Avery Trufelman (4:37)

What a dream. Lauren Sherman, thank you for having me.

Lauren Sherman (4:40)

Did you have a nice weekend?

Avery Trufelman (4:42)

Oh, my God. I'm like, what was the weekend? What day was it? I'm still, like, in the throes of making, you know, podcaster to podcast, so you know how much work it can be.

Lauren Sherman (4:50)

Well, yours takes a lot more work than mine.

Avery Trufelman (4:54)

It comes in waves. It comes in waves. Yeah. Different kinds of podcasts.

Lauren Sherman (4:58)

So you're still. You're still recording for this season?

Avery Trufelman (5:02)

Well, not recording, but I just. I don't know. Mine's the kind of podcast that has, like, music behind it and stuff. So I'm still.

Lauren Sherman (5:11)

Not just total BS all day.

Avery Trufelman (5:14)

No, no, no. It's just like, I don't know, I'm like, yeah, like, oh, crafting. Crafting the narrative. I don't know. I spent so much time on this stuff. It takes forever. It's so funny. For months, people have been like, so is it all in the can? And for months I've been like, oh, no, I have to go home and finish it. So I'm still finishing it, but, well.

Lauren Sherman (5:37)

I'm enjoying it and we're gonna get more into it. Later, I wanted to talk to you up top about a couple little news items. First of all, before we started recording, I mentioned the Marty supreme anticipation and how. And how its merch has sort of looped. Our buddy Jacob Gallagher had a great piece in the New York Times this past week about. So I am Marty supreme, the new Safdie and it's Benny Safdie directorial. Only him debut that comes out on Christmas day. Everybody who's seen it said it's awesome. I love the Safdie brothers movies. I'm very excited to see it. But out of this has come this merch story of T. Timothee Chalamet shows up to. He did do a screening, but this like pop up shop. He's wearing head to toe Dior. He looked amazing. He had the pink cable knit sweater on. He finally did this cable knit sweaters justice. He looked really, really good. But he's. They're selling this merch that they made for the movie that originally was just gonna be for the promo tour, but it's become this like giant deal. Everybody wants this $250 windbreaker. I'm so curious.

Avery Trufelman (6:52)

That's fantastic.

Lauren Sherman (6:53)

Because you're a sort of a student student where you are a student of fashion and. And its place in culture. I am honestly a little shocked by how insane merch still is after all these years. I have gotten so. And bought so much merch in the last month and I'm like, when will merch be done?

Avery Trufelman (7:16)

Well, you know, I'm sure you're like, you've heard the argument that like everything is merch. Right? Like the.

Lauren Sherman (7:21)

Yeah.

Avery Trufelman (7:21)

Since the whatever Virgil Abloh Ization of fashion that it's like all just sort of versions of merch. And in a weird way, I do feel like merch is sort of the truest version of fashion. Right. It's just sort of like branding for a season. And when I see this stuff, it's like, oh, it's so great. It's so cute. And like even the fact, the fact that the title has supreme in it is like so cheeky in and of itself.

Lauren Sherman (7:51)

True.

Avery Trufelman (7:51)

I want it. It's so great. I'm like, who designed this?

Lauren Sherman (7:56)

It's this guy. Let's look up Jacob's article. I almost was, I almost asked Jacob to like pop in to discuss this, but he's too much. Next time New York Times.

Avery Trufelman (8:09)

But all of the stuff like. So my, my. My partner's in film and he's done a lot of work with a 24 and he's like, obsessed. Obsessed with the publicity that they've been doing. Like, did you see they leaked this Zoom call that they did? Oh, yeah, yeah. With Timothee Chalamet. And my partner was like, what is this? Is it real? Is it not? Like, it's brilliant. I can't stop watching it. He was like, sending it to everybody. It's so smart. Like, the way that they've built this mystique around this movie that already probably could have sailed along on its own merit.

Lauren Sherman (8:48)

Agreed. It's so good. So the designer of the merch is the sky, Donnie Namius, who has a Namius and LA clothing label. And so basically, they made the clothes with Taylor McNeil, the stylist who works with Timothy, and they were going to use it for the campaign. But A24 was like, why don't we just make it? Which is so smart. And also, $250 for a windbreaker is basically free.

Avery Trufelman (9:20)

No, it's really. And also, like, have you heard about the. What is it? The Brutalist sweater?

Lauren Sherman (9:27)

Yes.

Avery Trufelman (9:27)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (9:28)

Made 300 of them, right?

Avery Trufelman (9:30)

Yeah, exactly. And I.

Lauren Sherman (9:31)

Have you seen the Brutalist?

Avery Trufelman (9:33)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (9:34)

What did you think?

Avery Trufelman (9:35)

Amazing opening credits. Some of the best opening credits I've ever seen. Scene. I wish I walked out at intermission. This is what I told everybody. I was like, it's great if you leave it intermission, but then if you left at intermission, you wouldn't believe if I told you what happened after intermission. Not my favorite. I don't know. What did you think of it?

Lauren Sherman (9:54)

I didn't see it.

Avery Trufelman (9:55)

I don't. I can't.

Lauren Sherman (9:57)

The. Here's the thing. For me, the only way I could see that movie is if I went to a theater, because I would fall asleep. I'm gonna just watch the opening credits maybe this week.

Avery Trufelman (10:07)

Amazing opening credits. Truly incredible opening credits.

Lauren Sherman (10:10)

Um. I am very. Like, the only movies I've seen this year are Sinners. Not the only. I've seen. I've seen a good amount. But, like, the movies that I've made expressly gone and paid money to see are Sinners and the PTA movie. Yes. One battle after another, which was Job.

Avery Trufelman (10:29)

Honestly. Good job.

Lauren Sherman (10:31)

It's the best. Honestly. I'm not like, a big cinephile, but I've seen every single Paul Thomas Anderson movie without trying. Like, it's. He's just the best.

