Nice Guy Nordstrom

Summary

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Fashion People – "Nice Guy Nordstrom"

Host: Lauren Sherman
Guest: Pete Nordstrom, Co-CEO, Nordstrom
Date: September 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode offers a rare, candid conversation with Pete Nordstrom, co-CEO of Nordstrom and a fourth-generation steward of the legendary American retail family. Host Lauren Sherman dives into the evolution and resilience of Nordstrom, the challenges and opportunities of modern multi-brand retail, and the future of the department store in an age increasingly dominated by direct-to-consumer models and digital transformation. The discussion weaves personal history, family business dynamics, industry innovation, and reflections on major business decisions—including Nordstrom's recent move to go private.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nordstrom Family Legacy and Origins

• Company Origins:
  • Nordstrom founded in 1901 by Pete’s great-grandfather, a Swedish immigrant; originally just a shoe store in Seattle ([20:16 – 23:30]).
• Evolution Through Generations:
  • Each generation expanded the business, from shoes to apparel, from local to national, and finally taking the company public for growth capital ([23:30 – 27:44]).
  • Quote: “The trick is, is to be a brand with heritage, not a heritage brand. … We just don't want to celebrate being old. We want to try to celebrate being relevant.” – Pete Nordstrom ([19:08])

2. Growing Up in the Business

• Pete details his summer jobs in the store, selling women’s shoes as a teenager, and how working in retail was positioned as hard, humble work—rather than a predetermined legacy ([25:14 – 27:44]).

3. Family Business Dynamics & Succession

• Fourth Generation Challenges:
  • Importance of humility and a promote-from-within mentality.
  • The transition from a non-family CEO back to family leadership after internal and external pressures ([34:58 – 39:46]).
  • Quote: “We just didn't want to be known as the generation of Nordstrom’s that screwed it up.” – Pete Nordstrom ([35:52])
• Unique Ownership Model:
  • Unlike some peers, Nordstrom’s family doesn’t have preferred shares or absolute control; at most, the extended family owned about a third of shares—“we weren't entitled to it either” ([36:43]).

4. Nordstrom’s Strategy for Staying Relevant

• Merchandising and Brand Mix:
  • Pursuing a curation that is as renowned for what Nordstrom sells as for how they're sold ([42:13 – 45:00]).
  • Bringing in talent like Jeffrey Kalinsky (luxury/designer expertise) and entering strategic partnerships (e.g., Topshop, Everlane, Skims) ([47:15 – 53:35]).
• Quote:
  • “We used to go and talk to the brands, the designer brands, like, do you really want to be in the luxury ghetto where it's just nothing but pure-play luxury?” – Pete ([55:24])
• Younger, Modern Customer:
  • Commitment to constantly updating the brand and attracting new customers, noting, “If you're not actually trying to get younger, you're going to get older because all your customers get a year older every year.” – Pete ([45:17])

5. Department Store Industry Turbulence & Adaptation

• Changing Retail Landscape:
  • Host Laura lays out the intense competitive challenges, from the fall of Barneys to the rise and fall of DTC and marketplace players ([63:52 – 66:03]).
  • Pete acknowledges the industry’s constant state of flux, especially as brick-and-mortar’s role evolves ([66:04 – 69:29]).
  • Personal loss: The death of Blake Nordstrom (2019) disrupted company leadership and confidence at a critical moment ([66:51]).
• Going Private:
  • Motivation: Stock undervaluation, activist investors, public company pressures, and lack of sufficient growth stories led to the decision ([69:30 – 73:33]).
  • Structure: Partnering with Liverpool, a Mexican retail giant, as a 51/49 split—“They don’t want to run it. … We own 51, they own 49” ([76:16]).

6. Reimagining the Customer and the Store

• Hybrid Shopping Experience:
  • Blend of digital and physical retail is essential; stores are crucial for discovery, instant gratification, returns, and premium service ([79:58 – 82:33]).
  • Quote: “A good guy for us is that creates a trip to a store… what a store does that online does not do as well is discovery.” – Pete ([80:36])
• Investing in Meaningful Experiences:
  • Liverpool’s investment enables reinvestment in stores and deeper customer focus, not just cost-cutting ([76:16 – 79:56]).

7. Human Touch: Personal Styling and Brand Credibility

• Bringing in Top Talent:
  • High-profile hires like stylist Katherine Bloom give Nordstrom new cachet and ability to serve high-touch clientele, reflecting personalized service as a differentiator ([83:13 – 87:46]).
  • “What wouldn’t we do to get Katherine Blum? I mean, she is a huge difference maker. … She can lift and shift over to our business…” – Pete ([84:16])
• Panoramic Merchandising:
  • “Her customers are really happy. They were able to get everything they want and some things that was harder for them to get through Katherine, and Katherine’s happy. She’s got a bigger closet to sell from.” ([87:46])

8. Pete’s Podcast and Cultivating Curiosity

• The podcast is a window into company values: authenticity, staying close to the culture, and listening to entrepreneurs and internal leaders. Pete credits it with making him a better listener and leader ([89:51 – 93:18]).
• “People like shopping with a company that I think they feel is run by people, and there’s a humanity to it.” ([90:04])
• Notable guests mentioned: Anna Wintour, Kenneth Cole.

9. Looking Forward: State of Multi-brand Retail and Nordstrom’s Place

• Market Outlook:
  • Pete predicts more consolidation, fewer but better stores, and emphasizes relevance, youth appeal, and strong brand partnerships as critical to survival ([93:18 – 97:59]).
  • “There's always room for the best of anything, and if we can be the best of what we do, then there's room for us.” – Pete ([95:43])
  • He emphasizes humility due to the fragility of the business, referencing Barneys’ downfall as a cautionary example ([98:00]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Relevance over Heritage:
  “The trick is, is to be a brand with heritage, not a heritage brand.” – Pete ([19:08])

• On Family Business Survival:
  “There just aren’t that many people like us… It’s a point of interest for almost anyone I talk to. It’s like, how the heck has that worked?” – Pete ([40:48])

• Hiring for Culture:
  “We realized early on our best chance to be successful is the three of us working together with complementary skill sets.” – Pete ([42:28])

• The Power of Good Brands, Not Price Point:
  “We said, you know, a modern person does not dress in head-to-toe Chanel. ... I'm the richest people I know have Nikes in their closet or, you know, a Vuori shirt…” ([55:24])

• On Going Private and Store Investment:
  “We want to really play the long game. … They don’t want to run it, they want us to run it. … That was one of the conditions. We don’t want to buy it [if you’re going to] cash out.” ([76:16])

• Discovery in Physical Retail:
  “A good guy for us is that creates a trip to a store and … discovery. ... [With] a curated thing in a store, that might be a much better alternative and perhaps a more enjoyable one.” ([80:36])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Family History & Public Company Evolution: [19:01 – 29:32]
• Family Business Management & Succession: [33:55 – 40:48]
• Brand Mix & Modernizing Nordstrom: [42:13 – 55:11]
• Industry Disruption & COVID Challenges: [60:09 – 66:03]
• Decision to Go Private: [69:30 – 74:24]
• Changing Customer and Store Experience: [76:16 – 82:33]
• Hiring Katherine Blume: [83:13 – 87:48]
• Podcasting & Industry Curiosity: [89:51 – 93:18]
• State of the Industry & The Future: [93:18 – 98:37]

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Tone & Final Thoughts

The conversation is frank, warm, and intellectually curious, balancing personal anecdotes and practical business insight. Pete Nordstrom embodies the ethos he describes—humility, adaptability, and respect for both people and brand legacy. The episode is a master class in retail leadership, brand stewardship, and how a 120+ year-old retailer is navigating uncertainty while staying both relevant and respected.

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For more in-depth industry reporting, Lauren Sherman’s Line Sheet at Puck is recommended.

Transcript

[Lauren Sherman]

