Jane Addiction

Summary

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Fashion People – "Jane Addiction"

Host: Lauren Sherman
Guest: Marissa Meltzer, Author of It Girl: The Life and Legacy of Jane Birkin
Date: October 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the legacy of Jane Birkin, examining her impact as a style icon, her cross-cultural persona, and her enduring influence on fashion, culture, and personal identity. Author and journalist Marissa Meltzer joins Lauren Sherman to discuss her recent biography of Birkin and what it means to build and maintain an "effortless" legacy in fashion—and why Birkin’s story transcends style manuals and influencer culture. Listeners get an inside look at Birkin’s life, her relationship with French and British societies, and her surprisingly understated views on her own fame.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Jane Birkin?

[08:42] Marissa Meltzer:

• The idea for the biography sparked after Birkin’s death but was also a perfect convergence for Meltzer’s interests: fashion, music, film, and French culture.
• Meltzer chose to write a comprehensive biography, moving beyond the "how to get French girl style" genre.
• Quote: “There’s always a certain point where I have to get out of my own way. And for this book, it was focusing on her life...” ([09:55], Meltzer)

[11:25] Lauren Sherman:

• Praises Meltzer for her focus and restraint, saying the book avoids overwhelming the reader with trivia (“kill your darlings” in journalism).

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2. Birkin’s Upbringing & Cross-Cultural Identity

[16:07] Marissa Meltzer:

• Discusses Birkin’s upper-middle-class British roots, her “stiff upper lip” upbringing, and how the contrast with French culture made her transition unique.
• Birkin’s move to France in 1968 placed her at the center of two major cultural moments: the British “youthquake” and the louche Parisian 1970s nightlife.
• Quote: “She sort of fully embodied the swinging 60s youthquake ... then fully embodied sort of the louche nightclub, ... 1970s Yves Saint Laurent Paris.” ([17:46], Meltzer)

[19:39] Meltzer:

• Discusses the insular nature of both British and French social circles, noting that Birkin’s acceptance in France was unusual (“Paris is so the center ... it can be really hard to break into.”)

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3. The "Style Icon" Phenomenon

[25:34] Lauren Sherman:

• Opens a discussion of what constitutes personal style and the origins of Birkin’s “look.”
• [26:04] Marissa Meltzer:
  • Attributes Birkin’s style to her British background, theatrical family, and love of authentic, unforced dressing (e.g., her market basket, “espadrilles bought on vacation”).
  • Birkin’s apparel choices were often organic, stemming from individual taste rather than fashion mandates.

[28:55] Lauren Sherman:

• Considers other style icons: Jean Seberg, Catherine Deneuve, Brigitte Bardot, and questions inclusivity in the canon of “style icons.”

[29:35] Meltzer:

• Points out the “whitewashed” aspect of historical style iconography and discusses the possibility of Rihanna as a modern, more diverse successor.

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4. The Birkin Bag: Myth & Reality

[32:41] Marissa Meltzer:

• Birkin was not a calculated capitalist—she did not profit significantly from the Birkin bag’s massive commercial success.
• She “wanted things on her own, very specific terms” and eschewed the typical path of celebrity product licensing or self-branding.

[35:46] Lauren Sherman & Meltzer:

• Discussion of the Birkin’s rollercoaster status in the resale market and how the “Kelly” and “Birkin” cycles represent shifting values.
• Notable Moment: Meltzer owns a vintage Kelly, dreams of a Birkin, and reflects on seeing Birkin’s actual bag at auction.
• Quote: “It must be odd to have the kind of most famous thing about you and your name belong to something else.” ([38:13], Meltzer)

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5. Birkin’s Approach to Fame and Contentment

[39:33] Lauren Sherman & Meltzer:

• Birkin was content with “enough”—she valued work-life balance, spent time with her family, and didn’t strive for relentless fame.
• Meltzer references Birkin’s diaries for a behind-the-scenes look at a life spent not only working, but living.
• Quote: “She valued work, life, balance, she cooked, she had a nice but not overly fancy country house...she worked, but...she seemed to spend plenty of time with her kids...” ([40:00], Meltzer)

[41:43] Meltzer:

• Birkin’s measured ambitions are viewed as almost alien in today’s hyper-capitalist, hyper-visible society.
• Her “normalcy” and indifference to fame are precisely what feels so aspirational now.

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6. The Modern Absence of "Effortlessness"

[42:43] Lauren Sherman:

• Discusses how constant connectivity, branding, and social curation have eroded the concept of authentic cool—Birkin’s type is rare today.
• Quote: “They always say the end of cool and no one's cool anymore. And I think that's kind of true.” ([43:41], Sherman)

[43:52] Meltzer:

• Birkin’s complexity, occasional mistakes, and unmanicured persona made her relatable. Today’s celebrities are over-styled and curated by teams.

