Scully Says

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fashion People – Episode: Scully Says Release Date: May 16, 2025

Hosts:

• Lauren Sherman: Puck correspondent and writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet.
• James Scully: Renowned casting director and retailer, known for his outspoken views in the fashion industry.

---

1. Introduction to James Scully and His Career Transition

Timestamp: [04:23] – [07:44]

Lauren Sherman welcomes James Scully to the show, highlighting his extensive experience in the fashion industry. James shares his journey from New York City to the Hudson Valley, detailing his move during the COVID-19 pandemic after his partner was laid off from Ralph Lauren. This transition marked a significant shift in his career, steering him towards retail and eventually opening his own store.

Notable Quote:

James Scully: "We live here. And that was it. And then we just kind of adapted as it went on."
[06:30]

---

2. Reflecting on New York Fashion in the 1980s

Timestamp: [07:44] – [25:54]

James reminisces about the vibrant New York fashion scene of the 1980s, characterized by iconic designers like Calvin Klein, Ralph Lauren, Donna Karan, and emerging talents such as Jean Paul Gaultier and Matsuda. He discusses the dynamic nature of Fashion Week during this era, emphasizing the diversity and creativity that defined the industry's zenith.

Key Points:

• The transformation of Bergdorf Goodman from a "stodgy store" to a modern fashion hub.
• The bustling schedules of Fashion Week, with multiple shows and the rise of supermodels.
• The collaborative spirit among designers, casting directors, and models.

Notable Quote:

James Scully: "It was really buzzy and there was a lot of attention on young New Yorkers at the time."
[22:00]

---

3. Evolution of Designer Stores and Retail Dynamics

Timestamp: [25:54] – [37:01]

Lauren probes into the evolution of designer boutiques and department stores during James's tenure. James elaborates on the prominence of stores like Charivari, Barney’s, Bendals, and Diane B., highlighting their role in introducing avant-garde designers and fostering a unique shopping experience. He recounts his own experiences applying for jobs at these stores and eventually working in window display and merchandising.

Key Points:

• The significance of Charivari in bringing Japanese designers to America.
• The eclectic and distinct atmospheres of various department stores.
• James's rise within the retail sector, moving from sales to merchandising and eventually influencing store layouts.

Notable Quote:

James Scully: "Every store was a completely different world. And it was just fun to see all of these things at one time."
[35:00]

---

4. Transition from Retail to Casting Director

Timestamp: [37:01] – [55:32]

James discusses his transition from retail to becoming a casting director after leaving Charivari. Working with Kevin Crier and Associates, he describes his involvement in producing and casting for high-profile fashion shows, including collaborations with Tom Ford and significant contributions to the visibility of brands like Gucci.

Key Points:

• The hands-on nature of producing fashion shows in the 1980s and 1990s.
• The impact of Tom Ford on redefining casting strategies to emphasize aesthetic over mere presence.
• The collaborative environment and how it fostered a close-knit community among models, designers, and casting directors.

Notable Quotes:

James Scully: "Models sold clothes and the performance sold the clothes."
[46:30]
James Scully: "It was just like, this is Linda in the world of Valentino. This is Limbit in the world of Tom Ford."
[49:00]

---

5. Addressing Abusive Practices in the Fashion Industry

Timestamp: [55:32] – [70:48]

James sheds light on the darker side of the fashion industry, particularly the exploitation and abuse of young models. He recounts incidents where models were subjected to harsh treatment and the pressures of unrealistic beauty standards, leading to mental health issues. James narrates his efforts to combat these practices by advocating for better protections and establishing charters to ensure the welfare of young talent.

Key Points:

• The shift from models as individuals with distinct personalities to mere objects.
• The rise of stylists' power leading to the dehumanization of models.
• James's role in creating the LVMH and Vogue charters to protect minors in the industry.
• The impact of social media in exposing abusive practices.

Notable Quotes:

James Scully: "You're not moving here to be an artist, you're not moving here to be a banker, you're moving here because for four years you're going to pretend you're Sarah Jessica."
[10:37]
James Scully: "You have to never ask a child to do an adult's job."
[62:50]

---

6. Founding Jamestown: Reinventing Retail in Hudson Valley

Timestamp: [70:48] – [88:39]

Transitioning from casting to retail, James talks about opening Jamestown, his boutique in Hudson Valley. He explains the inspiration behind the store, drawing from his extensive network and love for unique, transformable clothing. James emphasizes the importance of creating a destination shopping experience that emphasizes personal connections and purposeful shopping, moving away from the impersonal nature of large department stores.

Key Points:

• The conceptualization of Jamestown as a destination store inspired by beloved boutiques.
• Collaboration with designers and creatives to curate a unique product selection.
• The role of word-of-mouth and personal networks in building the store's reputation.
• Achieving financial success through a focused and authentic retail approach.

Notable Quotes:

James Scully: "It's the transformative power of clothes."
[82:50]
James Scully: "Destination shopping has been a thing for a while."
[83:44]
James Scully: "What makes it work is keeping it small and personal."
[83:44]

---

7. Reflections on the Changing Retail Landscape

Timestamp: [88:10] – End

In the concluding segment, Lauren and James discuss the challenges and future of retail in the digital age. James reflects on the success of Jamestown by maintaining a curated selection of unique items and fostering an inviting in-store experience. He contrasts this with the broader industry's shift towards online retail and mass-market strategies, advocating for the continued relevance of specialized, in-person shopping destinations.

Key Points:

• The importance of unique product offerings and personal customer experiences.
• The decline of traditional department stores in favor of niche boutiques.
• The effectiveness of social media and word-of-mouth in promoting Jamestown.
• James's optimism about the future of small, purposeful retail spaces.

Notable Quote:

James Scully: "Nothing makes me happier than when someone comes in the store, whether they buy or not, and just say like, I had a great time here."
[85:30]

---

Conclusions and Takeaways

• Industry Transformation: The fashion industry has undergone significant changes from the vibrant, collaborative 1980s scene to a more fragmented and, at times, exploitative environment.

• Advocacy and Change: Individuals like James Scully play a crucial role in advocating for ethical practices and protecting vulnerable talent within the industry.

• Retail Reinvention: In an era dominated by online shopping, small, purpose-driven boutiques like Jamestown demonstrate the enduring value of personalized, in-store experiences.

• Sustainability and Authenticity: Emphasizing sustainability and unique, transformative clothing resonates with modern consumers seeking meaningful fashion choices.

---

Notable Quotes Extracted

1. James Scully: "We live here. And that was it. And then we just kind of adapted as it went on."
   [06:30]

2. James Scully: "It was really buzzy and there was a lot of attention on young New Yorkers at the time."
   [22:00]

3. James Scully: "Every store was a completely different world. And it was just fun to see all of these things at one time."
   [35:00]

4. James Scully: "Models sold clothes and the performance sold the clothes."
   [46:30]

5. James Scully: "You have to never ask a child to do an adult's job."
   [62:50]

6. James Scully: "Nothing makes me happier than when someone comes in the store, whether they buy or not, and just say like, I had a great time here."
   [85:30]

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of Fashion People provides an in-depth look into James Scully's influential career in the fashion industry, his commitment to ethical practices, and his innovative approach to retail. Listeners gain valuable insights into the evolution of fashion shows, the complexities of the modeling industry, and the future of boutique retail in a digital age.

---

Listen to the full episode on your preferred podcast platform every Tuesday and Friday to stay updated on the behind-the-scenes happenings of the fashion world.

Transcript

[Lauren Sherman]

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[James Scully]

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[James Scully]

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[Lauren Sherman]

They don't know what insurance is. Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show is James Scully, the famous and fellow famously outspoken casting director and retailer. We talk New York fashion in the 1980s, the future of stores, the evolution of the luxury industry, and a whole lot more. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of fashion people get a discount. Just go to Puck News fashion people to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. My interview with James is long, so we're going to be very quick here. It's been a fun week. Long with reason. I highly recommend you check it out. It's been a fun week in Los Angeles and online sheet. Be sure to take a look at Thursday's issue which includes some reporting on the state of lvmh, what's happening there with budgets and things, and how Bernard knows efforts to make nice with Donald Trump are benefiting him long and short term. I also touch on the situation with John Barvados in Under Armour where he is, I believe, Chief Design Officer. It's interesting little pocket of our world. I share a Conde Nast and Vanity Fair baby scoop, I'd say. And I also scratch the surface, I guess pun intended on the battle between lab grown and natural diamonds. Please check it out and enjoy this conversation with James, who really needs to write a book about the fashion industry and his experience navigating it over the past 40 odd years. If you find yourself in Hudson, please go to his store, Jamestown. He's a gem and extremely important to our industry. And send me feedback on this episode. I'd love to hear it. James Scully, welcome to Fashion People.

[James Scully]

Thank you for having me. Very excited to be here.

[Lauren Sherman]

So what did you have for breakfast this morning? It's so early.

