Lauren Sherman (2:52)

I know we did not will see Sofia Coppola to Chanel into existence, but we did will the Sofia Mark movie. I'm sure they would credit it to us.

Steph Yatka (3:01)

Yeah, we came up with that, obviously.

Lauren Sherman (3:05)

I still think, you know, one of the most iconic images of her of recent is that photo from that piece you did for ID where you're the global editorial director, where she's wearing, like, vintage Levi's and a blue. Royal blue polo and Chanel pumps, and she just looks perfect.

Steph Yatka (3:26)

Yeah. It's the coolest anyone's ever let. Thank you so much for that. But I mean, like, every picture of her is the most iconic picture.

Lauren Sherman (3:34)

I know that's true.

Steph Yatka (3:35)

We're like her number one fans.

Lauren Sherman (3:38)

We truly are. It's funny, I really resisted posting any of the photos from the Elle shoot, which I kind of felt bad because I like everyone obvious. I. I thought that the COVID looked really great, and I love Alex White and thought that it was done really nicely. But I was like, I can't be such a cliche and just post this. Like, her in the. In the marled gray or speckly gray Chanel sweater. Like, it's just like, two people are like, shut up, Lauren Sherman. You're such an idiot.

Steph Yatka (4:08)

I know. I feel like her PR person must have, like, my photo and be like, be careful around this one.

Lauren Sherman (4:15)

She's. She started following me on Instagram.

Steph Yatka (4:18)

She follows me, too. We have the same birthday. Like, that's how crazy I am about this.

Lauren Sherman (4:22)

Wow. Well, I did. I did email her once and asked if Sophia would be interested in coming on the podcast. And I really thought she would, but no response. But maybe she'll hear this or someone can send it to her. I think she should come on and just, like, talk about her life in fashion. This is, like, no gotcha. Available for Sofia Coppola.

Steph Yatka (4:41)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (4:41)

I ever tell you. Did I ever tell you about the time that I interviewed her? For some. I did, like, this InStyle had this in book page that was like a party page that was basically like an advertiser every time. And it was a Cartier party in Paris that she was throwing at some. I don't know, a bar or something. And, like, Elle and Dakota Fanning were there. I got to interview all of them, and I was the only one. And she was like, you seem really familiar how we met before. And I was like, I interviewed you on the red carpet of the Versace for H and M event. But also I had on, like, a black dressed with delicate gold jewelry, and my hair was blown out like hers. I look like a complete psycho. I was like, this woman is probably. I'm sure there are a lot of weirdos like. Like me, but it was funny. She was so nice. I'm.

Steph Yatka (5:29)

She's the best.

Lauren Sherman (5:31)

She's the best. Okay, Steph, so I miss you at Fashion Week because you were in India for a wedding, which sounded amazing, but, like, it was weird not having you there. How did it feel not to be around for the shows?

Steph Yatka (5:45)

It felt like I was missing the annual conference of my interests, you know, Like, I go to Fashion Week all the time because it's my job, but also because I like seeing all of these things. I like being in the room where it happens. You know, I think there's a vibration in the air that you can really only get when you're there. So I had a lot of fomo. Being on the other side of the world really creates a distance, which is kind of nice. Like, I feel like the right things came to me, you know, the right gossip, the right shows, the right looks, the right takes. And I avoided a lot of the sort of, like, small dramas or whatever. Like, it felt like a much more distilled way to consume Fashion Week, which I appreciated, but I obviously missed being there and miss, like, getting to see so many great shows in person.

Lauren Sherman (6:43)

Yeah, it's true. It's sort of like there's a real value in both. So if you're not there. The first time I really had a big break from it was when I was on maternity leave, which, like, during that, I was like, I really do not care. I don't know why. I've been doing this to myself forever. But then, you know, with this job, there's a huge value for me being there, not going to every single show, but more just being around. And now I. I like going to men's. I like going to Couture because of all the. There's just so much information. And I do think that there's a value in not being there and seeing how people are interpreting it from the outside and seeing, like you said, what information gets back to you. And then there's a value about. Of being in the room. And. And if you can do, like, a mix and have. I think it grounds you to not be there all the time completely, it's worth, like, taking a break from it or what have you. But I thought it was interesting. I read your piece on Margiela from last week with Blake. Who does. He does a magazine curated by still

Steph Yatka (7:50)

or is he a magazine?

Lauren Sherman (7:52)

He. Blake Abey. Is that how you say it?

Steph Yatka (7:55)

Ably, Abby, I think.

Lauren Sherman (7:56)

Okay. Okay. Blake. Abbey, you did a little Q and A with him because he went to the Margiela show in Shanghai, which was a combo of ready to wear and artisanal, which is essentially couture. And it wasn't Glenn Martin's first show. I think it was his second ready to wear and his second artisanal, and they kind of mixed it up. What was the reaction? Why did you decide to do an interview with Blake about it, given that it was this sort of, like, one off show in Shanghai? Like, it fascinated me as well, but I'm. I wonder what intrigued you about it.

Steph Yatka (8:37)

Yeah, well, I think first of all, I was, like, missing the action from not going to Fashion Week this season. So I was like, oh, a show is happening later. Like, this is a great opportunity for me to, like, dust off my keyboard, you know, and write about clothes. This season I was supposed to go to Shanghai. I had some visa problems, which I do think is going to become more of an obstacle for a lot of these destination shows. Like, a lot of brands are showing in America this spring, which I don't know how that's impacting guests from other countries, but I do think maybe it's just me being lazy, but there's sort of like a sense of wanting to travel less in such a unstable time. But anyway, I was supposed to go to this show in Shanghai. I was very excited because I was a big fan of Glenn's. It didn't work out. I watched the live stream and I thought, like, I could write my take on this with the press release, but I really value the opinion and the insights of people who are there. So I actually DM'd like five different people on Instagram to be like, can you answer these questions? And Blake is just the most responsible. So he replied right away. But I think that's like, such an important and easily accessible way to cover shows if you're not there is like, everyone's on their phone, everyone's on Instagram. Just, like, send a bunch of dms and I bet people will answer. But I also wanted to cover it because I think what's happening at Margiela is very interesting in that it's a heritage brand. You know, air quotes around heritage brand or whatever you want to feel about that. But it's is Very unsentimental. I think Glenn is maybe like an unsentimental person. It feels very modern and it feels very adventurous as far as both the marketing and the branding and also the design. I think a lot of heritage brands, heritage houses, whatever you want to call it, can get stymied in this reverence for the past or the way things are done here or the house codes. To me, that's just like a bunch of mishigats, you know, Like, I want to see interesting design and new ideas. And that's why I really wanted to kind of talk about Margiela on id, because I think the way that Glenn approaches it by like open sourcing this Margiela folders project. And then they did a curation of tabby collectors, which feels very like modern to talk about your clients, the people who collect your brand and not kind of like shun them to the side, but really bring them into the center. And then also design clothes that are very sort of provocative and weird, from the ready to wear to the artisanal. Like, it's all very bizarre, kind of in a good way or in an interesting way that like, spurs conversation. So I have a lot of respect for the brand and I have a lot of respect for what Glenn is doing. And so felt like the right thing to kind of shine a little spotlight on.

