa Meltzer (45:38)

This suggests something like Ami Colet is so good where it's just a great beauty brand who is part of their story is that they have a black founder and that their products are really made for women with, you know, melanated skin. But also, but kind of first and foremost beyond that or next to it is that the products are beautiful and great and look cool and are easy to find and anyone should want them. You know, and I, I think that, that maybe is the problem when you get into that kind of like gold rush of people wanting to cash in on social responsibility or something where you wonder how, how far that kind of commitment went. It's easy to start feeling very, I don't know, pessimistic or at least you know, something about all of it.

Lauren Sherman (46:38)

Yeah, it's, we're in a weird time because we're, it's like a lot of anti woke culture and, and woke backlash or whatever. And a lot of these things that were really progressive that needed to happen weren't executed in the best way. And so now it is sort of all falling apart. But you know, there's always another bend in the road and hopefully whatever happens with this case, this person can move on.

Marissa Meltzer (47:05)

And yeah, it's also just like sad that it's so relatively low stakes when you know that there are horrors being, you know, committed by many men in power of much larger companies and you know, they face no such backlash as this. It's just I wish that the, you know, spotlight was elsewhere.

Lauren Sherman (47:32)

That is exactly it. So on a better note. Okay, I thought I know you wanted to chat about. First of all, a friend of mine is texting three stores in soho where you can get cocktail dresses. I said Louisa Villaroma la garcon. And then what's that store that that April woman who used to be a st. Stylist owns that has like Karen Callahan type vibe and B sides jeans and stuff? Oroboros yes. Yes. Is there any other stores that you.

Marissa Meltzer (48:08)

Think like multi brand?

Lauren Sherman (48:10)

It could be. This person is not gonna buy a Prada dress.

Marissa Meltzer (48:14)

So it needs to be okay.

Lauren Sherman (48:16)

It needs to be like a mid. I. I said Louisa Villaroma for the higher end.

Marissa Meltzer (48:21)

Yeah. Louisiana is a little expensive. I. Yeah, I would probably pop into to like totem.

Lauren Sherman (48:29)

Oh yeah. Oh, this person is not totem.

Marissa Meltzer (48:31)

They're not going to say G. Okay.

Lauren Sherman (48:34)

Okay.

Marissa Meltzer (48:36)

Yeah. I think I. Then I would also say they're probably not going to buy anything at L areon.

Lauren Sherman (48:41)

True.

Marissa Meltzer (48:42)

But true. And I like Laar Son. I find the in shopping experience there to be abysmal.

Lauren Sherman (48:51)

It's awful. They're. They're so rude. Hire Nice.

Marissa Meltzer (48:53)

They're so rude. They're so rude. And then they also. I've literally shown them pictures of things on their website and they said that they don't carry that brand.

Lauren Sherman (49:03)

So the worst part is. And this is not their fault. There are not an they. It. I'm sure it's hard because you don't have. It's hard to know how many people to employ. But like on Sundays there it's really busy. They need to have more people. Like once I was like, can I try on these seven things? And they were like, yes. It'll take us about a half an hour to go get them. Oh, I've been there where I'm the.

Marissa Meltzer (49:24)

Only person in there. And they take half an hour and they act like I'm a peasant in from the sticks who's never bought, you know, doesn't know how to buy clothes.

Lauren Sherman (49:34)

Yeah. Their warehouse seems to be like four blocks away. I. It's not. But that's what the vibe that they give give you. You're.

Marissa Meltzer (49:41)

You're a store, then figure it out.

Lauren Sherman (49:43)

Like, it's annoying. It's.

Marissa Meltzer (49:45)

If you want me to shop in person to things then like, make the experience not excruciating. Maybe she should go to like Desert Vintage and try out some vintage.

Lauren Sherman (49:57)

That's not a terror. It's not a terrible idea. I'm telling her. Okay, that's enough. So.

Marissa Meltzer (50:02)

Okay.