[James Scully]

Yes, I didn't, I didn't eat. Oh, I guess I'll be eating breakfast after this. Now that I'm living country life and actually have chickens pretty much every morning it's going out into the yard and grabbing, grabbing some eggs and that and they're just up here. There are just so many amazing bakeries and bread places. So it'll probably be a loaf of bread from Mel's Bakery and some, some eggs from the backyard.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think I knew that Mel's moved up there. I went there a few times when it was still in the city. But it's. Or was it. Is it. It's so good. It's the same place, right?

[James Scully]

Yeah, same place. And they're on their third James Beard nomination which just brings even more people into town. But it's just the best bakery on the planet. And the amazing thing about them is you don't go there every day and are for the same thing. So on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday is a different sandwich. It is a different bread. So if you love this particular bread, you have to go on Sunday. If you. And then they do every day they have, like, a surprise pastry and. Or sandwich and. Or. And then it's just every week. So you. You just go back every week because they have something new.

[Lauren Sherman]

And which town upstate are you in?

[James Scully]

I'm in Gallatin, which is 20 minutes away from Hudson.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, nice. Okay. And how long have you been living up there for?

[James Scully]

So I think this year is officially. We're coming in on five. We started to rent up here during the pandemic. Funny. I mean, you know, talking about full circle moments back in the day. I used to work with J. Crew during the Frank and Jenna era, and I did their castings. And Frank had moved up here. He walked away and then moved up here and opened an inn, and he moved out of his house. And he had asked us if we knew anyone that would want to rent, and we were like, we'll do it. And so we came up here and sort of, you know, we've been up here on and off for years. And once we got up here, we were just, like, really kind of blown away by, you know, how many x New Yorkers and creatives were up here that were actually doing amazing things like opening restaurants and galleries. And it just felt like this really interesting place with a lot of creators and makers. And we thought, oh, this is a really nice place to be. And then during COVID my partner. I would. Had already retired in parentheses, but was going to figure out what was next. And my partner was working for Ralph Lauren, and he was let go during the pandemic. And he came downstairs one day and was like, what if we never went back? And so I didn't believe, you know, it was the beginning of the pandemic craze. And we thought, well, we'll put our apartment on the market and we'll come back to our senses. It will never sell. And it was gone in two hours. And we also had a house in Fire island, and it was gone the next day. So we were like, we live here. And that was. That was it. And then we just kind of adapted as a. As it went on. But.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, you opened a store, which we're going to talk a lot about today. But so. So many people did something similar. Do you ever miss the city? Do you ever think about, like, getting an apartment, just renting or anything like that?

[James Scully]

I don't. Which is really surprising for me to say because I was there for 40 years. I was probably hanging out there for four years before I moved there when I was in high school. And it was always my dream to live there. I never would have thought I would left. New York changed a lot. And it changed in a way that wasn't so interesting to me anymore. I mean, it just felt like. I joke with people now. If you want a pair of eyeglasses, some athletic wear, a salad and your bank, it's a great. It went from being an amazing city of opportunity to a city of convenience. And I didn't, I didn't run away from home to have Target and things like that follow me. It became very suburban and you know, I feel when I'm in Brooklyn, when I'm in the Upper west side, I still feel like these parts of New York exist. But just like I said, I, you know, I was, I moved to New York 1982. So like I was in Harry every night. I was like, you know, there was just. It was a real cultural mecca at that point and that doesn't exist.

[Lauren Sherman]

So I felt that a lot. Yeah. On my last trip and I go. I mean, I think I went eight times last year. We moved to LA during the pandemic and not, not totally different. I mean we, we sort of were like, maybe we'll try. We didn't ever have plans of coming back. And then I got pregnant literally the month we moved here and that we definitely were never coming back. But it's interesting. I go back and forth on it, but though this last trip I was there for over the Met doing events and things and stayed downtown and first of all, it felt very young, but it felt like Murray Hill young.

[James Scully]

Yeah. Yep. And I don't know if you, if you just read the COVID article of New York magazine about this new girl and I just for me, I think the. And that's like everyone in New York at this point. And even though they're young, it makes me sad that you now have a generation of people that are moving to one of the greatest cities in the world to recreate a life of a television show that was never even a realistic portrait of New York. And it just makes me really like this is all like, you're not moving here to be an artist, you're not moving here to be a banker, you're not moving here to be in fashion. You're moving here because for four years you're going to pretend you're Sarah Jessica.

[Lauren Sherman]

Parker, which really just also, they don't care about clothes. They're just wearing white T shirts and.

[James Scully]

Jeans, which is one of the reasons opened a store up here because when we moved up here, you know, uh, you, you know, so there, there's. It's a major restaurant scene up here. And one of the things is a lot of really great restaurateurs like Tavo Somer and all of these people, you know, they started opening restaurants up here and there. People live very quietly up here, but everyone dresses. And not necessarily. It's a very sporty place. But you know, I go to the farmer's market, I'm like, wow, there are really incredible looking guys here and their kids look cool and their wives are cool and like they're not buying their clothes in New York and they really. They're stylish and it's all a very. There's definitely a Hudson Valley look. And I just thought, wow, like even New Yorkers don't dress like this anymore. It's the same thing. When I go back, everyone is just carrying, you know, is wearing that dumb vest and a pair of Lululemon pants and a cup of coffee and. And like I said, they, you know, they just care about a designer starter bag and a cheap coat. And it's like, I miss, you know, that, you know, the real New York. You know, you still see them on the Upper east side. You still see, you know, you still have the Upper west side woman, but the young New Yorker, which is the person who really should be setting the. Is just kind of like a car, you know, it's. It's. Unfortunately, they've all been tick tocked, you know, and that's.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, they must be in Bushwick because that's the only thing that I. Or. Or further.

[James Scully]

Further now there.

[Lauren Sherman]

But yeah, I felt that I, I was on the Upper east side a bunch for different events and seeing friends and I have so many friends who have moved up there now or. Or Upper west side or. I mean that's. I. It's funny you said the thing about you didn't move live in the suburbs. I feel that way also. And is. That's a huge reason we moved to la, which, which is one big suburb. But I was like, well, but an.

[James Scully]

Authentic suburb, you know.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, it's funny, last night I went to this really fun Tory Burch event. They had a store opening which like no one in New York. I would never go to a store opening in New York. That's not completely true, but mostly true. If I went, I would go for five minutes. This was like the event of the night was everyone went to the store opening and Sierra D. There was a dj and Ciara got up and sang her song with the dj. And there were all these people and lots of famous people at the store opening. I was texting a friend. I was like, I can't believe we all just went for. And it was a big party. It was like the event of LA of the evening. And then they had a really fun dinner at Mr. Chow's. And that was fun. And I was walking back to my car because I don't do valet. I only. I don't like it. It's. I don't. I don't like waiting. So I just. I park in like a. I parked in a public. And there was this. There's this weird area of Rodeo Drive that's like. It's like Rodeo Drive is already like Disneyland, but it's fake cobblestone streets and it's up on. It's up near Wilshire. And I was walking up to my car and there was this weird like, seat. Love seat with flowers, fake flowers all over it. So you Instagram and in. In lights, it said Rodeo Drive. And I thought like, oh, why do I live here? And I got really depressed because I put it. But the reality is like, that's everywhere now. And. And you're right. And like, to find something real, you do need to seek. You really need to do a lot of work and end in New York. But what was New York like when you moved. First of all, where did you move from in 1982? And what was New York like when you moved there?

[James Scully]

I moved from New Jersey. So I was from town called South Amboy, which was a really working class town which allegedly held the Guinnesses Book of World Records for the smallest town in the world with the most bars. So that I worked out the second I was old enough. Yeah, super Irish Catholic. You know, everyone, you know, everyone worked in a factory. My father was a welder, my mother was a forklift operator. Like, everyone was just like, amazing. It was a tough, tough town. But literally when I was like 7 or 8 years old, my aunt took me to see a Broadway show, which was Pippin, which really goes to show you how. Date. How long ago? Yeah, it was like 73. Like that minute I was like, I'm moving here. Like, that was. I just knew. And when I was old enough, like when I was, you know, 14, 15, me and all my friends would just, you know, jump on the bus and like, start learning the streets. And like, everyone went to Canal Jeans and everyone went to. You know, there were just. There were just incredible Places to shop and to go and even, you know, then you. In my senior year of high school, I started hanging out with a friend who, you know, we would go to. They would do roller disco nights at the Roxy where Africa Mobatta would be DJing. That was during this whole like punk funk thing. So, you know, you'd have Parliament and the B52s and everybody roller skating. It was kind of an all ages thing. And I just thought the minute I can like get out, I'm going to come here. And I thought I was going to be an actor. And when I was in high school, one of the places I shopped at all the time is Fiorucci. And Joey Arias was probably one of the first people I met. And I remember telling him I'd applied to Carnegie Mellon and I was waiting and he's like, well, if you want to be an actor, like, why would you? And I really love fashion more. But it was just kind of a battle between what it was that I was going to do. And I was just afraid I wouldn't get into FIT or Parsons, which I did not. So then I was like, okay, I'm gonna be an actor. And he was like, well, if you're gonna be an actor, he's like, then you have to live in the city. Don't be a pussy and move to the Midwest, like get into the city.