Lauren Sherman (11:48)

Yeah, I thought it was interesting too. And I was hoping, I wrote last week, I hope someone does like a deep dive on this project they've done in Asia because they did, I think, four exhibitions. They did this show. And obviously that's a huge market for them commercially, but also, you know, a tricky market right now for luxury brands because Chinese consumers are sort of fed up with getting fed bullshit. And they're also making, China's making their own brands. There's a lot of cool brands coming out of Korea. There's like more brands coming out of Asia generally. And so this idea of like exploring it right this second, I also, I agree, I think a good word to use for Glenn, even though his clothes aren't this necessarily, but it's very. He seems very pragmatic person. Like, it's not. I'm sure he's like every designer, but it doesn't feel like he's too much in his own way. Whereas I think a lot of people get in their own way in various forms because they're ego. And it doesn't seem like he's let his ego get in the way of being successful or the work. And that is really refreshing to me. The Other thing about Margiela that's interesting is because John Galliano was sort of the first name designer after Martin Margiel. If there were other people like Matu Blasi was designing it for a long time and Susie Minkes famously outed him on Instagram. She has the best Instagram. If anyone's not following Susie Mankey, you need to follow her immediately.

Steph Yatka (13:26)

No, we tried to get her to do a takeover for ID because we were like, we love this so much.

Lauren Sherman (13:31)

She.

Steph Yatka (13:31)

We're working on it.

Lauren Sherman (13:32)

Yeah, you need to.

Steph Yatka (13:33)

Marsha, if you're listening, please email us.

Lauren Sherman (13:35)

She needs to do it. I should, I wonder if she would come on Fashion People. I should message them. Yeah, it would be really good anyway. But the point being that I think because John Galliano has so much of a personality and he was able to sort of take the ideas of Margiela, which are the basis of so many of the clothes and things we wear today anyway, and make it his own, that it gave Glen a chance to not have like a good example I think is like Meryl Raja Marnie, the guy in the middle was so far from Marnie that like there was no connection to what Consuelo had been doing. That like, I feel like Meryl has to basically redo Marnie to start and then she can build on it. Whereas I think John did a really good job of like taking the ideas of Margiela and making them his own own. And. And Glenn is a different generation and it's just a really big opportunity. Like I was in Dover street yesterday trying on, speaking of another OTB brand, a bunch of Jill Sanders stuff and that I needed a pair of heels to try to try the skirt and they brought me two pairs of Margiela and it was. They were tabbies and I've never worn tabbies and I don't think that's going to happen for me. But what I realized was like, oh, that's just like what, what otb, the company that owns Margiela and Marnie and Jill all have been able to do. What they've been able to do is make the tabby and mm6 and like the idea of Martin Margiela just like a standardized thing that a lot of people wear now in the west, which I think is really impressive. And it gives Glenn the opportunity to do the sort of like really out there stuff that is still grounded in some sort of reality. And I thought my one thing was usually these sort of off the road shows are usually like a resort show or whatever. I was kind of like, damn, I wish that it was in Paris so that we could have all seen it. And I understand why they did it like that. I think it was smart and whatever. Just like, missing one show is not gonna be the end. But it just seemed like it was in person, especially really special. And I was like, oh, man. Like, I won't feel too bad about missing most of the resort shows in the US I can. Like you said, I can message people and say, how was it? Because I can't get to that. Or I. Or whatever, and get a sense. Because the resort shows, like, that's a midterm collection anyway. That's just kind of like a. You take a sense check. But that was my only thing was like, damn. This seemed like it was a pretty seminal collection for him, and I wish that I could have seen it in person. But kudos to them. I mean, we've talked about it for 10 minutes now.

Steph Yatka (16:40)

Yeah. I also think you touched on something really interesting that maybe we need to do a study on, is that it's good to be the second creative director after the founder leaves. You know, it's like, Glenn's in a good place with Margiela, because there was this kind of interstitial period where John broke everything. And the same with Marnie. It's like Francesco at Marni, which I loved. I bought a lot of it, but it was so not Marlon in the Consuelo sense. It was really, like, artsy in his way. And now, like, Meryl can do what she wants. She can reset. I think maybe we could find a lot of parallels. That's like, it's hard to be the first person. I mean, Peter Moulier kind of defied that with Elias, but he had the

Lauren Sherman (17:30)

experience of doing it, like, not. He wasn't this. They weren't this. When he was with Raph, they weren't the second designer to follow, but he had done Jill. I just watched this. Amazing. You have to watch it. This interview with him from four years ago where he's with some, like, I think they're Italian, these two Italians talking about Alaia. And I'll send you the link. And unfortunately, it's not. It's a podcast, but it's a live podcast, so I couldn't find it on itunes anywhere. So you have to watch the video. But he talks about, like, Calvin and Dior and his time at Jill, where he only did accessories. And I think by the time he got to Alaia, he had seen, like, he had been through so many different Cultures too, of like actual different countries, but then also different fashion cultures and different reasons. He was talking about like the dealing with like the suits at Calvin Klein, the American people, and the sensibility of like what fashion is in the US Version and also like the Italian sensibility and how close that culture is to Belgian culture, which I thought was really interesting. Anyway, the, the point being that like, I do think to be able to do that right, you have to have, you just have to be a very particular kind of person. I don't know. You can't be too selfish.

Steph Yatka (18:55)

Yeah. I mean, I think that's like a big takeaway period.

Lauren Sherman (19:00)

Yeah.

