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- [00:01]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, sure thing.
- [00:02]
Unnamed Friend
Hey, you sold that car yet?
- [00:04]
Unnamed Seller
Yeah, sold it to Carvana.
- [00:06]
Unnamed Friend
Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy.
- [00:09]
Unnamed Seller
The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency. No interest over 36 months. Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient.
- [00:21]
Lauren Sherman
Just like that?
- [00:22]
Ana Angelic
Yeah.
- [00:22]
Unnamed Friend
No hassle?
- [00:23]
Lauren Sherman
None.
- [00:24]
Unnamed Friend
That is super convenient. Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle.
- [00:28]
Lauren Sherman
For convenience, pick up.
- [00:29]
Unnamed Advertiser
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- [01:34]
Lauren Sherman
Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet and today with me on the show is writer and fashion marketing guru Ana Angelic. We're discussing her new book, How Brands Influence Culture. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email three times a week called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries line. She is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount, just go to Puck News slash Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial. Now let's get started with the show. Happy Friday. Happy holidays. It was a big week at Line Sheet this week. Thursday, I dug into MeToo. Blazey, Blasey Blazey. We'll find out soon. His appointment at Chanel and all the speculation around that and what it could mean for caring. Sounds like they may already have a successor lined up at Bottega Veneta. Or at least they are close.
- [03:03]
Ana Angelic
Close.
- [03:05]
Lauren Sherman
You can go online sheet to find out who who the names are also. Rachel Strugetz, our beauty correspondent, looked at the state of Beauty M and A. We thought there was going to be a very big exit this year. Instead, we've had some nice exits. It's still, you know, December. December's not over. People love doing deals over the holidays, so that might still happen. But I guess the big takeaway from that story and you should read it because Rachel has all the reporting and details. But big congrats to Sarah Gibson Tuttle, who sold her nail polish and nail care brand Olive and June to Helen of Troy for a bunch of money. What a story. It started out as some cool salons and she got into product really quickly, closed the salons during the pandemic, never reopened them, and now, you know, she sold this thing for hundreds of millions of dollars. And I'm very excited. I've known Sarah for a really long time and I'm very excited for her and excited for the people who had equity in that biz. There weren't that many, so I think they all did pretty well. Like love, love to see it. I also have news on the Conde layoffs, or as they are calling it, a reorganization connected to restructuring on the business side. Sure. There's also some funny stuff about people really mad because apparently Roger lynch, the CEO, sent out an email saying you have to be in the office four days a week, which, look, I agree with Roger. You should all be in the office four days a week. Sorry, I don't know what you all are doing at home. Why would you want to be at home? Especially if you live in New York City. It's. It's cramped. Like go to the office. Anyway, I also had a little news on changes at Paris Vogue. And then I also covered this, Mr. Bernard Arnault's induction into this prestigious learned society in France, which is very interesting and I think it's actually quite a charming story. Little funny, but mostly charming. Oh, and I did my guide to gift guides that was really fun. I hope you enjoyed that. Or enjoyed if you haven't looked at it yet. And our new correspondent, Sarah Shapiro. Starts next week. So if you have any retail or shopping stories or investigations you want her to do, just send her a note on social and she'll be S Shapiro News, so you could email her there, too. And I hope you enjoy this interview with Ana, who is nothing if not unfiltered and shares her opinions about all the brands, high and low, what they're doing right, what they're doing wrong. And it was super fun. I hope you have a restful weekend. Ana Angelic. Welcome to Fashion People.
- [05:46]
Ana Angelic
Thanks for having me, Lauren. Pleasure to be here.
- [05:49]
Lauren Sherman
What did you have for breakfast this morning?
- [05:51]
Ana Angelic
I didn't have breakfast yet.
- [05:53]
Lauren Sherman
Me neither.
- [05:54]
Ana Angelic
I know, but it's like 9 o'clock your time.
- [05:56]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. What time is it? Your time?
- [05:58]
Ana Angelic
It's almost one. I'm going to be hangry on this podcast. No, I'm kidding. I'm not.
- [06:03]
Lauren Sherman
Did you have a late dinner?
- [06:06]
Ana Angelic
No, it's just that I can, like, I just eat once a day, honestly, like, don't like just that one big thing in the middle of the day, like Bruce Springsteen.
- [06:16]
Lauren Sherman
This is. This is the key. This is the key. This is why all those people who are on GLP1s are thin because they eat one meal a day.
- [06:27]
Ana Angelic
Are you implying that I'm on?
- [06:29]
Lauren Sherman
No, you're definitely not. It's very clear. You're naturally thin. Slap. Take care of yourself.
- [06:34]
Ana Angelic
But saying that.
- [06:36]
Lauren Sherman
But it is a thing that I think a lot more people have started to do because of GLP1s and they just eat. Or they see these people, they're like, well, the key is like eating, I think, look like those also make you produce more insulin and there's a lot more science. And if you are overweight, it makes it easier to lose weight no matter what. But the key, I think there are a lot of people who do get questioned about it and who are like, oh, I just stopped eating as much. Which is an interesting, like, oh, you could also just do that instead of going on a drug.
- [07:15]
Ana Angelic
I think it's social contagion. But I will say I was never a breakfast person. And because I'm European, we have big lunch and we don't have small dinners.
- [07:24]
Unnamed Guest
Yes.
- [07:24]
Ana Angelic
And so that is. I'm just kind of like, I'll just do my thing. Sorry, Brian, my husband, like, I'm not gonna dinner with you because I just don't. I'm not hungry. You know, why do they eat that? But definitely social contagion. But honestly, Lauren, I don't know if you, like, I go to Tracey Anderson and The amount of bad Ozempic bodies.