You know, those little habits that quietly upgrade your whole day. For me, it starts the moment I wake up with a giant glass of water. The breakfast of champions. Before coffee, before making my kids lunch, I grab a bottle of Fiji Water to get hydrated. Because hydration is my number one priority in life. Seriously, Fiji Water isn't just refreshing. It's Earth's fun finest water. It comes from the islands of Fiji, filtered through ancient volcanic rock and naturally preserved from external elements. It's bottled at the source and untouched by man until you unscrew the cap. Here's what makes it different. Fiji Water has a perfectly balanced 7.7 ph and has more than double the electrolytes as the other two top premium bottled water brands, giving its signature soft, smooth taste. Unlike the other two top premium bottled water brands, Fiji Water's electrolytes are 100% naturally occurring. Fiji Water is also leading the way in sustainability. Since 2022, their 330 and 500 milliliter bottles have been made using 100% recycled plastic. Fiji Water is the number one premium importer bottled water brand in the US and it's easy to see why Fiji Water is Earth's finest water. Buying a car in Carvana was so easy. I was able to finance it through them. I just. Whoa, wait, you mean finance? Yeah, finance. Got pre qualified for a Carvana auto loan, entered my terms and shot from thousands of great car options all within my budget. That's cool. But financing through Carvana was so easy. Financed, done. And I get to pick up my car from their Carvana vending machine tomorrow. Financed, right? That's what they said. You can spend time trying to pronounce financing or. Or you can actually finance and buy your car. Today on car finance financing subject to credit approval. Additional terms and conditions may apply. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, running fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show is Pete Nordstrom, co CEO of Nordstrom. We discuss the family business, the art of relevance, the future of retail, and so much more. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, Finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of fashion people get a discount. Just go to Puck News fashionpeople to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Tuesday everyone. I hope you did not work yesterday if you live in the US because it was Labor Day. I didn't work, which is why I'm recording this very, very, very, very early. So apologies if some big news came out of Europe because they are very much back to work. I hope you had fun at the Charles Porch wedding if you attended. I also hope that by the time this publishes, there are images from the wedding and looks. This wedding sounds big enough to be on Getty Images. I heard that it was at the Bristol one. They rented the whole thing out. But I'm recording this again like several days in advance, so maybe that's not true. Anyway, I can't wait. If you don't know who Charles Poarch is, he's head of partnerships at Instagram and he, he's very well connected. He has lots of cool, lots of famous friends and lots of fashion people attended or were attending. So I'm very excited for it. I think it'll get a good amount of coverage. His bachelor party was truly epic. I love following it. It was, he's friends with like all the celebrities that I like and find I, I would say entertaining in the best way possible. I don't mean that in a mean way. He's someone I like to follow and you should check out his wedding and congrats to the happy couple. Anyway, if there is big news out of Europe, I'll cover it, obviously. Today, Sarah Shapiro is slated to take a look at the business of basics, which have become a commodity. And how do you sell basics? But then there are the all these cool new brands like Lisette and Skull Studio and all these things that are kind of doing in a really interesting way. And. And so that's what Sarah's meant to do. Again, I'm recording this days beforehand, so maybe something comes up, she holds off. She will do that story someday. Don't copy us. I do love when the other outlets just like fully copy one of Sarah's stories three weeks later. It cracks me up. But anyway, be lots of fun reporting as the week goes on and as the month goes on. Fashion month is on its way. I'm going to be in New York. I think it's next week. Oh yeah, it's next week. And then it's just off to the races. 12 debuts. It's going to be crazy. I Hope to see you in Europe or in New York or somewhere either in between shows or at a fashion show. I also, before we get into this conversation with Pete, which I just. He's the best. I just love him. I love retailers. And it was good to talk to him. He was really frank about Nordstrom's Take private. But also, you know, the benefits of running a public company. The challenges of multiband retail. The challenges of retail in general, all of that. And we had a great conversation. But I did also. I think I mentioned this briefly to him when we were talking. I can't remember. I. During my vacation. So I wasn't working. But, you know, you're always thinking. And I went up. I did like a solo trip with my kid, Mommy and me. Cause I'm about to travel a lot. So we needed some quality time together up to Montecito. And I stayed at the Rosewood Miramar. I got a really insane deal. So don't think, you know, I gotta just say also, I. I just generally don't. Even if I was like, super loaded, I would not be spending it on hotel rooms. But I did get a really good deal and I'm very grateful for that. And it was such a pleasure and a privilege to stay there. So that hotel is owned by Rick Caruso. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to stay there also. It's great for kids. And it's just. It's like a very easy situation if you have a child. And I don't really like the beach. And the beach was amazing. And that was. That part of it especially was really great in the pool and. And all the free popcorn and movie night at the pool. Even though my kid was like, I no, I'm not interested in watching 101 Dalmatians. I thought this was finding you mill. Anyway, we had a. We had like a truly great time. And huge kudos to Rich Crusoe, who like this service industry. He's in the service industry. He understands that. It was just like going to one of his malls, except like a really, really fancy hotel. Anyway, I would say that the retail element of it in Montecito is absolutely fascinating. And if you are interested in, like, development and how development is changing in the country and. And what happened to these sort of secondary and tertiary cities post covet. Like so many people moved to them full time during COVID but then did they move back? I think Montecito is unique because it's not that far from Los Angeles. And also LA is, I think San Francisco and la There was just a report that said they are the cities where people haven't returned to the office. It's just not like, I think because people work in these writer rooms, they could do it on zoom. There isn't a huge return to work thing going on. Like in New York. I feel like every. Every big company, 991-9 2 today, everyone is like, you have to be at work four times a week. Which honestly, I am very pro. But not in LA because the traffic is so bad. Anyway, the point being that I think a lot of people stayed. I don't think it was a thing where they moved up there and they were like, I want to get back to the city because LA isn't really a city. And. And so what I saw were people who felt like they probably used to live in L. A and that they were living in Montecito now. And so there's been a ton of development. So the Caruso property is unique because they have a Webster and a Goop. So those are their two multiband retail. I don't know if you can get better from a, like, socioeconomic background thing. Like, I saw a lady at the beach with a Menlo park book bag. And they were definitely French, but obviously lived in Silicon Valley. Like, that's the target audience for the Webster and for goop. The other thing that was interesting is all the standalone brand stores. So the way it is, there's like a big. A big, like center hotel space. And then they have bungalows and other spaces for other rooms and things like that. So the GOOP and the. The. I actually never saw the Goop. I didn't go into it. But the Webster is right on the big giant house space. And then there are these bungalows with a Zenya, a Laura Piana, a Bottega Veneta or Veneta and Brunello Cucinelli. These are all brands that are doing really, really well right now compared to the rest of the industry. And I just thought it was very, very unique. Like, did they decide. Are they. Is. Does it show that they are savvy about who their customer is? Does it show that Caruso's people understand what the mix should be for this group and they were able to woo the right. The right brands. Anyway, it was really interesting to me because it was the right. It was the right brands. And I went into the Laura Piana. It was gorgeous. And honestly was like, you know, if I had. If I felt like spending money and I wasn't a person who goes to Europe all the Time and know that you can kind of get this stuff for cheaper in Europe. I probably would have bought something because it's like a very fun experience. There are two other shopping places in Montecito that I think are really worth your time. In terms of seeing how people with money spend. So the Montecito Country Mart is also Jim Rosenfeld Field, the guy behind Marin Country Mart. But obviously Brentwood Country Mart, the beginning of it. And I've been there a million times, long before I moved to la. Like going up through Santa Barbara county, you know, you stop by the Country Mart. So I spent a lot of time there. I ate dinner at Patina and then I also walked around. But the place I thought was. I also went to this place called Coral Casino, which was truly amazing. And thank you to my friends who invited me because it is not easy to go there. You have to have a membership. And it's like a pool club. And I had a great time. It's owned by that guy, Ty Warner. So, anyway, that was very interesting. I tell you all about my vacation, but it was just so fun. It was like a total fantasy. Anyway, back to the Montecito Country Mart. And then there's this place called the Post, which the guys who developed Platform and also Sportsman's Lodge in LA did. I have to say, the Post gets a D minus from me. I was shocked. I like those guys. I've met them. I think they're really smart. I think that they try really hard. One thing I will say is when the Platform first. When Platform first opened, it was not there. And now I think it's like a real meeting place. I would say the Post. The issue with the Post is I'm going to look up. So the Post is this new development in Montecito or something. Santa Barbara? I don't know. They're right next to each other. It's really hard to tell. It's two minutes away from Rosewood, Miramar. And sorry this is going so long, but I do think you all will be interested in this. So the Post is this shopping center that has. I really wanted to go because it has the only Jamie Howler boutique. And Jamie Howler is a really interesting brand that the shoes have become a really big deal. I think she has a big chance of being a global brand, or at least like a US brand, not localized to la. The shoes are very comfortable. She has a clothing line, too, that I think is really nicely done. I think the price value equation is a little complex for it. Because she's making like essentially Stuff that's her personal style. And I think it's good. But I think it might be. I don't know, I just. I think there's probably some tweaks to be done on the, on the clothing front. But I think the shoes are really smart and there's a big opportunity there. So the stores, they have Teller, which is their multi brand retail concept, which I believe they do everything on consignment. So it's the developer guys, they kind of run that. Then the great, which Emily and merits. Amazing. But then they have not even a then. So then they have say khaki. They have this brand Miguel Coronel, which I had not been. It's like more swimwear. Merlette, which is a great Brooklyn based brand. Rlt, which is Rachel Tabb's like vintage store turned sort of basics, the kind of stuff Sarah is writing about today. Then there's brochure Walker, which is like beautiful basics that velvet T shirts, et cetera. Jewelry designer Marissa Mason. Janessa Leone, the hat designer. The point being, look, these are all great brands. And I am not just saying that because I don't want to be a jerk. Like they are great brands. The issue is they are all the same. It feels very homogenous. Like they are trying to get the customer who shops at Jenny Kane and Goop. But the problem and her husband, if you're or you know, anyone can shop at Safe khaki, it doesn't matter gender, they, them, everyone, these brands, you know, it doesn't matter. The point is they're trying to get this very one specific client who they believe lives in Montecito. And I think they're correct. But the issue is it's so boring. Like they need to have a better mix of things. It feels extremely standardized and I just was not inspired at all. Whereas pull up to Bettina on Friday night. You look at the Country Mart, the Montecito Country Mart. They got an eyewear store that's really fancy. I need glasses finally. Even though I went to Warby Parker the other day to get a prescription and he said that I have the. I had the best vision of anyone all week. But I do need reading glasses. Anyway, they have this cool store that's sort of like vintage double RL esque. I forget what it's called but like they have some weird stores. They have a toy store, you know, they always have a post office. You can't just straight up copy the Country Marts. But I do think that it is, I don't know, like, do it your way. And I just think. I don't think the post is there yet. Anyway, highly recommend. If you're going up to my. My advice is go up to Los Alamos, go to Bell's, stay somewhere around there in Solvang, maybe hit up Los Olivos, go to, I think it's called La Cote, the Bell's people's fish restaurant there. Go to the middle of California and then just drive through Santa Marbara and check it out for an afternoon. Or stay at one of these beautiful hotels. And if you love. I don't like the beach that much, so whatever. That would be my suggestion. But the go and check these places out. Like have dinner at Caruso's or stay there for a night. Like stay. Stay at the Roseville Miramar for a night. It's worth it. Like these things are. It's worth it. But if you like this, it's just so interesting. I've talked to a lot of people who grew up in that region and it's changed so much. But if you are like a retail dork like me, I had a great time and I really did relax. But I also was just like this is the, the most interesting place for retail right now if you want to kind of understand what the luxury customer is up to. Anyway, thank you to everyone who I saw up there and who hosted me and who made the weekend great because I had a great time, my kid had a great time, and I learned a lot. Pete Nordstrom, welcome to Fashion People.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Hey, Lauren, thanks for having me on your show.

[Lauren Sherman]

What'd you have for breakfast this morning?

[Pete Nordstrom]

That's a hard. That's the kind of hard hitting questions we're going after here.

[Lauren Sherman]

For sure.

[Pete Nordstrom]

I tend to have the same thing pretty much every morning. I have like a bowl of cereal. That's it.

[Lauren Sherman]

What kind of cereal do you eat?