Avery Trufelman (10:39)

This happens at you.

Lauren Sherman (10:40)

Yeah. No, I. I realized one day, I was like, oh, I've actually seen every single one of his movies. How did. How does that happen? But, yeah, that it's interesting. I think I. The. Your point of the. Everything is merch is really smart. And also the way it make. I don't. It's so fascinating because I'm. I. It's not a Runway thing anymore, and it hasn't been for several years, but because designers aren't creative enough, like, they used it, and then the creative. Like, Virgil used it, obviously, but the creative ones used it, and then they. I think Jonathan Anderson's half zip with the little, like, dinky Dior underneath the zip is really good, but I don't think that was even on his Runway. I think he's just using out it outside of the Runway. But I don't think they're creative enough. But I was in New York a couple weeks ago, and I got. I went to Library180, and we did a merch exchange. I did one with Stephen Chaykin and Nikki. They. They gave. I gave them a bunch of puck merch, and they gave me a. And that. That. That hat I've been wearing everywhere. Then I went to Alison Roman's Pop up, and I got a hat and. And a bag. And then I went to Climax Books and got, like, socks that say books are exciting. I paid for those, obviously, but it's just. And I was like, how did I come back with, like, 15 new bags? And I also. Oh, I went to, like, an art. It's. It's so good, this art book fair in. In la and it. I got this book from Reagan Galleries that is this. No, this bag. They have a magazine called Quarterly Report, and, you know, I'm obsessed with Quarterly reports because I'm writing about the industry, and it's.

Avery Trufelman (12:34)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (12:35)

And so I got this. This bag that says something like, something about quarterly reports. I. I'm just out of control. Do you buy merch? Are you good about, like, only buying stuff occasionally and being, like, very judicious with your fashion purchases?

Avery Trufelman (12:53)

I. I don't know. I, like, I'm not. I'm not a big merch person, but sometimes I just can't resist it. And also, it's so. It's so bonding when you have, like, a good piece of merch and people are like, hey, nice, nice merch. I'm trying to think of the last piece of merch that I bought. I don't know. I was just, like, given these tote. Well, like, tote bags. Can't have too many tote bags. Like, I don't know. I just want to.

Lauren Sherman (13:17)

You can, but you can't.

Avery Trufelman (13:18)

You can, but you can't, like. I don't know, the idea of having, like, a jacket, like a big old jacket with stuff on it. I don't know. Like, my dad. My dad's like, a big fan of King Crimson, and he went to Japan recently. He had, like, this big. He went on this big trip with my mom. They're retired, and they went to Japan. And he has this, like, big King Crimson jacket. And he was, like, making friends with people in Japan who came up and were, like, also big King Crimson fans. It's like, that's what it's all about. That's what it's all about. Oh, no. That was the last piece of merch I was tempted to buy. I saw Air do their big, like, Moon Safari tour. I was like, oh, my God, I kind of want a Moon Safari jacket. But I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I didn't do it. The merch line was too long. That's when I'm tempted to do it. Like, band merch. I love band merch.

Lauren Sherman (14:11)

Yeah. I feel like the merch lines at those shows I've been going to. I've had a concert revival after about 15 years of not wanting to go to any shows. I've gone to a bunch this year.

Avery Trufelman (14:25)

And.

Lauren Sherman (14:25)

And the. The, like, death now, for me, going to shows was going to see Iron and Wine at the Bowery Ballroom, and I was like, I'm never going to a show again. But this year, was that literally 13, probably 2010 or 11. I was like, the zeitgeist. I was in my early 30s, and I was like, I cannot deal with this. I am done. I'm never going to a show again. And then I went to see. I was telling my friend this the other day. Then I went to see Bon Iver at Barclays, and I was like, I'm really done.

Avery Trufelman (15:00)

But then what brought you back?

Lauren Sherman (15:03)

Nostalgia. Honestly. Like, there were so many 20 and 30 year. I've gone to see. I went to Oasis. I went to see Nice, which I did not get any merch. I went to see, like. We went to see Counting Crows. My friend Molly and I have been on a real tour. We went to Heim. We went to. I got a ringer tea at Rilo Kiley, which, honestly, out of all these shows, was the last one I went to. It was. It was at the Hollywood bowl, and they were just. They're so good. And it was. It. It was really nostalgic. But also, I went to Built a Spill the other night.

Avery Trufelman (15:36)

Like, incredible, incredible.

Lauren Sherman (15:38)

Yeah, it was fun, but, yeah, I understand. Like, the. The line is long. Do you. Are. Do you mostly shop vintage or do you do a mix?

Avery Trufelman (15:48)

I do. I'm trying. I'm like, where do I buy my clothes? I guess I do mostly shop vintage. I feel like I'm like, where do I get all my stuff from? I feel like half of it is, like, stuff I found on the street, like, or. Or a lot of it is, like, I don't know. I like to buy stuff from. From friends. Like, I'm wearing pants that, like, my friend made, and, like, he embroidered these, you know, like, they're really cool.

Lauren Sherman (16:14)

Oh, wow.

Avery Trufelman (16:15)

You can't really see them there, but, like, they're denim.

Lauren Sherman (16:18)

They're denim.

Avery Trufelman (16:19)

They're denim embroidered. But I'm just such a sucker if someone's like, I make these. I'm like, well, I have to support you. You know, I have to. I have to buy these things. But, yeah, like, especially artists who are upcyclers, like, take. Take my money. Take all my money. I'll gladly pay $400 for this skirt. You fished out of the trash and sewed another skirt on top of this skirt. Like, gladly. I feel like that's where all my stuff comes from. Like, someone in Bushwick who found something and sewed something on top of the thing.

Lauren Sherman (16:51)

Like, yeah, the jeans are great, and they look so good because you have amazing personal style. Do you. What's your. What's your relationship with Armani? I'm curious.