Steph Yatka (19:00)

For working in this industry is like the people who really thrive, have a, have a generosity to them and aren't. It's hard to be an egomaniac in fashion actually. Like you think there are a lot of egomaniacs, but it doesn't really serve you.

Lauren Sherman (19:14)

Not anymore. Like I think it used to be a little bit. And obviously these leaders, they need to have some sort of ego because you have to have a lot of confidence and look, it's that. But you have to. Most of the big companies now you're serving, you're serving a greater business and it's not your name on the door. So the balance at Alaia is still just remarkable to me. They've been doing all these campaigns, this advertising campaign with just the accessories that's so good. And it's just like this has no business being that good. It's just stills of shoes. I'm curious to know, like, who do you think would be. Who do you think will be good at a lie? I have no intel. If I do, obviously you all will be the first to know. But right now I have not been working on it. If you have any tips, call me. You all have my number. But who do you think would be good at a liah? Because I am constantly like, damn, I really don't know who could do it.

Steph Yatka (20:21)

Yeah. I think what Peter did so smartly was he made the accessories as important as the ready to wear. Which Alaia. I mean, yes. They have some iconic shoes and bags. I'd like that big belt that's sort of from Azzedine's era, but it was never like an accessories brand.

Lauren Sherman (20:45)

No.

Steph Yatka (20:45)

And so I think that complicates it because you need someone who has as strong of a know how. I mean, I do think from a design perspective they should be having a conversation with Zac Posen. Like he, he loves women. He is as meticulous a tailor as as we have in the 2000s. I'm sure he's making Buck from Gap, you know, like, it would be impossible.

Lauren Sherman (21:17)

I know how much he makes. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna reveal it here, but I know exactly how much he makes. And he, they can afford him. That's. He makes a lot of money. But like, and, and I'm sure as it's been successful, he's, he's gotten raises. But Alaia can afford. Reshma can afford him for sure.

Steph Yatka (21:36)

And he has this sort of warmth and general like, he's such a nice guy that to me like mirrors the sort of niceness, the kindness of Azzedine. My other idea was that somebody's gotta get Olivier Tastkens like a full time job. Like if you're listening to this podcast, you have a fashion brand do it for us. And I think he would be amazing. It's like more goth maybe than Alaia traditionally was. But like, nobody does romance like him.

Lauren Sherman (22:11)

Also, there's something just incredibly desirable about his clothes, which is interesting because he's never been commercially successful. But there's just something, there's like an intense desire when you see one of his dresses that I think is something that Peter was able to do. And obviously I went to the Alaia Dior exhibit at the Fondant. I don't know if it's the Alaia Foundation. I'm not going to even try to say. I don't know if it's Fundacion, whatever this weekend. And it was really interesting because of the relationship between the two. I guess it's like all of Azzedine Alaia's collection of Dior and he worked at Dior, but also like the fact that Peter worked at Dior and all of that together, I thought it was really interesting. And it was also, I think I had been there before, but I don't remember. And you can see into his office and all. But there was just something like, it's just so innately desirable, all of it, that the person who takes that job needs to have like his taste level. It's just like the taste level, the desire if he had a really strong person under him to do the accessories. Like if. I don't know if Peter's gonna take his main accessories person or if maybe he didn't have one and he was the one who was really directing. It's like every designer works differently with every category and project. But because he came from that stuff, maybe he, he, he was the one really driving that. I think it could. That could be interesting. Those are great ideas stuff because no one has mentioned them.

Steph Yatka (24:00)

I really put my thinking cap on before I came on this podcast, but I think it's, like, so easy to forget about some of, like, the great designers if they're in a more mass job or they're not in a job. I also think something else we need to figure out is, like, what's going on in Belgium that there's so many great designers. If anyone has any ideas, like contact.

Lauren Sherman (24:24)

Well, I think. I think it's the combo of. I really liked Vanessa Freeman's framing of that piece she recently did about, like, here's the lineage of all the designers who came up through the Belgian school system. I mean, look like I did a big story on Antwerp for BoF in 2018 about how terrible that school was in terms of post Linda Lapa world, of the way they treat people. And so I'm sure it's changed a lot because I think even at that time, I remember talking to the school and they were like, yeah, this stuff is messed up. Like, they were really. When I remember sending through my, like, 30 questions, they were like, yes, this happened. And it's unfortunate, but the point being that, like, I think the culture is pretty rigorous. And so it's like you combine the. The culture of the country, which is like, as Peter is saying in this interview. So it's very interesting to listen to this. It's like three different cultures, basically. It's. They. They speak German. Then there's the French part, and then there's like, the Flemish part, and then there's also this Italian, because there's a lot. There was a lot of business done between Italy and Belgium. So the culture is very unique. And I think what you're seeing is, like, a lot of those designers going to Italian brands in particular, which is interesting. And then also. But then there's like, Antonin, who's at. Who's French, but who's at Balmain. He. He was there, too. And Julian Docenta from Paco Rabanne. Like, there's so many of them. But I think it's a combo of the way the school system was set up and the brilliance of someone like Linda Lapa, who I think is, like, probably doesn't get as much credit as she should in terms of her influence on the industry overall. And then also, like, the culture of the country itself and how they manage themselves and. And all that. I can't wait to go to that Antwerp 6 exhibit.

Steph Yatka (26:35)

I know. I went to Antwerp once to interview Julian Andrees, and I was like, gobsmacked at how beautiful and unpretentious the entire city is. Like, it's just like an incredible place for design and culture, music and literature, but it doesn't have the sort of, like, pomp of Paris or even of Milan. And I think there's something happening there that's very, very real, but still very imaginative.

Lauren Sherman (27:09)

Yeah. And I went for a long weekend once and for no particular reason and just was blown away by, like, I thought, oh, wow, now I understand why all these guys live here. Because you can have a normal life here very easily in a way that you can't in these other cities. There's just too much stimulation. But, yeah, I think it's. It's definitely. I wonder if, I wonder if it'll be another Belgian who goes to Aliyah. I don't. I don't think so. But. But we'll see.

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Lauren Sherman (28:52)

One other person that's been kind of named has been bantered about, I think for reasons that are kind of probably not based in logic, but rather just because he's available as Dario. Vitaly and I did a piece last week about, like, what are his options? He's. He's a free agent. And again, this interview of Peter, he talks about, he's like, designers are like sports stars now. And you're just. It's like, it's like, betting on. On the trade that I'm. I'm apparently number one in the. The fantasy. Not fantasy football. The nc. Nc. NCAA basketball.

