Love Wins

Summary

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Fashion People – “Love Wins”

Host: Lauren Sherman (Puck)
Guest: Pamela Love (Jewelry Designer, Author of Infinite: A Tarot Deck and Guidebook)
Release Date: October 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Lauren Sherman sits down with acclaimed jewelry designer Pamela Love to discuss her career journey, the evolution of the indie jewelry scene, the challenges of running a namesake brand, and her foray into the world of tarot with her new deck and guidebook, Infinite. The conversation weaves together themes of personal identity, creative growth, and the spiritual side of fashion, culminating in a live, on-air tarot reading.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Pamela Love’s Origins in Jewelry

[08:10–11:22]

• Pamela started her jewelry line in her apartment in the late 2000s, formalizing the business after a few years (“I think maybe 2009, we moved into an office space. But yeah, we were active from 2008, which is crazy.” – Pamela Love, 08:13).
• Her background includes working at Barneys as women’s trunk show coordinator, which helped her understand the inner workings of the high-end jewelry market.
• Mentored in the Diamond District, learning technical aspects before developing her distinctive brand.

Navigating the Fashion & Jewelry World

[11:22–16:43]

• The crucial experience at Barneys gave her insider knowledge, although the store initially rejected her early work.
• Pamela’s pieces became iconic of late 2000s “downtown” fashion, alongside designers like Fenton/Fallon and Eddie Borgo—a time she describes as both competitive and creatively exciting.
• She reflects on not fully appreciating her meteoric rise while it was happening:

  “You’re so in it when you’re in it. … I wish, going back, I could have appreciated it more … but I was just so in the work.”
  — Pamela Love [17:05]

The Trials of a Namesake Brand

[18:43–23:02]

• Discusses the personal challenges of having her name on the brand, making business struggles feel existential:

  “Having a namesake brand is really hard because it becomes your sense of self, it becomes your self-worth.”
  — Pamela Love [18:43]

• Burnout led her to sell a majority stake in her company:

  “I can’t do this. I can’t be the Creative Director and the CEO and the CFO … I’m a maker, I’m not a business person.”
  — Pamela Love [21:03]

• Post-sale, she learned to separate her identity from the company while maintaining control over its creative direction.

Brand Evolution & Creative Collaborations

[23:02–29:00]

• Lauren notes Pamela’s strategic use of unexpected collaborations to keep her brand thriving (e.g., Rent the Runway, clothing design).
• Pamela emphasizes selecting projects that “reflect what me and my team are interested in … evolving, but always with a through line.” [26:09]
• Describes challenges when private equity partners pushed for safe, commercial products (“If I have to hear about hoop earrings from brands that sell things for $49.99, I never want to hear about that again.” — Pamela Love, 28:32).
• Recently “uncoupled” from those partners, allowing her creativity and the brand’s artistry to flourish again.

Connecting with Clients & Building Real Relationships

[30:06–33:23]

• The brand’s growth has focused on fine jewelry and engagement rings—a highly personal, client-driven business. Pamela has learned to embrace customer interaction, overcoming initial imposter syndrome:

  “I always felt a little … I came from the punk scene growing up … I think it took me a really long time to be comfortable with who I was and comfortable sitting in a room with people who were different than me…”
  — Pamela Love [31:41]

• Lauren notes how Pamela’s brand remains authentic:

  “I can close my eyes and see it—and also, you are still the same person.”
  — Lauren Sherman [33:35]

Launching a Tarot Deck & Guidebook

[34:05–39:06]

• Pamela introduces Infinite, her tarot deck created in collaboration with longtime design partner Chris Manesky.
• Their creative synergy emerged during a Zac Posen show (“We were so connected as people … we both came from the music scene, like punk music scene in our small towns.” — Pamela Love, 35:12).
• The deck took five years to complete, grounded in both her personal passions and longstanding brand aesthetics.

Tarot as Introspection & Therapy

[39:06–45:14]

• Pamela’s relationship with tarot began at age 14, serving both as a tool for self-reflection and a way to connect with others:

  “It’s more therapy than it is fortune-telling, at least for me … I wanted to create something people could use as a tool for introspection.” — Pamela Love [40:44]

• She underscores that tarot’s real power is in guiding attention:

  “Ultimately, yes, you do know the answer, and the cards are just helping you highlight what it is you need to focus on or change.”
  — Pamela Love [45:14]

• Lauren observes, “It’s like a consultant … helps you frame things in a way that is easier to manage…” [44:13]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On running a namesake brand:
  “The brand’s success was so important to my sense of self-worth, and so I think that pressure also made it kind of intense.”
  — Pamela Love [18:43]

• On learning to separate from the business:
  “I was able to start to separate myself from the business in a way where … things are gonna happen in my life and things are gonna happen in its life, and they don’t … mean the same thing.”
  — Pamela Love [21:03]

• On tarot’s function:
  “You really do pull the cards you’re meant to pull. They’re teachers. Pulling for yourself is the most powerful.”
  — Pamela Love [40:44]

• Lauren on fashion advice:
  “You think it’s gonna be, like, one day and then you’re back to normal, but it’s not. …It’s never going back.”
  — Lauren Sherman [25:21]
  (On postpartum body image)