[Lauren Sherman]

So moved to Pittsburgh. That's where I'm from. Let me tell you, you're not gonna get a. Not gonna make it in acting. We're going to Carnegie Mellon.

[James Scully]

Yeah. So I was waiting that for that in Oberlin. And I was just. All of a sudden my neighbor said, you know, there's this school and I was the worst student in high school. I graduated bottom of my class. I just was not, you know, like my brain was somewhere else. And the minute I started hanging out in New York, I just gave up on any of that. And my friend Kim was like, oh, well, I. I'm going to this college called Laboratories in Merchandising. And every year they do an interview and they give one student a full scholarship just based on an interview. They don't care about your grades, they don't care about anything. She's like, about two or three hundred people apply for this, but like, why don't you try? So I went and thought, okay, regardless, I'm moving to the city with no college, with no job. And so I did the interview. And then about two weeks later, like they call me, they're like, you, you got in so you're. So. I was like, oh, fantastic. So I. Now I have a school to go to. And I. I was able to move to New York because I was saving money for a Renault car that was. Could be my first car, which was $3,000, and I had all the money saved to buy a car. So I was just like, I failed my driver's test. And I'm like, I'm coming. Like, that's it. I just moved.

[Lauren Sherman]

Like, what job were you doing in high school that you saved all that money?

[James Scully]

I was. Believe it or not, I was working at Benetton in Woodbridge center, which was a mall near my house. And. And I, you know, all through high school I was working for local grocery stores. So I just saved all my money because there was no, you know, I lived at home. You know, there was. I had no expenses. And other than just going to the city and buying clothes, that was kind of. That was my thing. So when. Yeah, and then, like I said, my senior year in high school with my friend Ray area opened. And that was just like, you know, and those big line. I don't know how in hundreds of people standing outside trying to get in, they pointed at us and was like, come on in. And I was. Then I was really like, I don't care. Like, I'm just taking my money, getting an apartment and I'll figure it out. But I got into lim and then I guess to again. In this whole first full circleness of my career, the things that always mattered most to me were stores, fashion shows and magazines. And at some point I wanted to work at one or all of those things, and I managed to do them all. And now they've kind of. I've been able to use all of that to kind of move forward in this next. This next phase of my life. But my first day and I was really unsophisticated. I was a kid from Jersey, you know, the world wasn't international. You know, I just. My neighbor had handed me a stack of like 40 years worth of Vogues, and I was like, oh my God. And, you know, there's the New York Times. I didn't know there was a such thing as a Paris Vogue or an Italian Vogue or, you know, anything like that. And I didn't really know what a fat. I saw pictures of fashion shows, so I thought, you know, this would be interesting for me. And the first day of class, I got into school and there was a announcement on the bulletin board. There was just a piece of paper, like, fashion show at Bergdorf Goodman show up at 10 o' clock, you know, and we'll didn't say what it was or anything. So I thought, wow, I can't believe. Like, I just got into the school and I'm gonna cut class, but I'm gonna cut class. And I went to Bergdorf Goodman. I went upstairs, and it was Karl Lagerfeld's first collection for Chanel. So they bought the whole couture collection over to Bergdorf Goodman. And I literally walked backstage and, you know, there was Bonnie Berman and Inez and all these thing people that I saw. I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe. Like, this is incredible. And so I. They did two shows. I addressed the shows, and I literally was like, who? Like, who's in charge here? Because I want to do more of these things. And someone said, oh, it's. At the time, it was a company called Christina Godfrey and Loving, which was Donna Christina. And I can't remember. I'll remember her partner's name. But I just walked up to them and I was like, you know, I just went to school and like, can I freelance for you guys? I'll do anything. And they're like, yeah. In two weeks later, we're having. Jean Paul Gaultier is coming and doing a show on in the Cirque Duvet. He's bringing the whole Cirque Duvet show, which for me was just to see pictures of. That was for me, one of the most seminal shows. That was the show for me that, like, he's the greatest designer, like, there it was two weeks later, backstage with Gauthier. And then they did a Fendi show. And then the Luqu show was like, one year later, you know, and they produced a lot of shows in New York. So they did Calvin, they did. Gosh, I'm trying to think of all the shows that they worked on. They did Calvin, they did Perry Ellis. They did. At the time, Adrian Vitadini was a big thing. Matsuda was a big thing. So I just managed to get production work, whether I was writing dressing cards or dressing people. And that was kind of. I was like, all right, this is. This is what I want to do.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay, so a couple of questions. One is, when you said Inez, did you mean Ines de le versa hunch?

[James Scully]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

So she was. She was Karl Lagerfeld's, like, collaborator museum. She's amazing. But you're saying that a lot of these designers themselves would come. Was it common for the designers from Europe, like Gautier, who. Whomever to come to New York to do sort of second shows at that time because it wasn't as easy to distribute the imagery and all that stuff. Was that a common thing?

[James Scully]

Well, it all kind of coincided with Bergdorf Goodman, which at that time was considered a very stodgy store. And they had just kind of revamped it. And literally the big new fashion news was down is that Bergdorf's finally got escalators, which they had never had. And so Bergdorf really were like. You wouldn't go with, you know, it was an old woman store as well, you know, and it was Lord and Taylor and B. Altman and these were all great old dames, but they weren't, you know, at the time, Sax was the department store in New York. I mean, it was really where. Wherever that was the epicenter at that moment because there were only like four of them in America, and every American designer had a boutique in there. And so Bergdorf's was now coming in to their own. And so they were bringing these shows over to tell people, like, we are not your grandmother's bird doors anymore. And that was. That was. And then they just really, like, that was the beginning of the next renaissance for Bergdorfs. But, yeah, that was really. That was quite a time. And.

[Lauren Sherman]

Wow, that's so fun. And what was Fashion Week like here in the 80s?

[James Scully]

Fashion Week in the 80s was. It was cool because that's, you know, the other things. Like, again, I pulled out one of my old. I used to write all my calendars by hand and I found these little books. And I was looking at all my. I wish it's now packed up somewhere. But looking at all the show schedules, like, New York was really packed, like. And in the 80s, especially, like, 82, 83, that was really kind of the zenith of Calvin and Ralph and Donna Karen was still at. She was still at Anne Klein. So these, you know, these were sort of the big anchors of the week. And you had Bill Blass and Oscar de la Renta and Carolina. You know, there was like, that whole. That whole world, which doesn't exist anymore, of the Park Avenue woman and the. You know, so it was super diverse. But a lot of the people that God Green Loving took on, they took on a lot of younger people at the time. So I ended up, like, working with, like, Angel Estrada and David Cameron and, you know, like, these people who, like, were really, like, great for their moment and. But, you know, like every young designer, they kind of had their time. But no, it was really. And it was all over the place, like, you know, like, one day I would be backstage with Calvin, and then the next day was Matsuda. And then, you know, there were just all these sort of like, this is the show of the week to be in in New York. But it was really buzzy and there was a lot, like I said, there really was a lot of attention on young, young New Yorkers at the time. Andre Walker. Like, there were just all of these people that were, you know, they're still around, but they were really like the young guns.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. What was store wise? Because I was just thinking about Sharavari because of this, potentially this Barney's television show. Storewise, what were the cool, like designer stores? Was it Barney's and did you go to Charavari or, or were you like, what were. Where were people who were buying labels, the Japanese brands in Armani shopping at that time?

[James Scully]

At that time? Well, the same thing when I was, when I was in high school and I was handed this stack of Vogues as I was looking through a bunch of ads. I had seen this ad for this store called Charivari, which they were the first to carry Yoji Yamamoto in America and a lot of the, a lot of the Japanese. So I'd also set my sights when I got to New York. Like, I'm going to get a job there. And. But at. So at that time, the stores, like I said, as far as the department stores, Saks was really the chicest store at the moment. But then as far as boutiques, you had Bendals, you had Charivari, Barney's downtown, because it didn't exist. Like Barney's had the, the sneakest part of Barney's was the Barney's penthouse, which is also where the best men's and women's collections. And same thing when they started carrying the Japanese, you went to the penthouse to buy, you know, and like I said, they had, you know, Charivari was all edged. Barney's was really like Chloe and Azzedine and, and the Japanese. And then you had Diane B. Which also. And she was also. No, Diane B. Was. She was on West Broadway, which in the 80s, West Broadway was like the epicenter of cool. Like that is where you'd party all week, you go out all night, and then Sunday you would all have lunch at Il Tre Merrily and then you would shop at Diamb. And then if you was around the corner. So those were like the. And then there was, there was Carol Rolo on the Upper east side. She was the one person who had like that level of designer Merchandise. And people. And people shopped, like, because especially at area, people shopped to buy outfits to go out. So the whole club world was basically based on what you were buying. But, you know, designer clothes weren't expensive then. They were. Yeah, you know, there were money, but you. You know, it wasn't out of the realm to go to Bloomingdale's and put a Gautier outfit on your credit card and then return it on Monday just so you could get entry, man.

