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- [00:00]
Lauren Sherman
Here's a quick PSA from the RealReal saying something is last season. That's so last season. There's already enough clothing on the planet, but the best of the best is on the RealReal. The RealReal is the place to shop authenticated luxury handbags, clothing, watches and so much more. And I should know. I've been a customer since 2012. They've got it all, from Raf Simons era, Jill Sander and archival Mugler to stuff that looks a whole lot like what we just saw on the Runway. So why buy something new when you can just buy something new to you? And right now you can get $25 off your first purchase by visiting therealreal.com fashion people or any one of their stores. That's therealreal.com fashion people again, therealreal.com fashion people for $25 off your first purchase terms apply.
- [00:51]
Amanda Greeley
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- [01:26]
Lauren Sherman
Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet, and today with me on the show is Amanda Greeley, a retail exec and founder of the new tennis line Spence. We discuss Peak, DTC brand building, cute shorts, Indian Wells, Challengers, and a whole lot more. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world, and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. Busy week here in la. A reminder that I'm doing a live taping of Fashion People at the Pacific Design center at 1pm on Saturday, March 29 with Jesse Lee, the guy behind Design Space LA Design Miami and the E commerce site Basic Space. The conversation is part of the design space. LA programming and Design Space. LA is a shoppable design fair that's happening Saturday and Sunday at the Pacific Design Center. So I said a bunch of stuff multiple times. Hopes to see you there now that you really know what's going on. This week on Line Sheet, my bud Rachel Strugatz delivered a goop State of the Union. Amid Gwyneth Paltrow's latest press run, I got into the prospect of Prada Group purchasing Versace and what that'll mean for the industry. I think it's going to happen. Sounds like we'll know by April 10th, which is soon. But you know, everyone I've talked to in a bunch of different worlds is like, yeah, it's, it's moving along. So fingers crossed. It sounds like they might buy Jimmy Choo too, so interesting. Sarah Shapiro is also back on Friday today, rounding up the week that was in shopping and retail, including the launch of a new golf line called Redan or Radan or R E D A N, who knows? But to be honest, it's, it's sort of a tricky concept. It's like a private members club and then you have access to the clothes or something. I Sarah was able to unpack all of it, but the reason I thought it was important for her to write about it is that there are a lot of new sports specific activewear lines popping up, including Spence the tennis line founded by Amanda, who is my guest today. And I'd argue that this sort of surge of brands is an indication that there are more room for more players in the activewear market, which I wholeheartedly believe. Like I always say, there's like a gazillion different denim lines. People wear activewear every day. They wear activewear more than denim. Of course, there should be more and more opportunities for people with different aesthetics, all that stuff. So remember and also remember that Nike and Lululemon's two started as single sport brands. Anyway, it's perfect. Segue into my conversation with Amanda. Amanda Greely, welcome to Fashion People.
- [04:54]
Amanda Greeley
Wow. Yeah, thanks. I'm excited to do this.
- [04:59]
Lauren Sherman
So the first question we ask on Fridays is what did you have for breakfast?
- [05:04]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah, it's funny, I was reminded that you would ask this. So I'm often not a great breakfast eater, but I did have some plain Greek yogurt with some strawberries this morning and I feel good about myself for having done so.
- [05:17]
Lauren Sherman
Great. Great balance of, of carbs and protein to really get you moving.
- [05:23]
Amanda Greeley
That's right. And coffee.
- [05:25]
Lauren Sherman
So this has been a big week for you. You launched, you officially launched your, your brand, Spence. Tell me, tell me all about it and, and what it's been like this week.
- [05:38]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah, I mean, launch is such a funny word. And I think, you know, we, you know, we did an event in New York back in September that kind of coincided with the US Open and Fashion Week that was meant to be a bit of a preview, but I think a lot of people wanted to throw the word launch around then. But yeah, we, you know, we fully launched our E commerce this week on Tuesday. And this is something I've been working on, you know, intensely for a couple of years. And it's been an idea of mine since about 2018 in a pretty formed way. So to finally kind of turn the lights on and be live and have a real E commerce website that people can shop from is a bit, I mean, it's super exciting and it's a bit surreal because it has felt like a long time coming.
- [06:25]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, I'm perusing it right now at Spence Us, so before we'll walk back and learn more about your history and that fully formed idea. But to start, what is Spence? Explain it. Give us your elevator pitch.
- [06:42]
Amanda Greeley
I mean, Spence is like the new disruptive, exciting, racket, sports focused apparel brand, I think. I mean, it's hard for me not to jump around and this is not a good elevator pitch. But I, you know, back in 2018, a good friend of mine named Paul Munford who kept a newsletter about direct to consumer brands called Lean Lux and I were talking about.
- [07:04]
Lauren Sherman
My God, Lean Lux? Yeah, throwback Lean Lux Slack. Does it still exist?
- [07:10]
Amanda Greeley
It still exists. Which I learned they were talking about Spence this week in the Slack, but he's actually bringing back a new version of Lean Lux in the next week. So, like, very funny timing, but Hugh and I were chatting about a lot of the cool new running focused and cycling focused brands around 2018 and, and he knew me well enough to know I had played tennis my whole life. And he was like, you've played tennis your whole life. There's no cool tennis brand. You should do it. And I was just, I mean, on the spot. I knew it was going to be called Spence, which is, it was kind of bizarre that it came that quickly. But the reason is that right away I had this sense that it had to be both for men and for women. And the silly story is Spencer is a name that my mom liked for boys at the time I was born. So I kind of thought, what a funny, more masculine alter ego. And I liked that it was easy to say spell, remember? Kind of had that sportiness to it. And I think kind of feels like tennis without saying something that's literally to tennis. And also at that time, right away I was like, it needs to be racket sports, not just tennis. But also I really didn't want it to be a golf and tennis brand. I think you see that a lot and then you kind of inevitably get this like golf pros and tennis hose thing that goes on in terms of aesthetic. I probably.