Lauren Sherman (50:02)

So what are you. What are you shopping for? For summer?

Marissa Meltzer (50:08)

Yeah. For me it's aspirational at this point because the weather has not caught up, but it's all I can think about. I just bought a few things from Addersi, Isabelle Wilkinson's brand that I'm. Do you. I forget, do you wear stuff from them? Do you have stuff?

Lauren Sherman (50:26)

I do. I really like it and think she does an incredible job. I Find that I end up cycling it out, and it's not because it's not good. I love that satin sort of work jacket. She did. I really want to get that hep worth, but I. Yes. I. I just feel like I haven't bought the right things for me. Maybe.

Marissa Meltzer (50:48)

Maybe you need to go to the showroom and, like, really trying everything on. That's what I did.

Lauren Sherman (50:52)

Yeah. Yes. But the stuff that I do have, I. I also have the cashmere blend jacket that's. It's like a barn jacket, but doesn't have a contrasting collar. But it's that cute style jacket in a cashmere navy, and I wear that.

Marissa Meltzer (51:08)

Her fabrics are. Yeah. I'm like a real text textiles person, and they're so beautiful. I got a knit, sort of like silk blend knit navy T shirt dress that I sized up, so it's a little more, like, loose.

Lauren Sherman (51:23)

Amazing.

Marissa Meltzer (51:24)

I got a really good shirt dress. I got a cashmere silk T shirt, and I got a sarong skirt. I've, like, never met a sarong skirt I didn't love, and this one is really cute, so I'm excited.

Lauren Sherman (51:37)

It's very your style, and it's also. You go on. On proper holidays, and that's where you get.

Marissa Meltzer (51:44)

So I live in New York, where it's genuinely so hot for months, and, you know, I want to wear something to dinner that's not like a tank top.

Lauren Sherman (51:56)

Yeah. I was thinking about that this week, that. Because so many of my friends are out of town in. In July and August and are like, you guys can stay at our place, but I don't want to be there during that period because it's so hot and it's so lovely in California in July and August that.

Marissa Meltzer (52:15)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (52:15)

Why would. Why would I want to experience.

Marissa Meltzer (52:18)

See, I really love. I love the hot weather, but I think that's because I didn't grow up with it.

Lauren Sherman (52:22)

Yeah, I like. I like the. I'm fine with 90, but I need it to be dry. Dry as a boat.

Marissa Meltzer (52:29)

Understandable.

Lauren Sherman (52:31)

So. Yeah, it's not. I don't really have. You were asking me what I. We're going to Tokyo on our vaca. On our spring break. I'm not gonna. I'm gonna go to orally. I'll probably buy something at. Or.

Marissa Meltzer (52:44)

Oh, I might need you to. I might put in a PO for your orally.

Lauren Sherman (52:48)

Please. Please. I'll send you. I'll let you know when I'm going. Yeah.

Marissa Meltzer (52:52)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (52:52)

And we can make sure you're awake and we can do. Do the because it's much more affordable. I know.

Marissa Meltzer (52:59)

This is my favorite kind of friendship, is when you send someone live updates from, like, the Dre's mansion in Antwerp or whatever.

Lauren Sherman (53:06)

Oh, it's.

Marissa Meltzer (53:07)

It's so great. Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (53:08)

I prefer the Dre store in Paris, to be honest.

Marissa Meltzer (53:10)

I do, too. But the Antwerp one is very. It was kind of like getting. Yeah, it's like getting a special passport stamp or something like that. I felt like I had really paid my due. Do you know where the Dre store is going to be in New York?

Lauren Sherman (53:25)

I don't. I think they might be opening a proper store and then also a beauty. Fragrance. Beauty.

Marissa Meltzer (53:31)

And I know. I just want to know where it is.

Lauren Sherman (53:34)

I bet they'll do one uptown, one downtown. That would be if. If I were them.