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7. Style Takeaways—What Birkin Inspires Us to Buy

[47:09] Lauren Sherman:

• Asks Meltzer if researching Birkin led her to make any fashion purchases.
• [47:22] Marissa Meltzer:
  • Jokes about resisting Birkin’s iconic bangs.
  • Bought “a healthy amount of Alaia” and a beaded Alberta Ferretti skirt reminiscent of Birkin’s era.
  • Respects Birkin’s approach to owning a few well-chosen pieces.

[48:57] Podcast Host:

• Praises the book for enriching the reader’s life, with details that prompt readers to actually Google Birkin’s iconic looks.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There’s always a certain point where I have to get out of my own way. And for this book, it was focusing on her life...” – Marissa Meltzer [09:55]
• “She sort of fully embodied the swinging 60s youthquake ... then fully embodied sort of the louche nightclub, ... 1970s Yves Saint Laurent Paris.” – Marissa Meltzer [17:46]
• “It must be odd to have the kind of most famous thing about you and your name belong to something else.” – Marissa Meltzer [38:13]
• “She valued work, life, balance ...she seemed to spend plenty of time with her kids...” – Marissa Meltzer [40:00]
• “They always say the end of cool and no ones cool anymore. And I think that's kind of true.” – Lauren Sherman [43:41]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 08:42 – Why write a Jane Birkin biography?
• 16:07 – Birkin’s British roots & cultural adaptation to France
• 25:34 – The origins of Birkin’s personal style
• 28:55 – The style icon canon & diversity
• 32:41 – The economics and myth of the Birkin bag
• 39:33 – Birkin’s relationship with fame and contentment
• 42:43 – The erosion of effortlessness and "cool"
• 47:09 – What research inspired Meltzer to buy for herself?

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Conclusion

Lauren Sherman and Marissa Meltzer deliver a vibrant, thoughtful conversation on Jane Birkin’s multilayered legacy—from the construction of an icon to what it means to live a balanced, authentic life in a world that increasingly commodifies selfhood. The episode blends cultural history, gossip, and style advice, echoing Birkin’s enduring appeal and the impact of genuine, unmanicured individuality.

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Transcript

[Lauren Sherman]

This September at Hauser and Worth in New York, Ambera Wellman will present Darkling, a suite of absorbing, otherworldly oil paintings. Motivated in part by her upbringing in rural Nova Scotia, her compositions offer complex entanglements between animals and humans, the organic and the man made, exploring paintings role in the midst of the climate crisis. In this new body of work, Wellman engages subjects ranging from funerary rituals and strip clubs to compositions that defy genre even as they draw upon celebrate the painterly innovations of such historical masters as Goya and Courbet. And Beryl Wellman's inaugural exhibition at Hauser and Wirth Worcester street will coincide with the presentation of new works by the artist entitled 1000 Emotions at Company Gallery at 145 Elizabeth street in New York. Visit houserworth.com for more information and visit Darkling at 134 Worcester street and 1000 Emotions at 145 Elizabeth street in New York. Now through October 25th.

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[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Hello and welcome to Fashion People.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

And Beauty Memo Line Sheet, and today.

[Lauren Sherman]

With me on the show is the one and only Marissa Meltzer, author of It Girl the Life and Legacy of Jane Birkin.

[Marissa Meltzer]

We discuss the book, the Business of.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Being a Style Icon and so much more.

[Lauren Sherman]

Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a Fashion person. You get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

The art world and much more.

[Lauren Sherman]

If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News fashion people to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone.

Hope you're having a great week.

I am in Paris.

I'm a little sick. I'm getting extremely funny texts from someone who listens to this podcast at the moment. Don't hug me. I'm sick.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Oh my God.

[Lauren Sherman]

Just getting so many funny texts. I love all of you, but I hope you're having a good time in Paris. I'm having a pretty good time as always. Lots of weird stuff going on, lots of drama, lots of intrigue, lots of meeting you all on the street, which is fun. Shout out to the people who helped me the other night. In Thursday's line sheet, you'll find my Dior take with some additional reporting and info you won't get anywhere else. Really, really complex. Lots to unpack there, as they say. I also have reports from Tom Ford and Korege and a bunch of other Marie, Adam Leonard. Lots of good shows and and on Friday and Monday there will be more. More from the shows. It's a really packed weekend, lots of debuts still to come and I hope you enjoy this conversation with Marissa. On Thursday I went to Sotheby's for a lunch that was that she hosted and we got to. We got to see a lot of cool stuff. I think it's embargoed of what exactly I got to see. I not that I signed anything, don't worry but like I'm gonna honor an em from about this thing. I'm not going to be rude, but I also got to see many friends. Becky Malinsky, Nomi Fry, also Lauren Collins, Lindsay Truda, my two friends from Paris, Carla from Vogue.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Like it was just a really great crew.

[Lauren Sherman]

Taylor from Interview, Laura Riley.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

It was just a really good group of people.

[Lauren Sherman]

Marissa's very chic. She looked great in her Alaia and I hope you enjoy this conversation with her. You know she. We are obviously friends and have a lot to say but it was fun to discuss the sort of business of.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Being a person who's clothes other people copy.