- [08:30]
Lauren Sherman
Oh my God. I actually didn't know about golf pros and tennis hose. And I'm excited. It makes sense.
- [08:37]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah. So anyway, I kind of was looking around at the space at the time and what you saw was kind of your giant athletic apparel brands, your Adidas and your Nikes, kind of. I felt like their assortments were getting really tired. In fact, I tried to go shop for myself because I was getting back into tennis as an adult. And I went to Nike.com thinking I'm going to buy $300 worth of new tennis gear and just didn't want anything. And so I was like, huh, that's interesting. And then you look at some at the time brands like Wilson and Yonex and Head and Fila. Actually, Fila is not long, but Babelot all had no direct E Commerce. And so it was kind of shocking to me that as late as 2019 we were, you know, 10 years into like the post warby Parkerization of every category and that tennis was still like in wholesale world and largely distributed on tennis warehouse. And then you have a lot of like small niche country club brands, I would say that maybe aren't great performance and are super preppy. And so I was just like, wow, there hasn't been anything that feels really fresh, cool, new, exciting in tennis and racquet sports. And I just kind of was like, man, this would be really fun to do if given the opportunity.
- [09:49]
Lauren Sherman
So why were you in the Lean Lux Slack? And we should explain. And you, you sort of did. Lean Lux was this like luxury newsletter. I did have some issues with Paul because he used to like rip my stories and put my name on his post, which if he does that again this time, don't do that, Paul. It was not a good way to offer, but I did think that he had. He built this really amazing community. And there was the slack, but it was all about it. It was in the middle of the 2010s at the launch of Direct to consumer and not the launch of direct to consumer but like the, the kind of peak of the idea of direct to consumer.
- [10:33]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah, I agree. It was like the pinnacle, like peak dtc.
- [10:36]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. So how were you involved in the DTC world?
- [10:40]
Amanda Greeley
I. Funny enough, my, my mom is who found the newsletter first and sent it to me and was like, this guy says some interesting stuff sometimes and he.
- [10:48]
Lauren Sherman
Really does, he does, but he, he does. He used to put all of our names at the bottom of. Of his thing, like all the writers in, in that industry. It was really weird. Just don't do that. He didn't know. It's fine. He won't do it this time.
- [11:02]
Amanda Greeley
It was a long time ago. Yeah, yeah. And around the same time, you know, I also kind of got pulled in. Pulled in is maybe the wrong but like brought into a direct to consumer brand called cup, which was an underwear. It still exists. But I was kind of. I was one of maybe two people who were non founders who were involved from the very jump of that and spent almost two years like pre launch helping develop that brand and product. So I, I think that, you know, I was spending a lot. Even though I was living in Charleston already, I was in New York at least a couple times a month in that stretch of time and probably about when I got, you know, when I discovered lean luck, slack and all of that.
- [11:45]
Lauren Sherman
And your mom is. I know, I know your mom because I wrote a book about Victoria's Secret. Your mom worked at Victoria's Secret. Right. But she's also the CEO of Serena and Lily, which is a great like DTC homeware brand. And so did you kind of just grow up in retail?
- [12:03]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah, I mean I often. If I'm pitching somebody, I often end up saying some version of exactly that, like jumping to the background thing. Like it's, it's kind of hard for me to imagine being who I am were she not my mom. She started working at the Victoria Secret home office the year I was born as a robe buyer and kind of like worked her way fully through that company and, and left, you know, after I was through college. So I mean I spent so much time at that home office and I still keep in touch with people she worked with who have known me since I was 4 or 5. And it's kind of wild. And she's just this real powerhouse merchant really, who's always sort of in the back of my head. I mean if I really enjoy kind of brand direction and art direction and the creative side of bringing all this to life, like she's the one who's always like, but what's your hero item? You know? And. Yeah, and really kind of a good, tough sounding board on kind of like what's really going to drive growth and build your business versus just everything looking cool. So, yeah, I mean, I grew up in Columbus, Ohio, because I was very much in that kind of orbit of Wexner World, and that's very much shaped who I am.
- [13:18]
Lauren Sherman
It's so interesting. I know one other child of Victoria's Secret who Grace Nichols. Celia Nichols, who I'm sure you know.
- [13:29]
Amanda Greeley
You know Celia.
- [13:30]
Lauren Sherman
Poor Celia. When I was writing the book, I'm like, celia, could I talk to your mom? Because, you know, private Graces.
- [13:36]
Amanda Greeley
But, yeah, I actually think my mom just saw Grace down in Florida a couple of weeks ago. My mom worked directly for Grace for, I mean, probably close to 20 years, maybe 15. But I knew Grace since I was really little, obviously. And in fact, Grace is who my mom was actually a buyer for a children's clothing company in Columbus, a small children's clothing company. And Grace went into shop for her daughters and just really liked how she had merchandised the whole thing and was like, do you. Do you want a bigger job? Kind of thing. And so that's how she ended up going to Victoria's Secret to begin with.
- [14:10]
Lauren Sherman
That's me. Well, we won't make this a Victoria's Secret podcast. One more thing is your mom's name is Lori, Lori Greeley. But. But the one thing I will say that I think is interesting about you and the. The thing that I've been really drawn to. Spence, when you pre launch some. I think someone mentioned it to me. I started following you on Instagram, we started talking, and I went. I came to the party you did with Racket with Caitlin Thompson, who was just on Dylan Byers podcast. And you all should listen to it if you're into sports and you're into brand building. But the brand was like, really clear from the beginning. And I mean, I was attracted to. And we can talk about why and how you developed it, but one of the reasons that Chantal Fernandez and I wanted to write that book about Victoria's Secret, like, it's a great story. It's an epic story. There's a million stories. We could have done a book just about Grace Nichols and the time that she was there and your mom and all that stuff. But. But we wanted to tell that whole story because it's an amazing feat of brand development. Like from the beginning, from the founders, the Raymonds all the way up to when your mom was there. That's when it really became in some ways the biggest brand in America. But there is, if you want a case study of how to build a brand, a retail brand like Victoria's Secret still works. And that must have been an amazing osmosis thing happening for you.