[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, that's a great question. This morning I had Cheerios and puffins combined. How about that?

[Lauren Sherman]

I like it. Pete, I think this is. There's so much anti cereal rhetoric out there.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Yeah, I think I'm lazy. That's why I do cereal. I don't know.

[Lauren Sherman]

Do you. You don't eat the like protein fortified?

[Pete Nordstrom]

No.

[Lauren Sherman]

Does that exist for Cheerios?

[Pete Nordstrom]

I don't. Did you listen to the latest daily episode that talked about all that protein stuff? It was like the whole episode was about everything you buy now has got like extra protein in it. So I mean, maybe I'm eating that stuff without even knowing it, but I'm not seeking that out.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, no. I Have not listened. I do not listen to the daily. I can give you my thoughts offline about it.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Does that blaspheme me to bring this up on your show? I won't do it.

[Lauren Sherman]

But interesting. Cheerios protein gluten free cinnamon breakfast. Oh, that sounds good. But I bet there's so much terrible stuff in it. I think it's respectable. It's very straightforward and clear. And also sounds delicious.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Yeah, that's what I had for breakfast. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay. So I'm trying to figure out a segue where I could talk about how that sort of no nonsense and still delicious but also practical meal reflects how you have built your career and life. But I'm not sure if it goes that far.

[Pete Nordstrom]

That's digging deep. Okay.

[Lauren Sherman]

So you are one of the family, the Nordstrom family of the famous Nordstrom department stores, which started in Seattle in what year?

[Pete Nordstrom]

1901. We are coming up on our 125th anniversary here.

[Lauren Sherman]

Sounds like a reason to celebrate.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, you know, it's interesting because we talk about that. I mean, just the fact that we're old is not really something to celebrate it. You know, the. The trick is, is to be a brand with. With heritage, not a heritage brand. And so, I mean, there's things we can talk about. I think they're interesting. But, you know, we just don't want to celebrate being old. We want to try to celebrate being relevant. That's. That's the thing.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And I feel like that to me when I look at what you've done in the past, I don't know, 20 years or so at Nordstrom. Is that that sort of relevance thing? So to be clear, you were not there in 1901.

[Pete Nordstrom]

No.

[Lauren Sherman]

So how did you get started in the family business? And also, can you give like a little background on what your, like what part of your family was already in it? And did you always think you were going to end up working there and making it your life's work or.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Okay, well, that's a few questions. Maybe it's best to kind of do the family tree part of it and how I fit into this. Should I start there?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, that's perfect.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Okay. So it was started by my great grandfather. He was a Swedish immigrant, came over here. It was the classic immigrant story. He had $12 in his pocket when he landed here from Sweden and couldn't speak English and didn't have any education and kind of worked his way across the country doing like manual labor and stuff. And he ends up in California. He's doing logging and Stuff like that. And he read in the paper that there was the gold rush in Alaska. So he goes, okay, I'm going to Alaska. And he spent, I think, two years up in Alaska and got some gold. He was able to get out of that experience, first of all, to live to tell the story, which, you know, it was pretty, pretty rough up there in those days doing that deal. And he ended up having, I think it was $13,000, which in those days was a fair amount of money. But it was, I think, enough for him to establish a life in Seattle. He ends up in Seattle. There's a fairly big Scandinavian population up here. I think that was just a comfortable place. I think he knew some people here and he just got started. And there was a Swedish immigrant he knew who was a cobbler and had an interest in starting a shoe business. And my great grandfather's thing is, well, people need shoes. That sounds good. So we invested some of that money into that and he got started. But he didn't know anything about retailing at all. He had no kind of formal education. So, I mean, at least as the story goes, is everything that this company's become has happened based through experiences over generations that shaped the philosophical approach to how things happen. So, you know, his was a story of hardworking person, just, you know, sweat equity, trying to make something. And then, you know, his sons got involved. So the next generation, he had three sons, and they, they bought the business from him in the 20s, I think, at some point, and it was three of them. So they needed to be bigger so that they could all make a living out of it. And so then they sort of have multiple shoe stores and they bought out his original partner and all that. And by the time they were done doing their thing, I believe Nordstrom was the single largest independent shoe retailer in the United States and just a company based out of Seattle. So that was something they were really proud of, took a lot of pride in. It was a big deal in Seattle, but it was a shoe store, nothing more than that. And they had a few locations. And then my dad's generation got involved, and that was my dad and his two cousins. And then a cousin in law was involved in that too. And so that's now the third generation Nordstrom's. And their thing is, okay, well, there's more of them, there's more ambition to do things. And the big tipping point, which I think is actually relevant to this story because it brings you to the present day about us just recently taking the company private, but that's when they took the company public, because the third generations of third generation of Nordstrom's, the three brothers, were retiring and they didn't have anything. Everything they had was tied up in the business and the business wasn't big enough to pay them money upon retirement. Sustaining kind of life. So they had two choices. They were either going to sell the business or they were going to go public. And my dad and his cousins decided, and they were young guys, 30 years old, 32 years old. I don't know, something like that, that they want to take a go of it and become a private company. My dad would tell the story about it was Carter, Holly, hale and May Co. And those kinds of old department store businesses that were really interested in buying them. And I think at the end of the day, they just didn't see themselves working for someone else and they thought they could do it. So they went public. That gave some liquidity to the second generation of Nordstrom's. And then my dad's generation got going on it. And as you know, the whole objective of a public company is growth, and that's what's going to fuel stock price. And so they started thinking about growing. And it was in 1978 that we built our first store in California. And then that was really successful. And that kind of created, you know, the impetus for those guys to create a national company out of it. And then that time they, in the 60s, they got into apparel and it expanded that way. So I'm giving you the Reader's Digest version. So by the time my generation came along, there's a lot more of us in my generation, as you might imagine. And at least for my brothers and I, there was never any expectation that this is what we were obligated to do for a living. I didn't have any idea when I was a kid that this is what I was going to do. I mean, you think about it. I mean, I don't think most teenage boys or young kids, when asked what they want to be when they grow up, talk about being a retailer. It's not what I want to do. I wanted to be a professional basketball player. That's what I thought I could do.

[Lauren Sherman]

You are very tall.

[Pete Nordstrom]

I am tall, yeah. But at a certain point, it became clear in my teenage years that I wasn't probably going to get paid any money to play basketball. So I don't know. For me, I'd always worked at the store during the summers because my dad was that kind of guy. It's like, you need to have a job you know, you can't just hang out here all summer and bug your mother. And he needed, you know, I was working when I was 10, you got to get going. And so I went to where I could get a job and that was here. And So I was 12, I started stocking shoes in the women's shoe department downtown Seattle. And I did that stuff, you know, it wasn't, I didn't work a ton, my dad paid me out of his pocket, but it was stuff I did during the summer. When I was 16, I started selling shoes, started selling women's shoes again. It was a great summer job and it was a means to an end for me. I was like, my parents made it clear, we're not going to buy you a car. You want to have a car. You turn 16, you will give you a chance to make money, but you're going to buy a car. And that's what I want to do. So I wanted to earn enough money where I could buy a car. And so I was able to do that. It wasn't a fancy great car because that's what you can afford when you're, you know, selling shoes as a 16 year old. And I, I enjoyed my summer work and I did that through college. I went to the University of Washington. I was an English major Again, I, I don't know what, I was sure what I was going to do with that, but I really still didn't know if I was going to be in the family business. But what I can tell you while I was in college and the reality starts crashing down on what you might be able to do. You know, I was playing basketball, so I was interested in that maybe I could coach or something. But. Okay, I don't know if I want to do that. But I was. My dad was a compelling figure to me. He was a great guy. He seemed like he really enjoyed his life. He was a super positive example for me and my brothers. And so I said, well, you know, to myself, this is something I can do. This opportunity exists. I mean, there was no kind of big nepotism play about how we got to get these guys prepared for the biggest job. It was just, I knew that there was a promote from within culture in a growing company. And my dad seemed to really enjoy it. And I wasn't looking to run away from my family. I, I like my family and my brothers kind of independently all came to the same. I mean, we're all just 18 months apart. There's three of us, you know, bang, bang, bang. And we all Kind of got started as soon as we were done with college as an assistant manager in the shoe department. Different shoe departments around Seattle. And that's how it started when you.

[Lauren Sherman]

Were coming up and you mentioned Carter Holly Hale, which I wrote about a little bit. When I did that Victoria's Secret book, because Les Wexner tried to buy it, there was something where I think he tried to buy it, or he. Because he thought he could fix multibrand retail in whatever way it was struggling back in the early 80s. And I called one of the guys from CAR, Carter Holly Hale, who lived in LA, and he was like, I'm too old. I don't want to deal with this. And then he died two months later. So I understand. But anyway, the point I wanted to make was, one thing I learned while researching that book was that, and it's very clear, but like the consolidation of the department store industry started in the 70s, essentially. If you look at like data from 1975 versus 1985, the. The amount of commerce happening at department stores just nosedives because specialty retail came up and there was just so much consolidation. And then in the 90s with I don't know what, all the Federated and all those May Group and Macy's and all that stuff, as you kind of came up in the company and your generation became more involved in decision making. What, what I understand what drove your dad and his. His cohort back in the 70s, not to sell, but like, as, as it became more inevitable, how did you all decide? Actually, it's just we don't need. Was it just that the business is good and you didn't need to, or what do you think? The sort of drive, the ability not to have ever taken that route because there have been pretty much no other companies that were able to.

[Pete Nordstrom]

So you may actually sell the company to a bigger company, Is that what you mean?

