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- [00:00]
Melissa Benashai
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- [00:29]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Love you.
- [00:29]
Ian Schatzberg
Bye.
- [00:32]
Alma Representative
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- [01:28]
Ian Schatzberg
Foreign.
- [01:34]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show is Ian Schatzberg, founder of the creative agency General Idea. We're talking brands, brands, brands, good ones, bad ones, and why they still matter. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News FashionPeople to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. I hope you had a great week. First off, I'm sorry that Yossi and I did not discuss Chapel Roan's Yossi Salak. By the way, Chapel Rhones revealing Grammys dress on Tuesday's episode where we did Best and worst Grammys looks. People were very disappointed. A lot of people reached out to me about this. To that I would say we both just felt like, you know, she has a very nice body. Super jealous. Congrats to her on that. We were neutral to negative on the dress itself. I, I didn't think, I thought the silhouette was fine. It was just fine. We just didn't care. I don't, I don't know why. I do think she has a great body though. Anyway, in line sheet this week, Rachel Strugatz had an epic story on the trouble with Huda Kattan, the beauty star who has become an incredibly controversial character in recent years. And Sephora, one of her biggest retailers, is dealing with that. On Thursday, I looked at the future of Marc Jacobs, which was supposed to be bought by Authentic Brands Group for a billion dollars, but is now staying with LVMH and kind of talking about what that means. I also did a quick hit analysis on the product group announcement that Peter Mulier is joining versace. He searched July 1st. So more to come on that. I'll be in New York next week and I hope to see you somewhere. Sunday. Puck is throwing a Super bowl party with Oscar de la Renta and I'm hosting a bunch of other stuff later in the week, including a live taping of Fashion People on Wednesday. It is sold out. But we do have a wait list and if you. And it's not, It's a real wait list. This is not a joke. But if you want to go, if you want to come, email FritzandPuck News and at least we'll put you on the waitlist. I don't know what's gonna happen on Wednesday. Maybe the weather will be terrible. Maybe you live around the corner from where it is and it's easy for you and it's not gonna be easy for other people. So if you wanna come, we will put you on the wait list. But the wait list is real and we're not lying about it. Anyway, thanks to Starbucks for making that possible and more soon from them. But until then, let's get going with Ian. I love this conversation and I truly understand why people pay him the big bucks. I think you're going to like it too. It's all about empathy and high eq people. We'll talk soon. Ian Schatzberg, welcome to Fashion People.
- [04:50]
Ian Schatzberg
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on this gorgeous Los Angeles morning.
- [04:54]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Truly gorgeous. Gonna be in the 80s today. How lucky are we?
- [04:58]
Ian Schatzberg
We're very lucky. I know it's 85, I think. Exactly.
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Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Wow.
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Ian Schatzberg
Wow.
- [05:03]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
And 85 in California, people is really nice. It doesn't feel bad the way it does in New York City. Anyway, Pro, pro, Los Angeles on this pod. What'd you have for breakfast this morning?
- [05:15]
Ian Schatzberg
Well, I. This morning I had blueberries for breakfast because I'm now at that age of being super conscientious of longevity. So I've become a big blueberry and Greek yogurt connoisseur.
- [05:27]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
So you did have Greek yogurt for some protein? I was very.
- [05:30]
Ian Schatzberg
I did have some, yes. As I know we're in the protein, I have to make sure I get my weight in protein.
- [05:36]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
I went to, I did a checkup yesterday, and she was like, but do you eat enough protein? I was like, yes, yes.
- [05:43]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah. The protein industries, I think, are really behind this in a big way, because I think it's like, it's, you know, I find in the trash can in the house now my partner's protein potato chips. So it's like, yeah.
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Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Are they like the chicken ones?
- [05:58]
Ian Schatzberg
I have no idea. I just think it's amazing how they've really been able to turn every single food product into a protein vessel.
- [06:05]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Scary. I don't know what it's doing to our intestines. I don't want to know. That's my opinion. Ian, how did you get into branding and marketing? So you own this agency, General dia. We're going to talk about some of the stuff that you've done. I think you can speak to some of it. But you are sort of a brand whisperer. They like to say someone, like, behind the scenes, who every time I'm looking into a company, somehow I hear that you were involved in some rebrand or some positioning thing. But how did you get into this business? Because the way you were just talking about protein was like, very much of, from a brand marketer perspective.