Avery Trufelman (17:01)

Oh, my God, I love Armani. I love Armani so much. I can't say I, like, own any Armani, but a friend of mine, a very dear personal friend of mine works at Armani, and it was funny. He got married, like, the weekend. We were so worried Mr. Armani was going to pass away, like, during his wedding. And we were, like, on tinderhooks being like, he can't. We have to, like, make it through the wedding. But it was really fun because he. He and his husband got married, and they went to, like, the Armani warehouse in Milan where, like, employees get to go. So they were both in these, like, incredible tuxes, and they kind of didn't care because they were so cheap for them. And they just, like, sweated through these incredible tuxes at their. At their wedding. It was. It was fantastic. So I have these, like, very fond memories with. Yeah, with Armani, and I'm trying to convince. I'm getting married next year, and I'm, like, really trying to convince my fiance to, like, go to the Armani warehouse and, like, do what. Do what my friends did and, like, get. Get that thing. But also, like, I don't know, just historically the whole story of Armani. I, like, I worked on a story about Armani and, like, the birth of the personal stylist and what Armani did in terms of dressing celebrities and how he was kind of the first to take celebrities under his wing and kind of show them how to dress and create this sort of, like, casual, personal style that we sort of take for granted that celebrities are supposed to have, like, outside of the studio system. And, like, I just feel so tenderly towards him. And also, oh, my favorite thing are just, like, the pictures of Mr. Armani at work. Like, have you seen that picture of him? Oh, my God, like, doing his shop window?

Lauren Sherman (19:02)

I don't know. I. I'll search it right now.

Avery Trufelman (19:04)

I have to find it.

Lauren Sherman (19:05)

It's so great.

Avery Trufelman (19:06)

Someone, like, passed the Armani store in. In Milan and it's just. Oh, wow. And he's like, 89 years old.

Lauren Sherman (19:14)

At 89 years old, and he's just.

Avery Trufelman (19:17)

Futzing with his own store window. And it's like, that's him. That's him.

Lauren Sherman (19:21)

So good.

Avery Trufelman (19:22)

Really cared.

Lauren Sherman (19:24)

Well, the thing about him that's so remarkable, all I'm not everything is the fact that he's been able to. He was in the news again this weekend, which. Every photo. I'm like, such a handsome man, but.

Avery Trufelman (19:37)

Oh, handsome.

Lauren Sherman (19:38)

But he was in the news again this weekend because Essilore Luxottica, the big eyewear conglomerate that has been partners with them forever on eyewear, announced that they would be interested. So there's a 15% stake in Armani up for grabs. That eventually could be a much bigger stake. But the way he set up. He set up his business really in a really unique way. There's a trust, there's like, to essentially ensure it doesn't get screwed up, but that it. That they do get to move on and build it out and make it modern. He understood that being independent forever was probably not gonna be what happened after he died. And also, I think he wants to control. He wanted to control it even postmortem. So he created this, like, very elaborate scheme. But he mention. Mention, like, three companies that he thought would be good partners. He said Essel, Exotica, l', Oreal, who's their other partner in. In Beauty, and then lvmh. And he mentioned them like, these are. These are companies I'd be interested in. But everybody's sort of taken it as these are the Three companies that are going to get prioritized, and I don't know if that's exactly the case. I think the company that's going to get prioritized by the board is the one that they think is the best partner and probably the one offering the most money for the stake. But Esselor said this weekend that they be interested in like a 5 to 10% stake. The interesting thing to me, and I'm curious to know from you, what you think about this. If esselor takes a 5 to 10% stake and then L' Oreal takes a 5 to 10% stake, and then basically what Esselor said is we don't want to manage the business. We'll let them keep managing it. The current management that's in place, things will change, but it's going to be much more slow because this is the sort of entrenched way of working will still continue. It will change because Obviously a new CEO, Mr. Armani, isn't there to be doing the windows anymore. But, like, if. And I think the likelihood of an LVMH investing is very, very low. It's not. Yeah. And it's not. Honestly, it's not a business that they. It's not a very profitable business. It's. It needs to be totally restructured. It doesn't have. The thing that LVMH has done the last few years is they've invested in companies that are. That have a specialty. So Laura Piana knit cashmere, Remo Luggage, Tiffany Hard diamonds. Like, these are things that are like materials and that they. And they've been able to restructure those businesses super fast and, and make them much, much bigger. Armani is like, their. Armani's specialty is making nice clothes. So it's just a different. It's not even like Zenya, which is like, really ex. What I could see happening here is that, like, Zenya comes in as a clothing partner or something. I don't. Because Zenya's really expanding a lot. We'll see.

Avery Trufelman (22:45)

But I mean, Armani used to have a specialty. You know, they used to be linen.

Lauren Sherman (22:50)

That's. That's interesting. That's a good point. So maybe what do you. When you see this stuff as, you know, you're not only following the money the way I am, whereas I'm like, make it. Make it big. Hire Hedi Slimane and just like, blow it out. What would you like to see? How would you like to see Armani evolve?

Avery Trufelman (23:12)

I mean, of course, I'm like, bring it back to Basic. Like, I can imagine them being like, okay, we're going to make like the summer version of Loro Piano and be like, it's going to be linens. It's gonna be like soft, shoulder light. Yeah. I can just imagine them being like premium linens. Because that was their whole thing initially. And no one had really thought of about making linen like a luxury fabric in that way. But I don't think that's gonna happen. I don't think that's. Yeah, I don't think anyone would ever do that. But also, I don't really want them to get LVMhified. I don't really want them to get sort of. I don't want their headquarters to get redesigned by. What's his name?

Lauren Sherman (23:57)

Hetty?

Avery Trufelman (23:58)

No, no, Peter. Who's the guy who does all their headquarters?

Lauren Sherman (24:01)

Oh, Peter Marino.