[Lauren Sherman]

Sure. Or even, or even acquire. I mean, maybe you did do this a little bit.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Yeah, we did little things, but we didn't really grow through acquisition. That was not our thing. It was organic. But to go back though, when you talk about what happened in the 70s and 80s, my impression was a big part of the reason Nordstrom was able to be successful and expand across the country is you had all these regional players that at this point were very mature companies and maybe a little complacent. I mean, you had the mall phenomenon happening at that time. And so everyone was able to kind of build a new store. It all kind of worked. There wasn't a lot of competitive issues. I mean, your point about verticals and stuff was true, but it's still pretty small then. And my impression, you know, I was a kid, but listen, if you were listening to my dad talk about it was like they were able to go into places like Los Angeles and Chicago and Washington, D.C. and just absolutely going and grab market share because the legacy Heritage department stores were there had gotten kind of lazy and not particularly relevant. And Nordstrom was able to come in and feel like a more modern version of that of a department store and just take the business. And they did it really with this singular focus on customer service that created differentiation for them. And I remember, you know, being part of. I was around, you know, 80s and all that we're growing like crazy. And everywhere we went, I mean, it was, it was all successful and it was because people couldn't really figure it out. They're like, well, Nordstrom's coming, so let's redecorate our store. We'll put a new couch in the shoe department and, you know, paint the wall or something. That's going to do it. And I remember my dad and his cousins just saying, those guys are completely missed the point. What we're going to do is we're going to go in there and we're going to treat people well and we're going to go earn that business like just one customer at a time. And we are going to just get right after it and compete for this business. And it was a real badge of honor, I think, and pride around here for people. And that, that served us well for, you know, a couple decades. I mean, if you think about the growth of this company from 78 through like 2015 or whatever, and we were just building stores like crazy, and it all worked pretty much. And so I guess the tipping point came when things came more difficult is when the online business became a real thing. And we were in it early. But if you look at those kind of early 2000s, where all of a sudden there's just another way to think about retailing and there's. There's another element here. And, you know, I think, you know, we embraced that and got in it early and in a way that I think has served the company well. But I don't know, I don't think we ever thought well, first of all, my dad's generation, I think a tipping point for them is when they decided that they wanted to retire. And then, you know, my brothers and cousins, I mean, at that point it was the three of us, my, my two brothers and me and we had three cousins that were all involved. So there's six of us. And this is the mid, late, was it mid-90s. And we were young, I mean in our early 30s. And we're big successful public company at this point. So I don't think it was easy just to throw us in there and say we're running it. So basically what they did, my dad and his cousins, they hired a non Nordstrom family member to run the business. And then we, the six of us reported into this guy. I mean, if you think about it, it's kind of a horrible situation for him to be in is he's caught in this Nordstrom sandwich of third generation or fourth generation. And, and I'll at least speak for my dad. I mean what, he was never really my boss, but in a, in a way kind of was. But what he was was my dad and he thought we were great. We're his kids. So if, if the guy that was responsible for, you know, managing us didn't see it the same way, I don't think my dad and his cousins were very objective about how they might have been evaluating their kids. So that became a bit tense and then. Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's its own chapter how we ended up getting the big job here.

[Lauren Sherman]

So how as a family, because obviously I write about a lot of different families and someone in Hollywood was asking me about the Hermes family yesterday and I was thinking about like, how have they managed through six generations?

[Pete Nordstrom]

Oh wow, that's a lot.

[Lauren Sherman]

And all those people and they still control the company and they seem to get along fairly well. But like, what do you think? Because family run businesses are obviously some. Pretty much every successful business started as a family run business, but they are very unique and they can. There are examples of it working really, really well. You become the richest man in the world and then there are examples of it not working so well and kind of being a total disaster and the company kind of just dissolving. What has been the sort of key to making it work for you all over these years? Thank you.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, I think, look, if you're in retailing, it requires a fair amount of humility in the first place if you're going to do it right, because you got to be connected to what you're not doing well and that's usually played back to you from customers. And if you're really going to be customer centric about it, you got to be open to hearing what they have to say and evolving. So I don't know that Humility is always. And that was just the way my dad and his cousins were. We came from, I mean, they were successful people and they were proud of that. But I mean, there was a hump, there was a humility about it, I suppose, and it was really imposed upon us that this is a much more of a hard work business than it is a brain business. And you know, you work hard, you can be successful. And a lot of that value stuff kind of pulled us through. So I don't know. I mean, I think what made it successful for us is, you know, when we were in it. And over time my three cousins peeled away and it's really just Blake, Eric and myself for their own reasons. And it was all fine. It was not acrimonious. There was no. It just they decided they wanted to do other things and they had the ability to do that. So that was all fine. But for us, I mean, we just didn't want to be known as the generation of Nordstrom's that screwed it up. I mean, at this point the company's got a pretty big reputation and that was made clear to us often. Um, and so when it became our opportunity to run the business, it was, you know, things were getting tougher. I mean, that's when you, you know, the competitive issues you talk about, the changing dynamics of the whole industry was really present and we just didn't want to be known as the generation screwed it up. So I mean, I think it really fueled our, our work ethic around it and our humility about that. But, you know, business wasn't good. And then, you know, the guy that was responsible, you know, was working. My dad and his cousins were on the board and then this guy was the CEO and my brother and I were reporting him as like co presidents. Business was not good. All of a sudden it was rough. And you know, it's a public company and while my dad and his cousins are on the board, I mean they don't, I mean, what's different from our family than maybe other family businesses like this is even though it had gotten to the fourth generation, there wasn't that control element. So like anything like the Dillards or something like that, they own all the voting shares. So I mean they have complete control even if they don't own all the shares. It's a public company. We didn't have that. There was no preferred shares. So our company over time got diluted in terms of family ownership. And by the time we're doing this thing, maybe our family owned a third of It. And that's our extended family. That's everybody. And so we own enough shares to, you know, have seats on the board and be impactful and I think to be considered, but, you know, we weren't entitled to it either. That. That didn't really exist. So I remember really clearly when we got the job. So what happened was they. The CEO got fired, and then the board had to decide what they want to do. And my brothers and I decided we'd like to say we want to do this. We want you to give us a shot. And the board, particularly outside board members, like, yeah, I don't know, you guys are pretty young, and I don't know, you know, might be time to do something different, be more sophisticated and, you know, grow up and not just be a family company. So I don't know what those board meetings are like. I wasn't in it, but I'm sure that was a little rough in terms of how it went with my dad and his cousins. But they interviewed different people. I mean, they interviewed the guy from Neiman Marcus, and they interviewed people from bases, and they interviewed all these guys. And then at a certain point, I think the family, my dad's cousins asserted themselves, says, we are not hiring one of those guys. There's no way we're doing that. So we think you should give these guys a shot. And the board decided to do that. And they. But I remember so clearly, like, the three of us, they brought us and said, okay, look, I want to give you guys the opportunity to run this, but I'll be clear about something. You're not entitled to be here because of what your last name is, and if it doesn't go well, you'll be gone. So if you accept it under those conditions, great. And that didn't. That was like, great, bring it on. Let's do it. And, you know, we got a lot of good support, obviously, from our dads and what have you. And the board, you know, they, in a way, they were supportive us because they were kind of like mentoring us. You know, they viewed us as young guys they were kind of wanted to see succeed. And. And it worked. We had a really good run from, like, 2,000, you know, for quite some time. We had a couple decades of really, really good business and growth and what have you. And it all worked out well. So that's the story, how that went. It never really was like, oh, maybe it's time for us to bail, or we want to sell out, or we just want to be out that, you know, we were in it and we.

[Lauren Sherman]

Were into also feels and then I want to talk about your position in building those past 25 years. But I also feel like a lot of times at companies and this happens at startups, but it also happens at family run businesses where there is this sort of interim CEO who comes in and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Hermes had that. They had a person from outside of the company that was a CEO until ex, who was sort of the chosen one became the CEO. So that is, it can work well.

[Pete Nordstrom]

But as you know though Lauren, it's really rare to get into the fourth generation beyond which is your point about the Hermes family. And that is a really rare situation and it's rare for us. I mean there's very, there's not many people like us. I mean it's a point, it's a point of interest for almost anyone I talk to. It's like how the heck has that worked? And have you been able to work with your family and make this thing.

[Lauren Sherman]

Work go well, honestly, it's the kind of thing that is probably some biological genetic stuff. Like it would be interesting for people like scientists to observe you, all your, your family and the genetics. I. Because I mean some stuff is, it's nature and nurture, but some stuff is inherited and, and it is, I'm sure some of it's lucky but there is clearly something fundamental about how you all operate as people that has allowed it to continue and go through so many different phases. But let's talk about when you all kind of did assume more control. And my view of you is that you, you were sort of the brand guy that brought, you made the mix of product and how the product reflected that customer service way and brand. It feels like you were integral to developing that in the last few decades. But tell me what you kind of saw for yourself in the early 2000s and how you change the mix that is available in Nordstrom day to day.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, first of all, thanks for saying that. That makes me feel good. I mean that's something that I have largely been involved with and yeah, so thanks. But I think it starts when we were told the three of us were to get a chance to run the business. The first thing was that first of all our dads and those guys always ran it as co. They were co presidents, co everything. The board goes, look, we're give you guys this responsibility but we're not going for that co thing. Someone's got to be in charge, someone that that's the way it's going to go. So Eric, Blake and I got in a room and said, okay, Blake, you're the oldest, so you're the CEO. Eric and I are both executive or we're co presidents or executive vice presidents, wherever we were. And. But we're going to run this, we're going to run it as a team, but that's not how it's going to report up through, you know, or the public view of it. But we're going to run this, you know, together. And so that's fine. So let's divide up, I mean, this literally took 10 minutes. Like, let's divide up the responsibility. So, okay, Blake, you're the CEO, so all the board facing public company stuff is going to be used. So like the CFO is going to report to you, Blake, and you're going to have, you know, HR and you're going to have chief legal and you're going to, you know, all that, the functions of the business. You know, Pete, you're going to have all merchandising. Eric, you're going to have stores. And that's how we did it. And some, I think with the benefit of hindsight, I think that suited our interests and our capabilities probably. And maybe we knew each other well enough where that all happened very easily. It wasn't like an arm wrestling match for who was going to do what. And none of the three of us were in competition with each other. We realized early on that our best chance to be successful is that three of us working together with complimentary skill sets is the way to go. And we, we gave each other the space to do our thing and it worked out great. And so, I mean, for me, the, I always enjoyed the, the more creative parts of the business. I really like the merchandising buying part of it. I mean, we always had a big service thing that we hung our hat on. But my first thing was to say, I want to be as well known for what we sell, is how we sell it. And so it gave the whole merchandising organization a thing to hang their hat on and to aspire to. And that worked out pretty well. And so, you know, it was just really about trying to be paying attention, to be curious of the zeitgeist to what's going on so that we could be a relevant, modern retailer and evolve our offer. And that's just something I've, I mean, to this day I still perform a version of that role. But I mean, I had that chief Merchant job for 20 years about.