- [06:48]
Ian Schatzberg
Well, you know, thanks. That's funny. I got into the business. Let's see. I, I, I, I sort of fell into the business. You know, I think I had a love for fashion and sort of emotional storytelling at a very young age. And what sort of, you know, my father was in the garment business, was he? Yeah, he's in the garment business, I guess you could say.
- [07:08]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
But you grew up in.
- [07:10]
Ian Schatzberg
I grew up in California, so my, my family was original and they were, you know, sort of 7th Avenue garmentos. And I actually had a huge sort of disdain for what they did because my father, you know, I'm super grateful now, but at the time, I Thought he was kind of a schmatzer king. And that for me was, you know, I was kind of. I didn't. He wasn't really on the art side. He was very much on the sort of fabric and production side. And so I sort of was reading all the vogues that he was. I then realized, sort of knocking off and. And I was sort of looking at these beautiful pictures and thinking, God, I wish. I wish my family could be on this side of the equation. But, you know, in hindsight, I'm very grateful what he was able to provide for us. But I started at a very young age sort of looking at clothing and fashion and. Go ahead.
- [08:00]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Can we talk a little bit more about that? Just because I didn't know that and my mouth is agape. I think it's interesting. My parents were in retail, so I think there is just something about. And I guess this is every business, but there's something about apparel that if you're like, it's in your blood, you can't escape it. But, like, what kind of. What kind of shmata was it? Like, kids clothes? Was it. Do you. Do you know any of the details?
- [08:24]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I know tons of the details. I mean, so my dad, fabrics. My dad started as a fabric salesperson. He. My family's from New York. They moved to California in the 70s. They lived in Los Angeles. It was kind of the golden era. And he went from being a fabric salesperson into a manufacturing role with one of the sort of what became in that sort of 80s, 90s and 2000s, one of the larger manufacturing sort of private label brands out of California. And so he was making private label clothing for Kohl's and JCPenney and Macy's and Dillard's and all these kind of, you know, American department stores. And they were supplying product for, you know, all ages. So they did Missy's and Juniors and kids. And so I really learned. I spent my weekends in the warehouse really looking at racks and racks of pants and racks of tops. And I used to always be kind of amazed because my dad could touch a. Touch a product and tell me exactly what it was constructed of. You know, 70 cotton, 30% Lycra. And, you know, he had a real sort of technical hand for the product, but he was definitely on the. On the sort of mass consumer side, mass kind of distribution side, dealing with the big department stores in America which since have heavily consolidated and sort of changed that business. And. And so, yeah, I got my hand at a very young age into the Kind of apparel side of manufacturing specifically.
- [09:51]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
And being based out in California, like, obviously there's a. Still a ton of manufacturing in California. People don't realize this, especially with denim and. And T shirts and cotton, things like that. And then also piecework. I remember going to a factory probably 10 years ago where Forever 21 was due. Before they were owned by Authentic Brands Group and all that stuff. They were doing a lot of their manufacturing here. And I remember reporting on factories in Queens and things that were doing Gap manufacturing not so long ago. But was there a moment, did your dad get out of the business and did he see that it was like all moving? Obviously while he was doing it, it moved mostly overseas. But I'm curious, like, did he. Did he get out or is he still, like, does he still have a hand in it?
- [10:40]
Ian Schatzberg
No, I mean, he. He retired last year at 71. So he, you know, they were able to. They sort of survived the consolidation of the department stores because sort of what took place was, you know, the history of my experience and listening to his journey with retail is really around big, big box consolidation. And it was like, kind of like fewer and fewer customers and more and more outsourcing of manufacturing. But they were able to really create a great business and a great life for myself and my brother, and he was able to kind of do it. I think the era of what they were doing specifically has kind of now ended. But, but, you know, for, for a moment there was, you know, he always said to me, he said there was an infinite amount of customers and actually at that junction, a limited amount of supply. So when, you know, in the, in this, in the 80s and the 90s, if you had a hand and you could understand supply chain, there were tons and tons of department stores and malls being built in America and there was just so much demand for apparel. So it really was a kind of buoyant time in the business. And, you know, fortunate to him he was able to kind of continue it. But for sure, I watched as the department stores consolidated the pressure that it put on their business as fewer and fewer customers exist. And of course, you know, manufacturing got much less expensive and it became flooded with other markets coming in.
- [12:01]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
It's really fascinating. So you, as you said, you were on. You're on the other side of things and also really on the brand side. So your dad's like dealing in brandless product in some cases. What attracted you to brand development? And also like, how did you get into the agency world? Because you worked at, I believe, Wednesday with Jens Greed and Eric torts towards Tencent.
