Roman Empire

Summary

Fashion People – "Roman Empire"

Podcast Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Lauren Sherman
Guest: Alison Roman

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Episode Overview

This episode features fashion journalist Lauren Sherman in conversation with chef, food writer, and style muse Alison Roman, author of the new cookbook "Something Food from Nothing." The discussion covers Alison’s approach to wardrobe and style through the lens of her book tour and TV appearances, along with deep dives into the costume design of TV series "Landman," the recent Luca Guadagnino versus costume designers controversy, strategies for holiday party dressing, and the best clothing stores in America. Expect candid, behind-the-scenes insights and relatable fashion talk, delivered in Lauren and Alison’s signature engaging, humorous style.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Alison Roman’s Book Tour: Style, Strategy, and Sanity

• Alison has been on a 12-city book tour, adjusting her schedule to incorporate breaks and time with her young child:

  “Even the way that I'm doing it now, which is like coming home in between with breaks and stuff, it’s so much easier...But it's still a lot, because you don't fully get to relax or ease into your everyday life.” (04:09)

• She discusses the shifting sense of professional purpose as her career matures:

  “You sort of start to realize that, like, that isn't the case, like, X doesn't happen, or if X does happen, nothing really changes...It's like a maintenance thing.” (05:18)

• Alison’s style identity has evolved post-pregnancy and with age:

  “I haven't been shopping in two years…just generally being like, who am I? How do I dress? What is my style? I felt super, super lost.” (07:03)

• She collaborated with stylist Doria Santlofer to refine her tour look, balancing practicality (must be able to cook in outfits) and public image.

2. Authenticity in Personal & Public Presentation

• Alison emphasizes realism in both her food and wardrobe:

  “The food that's photographed in my cookbooks is the food I actually make. The clothes that I wear on TV is what I'm actually wearing...I like to sort of appear how I am.” (09:56)

• Lauren draws a generational comparison, noting authenticity and specificity now drive personal branding, unlike the homogeneous, manufactured looks of past media personalities.

3. TV Costume Design: "Landman" Deep Dive

• Both are obsessed with the costuming on "Landman," particularly how showrunner Taylor Sheridan and costume designers create accessible, style-forward looks.
• Lauren attributes its appeal to “coastal elites” to strong casting, witty writing, and costume choices that resonate even with non-fans of the genre:

  “There's something about the show that, like, urban people...are obsessed with Landman in particular.” (14:12)

• Alison’s entry to the show was via a late-night Instagram scroll; she praises Ali Larder’s styling:

  “Ally Larder looks so good…She looks, like, aged, but not aged, you know?” (19:25)

• Costume notes:
  • Billy Bob Thornton: “Cowboy suit” aesthetic, playing against his usual intensity.
  • Demi Moore: “Rich lady in a great suede blazer” (19:37)
  • Activewear for younger women, practical Levi's for oil rig characters—all feel “authentic, relatable, and aspirational.” (20:55)
• Lauren likens the show’s nuanced depiction of clothing and location to cult favorites like "Friday Night Lights."

Memorable Moments:

• On Billy Bob Thornton:

  “I'm loving it for him...He's going to take that check and he's going to ride it into the sunset.” — Alison Roman (18:15)

• Why the costume design feels different:

  “They just got everything right, style porn for us…” — Alison Roman (20:01)

4. Luca Guadagnino’s Costume Designer Controversy

• Lauren summarizes the backlash against Luca Guadagnino’s comments at BoF Voices, where he claimed costume designers “blow” and he prefers fashion designers because they “understand the body.”

  "Truly the most reductive and also incorrect statement ever...just so dumb." — Lauren Sherman (23:01)

• Alison considers it a “misspeak,” dissecting the false hierarchy between fashion and costume design:

  “The assumption that the fashion designer is an artist and the costume designer is sort of like, the labor…so bizarre to overlook that.” (24:50–25:49)

5. The Art and Craft of Costume

• Alison shouts out costume designer and Substack author Mirren (“accent agu alamode”), discussing Mirren’s impact on her own awareness of how clothing interacts with screen personas:

  “She was so radically thoughtful...it was like very eye opening.” (27:02)

• Lauren and Alison praise the depth, taste, and subtlety in Mirren’s film breakdowns.

  “She takes these movies from new to old, and she sort of breaks them down by...here is what they wear, here’s why it’s important.” — Alison Roman (28:30)

6. Wearing High Sport & Event Dressing Identity

• Debate if one’s body is a “high sport body.”

  “I want to be so badly. And then all I could think about was, like, Greta Lee running down the Vogue World Runway in high sport. And I was like, I'm not Greta...I don't know if my body is a high sport body, you know?” — Alison Roman (29:14)

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Holiday Party Dressing: Strategies & Confessions

How to Approach Festive Fashion

• Alison recommends leaning into fun, impractical pieces for holiday parties, especially if you can get help with hosting duties.

  “Now I've liberated myself...I’m like, puffy sleeve, I’m short something, I’m sparkle something...I am unfortunately, like, a black dress person.” (33:55)

• Encourages balancing “tacky and classy.” (35:12)
• Lauren: “I do not wear like threaded sparkly stuff...I would do like a sequin, but I won't do like, shimmery thread type." (36:18)
• Alison recalls wearing a see-through sequined dress while 7+ months pregnant:

  “I wore a bra and underwear and that was it. It was so hot and I was so pregnant and it was such a good look.” (36:41)

• Both agree pregnancy inspires bolder fashion choices; Alison aims to carry that confidence forward.

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What Makes a Great Clothing Store?