[Lauren Sherman]

And how did you do it? How did you make it? So Nordstrom was as well known for what you sell as how you sell it. Like, what were some of the changes you made early on to evolve it?

[Pete Nordstrom]

Yeah, there's a couple big things that happen there. Well, one of them is I think you recognize that if you're not actually trying to get younger, you're going to get older because all your customers get a year older every year. And if, if all you're trying to do is play to the loyal customer and I mean, that's a great. You want to do that and you got to figure out a way to attract new people. So that was part of it. How to feel different maybe than the people we're competing most directly with. Like, how could we bring some of the excitement of what a vertical could bring, you know, being a multi brand store. And so we would look at what Macy's is doing or Saks or Neiman's or Bloomingdale's and think about how we could be a more modern and relevant version of whatever they're doing. But we were really in tune with that. But I would say the big thing for me was not about me, but about my luck or skill and being able to bring people in here that had something we didn't. And the first, the first thing that we did about that was bring in Jeffrey Kalinsky. So one of the things that I noticed is that we were in the design, the luxury business through my dad's generation. And when we were coming up and it was a bit haphazard and it was like, yeah, that's. That part of the business is hard and people don't make money on that. And like, you know, that's not really, you know, my dad and those guys just didn't have a lot of interest in that. And so, but when I saw that our customers wanted to buy these things and we were forcing them to go somewhere else to do it, you know, we have these young customers that end up over time having more money and more affluence and want to buy the best things the world has to offer. And we couldn't always offer that to them. So we didn't have people that had that experience or skill set, I didn't think. And so I talked to Jeffrey Kalinske and there was an article about him in the New York Times that came out. He was having all the success in meatpacking and he said somewhere in there he'd be interested in selling his business someday.

[Lauren Sherman]

And he owned two stores, Jeffrey in Atlanta and then in meatpacking which were cool multi brand stores for people who didn't get to.

[Pete Nordstrom]

And he was, he's one of the most talented people, people I've ever worked around. An amazing merchant. I'm really good and really knew his thing. I mean he knew his lane and he knew how to do it. And so I met with him and he says, would you like to buy my businesses? We're not really interested in buying. I mean, we're not an acquisition company and I'm not interested in buying a boutique store and meatpacking district. And like, I'm not even sure you guys make money or like, I don't know. And he goes, well, why don't you look at my book? So he showed us this whole thing and he, he made money. He was successful at, I mean his gross margin selling designer stuff was like triple ours. Like. And I'm like, well, how does he do this? I mean, he was making good margins on stuff that we were like in the teens in. It was hard for us. And so we just started talking and asked if there was a role he could play here. He says, yeah, if you buy, you know, part of my business or, you know, buy my business and maybe we can work together. And. And it was really unusual because he, I'm not moving to Seattle and I don't want a bunch of direct reports and stuff out there, but I'll help lead your designer thing. And I said, done. And we, we did. Was a very, I mean, I had to do some convincing because people like, what are we doing? This is crazy. And I said, I'm telling you, I think this is going to be a big unlock for us. And it was. And he was great to work with. And just showing up in vendor appointments with Jeffrey Kalinske was powerful because he had a lot of credibility. And he said, I'm at Nordstrom now and I'm telling you there's a big opportunity at Nordstrom and you guys should get distribution Nordstrom, because you're missing out. And it was credible and it worked. And I mean it took a while. We had to slug it out. But that really, I mean, I got a funny story about that. I mean, early on when we were working together, I remember coming out of a meeting from Dior and I just met with Sidney Toledono, whatever. Like we're talking to those guys and I think we had like one point of distribution. You know, it was like nothing. And as we're walking out, the Neiman Marcus people are walking in and you know this Lauren from being there we're, like, coming in and out of places. It's kind of awkward and weird. Sometimes we're sitting next to each other at fashion shows. We're coming in and out of meetings together, and we're competing with each other. And so Bert Tansky's, you know, such a great guy. I mean, really, really an amazing guy. Was always nice to me, but he sees me walking out, he goes, what are you doing in a meeting in Christian Dior? And I'm talking Christian Dior. He goes, we do more in markdowns than you guys doing business with us. And they're like, ha, ha, ha. And they all walked in, you know, Karen Katz and Jim Gold and Bert. A laugh at our expense. Like, ah, you know, so we felt a sense of competitiveness, like, let's go get this. And we did. And that worked really well. So that was one big one. And the other big one, I would say that was not so much about hiring people. We can talk about that because we had other stories there. But when we got in business with Topshop, and that happened.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Pete Nordstrom]

When did that happen? That happened in the 2000, early 2000. Teens, maybe, or around 2010, something like that. Maybe 2012. Is that it?

[Lauren Sherman]

Topshop entered.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Oh, the grace just fired off Google press release from 2012. So what happened with Topshop was we were in an executive meeting one day, and we were talking about stuff that's going on in the industry and things we need and, like, how can we get our younger business to be more vital and relevant and. And I think my brother Blake says, well, I met this guy, or I read an article about Sir Philip Greene and Topshop. Like, you should talk to him. And I go, I don't know him. Like, how am I gonna get it? He goes, well, I mean, you should talk to him. And everyone goes, yeah, Pete, you should talk to that guy. I'm like, okay. So somehow I figured out how to get in touch with Philip Green, who. I mean, that's a colorful guy. And I love Philip. I mean, he was always really good to me, but he is a colorful guy. And he.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Pete Nordstrom]

So we met. They were. They were just starting to open stores in the US and they. They had just opened, I think, their first store. It was in Las Vegas. And he goes, I'll meet with you if you come down. We're opening a store. Come down and meet with us in Las Vegas. So we did that. And I met with him was, like, first thing in the morning, and we met at our store, and they had had their Opening party the night before and they were all a bit bleary coming in to meet with me first thing in the morning.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Pete Nordstrom]

And so I'm talking to Philip and I said, gosh, you know, I think, you know, your brand would do great in our stores. And he goes, well, how are you going to treat it? What are you going to do with it? And I said, well, you know, we're going to buy it. When I stick it here in the department, it'll be great. He goes, I mean, like all that other stuff you got over there. And like, yeah. And he goes, no, not doing that. I go. He goes, I want my brand to show up in a major way. And I said, well, we only do that for brands like Chanel. And he goes, well, then I'm not doing it. I'm like, oh my God. That didn't go well. So basically the hook though was, okay, you're gonna come to the United States and you want to establish a business here. If you do it one store at a time, one mall at a time, one market at a time, running a bunch of marketing to get people to know even who you are, it's gonna take a long time and it's gonna cost a lot of money. Why don't you just open up in our stores and you can learn all about the US Market. You can learn about the markets that are good or bad or what have you. Your marketing is just the fact that you have all these eyeballs on our brand. You're selling online or you're going to be in our stores, we have all these customers. It's going to enable your whole thing to work fast. He bought that, so that's what happened. And that top shop business for us for, gosh, probably six years or so, seven, eight years, it was really, really good. And it, I mean, that was a big feather in our cap. And then we became known as a place where people that are direct to customer. If you're going to be in a multi brand store, Nordstrom's probably the place where you can do it. They'll nurture it, they'll allow it to happen. They'll work with you in a collaborative way. That was a big unlock for us that we're still benefiting from today with other new brands.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I feel like skims is a great later example of that where that's true in many people's minds. And I don't even know if this is still true, but you can only get skims at skims in Nordstrom or. I remember when you all did it with Everlane, I think to me, and I don't want to harp too much, but I do think you're very good at hiring people and understanding sort of the right, the kind of people that can bring relevancy to the fundamentals of the business. But I think what I see from you and what I like about Nordstrom is, did you realize at some point, okay, a good brand is a good brand and it actually doesn't matter what the price is? And you sort of convinced all the brands of that too. Like, to me, the designers benefit because you have a really fun mix and it makes their product seem more exciting and upstart brands benefit obviously because of the exposure, but it's so much about the mix that you're able to. And it reflects the culture of people shop at Target and they shop at Hermes and everything in between and they don't care necessarily how much it costs as long as it's good. And I'm sure that took a lot of convincing, but it feels like a mix of you hiring the right people, people to persuade and then also being willing to take these risks for something like a Top Shop or one of the, you know, Warby park or whatever. One of the DTC brands that came.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Out of the U.S. yeah, well, there's a couple things. First of all, one of the things I really enjoy about your article and your, your, your podcasts and everything is that you've got an appreciation to your point of why if something's good, it's good and it's appealing to rich people or not rich people and a modern person, that's how they shop. They buy whatever they want that suits their lifestyle and is part of the cultural zeitgeist to what's going on. Right. So that's, I think you're really good at telling that story. And that's what we tapped into. We said, you know, a modern person does not dress in head to toe Chanel. They just don't. I'm the richest people I know have Nikes in their closet or you know, a Vuori shirt or a, you know, whatever the Topshop jacket that they might, you know, carry a sling bag and like all this stuff, how it worked together, that was really an emerging thing. And so we used to go and talk to the brands, the designer brands, like, do you really want to be in the luxury ghetto where it's just nothing but pure play, luxury? And the only people you're going to get there is increasingly older people that view the world through that prism And I'm telling you, we have all these customers, they want to buy the best things the world has to offer. They can afford it. And we, they're going to be more comfortable coming into our store than the Neiman Marcus or a Sachs or your standalone store. You're going to get new and different customers you would not otherwise get if you sell us. And our gateway for that was by that time we had the biggest beauty business with all those prestige guys. And so they all had a beauty business. Like, you know, we're the number one seller of Chanel Beauty, for example. I said, you know, that customer is now interested in the sunglasses. And I think at that point we were the number one seller of Chanel sunglasses. But I said, but you stop it there. We can sell the shoes. We're good at selling shoes. We can sell that all day long. Now is it hard to sell the apparel? Yeah. I mean, is it hard to sell the handbags? Yes. But I think we can get to new customers. So it'll be complimentary, it'll be accretive to you. And we started on that path and you know, Jeffrey was really instrumental in helping tell that story. And you know, once we brought it in, we had success. But yeah, I think your point about a person's closet has all these different things in it. And if nothing else, and you know this well, Lauren, I don't care what the brand is. They don't want to be viewed as old. They don't want to be viewed as irrelevant. They want to be viewed as modern and young. And so our average customer age is younger than these people we compete with. It's younger than what they have. We have good salespeople. We have nice environments in our stores. That was it. That's how we did it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I remember, I feel like I did a. When I was doing reporting on a story about you all at some point over the years, I forget what, but it was something about for most consumers, their first luxury purchase is at Nordstrom or something. It was like a stat like that.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Yeah. I think it's cause we're big, right?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Pete Nordstrom]