Marissa Meltzer (53:38)

I know, but they're going to start with one. My guess is they'll start downtown, but who knows?

Lauren Sherman (53:44)

Who knows? I think they're very driven by architecture that's, like, real. So it will depend on, like. The one in LA was the former opening ceremony, and it was a really cool. It's a really cool special.

Marissa Meltzer (53:58)

I know. All that weren't what. It was like, Charlie Chaplin's dance studio, practice studio or something. I've heard that story a gazillion times.

Lauren Sherman (54:05)

Cool. But, yeah, I'm not. I don't. I'm trying to think of what I'm buying. I'm gonna buy for summer. I think I'm gonna need some new. I just got. I ordered some shorts from that brand, Spencer. We had Amanda on last week, last Friday, and they're the men's. Because. And Amanda and I discussed this. I have a real issue with baggies generally. They just do not. I hate this word, but they're not flattering on me. Also, they just don't really fit. Like, I always am adjusting them.

Marissa Meltzer (54:35)

Are they flattering on anyone?

Lauren Sherman (54:37)

I don't know, but I. But I would say that I just don't feel comfortable in them. And these are great because they're elastic, thick in the back, but they have a flat front. And they also. I got. They're. They're men's sizing, but I feel like I'll wear them a lot this summer. And I usually. I just have, like, a bunch of track shorts from Amazon.

Marissa Meltzer (54:58)

Yeah. Are these, like, nylon? I wore a lot of lacrosse shorts last summer.

Lauren Sherman (55:03)

Oh, yeah.

Marissa Meltzer (55:04)

Which I think will continue into this summer.

Lauren Sherman (55:07)

No, these are like a hard fabric, a tech fabric that. That's woven, so it's very. It feels I can wear them out. And about. They're not too long, they're not too short. They feel like I could tuck a shirt in and it wouldn't look weird. I, I like them, but I tend to, I mean it is challenging because like I want to do a high sport pre order right now. And I'm just like, I don't need anything else because I only wear stuff when I go in la. I go out a couple nights a week, but I don't, I wear jeans.

Marissa Meltzer (55:45)

When you go out a lot. See, I don't. But then I'm often then the most dressed up person at all time or whatever.

Lauren Sherman (55:53)

Yeah. And I went to a dinner at, I went to a dinner at the Bel Air Hotel last Tuesday for that jewelry thing at present.

Marissa Meltzer (56:02)

And again, all of these things you're going to in LA do sound very glamorous to me.

Lauren Sherman (56:07)

Well, this one, I dressed up. I wore old Celine pants, I wore a Saint Laurent 80s shirt and I wore my new Phoebe Filo blazer and I, I did dress up for that, but also, but generally I tend to just wear jeans and a blazer and, and on Saturday I did a live taping of Fashion people at Design Space.

Marissa Meltzer (56:27)

Oh yeah, how was that? And what did you wear?

Lauren Sherman (56:29)

It's good. I wore a navy charvet sweater, a pair of high sport navy pants, a pair of like hot red heels from Bali that I got on my trip.

Marissa Meltzer (56:44)

Oh yes, I saw, I saw the picture because I got the sandal version. Oh, fun.

Lauren Sherman (56:49)

Yes, yes, yes. And then I wore. It was cold yesterday Saturday in la. So I wore a Prada over like overcoat type thing. But it was fun because it was fun to dress up. And then I just like changed into slides afterwards.

Marissa Meltzer (57:05)

But what you change into slides? Isn't that like a one and a half, two inch heel or.

Lauren Sherman (57:10)

Is wasn't that high, but I just felt too dressy because then we went, we walked or we went for coffee with my good friend Phil and then we went, I went to Maxfield and I was like, I feel too. You know how people dress. Like they wear these like disgusting.

Marissa Meltzer (57:27)

No, I know they're wearing the puffy sweats. I know they're wearing like weird bad, had fancy sneakers.