- [07:42]
Lauren Sherman
I know, it's. It's.
- [07:44]
Ana Angelic
I don't know, like those people really think they look good.
- [07:47]
Lauren Sherman
I don't know. I haven't really. When I think about it, the people that I've observed on Ozempic because I don't really go to a lot of boutique classes. I do go to some, but they're in like Pasadena with 20 year olds who are definitely not on Ozempic and make me feel really bad about myself. But. But I, I tend to go to like in Hollywood to. With like a lot of young girls. So I'm not. Are you at. At the Tracy Anderson and Tribeca with all the Tribeca moms?
- [08:18]
Ana Angelic
I'm 59th.
- [08:19]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, okay.
- [08:19]
Ana Angelic
I mean priest side. But it's younger girls who look worse than older ones.
- [08:27]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, Yeah. I think the thing that it does. It's funny. A friend of mine was like, did you end up doing it? Because during my book tour I was thinner than I normally am by, I would say five pounds. And I said, no. Sometimes I think I should just do. That would be a lot easier. Yes. But I have not done it because I am one of these people who wants to take care of myself and be healthy and all that stuff. But then she said, well, I didn't think you had. Cause your face is still full. Like, it's not like. I guess it really gets you in the cheek area and also the butt area, which is like.
- [09:09]
Ana Angelic
And arms.
- [09:10]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, yeah.
- [09:11]
Ana Angelic
Like the bones. Yeah, bones. It's. That is the off. So you basically have like fake boobs hanging. Like it's not a good look. And also the arms are really skeletal. So it's the neck that gets.
- [09:25]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, man. Oh, man.
- [09:26]
Ana Angelic
Everyone has their own thing.
- [09:28]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. Look, I am very pro people feeling good and being healthy. And if you have to do that, go for it. And if you want to get work done to supplant like whatever. Everybody has their thing. But it is very interesting to observe and you are a cultural anthropologist. So to see it is fascinating. And I think the thing you said, like, it's just. It's made it okay to be thin again. Like it's made it okay to not eat a lot. Whereas for I'd say the last 15 years, you go to a dinner and you don't eat, you don't take a piece of bread. People are like fully judging you, like very much. You have to eat, eat, eat. And so there is. I mean, this is all balanced and I'm just curious to see what happens to these people Physically, in 15 years, it.
- [10:25]
Ana Angelic
You know what? That's the thing. And, like, we can get off the topic. But for me, aesthetically, it's like, there's so many people. Like, I. Like, I'm not young anymore, so I don't see well. So when I look on Instagram, I think everyone is a Kardashian and they're not, because that's the same, like, as, like, everyone looks like, you know, the same. Same. And I wonder if it's like, this is not new, but I just think aesthetically, it's, you know how there was again, like, aesthetic and ethics. So it was a value judgment if you didn't eat bread.
- [10:59]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [10:59]
Ana Angelic
It was body positivity and so on. So. But now, because aesthetic change also, like, oh, but you don't have self discipline. You're not, you know, like, again, I feel like fashion is going now, like, you know, pendulum, you know, swings. I think it's confusing, to be honest.
- [11:17]
Lauren Sherman
It is. And it's also. I remember I spent, I think it was like five and a half months in Paris in 2019, and I didn't go back to the US at all during that time. I actually maybe went to the UK once or twice, but was really only in Europe during that period. And really notice, like, the way people take care of their faces in France, and you just spend more time with French people and women in particular, and also their bodies and working out and all that stuff. And then I remember going to the UK for, like, two weeks right after I left, and it was a culture shock because Kardashian body was, like, at its peak. And I had forgotten about it because in France, everybody was still just like, I don't eat. I eat when I'm hungry. I'm not going to eat that much, and I want to be thin. Whereas in. In the UK and in the us it was really about, like, how can I get, like, a really big butt? And. And so they totally changed physical aesthetics. And now, yeah, it's like there are still people who look like that, but then there are also these people who are. Are trying to look really small. And then obviously there is also this trend with a lot of weightlifting and a lot of protein.
- [12:40]
Ana Angelic
Yeah.
- [12:41]
Lauren Sherman
Like, eating so much protein that I'm like, I don't think it's physically possible for me to eat this. And I don't understand how I would ingest all this food if it was going to make me thinner. Maybe I'll try, but, like, I don't think I can. And then the weightlifting like that. I think over 40 is important, but it is crazy the amount of stuff I get fed on Instagram. I don't really do TikTok. But about macro, macro, macro. Lift weight, lift weight. Deadlifts, deadlifts, deadlifts. And suddenly it's just all. So it's just an interesting. There are so many parallels between physical activity and wellness and fashion and the clothes. Clothes that people are wearing and how they connect back to this. I don't know when you are consulting or when you're advising or working at a brand. Like, how much are you looking at the changes in physicality to inform what items you're buying and all of that.
- [13:40]
Ana Angelic
I mean, I love the pivot. And just one more thing. I saw the substance last night.
- [13:47]
Unnamed Guest
Oh yeah.
- [13:48]
Ana Angelic
And I got traumatized. And I was thinking, funny you mentioned French women because I was thinking about French actresses that are 60 or so. Isabelle, Isabella. You know, like, they look fantastic and they look the like, you know. So it's kind of definitely like a lifestyle. So I would say that brands that I worked with at Banana. It is pretty monster. Gabrielle, Rebecca Minkov. It was definitely. Especially at Gap brands. It's more of a. Like, I don't want to sound cynical or something, but it's kind of like that body positivity and those plus sizes were almost like not political statement. But. Yeah, but. But the statement of. And on at Esprit as well. Not just. Not just. Yep. I would say a big mass apparel brands like let's say like that it's. It's almost. You want to do that because you hit. Have to.