- [12:28]
Ian Schatzberg
Correct.
- [12:30]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
For a while. And that's like sort of where you cut your teeth. But tell me how you ended up in like brand development and in the agency world. Because it's so particular.
- [12:38]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah, no, it's, it's so. So it probably does all stem a little bit from that experience with my family. And I didn't think we would start on that front, but from with my dad and I think, like, because the manufacturing side of what they were in was so influenced by what was taking place with the fashion at large. Of course, I was just surrounded with. I used to open the trunk of my father's car when I was little and it would be littered with fashion magazines. And when they used to print wwd, there would just be, you know, hundreds and hundreds. The whole trunk was just full of them. So I was just reading this stuff all the time and interested in it. But for sure I was interested in like the side of the business that was about emotion and story and, and brand and sort of like the irrational side, you know, not the side that was like cut from supply chain and production, but like, why would people desire something really irrationally and how this industry is so amazing at creating irrational desire around these items. And so I did not want to go into the kind of, you know, I knew I wanted to be kind of in the, in the category at large, but I sort of fell into the branding side. And actually I started first and foremost as a web designer and I was designing websites for like, Marc Jacobs's first website, Tom Ford's first website. I mean, I remember getting on a.
- [14:02]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Phone call, just create the group.
- [14:03]
Ian Schatzberg
Correct, correct.
- [14:04]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
It was like, oh, yeah, I know. Create the group.
- [14:07]
Ian Schatzberg
I was at Create the Group. I met them when I moved to New York at a holiday party. I emailed the founders and said, I really want to work with you. And I became very close with them and they sort of like, you know, set me out into the field. And I was doing, you know, when Angela Arendt was at Burberry and. Yeah, and Tom Ford was doing his first website and he wanted it to look like his whole. All of his references, to be honest, were like porn sites. He was like, I just want this to feel like a high speed porn site. And I was like, okay. Like, I had no idea. I was literally out of university. But it was, it was kind of amazing. And it was the frontier. And I was designing these sites and I was kind of immersed in it. And then I thought to myself, you know, I sort of saw the Limitations, A little bit of just being on the pure E Comm side and thought to myself, I wonder what it's like to really work on the branding side. And I happened to meet Erik Torstenson and Jens Greed through a friend. They were super, super young at the time. I mean, we were all really, really young. And they were kind of just, you know, they were not starting out on their venture, but it was the early side of their venture. And I remember meeting them, I had broken my knee and I had a full leg cast on. But I said, God, you guys have this magazine industry. I love this magazine so much. Can I just work for you? And they said, sure, but we have no office in New York. And I said, it doesn't really matter. I just want to work for you. I think you guys are so at the sort of intersection of. At the time, what was like a new idea of like, fashion and pop culture or fashion and entertainment? You know, they were really brilliant about seeing where the industry was going in that regard. So I got into branding and spent a long time working with them across a host of clients before I left, the business was sold and I left to start my own company, General Idea. But it was. It was really an amazing kind of experience at that particular moment. That was 2000, probably in 10 or 2011 when I started with them, and I stayed with them for about seven years before I left.
- [15:59]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Yeah, so that was sort of as fashion, as pop culture peaked. Because if you could say the peak was like 2017, 2018, you could argue that. And they were working with everyone. They were working with Montclair, Calvin Klein, LVMH brands. What did you learn about how to make fashion feel like pop culture?