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Timestamped Highlights

| Timestamp | Segment | Key Topic | |------------|---------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:15 | Pamela’s non-traditional entry | Early jewelry design, Barney’s, DIY approach | | 13:00 | Journey after Barneys rejection | Moving to art, finding early accounts like Colette, Opening Ceremony | | 15:55 | Navigating the indie/jewelry scene | Downtown designers, CFDA/Vogue competitions, being “crunchy hippie punk” | | 18:43 | The emotional toll of a namesake brand| Identity challenges, burnout, business sale | | 23:02 | Surviving industry change | Collaborations, creative adaptation in a tough retail climate | | 28:31 | Breaking up with PE investors | Rediscovering creative freedom | | 31:41 | Embracing the client relationship | Imposter syndrome, punk roots, making fine jewelry personal | | 35:12 | Creative synergy with Chris Manesky | Long working relationship and the tarot deck’s genesis | | 40:44 | Tarot and emotional self-care | Using tarot as therapy, not fortune-telling | | 46:20 | On-air tarot card reading | Pamela draws the “Eight of Pentacles” for Lauren |

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Show’s Tone & Dynamic

Lauren and Pamela keep the conversation witty, knowledgeable, and refreshingly candid—sharing industry truths, personal hardships, and laugh-out-loud stories (like mistaken text identities and LA mom life). The dialogue is unpretentious and rooted in a sense of community and mutual respect.

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Live Tarot Reading (51:00–50:52)

• Pamela reads for Lauren, pulling the Eight of Pentacles (career growth, mastering new skills, staying open).
• Parallels arise between a previous reading and Lauren’s current career momentum, underscoring tarot’s role as reflective guidance.

“You are about to learn new things, and you need to take them with an open heart and open mind. … Be open to learning and putting in the work to master this. And if you do, you will flourish …”
— Pamela Love [48:11]

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Final Thoughts

• Pamela’s journey offers a rare, behind-the-scenes look at surviving—and evolving—in both fashion and personal growth.
• Her embrace of introspection, creativity, and authenticity is evident both in her jewelry and her tarot work.
• Lauren’s enthusiasm, familiarity, and shared experiences make for a lively, insider-focused conversation with broad resonance.

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For more on Pamela Love’s work:
Check out Infinite: A Tarot Deck and Guidebook – and, as Pamela reminds, “be open,” whether in creativity, business, or self-discovery.

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Transcript

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[Lauren Sherman]

Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show is Pamela Love, author of the Infinite A Tarot Deck and Guidebook. We're talking fashion in the era of indie sleaze, the jewelry biz, and we even get a little woo woo with a card reading. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical, and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, the art world, and much more. If you're interested, listeners of Fashion People, get a discount Just go to Puck News Fashion people to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. Hope you're having a great week. I'm in Nashville. I've been here for the last couple of days to check out the new Hermes store. Axel Dumas, the global CEO and a bunch of other executives flew out for this and hosted us at a cocktail party at the store last night. So thank you all for that. It was really, really nice. It's been a very fun trip. I'm a big fan of Nashville and it was great to spend time with the Hermes team. Just at FYI, Puck paid for my accommodations and flight. Love press trips, but not press trips on this job. Paid press trip days are have been over for about, I don't know, 10 years. I forget the I think the last one I went on might have been an Hermes one, but that's a story for another day. Anyway, I'll be writing about my experience here more soon. In other news, check out Thursday's line sheet. I had some updates on some HR moves at WSJ. Roy Satron left the business. I think we'll hear from her soon, but I have a little bit of detail on that. I also did a Where are they now? Line sheet edition which is very fun. If you want to know where Jose Nevis is, I have some ideas. The ex Farfetched founder and CEO, if you didn't know. Also I reviewed the Victoria's Secret fashion show and I also the big story was about the shakeup at Vestiere Collective which their CEO left last week. Lots of stuff going on. Main competitor to the Real Real, especially in Europe. You should read the piece. But the tdlr. Is that what it is? No. Tldr. So why we don't use these acronyms in in line sheeter on a Puck ever? They're banned. Is that people love shopping secondhand, but it remains a tough business. So anyway, check out the check out the email for that one. It's really interesting. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Pamela. I am a big fan of getting my cards read and going to psychics. I do it like once every couple of years. It's like feels like a year of therapy in one session. I think it's really fun if you don't take it too seriously. So don't take it too seriously, but enjoy it and buy her deck. I have played with it a bit myself and have done subsequent readings. I need to stop, but I also need to stop this. We'll talk soon. Pamela Love welcome to Fashion People.

[Pamela Love]

Thank you thank you for having me.

[Lauren Sherman]

What did you have for breakfast this morning?

[Pamela Love]

I had a little bit of scrambled eggs off my son's plate and smoked salmon toast.

[Lauren Sherman]

Ah, that's my dream breakfast.

[Pamela Love]

That's more than I normally have for breakfast, but I'm traveling, so I had a hotel breakfast.

[Lauren Sherman]

I also had a similar. I. My son and I shared scrambled eggs and my husband is celiac, so I am as well. Well, you need to get these. Do you know this capello? This. This gluten free.

[Pamela Love]

They make pasta.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Pamela Love]

Like ravioli.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And it's all like almond based, so it's very caloric and high protein. If you need energy, that's also very.

[Pamela Love]

Good for you versus, like the rice pasta, which is great for you.

[Lauren Sherman]

Agreed. Yes. So he and I split this like cheddar chive biscuit that they have.

[Pamela Love]

Oh, yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's very. Because I usually don't eat them because I let. I want to save them for my husband, but my husband's.

[Pamela Love]

And you also like real gluten, probably, so.