Steph Yatka (29:34)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (29:34)

I'm number one. Fab. I know. I really hope I win.

Steph Yatka (29:39)

I was in a fantasy football league organized by Michael Karl of Hermes once, and I got kicked out of the league for insider trading with Nicole Phelps.

Lauren Sherman (29:49)

So he always says he's going to invite me and then never does. It's really weird. Well, he's always like, are you interested? I'm like, yes, I am. I'm very good at fantasy football. I work really hard. And then he never invites me.

Steph Yatka (30:04)

Oh, see, I did not work hard. Everyone in the league is very legit. Like, it was, like, super legit. And I was just kind of like, la, la, la. And then maybe towards the end of the season, Nicole was like, will you trade me this player? And I was just like, sure. Like, I didn't really know what was happening. I was in last place. And then every person in the league was like, you can't do that. You're cheating. You guys are colluding. And I was like, I don't even know what's happening. But then I was never invited back. But it's fine.

Lauren Sherman (30:33)

I think I might get invited this year. There was some talk, but I don't know. I feel like I should be in it. I almost won. I did really well in the puck one this season. Me and Dylan Byers, we got close.

Steph Yatka (30:50)

Yeah, you have the right logic for this. You know, you're very analytical.

Lauren Sherman (30:55)

I'm not going to let my emotions get involved. So back. Back to Dario. Back to Dario.

Steph Yatka (31:00)

Back to Dario.

Lauren Sherman (31:02)

I'll tell you what I think. But so basically, in this piece I laid out, here's what people are like, little things. People have been saying that some of them, I think, are totally unfounded. Some of them, I think, have a little bit more weight to them. But then, like, the reality of what I actually think is going to happen and where he's going to go and where I think he should go, or the same place. But I'm curious what you think.

Steph Yatka (31:26)

Wait, where do you think he should go?

Lauren Sherman (31:29)

I think he should go to Kenzo, which is kind of mean because they have a wonderful designer named Nigo. But I. And best of luck to Nigo. I think he's a great guy and very talented and can do many good things, but I do not think that's the right place for him. And I don't think it's the right thing for lvmh. And you know, I've done reporting on the business before and have stuff to back that up. But I think, look like lvmh, once they get behind someone, they really get behind them. And when we all think it needs to end, it doesn't end for five years, but I think it makes a lot of sense. Like, they should be recruiting him. I think that's the best place for him to work. Honestly. I've been in Paris for two months and I've been covering these businesses for 20 years. But what I've realized in this sort of new normal of luxury where consumers aren't shopping like they were unless it's for Chanel, the market is just very different. Hermes Chanel are sort of isolated from it. They're. They're unique. LAURA PIANA but the rest of it is really challenged. I think, like LEMH is managing. Managing it well. Like they're managing their brands. They're making their brands desirable. They're working hard. And I think, like, if I was a designer like Dario, who, he's gonna get paid really well, he has this proof of concept that's one season of commercial viability marketing. Viability design, viability concept, all of it. Like, there aren't a lot of jobs open, but I would make room for him. And I think, like, if I were him, that's where I would go. And I think Kenzo would be an amazing brand from him from a history perspective, just like his. What you can see what he did at Miu Miu too, with him not being there. I still think Miu Miu is obviously brilliant and that is her. But you could see what was extracted when he left. And I think what he has to give would be great at Kenzo. So when Kego is ready to move on, I think that that would be. That is what they should do. So if that happens, I hope someone is going to be paying me a commission.

Steph Yatka (33:40)

I'm just kidding.

Lauren Sherman (33:41)

I can't think.

Steph Yatka (33:43)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (33:44)

So what do you think, though?

Steph Yatka (33:46)

Okay, well, I have a question for you because you, you're better at reading the business tea leaves than I am. I have two brands that have been like bandied about for sale. People think LVMH is trying to sell Marc Jacobs. And then people think something is happening with McQueen that caring because they just closed their store on Bond Street. So, like, what's your read on those situations?

Lauren Sherman (34:11)

Okay, I have lots of original reporting about both of these things, Steph, but I'll be fast. So Marc Jacobs, I would say right now they're not trying to sell it. They did try to sell it and they were going to sell it to abg, this licensing company and it didn't work out and they have recommitted. This is I've report, like, I've done tons of reporting on this and confirmed it like from a lot of different sources within lvmh, within Marc Jacobs, within Authentic Brands Group. They were going to sell it to them. It didn't work out for various reasons and Mark and they have recommitted. That being said, my feeling is that like, if someone comes with the right price, they will sell it, because it just doesn't. The business itself is not the same business. And I think that they will try to do it in a way that is good for Mark because he is still making them a shit ton of money every single year through like the work he did at Louis Vuitton is still paying dividends to them. And also the Marc Jacobs brand, I mean he, without him, LVMH would not be what it is. So I do think, look, they're not gonna, they're not gonna keep it out of loyalty, but I think they'll, they'll sell it in a proper way to make it good for him. But that said, I don't think that's happening right now. It could happen in the next few years. But Queen, they definitely have done a reorganization and like a, a fixing of the business. For now. The caring people have said it's not for sale. Everything is for sale. And what Luca de Mea, the new carrying CEO, has said is like, we're going to be constantly reevaluating these businesses and if something makes sense, there were offers or an offer to buy McQueen and it was rejected because it wasn't enough money. I personally think they should have sold to those people. I don't want to get into that right here because I actually don't remember if I reported it or not. And I don't want to have to ask for comment, but I think the point being that like both of these things are not for sale, but everything is for sale. And I think with McQueen in particular, Luca Deo needs to make that business run smoothly, like the caring group run well. And it needs to, he needs to make shareholders happy and he wants to build businesses for the future. It's going to be easier to do when you're over a billion dollars a year and you have like McQueen never, it never got past probably 400 million. Balenciaga got past a billion. Like they're the other ones moved. McQueen was never able to. And I think. And at one point, the shoe was. The sneaker was 80% of the business, which happens with a lot of these companies. So I think eventually it will sell. But that's a long way to say right now neither of those things have sold. Whether or not they will in the next couple years, I think there's a big chance for both of them.