- [14:46]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [14:46]
Ana Angelic
To go up and which I think also if you consider US market obviously there are differences. If you are say like as pre European sizing, you'll have to adjust to U.S. sizing. Or if you are a brand like Gap, which has a mass market, you do want to be aware of what is the average size and adjust to that. So these are obviously good merchandising decisions, good product decisions. But they're also box checking.
- [15:17]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, it's box checking. And then it feels when they should be doing it because they found a really cool, beautiful model and it doesn't matter which size she is. They're doing it because they're like we need a certain size model and we need models of these five different ethnicities and we need like. And that's when it starts to feel really.
- [15:38]
Ana Angelic
But you also have to do that, Lauren. You really do. Like that is like I say have to do that because at the Same time, you're kind of right in the wrong in a way, you know, and they're beautiful people of diverse and you sort of, if you're, if even if you're not a mass brand right now. I'm, I'm, I'm, I've been working for past six months with the footwear brand and it's a default. It's a default. We live in a diverse world and you do need to represent that in your campaign.
- [16:12]
Lauren Sherman
So tell me a little bit. Let's rewind. And how you became so knowledgeable on this topic. Let's talk about your background. And you are. We met years ago. You're a writer, you've written two books. Your new book Hit Makers How Brands influence Culture is coming out imminently and you have also been a CMO at a lot of different companies. It's great. And mostly in the fashion industry. But how did you kind of end up doing that as your gig?
- [16:53]
Ana Angelic
Well, 10 years ago or 11 years ago I went to Kristina Create a group from Droga5 and create a group at the time was building websites for luxury fashion, beauty, lifestyle brands, hospitality brands, but in luxury space. And that's 11 years ago. And you have to like brands were not very comfortable selling ten thousand dollar wedding dress or you know, fifty thousand dollar jewelry online.
- [17:16]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [17:17]
Ana Angelic
At that time. So that was the.
- [17:20]
Lauren Sherman
Create the group. I remember it. James.
- [17:24]
Ana Angelic
Oh my God. James. He's doing well. He's in Tulum.
- [17:27]
Lauren Sherman
Good for him.
- [17:28]
Ana Angelic
James. Yeah.
- [17:29]
Lauren Sherman
Shout out to James.
- [17:30]
Ana Angelic
Oh my God, we love you. We love you. To this day like is doing really well.
- [17:37]
Lauren Sherman
Oh nice. That's fabulous.
- [17:39]
Ana Angelic
So yeah, he found his, his calling after you know, Create the group. So that, so you know it was, it was, so it was a good place to be because I wanted to work with brands who have outsized cultural influence without necessarily understanding the business, the audience, the technology of the modern consumer and the business models that came out of it. So after that it was Spring Studios when they expanded in the US it was a global role and that was super fun because like Milk Studios there is like a studios attached and then again very, very discerning clients. And then it was a global senior vice president position at Kass Lux Hub and that's where it was part of Havas Network LVMH entire portfolio. So to be the biggest client and.
- [18:28]
Lauren Sherman
Havas is, is a big advertising agency.
- [18:31]
Ana Angelic
It's one of the top five holding companies owned by Vivendi which has Canal and, and Universal Canopy. So they have media and creative part and Their Paris counterpart, BTC is works with a lot of luxury brands, is the go to creative agency. So I was always mostly in luxury, but then in a sense, in order to learn how to manage large teams, how to lead large teams, I had to go to mass retail or premium, if you will. So hence as pretty Banana Republic, when you go in and you have 150 people and then 50 people in design. And that was that bigger canvas that I felt I needed to do my career before going back to luxury.
- [19:20]
Lauren Sherman
And so what are you working on now? You said you're consulting for a footwear.
- [19:25]
Ana Angelic
Brand and I have a couple of other clients, a furniture client and a jewelry client. So, you know, there is always fun things to do. Always. And there is this book to promote now and which is exciting. Paris December 9th, if you're in Paris, we'll provide the link, I hope. Lauren. Yeah, of course people can register. Thank you. And then in London, hosted by List at the end of January and then Sydney and Melbourne and then New York as well. So that. And then just to also answer a question, in a sense, what is next? Luxury space is next. And very, very, very, very considered about my next move.
- [20:13]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [20:13]
Ana Angelic
Because I sort of feel like check the boxes and now let's, you know.
- [20:17]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, let's do this for real. Got it.
- [20:20]
Ana Angelic
Let's get serious.
- [20:24]
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- [21:22]
Lauren Sherman
So you during your time at these, these bigger companies, you have you wrote another book. So tell me about your first book and how it informed the topic of this book and when you had time to do this. Because writing a book is not. It's not easy.
- [21:41]
Ana Angelic
Covid. So that was the first book and I started my newsletter, the Sociology of Business, as a way to force myself to write every week. So that was the motivation, actually January or February 2020. And because everything was shut down, there was nothing but time and it was all I always find in my career. It's always good to have a timeout in between.