[Lauren Sherman]

I love gluten.

[Pamela Love]

I have a rule that I'll still eat sourdough.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think that's fair.

[Pamela Love]

It doesn't upset me in the same way. It's fermented. So I had it on sourdough this morning. But yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

So good. So good. So you and I have gotten to know each other better because we both live in Los Angeles. And also I text you a lot because one of my best friends is named Pamela Lev. L E V Shout out and living in la. I do voice to text text messages. I'm in the car for 45 minutes. All I do is I roll calls and text people. And I'm constantly texting Pamela Lev being like, hey, girl, blah, blah, blah, blah, bl and you're like, this is Pamela Love. And thank you for the invite.

[Pamela Love]

I love getting your Pamela Love text. I also like that when I sometimes text you, you think for a minute you're talking to Pamela Love.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Pamela Love]

And then you're like, oh, wait, no, this makes more sense. This text makes more sense now that I realize it's coming from Pamela Love.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. It's. It will be about an industry thing. And I'm like, why is Pam asking me about this and or that?

[Pamela Love]

Like hair. The hair tree.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. We've also bonded over our trials as curly hair girls.

[Pamela Love]

Very, very frizzy curly hair over here.

[Lauren Sherman]

It looks beautiful. So thank you. Let's rewind. And we're here to talk about your awesome book. But I wanted to first kind of chat about you and who you are and obviously have been interacting with you for the last like 15 years. You have this jewelry line that you've had since when? Late 2000s, 2007.

[Pamela Love]

Oh my God, can you believe that?

[Lauren Sherman]

It's amazing.

[Pamela Love]

But I don't even count, like the first year or two was like in my apartment. Like, I don't, you know, like, I think it really sort of became more of like a formal business that actually I think maybe 2009, we moved into an office space. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, we were, we were active from 2008, which is crazy.

[Lauren Sherman]

How did you get into the jewelry business? Because it's not, it's not an easy business to get into or be in.

[Pamela Love]

Well, so when I first started, I was actually working at Barney's, if you can believe that. I was the women's trunk show coordinator. That was a job amazing. And it was actually a great job. And I had a friend that worked with me at Barney's and we were both like jewelry freaks and we loved making things. I mean, I can rewind further back, like, but, you know, like took metalsmithing classes in high school. Glassblowing was always like a very jewelry obsessed, hands on person. I always made jewelry. I always made my own jewelry growing up. But when I was working at Barney's as the women's trunk show coordinator, I became friends with another woman. We were like both in our mid-20s and she was also very into jewelry. And we decided we wanted to start something together. So we started like a project together and, you know, made some pieces, went out to some stores. And shortly after, she decided she was going to move away from New York and didn't really want to continue. And that was fine because we hadn't really gotten off the ground. But like, I really had like, like I was like, I want to see this through. I want to do this. So at that point, you know, I just kind of went on my own. I definitely didn't have the experience or the skills I needed. I ended up apprenticing in the diamond district for a little while, working, you know, with really straightforward stuff. Tennis bracelets, solitaire, engagement rings, you know, working for other people. And I was very lucky that early on I just, I think I had the right aesthetic for that time. And you know, I had friends that were borrowing it, wearing it, using it in shoots, and it just sort of like right place, right time, right aesthetic, right people wearing it. And we were able to turn it into a. Or I, I say we because now my name is like a company, so it's, like, sometimes hard to separate. I was able to sort of turn it into a business. I had no business plan. No. Any of the things that I now know are necessary to start a brand. You know, it was very different was the.

[Lauren Sherman]

Because the thing about Barney's and you being there is that that was also sort of mecca for fine jewelry and independent jewelers in particular. And it was sort of like, if you could make it at Barney's, you could have a business. And. And also just so much expertise around jewelry. Like, I think about the publicist Cindy Krupp, who ended up who I'm sure you've worked with on.

[Pamela Love]

Yeah, she was our publicist at one point, for sure.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Yes. And she was there. She got her start at Barney's in the jewelry department.

[Pamela Love]

I didn't know that.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, she was the PR person.

[Pamela Love]

Okay.

[Lauren Sherman]

Got it for jewelry. So I think. I mean, that part. I'm sure she'll message and fact check me, but. But I know she worked there. And so I think, like, she's great.

[Pamela Love]

She's great.

[Lauren Sherman]

She's so great. But I. But was seeing how that operated or even just like, getting the. Getting the appointment to talk to the buyer, did you feel like having the Barney's connection gave you a little sense of how that world operated?

[Pamela Love]

It definitely did. They rejected us initially. The first line that I had with my friend, who was actually the fine jewelry specialist, which was the. They were like, this isn't for us. And we were like, okay, fine. So I actually, you know, after I sort of, you know, separated and started on my own, I left Barney's. I. I ended up working as a painting, as Francesco Clemente's painting assistant, which.

[Lauren Sherman]

I. Oh, my God.

[Pamela Love]

Very long time. And I went off on my own and started the jewelry brand while working for Francesco. And I didn't go back to Varney's for a very long time. I just kind of felt that my. I was just. I had a very specific aesthetic. And, you know, like, our first accounts were, like, Colette and Opening Ceremony and even, ironically enough, Bergdorf Mends. Bergdorf Mends was one of my first accounts.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, wow.

