Fashion People – "Pop Culture Did Not Die in 2009"

Host: Lauren Sherman | Guest: W. David Marx
Date: November 14, 2025 | Podcast by Audacy & Puck

Overview

This special episode of Fashion People features journalist Lauren Sherman in conversation with W. David Marx, author of Blank Space: A Cultural History of the 21st Century. The episode probes the evolution of pop culture from 2001 to 2025, focusing on fashion as a barometer for broader cultural and economic shifts, selling out, streetwear's merger with luxury, cultural export, and the surprising adaptabilities of "preppy" style. The discussion is laced with sharp industry insights, anecdotes from Marx’s years living in Japan, candid opinions about global consumer trends, and a throughline of how digital connectivity has revolutionized the business and perception of fashion.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. W. David Marx’s Background & Interests

• Studying Japanese Pop Culture ([11:50])

  • Marx recounts moving to Japan over 20 years ago to study the distinctive qualities of Japanese pop culture compared to U.S. culture.
  • His initial focus was on the A Bathing Ape brand and its early use of artificial scarcity, an approach now mainstream in streetwear.

• Cultural Distance as Analytical Advantage ([21:54])

  • Living in Tokyo gave Marx the "distance to notice cultural changes" in the U.S.
  • By the 2010s, the Internet became a "mirror to real life," allowing him to track U.S. cultural trends remotely.

2. Globalization of Food and Fashion – The Exchange and Limits

• Japanese Appropriation and Perfectionism ([08:27])

  • Marx and Sherman joke about Japan’s reputation for "perfecting" foreign things, but Marx specifies this is limited to a certain class and context.
  • “There’s some French cuisine and some Italian cuisine where it is excellent… but the real Parisian croissant feels like 100 times better.” – Marx ([09:41])

• Fashion’s Cross-Influence ([16:19])

  • The American "preppy" legacy and streetwear’s transition from subculture to high fashion both originated in tightly knit communities and subversive iterations.

3. Blank Space – Structure and Central Thesis

• Approach to a Cultural History ([31:42])
  • Marx wanted a linear, character-driven narrative tracking the transition from anti-commercial, anti-"selling out" 1990s through the hyper-commercial 2020s.
  • Used a “systems novel” style, where major (often problematic) figures like Kanye West, Terry Richardson, and Dov Charney "keep intersecting" across pop, fashion, and tech.

4. Selling Out: From Taboo to Tableau

• Evolution of Attitudes Toward Commerce in Culture ([42:04]; [43:43])

  • Gen X revered authenticity and saw “selling out” as an inherent artistic flaw.
  • "Selling out is a dead concept... it becomes the goal or this liberatory act." – Marx ([43:43])
  • The success of entrepreneurs like Jay-Z, and the blending of business into artistry, reshaped what was considered “cool.”

• The Poptimism Shift ([45:09])

  • Once critics embraced “poptimism,” pop’s commerciality was recast as democratic or subversive, not inauthentic.

5. Where is Culture Heading?

• The New Individualism and Its Discontents ([49:43])

  • The drive to "get rich on one’s own terms" has merged with the proliferation of founder culture and social media-shaped aspirations.
  • "There's just no understanding of what the good life is... everyone's expectation of how they should be living is based off what they see on social media." – Marx ([49:43])

• Digital Fatigue and Re-analogization ([53:39])

  • Marx predicts a swing back to analog, in-person, and tactile experience—especially as AI saturates digital content.
  • "If digital tools are just becoming corrupted and terrible and boring, people will move away… back to real life." ([53:39])

6. Fashion as Pop Culture’s New Anchor

• Streetwear, Luxury, and Globalization ([63:55])

  • "You just can't understand what's going on at least in menswear for these big luxury houses, unless you go back to the origin, the crossover between Japanese and American streetwear in the early 21st century." – Marx ([63:55])
  • Global luxury is deeply entwined with the tastes of China’s young consumers, whose affinity for streetwear has changed the very look of luxury.