- [22:02]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [22:03]
Ana Angelic
And reassess and reset and see. So that that book, the Business of Aspiration, the first one was actually my learnings from the previous period working with agencies at, and smaller fashion, premium luxury brands as a chief brand officer to say, hey, but like, what do we know about how people spend their money, what they want, how they spend their time and what is aspirational for them, how they signal their status above all, because luxury is all about status signaling. So that first book was really about the new areas of aspiration in culture, like taste curation, knowledge experiences, information, memberships, and how does that influence brand strategy? So it was a wider sweep that had proven to be useful in terms of specific tools that I kind of developed throughout my work. So what is important to mention here is that everything I write about is first done. It's first, it's based on my experience, it's first practice and then. And you know, when you like, maybe you don't know because you work for a news agency, but at brands you actually, the most important thing is to, to move, always move, move, move. You don't have time to think. You think on your feet. So you do a lot of things either instinctively or strategies are made on the go. So it's important to have time to kind of reassess what, what worked, what didn't work, what how decisions we make, what strategies work. So that's what my second book is about. It's my work at Ban, our work at Banana Republic and Esprit, what the teams have done, merchandising, product design, marketing teams and how we influence culture not through devising brand campaigns, not through brand marketing, but through cultural influence strategies. So the book has basically three parts, the importance of storytelling. Overall, I'm not saying anything new, but I'm setting the stage to say that the story is told through cultural products, not through mass advertising. And then that media planning has become amplification of cultural moments, which changes how media is bought and sold. So again, very practical book. Yeah, contextualized.
- [24:36]
Lauren Sherman
So give me an example of a cultural moment that a brand has made that is then amplified through. Through the marketing.
- [24:45]
Ana Angelic
Absolutely. I mean, I can give you Banana example and I can give you external examples. Banana was when, three months, four Months in the, in, in the tenure. We relaunched the archive, for example. And now it's easy to say that, but it was like four years ago, you know, like whatever, three years ago. And I'm mentioning that because we got a lot of press for that.
- [25:06]
Lauren Sherman
Yes.
- [25:07]
Ana Angelic
And people were like, oh, my God, you know, now everyone is doing that. But in a sense was like, what if? And you know why more people are not doing it? It's not that people don't have ideas, it's that it's operationally hard to execute. So I'm nothing but thankful to amazing supply and production people at Banana Republic and merchandising people who quickly figured out how to assign SKUs to those venues. Yeah, honestly, it does come to that. It does. When you have ideas. And then other examples are, for example, L.L. bean, just their hero product, their tote bag was literally just released with TB with the belt. Super simple idea, super impactful.
- [25:51]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [25:52]
Ana Angelic
That is an example of how do you create something. Stone island is killing it in the past years with not only their amazing content and advertising, but also what they did. It was like, oh, let's look back at the archives. It's a simple idea again, but it's so much better than what you see. I don't have a magazine now, but like, you know, in fashion magazines.
- [26:15]
Lauren Sherman
Well, let me ask you this. When you look at some. Something like. And I remember when you did that Banana Republic reissuing and, and had all these vintage pieces available to buy online, that felt like. It felt like some. A bunch of people really hunted for those pieces, refreshed, like dry cleaned them or whatever to make sure that they didn't smell bad and sold them at a premium through Banana, which I think is a great way to get people interested in the brand again and remember why they know what the brand brand is. But when, when you look at something like Abercrombie and Fitch, which has completely like they have an amazing. They could do. I mean, you can buy Abercrombie sweaters that probably cost $45 at retail for like $250 at vintage stores. Now, like, everything, it would be the cargo pants. Everything from like the late 80s and up to the mid 2000s would probably, probably be really coveted if someone had sort of freshened it up. But instead Abercrombie has taken a totally different strategy where they don't have. There's no sense of its past at all. And they are just making super trendy clothes that like, when you look at the building blocks, it's jeans and shirts and all that, like the kind of same kind of stuff they sold, but there's no heritage whatsoever. I went in the other day and they did have some rugby shirts, but like at nothing else looked like anything that would have been sold at Abercrombie when we were growing up. So what do you think about that strategy and how does it connect back to what you're talking about?
- [27:51]
Ana Angelic
Well, it does help when the CEO is not accused of sexual trafficking. No.
- [27:58]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, true. I mean, that helps.
- [28:00]
Ana Angelic
Well, that helps. And also when have you seen that advertising from the 90s?
- [28:06]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [28:06]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, yeah.
- [28:06]
Ana Angelic
It's like orgies or like, I mean.
- [28:09]
Lauren Sherman
I, I was a teenager in, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania during that period. I was very familiar with the, the advertising and the catalog and all.
- [28:20]
Ana Angelic
But when you look at them now, you're actually, it's cringe. Not, you know, you know, like, it's kind of like, whoa, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of like you're uncomfortable for those people. But like, anyway, that's Bruce Weber fantasy or whatnot.
- [28:33]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:34]
Ana Angelic
That said, that said, said. That is a very, very, very considered, aesthetically considered brand world that, yes, they moved away from. Let's leave this all aside. Is that I've said it once. I'll say retail is a product business. Retail is a merchandising business. Yes. Marketing and brand. That's nice. If you have a strong brand and so on. That matters in luxury, in the space that Abercrombie plays in. And a lot of mass premium brands play in product, product, product, product. Merchandising. Merchandising, merchandising. So they fix their product. It fits better, the quality is better, the sizing is better. And they have that Chase model that they're like, hey, we know that women or girls, they want dresses during summer. We are going to have a lot of dresses to, to choose from. So in a sense it's brand doesn't matter. And aesthetically they are going to go, what is popular? So now the question that always is, yes, at what? At a certain scale you can definitely compete like that. But if you then want to grow, you're never going to outperform Sheen or Zara or H and M or others. So you know what I mean? It's a matter of strategy. At some point, you're going to need a brand again. Again.
- [29:55]
Lauren Sherman
And the brand is for sort of the hero products that are sold year after year after year and evolved. Essentially.
- [30:03]
Ana Angelic
It's, it's the, is the product pyramid. It's Hero products is your foundational products for L.L. bean. Hero product is a tote bag, it's a boat shoe, it's a famous boot. So they have that. So they. All they have to do is riff. They can play with that. It's that product like flat branding. And then what are foundational pieces? A really good jacket, a really good pair of pants, a really good knitwear. So that is what nos never out of stock. That's what you repeat and then you have collection. That's what your interpretation of seasonal trends. That's how we revive this pre for a minute through kind of like seeing what were the iconic products from the 80s, but then having a very flexible foundation and then very considered collection.