Avery Trufelman (24:04)

I don't, I don't want that to happen to the Armani. Like, I think it's great.

Unknown Podcast Host (possibly Michelle Obama or Craig Robinson, but not confirmed) (24:09)

But the thing.

Avery Trufelman (24:09)

Okay, I don't. Humor me here. I don't know if Luxottica has taken over apparel other than Brooks Brothers. Like, do they have experience in this.

Lauren Sherman (24:19)

Before they own Supreme? So they are saying that they would not do that, that they would let the company manage it and they would take this 5 to 10% stake. Yeah. But they do own Supreme. Supreme outright. But I think, I mean, especially given if anyone has any intel of what's happening there, it seems like they really have left supreme alone. Because supreme was owned by VF Corp. Which was. Was not the right fit. And I think this brand, Essilor, was like, I think we can do eyewear and make it a big thing. And my sense is they've left them alone. If that's not true, someone call me, please. But yeah, I mean, I think here, this is my true feeling is I agree that I want it to remain pure. In the. I loved going to Armani shows. They were so pure. I do think that there's a lot of when. When you have a business that is run independently for 50 years and it's essentially family run, there's a lot of bureaucracy that is just like insane that they could strip away. And I think that the people who are running it now will do that, will start that. But I also think there is something to be said in this is an apparel company that has a very low margin. Let's try to re engineer it to be a better, more streamlined business without taking away from what is good about it. And I also think the last 15, 20 years in luxury has been really focused on handbags and building up that business. I don't think what would be nice is if whoever is running it tries to keep this to be a clothing business and not because the handbags are fine, they're cute or whatever. You can make evening bags or shoes or, or. But I think like the thing that the row has done and less in Europe, which is interesting. I was, when I was talking about this with someone the other day that like in Paris, everyone, it's like, yeah, we all talk about the row all the time, but none of us wear it. Whereas I think here people wear it because a lot of people get it secondhand too here.

Avery Trufelman (26:41)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (26:42)

But I think the thing the role has done is they have an incredible handbag and shoe business. It's probably, I don't know if it's the majority of sales or not, but like, you still think about it in terms of clothing and, and I, I think they have sort of. I don't want to say they're modern Armani. It's just a different world now. But, but there is a sense of. And also the way they design, which is taking samples from, you know, Margiel, Hermes and tweaking them, which, like, God bless. But like, I don't think Armani was working in that way. But I think like, there is something to be said of, let's figure out how to make a profitable clothing business and not, and not just like try to push handbags. Nobody wants these handbags anymore. It's just like too much.

Avery Trufelman (27:34)

Yeah. Well, also, I feel like, you know, most of the. I can only speculate that most of Armani's money lies in like Armani Exchange and like the.

Lauren Sherman (27:42)

That. That would be correct. And in the beauty license.

Avery Trufelman (27:45)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (27:46)

And all of that stuff. So they need to figure out how that all works. Hey everyone. Lauren here. You know that moment when advertising stops feeling like a guessing game and becomes something that actually works for your brand? That's what Amazon ads full funnel approach feels like for fashion marketers. Here's what caught my attention. Their AI doesn't just run your campaigns using trillions of signals. It understands your brand, amplifies your reach, drives relevance, selects your placements, and even generates your creative. Then it optimizes automatically across the entire customer journey. No more managing 50 different systems or wondering if your awareness investments are talking to your conversion strategy. And here is the thing. With over 300 million plus AD supported audiences in the US and 90% of fashion audiences already engaging with Amazon ads, you're not just reaching people. You're reaching people who are ready to discover and buy. It's like having a marketing team that never sleeps and gets smarter every day. Amazon Ads where fashion meets full funnel intelligence. Head to advertising.Amazon.com to learn more.

Dr. Mary Claire Haver (29:01)

Hi, I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a board certified obgyn and menopause specialist. My new podcast, Unpaused, is the place for bold, unfiltered conversations about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life. Every week I sit down with medical experts, cultural icons, and powerhouse women to talk about what really matters. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow unpaused with me, Dr. Mary Claire Haver, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

Lauren Sherman (29:34)

What kind of holiday shopping have you been doing? I had a report today on sort of the future of Saks Fifth Avenue and what's going to happen for the holiday season. But I'm hearing from people on the ground and like, reports from the stores that like a lot of the brands are seeing a big slowdown this season in the US And Europe in particular. How much holiday shopping do you do? And, and are you mostly shopping from the upcycling people in Bushwick or are you, do you have like a sort of process of how you get it done?

Avery Trufelman (30:12)

I'm generally not a big holiday shopper. Like, that's kind of my, my family is not big on presents. Like, my father won't like, let us buy him presents, although I did buy. Well, I'm like, will my mom listen to this? Should I, should I not say what I got her? I did get her like a very cool nightgown from this. Have you heard of Sally Fox?

Lauren Sherman (30:40)

No.

Avery Trufelman (30:40)

She's amazing. She's this like plant geneticist and she makes these incredible cotton, she breeds cotton that is no longer white. Like, cotton used to come in all these different colors. And in America it was bred to be white so that it could be dyed lots of different colors. And so she has dyed, she is like bred very carefully. Over many, many years, she's made cotton that is naturally green and brown and red. So it's completely undyed. And then the more you wear it, like, the deeper the color it gets. It's so beautiful. It's like the most amazing thing. And so she saw me wearing my like green cotton nightgown and she was like, I want one. So I got her one in brown. They're lovely. And she also makes like socks and baby clothes. So they're, they're really, really special. So I love getting stuff like that. Like, if I get someone something, it's like one thing. And I got my partner, the, like, he's in the next room. I got my partner the like, Filson Bluntstone boots that are like, I love those.

Lauren Sherman (31:48)

Ooh, maybe I should get mine then.