(NYT's 50 Best Stores & the State of Shopping)

• Lauren praises the NYT’s recent "50 Best Clothing Stores in America" for its variety and credibility. Criteria were subjective, driven by contributions from 11 reporters and visits.
• In New York, stores like La Garçonne (“unfriendly staff, unhelpful with sizes”), CHCM, Blue In Green, and Outline were discussed.
  • Lauren: “Dover Street Market...That should be the most intimidating experience of your life. It’s the opposite because they are so good at customer service.” (40:24)
• Alison admits to shopping mostly at Outline, praises its friendly staff; reflects on the loss of Brooklyn’s Bird.

  “RIP Bird. Shout out to Jen Mankins. We love you.” — Lauren Sherman (41:54)

• Both discuss the perils and joys of a great shop being “discovered” by the media.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Career Pressure: "There's no magic bullet of this thing is going to change your life...it's really not about any one thing." — Alison Roman (05:17)
• On Authenticity: "It would be sort of my nightmare to meet people out in the world and have them be like, 'Oh, you look so different, or your life is so different than what you present publicly.'" — Alison Roman (10:04)
• On Party Outfits: "Now I can, like, step away from the kitchen at a certain time, which means I can dress up. So it was like a total revelation..." — Alison Roman (33:55)
• On Shopping in America: "The only thing I bought here is feel jeans. Everything else I bought in Paris because it’s Phoebe Filo." — Lauren Sherman (42:09)

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Key Timestamps

• 04:09 – Alison discusses the toll and logistics of book tour travel
• 07:03–09:56 – Alison’s evolving sense of personal style; working with a stylist
• 13:06 – Deep dive into why “Landman” hits fashionably with urban audiences
• 19:25 – Lauren and Alison deconstruct the styling choices on “Landman”
• 23:01 – Luca Guadagnino’s “costume designers blow” controversy
• 27:02 – Importance of thoughtful costume design & Mirren's Substack
• 33:55 – Alison’s lessons in holiday party dressing
• 39:12 – The best clothing stores in America: methodology, favorites, and gripes
• 41:54 – Reminiscence about Brooklyn's Bird and advice on shopping

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Summary Tone

As always, Lauren Sherman’s hosting is lively, witty, and plugged into the industry’s behind-the-scenes realities; Alison Roman’s warm, self-aware, and candid observations keep the episode grounded and relatable. Both approach fashion as something both personal and performative, with room for fun, experimentation, and a healthy disregard for convention. The episode is a treasure trove for anyone interested in the intersection of food, media, personal branding, and the quirks of fashion culture today.

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Listen if:

• You obsess over what to wear to everything from a book tour stop to a casual dinner party
• You’re fascinated by how personal style evolves with career, age, and motherhood
• You want real talk about why some TV costumes are more memorable—and relatable—than others
• You love inside-baseball gossip about the fashion and retail world
• You aspire to balance authenticity with aspiration in your public persona

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Fashion People airs every Tuesday and Friday. Subscribe for more candid fashion discourse and subscribe to Lauren’s Line Sheet for the deeper details.

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

Now open at Hauser and Wirth's 22nd Street Gallery and spanning two floors, Louise Bourgeois's Gathering Wool explores the artist's complex relationship to abstraction through a series of late sculptures, reliefs and works on paper, many of which have never been exhibited before. These will be installed alongside a selection of herbs earlier works to illuminate the consistency of Bourgeois themes and her development of a symbolic abstract language. The exhibition comes with a re release of the publication Louise the Insomnia Drawings and a full slate of programs that invite you to dive deeper into the world of Louise Bourgeois. I cannot wait to see it while I'm in New York this week. Visit the exhibition at 542 W. 22nd St, New York and houserworth.com for more information.

[Optum Representative]

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[Lauren Sherman]

Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Kluft's Fashion and Beauty Memo line sheet and today with me on the show is superstar food writer and chef Alison Roman, author of the Brand new Something Food from Nothing. We're talking fashion on Landman, Luca Guadagnino versus the Costume Designers, Holiday Party dressing and so much more. Happy Tuesday everyone. Hope you're having a great week. I am in New York headed to the Chanel show this afternoon. It is cold, it is snowy. It is what it is. Anyway, I'm very excited. It should be super fun and I will have more details in Wednesday's line sheet and also maybe we'll give you a bit of color on the podcast on Friday. We will see. But you really gotta subscribe to line sheet for the good good deets. I've also got on Monday I had some of the latest and greatest palace intrigue from inside lvmh. Someone asked me today why I don't write more about Richemont. What I would say is if you want me to write about Richemont, give me a call. I can be proactive but not that proactive. I'm not like fishing for stuff. Stuff just comes to me. There's a lot, lot of stuff happening. People like to talk to me. So if you want me to write about Richemont, make me write about Reshaan. I also broke down the ASAP Rocky for Chanel arrangement, what I think that means for the future of the brand. And discuss the Armani board editions, including line sheet star Marco Bizari, who, you know, did a lot of work at Gucci and made that into a really big company. So perhaps he's going to be lending some of his knowledge at Armani. It's super interesting. On Tuesday, Sarah Shapiro is taking us behind the scenes of the most important mall in America, South Coast Plaza. You know, I can't even explain to you how important this mall is to luxury brands. And she is able to break down why I highly recommend that one. And I will be back later in the week.

[Narrator/Announcer]

So let's go.

[Lauren Sherman]

So let's get going with Allison. Allison Roman, welcome to Fashion People. Hello.

[Alison Roman]

I am so happy to be here.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm so happy to have you. How's the tour been?

[Alison Roman]

It's been great. I'm sort of at the tail end. I'm in Portland, Oregon today, and then San Francisco, then la, and then I come home.

[Lauren Sherman]

Perfect. How many cities did you do?