- [16:22]
Ian Schatzberg
I mean, I think basically at the time, like, over. Over the course of doing that agency, like at the onset of it, it was this kind of convergence of, like, now what has become so commonplace of like, fashion as a vehicle for entertainment was still really like a nascent idea. Like, I remember sort of like when we were working on H and M work with Lana Del Rey and Beyonce, it was still kind of like the early days of thinking about the intersection between, like, celebrity and the world of fashion. And I think like when Justin Bieber did Calvin Klein. I mean, obviously Calvin Klein has a long history of working with celebrity, but it all felt like they're like the. The way in which the category operated was almost like bifurcated, which was like you had sort of like high European fashion, which was very art director led and very sort of like classical almost in Its approach to sort of like photographers and fashion models and image making. And then you sort of saw that like, you know, as social became more prominent in our lives, everybody had a window onto this world. And we used to say it's like you're not really competing anymore with fashion houses, you're really just competing with Netflix. And that was like still, I mean that was still pretty early. I think now people would say, yeah, I totally agree with it. But I think at the time that thesis was, was still pretty radical that like you could choose to spend your time watching God knows what the show of that time was Homeland or something, or you could choose to go onto YouTube or Instagram and watch fashion content. And I think that sort of like access that these platforms created really shaped the brands more towards how do we really tell entertaining stories and bring popular culture into the brand in a larger way, in a way that also made them much more accessible to a customer who was maybe not a fashion engaged customer. So kind of like the sort of emergence of celebrity culture within fashion and kind of almost like the opening up of the, of the aperture of what the industry was allowed to participate in was really taking place because essentially everybody was starting to tune in. And that was, that was exciting. At the time, I mean, I think we were, we were just thinking about casting and content and film in a way that was a little bit closer to what would it look like if it was coming out of Hollywood. And you know, it was a great one run and as you said, we got to work with amazing brands on it and the thesis felt very novel. Now I think everybody participates in this way. I mean, I think the whole marketing and branding landscape within fashion has become basically akin to. These brands are like Hollywood studios and they're producing films and you know, I don't mean just a film like as in a show. I mean like every season is a filmic production of content and story and, and I think the category is totally there. But it wasn't always, you know, and I think at that time we were really switched onto it.
- [19:24]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
One more question about that era of your life. Did Victoria's Secret come up a lot? Because I just, just thinking about the fact that they did, they live streamed. First of all, they made the Runway show into media and that was a sort of example of taking from high fashion and making it into something mass. But they live streamed their first show in 2000 and just thinking about Jens ending up being a co founder and CEO of Skims and Victoria's Secret was like the first brand to really do that, like think of a brand as media or a consumer brand of media. I don't know if it. I'm just curious because I know that Jens interviewing him so many times over the years, he thinks a lot about Victoria or he thought a lot about Victoria when they were building skims in terms of growth and, and things like that. Just curious if it was ever a reference point for you all or you talked about it or, or was it like too far in the past to really relate it to what was happening then because it was irrelevant by the time you all really got going.
- [20:30]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah, I don't know if it was like. I don't know if it was like a heavily discussed reference point. I mean we were definitely like. It definitely came up at junctions with, with Eric and Jens. I think the thing, the thing I think that was fascinating was I think that like the Americans were actually really, you know, because the Americans didn't come from savoir faire craft kind of background. They, they really had to build these marketing concepts in order to sort of export these ideas to the world. And so I think that like the Americans, plus more of this sort of like contemporary, accessible price point brands were quicker to move this way. So I think like Victoria's Secrets, you know, H and M, obviously Swedish, but still kind of like playing at a fast price point. It was like they sort of had to take the codes of fashion and popularize them in a much bigger way. So I think like whether that was like all the celebrity collaborations that H and M pioneered at the time and sort of bringing fashion to popular culture in that regard or what Victoria Secrets did with kind of like a high fashion expression made relevant for the American population in the world at a broader capacity. I think the reference points that we often looked at or that I think the things that we often got traction with were actually these kind of more excessively price point brands that were trying to think about like, well, how do you take these codes and export them in the biggest way possible? And that's not just going to be like the picture, but it's going to be the idea of like we're going to turn these concepts into media machines and we're going to really, you know, produce at a high level because we need to talk to the widest amount of people possible. And now I think the high fashion brands are sort of pressured to talk to the widest amount of people as possible as well. And they're sort of, they've adopted this behavior. But I really think this idea of Fashion and entertainment kind of came from more of the popularly priced companies that need it to sort of figure out, like, how do we touch as many people as possible with our content and be as broad reaching as we as we possibly can be. So I think, you know, Victoria Secrets was among one of those, I think, in that price positioning and that category, that was like a reference point in terms of the mediafication and the entertainment theseses that were running through businesses.
- [22:44]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Yeah, it's interesting from your perspective because you need to have the sensitivity to understand that bit of it. And then also the way the Europeans think about things, which is they lead with creativity, it all kind of comes back to the same thing, but they lead with a different intention. And so as a person who's working from the outside in with a lot of these brands, it must require a ton of like, EQ to be able to communicate to them why they need to do this and how on both sides.