[Lauren Sherman]

So fun.

[James Scully]

Yeah. And then. Yeah. So I applied for a job at Charlie like, seven or eight times and didn't get it. And then they were opening a new sports store on the Upper west side. I was like, well, I'll just lower my standards and stop going for 57 and workshop and I'll try the sports store. And I got hired, and so I was super excited. And I got bored of selling, like, really quick. I was there from 85 to 94. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I asked the window display director. I was like, you know, I really want to do windows. Could I work with you? And he's like, sure. So they took me off the sales floor. I was working with him. So while we did the windows in all the six stores, he also merchandised the floors. So now one night he just said to me, he's like, I can't do the floor. Would you go in and redo the floor while I do the windows? And then one day, Barbara, who was there, was John, Barbara, and Salma. And Barbara was clearly the daughter and the one that really sort of put them on the map because she was the one that discovered Yoji and Irie and all the. You know, she had all the British. And she walked in one day and saw the store, and she's like, who did this? And first I thought it was either going to be good or bad. And I was like, I did. And she's like, wow. She's like, so can you go to 72 and do the flooring? Can you go to sports store? And I was like, sure, I'll do them all. And so they had me re. And I was like, 20. I think I was like, 19 or 20. And so she has merchandising stores. And probably, like, within that year, she was like, I think I want to take it to Europe, make you my assistant. So what do you think of that? And I was just like, whoa. You know, and that. That I. Now I joke because I say my buying career basically started with Body Map and ended with the Belgians, because it was like that was just this. You know, it's just amazing how many things happened in that period that I was able to see the. And my first. Literally, my first trip to Paris was the year that it was Vivienne Westwood's big comeback year. And that's when she did the mini cranny, which just everyone had sort of like, gone off her. And this was like her rebirth in Paris. And that was also the season of Romeo Gigli's first show in Paris. And, you know, then Azzedine, you know, like, that was all her market was all of that. It was Gauthier, Azzedine Mugler, Irie, Yoji Conde, Garcon Issei. Like, it was just. I. You know, I just felt like I was dropped into, like, a complete. And then London. That was like the era of Body Map and Marx's theory and Liza Bruce, and I mean, just. Just literally that, like, all the things that I couldn't. I would read about these things and couldn't believe now, wow. I'm here in their showrooms and like, literally. Yeah. And to watch the. The 80s, you know, when. Because her mother did Italy, so Italy was Jenny Biblos and then Montana. You know, that was all the, you know, the really big era of that. And it was really interesting how all of those, you know, in every one of their stores, they had six stores. Each store had a different image, so it wasn't the same thing in every store. Interesting. So, you know, 72 was the Italians, and that was Armani and Kenzo and, you know, Bob Barbara had the workshop, which was Yoji, Issei, Irie, all the British, you know, and then 57 was kind of the best of all. You know, they had a lady store, which was also much more, you know. You know, we carried Zelda dresses and, like, you know, that was really more like, for the Upper west side woman, floppy hats with flowers on. You know, they really knew who each person in each of these. These stores was. And that was the reason they were so fascinating, because every store was a completely different world. And it was just fun to see all of these things at one time. But the most interesting thing was when the Gulf War happened and everybody sort of, like, started cocooning and staying in and getting depressed. And it was really ostentatious to walk into a room and have your clothes speak for you. And that was really the beginning of the Belgians. And I remember, like, Helmut was already coming, so there was all that buzz around Helmut. And then literally in one season, Anne Andries sort of really came, and then Martin Margiela. And he actually called Barbara personally because he wanted Charvar to be the first store in America to carry him. The amazing thing about that was like, literally one season we were selling tons of Montana and color and coats and all, you know, and then one season later, we couldn't give it away because the Belgians just so radically changed the way people thought about clothes. And like with Anne, everything was black, everything was cut on the bias. So literally.

[Lauren Sherman]

And Jamila Meester.

[James Scully]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[James Scully]

A woman who Wore A size 2 and a woman who wore a size 12 could wear the same dress and the same jacket. So. And, you know, and women just came in and completely re wardrobed themselves with that and with Dries and what. And then Margiela just really like the. Just the fact that what people take for granted now as that sort of deconstructivism, it just blew people away. And it was interesting because the. The ones that really survived that crossover were still. That was also like the zenith of Zhili. So that was just the artisanal part of that. And Gauthier, that was really, you know, for like six seasons in a row. There was the Hasidic collection and the Icelandic collection, you know, and the India collection. Like him, he just was like, it was just mind blowing how. And then as any, just a complete, complete, like, steady through that because that was the most fun thing to buy and sell because just the transformative power of those clothes to a woman. And I remember just thinking what a genius he was because when he showed the Tati collection, they came out and were like. Which people also don't realize, because that was like the early 90s and it was really when plastic surgery was coming into its own. So he actually came out and he said they would. They said, how many of your customers would you think have natural breasts and how many have been augmented? And we're like, well, we don't know. So I don't. You know, I mean, you. At that point, you. You wouldn't really ask someone if they had a boob job. You could sort of tell or not tell, but he's like, well, Azani has now developed two bra sizes. So here's the bra size for someone who has had a breast job and here's the bra size. So. Because he really hated the whole, like the vulgarness, he's like, this will keep them from looking vulgar and spilling it. And I just said, wow, like, I can't believe, like, this is how people think and create. So it's. Yeah. So for me now, when I See all of these redos of the houses. It's just too difficult for me. You know, I just have such a different context to it. It's just hard for me to say that a lot of these things should exist. They should just.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes, yeah, I, I, I understand. And, and, and everyone should follow James on Instagram. He does great commentary during the shows and beyond. You have a really important point of view that makes people think differently about this stuff.

[James Scully]

Each spring, 23 Pulitzer Prizes are awarded for distinguished journalism, books, drama and music. It was disbelief and pride and life changing. My name is Nicole Carroll and I'm a member of the Pulitzer board and host of Pulitzer on the Road, the official podcast of the Pulitzer Prizes. In each episode, winners reveal how much labor and risk, heart and imagination, go into creating their prize winning work. We'll talk with novelists and reporters. We found stuff that no one had heard before or found out. It was exciting. Critics and playwrights. I do not want to live in.

[Lauren Sherman]

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[James Scully]

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[Lauren Sherman]

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[James Scully]

The second season of Pulitzer on the Road premiered March 10. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Lauren Sherman]

So how did you get. And I want to talk more about what's happening, happening there soon, but I want to hear about how you became a casting director. How did you move from being a buyer? Because when did Sharavari close? Like in the mid-90s or.

[James Scully]