[Alison Roman]

I did 12. 12 or 13. I started in London and then in LA and so it's been, it's been good. I did it sort of differently this time. Normally I do like a two and a half week, like non stop situation. And last time I did that, I was like, I will never do that again. Like, I just, I couldn't do it. I think I was like 38 and I was like, no, never again. And now even the way that I'm doing it now, which is like coming home in between with breaks and stuff, it's so much easier. It's still like a lot because you don't fully get to relax or like ease into your everyday life. You're sort of like always in a heightened state of like intensity.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Alison Roman]

Until you're fully done. But I think now because of the baby, it was, I was just like, I can't do the whole thing being gone like that.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. It's amazing what kids help you prioritize. Yeah.

[Alison Roman]

Like sleeping and like, I don't know, also just work stuff where you're like, am I like, what am I missing that for?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Alison Roman]

Or also, I think also just like having done a book, this is like my fourth book. And I think when it's your first book or even maybe your second book or insert project here, you're sort of like, okay, I'm gonna like do all this stuff and all this media and all this press and all. I'm gonna work with this hard, and then X is gonna happen. And you sort of start to realize that, like, that isn't the case, like, X doesn't happen, or if X does happen, nothing really changes or, I don't know, you're sort of like, okay, what is all this for? There's no, like, magic bullet of this thing is gonna change your life. And it's sort of now I'm at the place in my life where I'm like, okay, it's really not about any one thing changing your life or your career. It's like a maintenance thing, you know? So I. I feel less pressure to say yes to everything and to be everywhere and to do everything and less anxiety about, like, how one singular thing performs, quote, unquote.

[Lauren Sherman]

How do you approach your wardrobe for book tour? Do you have, like, a sponsor? I know you are a partner of Cezanne. Cezanne.

[Alison Roman]

I am. I am a hashtag saisonlover. No. I worked with a friend of mine, Doria Santlofer, who is a stylist.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think this is her first shout out on the podcast. Is it? Love her. So fabulous.

[Alison Roman]

She's so fabulous. I'm also terrified. I'm pronouncing her last name incorrectly.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think that's correct. I have also never said it aloud, and it's a great she. A lot of friends of Doria have been on the podcast.

[Alison Roman]

She's wonderful.

[Lauren Sherman]

So tell me your and Dorius, tell me your and Doria's strategy for. For this. For this tour.

[Alison Roman]

So, I mean, so, yeah, this time last year, I was super pregnant and obviously wasn't doing a lot of shopping. And so that means by my calculations, I haven't been shopping in two years. And so I think, like, in conjunction with that and like, turning 40 and all that comes along with that, just generally of being like, who am I? How do I dress? Like, what. What is my style? I felt super, super lost. And I think in the past, I've. I used a stylist one other time for a press tour, and it was great, but it was also, like, extremely expensive. And I was like, oh, I don't know if I need to do that again, because I. I like going shopping and I. I can do that. But this time I was just like, I don't have the time. And I also am like, who am I? Like, what am I doing? I also find I have this, like, very bizarre. I get, like, really hung up on what am I wearing for a press tour and for an event and for, like, a party.

[Lauren Sherman]

Right.

[Alison Roman]

And I Think that all three of those require such a different vibe from me, but also need to be the same vibe because it's me. But I, I feel like, and I've always felt this way, like, if I'm on camera for a morning show and it's like 7:30 in the morning and I'm making beans, I'm not gonna be wearing like an elaborate garment. And so it's definitely not gonna be the same outfit that I would be wearing at a party. I'm not wearing the Alaia laser cutout bodysuit at 7:30 in the morning, obviously, even though it was fabulous. But it sort of took me a long time to determine, like, what is that, like, press look versus what is my everyday look versus whatever. And so she really helped me figure that out, I think this time around. But I just get like, so hung up on, like, would I actually cook in this? Is this practical to wear in the morning? Which I think a lot of people don't care about or think about, but I do. And she was really helpful in honoring that because I've also worked with people in the past that don't honor that. And they're always trying to put me in something where I'm like, well, I wouldn't cook in this. And I feel like this is like, not appropriate for 7:30 in the morning. Not like I'm a Mormon, but like, I, I don't know, I'm just like, this feels outlandish.

[Lauren Sherman]

You're not looking at all the Mormon blogs either, I assume. But I, But I think also I have noticed you wear jean like you wore jeans on some of the morning shows. Right. Like you. I feel like the way that you use fashion, I'm sure a lot. Do a lot of your fans ask you about your clothes and things? Because you, you, you to me, sort of exemplify what the person who is cooking your meals wants to dress like too, which is, is it shows that you're like paying attention to it even if you're just wearing jeans and a sweater. It's like nice and feels like stuff you would actually wear offline or whatever.

[Alison Roman]

Yeah. Thank you. I, I mean, I think that that is what I try to do regardless in my work. Like the food that is photographed in my cookbooks is like the food that I actually make. And then we take a picture of it. Like the clothes that I wear on tv. Like, it's what I'm actually wearing. Like, I don't have hair and makeup for like the times that I'm photographed for my cookbooks Like, I. I do feel sort of not responsibility, but, like, I. I like to sort of appear how I am. I like to sort of present as if this is life and this is real. Because that feels important to me. I like. That's what I like to consume in my media. Like, that's what I, like, appreciate when other people do. And so that's just what I feel most comfortable. And it would be sort of my nightmare to meet people out in the world and have them be like, oh, you look so different, or your life is so different than what you present publicly. And I think that most people who know me are like, oh, your life and what you present are pretty much exactly the same.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. It's very interesting to think about generationally, how you present versus someone who is doing a similar thing to you 20 years ago. And. And how they would, like, just be in clothes that someone sort of got for them from Target or whatever, and. And there wouldn't be any. And it requires. Because of, like, the sort of niche ification of our culture, it requires, like, a very specific. To be very specific in order to appeal to a broad audience.