[Lauren Sherman]

So enjoy and have a great weekend. I hope to see you around this week. Marissa Meltzer. Welcome back to Fashion People.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Hi. I'm so happy to be here.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

I'm so happy to be here today.

[Lauren Sherman]

You are here for a very special episode.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

But before we get started, what did you have for breakfast?

[Marissa Meltzer]

Okay, so I don't usually eat breakfast, but I knew I was coming on, so I ate something so we could talk about it, which is. Have you heard of Burley Bakery?

[Candice Dillard Bassett]

No.

[Marissa Meltzer]

It's kind of the talk of the Upper east side. It's a British bakery that's owned by, like, the Maximes people and, you know, the Burleigh family. And it's. It opened up just steps away from Central park, steps away from the Kate and Totem Lake standoff. And it is. It's. It's very good. It's extremely expensive. They make their own ice cream, and I think a pint is $36. And they make their own chocolates, which are delicious.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

I'm in the past for anything that's $36, and that is ice cream.

[Marissa Meltzer]

They also have, like, a very good. They have a seated area upstairs, and they have this power bowl that's like coconut yogurt and, like, a bunch of fruit and nuts. It's very keto. Anyway, not that I am, because what I ordered was a croissant. And their baked goods and coffee are like, you know, the normal price of, like, a bougie bakery. But, you know, it's like, if you want to know what the moms and the denizens of the Upper east side are wearing, you just have to go to Burley on a weekday or a weekend and pick up some iced coffee.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

I am going to be in New York the first week in November for a family trip. We're staying on the east side.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, you are?

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

But further downtown. But I want to do a day where I come up really early and spend, like, most of the day up there and go shopping and go.

[Marissa Meltzer]

We should go to the Frick. I'm a member. I'm obsessed with the Frick. And also the Frick restaurant is great, people watching, and also very delicious.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Great. Okay, maybe I'll just work. I'll. I'll start at Burley for breakfast. I'll do a breakfast meeting, dinner, and then work. And then we can have lunch at the Frick and go to the Cuz. I have. I have been wanting to go.

[Marissa Meltzer]

And you can do shopping. Like. There's a new caller, the newish Call Meyer store, Susan Alexander. I don't know what's opening, but she's opening a Store right near there, Upper east side. Great.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

It is the new down uptown is the new downtown. Okay, Marissa, so you are here today to talk about your new book, It Girl the Life and Legacy of Jane Bergen. Well, it's interesting because I actually, I wanted to chat with you about the fact that this is a real proper biography. It is not a book about how to get French girl style, which you could have done and could have pitched, but this is a proper biography about a really interesting woman. So I think to start, why her for the next subject of a book? And then also why did you decide to do like a straight up biography and not. You could have formatted this in many different ways?

[Marissa Meltzer]

Well, I think the book was not to sound like an ambulance chaser, but the idea did come after her death. And you know, as. As sometimes these things happen in book publishing and someone actually my editor at their time suggested it, but I don't think she really understood how much she was at kind of the nexus of all these nerdy interests of mine. I love fashion, of course, but also, you know, have always been really into film and really discovered her through music in college. And then I also, you know, I speak French. I'm a crazy Francophile. I, you know, so that sort of aspect was really interesting to me. So she was kind of in the middle of all of these nerdy interests. And I do think that you've written a book. Like, it's. The fun of it is you get, you know, sort of like a blank page in order to go as deep as you want to in a subject. But if you don't really, if you're not really interested in it, it's. That could be drudgery. So this book was just a complete pleasure, at least in like the research phase and stuff. Writing is always its own unique hell. But. But yeah, I, you know, there were moments when I thought. When I had a little more about kind of the selling of the French girl and. And sort of French girl style and its origins and the kind of. Like, at one point I listed every sort of French girl style book that I could find on Amazon and there were like 30. But it just felt like there's. For me, for a book, there's always a certain point where I have to get out of my own way. And for this book, it was focusing on her life, which also meant there were, you know, long digressions about Serge Gainsbourg or some of her kids that I cut out. Because my issue with a lot of books is that there's two, you know, Just because you have the information as a writer doesn't mean you need to share it. You know, maybe that's what your sub stack is for. Maybe that's what interviews are for. But, you know, there's a lot of things people do to kind of impede the, the narrative. And I think, you know, smart writers understand how to take that kind of like surgical precision in editors and keep the focus where it needs to be. I, you know, I think the book has a lot of cultural context, but I also think that it doesn't kind of. You're not ODing on it. You're not like, wait, what were we talking about?