- [30:54]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [30:55]
Lauren Sherman
And so a company like Abercrombie, at some point, if they want to keep growing, will need to figure out what their foundation and their hero products are. Because right now they don't really have them. They have, I mean they have jeans and the Jeans.
- [31:14]
Ana Angelic
Jeans, they have T shirts, they have, you know, the basics. I guess that people still go there because they fit well. They're made of better quality than.
- [31:23]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [31:23]
Ana Angelic
Zara, for example. So I think that is. I think I like if I ever any of those brands, I would be afraid of Uniqlo because.
- [31:30]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [31:31]
Ana Angelic
Survived thanks to their very strong Asian business, especially in Japan. So they were not profitable in the US but they had such a massive company that they could. They had a buffer. But now they're making money in the US and now they have Clarite Keller. And so now like they're known for basics, quality, basics. People wear Uniqlo Enermez.
- [31:50]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [31:53]
Ana Angelic
You know, so I think that is. And they are very smart in their collaborations.
- [31:57]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [31:59]
Ana Angelic
So that's a good model if you want to kind of not. Not bizarre. Not be seen and still have scale.
- [32:06]
Lauren Sherman
So looking at something like Uniqlo, which my assumption has always been because they did start to turn things around in the US and things have. They've performed well. They like recalibrated their store, their store footprint, all that. My feeling about them has always been like they have everything but the advertising. Like the collaborations are good. So that's good marketing. But. And the product is good. And it's such a word of mouth product. Like people in the fashion industry have been wearing heat tech for 10 years and if you want something, you go to Uniqlo. It's such a. I remember the first time I took my mom to a Uniqlo. She was like, oh my God, this is amazing. Like she Had. She didn't know about it because she lived. I don't. They may have one in Pittsburgh now, but they didn't have one where she was going shopping and she was like, this is like. It reminded her of old Gap, which is what she wanted. But how much do you think it matters that their advertising's weird?
- [33:10]
Ana Angelic
Does it though?
- [33:12]
Lauren Sherman
Because do you think it matters? No.
- [33:14]
Ana Angelic
I always say there are two things. Discoverability and desirability. So advertising builds desire and your product needs to be discoverable. So you have two jobs.
- [33:24]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [33:25]
Ana Angelic
Desirable and maybe make it easy to discover. If you do that without advertising, you know, you just. You know what I mean? It's like. Because I think what they do have is the range of ages. My mom loves Uniqlo. She buys cashmere there. She was like, oh, I love this JW Anderson bag. Or, you know. Yeah. So it's kind of. You don't need a reason to tell. People go to Uniqlo. Every time I go, like by that store in Soho, it's always packed and most of them are not.
- [33:54]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [33:54]
Ana Angelic
So advertising comes in when you need to push product, then you're rebranding when you have, like, it needs to be deployed strategically. If it's working without it. Like, why.
- [34:04]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, it's almost like not having advertising is as big of a. It is because they almost should just not bother doing it.
- [34:11]
Ana Angelic
Correct. It's like best kept secret that everyone knows about. Like, if a person who wears their mess was like, oh, I just have Uniqlo and Hermes or Uniqlo and your.
- [34:19]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [34:19]
Ana Angelic
That is the best advertising you are going to get. You almost have luxury advertising.
- [34:23]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. Essentially what you're saying is the product.
- [34:26]
Ana Angelic
Is the marketing and product is the marketing. If you figure out that what they call product LED branding, put a product the center of your brand universe and people who wear it. Like, look at Levi's, Doc Martens, L.L. bean and Birkenstocks. Come on, Crocs. These are all core products. And then build a brand around it, which means collaborate, build merch, tell a story around it, build a content. Even Stone island, even North Face. Look at their skims. Collaboration.
- [34:58]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:59]
Ana Angelic
Know what your hero products are and just build a world around them.
- [35:08]
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- [36:12]
Ana Angelic
So most of the.
- [36:13]
Lauren Sherman
Brands you're mentioning are bigger brands, like not all mass brands, but bigger brands. You also work with luxury brands and have been doing more in that space and have dipped in and out of it. The luxury industry right now is sort of in this weird situation where a lot of the mega luxury brands, people are still buying tons of stuff, but they feel, they don't feel like as connected to the culture as they had for the last 15 years. What do you think is happening in that space and what needs to change?
- [36:48]
Ana Angelic
I mean, okay, so I understand what has been. I'll start from what has been happening was exactly what should have been happening if you want to grow, which is get into new markets, open new stores, maximize your market presence. So that is a fashion strategy. It's not necessarily luxury strategy. But then again, if you don't pursue as a luxury brand that strategy, then you're going to end up like in the 90s with incompetent heirs or elderly founders or bankrupt brands. Because luxury by definition is something that very few people can have. It's limited availability.
- [37:39]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [37:40]
Ana Angelic
So that is. But we can talk about modern luxury and the modern soft power which brings a new product strategy and the new merchandising strategy which is all about. If luxury is having something that not a lot of other people have have, then in terms of your merchandising that clearly you distribute per channel your products differently. I remember Miu Mi is killing it.
- [38:05]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [38:06]
Ana Angelic
Although they increased their prices manifold as, as Prada did, as in others did they have one size per for shoes. So I've been chasing around Europe that pair. And you know why? Because it was not available. That is what luxury is. That's what that soft power is from Milan to Paris to Cannes and back to Milan, you know, and I'm not saying I'm not unique by far. So if you have that illusion of scarcity through your portfolio merchandising and through your distribution and through your product design. So it's almost like what supreme used to do when it was hot 20 years ago. It's like such a limited drops of things. So everyone has this. Everyone is wearing the same brand, but not to. Not two people have the same thing.