Avery Trufelman (31:51)

They're. They're. I love. So just like a little special thing. Like, special thing. But yeah, that's kind of like the extent of it. I'm not a big, like, spree shopper, but I. I worry that everybody's kind of doing that this year.

Lauren Sherman (32:04)

Well, I, I do think I was thinking about this because I have a four and a half year old and we are like, not lying about. We're just act. We're. I was very traumatized by finding out that Santa wasn't real. So, like, I still think about. Really ruined my life in some ways. And it was a little too, too early. I think my grandma was like, it's the spirit. I was like, what does that mean?

Avery Trufelman (32:30)

I was.

Lauren Sherman (32:31)

How old were you? I was six. I think I could. Should have waited.

Avery Trufelman (32:33)

I.

Lauren Sherman (32:34)

Child of divorce. I think they should have waited till I was 8. Like, that would have been old, but like, I just knew too much already as a six year old that, like, it really. It really damaged me. So we are not like fully lying about it, but we are just like, yeah, whatever, Santa, just enjoy. Enjoy your life with Santa. But he, I don't know, I think he get, like, we don't spoil him, but we do like, get. If he wants a Lego, we get him Legos. Whatever. Like, it's just. I don't. So there's less of my husband. I come from a family where, like, the gift really means something. My husband's family, like, they barely, they barely did Christmas. So it's just this thing of. I've. We've been together for so long that, like, I don't. I also am less interested in it. Cause he doesn't like, anytime I get him something, he's like, thanks. And it doesn't like, really hit. So I just. I was like, fine, I'm just gonna get you an arrow. Press the fancy aeropress like you said you wanted. Which love aeropress. But it's interesting because I do. I've been thinking about this in the context of my kid. Like, we don't. We only decorate for Christmas. We don't decorate for Halloween. And all these things. Like, I don't know if this is just us or if the culture has changed where, like, people just sort of get what they want when they want it. So Why?

Avery Trufelman (33:56)

I feel that way too. I feel that way too.

Lauren Sherman (34:00)

Yeah. Like, I get one gift a year, and I. Which. This started last year because I really wanted a second and Hermes bag. And I was like, if you get me this, nothing else for the rest of the year, it's like, fine. So this year, I got Phoebe Filo earrings, and I'm already wearing them. I'm not gonna get anything on Christmas morning. And that's fine. But I wonder if there is just, like, a sort of shift in American culture. Look, like, is this happening in Boca Raton Raton or whatever? No, probably not. But, like, I do think there is this sense of everything's so instant now. Why do you need. Why do you need to make a big thing around the holidays and treat yourself culture?

Avery Trufelman (34:43)

I'm remembering that, like, there's this tweet that I think this. I. I always joke that we were going to once. That once upon a time we were going to quote Twitter like it was Confucius or like, the Quran or something. And then, like, now I'm already doing it. I'm like, as Twitter once said, as the prophet.

Lauren Sherman (35:00)

I miss Twitter so much, too. I tried to go back the other day and notice, no me fry still on it. I was like, bless, bless. Like, she's still really in it. And I was like, I'm so happy you're here. And then I never went back.

Avery Trufelman (35:13)

Yeah, good, good. Good for her. But I think of this tweet all the time that was like, I'm gonna. Like, I'm gonna treat myself today like. Or what is it? It's like, me, who's denied myself nothing. I'm going to treat myself today. And it's like, that's how I am. I'm like, yeah, sure, I deserve this, even though I've never not deserved it. Like, yesterday, I bought myself a really nice pen. Like, a really nice pen. It's very embarrassing. I love fountain pens. I, like, can't resist them. And that's, like, my little treat that I keep giving myself. I just can't stop with the fountain pens. And I also think they're a great present for everybody.

Lauren Sherman (35:47)

They are a good gift. I feel like if you get one that you like and you like the way it writes, to just have it and make it your signature. Unfortunately, the notebook that I really loved is harder and harder to find.

Avery Trufelman (36:00)

What is.

Lauren Sherman (36:02)

Was one of those life stationary notebooks. But it was a. It's a. What are those called? Stenographer notebook. But it's not. Greg ruled, so it doesn't have a line down the middle. And it was the perfect reporting notebook. And they still make it Greg ruled. But, like, for years, I was just stocking up the non Greg ruled one, and there is this, like, silly DTC company that makes the non grade Great ruled stenographer's notebook. It's just like, the perfect size for an interview. It's the perfect. It's. It's just the easiest thing for me. But it is, like, a little bit of a cheesy. It, like, says something like the reporter on it or something. I don't know. It's just, like, too much. It's probably out of business already. But that's so cool.

Avery Trufelman (36:52)

That's so cool.

Lauren Sherman (36:53)

But you're right, that. That is a very nice. A nice gift. But you're right.

Avery Trufelman (36:59)

I was like. But when I was debating this was yesterday, I was like, should I buy this? Should I, like, wait for the holidays? Like, no, I'm gonna get it now. I was like, yeah, what is this in the culture? That's like, I need it. When will. Well, maybe because, like, also because things come in and out of stores so quickly, I'm like, if I miss this, it might be gone. Like, I could lose the chance to get this thing.

Lauren Sherman (37:21)

Yeah. There is a sense of. Of last chance, instant life. And what will you do without it? This is the life we lead. So what you've done with articles of interest is sort of like the opposite of that. It's not instant. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of effort. And you're really telling, like, a full story, which you are so good at.

Avery Trufelman (37:46)

Transitions. That's amazing.

Lauren Sherman (37:49)

I am trying.

Avery Trufelman (37:50)

You're amazing.

Lauren Sherman (37:51)

Thank you. Thank you. Tell me about. Let's talk for people who have not listened ever, which I'm sure the overlap is very high, and that won't be the case. But tell me about, like, the sort of concept of it. Cause I've been listening to you. I listened to you on the Cut, like, when you were doing their podcast. I've been listening to you forever. You are a professional. We love having professional podcasts on fashion people, podcasters. But tell me about the sort of concept with the series and what this series in particular, how you sort of came up with it and what you're trying to say with it.