- [15:37]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah, I mean, it was really, it was a really cool background to my childhood. And it's so funny. I mean, she cared so much. I can't tell you. My mom drove. This is funny. When she got promoted to vice president, she bought a gold XJS convertible. And it's funny because at the time I like loved it and was also kind of embarrassed by it because like everyone else's mom's drove a minivan. And then like, there's my blonde mother in her gold convertible, which is fabulous. But like on weekends we would drive around to like the different malls around central Ohio and like, look at the floor sets and like, be like, what's right? What's wrong? Like, it was just such a. And in some ways, I never really heard anyone say this, but in some ways the, the mall brands of America in that window of time were sort of the original direct brand and that they kind of moved past the department store and while they had to invest a ton in real estate. So that's very different than where brands start now. But you know, they got to own the whole experience with their customer in terms of like walking into the store and what the product was. And so, yeah, I mean, at their pinnacle, I mean it was a, it was definitely about as culturally relevant as like a mainstream American mall brand could get for sure.
- [16:51]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, the, the point that they were the original DC DTC brands is, is so important. So how did you end up in Charleston? You mentioned that you, you had moved down there. Were you in New York previous to that?
- [17:04]
Amanda Greeley
I was, I was. And I, I, you know, I grew up coming down here. My, my dad really loved history and historic stuff and we just at least once a year would come down here and I just always thought it was a special little city. And when I moved here, I don't think I was in it for some kind of like, long haul thing. I thought like, this will be a fun detour for a year or two. And then I kind of imagined I'd maybe go back to New York or maybe even go to the West Coast. I've always kind of had a thing for la, which if you look at our starting website right now, you'll be like, damn, this girl. Loves la. But you know, I've been in Charleston and the cool thing about Charleston also is sort of it's pretty easy to get to and from New York. So as I've kind of continued to work on things there, it's like it's not so hard to jet back and forth. But yeah, I discovered it as a kid and after several years of being in New York, I just was like, man, I would love to spend some more time outside and get some more sun and just do something a little bit different. And that's what took me down here. And I don't know if I'll be here forever, but it really is a special little city that's also continued to evolve and change a lot since I've been here. You know, I think, you know, maybe people who listen to this might like watch Southern Charmed or something. And it's just so not the whole picture of kind of what this place is. And especially in the post Covid landscape, I mean you just see a lot more people who have lived in bigger places and have done kind of bigger things, kind of making this at least if not their full time residence, a place they spend time. So I just feel like I continue to meet more and more interesting people who have kind of ended up here for one reason or another.
- [18:41]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. Who was that couple who I think they opened? They're friends with Lizzie and Catherine Fortunato.
- [18:49]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah. Ben and Kate Towell.
- [18:51]
Lauren Sherman
Yes. Yeah, they opened a. Is it a hotel down there?
- [18:55]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah, they've got a sweet little hotel called the Post House in Old Mount Pleasant. And they took. It was a Post House and then they renovated it and made it a really sweet maybe like eight room hotel. But it also has a great restaurant downstairs. And actually it's so funny because, well, we can. I don't want to jump around too much, but Kate, Tracy Giorgiou, who's working on this with me, she was actually in town on a project and was having a coffee or lunch with Kate and somehow Spence came up and so Tracy started following Spence and I was like ah, like we have people in common but we hadn't met. And I was like, good, follow. Because at that time the Instagram was nothing. And so I was like, hey, like who tell me. You know, it was long weekend is her agency and she's like, I'm actually in Charleston, do you want to get a coffee? So we got a coffee the next morning last summer and. And then that's kind of how we started working together. But it was through Kate to funny Enough.
- [19:50]
Lauren Sherman
That's so funny.
- [19:51]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah. Small world.
- [19:55]
Lauren Sherman
Here's a quick PSA from the RealReal saying something is last season. That's so last season. There's already enough clothing on the planet. But the best of the best is on the RealReal. The RealReal is the place to shop authenticated luxury handbags, clothing, watches, and so much more. And I should know. I've been a customer since 2012. They've got it all from Raf Simons era, Jill Sander and archival Mugler to stuff that looks a whole lot like what we just saw on the Runway. So why buy something new when you can just buy something new to you? And right now you can get $25 off your first purchase by visiting therealreal.comfashion people or any one of their stores. That's therealreal.comfashion again, therealreal.comfashionpeople for $25 off your first purchase. Terms apply. So, okay, let's talk about. You mentioned 2018. You got this idea. You couldn't find anything. The thing is, tennis is always around. It's not. But the last, obviously, during COVID the like, racket sports thing has exploded. What were you seeing in the market that you felt like, okay, I want to do an activewear brand that is centered around racket sports specifically. Why did you feel like that was a good jumping off point?
- [21:22]
Amanda Greeley
I felt like, well, okay, I felt like back at that time. It is interesting because I started even in 2018, I did, you know, having kind of been a part of the team at cup who was kind of pitching for a rounds and stuff. It was kind of like that was my early exposure to kind of like the VC pitch idea. And so even having kind of been around for that, I started to float the idea of this tennis or racket sports specific brand with people then. And it's so crazy how quickly the conversation can change because at that time everyone was like, you're so right. There isn't a cool tennis brand. This sounds really cool. But then they're like, eh, the tam for tennis is too small.
- [22:00]
Lauren Sherman
It's not really seen as total addressable market.