[Pamela Love]

So, you know, it wasn't for a few years until we were about back in the Barney's fold, and then that's where we were. And that was my main account until the end. You know, they were like our wonderful home. But it took me a second to go back to them and even present to them because, you know, I was like, reject. I Felt rejected. And even though that was, like, a different project and it didn't fully represent me, it was a collaborative effort. I still felt insecure and rejected and like. And also, like, it wasn't necessarily the right aesthetic for them.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Pamela Love]

At that time, it eventually did, you know, once. You know, it did, but it took me a second to have the confidence, I think.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. So you came up in a time, like, first of all, your aesthetic really did fit with the fashion of the time. So, like, girls would wear your stuff with Alex Wang T shirts or whatever, for sure. And, like, it felt like, you know, you were really a part of this downtown thing. And there was. At the same time, there was a group of downtown jewelry designers. And also, I think that Dana. It was Dana, right? Who? Fenton Fallon. She lived uptown. I think so. But she was part of this, too. It was like, Fenton Fallon, Pamela Love, Eddie Borgo. You all had very different aesthetic and a different approach.

[Pamela Love]

But, like, they were all hard. They were edgy. They felt. They felt tough.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I'd say yours had something like the sun and the moon and the tarot in it. Even back then, it was more.

[Pamela Love]

It was a little more. Mine was a little more crunchy and a little. It was like. Theirs was a little more straightforward, glossy punk, and mine was, like, a little more like, I don't know, hippie punk.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Like Stevie Nicks. A little more.

[Pamela Love]

A little more Stevie Nicks mixed into mine.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. So what was it like? Because you were also like a cfda, darling. You were in. That time in American fashion was so fascinating. What was it like to come up through that and then you've somehow managed. I mean, it's almost 20 years old. Like, you somehow managed to stay in business, which is not easy, given.

[Pamela Love]

And looking at, like, what happened to so many designers, not just in jewelry, but even in Ready to Wear from that period, you know?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I mean, Barney's alone. I remember. I don't know.

[Pamela Love]

Barney's is not in business.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, I remember. I don't remember. I don't know what your deal with them was, but there was so much stuff in the jewelry department that it wasn't great. No. And it. And, like, it was getting discounted. And I remember other retailers were sort of helping with it. They would, like, buy some of the stuff and, you know, like, there was just all this stuff that the other retailers were doing to sort of support the jewelry designers while their stuff got cleaned out of Barney's, which is just.

[Pamela Love]

We luckily didn't have any markdowns, but we There was some issues.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it was, it was.

[Pamela Love]

It hurt us a lot. And it was a business that we struggled to replace because it's a very special. It's very special. A very special customer. Yeah, but. But what was it. What was it like at that time? And how did I stay in business for all these years? So I guess going back to the first part of the question, you know, I don't think I even realized at the time, like, how spectacular of a time it was. You know, you're so in it when you're in it, and it's very competitive between all the CFDA stuff and the Vogue stuff. And just like, you're, like, you said you listed some brands that were, you know, having the moment at the same time I was having the moment. I think that was always tough for me. I was always like, oh, I'm not as good as they are. You know, I struggled with that. Yeah. And so I think sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees, especially when you're young. So I was so in it, in the day to day in like the work of it. And I'm like a beast when it comes to creating. I just, I was just in it all the time. I just wanted to make jewelry, wanted to make photos, wanted to make crazy presentations, you know, So I was just so in the creation of it all that I don't think I appreciated or was able to step back enough to be like, this is so weird and cool. Like, did you ever think that this is what, you know, it would be like? So for me, I think that I wish, you know, going back to that time in New York, that maybe I could have, like, appreciated it more or had like some more moments of like, this is awesome, you know, But I was more like, I have to finish this and I have to finish this and I have to get this done. And you know that, you know, you're an ambitious person, I'm sure, and successful, ambitious woman. I'm sure you get that.

[Lauren Sherman]

I feel.

[Pamela Love]

Yeah, but. And I think for me, you know, having a namesake brand is really hard because it becomes your sense of self, it becomes your self worth. And you also. It's so tied to you in this way that I think it's not if you like, you know, I know that sounds silly, but if, like, I called it like sh. Doodle doodle, maybe I would have felt less pressure. But it was like my entire being was. I felt on the line. It was this brand. The brand's success was so important to my sense of self worth. And so I think that pressure also made it kind of, you know, intense.

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[Pamela Love]

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[Pamela Love]

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[Lauren Sherman]

I feel like you have evolved. I don't know, but how have you been able to manage through that? Because I feel like a lot of people do that in the fashion industry in particular, where. And I used to see it in media with like people, they work at a certain media company and they're like, oh, I could never leave because like, then what would I be?

[Pamela Love]

And it's like, that's my entire identity. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

How did you get through that?

[Pamela Love]

Well, there was a period in which I, I think I reached like a total burnout period. It was just so much work, so much stress. You know, the brand had some very nice, like, we had great successes. But with great success comes a lot of more pressure, more stress, more employees, more overhead. All these things that like, honestly, I'm a, I'm a maker. I'm not a business person. I, I think in, in a lot of ways at that time I was learning how to be a business person.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Pamela Love]

And I reached a point where I felt like, okay, I can't, I, I can't do this. I can't be the creative director and the CEO and the cfo and I have an amazing team, but I'm still like this, the senior business person, which is absurd because I'm, you know, a creative. So I ended up selling a majority stake in my company to a group that bought jewelry brands, invested in jewelry brands. And for better or worse, I think that at that time I was able to start to separate myself from the business in a way where I was able to just look at it as, this is a separate thing from me and things are gonna happen in my life and things are gonna happen in its life. And they don't necessarily mean, you know, if something bad happens in my personal life, it doesn't mean something. You know what I mean? It's like I was able to separate more. And in that time, you know, also the designs were evolving, the aesthetic Was evolving as I was evolving, you know, as a human being and a person. Like, who, you know is, like you said, it was a different time. Like, I'm not wearing Alexander Wang T shirts anymore. You know what I mean? So the brand itself was evolving. And what I liked, I wanted. While I was able to sort of separate myself more, I didn't want the aesthetic of the brand to separate from me as a person. I wanted to be able to still put forward what I thought, what I wanted to create. So I didn't. You know, I was continuing to move, but on a personal level, I was separating more and a thing.