- [23:24]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah, I mean, I think the goal of a great marketing and branding agency is to help really sort of be highly sensitive to the truth of the brand that you're working with and help them to sort of achieve the biggest reach and relevance they can possibly achieve is to help tell their story at the largest scale that they have permission to tell it. And I think the thing that I find so interesting about the business and kind of why I love it is that, like, it just requires a hypersensitivity to the codes of the brand you're working with and the people that you're working with. Because there is no one way, I think, especially now, to export your message and to touch people. And I think in a lot of ways, like, what's taken place in the marketing and branding, you know, industry is like, you know, it's become highly complex now, obviously, because, like, if you rewind, you know, to the sort of traditional Mad Men era of this category, like it was, you know, brand designer, art director, print output. Now you just have so many different channels to tell your story, and there's so many different ways to behave in terms of how you connect with people that I think the. The goal of, of firms such as myself or kind of the work that I do is to really help understand, like, what is the truth of the story you want to tell and your brand codes and what are the mediums that are going to most powerfully communicate that. And that is no longer, I think, like, oh, you know, we do a show and we make. We make an ad campaign. I think it's like, it's everything from you know, we make a miniseries to, we work with influencers to. We have this crazy pop up strategy. Like, and I think there's no one size fits all behavior for any business. Certain businesses achieve, I think, emotional connection with their customers through very, very different modes of behavior. And it makes, I think, the job of kind of unearthing how to tell that story intriguing, but also very difficult because it's not like we just kind of funnel everything into predefined mediums anymore.
- [25:27]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Yeah. And I assume that a lot of the executives working at these companies are very uncreative and risk averse, even though, like this might be the time to take the biggest risks because everything is sort of up in the air. But what I've found with a lot of executives in fashion is that they kind of just do what everyone else. If they see, they see one celebrity is popping for a brand or seems like they're popping for a brand, they want to work with them. There's not a lot of, let's see what's right for us. Is a lot of your work kind of being like, you have to do this differently. Kind of telling them that they need to be brave and do things differently if they want to be effective.
- [26:15]
Ian Schatzberg
I mean, I think we talk about the idea of bravery so much because it is so hard to be, I think, brave, especially when you have sort of the macro as it is and the pressure on these kinds of executives. But I think the thing is, I think it's about sort of being brave and searching for repeatable behaviors that are true to your business. So I think it's like, I think what everyone is trying to find is like, again, what are the formats that make most sense to tell their story? So for instance, it's like, you know, Ralph Lauren is amazing at world building. Like, I would argue that like most people don't really. Ralph Lauren's not really an advertising driven company. It's really like a world building driven company. So like the campaigns, quote unquote, that Ralph produces, I would argue are not really what, like they're, it's not the tip of the pyramid for their behavior. I think, you know, what they did for Christmas and the pop up strategy around Christmas, it's like environments and the world building dimension of bringing physical theater to life is the repeatable formula that builds emotional connection within the Ralph universe. So it's like that's what they do so exceptionally well. And so I think like when they stage these massive Christmas kind of pop ups and everyone on the Internet decodes them and is obsessed with them. It's because they're kind of leaning into their truth, which is like, I don't think you see Ralph Lauren going and making filmic celebrity driven advertising because it's not their truth. It's like they're world builders. And so they use the physical domain to really tell their story in the most profound way possible. And so I think really the sort of endeavor often is kind of looking for, you know, what is the, what is your X factor in terms of how you build that emotional connection around the product and then how do you kind of export that? And I think that's just the complexity. And, and yes, of course, I think executives, like, kind of go to maybe where the, the trough is. But I think the, the goal is to sort of like be firm and figure out, like, how do you, how do you bring your truth to the market in the most compelling way possible? And so I think those are just anecdotal examples, I think of like two radically different behaviors, you know, that work for those businesses.
- [28:27]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
It's interesting. It's bringing me back to a question. It's, it's sort of an aside. And then I want to ask a bigger question about brand. But both of those brands I are, are fascinating and, and we could talk about them for each dedicate, like multiple podcasts to them. Someone needs to do a series on each of them. But the point being the Runway show. Cause I was thinking about Ralph in particular, and you're talking about the print campaigns. And it's true, like, they've had some good polo campaigns in recent years, but it's not like, damn, that campaign was amazing. Like the Versace campaign the other day.
- [29:04]
Ian Schatzberg
Correct.
- [29:05]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
It's not about that. It's about this going to the store or when you go to a Ralph Lauren fashion show. What it's really about is if they're gonna remake Ralph's in whatever venue or they've had fashion shows at Ralph's. And it's about Ralph's. It's about the Polo Lounge, the Polo Club. Is it the Polo. No, the Polo Bar. Sorry. Yeah, it's about the Polo Bar. You know, it's not about, it's about remaking the Polo Bar or Ralph's or what have you. I was in Paris for Thanksgiving one year and we went to Ralph's for Thanksgiving. Like that was the thing that we would do. Not even talking about those brands in particular. Do you think Runway shows for these very large brands or for any brands really, like, do you think they all need to be Doing Runway shows?