Steph Yatka (37:13)

To me, the value proposition of Dario Vitale, other than he's a great designer, is that he has connected with young people, young consumers, in a way that I have not seen. Like, a new creative director maybe since Peter Moulier came out with the ballet flats at Alaia. Like, the amount of young millennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, who were, like, obsessed with his Versace show. I think I just listened to the Harper's Bazaar podcast with Leah and Lynette, and Benny Skinner is on talking about how, like, he blew a ton of money ever Saatchi on Dario's Versace. Because he just was like, the fit is great, the silhouette is great. It has this. It is not really nostalgic, but it nods to an energy of the 80s without looking dated. And so, you know, if I were a CEO who had a brand that needed to genuinely connect with millennials or with Gen Z, I would be like, he would be the number one name on my list. Because it's just like, I've never seen sort of like a groundswell of obsession. And what I really liked about what he did at Versace. Versace. Sorry, that's how you're supposed to pronounce it.

Lauren Sherman (38:40)

Oh, really? Versace.

Steph Yatka (38:42)

I guess Versace.

Lauren Sherman (38:44)

Not Versace.

Steph Yatka (38:45)

Versace.

Lauren Sherman (38:47)

I really hope they invite Elizabeth. Whatever. To a Versace show in the way that they invited Alicia Silverstone. It'd be really funny to Alaia.

Steph Yatka (38:57)

I agree.

Lauren Sherman (38:59)

Anyway, back to Versace.

Steph Yatka (39:01)

Versace. He made a whole world. Like, there were interesting artists. The way that show was presented, they had great show notes. It just felt really alive. They were doing these digital projects that were, like, recreations of the archive by, like, cool online archivists. And so I think there's a lot of potential there. I had a sort of crackpot idea that I need you to tell me why it's not viable as a business, but if I had money, I would buy the face and I would relaunch it as a sort of, like, fashion brand slash print project. You know, it's like, so many of these fashion brands have these magazines, like Dior magazine, Nui Ven magazine, and they're Doing great storytelling, but it's not accessible for people because you have to, like, go to the store and get this object. And I'm like, maybe, like, the Face Runway show is not a cool idea to people, but I think if you bought that brand, let Dario Vitale shop around the archives, make cool clothes, have, like, maybe it's not a fashion show, it's a presentation, but then also this, like, amazing magazine sounds cool to me.

Lauren Sherman (40:19)

It's not a terrible idea. Like, look 032C. I don't know how that. That don't go after me. Jorg. Is that his name? Yeah.

Steph Yatka (40:28)

I love York.

Lauren Sherman (40:30)

Don't go after me. He's always messaging me about how he doesn't subscribe. So it's fine, though. I can't remember his name. He. I mean, I don't know how that business is doing right now, but for a while it was doing really well. So I think that that is actually an interesting idea. And I do think someone should buy the face. I guess it's over and it's fine, and let's just move on. But it's too bad that it. Because it. I think the Face ID and what's the other one?

Steph Yatka (41:05)

Dazed Taste.

Lauren Sherman (41:07)

They're. They're very important. And. And the way that magazine culture and. And journalism is in the uk, they still can be viable. Like, you could still have a business base there or in France or. Or Germany or whatever. Like, it's still. It's changing now, but. But I think. I don't. I think that's an interesting idea. And. And it could be interesting for, you know, one of the bigger fashion groups to buy it. Because the thing is, they. And make it like a little experiment.

Steph Yatka (41:42)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (41:43)

Because they're the. The thing that's hard is the production and the distribution and all that. Like, I mean, it's not. It's easy. It's hard to make a magazine. But I just mean from a projection perspective, the clothes are the thing that's challenging. And if you have all that stuff, it's. It's interesting.

Steph Yatka (42:01)

So many fashion brands are trying to become media outlets, and I think it would be an interesting experiment to go the other way. Start with a media outlet and turn it into a fashion brand.

Lauren Sherman (42:13)

I love this concept stuff. This is brilliant. Again, great.

Steph Yatka (42:17)

If anyone wants to make this happen, please contact me.

Lauren Sherman (42:20)

Yeah, this stuff is. Steph is not available, but she's available for this.

Steph Yatka (42:25)

So I'm not available, but I'd love to consult or just have a combo.

Lauren Sherman (42:30)

Yes.

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Lauren Sherman (43:53)

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Lauren Sherman (44:15)

Let us surprise you. So one media company that has done this sort of is, well, that has, has pivoted to figure out a new business model. Is the company that owns bdg, Bustle Digital Group, not the denim from Urban Outfitters. They own Nylon and they do a lot of live events and things. Our friend Lauren is the editor there. Question for you. And I'm sure they're doing something big at Coachella. You texted me this morning. You said, why don't we talk about Coachella? And I was like, Coachella's happening. It's not just because I'm in Paris. I would barely know if I was in la. I would only know because I could go to some silly wine bar in Silver Lake and it wouldn't be overrun on Friday night at, at 8pm but what's going on at Coachella? What, what's, what's the vibe this year?

Steph Yatka (45:19)

So I think Coachella had sort of hit a, a slump in the 2000s. Not only because of the pandemic, but it became sort of a parody of itself. Like there was all of this festival fashion and like the Vanessa Hudgens of it all. I think I'm making a prediction. This is going to come out on the seventh. Coachella starts on the 10th. I think Coachella, what artists wear on stage at Coachella is going to become like incredibly important to fashion. Like both artists that have their own brands, like Bieber is headlining. Like, that's a huge moment for Road and also a huge moment for his brand, but also for like luxury brands and what artists they're dressing. I did like a little post it math and it's like, okay, Dior has at least three ambassadors. Ethel Kane, Little Sims and the XX people I see in Dior shows performing. And then there's like Somber and Levy who are both Valentino people. There's clips who are famously at the Vuitton show and Ward Vuitton at the Grammys. Then there's people like Pink Panthers, FK Twigs, Addison Rae who just have like great style. I really think Coachella is about, is the new salone like brands you should be paying attention to these artists, they look great, they have truly insane fandoms and it's just like becoming a great moment for fashion brands to be there. And I think the heat is what's happening on stage and less like what people are wearing. I think festival fashion is kind of over. And it's more like last year Addison Rae wore Chloe to one of her. She like came out with Lana Del Rey maybe. And I thought that was like a great moment for Chloe to kind of like reclaim boho in one of the most boho scenarios on earth.