[Lauren Sherman]

On a. On a little bit of it. That's. That makes a lot of sense. And I think the. I think the answer to so much of this stuff is, like, figuring out ways that you can still do the creative thing and making the business support that and not focusing so much on. You see this so much with creative people where the business, they need the help because either they need to sell it or they need more money or they need whatever, and then they end up just focusing more on the business, and the creative ends up being two minutes of it. But I've thought a lot of what you've done that's interesting is, like, interesting collaborations that people wouldn't expect. Like, you've done Rent the Runway, huge projects you've designed clothes. Like, you've done a lot more than just, like, a Target collab, which is perfectly fine. I don't know if you've done one, but I haven't.

[Pamela Love]

But I understand, yeah, that for a.

[Lauren Sherman]

While, I love the Collabs team.

[Pamela Love]

I mean, for the era I came from, that was it. Like, you wanted a Target collab. Remember? It was like, Target Club. Target club. Huge.

[Lauren Sherman]

And it was a good thing. But, like, honestly, how much?

[Pamela Love]

And I used to buy them. I used to be like, when I would go visit my mom in Florida, I'd be like, we have to go to Target. I have to buy the.

[Lauren Sherman]

Totally.

[Pamela Love]

I don't know.

[Lauren Sherman]

They still do them, and they're. And they're still fabulous. And. But yes, it was back then. It was like, the thing.

[Pamela Love]

Now I'm, like, more into the Uniqlo collabs.

[Lauren Sherman]

I mean, the Uniqlo collabs, they're so good. They're so good.

[Pamela Love]

They're so good.

[Lauren Sherman]

That guy is. He just wants to dominate the world. I love. I love it.

[Pamela Love]

He's definitely dominating my pants right now.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's true. You are very. Do you wear a lot of La Mer?

[Pamela Love]

You know, I Have some. And I love it, but, you know, I don't. I wouldn't say I wear, like, a ton of it, but I love it. I think after having Atticus, you know, I kind of. I'm still, like, trying to get back into my fashion mojo as, like a. Yeah, as like a postpartum body, you know?

[Lauren Sherman]

I understand, but I love La Mer.

[Pamela Love]

Yes. But my postpartum body is definitely in flux.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, you look great.

[Pamela Love]

Thank you. Likewise. And I think our kids are around the same age, so.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes, it's.

[Pamela Love]

You know, you think it's gonna be, like, one day and then you're. You're back to normal, but it's not.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, it's never going back.

[Pamela Love]

Don't say that, please.

[Lauren Sherman]

Although. No, no, I mean, I will say. I was just saying the other day to someone, I spent the last two months at home, so I weirdly had a lot of extra time and exercised a lot.

[Pamela Love]

I wish I would do that if I spent two months at home. Exercise helps, but you need to do it. I've been a little bit in a lull lately. You know, there's been a lot going on, so I think. But, yeah, I think I don't know what you were talking about before.

[Lauren Sherman]

Just, like, all the different projects you've done to sort of support the bit so that you can keep doing the creating.

[Pamela Love]

Yeah. I think for me, it always. It always has to be special and exciting and reflect what me and my team are interested in at the time, which is evolving, but always sort of has this, like, through line. And so I never want to. I don't know, like, I want to do interesting projects. I want to do weird collabs. I want to create interesting jewelry and other things outside of the jewelry space. You know, for me, I've always wanted to sort of push the envelope of what, you know, adornment is, what jewelry is. I would definitely say that, like, you know, there was, like, a period again after I sold the company where there was a lot of, you know, tension around that, you know, as you, I'm sure, have know from anyone you talk to who sells their company to private equity or to a group or to a. You know, it's not like, oh, now I have money and a CEO and I can make whatever the hell I want. Yeah. Like, there are business people who want to do what they want to do. So there was definitely a struggle for a few years to sort of accomplish what I would say is my highest level of creative output and vision for this brand.

[Lauren Sherman]

How were you able to Work through it without giving the nitty gritty details of the struggle.

[Pamela Love]

Well, we uncoupled a year and a half ago, and now we're able to explore what we want to explore. I have amazing partners who are a lot more creative and. Or I would say are very creative and are interested in doing something special. And, you know, it's not just like, oh, well, we have to make this much money and we have to sell this many hoop earrings and, you know, look at their hoop earrings and, you know, like, we don't.

[Lauren Sherman]

I don't.

[Pamela Love]

People aren't, like, constantly bringing up, like, you know, brands that I don't. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's different.

[Lauren Sherman]

They have nothing to do with.

[Pamela Love]

Yeah. Like, if I have to hear about, you know, hoop earrings, like basic hoop earrings from, like, brands that, you know, sell things for 49.99. Like, I never want to hear about that again. No. You know, no. So I have partners now who are incredibly creative and excited about doing things outside of the box. Yeah.