- [29:51]
Ian Schatzberg
No, no, I, I, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a great question. I think it's like, I think that. No, I honestly think the answer is, is no to that. Because I think that like, again, I think it's about sort of like, and it sounds like, I don't mean to, for it to sound like vague, but I think it's like if it's the, if it's like the core DNA and the truth of your brand to, to put on a Runway show, I think that is like, then it makes sense. So it's like, I look at like, you know, the European houses and it's like there is history and heritage to the Runway show and there is a built in audience that is fashion inclined and interested in those shows, and therefore they are culturally relevant as a result of the history that they have producing and creating those moments. I think other brands that dabble in them do not have the equity in the show. It's not what the customer sort of inherently looks for in what they're doing. And that doesn't mean they can't do it. But I think it's about again, sort of like finding the permission set that you have as a business in the customer's mind as well and then leaning into that. So I think, like, I talk about this a lot with American brands because I think obviously the American Runway has kind of its challenges. But it's like, I think that, you know, I don't think that the, when Celine debuts the new Runway show, you have a global audience that is like inherently interested in that. You have a fashion inclined customer who is looking to see what's coming down that Runway. I think the American brands don't have the legacy and the history of producing those shows and the customer is not inherently there. So I think actually they're fighting an uphill battle to drive awareness into a vehicle of storytelling that the customer is not, is not naturally inclined to engage with them in. So like, you can do it for sure, but I just think it's like, it's not going to be a glide because you're, you're trying to ask your consumer to engage with you in a format that they don't naturally engage that brand in. And that's what I think a little bit about this idea of like going to your truth and trying to build something that's like, that you have an X factor to deliver against. And so, yeah, I think the answer to your question is like, I think they serve a role for the brands that have the Right. Permission to do it. And I think they serve less of a role for the brands that don't.
- [32:17]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Yeah. It's so fascinating because even though they're all about marketing now, none of them are actually for the trade. They need to be rooted in the idea that they served a purpose at one point. And nowhere was that clearer than Couture, where they still do serve a purpose. And it was the first time that I was at Couture that I was really paying attention to the Vic's and how they are doing those shows. For the Vic's, of course there is marketing involved and it's important. And I think, honestly, more than ever there. WWD had a story about trends at Couture. I was like, who has trends at Couture? It's so fascinating. But the reality of it is, like, that's a business. It might not be a $10 billion business, but it's a real business. And so the validity makes it feel better from a marketing perspective. So it's like getting to that truth. The question I wanted to ask you, that's a bigger picture question, and it parallels. I interviewed the comms guy, Jesse Darris. I don't know. He probably would be annoyed that I called him a comms guy, but this morning, and his. His episode's going to. Your episode's running this week. His episode's gonna run in a few weeks. Cause it's very evergreen. I feel like yours is good because we're about to go into New York Fashion Week. But the thing we talked about and the conversations are different but parallel is the idea of brand. And you sent me this incredible. You're basically notes of what you were interested in chatting about, which was so helpful and much more prep than I ever do. And I'm grateful. But you said the brand renaissance. And I'm just curious, like, the thing I said to Jesse and anyone who listens to this should listen to the Jesse episode too. I think they're complimentary. But if you do a survey of any generation, like, one survey is going to say, this generation isn't brand loyal. Whatever. The next survey is going to say, this generation is more brand loyal than ever. As a. As a brand marketer, like, does brand matter long term? Is there brand loyalty? Are brands going to last as long? Like, what is your philosophy around brand?
- [34:35]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah, I mean, I think that brands are basically vessels and symbols of meaning that people carry. And I think that brands are as old as time. I mean, I think that, like, the nature of the. Of the human experience is about Signs and signals and adorning yourself with things that are, that communicate something about who you are. You know, I think like someone was asking me the question the other day, like, is picture making going to be as relevant in the era of AI? And I said, I said every generation, I think every era deals with its kind of upheaval and, and sort of, you know, it's like with it was the printing press or the camera. It's like it sends us into a moment of kind of crisis. But at the end of the day, I think like we've been putting symbols on the walls and caves and brands are basically like, that is human nature is to sort of like adorn ourselves and to project meaning. And so I think brands are as relevant as they'll always be. And I sometimes when I read these, like, they're less loyal and they're so and so it's like, I think people search for meaning in what they build around them and that brands basically are the super layer above the object that communicate a story. And I think that is like, fundamental to the human experience. So I don't really pay attention to a lot of the, like, Gen Z doesn't really care about brands and it's all, it's like, I think that like we are creatures of storytelling and brands are the, are the vessel for that. So that's my, that's my thought on, on brand, you know, and I think Bran has evolved and changed in the way in which that story is kind of constructed. But I think at the end of the day it's about a super layer around something that is like, potent.