Lauren Sherman (47:20)

Yeah, that's a great point. And it does feel like musicians have generally kind of upped their game on stage. It probably has to do. It probably started with Rihanna, but Beyonce and Chiona, all the tours that they've done. But then like Mel just did the Lily Allen tour and our friend Carolyn Faux is doing Somber. She just did his tour. And I'm sure. And that's a really great point. Like, it's a great. Everybody's watching them and it's sort of in between red carpet season and so it's an opportunity and also to do more original stuff and, and more adventurous stuff because usually musicians are a little more creative and care about their clothes where not all celebrities do. I'm sorry to tell people, not all actors. That's really interesting. I love, I love this idea.

Steph Yatka (48:20)

Gives brands like an Opportunity to own the moment in the way that you really can't at Fashion Week. You know, like, they invite all these people, but it's like in one day at Fashion Week, you could see 50 A list celebrities, and it's sort of like, yeah, just washes over you, and you don't really pay attention to who is where or who or what. And kind of maybe I'm red carpet fatigued, but I sort of feel the same way about red carpets. It's like we're just running through the credits. Everyone's an ambassador. It doesn't feel that exciting to me. Sorry to be a hater, but then, you know, I saw Twigs at Madison Square Garden a couple weeks ago, and I was just, like, electrified by the production. Her, like, physicality, her athleticism, the people dancing in the audience. I just thought, like, this feels like a area that fashion should really be communing with more. I mean, brands have always dressed musicians, but I think there's a real opportunity to own it and own a moment with an artist. And, you know, more people than ever are paying attention to Coachella and music festivals and younger people. So if I was a betting man, I would say there's probably going to be some big gags at Coachella this weekend or next weekend.

Lauren Sherman (49:42)

I'll be watching and thankful that I don't actually have to be there. On the other hand, I am going to Salone. Have you been before?

Steph Yatka (49:50)

I've never been. I think it could be. I'd love to go, but, yeah, I've never been.

Lauren Sherman (49:55)

I'm a little bit stressed out about it. We're doing a dinner there, which is a reason to, like, if we weren't doing the dinner, I would not go. Well, that's not actually true there. I mean, everyone is going to be there, so there's so many fashion brands doing things there. It's crazy. Like, I have stuff every single day that is. But it's interesting. I was talking, we had friends over last night. One of them is going just to be around. And I was like, it's just different from Fashion Week because there's one fashion show, you really have to be invited to it, and that happens during an hour, and then you're done. But this is like three to seven, and there's like 17 things. And he was like, well, there's no movement. It's just a chair. But I'm very stressed out by, like, what do I actually need to go to? Who is gonna be my buddy during. Like, it's just all these things of My. My friend Kelsey Keith, who works at Miller Knoll, is. I'm. I'm, like, gonna attach to her for part of it. Like, I just. I don't. And also the fact that, like, my Airbnb was way more expensive for Saloni than it is during Fashion Week. It was still very reasonable, but, like. And I. It's a really great Airbnb. No one's ever taking it from me. But I was like, is it gonna be very busy? Am I gonna. You know how hard it is to get around Milan? Anyway, I'm like, yeah. And I take the train, so at least I have that. And I guess there won't be stuff in, like, weird outs. It'll all be in the center of the city, so you can walk most of the places. But I don't know. It's. It's. I'm a little. I'm. I'm very excited. It'll be very fun, but I'm also a little stressed out about it.

Steph Yatka (51:41)

I'm excited to read your newsletters from Solana because it has become like, a fashion week in and of itself. Like, every brand has an activation.

Lauren Sherman (51:51)

Yeah. I hope I get some fun gossip, like, some fun, fun things that come out of it. So if I wanted to ask you two more quick things we can do, like, rapid fire.

Steph Yatka (52:02)

Okay, Great.

Lauren Sherman (52:04)

One is about the campaigns this season, because I feel like you probably have some ideas. I did, like, a ranking of my top favorite campaigns. I am really obsessed with this idea of, like, how has our exposure to, like, instant gratification changed image making? And as someone who's putting together a magazine, I'm sure you think about this all the time, but I see it a lot in. And also the celebrity of it all. Like, almost every campaign has celebrities in it. It used to not be every campaign. It's just all changed so much. I was curious if there were any campaigns that really struck you this season as being beautiful or innovative and why.

Steph Yatka (52:53)

I really liked two campaigns that feel on opposite ends of the spectrum. I thought it was very smart of Chanel to recruit Michel Gondry and Kylie Minogue to remake the Kylie Minogue video with Margot Robbie. I think, like, if you have a lot of money to make an ad campaign, a great way to spend it is to invest in a real artist. And that's what that felt like to me. And obviously, there's a lot of nostalgia there. That, for me, maybe feels, like, a little bit uncool to, like, redo something from the past, but I thought it was done so well. And again, If I had all the money in the world, like, I'd be giving it to Michel Gondry for sure. And then on the other end of the spectrum, I really, really, really insanely loved the Prada ads by Jordan Wolfson with the fake bird AI bird. I'm not totally sure if it was real or fake or if people were in it or not. I like that the dialogue was like, like so bizarre and inexplicable. I like that it was provocative and inexplicable and forward thinking. You know, like it's really easy to make something nice that is a remake of something in the 2000s or the 90s or the 80s. And very few brands are trying to make something that's not just for 2026, but that's for 2030. And this felt like a great, strange execution. I think, you know, Prada loves to be provocative. I was very glad to see that they were taking this ad campaign which had lots of famous people in it, and getting them all to kind of participate in this weird art project. So I loved that. And I thought it really like raised the bar for what an ad could be or should be.