And we do carry these things. And shoes is a pretty good gateway for that. And we sell a lot of shoes.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. If you're an experienced pet owner, you already know that having a pet is 25% belly rubs, 25% yelling, Drop it. And feel 50% groaning at the bill from every pet visit. Which is why Lemonade pet insurance is tailor made for your pet and can save you up to 90% on vet bills. It can help cover checkups, emergencies, diagnostics, basically all the stuff that makes your bank account get nervous. Claims are filed super easily through the Lemonade app and half get settled instantly. Get a'@lemonade.com pet and they'll help cover the vet bill for whatever your pet swallowed after you yelled, drop it. Hello, it's Lena Dunham. I host a podcast called the C Word with my dearest friend and historian of bad behavior, Alyssa Bennett. What is up? It's a chat show about women whose society is called Crazy. We're going to be rediscovering the stories of women's society dismissed by calling them mad, sad, or just plain bad. Listen to and follow the C Word with Lena Dunham and Alyssa Bennett. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. I want to talk about the last 10 years and how everything changed, but I would also just say, like, just thinking about the way I didn't grow. I grew up in Pittsburgh. There were no Nordstrom's in Pittsburgh when I was growing up. I'm sure there are now, but I didn't experience a Nordstrom, I don't think, until I went to the store in Seattle. I was reporting a story about Filson, and I came to visit your team and got to go and was just like, so blown away. But then you opened the store in New York. Was it in. When. When was that?

[Pete Nordstrom]

We opened that, I think two or three months before COVID broke out. So 2019.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, my God.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Timing was good.

[Lauren Sherman]

But you signed the. You, like, announced in 2013 or something. Right.

[Pete Nordstrom]

And then we build it and we had the men's store that opened up a year and a half or whatever before the women's store. So we, we had a bit of a running start into it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And I want to talk about how that's all been for you, but the thing that I remember from that store opening was the Burberry installation that Olivia Kim did, where it was Ricardo Tisci, who was the designer of Burberry. You don't have to say this, but I can say it was a really tough fit from the beginning. He didn't end up working there for that long. And it was a challenge. The Runway people really wanted to like it. They loved his work from Givenchy. They really respected him. And I just remember thinking, this is such a benefit to Burberry, what she has built out here, I'm sure in collaboration with him and their team and everything. But what you all built to sort of display that first collection was. Was unique and felt like this is why a department store, this is why a store needs to exist. Because it gave the context of why this thing was interesting. And you know, is Nordstrom going to save a brand's business? Actually, maybe you could, but the point being that you contextualize things. And that is what I think is missing in a lot of retail today, especially multi brand retail, is there's not any contextualization. And so what is the point of even going if, if you, if you're not like give. Making it feel special or judging it up or giving it a little magic or what have you?

[Pete Nordstrom]

Yeah, I think you're right. Well, part of the New York thing and we can talk about this, but there was also the reality of that situation. It was harder for us to get all the distribution there because everyone's there, right? They've got their own store two blocks away and they're in Bergdorfs and they're insects and you know, Neiman's was just going to Hudson Yards and there was like, you know, they're everywhere. They didn't need Nordstrom 2. And that was one of the challenges for us is we were kind of the last one as a multi brand retailer in the game. You know, Bloomingdale's got a big designer presence there too, so we had to be creative about it. And one of the Burberry idea, and we still do that today where we've got that corner space that is often used to, you know, be a showcase for a brand. And that idea pretty much lifted from spending time in Europe and looking at the stores. So before we opened New York, you know, I always obviously spent time in Paris and Milan because of market, but we went to all the big kind of flagship stores to see what they were doing. But my takeaway was both Printomp and Bon Marche in particular and Selfridges to a degree with their corner shop thing. They always had this space that was kind of like dry powder that they would do something that was interesting and something they could distort and amplify. That felt very of the moment. It was nimble, it was cool. It wasn't always expensive. It could be. It was just really interesting. And I said, you know, we need to do that. We got to have our version of that. So that was, you know, we let off with the Burberry thing. And I think somewhat to your point, there was a lot going on with Burberry. It was kind of buzzy. It was, you know, this was kind of an interesting to interesting thing to amplify and to distort and we had a good relationship with them, you know, still do. And it's a weird way to do it. So that's kind of what that was about. So, yeah, I don't know that I've ever invented any of these good ideas, but I'm pretty good at plagiarizing a good idea when I see it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, you're good at identifying things and you're curious, which is, I mean, I want to talk to you about your podcast and what you feel like you've learned from all the people that you've interviewed for. But. So you signed this lease or whatever it was in 2013 to open in New York and you all were sort of like, I wrote a story, I think in 2016 or 2017, the last great American department store. It was kind of seen as you really got the zeit. You were in the zeitgeist. You got the mix. By 2015, all of these luxury brands are selling more and more stuff direct to consumer. That business has changed. Prada has 90% of their revenue is direct. They're only doing shop in shops. They're only doing. They're doing fewer and fewer multi brands in the US Multi brand retail in the US just like goes through tremendous changes pre Covid Barney's opening ceremony. Things that were like kind of your competitor, especially because you were playing, playing in this sort of mix. You weren't just for fuddy duddy, you weren't just for people who buying Sam and Libby. You were for everyone. So they are companies that, you know, people are comparatively shopping against yours. They close, then Covid happens. All these bankruptcies, all this stuff happens. It's just there's marketplace stuff farfetch'd doing really well and then it implodes. All the stuff that happened with sex, everything like you three are sitting there and what are you thinking about? Like, what do we do about this? Because people don't go into the store for the same reason they did even 10 years ago. Like they're the walking in. There are different motivators than there were back then. Like, what do you see? How do you see the ecosystem? How has it changed and how did you all sort of tackle it? Or are you, how are you tackling it? Because it's not. The transformation's not over.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Yeah, no, that's an ongoing thing and frankly, it's never going to stop. I mean, you know, when my dad and that generation and hit their dads, the second third generation Nordstrom's, the business was the same. I mean, they had to Take big risks. They grew the company and they're amazing merchants and all that, but there was only one way to buy stuff. There was wholesalers and they sold the multi brand department stores like us. And then we sold it to customers. And that's how you did it. And you grew your business by building more stores. And you know, people were developing malls and we were an anchor in a mall, so we were peeling some malls. We got good deals. That train was on the tracks for a while and it wasn't really until the Internet came along that that game changed. But you know, my dad and those guys were pretty much out of it by then and that all fell to us. So I mean, you could just, you could feel it happening and it was either going to happen to you or you were going to like try to get in front of it. And so I don't know that that requires courage at a certain point. It requires curiosity and, and not being stubborn about how it's done. You know, again, some humility about how you approach this business. We don't, we're going to have to really lean into this. And it's been really interesting. I mean, it's been hard. I'm sure we could have picked something easier to do, but academically it's been pretty interesting because the thing has changed. And you know, here I am at 63 years old and you would imagine at this point in my life I'd like, okay, I've been doing this a long time. I know that the trains on the tracks and I just show up every day and enjoy that. And it's not that at all. It feels like I wake up every day and like, geez, we better figure out a new way of doing this or an improved way of doing this. So it's, I think it's become part of our institutionalized culture of how we think about the business. At least I hope it has. That's, I mean, that's how Eric and I think about it. And the other thing I'd throw in there. So you talk about that timing of 2019 or what have you. That's when my brother Blake passed away. And that was rough. I mean, at a time when business was challenging and Blake was in so many ways recognized as, you know, a cultural leader of this place and, you know, was so well loved internally and externally. And I mean, that was a bit of a crisis of confidence, I think. I mean, not so much internally, but I think for the board. You know, at this point, my dad and those guys were off the board. We have mandatory retirement of 72, a rule that they implemented and thought was great until they turned 72, but so they were all off the board and then, you know, Eric, Blake and myself were on the board and then Blake dies and then we're like, what are we going to do? And I mean that was, that was a rough moment and it actually contributed in some way to the go private effort because it was pretty clear to us at the end of the day we don't have control over what's going to happen here. We're a couple people on the board and we have a lot of influence, but we do not have control. And if you're a public company and your scoreboard is stock price and stock prices driven by revenue growth and we're kind of a mature, steady state and you know that, that there was a lot of discussions about what are we going to do, how's this all going to work, how is Eric and I going to fit into this? And yeah, that was challenging time.

[Lauren Sherman]

Would you say that the way investors approach the market has changed and that it has become more driven by growth than it used to be? Because it just feels like to me, I remember when you first, there were first reports about the company wanting to go private and I believe the investors voted against it, which ended up.

[Pete Nordstrom]

They would have made the board, voted against.

[Lauren Sherman]

The board voted against.

[Pete Nordstrom]

The shareholders never got the chance to vote. And by the way, they turned down, what was it, $52 a share.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Pete Nordstrom]

So in.

[Lauren Sherman]

They would have made way more money.

[Pete Nordstrom]

That doesn't look great. So anyway, yeah, that happened.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. So but the point being that like I just think, I don't understand, I understand why people go public to raise capital when you need to open a bunch of stores or whatever. I understand that. It makes sense to me. And there are early, long, their early gains and also, you know, some retailers, Abercrombie and Fitch is a great example of that's had a lot of success recently because they had shrunk so much that they were able to, to, you know, make a lot of people a lot of money. But I think what it comes down to is that retail is such a cyclical business. Do you think that it's gotten harder to be a public company if you're a retailer of all kinds of retailers, but especially in multi brand apparel than it was, you know, 30 years ago?