Avery Trufelman (38:30)

So I started. Well, so I started out. I am a Nepo baby. My parents met working in radio, and so I just, like, wanted to work in radio more than anything else.

Lauren Sherman (38:44)

Amazing.

Avery Trufelman (38:45)

It's really funny. They would, like, tell Me stories about, like, they met working at wnyc and they. I have these amazing pictures of my mom with, like, her big 80s hair and her big 80s earrings, like, smoking cigarettes and cutting tape with a knife and talking about how, like, Allen Ginsberg would wander in. And I was like, okay, I want to do that. Like, I'll do that with my life. I want to work in radio. Like, podcasting. Podcasting didn't exist yet, and that was just what I wanted to do. I didn't really know the topic, but I sort of ended up working for this podcast that was about architecture and design called 99% invisible. And I loved it. But I realized, you know, as we were talking and 99% invisible is this amazing show. It's mostly about architecture and graphic design and industrial design. And I worked there for five years before I realized, like, we weren't really talking about clothing design. And it's as important a design lens as the rest of the world. And so I started Articles of interest within that show, and I basically was like, oh, why don't we take the design lens that the. The design criticism lens that's often applied to, like, architecture criticism or design criticism, and apply it to fashion. And so that's kind of the idea behind Articles of Interest is like a design critic lens to fashion, which means it's very, like, history based and very, like, theory based. And so it's like, you know, where does paisley come from? Why do women's clothes have no pockets? And questions that I think are very, like, podcasty on the surface, but I'm always really surprised by the answers. I end up being, like, very shocked by the things that we end up finding.

Lauren Sherman (40:31)

Something you just said that really just got to my core, which is that generally fashion criticism is so emotional. Yeah, it is so emotional. And you just know the person, you can't trust them because it's just about what they like. And, you know, the way I approach this stuff is through the lens of the business side. So I'll be like, you know, I really didn't like this, but I know it's gonna sell in these five different ways. And talk. But it is still. And it's funny. We just had David Marks on for his new book. I love his new book.

Avery Trufelman (41:06)

It's so good.

Lauren Sherman (41:07)

It's so great. But I think you and he share that ability to say more about why clothing is important by sharing its history in, like, great detail. And that is, like, it's very much show don't tell and. And you. If you give someone an explanation of why something exists. It's just like, becomes much more powerful.

Avery Trufelman (41:33)

Thanks. Yeah. And, and that's the other thing is, like, I think it's really fun talking about clothes. And I guess this is very similar to what David does to, like, talk about clothes when you can't see them, because then it's really not about what they look like. It's just more about what they mean and what they, what they, what they represent, the feeling they impart. So, like, right now I'm working on this series about military clothes and outdoor clothes, neither of which I particularly like aesthetically or wear. And the nice thing is, if you're not looking at them, if you're just listening to stories about them, you can corn. You can kind of suspend your judgment, I think, because we're so trained to look at clothes as consumers and be like, I would wear that. I wouldn't wear that. I like that. I don't like that. It's kind of nice to just not look at them and just listen to the stories behind them.

Optum Representative (42:30)

At Optum, we're transforming the pharmacy system, bringing real time, pricing, transparency, and saving consumers over a billion dollars last year. We serve 62 million Americans not just with medicine, but with guidance, support, and care tailored to every unique need. Because at Optum, we understand behind every prescription is a person. Visit optum.com redefinerx to see how we are redefining pharmacy care for good.

Lauren Sherman (42:58)

Do you ever stop and think about how wild it is that you spend so much on rent every month and get absolutely nothing back for it? BILT is the loyalty program for renters that rewards you for your biggest monthly expense. Rent. You pay your rent through BILT and earn points every month. Points you can redeem towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, Amazon.com purchases, fitness classes, and so much more. There are even exclusive perks from more than 45,000 local merchants. So every time you grab coffee, order dinner, or shop nearby, you're earning built points on top of your usual cards rewards. Personally, I'd use it to take more boutique fitness classes. I especially love the ones with infrared, sauna, weights, and just way too much time. I need to chill out on the exercise. It's finally a way to make rent feel a little less painful and a lot more rewarding. Join the loyalty program for renters@joinbuilt.com fashion that's J-O I N B I L T.com fashion make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. What made you decide to write about that. I want to. To podcast about that. There is a lot of writing involved, I'm sure, but especially given that you're not, like, personally drawn to it.

Avery Trufelman (44:28)

Yeah, I mean, I knew I did this series two years ago about preppy clothes just because I was like, oh, I'll do an episode about, like, I thought I would just do an episode about like, Abercrombie and Fitch or something about whatever, the preppy clothes of my youth. And then I just stuck my foot in a river and it ended up being an ocean and it ended up being this like seven part series about, like, where preppy clothes come from. I was like, whoa, that was a longer journey than I thought I would go on. And I realized that the story of, like, what is American style and what is American clothing? Is kind of a massive one. Because American fashion. Well, like, what is. Well, what? Like, to talk about American style, you kind of have to define, like, what is America? Because American style is such a distinctive thing. Millions of people all over the world wake up and they sort of dress like Americans. In almost every country, it's kind of okay to wear a T shirt and jeans. And it's like, why? Why is it so okay for so many people to dress like Americans? And, you know, the reductive answer is like, because of our movies. But that really can't just be it, you know. And so, and starting to do this research into preppy clothes made me realize, like, oh, there are many, many, many different historical, political, economic forces, as you well know, that shape what we wear. And so after I did that series, I was like, I think the next logical answer is to look at the military because I think there are a few different pillars of, like, what makes American clothes. I think one is like, preppy clothes and the next one is the military. Because you can watch, like, any fashion tiktoker will be like, did you know, like, khakis come from the military? Or like T shirts come from the military? Or like most rudimentary menswear. Almost all menswear comes from the military. So I just wanted to do a series on the military. And then once I scratched down like one inch, this connection with the outdoor industry made itself apparent. And so it's about the connection between the military and the outdoor industry, which is like, they're inextricable. They're so, so, so, so, so tightly connected. And then the next, the other pillar I think of American dress is Western wear. And that's what I want to make the next series about.