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[Lauren Sherman]

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[Lauren Sherman]

One question before we get into your book and what tarot has meant to you, because I think it's a really interesting. It actually might connect to the question I'm going to ask. It's about the client part of being a jewelry designer. So I am. I'm friends with you. I am friends with Danielle Sherman, I'm friends with Sophie Buhai. And have known all of you for a long time in different iterations of your careers. I know from Danielle, she does like a lot of pounding the pavement. Irene Neuorth the same thing for sure, in this new iteration of the business in particular. But, like, how much has the client facing stuff been important for you and is part of your relationship with them? You reading their tarot?

[Pamela Love]

So since Alex and Stephanie and I took the brand over, we have really focused on growing. Well, I wouldn't say we really focused, but we really found that there was a big interest in our fine jewelry and our engagement rings that had kind of been ignored for a few years. And so we really were excited to delve into that portion of the business. I love creating engagement rings, wedding bands, being part of people's lives in that way. And so we've just seen explosive growth in that space for us since we, you know, gave it attention and nurtured it. And that is a very client focused part of the business. I'm working with clients very personally. And then of course, you know, some of these clients, it just turns into an ongoing relationship in which, you know, they're getting a wedding band or an engagement ring or just a kind of custom piece and then they, you know, they come back regularly. And I love it. I love working with people directly. I would say I wasn't the best at it coming up. I think maybe I had a little bit of like an imposter syndrome. You know, I wasn't like one of those designers who came from a ton of affluence. And I know that, you know, a lot of that really, you know, people who are spending a lot of money on jewelry are often connecting with designers who are from a similar world. So I always felt a little, you know, I came from like, you know, I was in like the punk scene growing up and had a ton of tattoos and, you know, really wasn't like as polished, I would say. So I think it took me a really long time to be comfortable with who I was and comfortable sitting in a room with people who were different than me and knowing that they still respected me as a creator and were coming to me even despite maybe us not being exactly the same.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I can understand that. I mean, the jewelry business, a lot of it is like really rich people start jewelry brands because you have to have a lot of money to start a jewelry brand. And when it doesn't happen that way. And also being young, you started it when you were so young.

[Pamela Love]

And so I was so young, like 26 or 27. And I was just like. I think I was, like, wearing, like, fishnet stockings and combat boots. You know, like, you were always.

[Lauren Sherman]

So you. Like, the thing that I think is really good about your brand is I can close my eyes and see it. And also, you are still the same person. It's not like every.

[Pamela Love]

Not wearing fishnet stockings.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, no, no. I prefer the La Mer, but, yeah, now La Mer.

[Pamela Love]

You know, I'll take the row or some J.W. anderson over some fishnets with combat boots.

[Lauren Sherman]

Exactly. But I think you are so yourself. And so this is. This book. It feels. It's the Infinite Door, a Tarot deck and guidebook, which, unfortunately, my press review has not gotten here yet, but I'm looking through the. Oh, because if we were going to do the tarot read, you need. I need to have. Can you do them?

[Pamela Love]

I can do it virtually.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay, great. But the Infinite Deck and guidebook. And can you talk a bit about. So you worked with this artist, Chris Maniecki? Is that what you're saying?

[Pamela Love]

Manesky.

[Lauren Sherman]

Manesky and I were.

[Pamela Love]

You're gonna, like, die over this story. So Chris and I have worked together for, I don't know, since 2009. 10. I met Chris when I was designing the jewelry for Zac Posen's Runway show.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, my God.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Wow.

[Pamela Love]

He was a womenswear designer at Zac Posen, but he was literally the most. My God, my shirt's coming open, and I see that.

[Lauren Sherman]

I didn't see anything.

[Pamela Love]

You didn't see my. Okay. He was literally. We were so connected as people. We had so many of the same influences. We both came from, like, the, like, music scene, like, punk music scene in our, like, small towns. He's from Long Island. I was. I grew up in South Florida. We, like, liked all the same bands. We both played music. We were both interested in, like, the same movies and the same art. And I was like, how did you end up designing, like, women's gowns? He was like, dude, I don't even know, but here I am. And he was so talented, and he just. He can draw, he can paint. He's an amazing photographer. And we just ended up really becoming close friends. We ended up in a band together. He played guitar. I played the drums. Like, familial, you know? And at a certain point, and it was around the time that I was doing a collaboration with Opening Ceremony in Spike Jonze for Where the Wild Things Are, and I was, like, drowning. And he called me, and he was like, I'm leaving, Zach. Like, there's. It's not, like, hard feelings. I love Zach, but I need to, like, move out of, like, women's wear. It's not where I'm at. And I was like, I'm doing this project right now, and I'm drowning. Can you come help me? And I had a team at that time, but, like, we were doing a bunch of leather stuff, and that was new for me and Zach. And Chris was, like, really good with leather. He was, like a leather expert. We were doing. We were doing these, like, a crib, crazy headpieces for where the Wild Things Are. And.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, my God, that collaboration was so amazing.