[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, it's kind of a nuanced answer. Not really because I mean, look at, we benefited a ton from the growth trajectory that we had for a long time. So it's not like we never got our bite at that apple. We did. It was only really when things kind of started leveling out, we went to Canada and that ended up not working. I mean largely because Covid just made it impossible and we had to make tough decisions.

[Lauren Sherman]

I went to one of your amazing stores in Canada.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Did you go to Vancouver or to Yorkdale?

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, actually I've been to both. I've been to the Vancouver one, that.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Was a great store.

[Lauren Sherman]

I got a great pair of Celine pants that I still wear constantly on sale that were so good. And then I went to the Toronto, the one at the mall, the really nice mall, Yorkdale. Yes, yes. And I covered it and I think Jamie was. Jamie, the head of stores at that time.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Yes, he was.

[Lauren Sherman]

And I interviewed Jamie for it and I wrote about it and it was also. They were amazing stores, I love them.

[Pete Nordstrom]

But anyway that, so when that the writing was on the wall then that there really wasn't an international opportunity. And frankly, if you look at it, Lauren, you'd probably know this. There's never been one multi brand store like ours that's been successful in another country in the world. Not one.

[Lauren Sherman]

I believe it.

[Pete Nordstrom]

I mean every time you hear like oh so and so is going to come to the United States, it never works. You know, there's a couple, you know, there's a, that leased franchise thing that Sachs and Bloomingdale's do in the UAE or what have you. There's a couple of those. But you know, I don't know how much growth potential that has. I mean we've been offered those things but it just doesn't really work. I mean England doesn't need us, you know, Japan doesn't need us. They've got stores that, you know, there's, we just don't have a reason for being there. So all of a sudden the prospects of us having a big growth trajectory were limited. But the thing that we did have going for us but we never really got any credit for is the multiples of first of all, off price businesses. If you look at the stock multiples of the TJ Maxx's and the Ross Marshalls people, it's huge. Now we're in that business. We have a very large off price price business with Rack that is successful. But when people looked at Nordstrom stock, they viewed it as a full price department store. The other thing is, if you looked at the multiples of online only pure play guys, those multiples up until very recently were really big. We have a very large Online business, matter of fact, high 30s percent, maybe near 40% of our business done online.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, wow.

[Pete Nordstrom]

But we didn't get any credit for that either. So our multiple was the same as dinosaur like department stores that really had nothing going on. And we felt like the company's undervalued. I mean, this is to your point. It's just not. We don't need to be in the public space because it's a morale buster for everyone. If your scoreboard is your stock price and that's languishing in the teens and even we. And now it's a good quarter and the whole sector wasn't good, our stock would go down. Like, this is not a good way to run a business. And so it wasn't until we were at a place where can we actually pull this off without putting the company in jeopardy for over because of over leverage. Can we do that? If. And then that came along. We can talk about that if you want. But that. Yeah, then it happened.

[Lauren Sherman]

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[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, first of all, the private thing was enabled to work for two reasons. The, the stock price had gotten really low after Covid and it was hard to rebound out of that. And our whole sector was beleaguered in some way. And we got described by most people, investors as the best house on a bad block in a bad neighborhood, which is flattering in one level. But you know, okay, we're still in that neighborhood so we want to try to figure out how to break away from that. But the stock price is down. The teens activists start swirling around. The board's anxious about what are we going to do? So it lends itself to a discussion about what are we going to do so we're not reacting to something and we can proactively do something that's in the best interest of shareholders in the business. But if not for the fact of Liverpool coming along, I don't know how we've been able to do it. We would have had to go down a traditional route of, you know, private equity money and, you know, expensive money that, that is and the high leverage game. And that just wasn't super appealing to us. We want to really play the long game. But when we met, you know, the guys, the family that runs Liverpool, which is a family, fourth generation family, you know, big successful department store in Mexico, they were looking for a place to invest money outside of Mexico for all the reasons you might appreciate. But you know, they didn't want to run a business in the United States. They just wanted to invest in something they knew something about and thought might be interesting and perhaps helpful to them. And they were really nice. They were flattering to us. Like they thought we were good at what we do, that we are undervalued. They approached us and said, you guys ever want to go private, we would like to be your partner. And so then it was kind of on. And that created a path for us to do it as common equity. It's not a merger. It's not like Sachs and Neiman's trying to bolt together two companies and create synergies and take costs out. And it's. They're an Investor. We own 51, they own 49. You know, they just want the business to do well. They don't want to run it, they want us to run it. That was one of the conditions. We don't want to buy it. If you guys are going to bail and just Trying to cash out. So we didn't want to bail and cash out. So it all worked out as well as it possibly could have. And while it's early days and everything, it's, I mean we're just so grateful for them and the, the partnership we have. So anyway, so that, that all happens. Okay, how does that inform what our go forward plan is? And their thing is, you know, most private equity guys will say okay let's, if your capex budget is $400 million a year, let's just take that down to 50 million for the next three years and just put that money in our pocket. That'll be great. You know, like they're not that they're like, hey, I think we want to, maybe we want to invest more in capex so that there's this moment in time we can create a competitive advantage because we're investing in these stores and we are making them more relevant and what have you and part of a better ecosystem that includes online and what have you. All this stuff. So that's really inspiring. That's fun stuff to talk about. Not how you can wring the last penny out of it by doing all these turbo cuts and stuff that customers don't like. It's. None of that stuff's in the best interest of customers. None of it. That's all financial engineering. Engineering. And what we want to do is be in a situation where we're talking about what would be something customers would like and appreciate. How can we evolve our business to be more compelling to customers? That is a lot more fun conversation and business to be involved in and at this stage of my life. And I know I'd speak for Eric and Jamie the same way. It's like, it's awesome. It's great.

[Lauren Sherman]

What do you think customers want?

[Pete Nordstrom]

I knew you were going to ask that. If I had the perfect answer, we would do that. I don't. I think part of it is how it all works together. And you can see this, Lauren, from where you sit, how all the different companies are trying to figure it out. But it's the ecosystem of how the convenience of online, the transparency of online is combined with a physical store experience. Cause everyone that's a pure play online player that doesn't work particularly well unless you got the scale of Amazon. It really doesn't work for almost anybody that I can think of in our space.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Pete Nordstrom]

So, okay, but even Amazon, what are they always trying to do? They're talking about opening up physical stores and having these spaces because like for example, for Us, the large majority of online returns that we take, we take at a store. Not because we force people to do that. They just find it more convenient. Convenient. They're like, oh man, I don't want to deal with the post office. I don't want to go to the UPS store. I don't want to leave it on my doorstep. I live on my way to work as the. Whatever mall and I'm just going to drop it off there. I'm going to. And so a good guy for us is that creates a trip to a store and it creates again, a reason for being about a store. And the other thing a store does that online does not do as well is discovery. Bumping into something you had no expectation of wanting or considering, but you bumped into it, you saw it in a store and it's compelling and it caused you to stop and try it on or something. You know, if you're just searching for stuff online, like let's say you're looking for a black dress, you're going to occasion. Are you going to scroll through 6,000 pages of black dress to discover the one you want? Like, no way. So to do a curated thing in a store that might be a much better alternative and perhaps a more enjoyable one. And then last thing I would say is there's still a huge swath of the consumer that wants to have that physical experience. They like the tangible aspect of a store, the esthetic of it. They like the social part of it. They the discovery. They like it. And so our thing is, let's do both. Let's have convenience, let's have that ecosystem, let's have the high touch thing. I mean, let's do Catherine Bloom, let's go full bore, like with, you know, the dream stylists in person experience. And let's go with a transactional experience about, I just want to buy this thing for 20 bucks and I just want it sent to my house. You're like, we're going to do both. That's. That's the mousetrap.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. So I want to ask like, big picture, but really quickly on the Katherine Blume thing, because I thought that was a really interesting hire for you and obviously a great get. She is a very important style personal stylist who worked at one of your competitors for decades, and you were able to convince her that you were the right place for her to be. She's based in Los Angeles and that Nordstrom local shop that you had on Melrose is becoming sort of her per. Center of the world, which I think is really smart because most of the designer stuff you all sell is in Calabasas at the location there and, or, or near there.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, yeah, Topanga's got a big offer in the South Coast Plaza. It's kind of those two places.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. And so for the customer who doesn't go to those places and really does shop on Melrose or, or would like to be closer to West Hollywood, it creates this new opportunity. But why, why was she an important hire for you? And what do you think at the high end level, the personal stylist and the one to one shopping experience means for stores today?

[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, I think it goes back to this idea that if you're open to it and you're curious about what good looks like at other places that you want to figure out how to get that in your store. So I mean, you heard me talk about the Jeffrey thing and then Katherine thing. That's the most recent version of that. I mean, and I know Katherine because we went to high school together, so.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, that's funny, I didn't know that.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Yeah, she's much younger looking than I am.

[Lauren Sherman]

That's awesome.