Lauren Sherman (46:56)

Oh, amazing. It's Interesting because it's also what is in the zeitgeist. And obviously there's. The last few years, gorpcore has been a big. I don't know if that word existed before Blackbird, spy plane. But you know the idea of like fetishizing outdoor gear.

Avery Trufelman (47:14)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (47:14)

I think western wear is such a thing right now. I'm a big fan of Landman. I think it's a great show. Everyone should watch it. But have you watched it?

Avery Trufelman (47:26)

No, it's okay.

Dr. Mary Claire Haver (47:28)

Okay.

Lauren Sherman (47:28)

I am not a Taylor Sheridan person. I. I couldn't watch. I don't even remember the name of his first show that everybody watched, Yellowstone. I couldn't watch it. It was not for me. Landman is like, if you. If you listen to how long gone you will. Not that I do a lot. No offense, guys, but I just mean like people who like, live on the coast and are kind of snobby. Yeah, I don't want to use that phrase. But yes, it is. For some reason, I don't know if it's. I'm trying to figure it out and someone needs to write an essay. But it is the show for people who would never watch a Taylor Sheridan show, really. I think it's because, like Billy Bob Thornton and Demi Moore and Ally Lauder, they're so amazing. The clothes are really great. Like, the costumes are good. And then also it's just the storyline. There's something about the show that everyone I know who's watched it loves it. And I tried to watch Yellowstone and I was like, these people, they're not good looking enough for me. Like, it's not enough. I. So I would say I highly. Especially because you're doing this western wear thing. But back. Back to this idea of like, what is American fashion? To me, what comes down to. And it can all be like, reduced to. Is sport and like physical activity. And I don't know if that's because when people came here, they had like really difficult times and had to like physically take care of themselves. And then there were like a lot of wars. I don't know. But there's something about. It's all. And people call it. Used to call it sportswear, like the sort of American ready to wear. I think that's a difficult word to use because now you use sportswear as what people wear, leggings or whatever, but it still means like Halston khaki blazer or. And so it all kind of comes back to this idea of physical activity, which is just such a fascinating thing. And you're so Right. About everybody sort of dresses like an American. And you see it in the way preppy is appropriated not only in Japan, but in England, or by Jonathan Anderson, an Irish guy, or by the French. Like, the French preppy versus the American preppy and all of. Or the Italian preppy. Like, there are all these things that sort of. Just the way Levi's. Like, the other day I had a pair of Levi's on, and my kid said, oh, daddy has those, too. And I said, well, yeah, everybody has them.

Avery Trufelman (50:14)

Exactly. Or even in cultures where, like, regional dress is still very much alive and well. Like in. You know, I was talking to Prabhul Gurung, and he's like, yeah, you can wear a sari or you can wear a T shirt and jeans. You know, in Nepal, it's, like, totally. In places where it's alive and well, it's, like, completely viable. And it's kind of interesting that. I don't know. I think America has many legacies, but I wonder if this will be one of our more lasting ones. Is, like, the visual. The look of being American.

Lauren Sherman (50:48)

Yes.

Avery Trufelman (50:48)

Is so potent. And this idea of sportswear, activewear, whatever you want to call it, is so tied up in, like, what colonizers thought American ness would mean. Right? Like, they came over to this new country and they were like, this is my chance to prove how rugged I am. And it was all about, like, yeah, dressing for motion. Like, dressing to be a hunter. And it's funny. Like, in this series that I'm working on now, the funny thing is, you know, I was talking to this historian, Rachel S. Gross, who wrote this excellent book called Shopping all the Way to the woods. And she writes about how even from, like, the earliest, earliest days of the founding of this country, it was like, you know, it's like, kind of a thing to rib people in the gorpcore movement. It's like you're dressing way too intense to, like, walk your dog. You know, you're wearing, like, this hardcore gear to, like, whatever, do. Do nothing, to, like, get in your car and live your boring indoors life. But she was saying, like, when people. When Europeans came to America, they didn't know how to dress for this environment. They didn't know how to dress for this new landscape. And so they also, like, went shopping for extremely hardcore clothes. Like, they went to indigenous women and, like, bought buckskin suits to, like, look more hardcore than they were. Like, this is. This is who we are. Like, this is our thing. And, like, we've been doing, like, versions of this gorpcore stuff forever. And it's like, oh, my God. This is like. This is what Johnny Appleseed did. This is like a version of that. It's wild.

Lauren Sherman (52:37)

This is why people should not dismiss clothes as being, like, a shallow, dumb topic. Not at all. Because it's, like, the core of who we are.

Avery Trufelman (52:48)

Totally. And the best part is, like, guys would lie about it. Like, Teddy Roosevelt would lie. You know, he'd be like, I totally made this. And the more that we ignore it or be like, it doesn't matter. It's like you're just letting the lie happen. Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (53:03)

Yes. It's. Next time you. Come on. We're going to just talk about the, like, psychological.

Dr. Mary Claire Haver (53:10)

The.

Lauren Sherman (53:10)

The psychology of how people dress and what it says about who they are and why people are so insecure about it.

Avery Trufelman (53:18)

But that's. I.

Lauren Sherman (53:19)

That, I think is for another. We've. Before we go, this. So, everyone, anyone who hasn't downloaded articles of interest, the Gear series should start. It's not totally finished, but there are several episodes available to you. And also, this is a great thing to listen to during this. This week, Thanksgiving, and instead of going shopping on Black Friday, just listen to Avery and then maybe, like, do some research and buy something on ebay or something. Some vintage. What. What is the thing that you've learned so far in this series that you think is, like, the most interesting tidbit or, like, insight?