- [22:03]
Amanda Greeley
Sorry. Yes, that it's okay. I thought I might have to say that. But the idea was like, it just wasn't a big enough group of people. And so all of that changed tremendously. Come enter pandemic. Enter pickleball explosion. And I can't tell you how many times since then someone has been just like, well, why don't you just make it a pickleball brand? And you're like, no, that, that's not it. But the reason is I felt like I looked around and I saw, you know, the big, the big example is like let's say Lululemon. Like before Lululemon came on the scene in the late 90s, yoga was a completely. I mean, I think only like 15 million Americans did yoga around 2000. It was seen as like niche and crunchy and you know, people were either wearing dance apparel or like kind of loose hemp hippie stuff. And so they really changed what it meant to be a girl who does. I say, I say woman. Men do it too. But like, you know, that's really who changed that space. But change what it meant to be a woman who does yoga. And it became urban and cool and attractive. And you just look at how many brands now have like big brands that kind of are spawn of Lulu, whether it's aloe or beyond yoga, Vuori even are all kind of reactions to Lulu. And so it was fascinating to me that like the big unlock felt like if you could create something special enough that not only speaks to people who already do the thing, meaning like already play tennis, but if you can make people be like, oh, this is interesting. Why am I not playing a racket sport? Like, I kind of want to be a part of this. And so there were like two things going on. One was like the positioning of it all, the story behind it, the things that make it feel a bit more fun and human and about connection and kind of emotional. I think a lot of direct to consumer brands get really value prop driven to the point that they almost feel soulless. And that's kind of like the special thing that luxury brands still get to do is really like speak to emotion. And at some point, like I was like, man, Spence has kind of like gotten of feeling to it. Like it's got to make people be like, ah, that's interesting. At the same time, product wise, I felt like there was just a lot of like crummy dry fit, unflattering cut like tennis clothes out there or it was like, you know, not functional enough. It was like too much for the Instagram posed picture. Like the pleated skirt that like is cute if you're not doing anything. But again, to my, my golf pros and tennis hose reference, like, it's just a little bit too on the nose. I felt like there wasn't anyone kind of taking that ethos of classic tennis. When you've got a sport with so much history of the intersection of sport and style, like it's kind of the original sport to be about fashion and sport at the same time. And yet like, what I was seeing was either just like truly unstylish and like capital P performance or kind of a bit of a caricature. It was like almost like tennis cosplay. And I was like, man, there's just. There's just an opportunity to do. To use actual interesting, innovative materials, but then use them in a way that feels really wearable and classic and not try hard. I think you see a lot of try hard clothing in the tennis space, like the V neck sweater on the super posed girl. And I'm like, I've played tennis since I was 4 years old and I've never actually seen someone show up to a tennis court in that. So I just wanted to be more like again, like take the roots of classic, like something that feels really tennis but also is actually future looking and in how it's made and to have it feel really wearable.
- [25:39]
Lauren Sherman
You know, I never take notes during this, but I'm writing stuff down because I have so many things that I want to talk to you about from what you're saying. It's such a fun topic. So the first thing is you mentioned Lululemon. I think you could even go back to Nike.
- [25:53]
Amanda Greeley
You can. I mean, I'm the early deck. The. The first deck I made. The first deck I made during COVID I've made so many decks about Spence, it's embarrassing. But I had this real light bulb moment kind of in an early pandemic day or I was sitting on my living room floor and I was like, oh my God, Nike made it, quote, unquote, normal to be a runner. Before Nike, no one just. It was so weird to be a runner. So that whole story is about that. And. And then obviously, like, Nike kind of has a few iterations because of like the Intersect, like the addition of Michael Jordan and basketball and celebrity marketing and that, you know, that's a huge shift. But you're right, that initial, like, what does it mean to be a runner? And Phil Knight selling shoes out of the back of his car at, you know, at track meets and all that is so awesome and just like, so cool. But then the second one was that, like, Lulu jump. And I was just like, man, who's done this for tennis?
- [26:48]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. So who, who are you buds with? The Tracksmith guys? Because I could see them giving you advice or like, do you know them at all?
- [26:57]
Amanda Greeley
You know, I've never met them. I've kind of. I've admired them. From afar in that I think, like, the way they've seemed to go about building their business feels really responsible and focused. And I think they've got, you know, they have a really clear point of view. I've gotten to know Lee Glendorf, who keeps a substack about. Oh, yeah. And so she, you know, she was there for 10 years in marketing. And so we've. We've chatted a bit, and then funny if Lauren, our design director, came from tracksmith most recently. So. So we do have some tracksmith, like, you know, that our trim supplier was the same. You know, we have some overlap and kind of that. But I've never actually met their founders.
- [27:34]
Lauren Sherman
I think in activewear, it's interesting. I mean, I've been covering this. This category since the. Since the kind of rise of dtc. I would say I became very interested in it as a fashion reporter when Outdoor Voices launched, because it was the first time I ever bought, like, I used to work out in my T shirt from my, like, lacrosse T shirt from high school.
- [27:59]
Amanda Greeley
Hell, yeah.
- [28:00]
Lauren Sherman
Which I still sleep in.
- [28:02]
Amanda Greeley
This is so funny. My mom actually just found my middle school lacrosse sweatshirt that I wore. Like, it's, like, probably 25 years old or whatever, and I've kind of ironically been wearing it around because it's got, like, the big sticks on the back and says Greeley on the back. And it's just, like, so dorky that it's awesome.
- [28:18]
Lauren Sherman
So good. I love lacrosse. Such an aggressive sport, for sure. Outdoor Voices was the first time I was like, oh, I actually want to buy this stuff. And now I can't imagine not wearing performance gear when I'm working out. But the point being that, like, at that time, there were all these sort of of challengers to Nike, and it felt like no one had an opportunity to really make a mark. But then something shifted, and there was a realization. Maybe it's like the. I always talk about the fragmentation of culture, but that, like, there actually was a huge opportunity. And I think that opportunity is still so huge for, like, more players in activewear and all of that. But you have to start with their point of view in terms. So. So what do you see?