- [36:24]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
How do you get that message across when the like, communication tools are so fragmented? You can be on TikTok, you can be on Instagram, you can be on YouTube. The, the example I guess is that there are all these like YouTube creators that none of us have ever heard of that have like 4 billion followers and you know, yeah, 10, 10 million dollar business or, or $100 million businesses selling burgers that like, I've never seen this person's face.
- [36:56]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah, I mean it's a. I think that is kind of like the question of the moment for marketers is like, how do you do that? But I think like, it does kind of come back to like, fundamental truths of like, what that brand represents in its most potent form. So like, I think a lot like I had the privilege of working for many, many, many years with Remo Raffini at Montclair for about almost like, I don't know, decade and, and we And I think he was, you know, he's such an amazing brand builder, but, like, he would really talk a lot about the mountain. Like, the mountain and the role of the mountain is this kind of, you know, mythical symbol that sits at the center of Montclair. And I think, like, that is very, very powerful as an idea. And I think, you know, paying homage to the mountain, which I think they do so incredibly well, and go back to. And go back to all the time. When you see their most recent campaign, Warmer, together, it's really about, like, friendship and relationships, and it doesn't feel like inherently connected to the idea of the mountain, but they are so good, I think, at like, reminding you about this kind of mythology of winter and. And wrapping everything kind of around that. That even when they play outside of that, they still kind of bring you back to the core of their brand. And I think that the best brands, again, are really centered on those kind of those truths and those fundamentals. And so, like, yes, you need to have your, like, TikTok and influencer strategy and you need to kind of like, think about how that works with your seasonal collection layer. But I think the brands that are the strongest really kind of always find a way to go back to what is the fundamental core that we are going that is, like, mythical about us. Whether that's like, the idea of the American dream or, you know, with Ralph, or the idea of the mountain with Montclair, or, you know, it's. It's funny, I worked for a very. A long time with Swarovski and Giovanna as they kind of rebrand Swarovski and. And so much of what we talked about there at the center of that rebrand was imagination because, like, the fundamental truth of Crystal was its imaginative capability that, like, you could create these amazing things with it at an. At something that felt very decorative and excessive almost at time, but was highly accessible because of the material that it sort of allows you to imagine in the biggest way possible. And like, when you look at that work, like, imagination is really at the core, I think, of where she took that brand and wonderment and I think those, like, again, it's almost like what I was saying about the cave paintings. Not to sound philosophical, but, like, those are sort of fundamental things that I think, like, people recognize, like the power of wonder, the power of the mountain, the power of the American dream. And I think the brands that are the most successful always kind of ladder back up to those truths.
- [39:46]
Emma (Warby Parker Ad)
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- [40:17]
Emma Greed
Greed, host of Aspire with Emma Greed, a podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. From culture shaping voices like Mel Robbins, to leaders redefining success like Tracee Ellis Ross, to game changing entrepreneurs like Mark Cuban, Aspire is about mindset, ambition and doing the work that actually moves the needle. If you're ready to raise your standards and take charge about the life and career you're building, Aspire is where you start, follow and listen to Aspire Fire with me, Emma Greed and Odyssey podcast available wherever you get your podcasts.
- [40:49]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
I want to go through a couple stock market success stories of the past few years and get your take on how the marketing has either been like integral to it or, or maybe not at all or reflective of it. But maybe we could start with Abercrombie, because I think Abercrombie was in its 1990s iteration. It was all about brand and all about this idea of really clearly understanding what it was. You either loved it or hated it, but you knew what it was. And Sarah Shapiro had a piece this week about sort of what comes up must come down. And of course they had a huge boom and now they're recalibrating for a new normal. But the huge boom Abercrombie had in the last few years was ignoring their past and deciding that we're just going to make stuff based on TikTok trends, like almost like a boutique version of H and M or something. Or Zara, what do you think about that kind of approach and like as a brand marketer? Because the story there is that the CMO and the chief product officer, the chief merchandiser, the product person and the marketer were really close. They worked in tandem. But that to me is like an anti brand brand story. I'm curious what you think about it.