Yeah, they closed about. I left. So I left in 94. And they probably closed like three years somewhere, like two or three years after. And at the time, even though it was the best job in the world, Barbara was an incredibly tough person. And I just felt like I had run my course there. And I started to miss the old fashioned show world because I had done so much of that before and that was kind of what got me into the world. And I just thought, oh, I really miss working on shows. And our PR company was a company called Kevin Crier and Associates, and he was one of the big show producers in New York. And one day we were just chatting and he's like, why don't you come work for me? And so I was like. And I was like, okay. So having never produced a show or cast a show or do anything, I went to work for him. And the first person he handed me was Todd Oldham, so. Oh, amazing. Same thing. During the whole. And that was a cool era of New York too. Because that, you know, at that time, even though Kelvin and Donna and Rhett, like they all really existed, really the shows in that time were Todd, Anna, Isaac and Giorgio San Angelo. Like, that was really. Those shows were like supermodel central. They were one things the girls would absolutely do. Because it was just. It was always a part, you know, they were just the most fun shows to work on. And back then, because most people, this was still before, you know, LVMH and carrying came, you know, still when things were relatively small and everyone showed two collections a year back then people weren't in. People weren't really in house. So basically when I was working on a show, then you basically did it all. So you cast it, you did the locations, you did the product. You know, you did the full production. And casting was a small part of it. Because at that point the modeling industry was very small. There were 10 agencies. You know, that was the era of. Especially then. That was the beginning of the supermodels. But it was still. It was very small industry. So like every agency probably had 25 or 30 girls. So you didn't really have to do go sees then. Cause it wasn't about new, it was about consistency. And there were less shows. So basically if you were those girls, you were probably doing 15 shows in New York or 20 shows in New York. And you would. There were big breaks. Cause that's the other thing is you would go. The buying season was so long. So everyone would start in Milan and you do like 10 days of Milan, you get four days off. Then you would go to London and you would do another week there and then like two weeks in Paris with giant breaks in between. Then there'd be like two weeks and then you. New York was the end. So it was actually a much more. It was less frantic. So you had breaks in between. You had time. You know, you weren't going to 10 shows in five locations. You were going to like three or four a day. So you. Everything was really spread out and much easier. So we could do a lot of shows. And basically, like I said, I worked for Kevin for several years. But our big break at Kevin Cryer was one day the phone rang. We were also the first company to start working in Europe because American companies did not work in Europe. And we went to Milan and we were doing a few small menswear things there. And he worked A lot for Armani. And then Krezia hired. Which was, like, at the time, it was about. They wanted to remake themselves, and they wanted to have a new image. And so we brought on Andre Leon Talley, who was styling the show. And all of a sudden, like, Krizia, like, kind of. I wouldn't say became a thing, but it went from being the same thing, your grandmother's creatia, to something that people would shoot and people would buy and they got their Italian Vogue cover. So they were super happy. And then the phone rang, and it was. It was Tom Ford. And I knew him because Kathy Hardwick was one of the lines that we bought for our women's store. And he was working at Kathy Hardwick. And everyone was like, oh, this is Tom Ford. He's the boyfriend of Richard Buckley, who at the time was a huge journalist. So he was like the new kid on the block. But he called and he said, I just moved to Milan. I'm about to start a Gucci. We've done one show, which is just not what I'm about. And he just said, would you guys be willing to come over and get this started? And that was, for me, that, you know, for all of us, that really, on top of Kevin was already on the map, but this put him on the map and put us all on the map. And, yeah, literally, that show, the. The very first show, which I remember, we did the men's show in Florence, and it was at that point I had a lot of. We did a lot of menswear shows and a lot of shows in New York. So it was also the first time in American was coming to deal with the agencies, and they're all like, yeah, we don't know who you are. We don't care who you are. Like, nobody's doing this. And I remember we did the show in Florence, and I got off the train. I was waiting for the train because all the Italian agencies said they put the boys on a train. I got to the train, nobody's there. And I was like, this is bad. So then I just called all their American agents, and I was like, look, get them on the train. All the boys wound up on the train, and every Milanese agency was like, whoa. I'm like. I was like, yeah, don't. Don't mess. I was like, these boys know me. They know us. This is going to be a great thing. And, like, don't, you know, don't throw an opportunity out the window. But these boys all did it as a favor to me. So they all got on train, they all came. The show was a huge hit. And then the next season was the. Was. Was the Velvet. Yeah, the Velvet. The. The famous. The first famous show. And the same thing I remember, like, every girl. Christy said no, Linda said no. Naomi said no. Kristen McManmy canceled the night before the show. Like, they were all just, like, didn't want to do it. And at that point, this was just the beginning of Amber, Shalom and Kate. Like, so I wouldn't say they didn't have the power to say no, but they were like, it's a show, you know. But it was funny. During the fittings, everyone, all the girls were talking like, oh, my God, these clothes are amazing. They're amazing. You really. This is going to be something. And I don't think anyone really knew. And I have to say, one of my favorite places to be. Being in the audience is fun, but being in the backstage is really incredible because when a moment happens, you really, you feel it coming from the audience and you just, you feel that energy backstage and you're just like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And, you know, this was also, again, the peak after the Gulf War. Minimalism was in. Everyone was depressed. Everyone. The most important designer in the world at that point was Jill Sander. And she had just set a level of like, this is simplicity. This is the show. Like, and everyone sort of followed suit. So I remember the. When literally the Amber walked out, the music started and people just started applauding. And then Shalom came out and they started applauding and, like, people were just losing their mind. And we were just. Nobody knew that was going to happen and we were just all like, wow, like, and then, you know, standing ovation and, you know, it was just incredible. And like, after that, like, you couldn't. And he is funny. He really established at that moment, like, you know, there weren't enough clothes, you know, shows at that point also, that's something he changed. Shows at that point were 150, 200, 300 outfits long. So shows were like 45 minutes to an hour long. There weren't enough clothes to make the show. So he's there. There were probably like eight, 18 women's outfits. And he's like, we're going to bring the men in. We will do a men's and women's show and we will spotlight them because that will take the time to spill up the, you know, and it ended up being like a 30 minute show. But I think people were also blown away with, like, wow, here is A very quick statement and a very. It also changed the way people, you know, people started cutting down outfits and cutting down, you know, because he was just so laser sharp about how, you know, how that was going to be. And that really, like I said, that established his style. It established a lot of things that went on, you know, to change in the industry. And it was also the first time someone really worked, you know, with a collaborator, because he worked a lot with Karine. And there was just, you know, Paris Vogue was about to happen. So all the girls knew, like, oh, you know, there's just something going on here. And that was just a super, like, magic moment. And, yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Karine Roitveld, for the uninitiated, add the names. And when you were talking earlier about all the American designers, Isaac Mansurahi and Anna Sui were the. Were big in. In New York. But so when you were casting at this point, so a show like that first. First women's Gucci show, Tom Ford, and you're. You obviously want big models, important models, but, like, were you pairing models to designer aesthetic? Or was it more or. Or vibe? Or was it more about getting. If it's a big brand, you want the most famous model? Like, how did you start thinking strategically about how to cast?

[James Scully]

Well, at the time, a lot of it was, you know, the pool of girls was a pool of girls. So it was like, it was about getting the best girls that were in that time. And this, again, this was just the beginning of the switchover of, like, you know, the supermodels were in their zenith, but they were already all kind of moving on. And then there was the waif, which was Amber Shalom, Carolyn Murphy, Kirsty. He, you know, this was just the next. This was the next round. But Tom is actually the one that changed my eye that sort of made it about aesthetic. The one thing that I missed about that time, him and everyone then people were super loyal. You know, models careers especially, you know, your careers were like 10, 15, 20 years, and your Runway careers were very long. So, like, people. And, you know, again, those shows were used to sell clothes. And I can't tell you how many times, like, you know, someone would say, oh, you know, because Naomi wore that dress in the Show, I sold 300 of those dresses. You know, like, models sold clothes and, you know, the performance sold the clothes. And he would come in. Well, and this is the difference about that era of model. He would come in and say, okay, this show is about Romy Schneider. So I wouldn't go looking for girls. We would just turn those girls into that character. And that's what people don't realize that, you know, like, that's why Linda was so great. That's why Christy was. You know, Linda could be in Helmut Lang and be completely stripped down, and then she could be in Valentino with tons of hair and makeup. But you never said, oh, that's Linda. You know, it was just like, this is Linda in the world of Valentino. This is Limbit in the world of Tom Ford. You know, that was a thing that. I'm sad for models. They don't get to be the characters, you know, now it's just like, okay, this show is about twiggy. Find me 55 girls that look like Twiggy. You know, not like character and personality didn't matter. And back then, it was all about character and personality. So Tom's. Tom's missive was like, I don't care where they come from or what they do. They just have to look rich like that is, you know, or the boys have to look like they were kept. Like, that was always his, you know, so that was. He always came in with the theme every season. You know, like, the Las Vegas show was like, I can't remember. He's like, what a Cher and somebody had a baby. And I was like, oh, okay, that's Kirsty Hymn. You know, it was just. It was really. It was much more fun. And again, you know, something like, you know, Todd Oldham, where it was just completely performance that was just about getting the girls who could really, really walk and really model and really, you know, go to town and act. So, you know, this. And like I said, this kind of party went on for years. It was just. And the nice thing is, still there weren't a lot. A lot of then. So you were kind of like this traveling circus that, you know, went from New York to Milan to Paris, and it was always the same, you know, it was just kind of this nice, familiar group of what I thought felt like a safe place for a lot of people. And the thing that really changed the business drastically was when Vogue started doing celebrity covers. Because to be a model in that era, basically, you had to walk in and be beautiful enough to get a Vogue cover. Like, because that was it. If you weren't getting that cover, then you were going to be commercial, you were going to be something else. But to get that cover was. You had. So the standard of beauty was just really, really, really high. And then when celebrities started to take the covers and the advertising, a lot of those Girls were like, I'm out. And it just became, you know, this again, it became about then stylists became very powerful and it wasn't really about the designer's vision anymore because they had eight collections a year and they really needed to farm out some of these jobs to, you know, again you'd have a stylist come in and say, well, this season is about Keepie Dolls and next season it's about Marilyn Monroe. Like so it was never like, you know, in that day you'd be like, well, Linda can be all those people, Christy can be all those people. Naomi. Now it's just like, no, I need a girl that looks just like that. And Tom Ford had left the Gucci group, which at the time it was really about the Gucci and the Prada girl. Like, those are the girl, you know, Getting a Gucci show would completely launch your career. Like that was just getting a Prada show would completely launch your career. And now it wasn't, it wasn't about that anymore. It was just about a body that fit a theme. So though it was great for magazine sales, it was really, really, really detrimental to the industry. Want to pull off the season's freshest trends? You just need the right shoes. That's where designer shoe warehouses comes in. Loving wide leg jeans. Pair them with sleek low profile sneakers.

[Lauren Sherman]

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[James Scully]

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[James Scully]

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[Lauren Sherman]

Did you know Long Nguyen?