[Alison Roman]

Yeah. It feels like very prescriptive. Sell a lot of books. Yeah. And I'm sure there are some publishers that are like, you have to wear this, and this should be your look. And again, 20 years ago, I'm sure that was a lot more manufactured. And I think some people, regardless of their profession, if they're in the public eye, maybe prefer to have a bit of separation. And they're like, well, this is my public Persona and this is my private Persona, and that's how they feel more comfortable. And I do understand the appeal because it is sort of intense and vulnerable to be like, well, this is me all the time. Yeah, so I get that. But, yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, you're going the aina route.

[Alison Roman]

Yeah, I'm going from the shop and down. Exactly. And what you see is what you get. I was ina from Halloween.

[Lauren Sherman]

I. I saw that.

[Alison Roman]

Which I was like, is that close? Yeah. I was like, can I do that? I mean, obviously, it was the world's laziest Halloween costume. I decided, like, the day before I was gonna do it. And I don't know if anyone in my neighborhood got it. Like, I think they just, like, people were like, oh, great haircut. I was like, great haircut. I was like, this is so a wig. What are you talking about? And I was like, oh, I guess I do just wear this outfit. And it wasn't maybe, perhaps enough of a costume.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, the Internet. Got it. And that's all that matters.

[Alison Roman]

That's right.

[Lauren Sherman]

Have you been able to watch any Landman while you were on this tour?

[Alison Roman]

So I just started Landman. Not only have I been able to, it's pretty much all I've been able to. I've done so much good television watching the past, I would say two or three weeks before that I hadn't watched a single episode of anything. I barely knew what was going on. But I've really caught up and boy, am I having a good time.

[Lauren Sherman]

So let's discuss Landman. I'm obsessed with Landman. I'm obsessed with the fashion and the clothing in Landman, the costume designer. I need to triple check this, but I believe it's Janie Bryant who is the Mad Men costume designer. And I don't believe she was on the first season. I think she maybe was on the second.

[Alison Roman]

That makes a lot of sense.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh yeah, she breaks down Landman's iconic styles and it. Maybe she was last season too, I don't know. Anyway, I think she's maybe just this season. Well, we'll see. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. The point being, I'm curious what, what attracted you to Landman? I. I want someone to write and I talked about this with Avery Trufelman last week too. I want someone to write an essay or an article or something about why like people who live in cities who would not necessarily watch a show from. Of this genre are obsessed with Landman in particular. But I'm curious, what drew you to it?

[Alison Roman]

What do you mean by like what. What about the demo? What, like what? So like, what are you suggesting?

[Lauren Sherman]

So the guy. Okay, what's. I always forget this guy's name. It's really embarrassing.

[Alison Roman]

The guy is Taylor.

[Lauren Sherman]

Taylor Sheridan.

[Alison Roman]

Taylor Sheridan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

So Taylor Sheridan, obviously as Yellowstone, very popular everywhere.

[Alison Roman]

But like did you know he was a failed actor?

[Lauren Sherman]

I didn't.

[Alison Roman]

I just found this out.

[Lauren Sherman]

I. He's. He's a good looking guy. I can believe it. Fine looking guy.

[Alison Roman]

Yeah, Very, very good looking. I think he's good looking.

[Lauren Sherman]

So I. There's something about Landman that people who. I tried to watch Yellowstone, I couldn't watch it, couldn't do it, couldn't get through it. There's something about the show that like urban people who live. I don't. We used this word last week, but this coastal elites type thing which is. Feels like five years ago and not of my world, but people who live in New York and la, you're too.

[Alison Roman]

In it that's why you are the coastal elite. Unfortunately. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

New York, L.A. san Francisco are really into this show. A lot of movie producers, TV producers, showrunners, they all love it. And I've been trying to figure out what it is. I think it may be that the actors are all really great and people who we are interested in, and they are sort of carrying this sort of extremely silly. But the other thing is, the last two episodes, I'm all caught up. And the first season, admittedly, but you'll get there. The first season, I fell asleep. No, I fell asleep every single episode. The last two episodes, I've stayed up the whole time. And at the end of this last episode, my husband was like, oh, this show has gotten good. I was interested in what was happening rather than just the characters. There's something about it that is appealing to people who would normally sort of turn up their nose or just, like, not want to engage with Taylor Sheridan content. Maybe it's the writing. I don't know. I know he writes everything, but there's something about this show in particular, and I'm just curious why you have glommed onto it, gravitated to it.

[Alison Roman]

Well, yeah, embarrass. Embarrassingly, my gateway to the show was like a 2am Instagram scroll, and I stumbled upon Ali Larder's page, and I was like, allie Larder? I was like, what is she doing these days? And I was like, oh, my God, Ally Larder looks so good. How old is she? And then I started watching all these interviews with her, and then she was talking about her character, and she was talking about her clothes and the cross, and, you know, she was talking about her family and her kids watching her be this character. And I was like, well, what is this character? Like, I gotta know. And so then I started watching it. But also my husband Max, who's like, a pretty harsh critic of television and movies, it's his industry. So he's like, you know, pretty harsh judge, but also consumes a lot of it. He loves it. And so I'm. Which really just reinforces your thesis here. And so I was like, okay, well, if he likes it, then I'll probably like it. But it's like the right side of camp. And. But I do also think that, like, for me, I was to say I was nostalgic for Ali Larder feels like a bridge too far, maybe a little dramatic. But, I don't know, I was, like, hooked by her.

[Lauren Sherman]

I would call her a revelation.

[Alison Roman]

I mean, she's absolutely incredible. She's so I heard the daughter. I heard the daughter is dating Glenn Powell. Interesting fact checker on that one. I mean, we will need to change fast and loose. Yeah, but that checks out.