Lauren Sherman (54:50)

I agree. I thought it was awesome. My top 10 kept changing and I sent two editors in Chiefs the list and I was like, I don't sound stupid saying these, right? But I agree. I think it was really interesting and funny and weird and creepy and uncomfortable and everything you want out of Prada and felt like also expose the clothes in the right way. Like the clothes were part of the campaign, which is, which is important to me. And I like the Chanel campaign. It was not on my top 10. I think the interesting thing about Mattu is like, I was talking about this with friends the other night about the soundtracks of his shows, which seem to be geared towards women between the ages of 35 and 45. It's funny, it's not cool. And this is the thing. He's not cool. He's very cute and his clothes are amazing and I love them, but it's not cool. And so that. And that's fine, but he understands that and that's why the client who's been there for 50 years is buying it. And 25 year old girls who never thought they would buy Chanel is buying are buying some part of it. Like I would personally like. I don't think the shoes and bags will ever be for me, but I got this jacket that every, you know, everybody who's asking me which jacket, like, I've literally posted 15 photos of me in this jacket. If you can't figure it out, I'm sorry, I'm not sending you the link to the jacket. But the point being that, like, I do think it. I think it's really well done the way everything. He's just doing what he thinks is right. And it is. But I agree on the Prada campaign. I think I had it at number four, and maybe if I went back, I would have put it further up. But I think the reason I did, I didn't. Because Prada is always good. And I. And so it's kind of. I didn't give it as much weight. But I think you're right. And I also think I was talking to someone last week who's worked a lot with talent agencies, and we were talking about the fact that, like, there will still, like, if you're a talent agency right now, why don't you make sure that you have a bunch of great creative directors on your roster? And, like, the definition of what a creative director is is changing too. But you're always going to need a creative director and artists with AI because you need someone to direct the AI or at least for the next 30 years or hopefully. But I think that's like, it's just an example of, like, not being afraid of the future and using it to show, like, to take things to another level. Because the. You're right. The problem is people are too obsessed with the past. And if you don't move forward, then it doesn't feel good. It starts to feel. It feels sad. And so I think both of those. I love the way you framed them. And they both are so valid in the market right now, too. I mean, when you think about it, those are really the two brands that fashion, big brands of fashion consumers are really into right now. And that's interesting that you chose them for the campaigns, too.

Steph Yatka (58:03)

Wait, I have a quick question for you because you mentioned the soundtrack that the Chanel shows, and I think there was the Dawson's Creek song Rhythm as a Dancer, Poker Face by Lady gaga. What, like, 2000s or 90s song do you want to hear at the next Chanel show? Or, like, what artist do you think he should collab with?

Lauren Sherman (58:24)

He also did Torn by Natalie Ambruglia. And then at Couture, it was Oasis, I think Wonderwall, but also the Verve at Bittersweet Symphony. I think I did not like the Lady Gaga from the last. I'm not a Lady Gaga person, so I'm hanging up. I know.

Steph Yatka (58:46)

Wow.

Lauren Sherman (58:46)

I know. Well, this is our final My final question is about a performer who I will not be able to go to the show, but I just don't. I never cared about Lady Gaga. I was too. Like, she got popular in 2008, 2009. I was like. I was too into Wilco. Like, it's just, you know, I was like. I was, like, trying to get a boyfriend. Tweety should come to the next Chanel show. No, please. I'm over that. I already had a boyfriend, actually, by 2008, but I was trying to impress my boyfriend, so. So it's not. I don't know. It's just, like, I don't care about lady, but I. My thing, and I've written this. I thought he was gonna do Stay by Lisa Loeb.

Ad Read Announcer (59:27)

Okay.

Steph Yatka (59:28)

I was gonna say Lisa Loeb. I need a Lisa Loeb comeback.

Lauren Sherman (59:31)

I just feel like. I feel like he needs to do it for me.

Steph Yatka (59:34)

Yes. For us.

Lauren Sherman (59:37)

If he puts in the show, I'll never write anything negative about Chanel ever again. That's not true. But. But. But I do feel like I really. The. The thing that he did the last show was that he put, like, this music from Pride and Prejudice, the Kira. Kira Knightley version, and that maybe I'm. I think he's two years younger than me. I'm more of a 1996 Pride and Prejudice, of course. Jennifer. Yeah. And Jennifer L. Ellie or Elle. Like, that. I don't care about the K. Knightley Pride and Prejudice, guys. I'm sorry. Like, it's not as good as the Colin Firth one. I don't. And also, the Colin Firth one is, like, five episodes. It's so much more fun to watch the whole thing. But I'm very excited for the Sense and Sensibility that's coming out soon. And then also there. I think there's a new Pride and Prejudice also. But I think, like, I like that he and Becky Malinsky texted me during the show and was like, oh, my God. This is the music from the Pride and Prejudice from. I think she's, like, a year younger than me. And I was like, okay, this is really the cutoff. But I like when he's, like, getting to this, like, romantic woman of our time. Because you're a little bit. You're much younger than me, but I feel like you.

Steph Yatka (60:51)

You were.

Lauren Sherman (60:52)

You were absorbing culture as an older person when you were younger. Who. What would you want?

Steph Yatka (60:59)

Well, Lisa Loeb was pretty high on my list. I would also, like, maybe some PJ Harvey, obviously, whole. I mean, Courtney Love. Get to the Chanel Show. Please.

Lauren Sherman (61:16)

Yes, please.

Steph Yatka (61:17)

I would really do it for me. And then I think there's a lot of 90s club music that I would love to hear, like Ace of Bass. Oh, that on the soundtrack.

Lauren Sherman (61:28)

You know, I agree with Ace of Bass. I would be very into. I would also be into some Amy Man. I think, unfortunately, he can't do Kate Bush because it's just gotten too much with, like, the Weathering Heights of it all. But, like, I would love. I would love some Magnolia soundtrack. Amy Man. You know what he is never going to do, But I do love is the Indigo Girls.

Steph Yatka (61:54)

Yes.

Lauren Sherman (61:54)

Or Sarah McLachlan. That would be good. I'm like, now, let's just go through Lilith fair.

Steph Yatka (61:59)

No Sarah McLachlan. Too sad. It's just like, I can't not see the ASPCA ad, you know, of, like, the sad dogs.

Lauren Sherman (62:07)

What about Jewel, though? That would be.

Steph Yatka (62:09)

Oh, Jewel, of course.

Lauren Sherman (62:11)

I think that that's. I think that's. Maybe he. Maybe there was some Jewel on one of the soundtracks. I don't know. I think there's. There needs to be some Jewel. I think, like, who else was at the. My first Lilith Fair was pretty good. It was like, Missy elliott.

Steph Yatka (62:27)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (62:28)

Sarah McLachlan and Jewel. Incredible. I am so jealous. It was so. I was 14. My mom was like, sure, you can go to this concert with a bunch of lesbians and gay men.

Steph Yatka (62:39)

Have a great time.

Lauren Sherman (62:43)

It was a very safe environment. But that was fun. So there's one person we didn't mention who has a big Paris run coming up in the fall. I think some of the shows are during Paris Fashion Week. Is Celine Dion.

Steph Yatka (62:59)

Montreal's greatest.