Avery Trufelman (54:00)

Ooh. I mean, I've just, like, met a lot of members of the armed forces. I've just, like, met a lot of soldiers. Yeah. And that's been the most powerful thing, which is so nuts because, like, I just hadn't before, which is so weird that I've been just so cut off from the military. And honestly, like. And I thought it was. I thought it was more of a political divide than it was. I was like, I don't really have anything in common with soldiers. And they're just like, there are a lot of different people in the military. Just, like, there are a lot of different people who are not in the military. And they're like. They're awesome. Like, some of my friends are in the military now, you know, and they all feel a lot of different ways about their job. You know, I just heard. I just heard a. And they all feel real. They all have a lot of really interesting opinions about their uniforms. Oh, my God. I've just been getting the most interesting emails. Like, this one woman emailed me, and she was like, my wife is in the Coast Guard, and I'm a firefighter, and an emt, and they just changed my uniform to make it navy blue. And so now I dress more like my wife. And so people think that, like, I'm a cop when I come in to help people as an emt, and they're like, no, thanks. And she's like, no, no, no. I'm here to save your life. And she's like, clearly, I don't mind. Like, I'm not against. I don't dislike the police, but I don't want to look like police when I'm coming to save someone's. Like, people have really interesting, nuanced thoughts about their uniforms. And now I'm like, I might just devote the rest of my life talking to, like, people who are in armed services, because they all have, like, really interest. And I just heard from someone in Space Force, and he's like, I have a lot of interesting thoughts about, like, what people think Space Force is for and how it's evolved. Like, no one knows what it is. Like, I used to be in the Air Force, and now it's changed.

Lauren Sherman (56:05)

It's just.

Avery Trufelman (56:06)

I just think it's really fascinating, especially in this moment when we're actively being pitted against each other. Like, the President is trying to force the military on civilians that, like, a lot of them also hate this too. Like, they don't like this either. It's really interesting.

Lauren Sherman (56:27)

The perception of a blue uniform being cop is. Is. It's so that's fascinating. I noticed the last time of the time before I was in New York, the West 4th street stop, there's some sort of military there. I don't know what they're doing, but it just creates another. Like, you're kind of used to seeing that in Europe, but here. Yeah, I think, like, I. Yes, but it is a thing of. It just creates a. It's like these. They're not. They're there for a reason. I don't know why they're there.

Avery Trufelman (57:05)

No, totally. And then also creates a different energy and the confusion of camouflage. Like, in the States, there are a lot of, like, police and camouflage, or there are lots of, like, people in camouflage. And you're like, what are you? Are you police? Are you Border patrol? And I didn't realize, and I never thought to question how much authority is being blurred by these, like, mixed up uniforms. And I also never thought that you could, like, talk to people, you know, like, that you could just go up and be like, hey, who are you? You know, which is obviously easier for me to do as a white woman to come up and Be like, hey, what's up? But, like, you kind of can. Yeah. I don't know. It just really changed my. My attitude towards authority in this. In this interesting way. Yeah, it's really strange.

Lauren Sherman (57:55)

That's really interesting. Well, I. Get out of here.

Avery Trufelman (57:58)

Get out of America.

Lauren Sherman (57:59)

Everybody needs to listen to articles of interest so that they can. We can come together as a country.

Avery Trufelman (58:07)

Or at least question what the hell is going on.

Lauren Sherman (58:12)

Well, I mean, this is what it comes down to always in this. Very reductive for me to say, but, like, the lack of critical thinking in this country is the. The. The core of all of our problems, all of them. Like, if there was critical thinking taught in school when kids were 5 years old, a lot of this wouldn't happen. And I don't understand why people don't understand that. Like, there's just no critical thinking. There's no. Everything is so reductive and. And also binary and. And nobody is thinking more than they feel that they need to or they're told to. And a lot of that has to do with. You're not. You're not taught to question things. And. And so I hope that people listening to your podcast start questioning things.

Avery Trufelman (59:01)

Thanks. Yeah, I hope so, too. It's like a. Yeah, it's a scary time. So it's, like, given me something to at least feel like, you know, it makes me feel like fashion is a part of something that's, like, larger in this big world. And it is. And it is.

Lauren Sherman (59:16)

It is. It is. Avery, this was such a pleasure. You have to come back.

Avery Trufelman (59:19)

Oh, I agree.

Lauren Sherman (59:20)

Next year, anytime. You don't need. You don't need to be doing any. You don't need a new season. You could just come back to chit chat. This was super great and honored, and congrats again on the series. It is truly remarkable, and I look forward to you doing more and more and more because your voice is so important in. In this industry. Everybody should be listening and reading what. What you're. What you're saying and writing.

Avery Trufelman (59:47)

Thank you so much. It's an honor to be in the Mutual Appreciation Club.

Lauren Sherman (59:51)

So fun. Have a great Thanksgiving.

Avery Trufelman (59:54)

Thank you.

Lauren Sherman (59:55)

You too. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman, and Bob Tabador.

Sommsation Representative (60:23)

You know how so many wines feel the same this Black Friday. Sommsation is all about breaking from the bland Sommsation team of expert sommeliers have curated rare and remarkable wines, bottles you won't find on most shelves made by independent winemakers with real stories behind them. It's not just wine delivery, it's like being personally guided by an expert through small production wines you'll actually want to share with the people in your life. Right now, psalmsation is offering 20% off select wines, plus complimentary ground shipping for Black Friday. Whether you're gifting or restocking your cellar, this is the time to discover something new and extraordinary. Join the table of the bold. Shop their wines@somsation.com fashionpeople that's S O M M S A-T-I-O-N.com fashionpeople exclusions may apply.