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

No, and it gave me. Here's the thing. I think you're 100% right. And that whole sort of like, you don't have to put everything in it and kill your darlings is a common phrase in journalism. It's true. Like, you really do need to get out of your own way and keep it moving. And that is one of the reasons I think your books have been so successful, because they do that. And also.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Her.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

I mean, obviously you talk a lot about her the way she is and that is. And style. And I want to talk about the idea of a style icon and, and her and how, how she fits into all of that and in a minute. But her way of being was what people were attracted to and what you did was you showed instead of telling. So a lot of it is about, like, her, the way her life unfolded and why that made her intriguing as a human. Like this stuff about her mom who is a famous actress or sort of famous actress. Working actress. Yeah.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Noel Coward, sort of muse. Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Was it Judy Campbell or Judy Campbell? So it's interesting, like seeing the photos of the two of them, I was googling. To me, Jane Birkin is like the physical ideal of what I would want to look like, but for her. Yeah, Yeah, I think she's beautiful. Like, I don't.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Oh, I think she's beautiful too. It's just I'm. I'm sort of surprised she's still gaming, you know, like this or you want to be super skinny and flat chested and.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Yeah, I mean, I'm already flat chested, but not, you know, I would never thought that.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Oh my God, Marissa. Well, I'll show you someday.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Okay. Well, you can. I sadly wear a D cup and I've always hated it. But that's a story for another time.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Yeah, we can do a boo. A body.

[Marissa Meltzer]

We could do a body dysmorphia episode oh, yes, I.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Yes.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I mean, every episode of Fashion People is a body.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Is a body episode. Yes.

[Marissa Meltzer]

But, you know, to bring it back to Jane Birkin actually is. There is a lot about her body. And I think it's really easy to look at her. She's so beautiful. And she had the sort of perfect body to wear clothes and of that kind of 60s and 70s era. And she felt super insecure about it. And then you see pictures of her mom, and her mom doesn't really look that much like her. Like, her mom was sort of more of like a golden age of Hollywood, 1930s kind of beauty. And so I think she always had this kind of insecurity that, you know, she was a late developer and, you know, that she was gangly, that she was so flat chested, that she was boyish. And, you know, and then those kind of translate into different things in her life, all the way down to aging and sort of, you know, not getting like her eyes done. Which I think it's tempting to either say she didn't give a shit about those things, but she did. It's just more like she was sort of like, I could maybe I'll just cover the mirrors. Or it was like a constant sort of conversation of, should I? I don't. And then she just never did. And I kind of think that's probably how many people age. It is for me, like today I'm not gonna get my eyes done. Although I constantly think maybe I should. And there might be a day when I book it and there. But I also might die having never done anything. Like, it's kind of, you know, I think a lot of people are, you know, there are people, there's a lot of people that, you know, are very public now that are very gung ho on all of that stuff. But I think most people are a little more like, can I afford it? Do I want a deal? Will I look better? You know, all that stuff.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Yeah. And there are these sort of parallel narratives. And some of that, to me, it kind of goes back and I don't know how deep we can get on this or how I can make it not convoluted, but it's this like Anglo Saxon versus French and those two worlds and that way of being like the British sort of. It all is connected. And I think the way of thinking of, like, how you address beauty, how.

[Marissa Meltzer]

You look, your relationship to pleasure. And I think actually in this kind of post Brexit era, it's even more pronounced. So I think that's a really Interesting point, and I think it's very true. You know, she grew up in a kind of upper, upper middle class family in England. And you know, it was, they were tight, but it was also filled with like a lot of unhappiness of like being sent to boarding school young and hating it and this kind of stiff upper lip and the sort of tail end of racial rations in this very abstemious sort of dark time in British history that I think is part of what, you know, propelled that like swinging 60s. But then she moved to Paris in 1968 for, for work, for a film role. But then she just never left. She had, her family was still in England. She threw a sort of divorce settlement, got a, had an apartment there. But I, you know, she was kind of back and forth in that she would visit, but she never lived there again and you know, died at 76. So she really went on the side of France. And I also think one thing that's so interesting about her life is that she sort of fully embodied the swinging 60s youthquake. But then she moved to France and then fully embodied sort of the louche nightclub, you know, 1970s Yves Saint Laurent Paris, which is, I think it's rare for someone to kind of embody both times in different countries.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Well, especially because she. If you asked a random 22 year old on TikTok is Jane Burke in French or English, they would say she was French because she embodied capital, French girl style. And if you think of someone like Francois Hardy who was in kind of, if you look when you are researching this stuff, when you're 15 years old, she comes up a lot too. Like Jane Birkin was way more famous. I wanna get into that, but really quickly. The thing that came up for me was interestingly, Kristin Scott Thomas because she has, she's almost the opposite. I mean, obviously not the same, not a style icon, but is an actress who obviously actually has really great style. But I always find her fascinating. She's very British to me, but she moves really well in French.

[Marissa Meltzer]

She speaks French in French films. Charlotte Rampling is another really good example.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Yeah, but the thing, the two cultures are so different and why do you think Jane Birkin was able to make that transition, especially back then? Because it was pre European Union, there wasn't as much mixing. Like you go to France pre Eurostar. Yeah, exactly. You go to France now and everybody speaks English and there's people from all over Europe at least, but really all over the world. And there's no. It's changed so much in the last.