- [38:59]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [38:59]
Ana Angelic
I think that needs to happen now. I'm not saying anything is right and wrong. Luxury brands did what they had to do to reach the scale they wanted in terms of business growth. But to grow further, they need to start diversifying internally now.
- [39:12]
Lauren Sherman
Well, it's interesting because Prada, the last Runway show and who knows the real reason they did this? They had a great sort of story that they told about every single model had a different pair of shoes and they were all archival. And they said it was about tricking the algorithm. And you don't know what's going to come next. Great story. Reality is it was the greatest hit of basically every shoe they've ever made. And now they can produce all of them. It was a very clever. And who knows why. But that is a case of. I was talking about this with someone the other day where Prada is really one of the few and Mew Mew few brands where the Runway actually matters for commercial because the Runway is so inspiring and people are so into it that they want to buy the stuff on the Runway. There's so few brands that I think about that like that people want to buy the stuff on the Runway. It's just so rare. And they are able to. It was very clever because. And I just thought of it as like a total commercial play. But when you talk about it being about having a lot of different options, I think is a good point.
- [40:29]
Ana Angelic
You need that and you need to be there. The same with the row. The same with Kate. The same with Hermes. The same. So what I would say again, going back to product, Prada and Mew Mew had have had the product innovation like luxury brands or fashion. Luxury brands of the old. They changed how people dressed.
- [40:48]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [40:48]
Ana Angelic
From Chanel to St. Lauren suit to BGA to Balenciaga. They have their. For Dior. They have their signature shapes. I feel the Prada is probably the only one who is doing that right now.
- [40:59]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [41:00]
Ana Angelic
The micro. Micro skirt and oversized and you know what I mean? They have. They are setting they're changing how people dress. They're setting trends, and that's product innovation. And then, of course, smart merchandising comes in because they have their best sellers, what you say, the foundation, and then hero and so on. So, like, what they have, hero is what is on the Runway.
- [41:23]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [41:24]
Lauren Sherman
What do you think of the Phoebe Philo rollout and product strategy? Because she was for a really long time the one who was changing the way people she. She kind of set the tone for how people still dress 15 years ago.
- [41:43]
Ana Angelic
I think her clothes are still unbelievably covetable. I would say that I don't think that her rollout is. I do appreciate the sort of drops.
- [41:55]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [41:56]
Ana Angelic
In a sense that she probably produce it help her. It helps a small company with production. So that's. There is a business reason for that. And I do think that people appreciate because there's so few of those items that are made. So that's true luxury in a sense. And. But then at the same time, like, I didn't understand the Bergdorf, for example. And I just think that she has such a cloud, such a soft power. She can literally. She can. She can do one boutique, physical boutique in Paris and still be like, make it like a cathedral pilgrimage she doesn't even need. So I don't almost don't. Don't think that her rollout matters, because as long as her products are good, people are going to be buying.
- [42:39]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, I think that it. It's taking longer. You can feel the effect of that first collection on other products and other designers already. But it's different from when she was at lvmh, where the example I always use is I worked right around the corner from, I believe, the store, the Celine store on Green, or I think it's Green Street. I worked right around the corner from there for years on. I think it was like broom and green or something like that somewhere down. Down there. And I would go in probably three days a week and just do a kind of spin. And then I would buy something. Usually I mostly. Well, you know, can I afford it or do I buy it? Is a question. But you on sale? Like, I would wait. Their sale was after Christmas, so I would buy one thing after Christmas. I have a blazer that I bought that I still wear from one of the last collections. And I have, like, I bought one of the chunky sweaters I bought. I have some pants that I got from Nordstrom, like a lot of pants for 200 bucks. Really deeply on sale. But the thing is, when the collect when her first collection came out, I immediately bought something. I wanted to have one thing. I haven't bought any. I bought a bag. I ended up selling it to a friend. Not for a profit but just like because it wasn't right for me. And the shirt is great. It's very not right for la. So I don't wear it a ton. But I did buy it because the stuff that I bought from her previously I still wear 10, 12 years later. But the thing was there was that opportunity to go there and look again and again and again and again and again. And I think what was challenged and look she. They had investment from lvmh but this was. She owns the majority of the company with her husband. It was on their terms and they wanted to do it their way. I think when you look back would it have made sense for them to buy like rent a really cheap store in London Paris.
- [44:57]
Ana Angelic
That's what I think she's like definitely. I think she would make bigger. If it's something. When you go. When you make a pilgrimage to where you look and look and look like okay so this is gonna. Like when you go to Paris you certainly have certain stores that you visit and look and so on because their design. So I think I. I agree with you 100 I mean that's. That is better than the. But I would say her site is beautiful. It's beautifully photographed. Model selection is amazing. Styling is amazing. Lighting everything. Art direction photo fantastic. So yes have. But I absolutely.
- [45:32]
Lauren Sherman
I still have a lot of faith that they can work it out and or a lot of hope that they can work it out because it is. There are so few designers doing really original things. Seeing of people who are not doing super original stuff but are have a lot of impact. What do you think of how the row manages all of this stuff? Like they. They are obviously very profitable. Very well considered company that women in America in particular. I'd say in Europe it's a little different. But are really drawn attracted to their product. Buy things for full price all the time. Everything is very expensive. What do you think about their pricing strategy? They're like merchandising strategy. They have so many skus. Why do you think they've been so successful especially coming out of the pandemic which was really tough for them because they were a big bump Barney's client. So they lost a lot of money when Barney's closed. And then they were just really challenged in the first year or two of the pandemic and then things then it blew Up. But why do you think they've been so successful from the like, cultural impact perspective?