- [29:03]
Amanda Greeley
Like, my brain's kind of spinning because one thing. I mean, this almost feels like state secrets, but I. One thing we talk about internally a bit is I think, you know, athleisure is the word that kind of get, like, I hate that word. But it. You know, a lot of people want to be, like, associate with athleisure with, like, lifestyle and how you live your life. But I think the word we've thought about a lot that you don't hear brands use much anywhere is the idea of sportswear and the idea of like, like for me, athleisure has a bit of a laziness to it, whereas sportswear has this put togetherness. And I think like now we have an ability, you know, because we, we all, lot of us kind of live our lives in this intersection of like active and going about our life. And so like when I'm thinking about product for Spence and being focused, it's like everything has to make sense on a tennis court. Like if you. Anything in our assortment, like if it shows up on a tennis court and looks silly, like then it, then it can't be in our assortment right now. Whereas I think some other brands, like you've got a palm society is cool, but like they do a lot of things that are truly, you know, more just regular button up shirts and that and that sort of thing. But I think, I think thinking about like where you're going afterwards and like how you can style things differently. So like even I love that our little red mini skirt, like it honestly looks so cute styled with like a sweater and socks and loafers as a like completely non tennis look, but it also makes sense on a tennis court. And so I think, you know, I'm talking in circles a little bit, but I think there's this opportunity to kind of push activewear to a place that actually is more stylish again that like makes it something that you, you want in your closet to do sport. But also like it works, it works in more ways than that.
- [30:49]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. I felt like at your launch where you had some, some samples and I think Tracy was wearing the skirt.
- [30:57]
Amanda Greeley
She was, Yeah.
- [30:59]
Lauren Sherman
I mean she, she also. And, and we should say so Tracy is, she has this, this agency that she does like a lot of partnership and collaboration. She worked at the J. Crew Group for a long time doing collaboration, like reaching out. What, what. How did you bring her into the fold when you were putting this all together?
- [31:18]
Amanda Greeley
It was under the guise of, of kind of this idea of being a thought partner on kind of like launch strategy and the right partnerships going forward. And also, you know, she's a fun kind of like merchant hat sounding board too. You know, she worked for Mickey for a long time and so it's kind of interesting that she's got that exposure to like the, one of the OG Merchant powerhouses in retail too. And it's, you know, it's Funny. The OV thing is really funny. I. I just, I don't even know how, but I discovered outdoor voices when they truly, their website was a white background with eight flat lays of, you know, courier font. Like, it was not a smart website. It was probably like a squarespace website. And I bought a tank and these running shorts just because, like, you, I was like, man, this actually feels different for some reason and I'm excited to buy this. And it's funny, like, the shorts actually, like, weren't even functional really, but I like, I liked them and they were cool looking. But Tracy actually discovered OV very early, and that was how it led to them being on J. Crew, which was a huge, you know, pivot or huge, like, breakthrough for them to get picked up as a label they love. And then that's what led to Lauren, who's working on Spence now, kind of finding them getting connected and then her becoming their first design director. So it's interesting because, like, Tracy, Lauren and I were not connected directly before this and now, like, all have all these shared experiences. But Tracy, yeah, Tracy is helping basically manage launch. Is she's like my other half in a lot of ways in terms of, like, staying on top of, like, what we're. What we're plotting as far as partnerships going forward. And then also just kind of, let's. Let's review the assortment and talk about what we love or what we think is missing and what we, you know, what we're betting on. All that kind of stuff is really fun to do together.
- [33:10]
Lauren Sherman
So fun.
- [33:13]
Alex Asoulin
Hi, I'm Alex Asoulin, and I'm inviting you to listen to Asulin's official podcast, Culture Lounge. For the last 30 years, Asulin has created books at the center of culture and luxury, covering everything from wine and watches to fashion, travel and Formula One. Now we're inviting you into our world through a new and exciting medium. Join me on Culture Lounge, where you will hear intimate conversations with icons like Erin Lauder, Linda Fargo, Mario Corbone, curators from Sotheby's, and the world's best sommelier, all gathered like old friends at a beautiful bar, discussing their deepest passions, sharing stories, and giving us their best advice. It's like eavesdropping on the most interesting conversation you could ever imagine. Culture Lounge is available wherever you get your podcast. Tune in now to be inspired and learn something new.
- [34:07]
Amanda Greeley
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- [34:42]
Lauren Sherman
So trying to get back on track, which I'm having trouble. I'm doing a bad job because I am, like, very excited to talk to you about all this stuff. But. So you, you thought of the idea originally in 2018. It sounds, you did many decks, so I assume it went through many iterations. How did you get to the point that you're at now? Did you end up raising money? Like, what is the, the big picture concept? And, and how did you. What's your go to market, I guess is the right term?
- [35:09]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah, I mean, there's like six questions in there. Like, but, but yeah, I mean, things do have iterations, I think when things take time, you know, what I, what I would have wanted to put out in 2019 is different than today because the world keeps changing. Five years today is like a lifetime in terms of, like this, this industry. At some point, it became clear to me that it was something I wanted to raise some money for because to run a proper product development process in athletic apparel and not just like white label some T shirts and call it a brand. It was like, no, I actually want to make things, you know, that are special. So that turning point happened in 2023. I would say, like, early 2023. I was like, okay, I'm going to raise money for this and start a business. And, you know, it's actually, it's been a really tough climate to do that. I mean, I can't tell you how many people have told me, like, well, you identified a very clear idea. You clearly know what you're talking about. But we're not doing pre revenue anymore. Like, that's, that's been something I've heard a lot. So, you know, how I've done it so far is, you know, I've put some of my, a good bit of my own money into this. I've, you know, and then kind of have piecemeal closed, you know, individuals who like me and like tennis to kind of get to a pretty good place. And then I'm still looking for a little bit more. So. There was a point, though, there was a turning point. I'd say early 24, where I felt like we had kind of Done enough that I was like, you know what? It's time to start really developing this. And the goal became to take it to market in spring of 25. And so that was sort of like my jump off the cliff moment to be like. And because I think a lot of people, because people aren't so into pre revenue as they might have been five or 10 years ago, it's sort of like people needed to see it. So it's like you can, you can talk a lot about the opportunity you see and spill out the landscape and you can do all that really articulately. But at some point people are like, well, can I see a sample? And a lot of people don't understand how, how hard it, like to get a finished sample in this category isn't like me knocking on some tailor's door to be like, make me a tennis skirt. I mean, it's, it's a lot more intensive than that. And, and sadly, a lot of investors don't, still don't really understand that. So, yeah, beginning of last year was my like, all right, we're doing this kind of moment.