[Pamela Love]

It was so fun. So he came on, and he was just supposed to come on for this project, and he just kind of, like, that was it. He never left. He became the design director for the brand, and we did everything together for a decade. And then, you know, once I sold the company, he, you know, he went off to explore other things, you know, painting, illustration, photography. But we still kept working together. You know, he was shooting for the brand all the time. And I had been wanting for years to create a tarot deck, and I originally was working on it with someone else, and it wasn't going well, and Chris was just like, let me do it. Like. And I. And there was a part. Like, to be honest, I had been wanting Chris to do it, but, like, I just. We just had been. You know, we kind of like, just had. He had just left Pamela Love, and I didn't want to be like, hey, do you want to do this giant project with me that's going to take five years of your life? But when he said, I'll take this giant project that's going to take five years of my life, I was like, amazing, because you and I share a brain. We literally shared an office for a decade. Like, we. Our walls were, like, plastered in our inspiration. And just like, my team at that point was like, we were all best friends, and we were all. It was so much creative synergy. And so he and I were just. We just had such a good time on this. It was a lot of work, and we're both, you know, true creatives, and, you know, we're not good at sticking to schedules and, you know, but we, you know, we somehow made it. We. We worked together to, you know, kind of create the ideas for these cards. He executed them so beautifully. And, you know, there's elements of the Pamela Love brand in it, obviously, but then it's also, like, elements of other things, elements of things that were inspiring to both him and I. For years, that maybe felt outside of the Pamela Love brand. So we didn't bring them in.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Why did you want to do this? What's your relationship to Tarot?

[Pamela Love]

So when I was 14, I got a tarot deck and a book on tarot. My mom was sending me to camp. I didn't want to go. It was like, you know, one of those camps where you're, like, in another state, living in a cabin. And right before I left, my mom took me to Borders, and she was like, okay, get some books for camp. And I got a tarot deck and a book on Tarot. I got the Rider Waite Smith deck, which is kind of like the most widely used deck. And I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with the imagery. I fell in love with the history of tarot. I fell in love with the way you can use it as a tool for introspection. Even at that age, I really felt that. And at camp, it became a great tool because I became very popular because everyone wanted me to read their cards. So I would normally say that I would have been a weirdo outsider. But I had tarot cards and I knew how to read them. So it was like a novelty, I guess.

[Lauren Sherman]

So what do you use them for? Like, what in your life? Like, because I actually just. I just did a session with someone that one of our mutual friends recommended for an hour that was like, tarot and also other stuff. And it felt like a big therapy session. I was like, maybe I could need to stop with therapy for a while. This was enough.

[Pamela Love]

It's more therapy than it is. I would say fortune telling, at least for me. And that's why I wanted to create this deck. I wanted to create something that people could use as a tool for introspection and sort of like a guide. What do I use it for? I have always used it at my darkest hours, which, you know, there have been a lot. As for all of us, they help you look at something from multiple angles. They help you dive in. You really do pull the cards you're meant to pull. And they're teachers. And sometimes I would read for myself. Sometimes if I was having a really hard time. I have close friends who are also tarot enthusiasts who I would ask to read for me. Even Francesco Clemente, who's so deeply into tarot, has given me some of the best readings of my life at some really dark times or hard times. But pulling for yourself really is the most powerful tool because you can do it at any time, and it's private. But I would if I was. You know, there were rough times. I had a. You know, I went through a divorce. I went through, you know, a bunch of things with my company, and the cards were really there for me, and I had all. And I. I just had always dreamed of creating something, you know, creating, you know, something that had my stamp on it.

[Lauren Sherman]

I want to do a quick reading with you, but before we do, do you think that I assume that the book that comes with the deck kind of shares? Do you think anyone can. Can learn this skill, or do you think you need to have a special, like, intuitive instinct?

[Pamela Love]

You have to be open to it, I would say. And you have to be able to read visual cues. So the cards have symbols and elements to them that kind of help you glean the understanding. The book has information. And I also encourage people if they're still unclear. Obviously, the Internet is a powerful tool, and you can really read a lot more in depth about every card if you're still feeling lost. But I feel that between the deck and the guidebook and the power of the Internet, anyone can really read tarot as long as you are open to it and not skeptical and not like, oh, this is stupid, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Like, then don't do it. You know, you have to have respect for it. But I do believe what's so special about it is you don't have to be. You don't have to be psychic. You don't have to have some special power. You just have to have respect for it and believe in it. And it's not. It's not a fortune teller. It's not going to be like, oh, tomorrow you're going to win the lottery, or tomorrow you're going to fall and hit your head. It's more nuanced than that. It's going to say something. Something in your life isn't right. And you probably have known for a long time that you have someone in your life that's not being honest. You know, it's a lot more nuanced.

[Lauren Sherman]

You know what I think of it as being similar to. For all the business side people who listen to our podcast who are like, I can't believe they're talking about Tarot. It's like a consultant. It's like vain.

[Pamela Love]

It's a very good consultant.

[Lauren Sherman]

It is literally. I remember once talking to Diane von Furstenberg, whose husband, Barry Diller, calls her Dion. So maybe I should also Dion. But Dion, about this thing that the CFDA did with bcbg and she said to me, this big project that they did to, like, kind of fix American fashion or whatever. I was doing a report on it for business of fashion. And she said to me, you know, it didn't tell us any. They told us what we all needed. We already knew. And that's what consultants do. And I feel like that's what a tarot deck does, like an. A psychic or anything. People think that people like to joke about this stuff, but the reality is we all. Our fate is sort of determined, and we all put it out in the world, and we can't really control anything. And what these types of. These exercises do is sort of helps you frame it in a way that is easier to manage for the most part, for sure.