[James Scully]

Yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. Yeah, so I mean he was writing that book about before he passed away. About the 90s. And he was so obsessed with that being sort of the peak of the golden age of fashion. And it is in so many ways, like, before the formation of the conglomerates, before it really did become this commodified business 20 years later. And now we're sort of reckoning with. With what happened. But it did. It was like a confluence of all these things. The magazines were at their peak, creativity was at its peak, and there was also a commercial interest, so it could. It could thrive. It must have been amazing to be at the center of it and help, like, be a big part of making those images and making it all sort of come to life by casting.

[James Scully]

Yeah, it was re. It was incredible. Like, I did. You know, I didn't think at the time, you know, I didn't think. You know, I did, but I didn't think at the time, like, well, I never thought it would end. So that was, you know, that, I guess, was then Act 2 for me after that all ended. But no, yeah. No, it's just on a level of creativity and a level of money, you know, people would just, you know, you paid to get the image right, you paid to get the show right, you paid to get the fitting right, you paid to get the girl and the guy you wanted there. You know, and like, I said that again, that, you know, there was the Vogue thing, but the other thing that, like, really was the upstart of that era was Liz Tilbaras. Harper's Bazaar. I mean, that just entered an entire new era. You got Craig McDean. You had David Sims, you had Inez and Benood. You had, you know, you had even the greats like Peter. You know, a lot of people defected to work for her. You also had, you know, the real beginning of the zenith of Steven Maisel at Italian Vote. Like, there were just. There were. I mean, just the amount of photographers and, you know, and you still had. A lot of the greats were still. Were still around then. You know, you still had Abaddon, you still had Scubula. They were all alive. And, like, you know, all these models really got the opportunity to work with every single one of those people. And, you know, there was just so much advertising. Like, you know, there were lookbooks. Like, even lookbooks were shot by Mario Sorrenti and Steven Meisel. You know, you just go back and it's funny because you see all these book dealers selling all these old lookbooks, and you're like, wow, I forgot about, like, you know. No, it was just. It was. It was Incredible. And it was like I said, it all felt so collaborative. I mean, like I said, we. I really always likened our jobs to being a traveling circus. And like, you know, then you had show season and then you had print season, and then, you know, there were just. It never ended. You just had these nice kind of blocks in between, and then you all be back together in the fall. It was really. Yeah. And then, you know, the 911 changed that because everyone pulled back their budgets. And even though a lot of people had these budgets, they were just like, well, now I can. I can say we have no budget and still get that same talent. And that. That was kind of also the beginning of like, it got a little like people weren't getting what they were worth and especially the models. And they're like, yeah, I'm not, not going to do this anymore for, you know, I've made my money, so I'm done.

[Lauren Sherman]

For those, like, what were the 2000s and the 2010s, like, for you and. And observing because you. Because when did you officially retire from. From casting or unofficially?

[James Scully]

I retired, like, I think now it's like seven years ago. Even though it feels like I keep everything feels like five years to me. So much happened in, you know, I think we kind of freeze out a couple years because of COVID So we just kind of lived in isolation, you know, in suspended animation. But yeah, so. So, you know, the whole glory day, you know, that was all happening. And then I would say the beginning, the beginning of the end a little bit was 9 11, because that is really when people started to pull back on their budgets. But that was also, again, you know, magazines started relying on celebrities for advertising for. And at the time, celebrities used to. Kate Moss still got more than an actress did to do something. So celebrities at the time were a much less expensive and a far more reaching way to reach people. But what that caused, especially on the show circuit, and this was also the rise of the stylist. So you kind of got these stylists and casting directors that are, you know, you have one stylist working for five brands, you had another stylist working for five brands. And what I loved about the business, when I came into it, it was super collaborative. You know, I would get on the phone, I'd be like, oh, my God, I just met a girl like. And at the time, in the very beginning, that late 80s, early 90s when we were doing production and casting, it was me, John Pfeiffer, Michelle Lee, Nian Fisher, you know, and then Alex Patak, was the new kid in town. So we were all these little, you know, we all worked together. Like I could literally call John and say like, I just met this girl, get her on a plane. You know, when this next era happened, one stylist would, you know, and this is where the pretend I don't have a budget came in. Well, I, with a lot of power. I have seven shows. You're going to fly yourself for free now to do my work. And if you don't, I'll just blackball you. That then stylist B would be like, well, if you work with them, you're not working with me. And this, it really started this kind of level of abuse that was kind of unreal to witness. And, and for me, this was such. I escaped my world to come into this world and be in this, this place with all of these creative people. And then all of a sudden like all the bullies of my past wound up in my backyard. And then the, all the other thing that really changed was Russia and Brazil opened and in, you know, now that models were, started becoming dispensable. You know, in the old days there were 50 magazines. So if you walked into an agency, you started at 17 and then glamour and then Mademoiselle and you worked your way to Vogue and then, you know, that was the trajectory. So, you know, a model had a lot of practice before she was ever put before Ridge Ravadon, you know, so that was all burning out because again, actresses were now getting these covers. They were getting, you know, so there was no, you know, and then the beauty standards started to change and then Brazil and Russia opened and that really, you know, so like I said, a girl would start even if she started at 14. Back in the day you could work in the summers, you had to go back to school. Most agencies wouldn't put you out for serious work until you were 18. So by the time, you know, even the Lindas and the, you know, there were some exceptions, but those women had worked a lot. They cut their teeth before their break happened. Then it just turned into these girls aren't getting campaigns. So we just need a constant person to feel like said, oh, this week is about Pollyanna and next week is about, you know, Anna Nicole Smith. You know, so we're just going to find bodies and not necessarily models. And it opened the world to a lot of teenagers coming into the business. And Prada kind of really came up with this sort of Lolita esque aesthetic, especially after like Christy. And when they were gone, it just became These really, really young Russian and Brazilian girls who. Who were a not equipped. You know, my whole thing was you should never ask a child to do an adult's job. And Even as an 18 year old, being thrown into that world is. It's a lot and it really can do a lot to your self esteem in your head. And what happened was all of these young girls would come to the business. Every stylist would be like, oh my God, I have to have this kid. I have to have this kid. I saw her in Prada. And the other crazy thing was that was when Style.com started. So before that you used to be able to do your own thing. If you're working for a designer, you had your own cast, you had the girls they liked. But then all of a sudden everyone go on style.com and be like, I saw her in Prada and I have to have her. I'm like, yeah, but she doesn't look like that in real life. And at Prada you don't have to walk. And she's 14 and gangly. And Pat and Guido are doing an amazing job transforming her into someone she's not. So when you see her in real life, you're going to be pretty shocked. And in the end, it just started, this whole era of teenage girls who were too young to be in this in the first place. And the aesthetic just became like, no breasts, no hips, no personality. But the problem is when these girls wanted to stay in the business and they started to go through puberty, they were told by every editor they were fat. So you can't really tell a 14 year old who's getting breasts for the first time that she stats. So you have all these teenage girls that are now like taking Adderall and Red Bull not to. It started a huge epidemic of that, of just. And then. Because then you're not hungry and you're full of energy and you know, so they'd be in a Prada ad one season and then the next season everyone was like, I want nothing to do with you. And for me that was. I was so used to relationships. It was very hard to explain to a child why everyone likes you this season and next season. They don't want you because you made someone angry or you didn't do their free job. And so that for me was. I really felt like I had to do something about it. And in general I was not. In rare occasions, but in general I was not. I would just tell the agencies, don't send me anyone under 18 unless they're chaperoned, you know, occasionally there always was going to be a girl. You know, I wouldn't say I was a hundred percent angelic on this, but I also knew how to take care of people and to make sure that when they came to our shows that they were taken care of, that their fittings were fast, that we didn't leave them overnight. But it just, the level of abuse really just spiraled out of control. And I think people just didn't even, you know, they started seeing models not even as people, but just as things. And I would always say to these stylists, like you have a kid like doesn't, you know, don't you realize you're, you know, like you're really, you know, one thing you say that you think is, you know, if someone's brushing it off, you know, you tell a 14 year old girl she's fat, like that could ruin her life because she just spirals into this. How do I, you know, how do I not grow breasts? How do I not get taller? How do I, you know.

[Lauren Sherman]

Totally.

[James Scully]

And there was just thousands of girls out there now in this brain set. And so I started, I started to speak out about it and things just sort of got worse. But the great thing was business. Sebastian came out and they were going to do their first, their first voices. The voices? Yes, they did the first one. So I called Imran and I was just like, there's a huge problem in the business.

[Lauren Sherman]

You okay?