[Lauren Sherman]

15 years in particular.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

But at that time it was. They were worlds away.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah. Like, I don't think there was probably a McDonald's, for example, in France at that point or sort of this, you know, now you go to Europe, but, you know, really Paris in particular, there's, you know, five guys burgers. There's, you know, there's just so much familiarity in kind of international chains. And. Yeah, it really wasn't the case then. It really was not the case when I was there in college in the late 90s either. So, yeah, that's absolutely changed. I think, you know, it's hard because France and Paris in particular, I think, is a hard culture to break into because people. Because, like, Paris is so the center of the country, so that it's not just, you know, you're not going to move away for different industries. They're all based there, all the great universities. Universities are there. So you can really be born there and make friends in grade school and just have those people in your life for the rest of your life. It's not, you know, people aren't moving around for jobs, for example, the same way they are in the US because, you know, things are located in different places and. Yeah, so I think it can be really hard to break into. You know, most of my French friends are either maybe half American or they're married to a foreigner or, you know, they're Americans who move there or, you know, or whatever. There's something about them that's sort of other and outsider y. And yeah, Birkin really got accepted in. I think that part of it was that she started dating Serge Gansborg right away, and he is kind of, you know, the. One of the most famous people in the country. He was sort of like, there. I don't. I always say he's like a combination of like, Bruce Springsteen and Phil Spector and like Barbara Streisand, like this kind of Bob Dylan, this sort of like, troubadour that, you know, represents kind of the national identity. And so she was with him a long time. That probably helped kind of make her accept. But I also think she just had this kind of, like, willingness to just go full French and embrace it. But also she wasn't trying hard because she still had this. This heavy accent. She wasn't pretending to be this kind of perfect French woman. You see often in Paris these expats who are trying to be better at being Parisian than native Parisians. And it's kind of. I get it, but it's kind of ridiculous.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Yeah, Yeah, I think it's both are all are difficult. I lived in the UK in college and for two years after in London.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Obviously, I imagine it's the same thing. Right.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Like it was really hard. And now again, it's different now because there are more and let's see what happens post Brexit. But everybody's friends from when they, from when they were five because they all went to school together. These are very provincial places in some ways and like proudly provincial and in.

[Marissa Meltzer]

A way that's kind of protective.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

There is this. Yes. And there is the aristocracy element of it and the classic bit like you talking about her being like, it's not like they had a ton of money, but they were upper, upper middle class. Like, it's not about how much money you have in, in England, it's about what family you're from.

[Marissa Meltzer]

And so yeah, there was some aristocracy. Her mom was friends with Churchill's daughter and was a roommate with her. You know, there was.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

She.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah, she grew up around all these kinds of rich people and then sort of seamlessly went into being friends with all these kind of famous people casually. Her brother did a lot of work with the Beatles, so she was just sort of casually friends with them. You know, that kind of classic like rich it girl character where, you know, she's just always been connected.

[Lauren Sherman]

This September at Hauser and Worth in New York, Ambera Wellman will present Darkling, a suite of absorbing otherworldly oil paintings. Motivated in part by her upbringing in rural Nova Scotia, her compositions offer complex entanglements between animals and humans, the organic and the man made. Exploring paintings role in the midst of the climate crisis. In this new body of work, Wellman engages subjects ranging from funerary rituals and strip clubs to compositions that defy genre even as they draw upon and celebrate the painterly innovations of such historical masters as Goya and Courbet. And Beryl Wellman's inaugural exhibition at Hauser and Wirth, Worcester street was will coincide with the presentation of new works by the artist entitled 1000 Emotions at Company Gallery at 145 Elizabeth street in New York. Visit houserworth.com for more information and visit darkling at 134 Worcester street and 1000 Emotions at 145 Elizabeth street in New York. Now through October 25th.

[Candice Dillard Bassett]

What's up, guys? It's Candice Dillard Bassett, former Real Housewife of Potomac, and I'm Michael Arsenault, author of the New York Times bestseller Date Jesus. And this is Undomesticated, the podcast where we aren't just saying the quiet parts out loud. We're putting it all on the kitchen table and inviting you to the function. If you're ready for some bold takes and a little bit of chaos, welcome to Undomesticated. Follow and listen to Undomesticated, available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

So let's talk personal style, and then let's talk about her as a style icon and what that means and all of that stuff. Where do you think the person. Do you think the personal style was just like, I'm British, I know about thrifting before people actually did that, and her just being, like, super confident. Do you think it was unique to her? Like, how is she buying this little basket and making that a thing that now all these girls have low auve?

[Marissa Meltzer]