Lauren Sherman (57:35)

Awful.

Marissa Meltzer (57:35)

I know LA is awful. Some people look amazing in la, but almost everyone looks awful crazy.

Lauren Sherman (57:43)

That strip of West Hollywood up on Melrose where the, the Verve and like John Elliott and Totem and Maxville are. People just look truly, truly horrific. And if I had to, every time I go there, I think if this is all I did, I couldn't live here because they look so bad. And when I was in Maxfield, which was super busy and has literally every single brand. They have Miu Miu, they have Gucci, they have Phoebe, everything. It's crazy. And it was very big.

Marissa Meltzer (58:15)

The Hirschleifers of la.

Lauren Sherman (58:17)

Exactly. But this group of people came in as we were leaving, and they all had on. And this is I. I was interviewed for this Luk story about what the look of the 2020s is going to be. And I said black top and light colored jeans.

Marissa Meltzer (58:35)

Oh, yeah.

Lauren Sherman (58:35)

Every person.

Marissa Meltzer (58:36)

Yeah. The Bonanza girls in the West Village wearing them. Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (58:41)

This group of people, men and women, family. Some sort of. The half of them must have been related. Lots of very groomed eyebrows. Like, very.

Marissa Meltzer (58:52)

Like, still wearing them.

Lauren Sherman (58:53)

Thick. Yeah. And they all had on some version of this. And I was like, we have to leave.

Marissa Meltzer (59:03)

We need to go.

Lauren Sherman (59:05)

We need to get to Hollywood. I cannot be over here. But it's a very.

Marissa Meltzer (59:10)

Because side of LA has its own terrible, reprehensible uniform agreed to in the same way.

Lauren Sherman (59:16)

But the thing is, like, there are other pockets of. I was in Beverly Hills yesterday. I went to the Blue Bottle up on. I believe it's on. I don't even know what street. Beverly Drive up by. Oh, South Beverly. It's right by South Beverly Grill. That area. Everybody's just, like, normal. And I was with my friend. We actually walked from there to the Writers Guild Theater for the Graydon thing. Like, and that area is fine. There's, like, pockets of areas where you're like, okay, everybody looks. I love Larchmont. Not everyone is, like, beautifully dressed, but, like, it feels normal.

Marissa Meltzer (59:53)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (59:53)

But this.

Marissa Meltzer (59:54)

This is why I'm not an L. I'm. I'm not an LA person. It's all too close to my cursed childhood. I just. Yeah, yeah.

Lauren Sherman (60:01)

No, as long as I don't have to go to that area a lot, I'm okay. But it really. Yeah. I was like, we. I need to leave because I. I cannot engage with. With this type of person at this point in my life. Willingly. Not just for work. Yes. So that was my. That's my recent shopping. Marissa, we talked for a long time. Is there anything else to say to each other? I know. Is there anything else? You know, I. I was chatting with Stelene because they. They hired our friend Alisa.

Marissa Meltzer (60:35)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (60:36)

And she was saying the three of us should have dinner next time I'm in New York or drink or something.

Marissa Meltzer (60:40)

Yeah. I can't wait. I just did a piece for my first piece. For Elle Decor on the decorator Julia Julie Hillman's home, which I'm ready to move into. But yeah, I'm excited for what she's going to do with Elle Decor.

Lauren Sherman (60:54)

I am excited, too. Congrats to Elita Lucy Karatz.

Marissa Meltzer (60:59)

It couldn't happen to a better person.

Lauren Sherman (61:01)

Yeah, I'm certainly pronouncing her name last name wrong, but you know, when you do that for the first time. Marissa, it was great to catch up. Congrats on almost being done with the book. I can't wait to discuss it in the fall and I will see you very soon.

Marissa Meltzer (61:11)

Everyone will have galleys soon enough, I hope.

Lauren Sherman (61:14)

Can't wait. We'll talk soon. Bye. Bye. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. In additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.