- [37:33]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, the, the investing in the consumer space, it's happening, but it's, it's changing. And this idea that, like, we're not doing pre revenue anymore, but the thing is, like, how are you supposed to.
- [37:44]
Amanda Greeley
Right, do it unless you're, unless you're a gajillionaire or, you know, and like, the good thing about the VC space is a lot of people, like, you're still kind of expected to have a gimmick. It's sort of like, how are you going to trick people into a subscription model? Or how are you going to bring in a celebrity that's going to get you a ton of eyeballs on day fun? And sadly, a lot of those things, I think, lead to things that aren't enduring but maybe make a bigger splash faster. And so like, at a certain point you're kind of like, well, what if, what if we just did something good that people actually like, you know, and kind of.
- [38:16]
Lauren Sherman
But yeah, the other issue is a lot of people have bad taste. So, I mean, and taste is subjective, but it is like you, what you're, what you've done is like, looks really good. And so it will be harder for people to understand that. And I'm not trying to be a snob. Like, it just is the, what it is like the, the way that our culture develops, you people aren't like, given a lot of access to things to help them develop their aesthetics. And that's true, they don't. And even though like your stuff is very straightforward and cute, it's not like it's cons, like, like super high concept, but like anything that isn't like something they've seen before could be scary until it starts performing. And when you think back at like some of OV and tracksmith, like, I wonder if they also had challenges with that when they were raising early on. Because it's cool. It cool in a way. Like in a, in a way that like, like a lot of investor types would not understand until they. You could see the numbers.
- [39:29]
Amanda Greeley
That's right. No, I think that's, I think that's spot on. I think my understanding is ob kind of happened at a completely different environment and so maybe it wasn't as challenging. But I would be curious about tracksmith and I don't know because I also think there is like a, like the cool factor thing is so subjective and hard to. You can't prove it until people respond to it. And then also I think trying to do things that are a certain quality. I mean like this isn't a luxury product, but we're using really beautiful materials from Japan and Italy that have like really cool inherent performance, you know, attributes about them. And it's not just some whatever, you know, poly blend that stretches and so, you know, sometimes that sort of thing can be hard to communicate when you're mostly on a website. I think people can like touch things and wear things and be like, oh, this is really nice. But, but sometimes it's like, wow, $178 sweatshirt, that's a lot. And for some people, that's a lot. For some people, it's not a lot. You know, if that, that whole piece of it is interesting to continue to, to learn about too. But you know, really did want to make things that were kind of built to last. Like what are those pieces that actually get better as you wash and wear them over time? Especially something like a sweatshirt or a sweater or you know, shorts. You've been out for a long time.
- [40:47]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. So tell me about the kit. What, what are the sort of foundational pieces that you wanted to put together and how did you come up with like the color story and all of that?
- [40:59]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah, I mean the, the. It's interesting from again, like since 2018 ish. I had this idea for like a layering system, a more like mix match modular thing. It's still really common in the tennis space to get pushed like an outfit where you're supposed to wear this skirt with this top and that's the outfit. And like, if you don't really like one or the other, you're kind of like, o, I guess I gotta find something else. So I love something that you could kind of like wear it your way. And also a big kind of risk was taking the kind of built in bottom out of the skirts and shorts. Because I mean, from my memory, and it's funny, I grew up playing tennis and when I was really little, you would wear these really horrible polyester tennis panties under a skirt. And like so terrible, like I remember how they feel. But you know, in I think around like 2000, Nike invented the power skirt and they put the shorts in the skirt. And at the time that was really revolutionary. But you know, like, what I find now when I wear those types of skirts is like, if I go play, I mostly play at public courts here. I don't go to like a locker room or something before or after. So like you kind of have this feeling of being stuck in your tennis skirt where it's like, I actually would love to like pull my skirt off and like throw on some great, great pants or like just like change a little bit. And I also think there's sort of like a fit thing, you kind of compromise depending on your body shape where like the liner might not fit right right relative to the skirt. So always wanted to create these like really good kind of foundational, I guess, like, you know, close to skin layers that you could wear kind of underneath it all. But then as you, you know, build your outfit for a given day, you can decide if it's a short stay, a skirt day, a dress day, if I'm lay pants on afterwards and sort of thinking about, I mean, the other part of it that got really fun is the idea of like women really being able to wear the men's pieces too. And I think that that's something I don't really see other athletic brands showing. But you know, as we were designing and fitting our shorts, we're like, man, these shorts look great on women too. And you know, that was always the hope. But you don't know until you really start getting into it if you can make a short that really looks great on men and women. And I think it's also like that whole idea for me is a bit of a departure from having to always be the tennis girly. And in fact, I know you guys have talked about challengers on the show a number of times, but when I saw the movie last year, for some reason, aside from the plaid Shorts that we all love that he wore. My favorite Zendaya outfit was her at Stanford. And she's just wearing the giant Adidas T shirt and shorts. And I'm like, oh my God, that's, that's what I grew up playing in. And so there's something like kind of nostalgic and fun for me to just show like a men's T shirt with a woman's skirt or women's shorts and kind of getting those proportions. So not everything on a woman always has to be like cropped and tight at the same time. And again, I just don't see other athletic brands really showing women being able to style athletic apparel that way. So the whole thing was this kind of like mix match layer, you know, be able to style. You could have five pieces from Spence, but you could actually create 10 outfits out of it kind of thing. And that to me is exciting. And as for the color palette, I mean pretty early on, you know, if you think of tennis, you think like green and white. That's sort of the color that dominates the space. And so you know, you think about the color wheel and the opposite of that is red. But also at some point, you know, I think in 2020 I thought of it starts with love being our Tagline because of 00 being love and tennis. But, but also kind of there's a bigger message beyond that. And obviously like red is love too. So for me it was always like red is obviously the brand color. But as we continued to build the brand development, we've used a lot of like little hits of silver and that kind of came into play with this like futurism nod. And funny enough, my, my grandmother actually worked at NASA in the 70s and so like I grew up with. Yeah like at my grandparents house they had great commemorative plates of all the Apollo missions and the models of the spacecrafts. And so it's funny how a lot of things about the brand identity of Spence actually have become quite personal. And that featurism nod is really kind of a nod to my grandmother who was very much a future looking, don't look back person. And in fact there's a picture on our website now of it's actually my hand reaching into a pool to pull out a tennis ball. But I'm wearing one of my grandmother's rings on my finger. Cause it's just a nice little kind of nod to her.