[James Scully]

I was like, can you write something about it? And he's like, why don't you come and speak? So I thought, I thought, sure, sure, get me on a, you know, so I, I literally there were like eight people who were incredibly powerful and even more but really eight people who I just thought were really the, the, the core of this abuse. And it was just. And again, because they were pitted against each other and then just using these girls as pawns, I basically went and told eight of these stories about each a particular person. And I just said, I'm not going to say your names, but we're going into Fashion Week and if you ignore this, I'm going to attach every one of your names to the stories. And so I got to Paris and everyone was like, holy. Like everyone is freaking out. And I'm like, well, I'm not, I'm not kidding. So you know, I just like people have to put a mirror to themselves and see they're really ruining, ruining so many lives of teenage girls and boys that, you know, they're, half these kids are coming to support a family, have these kids don't even want to be models. Like, they were in a cornfield last week, and now you're asking them, you know, to be a vamp of Versace. You can't, like, you know, with no practice, you know, every other girl, like, was able to build themselves up to that point in their lives. And so, yeah, so then the famous Balenciaga incident happened, where my Dan rami had locked 300 girls in a room and turned off the lights and left them there for, like, six hours. And I was at a casting, and one of the girls came in and burst out crying and told me what happened. And I was like, all right, I've had it. So, you know, this was the beginning of Instagram. So I went on Instagram and made a post, and it went viral in, like, two hours. And I didn't realize it because the. The Internet@cell McCartney was so bad that I used to have to go down the street to send business texts. And then the PR director of the company is like, you're. You need to go to Pino's office. And I thought, why? I was like, what did I do? He's like, your post went viral. He's like, it's a disaster. Like, he's what disaster for that? Not for me. But so I went and. I mean, literally, like, I just had thousands of messages on my email, my phone, my. Like, just. People were trying to get a hold of me all over the place. And so I went to his office, and he just. He said, today, you're the most powerful person in this industry. What do you want? And I had wanted before to get someone from carrying an LVMH in a room and come up with something to sort of stop the flow of these girls. And I just said, look, you know, you're employing all these people who are abusing these girls. Like, you just. The lawsuits are incredible. Like, one girl is going to wake up one morning, and they're all going to take you down. Like, once one does, they're all going to come and say, you know, I was like, you really. You can't do this. So. And then I didn't realize, like, literally on my Instagram, like, Antoine Arnaud reached out to me, and I thought it was. I thought he was a joke. And he's like, no, get a hold of me. So I just. I literally said, I would love for you and Antoine to get in a room, and let's see what we can do to protect these girls. And he agreed. LVMH is like, no, no, no. And then I just said there was something happening at LVMH that day that was super abusive. And someone had sent me pictures and I just said to him, I was like, if we can't sit down on the table, this is going out today and it's going to be really, really bad. And so then over the course of a year, we developed the LVMH carrying charter and then the Vogue charter, which is the continent, you know. And basically what it mostly did was it did not allow anyone under 18 to go on a casting or work on a show or an advertising unless they were chaperoned. And it was. But it basically stopped the flow of every, like thousands of kids coming through Europe that were never going to work or were going to have one job and be sent home and be in debt to an agency. And that once that happened, I was like, I'm done here. Like, I feel like I'm aging out and maybe, you know, and there was, dude, there were new kids on the block. And I was like, it's their time, you know, and. And when I was 50, Tom Ford took me out and he was like, what's your five year plan? Because that was always his thing. I was like, I don't think that far. Like, I don't have a five year plan. Like. And he's like, well, he goes, you can't be a 55 year old casting director. And I was just like, oh, I was like gut punched. And I was like. And I was like, I just thought, you know what, you're right. So I'm out. And so I slowly started getting out and then made my, you know, did my last show season and then I was like, I'm retired. So that was.

[Lauren Sherman]

So now we're going to talk shop, but actual shop. But really quickly, do you feel like the work that you did? Because I think I, I mean I definitely was at Voices. I don't remember most, most of the last 10 years of. Because I barely slept. But I remember that you having them on stage and drawing up the, like working on different concepts in all these salons, at Voices, at this big event BoF does every year. And do you feel like the industry changed? Do you think that people are more careful now than they were or, or they think more about how they treat people from, from every, all that work you did.

[James Scully]

I hope so. I'm so far distanced from it. And I do have to say, like, still, I would say sometimes even once a week, I still get someone who saw, saw that who thinks it was last year.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[James Scully]

So it's pretty amazing that that is still out there. I definitely know it stopped the flow of the amount of young people, like, coming into that business. You know, at the end of the day, I think Vogue pretty much sticks to the, you know, the whole Conde Nast charter is still, you know, unless you're a celebrity's kid or something that you're not getting on the pages of that magazine. And for that, that was. And the one thing I will say is those seven or eight people, some of them are gone, and the rest really put them on a leash. Because one of the things that people have to remember was that if LVMH or Kering hired a person that was doing something abusive and it was reported that person could never work for any of their brands ever again. And that was part of the. For me, that was the thing that was like, okay, that's what I really want. Because then they're just out and they're done. But no, it pretty much put everyone else on a leash. And occasionally people still call me and they're like, this one's doing this and this one's doing that. I'm like, look, I left you the tools. Like, yeah, you have to. It's up to you. Like, social media is very powerful. You could stop someone in five seconds with social media. So don't, you know, you created these monsters. It was not my job to get rid of them. It was your job to take better care of your talent. And you knew what was going on and, you know, you should never have let it happen.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. So now you're tackling a whole other problem in the fashion industry, which is the, the challenge of the riddle of retail, which you. Even in the 90s, when you were working in retail, it was challenged. I talked to Gene Pressman a few days ago and he said, you know, this was. Retail was department stores. Retail was challenged before, before the Internet. And then you, you moved to Hudson. You end up opening the store. Talk about the, the concept for Jamestown, what the reaction has been, what you've created with it. Because I hear about it from people who are up. It's. It is. It does feel like very word of mouth. It's. It's not like I read it in a magazine because no one reads magazines anymore. But what, what made you want to do it?

[James Scully]

You know, I always wanted to do it. I had sort of two aborted attempts. I was attempting to do something in 2001, and then nine, 11 just killed the whole, the whole idea Like I said first, as much as I love fashion shows, as much as I love buying, as much like I love stores, like my whole life, like, you could put me in any town on the planet. And the first thing I will do before I hit a beach or any, like, I will go to a store and I will buy something. Like, I love to see how stores represent the places that they're in. And, you know, the amazing thing is, during my charvar years, there were just so many incredible stories, incredible small boutiques all over the world like ours that just had these amazing people with these amazing points of view. And it was just interesting, you know, that they could cherry pick these lines and somehow create a world and create a world out of that. And as I was living up here, I was perfectly happy doing nothing. And then when my partner was like, let's not go back, he came downstairs one day and he's like, you're opening that store you always wanted to open. I was like, no, I'm not. I was like, that ship has sailed. I don't. I really don't. I don't even know how I would think about doing this. And then there was a space that I thought, if this ever came up, we're in business. And one day that space fell on my lap and he's like, now we're doing it. And I just thought, okay. So the idea is based on some of the places that I always loved shopping when I was younger and, you know, like Fred Siegel, Henry Lair, just these sort of emporiums of things that weren't necessarily designer anything. It was more that they would create a world. And you could go into this world and just buy the coolest T shirt or the greatest pair of pants. And even though they were a fortune, somehow they made these really kind of expensive, amazing things feel very sporty. And, you know, as retail just start, you know, like department stores got boring and the whole, like conglomeration of, you know, the Chanel's and all that, you know, and these were also brands and Prada, things that I would have bought for myself personally. But it just, all of it has become so big that it probably, like me, like many people, it turned me off. But I just felt like, especially in the last five or 10 years, there are just these small boutiques coming up all over that exist and some new ones that just really do something personal for people who really do. Because people love to buy clothes and my customers love to buy clothes. And, you know, places like Lost and Found and Noodle Stories and Mohawk like all these things started to happen like 10 years and I'd go to LA for work and I'm like, wow, these are like, this is where I want to shop. These are the cool stores map in Provincetown. Like, they're just. There are all these kind of great. I mean, even in Portland, Maine, there are like stores that carry really things that would surprise you. And I'm like, you'd think like, wow, these people are important, Maine. And they are. And I just, as I started to think about it, I was like, you know, I'm living up here. There's just so many great looking people. There are a lot of people visiting this town. We have, we're kind of like the epicenter of a new tourist. We're becoming a huge tourist town mostly because we also have ski resorts. So there's something to do. It's a very outdoor lifestyle up here. So when I decided to do this, I just thought my partner and I were like, well, the best thing would be like, I'm just gonna raid my closet and approach all the people that I personally wear and love and ask if they would help us out. And it was originally just gonna be a men's store. And then the woman's space opened and again in a full circle moment. This was kind of an amazing creation of all the people that I've known, my entire business in different realms, who've been able to help me out. And so the first thing I did when I was putting the woman's together, I was like, I'm going to call Christina Kim from dosa because I used to buy a Charivari and she's still doing a small. And she was like, I will sell you. And then we got. I spoke with Maurizio Donati years ago on a sustainability conference and he. In the menswear world, especially in the creative world, in the world of vintage, like serious vintage collectors, he is like a God. And he basically takes. He has a warehouse, rooms and rooms of vintage clothes in Los Angeles. And he comes up with a theme and he recreates these clothes pretty much like rare military, old polo from the 70s and 80s. And he just totally rebuilds these clothes into a theme and kind of getting him Christina and then double rl. Then the rest of the industry is like, oh, like you're doing something, I'd love to work with you. So I was able to pretty much assemble a roster of people that I personally believe in. And it was really, it was fun because. And our men and women's customer are different, but the same. But I just felt like there's a realm of people who shop in the world that never went into department stores that really do believe in beautiful clothes that say something that are transformative to each person that shops in the store. And on the women's side, besides dosa, there's a German designer that we also years ago bought a charvard called Hannah Wessel and Pas de Calais, which is this Japanese brand. Women who buy that collect it. And the. Again, these clothes, they're not cheap, they're not expensive. And most of these things, the jackets are reversible. They're made of different. You know, like, everything has a lin. You open the jacket and there's a beautiful tape trim with maybe some embroidery. You know, like, just. It's all these kind of little details that I personally love. And by living up here and watching people, I really thought like, oh, this is really this woman up here, and she's. I don't know where she's shopping, and this is the guy. So I'm just going to assemble this group of things that feel very personal to me and see how it flies. And it really. I hit a nerve pretty quick.