[Lauren Sherman]

I mean, aesthetically, that makes sense. Totally. He never seems to be dating anyone, so that's interesting.

[Alison Roman]

There's also. I know. There's also something really nice about Billy Bob Thornton. Thornton, which I always mispronounce his last name as, like, this serious sort of like, dramatic actor who I grew up in, and we grew up in the era of him being like, I would say, self serious, intense, sort of the Angelina Jolie of it all. Like, a little dark in this, like, wildly lighthearted sort of comedic role. I'm loving it. I'm loving it for him. I also think he's sort of like, it. Like, I'm like, I'm. I'm done here. I don't need to be that guy. And if this is it for me, he's going to take that check and he's going to ride it into the sunset. And I'm so happy for him. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

And. And I do think the clothes sort of, I don't know, underscore or play into all that stuff. You're talking about. Like, Ally Larder is having a great time. She's. It's totally fun. They're dressing her in amazing jeans and her face looks amazing. It looks like she hasn't done anything. I'm sure she's done something, but she looks awesome.

[Alison Roman]

She looks, like, aged, but not aged, you know?

[Lauren Sherman]

And he. Yeah, yeah. And he's like a suit. Cowboy. A cowboy suit or whatever. Like, he's in, like, Western her, which.

[Alison Roman]

We love to see.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, yeah. And then Demi Moore in the second season has a much bigger role, and she's like rich lady and is wearing, like. Yeah. And great suede blazer. She also looks great. It's. There is something, I think it's a mix of. Also the house that they live in is weird and looks like it would be in that area of Texas and just terrible.

[Alison Roman]

And they just got everything right style porn for us. And, like, in the same way, the last time I felt this way was like, Friday Night Lights, where I'm like, wow, this life is so different from me and mine and the way that I grew up, like, this was not my high school experience. This was not my family experience. This was not my culture. And I grew up in la. And I don't know. There's something exactly about, like, it's dramedy vibes. I thought when the show first came out that it was strictly drama. It was more yellowstone and I just wasn't interested. And now I'm realizing what it's actually all about. I'm like, I'm all the way in.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it gets, it doesn't take itself too soon. It does get better.

[Alison Roman]

No, hard to imagine.

[Lauren Sherman]

It really does. We looked at each other and we were like, oh, now we're actually interested and invested in these characters. Whereas before it was just like really nice background noise. The other thing is Ali Larder and her daughter on the show who potentially is dating Glen Powell in real life.

[Alison Roman]

Maybe.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Wear a lot of activewear and I just think the way they use the clothes is very interesting. And even like the guys on the oil rig and then the girlfriend, the widower, girlfriend of the sun. She is like in Levi. I don't know. It's just the whole thing is great. I highly recommend it.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Now open at Hauser and Wirth's 22nd Street Gallery and spanning two floors, Louise Bourgeois Gathering Wool explores the artist's complex relationship to abstraction through a series of late sculptures, reliefs and works on paper, many of which have never been exhibited before. These will be installed alongside a selection of earlier works to illuminate the consistency of bourgeois themes and her development of a symbolic abstract language. The exhibition comes with a re release of the publication Louise the Insomnia Drawings and a full slate of programs that invite you to dive deeper into the world of Louise Bourgeois. I cannot wait to see it while I'm in New York this week. Visit the exhibition at 542 W. 22nd St, New York and hauserworth.com for more information.

[Dr. Mary Claire Haver]

Hi, I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a board certified OB GYN and menopause specialist. My new podcast, Unpaused, is the place for bold, unfiltered conversations about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life. Every week I sit down with medical experts, cultural icons, and powerhouse women to talk about what really matters. Your health, your power and your future, recovering hormones, identity, finances, relationships and so much more. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow unpaused with me, Dr. Mary Claire Haver. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren Sherman]

We'Re going to talk a little bit more about costume design because our beloved Luca Guadagnino has hot water. It is crazy. So Business of Fashion does this conference every year called Voices. I used to work at Business of Fashion. I would go to this conference. It's very fun. Like 150 people come. It's industry executives People stay up very late. I used to go to bed and go to sleep before everybody, but everyone has a great time. He goes and talks to Tim Blanks, who's BoF's editor at large, about, I don't know, being interested in fashion. And Luca Guadagnino has famously worked with a lot of fashion designers. He has hired Jonathan Anderson to do his costumes for, I think, three of his movies at this point. He also works with this woman, Julia, who used to be a knitwear designer at Celine when Phoebe Filo was the. And then he also collaborated with Raf Simmons on wardrobes for at least a bigger splash. But maybe. Or maybe it was I am love or both. But anyway, he goes and talks to Tim, and they're having, like, a nice conversation, and he basically says, I think normal, like, traditional costume designers blow, and that I would only work with a fashion designer because fashion designers understand the body, and costume designers just look at the clothes, which was truly the most reductive and also incorrect statement ever. And, like, I understand why he wants to work with costume, with. With traditional designers because he likes fashion and he wants someone who has a sense of that. But there are costume designers who also have a sense of that. It is just such a goofy thing. Why did he say this? It's just so dumb. The only people that are mad are the costume designers. But I just thought it was silly.

[Alison Roman]

Yeah, I'm sure he was. It was sort of a. I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that it was a misspeak. But, yeah, I think that the assumption that the fashion designer is an artist and the costume designer is sort of like, the labor.

[Lauren Sherman]

Right.