[Pamela Love]

And I also think the cards are forcing you to examine things in your life, in your soul. So ultimately, yes, you do know the answer, but the card is kind of like hitting you on the head and going like, hey, hello. Look at this. You're not looking at it, but you know, you need to look at it. And this card is saying, like, you need to look at this. You need to deal with this. And so, yeah, ultimately you have these answers, and the cards are just, like, helping you to, like, highlight what it is you need to focus on or think about or change. And for me, at some of my hardest times, it really kept me going. Maybe that sounds silly to some people, but, like, you know, I'm. I'm hysterically crying and having the worst week of my life and feeling so drained, and I pull a card that gives me a sense of, you know, this isn't forever. And, you know, it helps.

[Lauren Sherman]

It totally helps. So, Pamela, I would like you to help me and do a quick reading. Can we do it?

[Pamela Love]

We absolutely can.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm sad that I don't have the deck here with me, but I. Oh, it's okay.

[Pamela Love]

I know it's coming in the mail to you, but there was a delay.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'll read my own after. After this.

[Pamela Love]

You can. I'm gonna do a one card pull with you.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay, perfect.

[Pamela Love]

So what I want you to do, so, like, obviously we're not in the same room, but I still feel that, you know, there's an energetic connection between us and there's energy through this. And I'm looking at you, and you're looking at me. I want you to, like, take a second, close your eyes, think about your life right now. If there's any questions that come up, you know, kind of focus on them. If there's something in Specific, you know, you can focus on that. You don't have to tell me anything. We can talk about it after if you want. I'm going to start shuffling. And when you feel like you would like me to stop, tell me to stop.

[Lauren Sherman]

Stop. Okay.

[Pamela Love]

I. I'm pulling the first card from the deck. Are you ready?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Pamela Love]

Okay. This is the eight of pentacles.

[Lauren Sherman]

What does that mean?

[Pamela Love]

I'm about to tell you. So pentacles and discs. So you know a little bit about tarot. Yes or no?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. Yes. I mean, I've had my cards read several times.

[Pamela Love]

So you know there are four suits, and the suit of pentacles is the suit that represents earthly possessions, wealth, money, material. I like your big smile.

[Lauren Sherman]

You're like, I'll tell, I'll tell you afterwards. What, why I'm smiling. But.

[Pamela Love]

So you've pulled the eight of pentacles, which represents apprenticeship, learning, and financial growth through this ability to learn new things and to take on new things and to take on teachers. So you are in an opportunity or a space in your life where you want to grow financially and with your career, you're in a pinnacle right now. And what this card is saying is you are about to learn new things, and you need to take them with an open heart and open mind. Be open to learning and putting in the work to master this. And if you do, you will flourish so beautifully. But you need to be open. The world is gonna present you with some teachers and an opportunity to learn and master some new things. Okay. But you have to take them on.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay. Open. Be open. I'm a pretty open person, but it feels. The reason I'm laughing is when I got my tarot read a month ago, the person told me I was going to get a large lump sum of money in October, November.

[Pamela Love]

Well, maybe. I don't see. I don't believe in those kind of readings. Those, like fortune telling readings. Yes, but that could be true if perhaps you're going to be presented with an opportunity in which you're going to learn a lot of new things and maybe there's a huge financial reward. Yeah, but the point of this card is apprenticeship, learning, learning, mastering. You're going to. I mean, I can already see it for you now. Like, look how much you've mastered in such a short period of time. Like, you really, like, become like a master of this new realm. And I think that's only going to continue.

[Lauren Sherman]

Got to stay open, stay open, keep those arms open and, and, and putting.

[Pamela Love]

In the work, the work of learning and Mastering.

[Lauren Sherman]

I gotta just put your head down. That's what I always say. Put your head down.

[Pamela Love]

So the cards are just kind of telling you what you know, right? Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's good, though, the pentacles. One came up in the other deck, though, which is interesting. Yeah.

[Pamela Love]

So you're on this kind of career journey because it also is about career. It's about finances. Career. You're on this career path right now.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Pamela Love]

And when the same suits come up or the same cards come up a lot in readings, it really is saying, like, this is your focus right now.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Pamela Love]

This is where you are, Pamela.

[Lauren Sherman]

I can't wait to get a full reading from you someday soon.

[Pamela Love]

Let's do that in la. Yes. I need to give you a full one.

[Lauren Sherman]

I also want you to meet Pamela Lev eventually.

[Pamela Love]

I know. Can we.

[Lauren Sherman]

She also lives nearby you and she would just come have go on walks with you.

[Pamela Love]

Where is she?

[Lauren Sherman]

She's in Cheviot Hills. So she's not far from you.

[Ad Read Announcer]

Yeah.

[Pamela Love]

We need to do dinner and then she can walk with me because I do need to do some walking at some point.

[Lauren Sherman]

I would love it. She is the best. And I feel like you both know each other very well at this point.

[Pamela Love]

We get each other's texts.

[Lauren Sherman]

So, Pamela, this was amazing. Congratulations, everybody. Buy a deck and have fun with it. And be open. Be open, be open. As I say, I come from a place of.

[Pamela Love]

Yes, that's really all it's about.

[Lauren Sherman]

Congrats on everything. Have a great time in New York and I'll see you soon.

[Pamela Love]

Thank you. I'll see you soon.

[Lauren Sherman]

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey. JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.

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[Pamela Love]

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[Pamela Love]

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[Pamela Love]

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[Pamela Love]

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