- [45:35]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, it feels very fully formed and thoughtful and that you put a lot of work into it. And I will just say the Stuff I ordered. I'm not. I did. I played tennis in high school, but I have basically not played since then. And every once in a while we go like, hit balls. But I bought the short. I bought two pairs of the shorts and I also got the. I think the polo, which are both like, technically for men, but the shorts. I find living in California during the summer, I need something like a pull on short that looks cute to wear. And there's not a lot available. And I can't wear baggies. They don't look right on me.
- [46:23]
Amanda Greeley
No, I mean, it's actually funny you bring them up. I'll be totally transparent. And like, I've always liked the idea of baggies. I like that they have sold them for so long, but I never actually thought they looked right on me or on women. But sort of like the north star of our short, you know, as we were starting to conceptualize, it was like, let's make the baggies. That's actually flattering and that we want to wear. And so there's something about. Yeah. And I don't know about you, but it's like, especially a short, you're like knocking around in. I don't necessarily want it to be so short, but then you also don't want something like super long that swallows you. So we kind of found this sort of like, perfect medium of like, like the short that kind of looks like cute and put together and sporty without being like, oh, I have a, you know, super tiny shorty short on.
- [47:09]
Lauren Sherman
Totally. And I would say a lot of guys listen to this podcast too, or at least that I get a lot of reply, guys messaging me. But it's, it's great. The men's stuff is great. The women's stuff is great. It looks like you should all check it out. It's. It's. I'm. I'm very interested in it and, and as a consumer, like, I'm interested in your way of developing a brand and everything. But what has the first week, like, you went live on Tuesday, it's Thursday. This is going up on Friday. What have the first few, you know, what have, like the first few days, what are people in into. What kind of feedback have you gotten?
- [47:49]
Amanda Greeley
It's been good. People are buying things, I think. Like, we've. We've done what, like, the shorts seem to be. I think because the shorts are sort of like a men's and women's thing that's been an exciting item. It's funny, like, what you quick sell out of. I learned we Sold. I mean, we did these really simple French terry sweatshirts and sweatpants and, you know, put the swans on them and came up with some fun color names that I learned. As of this morning, we're already out of the mineral watercolor and you're just like, that's exciting, but also crap, you know. But I think like the big things that are catching people's eyes. I know it is, but are. The red skirt is certainly eye catching. That kind of like warm up sweatshirt we did, which is almost more like an outerwear piece piece cut out of this jumbo loop Italian terry and it's really fabulous. That's doing well. And then shorts also, it's worth saying we have probably about half the assortment is shipping in a few weeks because of when we could land everything. So some things have a later ship date. So that could be impacting what people decide to add to cart now and then. I would also say we have a good bit of newness coming midsummer that I think internally we're all very excited about. And I think we'll make kind of all of the collection seem like, oh, wow, there's a lot to mix and match now, which I'm excited about.
- [49:05]
Lauren Sherman
How much do you expect people to wear like the sports bra, the racer bra, that type of thing for other activities? Because it's obviously a tennis brand and I love the kind of idea around the name because it does feel very germane. It does. It feels like it existed before, which is. It's hard to pull off. But like, I'm sure you expect not only people wearing this off the court, but that people are going to wear this stuff for other. Do you think you'll do like a legging at some point that's. That is easy to wear for running or.
- [49:43]
Amanda Greeley
Absolutely. I mean, I think, I think it's like for me it still has to check that box of like, it makes sense on the tennis court. So like the legging, it has to have the pocket that probably will hold your phone, but it also has to hold a tennis ball. And I'm thinking about because like, you know that for me that's like a key cold layer, cold weather layering piece. And it's a, it is like a normal pain port for people who play tennis outdoor year round that like you hit a point where you're like, shoot, I want to wear a skirt. But now if I put leggings on, I lose my pockets. So like, got it. So like, yes. And you know, I, I do other things. I run, I do yoga and I'VE been wearing, you know, my kind of foundational Spence pieces to do all those things because I, I, the more, the more places these pieces go, I think the better they are. So like, yes. And I think there's something about like what a brand that really stands for a particular activity can do. It gives people an opportunity to signal like, oh, I might be at yoga today, but I'm actually, but I'm a tennis player and I think, you know, brands like Bandit or Rafa or some of District Vision, some of the other sports specific kind of brands give. You're kind of like saying something about yourself when you wear those brands. Even if you're doing a different activity when you are wearing it.