[Alison Roman]

And, like, they're not necessarily an artist. And he obviously fancies himself an artist and works with artists and puts himself in a different category. And to be a costume designer, it's like, well, that's not art, perhaps to him, but which translates then to the body and this and the intentionality behind things. But I think that, to your point with Landman, there is so much that goes into the choices that are made to illustrate, like, the character and the plot and the story and the energy that are extremely pointed, that go beyond the body, that go into the story, that, like, only make the director better, and it's, like, so bizarre to overlook that.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I was thinking about Colleen Atwood, who I did a panel for a Puck event last year with Jonathan Anderson, actually, and Colleen Atwood and two other costume designers, and she was doing the Beetlejuice sequel or whatever. And, I mean, she's done so much. She's worked with Tim Burton, she's worked with all these different people. But then she's also. She did one battle after another, which, like the, the costumes. Yeah, we, I mean, we loved it. And if you look at the costumes or the clothes in that film, and Paul Thomas Anderson usually works with this guy, Mark Bridges. I don't know why he didn't work with him on this, but like, those were. It was this like the thing that Luca Guadagnino was talking about is what she did in that movie. And it just sort of. I don't know, it was such a weird thing for him. I don't know why he had to say it. I'm the only one who cares. But now, but now I'm, I'm.

[Alison Roman]

Well, now all your listeners care because they care about what you care about. So you got a bunch of people upset on your behalf.

[Lauren Sherman]

And, and we were, prior to chatting, we were talking about a substack that you love from a costume designer that we both know.

[Alison Roman]

Yes, she. So she, Mirren, she. Actually, I had an ill fated CNN show a few years back and she was a friend of mine that I met through an ex and she is also a costume designer. But she also agreed to style me for the show, even though it wasn't like, I think what she typically did. She was so radically thoughtful in the way that she styled me. She would be like running through the episodes and being like, okay, this one takes place in Greece and you're making this like, here's the color palette, here's what you should. We like. She was so. It was my first time working with somebody at that level that wasn't just like, here are some great outfits that you'll look great in for an event. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, you know, if I ever go the TV route again, hopefully I can work with somebody like her or her or whatever that sort of considers like the screen in the same way about like what you wear and the content that you're presenting. But it was like very eye opening. And I think that, like, I've always, you know, when I do cookbook stuff and photographs, like, I try to like, be mindful of like the clothing and how it interacts with the food and the photos. But she took it to such a crazy level. But so her substack. I'm gonna. I, I don't know how to say this. Mirin accent.

[Lauren Sherman]

I, I was gonna say I. I also don't know how to say it.

[Alison Roman]

I think it's ago you do it. Accent.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think it's accent. Agu Alam. Alamode, obviously, but agu. I. I, I goo.

[Alison Roman]

That's so Mirren.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's great.

[Alison Roman]

But she takes. Yeah, she takes these movies from new to old, and she sort of breaks them down by, like, not to call it a mood board is a little reductive, but it's sort of like, here is what they wear. Here's why it's important. And then sort of occasionally, like, the shoppable lengths of, like, how to, like, sort of get the look, but really not in a cheesy way. She's so classy. She really does it in a way that's, like, not cringe at all. I highly recommend it, but it's, like, good for sort of film nerds and for costume nerds and for people who appreciate clothing and history and film. And she just does a great job. It's like, it's just a hobby for.

[Lauren Sherman]

Her, and she has great personal style. A big fan of high sport, as we all are.

[Alison Roman]

Yeah. Who isn't? I wore some high sport. Dory put me in some high sport, and I was like, am I a high sport girl? I want to be so badly. And then all I could think about was, like, Greta Lee running down the Vogue World Runway in high sport. And I was like, I'm not Greta. I mean, who is? But I'm like, oh, I like, I just. I didn't know. I don't know if my body is a high sport body, you know?

[Lauren Sherman]

You know, I. I understand. I think you are, because I am also. And I also do not look like Greta. She is the best advertisement in those floral pants that. That Alyssa Zachary could ever get. But I think you are.

[Alison Roman]

Thank you. I appreciate that. But I love the way they feel.

[Lauren Sherman]

They feel great. I got the peplum top, which I feel like you should get.

[Alison Roman]

Which one is that?

[Lauren Sherman]

It's a. It's a little, like, peplum tube top for the holiday season.

[Alison Roman]

Oh, okay. Don't mind if I do. I she Doria put me in this, like, it's sort of like a tunicy top. It's, like, longer than a top and shorter than a dress. And then these, like, aprony. Yeah. Checkered pants, which is something I would never wear, but I was like, okay. And that's an example of me being like, oh, this works for one time on tv, and I'll probably never wear it again because it doesn't fit into my life. But that's what's fun about getting dressed for those things. And Having somebody dress you, I can.

[Lauren Sherman]

See that it's like a different version but still you.

[Alison Roman]

Yeah, you're like oh, I am playing.

[Lauren Sherman]

Dress up a little bit.

[Alison Roman]

But yeah, a different version of myself.

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[Lauren Sherman]

Do you ever stop and think about how wild it is that you spend so much on rent every month and get absolutely nothing back for it? BILT is the loyalty program for renters that rewards you for your biggest monthly expense rent. You pay your rent through BILT and earn points every month. Points you can redeem towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, Amazon.com purchases, fitness classes and so much more. There are even exclusive perks from more than 4,45,000 local merchants. So every time you grab coffee, order dinner or shop nearby, you're earning built points on top of your usual cards rewards. Personally, I'd use it to take more boutique fitness classes. I especially love the ones with infrared, sauna, weights and just way too much time. I need to chill out on the exercise. It's finally a way to make rent feel a little less painful and a lot more rewarding. Join the loyalty program for [e-mail] fashion that's J O I N B I L T.com fashion. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. So how do you approach holiday party dressing generally? Because it's, it's. I feel like it is a similar sort of methodology as these like event dressing things. But you are very good. I mean you have. You dress up when you do videos for and you, you throw parties in the. In your videos and things. But you, I feel like you, you're like a good party dresser.

[Alison Roman]

What would you wear to party?

[Lauren Sherman]

You love to party. You love to party.