- [46:42]
Ana Angelic
You know what I think? I think that first of all, they're like, in all, like, if you go to LA Garcon, half of the story is dries, half of the story is to them, like third. Third. Third is the row.
- [46:56]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [46:56]
Ana Angelic
And the shoes. Like, but they play. They have so many SKUs, as you said. And I do think what they're in Dover Street Market and so on. So even if Barnes has gone, they have a loyal customer. And I think that, that retailers underestimate, like, depending where you play, you underestimate the importance of existing customers and increasing average order value and purchase frequency for those customers. And I think that average order value increase if you add categories, bags, pants and like, that's why they have those SKUs. So it's a complete closet of row. So that's, that's one. And then their pricing point, I don't think it changed that much. They, they, they hit the ground running with extreme, extremely high prices. And I think it's. Overall, look at their Instagram that's going to give you a hint. They don't create fashion. They create works of art. That's their positioning. Because their entire Instagram, they never show their stuff. They show their curation. They have art in their stores, expensive art in their stores. They're, you know, so. And they're very invisible. They're not front and center. They're not their brand ambassadors here and there. You have Jennifer Lawrence had to, you know, like, they know their audience. Jennifer Lawrence is married for the art.
- [48:18]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [48:19]
Ana Angelic
You know what I mean? They play in a different space. So I don't think a price matters at all for their clients. What matters is that they know what they're going to find there repeatedly. That's how they make money. I don't know their financials, but I suspect that 80% is existing clients, 20 is new ones.
- [48:36]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, yeah, that's.
- [48:38]
Lauren Sherman
That's interesting. So, and, and probably 80% of sales come from the top 2% clients or something like that.
- [48:46]
Ana Angelic
Then you. Exactly. And I would say, like, maybe we're talking about Phoebe Philo and not having a store. Maybe we're just not invited. She probably has a studio. When she has the invitation.
- [48:54]
Lauren Sherman
She definitely has a studio. But I don't think it has been. I think they've gotten much better at it. But the. She has events in New York, la, Paris, I don't know about Milan, London, where she has people. And before she launched she invited pre Celine clients to come and buy. But, and that's fine for like, for, but we both know that another reason the row is so successful is because a lot of people buy it secondhand on the railreal.
- [49:31]
Ana Angelic
Oh.
- [49:31]
Lauren Sherman
You know, from a cultural perspective.
- [49:33]
Ana Angelic
TJ Maxx and, and do the Raw. Seriously. There's some, there is some genes there because I don't know who their sellers are at that marketplace but thousand percent, I mean thousand percent. Like you have like the, the amount of discounting and that is the crazy thing. And by the way, congratulations on hiring Sarah Shapiro. And that's the other thing that I kind of. I, I, I look forward to reading. Thanks.
- [49:56]
Lauren Sherman
She's great.
- [49:57]
Ana Angelic
Yeah. Why I'm saying that is that there is that fashion substack that is actually bringing back the middle.
- [50:07]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [50:07]
Ana Angelic
That doesn't that like middle. Middle is the middle. Because they don't have these massive marketing budgets but they may have amazing product. They're just small and they're just local. 10 million, 200 million. And you have those curators, not just Sarah, but magazine May, Emilia Petrarca and others who are basically in the job of affiliate links in curation. So they bring that forth. I would say that retail should pay attention to Middle is back.
- [50:36]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [50:36]
Ana Angelic
In a sense that once you have, you have Perplexity Shop. Once your algorithm gets a hang of me saying, hey, I want a pair mu loafers in black in size 37 and a half. Give me more, give me more, give me more. That is going to be a window before all of that gets monetized like Google did when like a lot of meat brands are going to get a chance to be discovered. So and why am I bringing that up with the luxury is the amount of sales that do you know that you can literally. I bought a Driesuanotin bag for 450. It's 750 at La Garcon. So you know what I mean? I'm not, I want to pay a full price. But if I Google it and Google gives me those options, I am also an economic creature.
- [51:22]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [51:23]
Lauren Sherman
Of course. No one's going to pay more when you can pay less for the same thing.
- [51:27]
Ana Angelic
So that's what I'm saying. I'm not surprised. But I don't think it's unique for, for the role. I don't think it's unique. I think it's across the board that you have satire italist. You have a lot of those that help you find for less and even just Google it and you're going to have price comparison which is the what I think the platforms flatten everything.
- [51:48]
Lauren Sherman
So as we move into this next phase where you're saying that the mega brands really need to start diversifying to feel original again and there's still going to be like price comparison and discounting and all those things. None of that's going away. And then on top of that just like the all the economic stuff that's going to happen this year with potentially with tariffs but also people sort of waiting on China to be. To get back. What are your predictions for how the the luxury market in particular but also just fashion brands generally are going to move in terms of how they communicate with their customers, what they offer their customers. Like where is the industry at large.
- [52:33]
Ana Angelic
Moving towards the US Believe it or not because with the China I mean it's not. Not surprising. It's kind of China sort of slowing down. They're like you know who has money? Americans though. Let's see what. But like traditionally those brands like LVMH and Carings they're headquartered in Paris and they always looked at the U S market as provinces.
- [52:55]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [52:55]
Ana Angelic
You know in and and also Americans don't. They're gonna buy L.L. bean Boot but they're not necessarily by Louisville or something. If they're not super familiar familiar they're spending money differently. And also Americans don't think they're rich even. There may be 1% or 001% there is always so it's kind of different perception. This is different consumption of luxury. But I do think now that that with with growth of luxury brands that happen say in past 1010 years global growth this is actually a fertile market. The problem is the discounting in the US versus Europe because it's much deeper here than anywhere else.