- [50:58]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, for sure. So I think the last question. We've been chatting for 45 minutes, which I didn't, didn't expect. Well, I expected, but it flew by. We just have so much ground to cover. The last question. This kind of connects to what Caitlin was taught. And again, I really recommend everyone listen to the interview with Caitlin from Racket that, that Dylan posted on the Grow Room last week. It's super fun and not just because they said nice things about me. I did hear them say them. But because it's just, I think it is very smart about how to build a business right now. It talks about a lot about media, but also tennis is a place where there are a lot of opportunities for you to, for brands to embed with the tennis community. Like there are a lot of tournaments and so that's a merch opportunity. And also there's just, there's opportunity for brands to get in there like, like F1 or whatever. It's different than with like us with running where it's, you know, it's so disparate.
- [52:06]
Amanda Greeley
No, it's so true.
- [52:08]
Lauren Sherman
How are you thinking about that?
- [52:10]
Amanda Greeley
Yeah, I mean the one tricky thing is a lot of people out of the gate assume like, well, you should try to sponsor a player on tour. And I think that will be more of a future move for us. But I think, I mean, there's a few layers. One is like the cool thing about tennis is a lot of there's like teaching pros that are sort of like the one to many real world influencers in this space. So like there's a cool way to be like, well, how do we make the coolest teaching pro in LA or Miami feel like he's in the Spence orbit? And then when people go to take lessons from him, they're like inspired by him and see what he's Wearing. But to your question about the tournament world is. I think a lot of people are looking at that space right now and thinking about how to do interesting things there, because I think the growth in tennis and racquet sports is pretty known at this point. And it's still, you know, you have your big major tournaments and those, you know, Roland Garros and Wimbledon and the US Open and Australian are all huge events, as is Indian Wells, which I went to. But, you know, like, we're doing. This is funny. I took. For our, like, teaser website, my friend and I took a photo. I had this idea to fill a white Volvo station wagon with tennis balls. And we drove a car into my friend's studio and actually filled this car up with balls and took a photo. And another friend of mine was like, you know, you should really send this to Volvo. And so I did. I sent it to someone at marketing there, and they were like, wow, we love this. And it turns out they're the car sponsor on the Charleston Open, which happens starting this weekend, which is a professional women's tournament. So now we've stumbled into doing an activation with Volvo starting. I actually have to go fill another vintage Volvo with balls tonight.
- [53:46]
Lauren Sherman
So fun.
- [53:47]
Amanda Greeley
So we'll see how that goes. But I think. I think.
- [53:50]
Lauren Sherman
I don't.
- [53:50]
Amanda Greeley
This isn't a great answer, but I think there's a lot that can be done to kind of bring new experiences to these tournaments. And I think, like, brands that have an exciting point of view can. Can add things either to the tournaments themselves or in the city during the tournament that make people even more excited to attend them. And I think thinking about the intersection of travel and tennis is getting really interesting, too. And what inspires people to feel like they can pack their rackets when they go on vacation or to a different city. And so, again, not my smoothest answer, but I think you have to be thinking about how to show up, because it's a great opportunity for people to discover you at these events where you kind of have, like, a whole audience captive. Right. Of people who already love tennis. And so you're like, well, why not show up in a way to do something really cool and interesting that catches their attention?
- [54:42]
Lauren Sherman
Totally. And you mentioned it has become such a social thing in the last five years. Suddenly all these people I know are like, yes, I've always been obsessed with tennis. I'm like, really? But so many of my friends went to India. Well, so, yes, I live in LA now and that that affects it. But also, you know, Palm Desert, it's cool. And, and there are people who, you know, the US Open shore, everybody's trying to get in the Ralph Lauren box. But also Wimbledon and Roland. So many people I know went to Roland Garros last year. Like, there, it's, it does feel like, like, it just feels like it's the, it's. There's no monoculture, but this is, like, where the culture is right now. And it's a good.
- [55:31]
Amanda Greeley
And it also feels like people who go there, like, want more experiences and more opportunities, like, they're excited to go to the thing, but it's not like, it's not like everyone's maxed out at the cool thing to do once you get there. I think, like, your point about this sport and connection is really interesting. I think, like, at a, you know, the big brands often think about tennis. I think in an individual, like, you're out there by yourself way, because it is that at a professional level. But actually, for most adults who do this, it's actually quite social. And one thing that's different than something like running is, like, running, you're usually by yourself, but tennis, it's like you're showing up at the tennis courts. And like, even before I did this, people be like, well, where'd you get that skirt? Where? You know, like.
- [56:11]
Lauren Sherman
And I totally.
- [56:12]
Amanda Greeley
I had a really proud moment this morning, actually. I went and bought a coffee. I had tennis balls early this morning, and I have our shorts on now. And I had a really sweet girl follow me out of the coffee shop to ask where I got my shorts. And that was like, the first time I've had that kind of moment. So I was really happy about it. But I think there is this sort of, like, where did you get your outfit? Thing that happens in tennis that doesn't necessarily happen in other sports. And I think figuring out how to kind of take advantage of that could be clever.
- [56:40]
Lauren Sherman
Amanda, I really want to talk to you about the opportunity in golf because Sarah has something. Sarah Shapiro has something on Friday about the golf opportunity, but that's for another. Maybe that's an offline conversation because this is about Spence. This is about tennis. And thank you for being here. It was really fun Combo.
- [56:58]
Amanda Greeley
This was so fun. Thank you for doing this.
- [57:01]
Lauren Sherman
Fashion, People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producer, producers Puck, co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.
- [57:28]
Amanda Greeley
This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Today's the day. From Universal Pictures and Blumhouse come a storm of terror. From the director of the Shallows. The Woman in the Yard. Don't let her in. Where does she come from? What does she want? When will she leave? The Woman in the Yard in theaters now.