[Alison Roman]

I do. I do.

[Lauren Sherman]

What do you suggest people to people for as they get ready for holiday party dressing? I am, I am going to Marissa Meltzer's holiday party this weekend.

[Alison Roman]

Very exciting in la. That's why you're coming to my party.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Alison Roman]

Which would backyard which I.

[Lauren Sherman]

But you know I'm disappointed, but I'm also excited to wear my new 1980s red blazer to Marisa's party.

[Alison Roman]

So good. I'm going to. I'm going to get all the hot gossip from you and several other friends will be in attendance. But I will be saying, I don't.

[Lauren Sherman]

I hope the police come. I do, too.

[Alison Roman]

Oh, God. It wouldn't be.

[Lauren Sherman]

I feel like I don't know how many people she invited this time, but it's.

[Alison Roman]

It seems, hopefully too many.

[Lauren Sherman]

Hopefully too many. So what is your approach to holiday party dressing? If you don't have this high sport peplum, what are you going to be wearing?

[Alison Roman]

I feel like I wasted a lot of my youth and, like, prior years of my life not dressing up enough. I think that I. Because I'm often hosting and I'm often cooking, like, one to three hams. I'm, like, restocking the bar. I'm making martinis. Like, I'm working, Like, I am working my own parties. And so it never felt appropriate to, like, get dressed up. Cause I was like, well, I'm working. Right? In the past two to three years, I've started, like, getting people to help me, like, one or two people in the kitchen to assist, to, like, offload some stuff. And with the additional help, I've upped my dressing game. I'm like, oh, well, now I can, like, step away from the kitchen at a certain time, which means I can dress up. So it was like, a total revelation that while I didn't have to work the entire night, I could actually put on a crazy outfit and, like, something that I wasn't going to spill ham fat on. And because I'm, like, a pretty involved cook, like, I. There's a 0% chance I'm not going to spill something on myself. So I couldn't wear something precious. And now I've liberated myself from that, and I really look forward to dressing up. And so I'm like, puffy sleeve. I'm short something. I'm sparkle something. I'm. I am unfortunately, like, a black dress person.

[Lauren Sherman]

Same.

[Alison Roman]

But I do try to incorporate, like, a velvet or a bow or a lace or organza situation. I think that you can really ride the line between tacky and classy and push festive, like, a little bit without feeling weird about it. It's sort of like the only time of year to take advantage of that. And I'm like, why not? I think I wore this really fun, like, Nina Ricci dress two years ago that I, you know, the only bad Thing about that is, like, you wear the Nina Ricci dress once and you get photographed in it at the party and it's like, well, when are you gonna wear that dress again? You know?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Alison Roman]

But that said, it was sort of like not a dress that I would necessarily wear any other time, but it was perfect for that event.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I feel like it is truly the time to wear something that you wouldn't wear any other time or buy some, like, fun vintage thing that you would not wear any other time and just like, enjoy your life. The one, my one rule is I do not wear like threaded sparkly stuff. What would that be called? Not.

[Alison Roman]

It's a threaded sparkly.

[Lauren Sherman]

I would do like a sequin, but I won't do like, like shimmery thread type. There is a word. I see it. But I took the red eye last night.

[Alison Roman]

So, like shimmer, like shimmer fabric you won't do. But you'll do like sequined on a thing.

[Lauren Sherman]

Maybe. Yes, occasionally. I am just not a sparkles person for my clothing.

[Alison Roman]

I hear you and I'm not either. I own exactly one sparkle garment. It is sequins and it is completely see through. It is long sleeve, floor length, skin tight, sequined. And I wore it last year when I was seven and a half months pregnant and it was awesome. I wore a bra and underwear and that was it. It was so hot and I was so pregnant and it was such a good look. I now being unpregnant, I don't know that I would wear it. I don't know that I would have the confidence. But I did have the confidence.

[Lauren Sherman]

Then you're pregnant. I know. This is the thing about being pregnant is the only time many women wear a bikini.

[Alison Roman]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Which is funny.

[Alison Roman]

You just feel a little bit more that. But I am taking those lessons with me now and especially into the holiday season. I'm like, well, yeah, I looked great. I felt great. I was like, oh, I am festive. And so maybe a sparkle or perhaps one sequin will find its way into my life this year.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I got some pearlescent big earrings and I have a red charvet shirt. I'll be good. And. And I do also have this peplum. And I also have a lot of other clothes that have nowhere to wear.

[Alison Roman]

You do a red lip.

[Lauren Sherman]

Red lip.

[Alison Roman]

Lauren, if I may, I feel like your best accessory is your hair. I feel like you can go anywhere in any outfit and do like the Mystic Pizza Julia Roberts hair thing and try it. And you are dressed up. You're like that is the thing. That is the outfit.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's true. It's true. My hair is the statement.

[Alison Roman]

That's the thing we all want.

[Lauren Sherman]

You are going to do a little shopping. You're gonna head over to Frances May, one of Portland's great shops, to look around. I was telling you that there was the New York Times published this weekend, a very interesting list of the 50 best clothing stores in America. I don't believe Frances May was on that. Don't quote me. Stand up comedy was. But have you been. You haven't had time to check this list out. Yes, you should go. It's great.

[Alison Roman]

No, I. It just came out last week.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes, it just came out, like over the weekend.

[Alison Roman]

I haven't read a single word in.

[Lauren Sherman]

Like, anything right now. All the, like, best ofs are coming out and it's pretty intense. And I would say I'm not impressed with many of them, but I really thought this was really well done and not just because I know a lot of the writers who worked on it. Misty White Seidel, who is. Was one of the lead writers. But, you know, I thought that they did a very good job at choosing. There were things that were left out that I was like, oh, that's interesting that they picked this over that. But generally, what was the criteria?