Lauren Sherman (63:00)

Montreal's greatest. Huge respect. I have huge respect for this woman. I love her style. I think she's amazing. I have zero again. Becky Malinsky. Sorry to throw you under the bus, but she was like, let's go to the show. And I was like, no. I have no desire to see Celine Dion ever. I hate all of her music. I like her. Oh, I can't take it. It's too. This is. I was probably 13 when this. Again, coming back to me like, this is. It was too. Oh, I really don't. Like, will you go? Because I just feel like. I feel like every person there better not be the. Because she's doing 10 days in September and October. There's gonna be overlap. At least one or two of the shows must be during Fashion Week. Will you skip shows to go to. To Celine Dion?

Steph Yatka (63:58)

Depends on the show. But absolutely. I mean, I worked at Vogue when they did the Celine Dion couture video on the boat on the Seine. And I have a recollection of around that time, her being on Good Morning America or something. And we filmed, like, a social video with her. And it was on my birthday, and she sang Happy Birthday to me.

Lauren Sherman (64:23)

Oh, my God, I have that.

Steph Yatka (64:25)

I need to find that recording. It's somewhere on some hard Drive. Maybe 2016, 2017. But I also worked at Essence for two years in Montreal. I mean, I lived in New York, but the company's based in Montreal. And many of my friends from there are like, you know, she is God. Like, when you go to Montreal and you pass the cathedral, they're like, that's where Celine Dion got married. Like, it's not like that's the cathedral. It's like, that is the venue of Celine Dion's wedding. And so I think I would love to go with all my Canadian friends from Montreal and really have, like, a beautiful Quebecois experience. I love that she's camp, too. She, like, she doesn't take herself too seriously, which I appreciate. In the Diva.

Lauren Sherman (65:11)

I agree. I'm a huge fan. I just. I can't. I can't go to it. I went to a bunch of concerts in the last year. It was like my midlife crisis thing. And I'm going to balance Sebastian in June in la. I was supposed to go in London next week, but thank you to Kaylin Phillips for buying my four tickets off of me because I was going with Matthew Blasey.

Steph Yatka (65:32)

Get Bell and Sebastian there.

Lauren Sherman (65:33)

Oh, my God. Like, come on, please. I. Fox in the snow.

Steph Yatka (65:39)

I would love that. I also have been getting into the shins again.

Lauren Sherman (65:43)

Oh, my God. Yes. This is. Here's the issue. Do you use Apple or Spotify?

Steph Yatka (65:48)

Apple.

Lauren Sherman (65:49)

Apple puts a lot of shins on there. It's up, up there. Like, here's the thing I would like to say to Apple. Not interested in Big Thief. I understand why people like Big Thief. I know why Chris Black likes Big Thief. I'm not interested. And there's another band that they are serving me constantly. Oh, bon iver. I'm just like, stop it. I told you I don't want this stuff. Please stop. But the shins, I'm always like, oh, that's nice.

Steph Yatka (66:15)

Yeah, I'll hear that.

Lauren Sherman (66:16)

Yeah. I do. I do enjoy. I do enjoy the Apple algorithm. I'm excited for your experience. It's Lean Diana for you to write about it.

Steph Yatka (66:26)

You'll be reading it on the ID Magazine Sense stack. October 2026.

Lauren Sherman (66:31)

When is the next. What's the next big thing you all have going? Like, is there a big issue coming out or you have, like, a big online thing? Like, what. What can you promo right now for us?

Steph Yatka (66:42)

Well, I'd love to promo our current issue of id, the Lore issue, on newsstands now with Bobby Tut, Maktu's favorite Chanel model, Sza an sdkid. It's like. It's our third issue of ID under Tom. I think it's my favorite one yet. I'm obsessed with how rich we've been able to make the storytelling. Nikolaya just wrote an amazing. Well, she just published online her amazing research project into if Gen Z is having sex, which is hilarious. I hope everyone reads it and we have some coming out. They are, but it's, like, bizarre.

Lauren Sherman (67:25)

Ooh.

Steph Yatka (67:25)

There's some pretty provocative stories in there. So go to our website and read them. We have a secret project that I can't talk about coming out at the end of April. So hopefully Fabulous tunes in for that.

Lauren Sherman (67:38)

Fabulous. And Stephanie, you haven't been on since you got married. Congratulations. Thank you. Much love to Erin.

Steph Yatka (67:44)

Thank you. Thank you. Famously, I was at Lauren's wedding at the Green Building.

Lauren Sherman (67:50)

It was fun.

Steph Yatka (67:51)

2013. It was so fun.

Lauren Sherman (67:53)

It was 2011, Steph.

Steph Yatka (67:54)

2011. Oh, my God.

Lauren Sherman (67:56)

That's a long time ago. Yeah, it was 15 years.

Steph Yatka (68:00)

Oh, my God. Congrats. Happy anniversary.

Lauren Sherman (68:02)

Thank you so much. Well, I'm so happy for you guys. And I'm so. I'm so happy you're gonna be back at Fashion Week this season. We'll have to do an episode from the shows.

Steph Yatka (68:12)

I would love to. I'm gonna do all of men's pt, Milan, Paris, while I have lots to say.

Lauren Sherman (68:18)

Oh, maybe. Yeah, let's do. Maybe we can do. I might come for a little of Milan. I haven't decided, but I will not be at pt. Oh, you'll be there for the Sunflower Copenhagen show.

Steph Yatka (68:30)

I'll be there for the Simone Rocha show, obviously.

Lauren Sherman (68:34)

Oh, man, that's. Oh, I actually do wanna go for that. Damn.

Steph Yatka (68:37)

The day it was announced, I emailed them and I was like, see you there.

Lauren Sherman (68:43)

I'm excited. We'll do. I will schedule it. You should definitely come on. And you could do a report from Milan, because I have someone doing the Paris one, but a new special guest, a new menswear person I'm bringing into the mix. But let's do the Milan and Pitti. That would be awesome. But, Steph, thank you for being here. You are one of the most regrets requested guests, so I'm so happy to have you back.

Steph Yatka (69:09)

Stop it. It's so fun to chat with you. I hope you have a gorgeous day in Paris.

Lauren Sherman (69:13)

You too. We'll talk soon. Much love.

Steph Yatka (69:15)

Bye.

Lauren Sherman (69:18)

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbit and director of editorial operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.

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