I think that it's a combination. She definitely had that kind of British jumble thing where, you know, they were going to thrift stores and had this kind of, like, eccentric costumes, costumey element that, you know, the, the. The continent certainly didn't have. You know, there was. France was behind in that, you know, young women kind of dress like their mothers. Like, you know, they're wearing scarves and kind of, you know, smart shoes and smart outfits. And Britain, I think the rebellion kind of like in the US Came a little bit before it did to France. And so, yeah, it's that kind of like, long history of bohemians. Like, you know, the way that the sort of Bloomsbury set was. Was, you know, dressing up and stuff. So there was that element. And she was also from a theatrical family, so they were putting on shows all the time. So you had this. This probably element of, like, costuming yourself. And then, you know, as a teenager and into her early 20s, I think she was first just kind of trying to look cool and fit in and. And have be seen as attractive and interesting to guys and to cool girls. And she always thought she just sort of dressed like Gene Shrimpton or something like that. But I think eventually she sort of, you know, she had that inimitable thing where you just make it yourself. Like, that's why you can watch a hundred, you know, videos of how to dress like Jane Birkin. But it's pretty hard to nail it. I think that it was. She was wearing stuff that was authentic to her, things that she had picked up on. You know, her basket bag came from a market that was near the West End where she was, you know, in plays. And the, you know, espadrilles were things that she bought on vacation. And, you know, she liked her White T shirts a certain way with, like, the collar kind of, like, pulled and messed up. And so I think she just stuck to things that felt like her. And then, you know, as she moved and became French and got older, she also kind of picked and choose which designer she wore. She was friends with Saint Laurent, so she wore a lot of Saint Laurent. She. She was never a Chanel girl. She loved Paco Rabanne and wore that. She was kind of, you know, she kind of knew her look.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Yeah. Okay, so I want to talk about the Birkin bag specifically, also. And. And what you unearthed, because it's been covered so much. But. But let's talk about this idea of style icon specifically. And also.

[Lauren Sherman]

So I was thinking about.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

In my notes, like, a lot of the. It's interesting. Jean Seberg is also, like, someone who I think of in that era of. And she was American, obviously, but became famous for the Godard film in particular. But, like, there was also Catherine Deneuve, Brigitte Bardot. When I think of, like, style icon, and I close my eyes, I see those women. I see Jackie Kennedy. I see Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. I was trying to think who are women of color who are.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Not a lot. Put Josephine Baker a little bit, but that was more for her costumes. Yeah. Really whitewashed.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

So whitewashed back then. I think now, like, I think Rihanna will be the person who sort of is from our generation.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I think once you get into the later 70s, you get some of the, you know, amazing, like, black models that Saint Laurent used and some of the ones from Battle of Versailles and stuff like that. But it's also different when it's a model versus sort of a woman considered a style icon. Yeah, I think Rihanna. But, yeah, it's. It was, you know, if race, you know, is a fraught subject everywhere. But in France in particular, you know, it's very multicultural there, if you're there and you realize it. But then if you were to look at a lot of sort of the idea of Frenchness in the world and the way that it's marketed and sold to people, you would just think it's a bunch of sort of, you know, bourgeois women wearing hand me down Chanel and Hermes scarves, and they're white and they're skinny, and they, you know, live in Sangarmel.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Yeah. So why do you think she became such a quantity outside of the country? And especially because, like, most of the people who engage with her as an image are not very familiar with her work. And I think that this book that's a Part of what is interesting about it is that it is going to familiarize people with more than her running into the Hermes air on the plane and creating the Birkin or whatever?

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah, I mean, I, I think that she's. She was a bit odd in her fame. She sang, but she didn't have a particularly good voice. You know, she was very okay with kind of being this kind of quirky muse girl. I. Until I think she got older and she was sort of sick of being that person. But I think she was happy to kind of embody this. This carefree English girl in the continent, you know, oh, oops, I'm wearing this sheer dress. I had no idea you could see my underwear until the flashbulbs went off kind of thing. Like, she was. She was sort of savvy, I guess.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Do you think she was able to capitalize on her fame in a way that. In like the modern way we think about that? Like, if she was, I mean, she wouldn't exist now, if there's no one like that now, which is maybe something we can talk about. But do you think that she was able to like, get the most out of what she became known for her currency or what have you?

[Marissa Meltzer]

No. I mean, in a word, no. I think that, you know, it's. To start with the Birkin, if you think about it. I think it sort of came out the same year as Air Jordan and all of that. And look how much money Michael Jordan has made. But of course, those were. That was a broker deal and that, you know, fashion has this kind of history of, you know, you're inspired by someone. So I, I don't necessarily think she was robbed of that money, but if she could have used the fame to try to do some other version of the Birkin that she, you know, designed herself and sold or something like that. And I. Part of the challenge and I think what's interesting about her life and about writing this book was that there isn't this super typical narrative structure of like, okay, well, she, you know, found her artistic voice and then she became a famous actress all over the world and she won an Oscar and, you know, she came out with her own clothing line and, you know, that's. And she's, you know, blah, blah, blah. She kind of wanted things on her own, very specific terms. And so she was happy to play some more like, you know, Carnegie hall of her old music. She eventually did like a sort of a collaboration line with apc, a tiny one. She did a scent with Miller Harris, but, you know, kind of small and obscure. But I don't think she wanted to do those things. And I also don't think she was that interested in trying to be famous in America or even the uk. I mean she acted in very, very, very few English language things. And kind of, you know, the closest to like a big film would have been the Agatha Christie movies from late 70s and you know, those aren't that, they're not that big. You know, she again, she wasn't Kristen Scott Thomas, Charlotte Rambling, Juliette Binoche, Marion Cotillard, these like, you know, sort of bilingual women that go between cultures.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Was there anything.