[Alison Roman]

Was it clothing best? Like small business clothing stores in America?

[Lauren Sherman]

Exactly. And they.

[Alison Roman]

Men's, women, etc.

[Lauren Sherman]

Men's and women's. They did have a methodology, although it didn't. There was no sort of rigor to the methodology. There were, I think, 11 reporters who. Who weighed in. And then I'm sure they went and visited every store. It felt like that from. From the way the list netted out. But it did just, you know, there aren't. They. They. Omari's was on there. CHCM was on there.

[Alison Roman]

What was in it? What was on there In New York?

[Lauren Sherman]

In New York. La Garcon, which, you know, okay, it's tough. What else?

[Alison Roman]

Why is it so hard?

[Lauren Sherman]

The thing about La Garcon, and I've said this many times, is that La Garcon has the right idea, but the. When you go in there, the people are not friendly and you have to be friendly. Or you say, I want to try on seven things. I'm going to spend tons of money. And they're like, it's going to take a half an hour for me to go. Find your sizes. This needs to.

[Alison Roman]

And they probably don't have it when you do ask for it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Exactly. I think Dover Street Market, honestly, every Single store should be looking at the way their customer service works.

[Alison Roman]

I'm sure they're like, joyful in there.

[Lauren Sherman]

I would say it's amazing.

[Alison Roman]

Borderline joyful.

[Lauren Sherman]

And they are. That should be the most intimidating experience of your life. It's the opposite because they are so good at customer service and I hope it translates to sales for them. But the reality of it is. And I think Dover street was not included. Probably it's too big. I think it was all. And they only picked one location of every store that they. That they chose. If. If there were multiple. But yeah. And. And blue and green or blue and cream. The, like Japanese menswear store was on there. I don't think Ben store was. Which I was kind of surprised in outline was not. But like, again, they had stores in Kansas City. It was only 50, so they really had to. That's a narrow smallest. Yeah. But I thought they did a good job. And, you know, kudos to them because that kind of crap is. I'm sure you've had to do that before. And it's not fun putting these, like, dumb lists together.

[Alison Roman]

Yeah, lists are impossible. Especially with like a national scope. I can't imagine. I don't even pretend to. I don't know anything about national. I don't even know where to shop in New York. Like, if somebody asks me for, like, I go to Outline because it's three blocks from where I live and it's a fantastic store and everyone there is really nice and the clothes are great. But beyond that, I'm like, I am such at a loss. I used to go to Bird a lot in my youth and they closed.

[Lauren Sherman]

RIP Bird. Shout out to Jen Menkins. We love you.

[Alison Roman]

I know one of the originals.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think Outline is great. Honestly, I don't shop in America. The one place I do shop, she.

[Alison Roman]

Doesn'T shop in America.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm looking at my outfit right now. The only thing I bought here is feel jeans on F E E L jeans online. Everything else I. I bought in Paris because it's Phoebe Filo.

[Alison Roman]

Ah, no.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I'm.

[Alison Roman]

It isn't.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it is.

[Alison Roman]

You're pilled. You're. You're done.

[Lauren Sherman]

You know what? This was not as expensive as you would imagine. That's what I was like.

[Alison Roman]

It looks expensive.

[Lauren Sherman]

Thank you.

[Alison Roman]

See my problem, I'm wearing. I'm wearing a Kate sweater and it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Has like the sweater.

[Alison Roman]

Four moth holes in it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Is that the sweater's problem or.

[Alison Roman]

Yeah, well, so. But it's not the sweater's fault. But it's also not a spill or a stain, which would decidedly be me. My fault. Which.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Alison Roman]

Does. I do. My sweaters do fall victim to that. This is sort of a fault of the universe.

[Lauren Sherman]

The environment.

[Alison Roman]

The environment. And I have whatever all to say that cashmere is trouble for me.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Well, it's a beautiful marled gray, though. I really like it.

[Alison Roman]

Do you think there's a world in which, like a few moth holes is, like, kind of chic?

[Lauren Sherman]

I think it is for you.

[Alison Roman]

Okay, you can pull it up. It's very me. It's very on brand.

[Lauren Sherman]

It is. It's. It's perfect. So one place you need to go when. When you're in LA next week. And I will leave you. I'm sure you've been there before, but was on the list is Scout. Have you been there?

[Alison Roman]

Oh, yes, I have.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Alison Roman]

Fabulous. Okay.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's so good. And I was so glad they included it. I. You also get like. I get a little nervous when they include things like that because then there's going to be annoying pe. Now when I go, there are more annoying people there. And you're like, there's so many people here. And I part. You know, we're all part of the problem. But it is just such a great show in la.

[Alison Roman]

I find la, it's not as big of a problem because there's such a barrier to entry in Los Angeles. Like, you have to get in your car, you have to park, you have the traffic. In New York, there's no barrier to entry. Anyone can be anywhere in 20 minutes. And they are.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's true.

[Alison Roman]

It's like there's nothing prohibiting you from swarming a place at any given moment. So.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, if you have time, I would say right now it's very good. And I got a really pretty pink dress, which was not my thing, but I'll send you a photo of it. It's like. It's exciting. It was.

[Alison Roman]

I do need a holiday. Look, I have a few parties coming up in December that I have simply nothing to wear. So.

[Lauren Sherman]

Alison, thank you for joining me. This was so fun. Please come back. You don't have to have a reason. You're a fashion person. It's enough.

[Alison Roman]

Oh, my God. That is the highest praise. You're everyone's favorite. And this was so fun. Thank you for having me.

[Lauren Sherman]

So fun. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of Editorial Operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.

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[Alison Roman]

Com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed Flow hacker 35 gigabytes of network busy taxes and fees extra. Cmntmobile.

[Lauren Sherman]

Com.