[Pete Nordstrom]

And we had stayed in touch over the years because I would see her like in market, she'd be at the whatever fashion show, sitting there and I'm there and. And it always used to kind of freak the Neiman's people out because we talk to each other like maybe we'd go have dinner or something. Oh my God, what is she doing talking to Pete? But she told me a long time ago I'd asked her, hey, you should work for Nordstrom, it'd be great. She goes, you know, Neiman's treats me really well. I have a huge business. They've got everything that my super wealthy customers want. You don't carry all this stuff. I'm staying here. And like, okay. And so we never talked about it again until all the issues that kind of came up now that have a negative impact on her. And I think, you know, when those two companies merging together, the unintended consequence of that is it probably was disruptive or continues to be disruptive for salespeople and people work on the floor and flow of inventory, all this stuff, I mean, I'm not telling anything you don't know or the general public doesn't know. But I think at a certain point she lost confidence in her ability to be able to serve her customers well with that and she was open to Nordstrom. And so basically we started talking about it here and there was like, oh, I Don't know. I don't know. It's going to cost us money. We have to do this, we're going to have to do that. What about our other stylists? We don't do that for them. And I don't know. And I go, you guys, you're thinking about this whole wrong. I think we got to approach this like, what wouldn't we do to get Kathryn Blum? I mean, she is a huge difference maker. Not only just for, first of all, a bunch of new customers. She can lift and shift over to our business. How to do personal styling in its absolute, you know, most excellent representation of that and her credibility with the brands we do business with, who know who she is, and if she's on our team, that is a big feather in our cap and it's a competitive advantage. So what wouldn't we do? And so that's how it started. And Katherine was great and we figured it out and she started and it sent some shockwaves through the business, but that was a proud moment. And it's, you know, so far, so good. She's, I mean, she's a lovely person. I don't know if you know her, but she's, she's great. Easy to get along with and, you know, work with. People love her and customers love her. By the way, you brought that up. You're in la. Do you want to go visit her there? Do you want to see what she's doing there?

[Lauren Sherman]

I. Yeah, I would love to. There. They had an event, I think you all did an event where when she first came to welcome her and I was out of town.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Yeah, well, we're gonna have another event because there's work still being done that place. But even if you wanted to be there, just. You want to go in and spend some time with Katherine or maybe next time I'm there, you know, I can meet there and introduce you to her. And first, she's lovely. I think you'll find her really fascinating how she does her thing. But to me, again, it represents the spectrum of what we do. She's. She's selling the richest people in the world, the most expensive stuff in the world, full stop. And she also has customers who live a modern life that wants Nike or skims are these things that you can't really get at some of those other pure play places. And so in a lot of ways, her customers are really happy. They were able to get everything they want and some things that was harder for them to get through. Catherine and Katherine's happy She's got a bigger closet to sell from, so to speak.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pete Nordstrom]

So that's what that was about. It's just. It's part of our. Hopefully something we've institutionalized. It's just our quest to keep going. And so if we can add Katherine, great. If we can add some like Ricky Dole to our team, great. We're going to do it. If we can add Olivia Kim to our. We're going to do it. Yeah, I'm. I am, too. I mean, these are great people. I mean, Ricky is amazing. I teach myself every day. I get to talk to her about, you know, being on our team and what she's work on. She's terrific.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, she's so great. Very hard worker.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Yeah, She's. She's serious about what she does. I mean, she definitely is into it and wants to show up.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, so tell me. I will let you go at some point. Two more questions. One is, you were talking about all these people who you've brought into Nordstrom and that have been. You're very curious. You mentioned curiosity. You're a curious person. You clearly, it's important. You said instant institutionalizing change. Essentially, you have this podcast you've been doing for a couple years. Right. I. You were very kind and had me on last year or earlier this year, I don't even remember at this point, but it was. I really enjoyed chatting with you, but I think you've had a really interesting mix. You'll have Tory Burch on, but then you also have on Katherine or someone who does something very specific within the business. And I feel like. I'm sure you get a ton of customer feedback, but what has having. Because a lot of brands launch and retail. I don't know if any retailers, but a lot of brands launch podcasts. And like, I think people really listen to yours, like they care about it and it's become a part of their sort of media diet. And also, like, what has it taught you about the industry? And. And as you all make all these changes and the world around you is changing, has it been a good way to sort of, you know, compile anecdotal evidence or what have you?

[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, first of all, I gotta tell you, and I'm not just saying this, but when you said at the end of one of your recent newsletters that I have a genuinely good podcast, I think those were your exact words that made my day.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's true.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Because, you know, when you.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's very true.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, you're nice to say it because, you know when you do this thing, it's hard to tell. I mean, the. There's so many choices out there for people with podcasts. And he's like, why isn't this bigger? Why is it? I mean, it's a competitive space, and for you to give it some credibility was really nice. So I appreciate that, but I don't. I don't know. I mean, I mean, part of it is I'm doing it on my terms. So I. I talk to guests I want to talk to about subjects I'm interested in. You know, it's. It's not. I'm not the paid host interviewing. I'm not a professional interviewer. I'm talking to people I know or I have some reason to talk to because we're, you know, we're in the same business or something. So I think for our, for the business, what it hopefully does is I think it just lends a view into what we do and how we do it and why. And so, you know, people like shopping with, With a company that I think they feel is run by people, and there's a humanity to it. And to the extent I'm able to be transparent enough that people feel like, wow, that, you know, I think I like the sounds of what they're doing and why they're doing it, or, you know, they meet people, you know, like, whether it's Catherine, whoever it's on our team, like, wow, that sounds like an interesting person. Like, maybe I should shop at Nordstrom. I mean, if you just can get anybody to feel compelled to shop with us based on how we come across and that, I think that's great. I think in the industry it's helpful, particularly if I have guests that have a lot of clout or authority or credibility. I think that reflects well on us. If I can get people to come on. Getting someone like Anna Wintour to come on and be in the show, that's not a trivial thing. It comes up all the time. People say, I can't believe you got Anna Wintour. I know her. She was willing to do it and that was awesome. Yeah. So I don't know, but the last thing I'd say about it, and this is self serving, but it's taught me how to be a better listener. I think it's helped me stay on the forefront of the curiosity. And I mean, I think if you've listened to the episodes, you know, a big theme for me is I'm really interested in the entrepreneur story. People that have created something out of nothing. I'm super inspired by that. And I love hearing stories of success that come from a real grassroots place. And you know, we're a big company that I don't want to lose the feeling of what that is, of what it takes to kind of earn the business. Like someone said to me recently, Kenneth Cole said to me recently, I'll give him credit for this on the episode I did with him. He's such a good guy. I've known Ken a long time, but something like we have the right to be considered, but you have to earn the right to be chosen. Chosen. And that has really stuck with me. And so hopefully what I'm getting through interactions like this with different people is I learn stuff. I don't have to invent all these things, but if your antennas up and you're listening, you're learning and you're curious about stuff, it's practical and helpful for me in what I do. So I've benefited a lot from it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Final question. I'm not going to ask you to comment on all the disasters and non disasters happening in multiband retail in the US right now. But I am curious to know how do you think the current situation is going to net out? Like do you think, and I'm talking about Nordstrom too. Do you think that we're going to live in a world where there are fewer physical stores? Do you think that more brands are gonna go away? I hear about smaller, you know, multi brand boutiques that have just a couple locations are expanding right now. On the other hand, it feels like many of these retailers are overstored. Like what do you see happening in terms of. Because I talk to brands every day and you know, they don't know. They're afraid to sell to a lot of multi brands retailers. They're nervous. I have a friend who has a Sandals line and she will call me and be like, do you think they want to do a $500,000 order? Do you think it's. And I said to her, I think when the matches thing happened, I said, look, I think you're just going to have to bake into your business model that this is going to happen every couple of years because it keeps happening and it's been happening for the last decade. But just more broadly, like where do you think the market is moving and do you think we're going to see more consolidation? Do you think we're going to see more brands go ending? Like what, what do you think's going to happen? And how does Nordstrom, how does Nordstrom fit into the the new ecosystem that will emerge because they're stores are not going away like, like you said it's, it's just that they are changing. The, the need for them is changing.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, I'm somewhat reluctant to answer that because I don't want to display hubris like I know all, everything that's happening and where it's all going because it's not an easy business and you know, we, we've had our own share of tough innings and stuff too. So I don't know. I mean I think it's, I, yeah, I think there'll be consolidation. I mean just if you look at the Saxonymus thing, I mean I, I, I'm hard pressed to believe there'll be this equal number of Saxon Neiman stores, physical stores, X amount of years from now. I mean I think just for practical sake and efficiency, particularly if you only have one buying group buying for. Why do you need two different name plates in the same market? Like I don't, I mean that seems logical but I guess we'll have to see how that all. I'm sure if he had Mark on he'd have a bit of a different answer for that and I guess we'll see but the way we tend to think about it is that represents an opportunity for us. Cause they're not all going away. There's always room for the best of anything and if we can be the best of what we do then there's, there's room for us. I, you know, I don't know, Bloomingdale's, Macy's, Sacks Neiman's. I mean that's, that's really, and us, they're, that's really kind of the group. I mean there's others obviously, but those are the big guys. I don't know. I think it's tough if you're a public company, you don't have a growth story to tell, it's going to be tough. I know that from firsthand knowledge and if you can't figure out a way to make whatever it is you do relevant and appealing to young customers so you have a customer acquisition strategy that's going to be tough too. So our thing is be the best of what we do. Let's be the best possible partner for brands so if they need one, we're the one. How can that be the case? And you know, opportunistically this is a really good moment in time for us because of the uncertainty at other places. It's again, it's just, it is what it is and we're leaning into it and I have a lot of discussions with brands about, look at, we don't you need to have an exclusivity or anything like that. But we want you to have more eggs in our basket. I mean, we want, we want to be more important to you. We want to be more important to customers about whatever the best brands are. And that could be a new discovery brand or it can be a brand with heritage that, you know, everyone just loves and everything in between. So I don't know. It's not a very pithy answer. I'm sorry about that. But we have a sense of optimism about our ability to carve out our place in multi brand retailing and hopefully be best of class. That's the goal. Wherever that takes us in the next several years.

[Lauren Sherman]

Pete, you're definitely best in class. Thank you for doing this.

[Pete Nordstrom]

It's a fragile thing, man. There's superstitious people out there that be knocking on wood and stuff. But I mean, you gotta go out and earn it every day. That's all we're focused on. I mean, if anyone leaves the conversation with anything else other than that, it's like, look at the humility has been beaten into us in this, like. And we deal with it every day. And you know, we've seen businesses that we really admire, like Barneys have go out of business. Like, man, if Barneys can go out of business, geez. I mean, you know, we all have to be on our toes. So we're just trying to do our thing. That's. That's it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Thank you.

[Pete Nordstrom]

Well, thank you. That was fun to do. It went over time, but I enjoyed it.

[Lauren Sherman]

It was so fun. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.

[Pete Nordstrom]

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