[Lauren Sherman]

So while, while you were, I guess.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

After the book wrapped up, there was obviously the giant Birkin auction that you covered for the New York Times. But there has just been like in the last year and maybe this is also connected to the fact that she passed. But the Birkin and the secondhand market for the Birkin and Hermes bags in general. But obviously this is the most famous one. And I also feel like the Birkin for a while there was like a narrative that the Kelly was the like cool bag. If you're gonna buy a beat up Hermes, you might want to get a Kelly because it's a little more structured and I feel like the Birkin has sort of come back for. In the second hand market where people who.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah, I want a Birkin.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Yeah, I would love, you know, I, I love, I've almost bought a Kelly many times. They're beauty. You have a Kelly, right? You do.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I do. I have a really, I have like a 1950s color. But I would like, I love it. But yeah, I would like a Birkin that's also like the Kelly is great but it's quite, it's old and I, if I wore it every day, it would just keep falling apart. I've had it refurbished many times. So like I would love a Birkin that I could just beat up a little bit or just you know, wear every day. Yeah, I mean it's, it was so fascinating to me to think deeply about the Birkin partly cause she didn't seem to think about the Birkin bag all that much. You know, for most people like being on a plane and meeting the, you know, whatever he's called, like chairman or chief, you know, executive at Hermes. And having them make a bag for you would be like the biggest day of your life. And it was just something that just happened to her and, and you know, the bag grew very organically and steadily. It wasn't this kind of launched it bag the way that, you know, marketing happens now. And I think it's a bag that just symbolizes that people have made it, you know, that they have the money or the access or whatever to own one. And, you know, I thought about her bags and that original one so much. And then it, you know, after I was done, just after I was done writing it went for auction. So it was strange to be sort of thinking about something so much and then to actually see it in person. It was like, remember when the Goldfinch came out and that painting happened to be, I think, at the Frick in New York? And so it's weird to sort of envision something and see photos of it and then to actually, you know, it was kind of ghostly or something like that. And then to be in the room of the auction was fascinating because you also just see even though they brought in a lot of storytelling around Jane Birkin and the Birkin, you know, people are there because of Burke and Mania and Hermes and the resale market and because, you know, the Kardashians own a million of them. Like, I don't believe there was anyone really from Hermes. There was no one from Jane Birkin's family. You know, that it's not their narrative anymore. I mean, at least in the auction was not in Hermes narrative. So I think, you know, you kind of see how divorced it is from her, for better or worse. I think it must be odd to have the kind of most famous thing about you and your name belong to something else.

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[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Do you think that there is someone like what you are describing to me is an artist who had put a lot into the world and gave the world a lot and got back enough to like have an interesting life.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yes.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

But was not, she was not so.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Ambitious that she was trying to be the richest or most famous or, you know, award laden person, which is, it's almost incomprehensible in these times. Like, why didn't you want more? Why didn't she try to, you know, get more money, capitalize on herself? Why didn't she try to break through into, you know, why wasn't she like a Miramax star or something like that? Like, why didn't she try to become more famous in the UK or America? And I think that she had that kind of, I would say French thing where, you know, she valued work, life, balance, she cooked, she had like a nice but not overly fancy country house in Finisterre. She, you know, took vacations, she did her activism, she worked. But it, you know, she seemed to spend plenty of time with her kids and her grandkids and extended family and was very much there when her parents were sick and dying and when some of her partners were. So yeah, I think, you know, one unique part of the reporting of this book is she had diaries that I had access to. And so you see kind of a, you know, a version of how she's spending her time. And she spends plenty of time touring or filming or whatever, but she also spends a lot of time just having life, which is really hard to understand as someone like me who has just no work life balance and also lives in a culture increasingly where you are supposed to try to be the best or ascend or get more money or fame or whatever. I'm, I'm certainly not immune to it.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Well, that, that is the thing. It's, it's like in so many ways, I just don't know if people like that exist anymore.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Like, I don't know if they do either. I mean, she certainly would have had, you know, even her kids have like paid ad campaigns and stuff like that. Like, they're living a little more of a traditional, you know, fame life for sure. You know, and yeah, there's something about it that I find really aspirational. Like, in some ways she was the perfect level. I mean, she was much more famous in France. She was very like, stopped everywhere. But she also lived in normal neighborhoods and, you know, went to cafes and farmers markets and was always seen walking around with her bulldogs. And yeah, like, Paris is kind of like New York, but maybe even more so where famous people just live there and are seen and just kind of can kind of live a life. And she had that. And. Yeah. Had nice vacations and wore nice clothes, but it wasn't the most.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Yeah, I mean, it is related to. I think it's all related to if we wanted to kind of walk it back to her personal style and why that's been so influential. I don't think there are people like that anymore either, where they just look effortlessly. They always say the end of cool and no one's cool anymore. And I think that's kind of true. Yeah, it is kind of true. But again, it's this idea of, like, we are also connected all the time and getting information all the time and striving all the time and all of it happening all the time, that it's actually quite hard to make a real impression on anyone. And she had this ability to sort of take hold. And that is. I think that's what. To me, that's what the book is about. Like, this kind of person that doesn't really exist anymore. And again, you're showing, not telling. You're not saying that we need to go back to that. But I think it's a great example of how to live a life.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah. Contentment. Having. Yeah. Being okay with sort of enough. And also, I think the book leaves a lot of openness. Like, you can. There's things about her that are kind of annoying. Like, you can find her sort of manic pixie dream girlish and sort of cloying if you wanted to. And she certainly had kind of, you know, relationships with people who are complicated and, you know, enmeshed in. In scandal and the French Me Too movement. She wasn't, you know, this kind of perfect paragon of empowerment or feminism or anything. But I think that's also part of why she was cool. She was a real person who was complicated and made bad decisions and looked cool. But also sometimes, you know, showed up in public looking like she just woke up and, you know, was, like, walking her dog just like anyone else. And, yeah, we just don't have that. Things are so manicured I mean, I think now I always think about how, you know, Hollywood, like, junkets and film premieres have become this total costume party. It's like my bete noir, like, we're wicked. So I wear pink and you wear green. Or, like, everyone at Frankenstein is wearing brown. Or, you know, everyone Wednesday is wearing these kind of goth outfits. And it's gone from wearing what you want to, like, getting dressed by a designer, to now, like, you have to get dressed by the designer here, you know, have a relationship with, and they have to make something custom in the theme of Frankenstein. Like, it's just. It's so kind of embarrassing. I understand all the economic and fame reasons behind it, but she is the opposite of that. You know, you see her at can sometimes wearing jean, like jeans and a La Mer shirt and Converse, and sometimes dressed up in like a one shoulder Azaro or something. It just seems like she was just looking and acting the way that she wanted, the way that many of us do, where sometimes you have something cute to wear and you feel like dressing up and you look cute, and sometimes you're like, I. The only way I'm gonna do this is if I don't have to make an effort. And I think that's so relatable. And I think that's also why she has this kind of coolness. Like, it wasn't brokered, it wasn't styled, it wasn't perfected, it wasn't commercialized in the way that we have now, which, you know, I think it's probably only get worse. I keep thinking it can't get worse, but it's just so whatever the opposite of effortless is, you know?