• Indie Brands, Access, and Democratization ([55:20]; [60:39])

  • Both Sherman and Marx celebrate the explosion of indie brands and global access (thanks to online retailers like SSENSE), counterbalanced by escalating prices among the luxury conglomerates.
  • "There are more people interested in fashion design and the fashion industry than ever before in history, on a global level." – Marx ([55:20])
  • "People everywhere have access to… really great clothes, and people are just wearing better clothes than they have before." ([60:39])

7. China and the Soft Power Race

• Will China Become a Fashion Export Powerhouse? ([68:45]; [71:57])
  • China’s domestic brands and pop culture (e.g., top-grossing films, labubu toys) are rising, but Western and Japanese influences remain dominant, especially in signaling status.
  • “Japan and Korea have become incredibly cool in the 21st century… the question is, when will people find that same aspiration for China?” – Marx ([68:45])

8. Preppy’s Never-Ending Flexibility

• Preppy as Perennial Style, Not Mere Trend ([75:43])
  • "Prep and Ivy have this advantage, which is they're more or less based on understatement and relatively minimal aesthetics." – Marx ([75:43])
  • Hybridizing prep with streetwear, hip hop, and color has kept it evolving and relevant—citing Ralph Lauren, Rowing Blazers, and Jack Carlson’s work at J. Press.
  • Prep’s adaptability and ties to historic authenticity and class neutrality make it unusually resilient: "Goth isn't one week super pink... prep, again, it's just super adaptable." ([75:43])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On pop culture figures as narrative pivots:

  "You do have people—especially Kanye West and then others like Gavin McInnes or Terry Richardson… [who] kept popping up all the time. And I just thought that was a fun thing to follow them."
  — W. David Marx ([31:42])

• On the death of “selling out” as a concept:

  "Selling out is a dead concept. And it is one of the motivating things behind this book… it becomes the goal or this liberatory act of selling out."
  — W. David Marx ([43:43])

• On the price of aspiration:

  "We don't know what the actual amount of money or how to live on the salaries companies pay… everyone's expectation is based on social media… Gen Z said they’d need $500–600K/yr to be well off."
  — W. David Marx ([49:43])

• On fashion’s analog resilience:

  "Just because a great leather jacket is a tactile experience… it's not just this fleeting digital piece of slop. Fashion has risen as a much more essential and important part of culture."
  — W. David Marx ([60:39])

• Sherman on OrSlow and Orley’s accessible price proposition:

  "Orley… they really understand the Western customer… it feels like something that's worth spending, but it's not cheap."
  — Lauren Sherman ([57:01])

• Japan and Korea’s global cachet vs. America’s waning monopoly:

  "America does have this crisis of whether it can be globally relevant as much… there is something exciting about East Asia in general."
  — W. David Marx ([71:57])

• On preppy style’s resilience:

  "Prep… is just super adaptable. And that’s what makes it work in the long run… there’s not a lot of other fashion things that… have that much flexibility."
  — W. David Marx ([75:43])

Important Timestamps

• 05:24 – Marx’s life and breakfast in Tokyo
• 11:50 – How Amatora led to Status & Culture and ultimately Blank Space
• 16:19 – Streetwear, ‘preppy’ American upbringing, and Japanese men’s style
• 21:54 – Outsider’s perspective on U.S. culture, Internet as primary experience
• 27:57 – How Japan’s consumer economy shifted with tourism
• 31:42 – Structuring Blank Space, major characters and running themes
• 42:04 – The “death” of selling out across generations and poptimism rise
• 49:43 – Current perceptions of “the good life,” individualism and its pitfalls
• 53:39 – Digital fatigue, analog/IRL revival, and fashion’s tactile value
• 55:20 – Explosion of indie, high-quality fashion brands, access, and optimism
• 63:55 – Luxury’s consolidation, Chinese consumer influence, streetwear
• 68:45 – China’s rise, cultural export, and the Japan/Korea/Chinese dynamic
• 75:43 – Preppy culture’s unique staying power and hybridization

Tone & Atmosphere

Candid, geeky, and engaging—a genuine behind-the-scenes conversation among fashion and culture obsessives, brimming with first-hand anecdotes, analytical asides, sly industry humor, and real curiosity about where the next wave of creativity will take us.

For readers: This episode is packed with conversational nuance, industry wisdom, and a rare, deep take on fashion as the crucible of culture—highly recommended for anyone curious about why we wear, buy, and aspire the way we do.