[Lauren Sherman]

I have so many questions for you about this part of your career is so amazing. Are you going to write a book?

[James Scully]

Everyone asks me that. And I, like, Kate Betts has told me, like, forever. Like, you have a book in you. Like, you have to, have to. I just don't know when I would do it now, but my partner's dying for me to write one, too.

[Lauren Sherman]

You should do it. So a couple of things. One is, you messaged me a few weeks ago about. I had gotten feedback from a reader, say, who was talking about, like, the way Gen Z versus Millennial Shop and things like that. I believe in retail, I believe in stores, but I see it from my life myself. And I was talking. I was with a talent agent last night at this Tory Burch thing, and she's a big shopper, but she was like, I just don't. And I was actually with another person yesterday, a Hollywood person who's a whole. Who loves fashion and was like, I used to go to Barney's. I don't. There are great shops in la. It's not conducive. And maybe because you're on. On the, like, Main street in Hudson, there's lots of foot traffic, that sort of thing. Even in New York. It's just in New York, there's a little more. I'm gonna go to the store. But in California and in these, like, Car cultures. We just live in this world now. I never go shopping.

[James Scully]

Shopping.

[Lauren Sherman]

I never. I will go to Scout maybe once every six months, which everyone on this who listens podcast wants to kill me because I mentioned Scout every other podcast, but I'll go to Scout. I'll go to a couple shops. But it's not. It's not as much a part of the culture as it used to be. So what. What do you think you're doing, right, that's making it work? Like, what's the mix? Because you also don't have online retail, right? So. So how are you making it happen? Because you're. And you're not promoing like crazy on the Instagram account either, so.

[James Scully]

No, but I guess, like, very quick, you know, this is kind of where the word of mouth and having been in this industry for so long, I was able to really, like, reach out to designers that I worked with, to reach out with showrooms that I worked with, to, you know, Alan Castro, who was the art director back in the Tom Ford Gucci days. Like, he rang me up one day. He's like, I'd love to do your logo. And, like, he. In one hour, like, came back with, like, the Jamestown logo. And, you know, the whole thing is like, we just really wanted to have the place that felt very positive, super happy. The music is great. Like, everyone just comes in and they're like, we love the music. We love the whole feeling of the store, even, you know, which was very important. You know, just a really fun place to shop. And, you know, same thing I was able, you know, I worked with Samira. She wrote something in Bazaar. Nick Sullivan wrote something in Esquire, you know, business of fashion. Wrote a thing about our. You know, like, I was able to call every press person I knew, like, get something out. Which all of En Vogue. And all of these things have really did cause word of mouth. But the coolest thing is that now the customers who come in and shop are really like, my son came in here and told me I would love this store. And besides a lot of New Yorkers who come and visit, I now really have, like, steady people coming from Boston, coming from Philadelphia. They're like, we're up. Yeah, I didn't realize Boston was so close. And I had a woman come in. She's like, oh, my girlfriend came in and, you know, bought some really nice things. So here are me and my friends, and they, like, come down. And now people just call me on the phone. They're like, oh, my girlfriend was in. Send me Some p. I do a lot of phone business now just because someone came in and like, for me, the word of mouth blows me away. Like, I just cannot believe how many people just said, my friend, especially this last weekend, my friend told me, and here I am with my family. Like, here is my son. Here is my what? Like, let's all go shopping together. And that was really like said. And the fact that I consciously chose a lot of brands that don't have websites, that are not in department stores, that are not on the seasonal markdown calendar. So, like, I really sell in season. Like, we did not put a piece of spring out till April 1, so April 1, I did a blast. We had probably 40 of our regular customers came in, and one of the biggest weekends since we opened. And since we have opened, we have profited every month. And we broke even in our first year, which was last Saturday. And just now we've started the new month and we're double ahead of what we thought we would be. So it's really. It's re. You know, knock wood.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Well, any final thoughts? Do you think that the key. I been thinking about this a lot, and because of all this Saks Global stuff that we're in the middle of, they just reached out to. They say to find new financing, but they hire people who usually do restructurings. Who knows, by the time this publishes, a few days from now, what will the situation will be? But it. I'm curious to know from you, like, do you think that the key to retail now is. Is keeping small and specific and managing it?

[James Scully]

Yeah, absolutely. Because I feel like, you know, again, like, if you think of some of the greatest boutiques in this country that have been 30, 40 years, you know, like Ameris, like, you know, like Henry Lair, which has five stores in the Hamptons, no website, and their store kills it every year. The other person that really inspired me to open a store was Tina, which I thought was one of the greatest stores. You know, like, and there was a reason that people went to Tina, you know, like, I just think. And one of the other reasons I opened a store was that when I moved up here, it was really interesting to me that someone would take a barn 40 miles into the Catskills, which is an hour away from here, and there would be people lined up to get in there. And I was like, people will go and travel for something that is incredible. And I thought I. You know, and I thought, wow, if I can just do that in Hudson and become a destination. I just feel like destination shopping has been a thing for a while. Like, I feel like everyone I know in New York goes to her Schleifer's. You know, they don't shop in New York anymore. They're going, you know, or now they're going all the way to Brooklyn and going event space. You know, they're just, you'll go where there is somewhere that caters to what you want. And I truly believe that destination shopping is a big thing. And I do feel like if you keep it small and personal, that is really, you know, nothing makes me happier than when someone comes in the store, whether they buy or not and just say like, I had a great time here. Like, you made me feel at home. And I, you know, I just bought this blouse and you just gave me a confidence that I did not have when I walked in. And like, I, like, I really believe in the transformative power of clothes. And when people, you know, try something on and they really, really love it, like, and they leave my store and they're super happy. And the other smart thing that I think we did was, was the packaging. I really wanted a beautiful bag. I wanted a great hat. And our new manager just said, oh, all the, you know, the girlies on Twitter are talking about your hat. So it's like the thing to hat, you know, like, and I didn't even know, I was like, wow. So that's, you know, it's these kind of little things that become kind of free advertising that have sort of gotten our name out there as well. So it's been. And like I said, all of my great fashion fans, all of my great friends in publishing, they've all come to the store, they've all shopped and they've all, and they, they all come back. So it's not even like a one time visit, you know, it's pretty. It's pretty. And the amount of other retailers that have come to my store that I really admire that have just said, wow, you, I haven't seen something that got me this excited in 15 years, which I don't think, you know, when I walk in the store, I'm happy. This is my store. But to really see what other people think and feel when they come in your store is really the biggest reward.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, yeah, it's, I, I hope that I, I feel like destination shopping and, and it feels purposeful is the, it's the only way to do it. If you have the means and you have the, and you seek stuff out. I mean, today all I really have to go because I might I have to wake my kid up. But I feel like today the only thing people want. That's why vintage is so popular. They just want something special. You were saying Mugler and Romeo Gigli and all these brands that now, all these. This new generation is just constantly seeking out. You go to Paris and the list of brands at the vintage shops is like Alaia, all that Yoji, all this stuff from early 90s Margiela. And because it feels special. Nothing feels special anymore. Like a dress from DOSA feels special because you can only get it in. I mean, I don't know, 20 accounts in the world. That's it.

[James Scully]

It's like, you know, that's. No. And again, like a lot of interesting thing in the market is, which is not in the market in general, but is how many people are working with repurposed, you know, doses circular Rent Rage is totally remade out of recycled clothes. Maurizio is recycled. Mon. Italy is dead stock. Rth, which also I do crazy business with, is all dead stock fabric. You know, it's just. And so it's. It's interesting that there's a whole thing that nobody talks about that's going on in the business as well. And it means a lot, especially to, like you said to young people, like that is even a better story, you know, then here is a new. A new shirt. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. James, thank you so much for spending so much time. We should do a part two sometime soon. But it was really fun to chat with you and. And I feel like we only scratched the surface, but there's a lot to cover.

[James Scully]

Well, I'm always around, so. And hopefully, hopefully next time you make it out, make it out to the east coast, you can swing up and stop by.

[Lauren Sherman]

I would love that. Thank you for everything. All. All that you do.

[James Scully]

Thanks a lot.

[Lauren Sherman]

Fashion people. Is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. Postman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.