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, look, the pendulum, we like to say, always swings. But I think the reality of it is everything economically. Yeah, yeah. It's. I think 100%. It's not fun anymore. And what is happening is that people are less interested in those things because they're becoming too pat. Yeah. So we'll move on to other things in our rapidly changing culture. Marisa, I have one final question for you.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Okay.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

You spent a lot of time in France during this period. You have been researching and writing this book for what, two years or year and a half? What have you bought? What were you inspired to buy?

[Marissa Meltzer]

This is a good one. I always say my greatest accomplishment is that I never got bangs. So that. That's not. I never cut my hair into bangs. Not that I would, because my hair just wouldn't work that way. Okay. I. I definitely bought a healthy amount of Alaia, which is not necessarily something that Jane Birkin wore. But I did go to the Al Alaia archives as part of my research. And I just really love what's going on with Alaia now. And I'm into the knitwear in particular.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

It's great.

[Marissa Meltzer]

It's so good. What else I bought, you know, I always buy have as much Chanel as I can afford. So, you know, there were a lot of, like, ballet flats purchased that's probably the most, the most clothing item Jane Birkin and I have in common. There's a lot of ballet flats with Levi's kind of happening. And the last thing I bought was actually in New York, but it has kind of like a Jane Birkin frisson, which is this Alberta Ferretti, probably like early aughts, late 90s black skirt that has beading and kind of silk on it that looks. It looks like me. It's kind of slinky. I wore it with like a T shirt. But it looks like something that Jane Birkin would have worn in like the late 60s, early 70s, a little bit. It's kind of my homage.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

I love it and I love you.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I love you too.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

You're the best.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I'm so happy to be.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

Congratulations on everything and I'm really excited everybody read the book. Like the one thing I found during book tour stuff, and you've done this many times over now, is that when you're talking, people sort of want to go through the entire book. People should read this book. Hopefully they'll read it before they listen to this conversation. But it really was, I would say it augments your life. It like adds to your life. It's not something that you're gonna be like, I knew all of this stuff. You're not gonna know a lot of this. And I think that's what's interesting. If you're interested in her even just as a fashion person. Yeah, we didn't use it.

[Marissa Meltzer]

There's a lot of deep Vogues and Marie Claire's and Elle's from the seventies.

[Candice Dillard Bassett]

It's.

[Marissa Meltzer]

It's fun. I. The feedback I've loved the most, just from the people that have read early is like googling outfits, you know, like that I described, which is huge compliment.

[Podcast Host (Fashion People)]

I love that. Thank you again, Marissa, and good luck.

[Lauren Sherman]

With the tour and I'll see you soon. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey. JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Tabador, Limu Emu and Doug.

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[Lauren Sherman]

Is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

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[Marissa Meltzer]

Only pay for what you need @libertymutual.com savings very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.