- [53:31]
Lauren Sherman
So you said Americans don't think they're rich. I think like that's interesting but I would. We'll wrap up soon but dig into that because I agree with you but tell me explain.
- [53:43]
Ana Angelic
They can have three homes. They're going to consider themselves upper middle class. They have like incredible inheritance to live to their. It's just the consumption habits and then perception is always there is someone who is richer then you. So I saw that firsthand with my in laws.
- [53:59]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah.
- [54:00]
Lauren Sherman
Yes. I see this a lot when people I know sell a company and they have a lot of money and they're like I'm still not rich.
- [54:09]
Ana Angelic
They're still saying they're like oh no no we like we are not like.
- [54:12]
Lauren Sherman
And I'm like that's fine I mean, I think of myself as being rich. I'm definitely not, like, definitely can't afford, but. But, like, I think I feel very lucky that, like, I am able to have a mortgage and a Volvo. Like, that's good for me. But I see it a lot with people I know who grew up upper middle class and now are. Have a lot more. And they're like, it's not that much. And it's, you know, it is. It's all relative. Right?
- [54:44]
Ana Angelic
Yeah, no, that's, that's that. Not that they're saying, like keeping up with the Joneses, but they're just like thinking, I guess, like, relatively. And then the other thing is, when I was skiing in Vail, like, I don't know, 10 years ago or something, on those lifts, like in Europe, you would sing Rochevel. All branded stuff. Here, no, you would see, like local brands that are really warm. It doesn't really matter. So it's kind of like the status signaling is, oh, I have a wood brick or pizza oven in my backyard. My house is like this size. I have five car. Cars or whatnot. It's not how many Chanel bags I have.
- [55:20]
Unnamed Guest
Yeah, yeah.
- [55:21]
Lauren Sherman
And so do you think that's going to change or do you think that means that the luxury brands have to tweak the way they operate in order to get more people interested here?
- [55:33]
Ana Angelic
Well, I think it's changing with the new generation of wealthy. With the younger ones, they are looking more at how they're counting. Look at the china, for example. Example. It doesn't have a lot of like. But I do think there is. I've seen it among my friends who are more affluent than I am. They are buying luxury bands. But I'm not seeing with older generation boomers, maybe Gen X as much, who are equally more affluent, but they just don't. That's not the way they spend money.
- [56:05]
Lauren Sherman
No. How embarrassing. How embarrassing to buy a luxury item, Becky.
- [56:10]
Ana Angelic
How insecure. How insecure you have to be to five.
- [56:12]
Lauren Sherman
Yes.
- [56:13]
Ana Angelic
You know, I actually heard that from someone, I believe. Oh.
- [56:16]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, yeah.
- [56:17]
Ana Angelic
I have one vintage.
- [56:19]
Lauren Sherman
I have one Chanel bag that I bought in 2010 when I was making $67,000 a year.
- [56:27]
Ana Angelic
Look at you. Hey, dress for success. How you want to be?
- [56:32]
Lauren Sherman
You know, all I want, all I wanted, Anna, when I grew up was to move to New York City and work at a fashion magazine and own a Chanel bag. And I remember envisioning an apartment that was empty with no furniture, but that I would have the Chanel bag. And you know it wasn't that far off. I manifested what you're next.
- [56:54]
Ana Angelic
Tell me, what's your next aspiration? What's your.
- [56:56]
Lauren Sherman
I just bought a secondhand bag from. It's. It's my second true luxury bag. I have a bag from the row that I bought in 2017 or so, or I was a gift that was not expensive that I still own and wear. But I just bought my second luxury bag. It was secondhand. It was cheaper than anything that is on the market now. But yeah, I don't really have any more aspirations for products. I just want some. I just want to renovate my house. This is very American now.
- [57:34]
Ana Angelic
That's your next. You have a newsletter. You're building an empire there.
- [57:38]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [57:38]
Ana Angelic
Articles as we can see. And you have a book and you have a house in California that's due to be renovated.
- [57:45]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. Thanks for the pep talk, Anna. This was great. And congratulations on the book. I can't wait. Today. I don't have a copy of it. I need to. To get it.
- [57:53]
Ana Angelic
Yes, I'm going to send it to you.
- [57:54]
Lauren Sherman
Please do. Yeah, please do. And everyone who's going to be in Paris should on Monday should go to Ana's party. And then also there's going to be with our friends at List something in January. And then you're going to do something in New York too, right?
- [58:10]
Ana Angelic
Yes, I am.
- [58:12]
Lauren Sherman
I hope I'm there.
- [58:15]
Ana Angelic
I would love to have you there. So I'll let you know.
- [58:17]
Lauren Sherman
It was great to chat. Thanks for your words of wisdom and I hope that you get a cool job and that I get the same scoop on it.
- [58:26]
Ana Angelic
Oh my God.
- [58:28]
Lauren Sherman
I'll find. I always find out. We'll talk soon.
- [58:32]
Ana Angelic
And thanks for having me. Always.
- [58:34]
Lauren Sherman
It's great. Thank you. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck, hosted by Lauren Sherman. That's me. Our executive producers are John Kelly, co founder of Puck. Ben Landy, executive editor of Puck. Gabby Grossman, director of editorial operations at Puck and Bob Tabador, executive producer at Odyssey. Edited, mixed and mastered by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, including J.D. crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman, Maddie Sprung, Kaiser Josefina Francis, Hilary Schupf and Kurt Courtney.
- [59:11]
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