- [42:14]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah, it's fascinating. I knew right when you were kind of leading there that that was the brand you were going to bring up because I've been watching it and following it and I think like you know, it's kind of amazing. I remember way back in the day going to the Abercrombie campus kind of at the end of the Mike Jeffries era and sort of, and seeing the campus that they built and, and then sort of watching the revolution that took place there. Exactly. I think it was like an anti brand. But I have, I have two thoughts on it. One is, I think it, I think that there is, look, there's oxygen in the market, I think for speed trend and digital native content that basically just meets a consumer demand at the time. I think that Abercrombie has totally capitalized on that and has done an amazing job. Exactly as you say about the connectivity between hitting the right product, distributing it through the right sort of TikTok channels and getting in front of a younger customer and that drove their business. I think that it is, doesn't drive infinite growth, long term growth because I think it, I felt it was going to stall out that formula. Like I don't, I wouldn't put my chips on the fact that there is longevity in that model because I think it is so dependent upon a sort of narrow lane of operating between digital influencer and product that it doesn't sort of offer a globally expansive kind of worldview that allows it to continue to kind of scale. And I, and I've been wondering when Abercrombie would kind of hit that moment because I think, you know, back in the day, I think Abercrombie and maybe, you know, I don't, I know their business from afar but not intimately. Like I think back in the day when you know, at its zenith, Abercrombie could sell you anything. They could sell you fragrances, they could have sold you, they could have sold you homewares. They could, they could have sold anything. I mean it was so, it was so powerful that, that kind of worldview that they had built. Now I think Abercrombie can sell you very accessibly priced sort of fast fashion apparel and, and I don't know how that kind of grows into like the next layer of their, of their world because it's a kind of finite zone of operating. So I had kind of thought that that model would reach its potential ceiling. And I kind of think Abercrombie is now faced with a sort of question around like what does brand now mean again for them in a way that is not just speed to market, digital influencer approach?
- [44:48]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Do you think that they end up going back?
- [44:50]
Ian Schatzberg
Yes.
- [44:51]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
And trying to reach.
- [44:52]
Ian Schatzberg
I think they have a brand problem. I think they have to actually figure out now how to restitch an emotional brand layer into their business. I think, look, they've been hugely successful, so I. So I give them tons of credit for that success. But I think it's like, I don't think it. I think they need to re examine now how does the logo become a bigger symbol of meaning that people want to aspire to and, and not just trade on speed and accessible. And I think I actually kind of like give Aritzia. I think Aritzia is kind of amazing in the sense that I think that they play a similar game with trend speed to market digital influencer. But I think they have increasingly built a brand layer on top of it that kind of has. You know, I would put them in a similar zone as Abercrombie, but I would argue that the trajectory of their brand development is stronger. There's a stronger sensibility in it. And I think women kind of, you know, there's, there's cachet to wearing a super puff jacket or the Aritzia logo in a way that I don't think there is with Abercrombie.
- [45:58]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
It's really fascinating. Abercrombie call Ian. Just kidding. I don't think you have time. Let's go through. There are two other ones I wanted to talk about Burberry, which is very early in its sort of revolution. Repositioning or. I don't know if repositioning is the right word, but like positioning and their campaigns have a lot of people ask me about them and ask me to write about them. I've heard people in the UK say that their sort of video campaigns since the refresh with the kind of return to being an outerwear brand and really focusing on that. Someone said they're like Waitrose commercials, which to me is a compliment, but it's very British, very British humor. Even the sort of. The way the video looks, the lighting, that type of thing, it feels like Marx and Spencer's Waitrose. Very, very, very British. And I like that and understand it. But I'm curious, like, looking at the sort of map that they're creating there, what do you think of how they're approaching brand communication? Because it was so muddled for so long.
- [47:13]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah. So I love what you said there about it feeling like a waitress commercial. I mean, I think that's so great and I love it. You know, I think you could. You. I think it's. I think what Josh Shulman and. And Jeremy have done there is. I'm huge fans of theirs. I think, you know, I really give Josh a tremendous amount of props and had the privilege of working with him in other instances. But I think, first and foremost, Burberry is a great example of, like, I think what they've done is return to their truth. You know, I think it's always Burberry Weather as the kind of tagline that they created and building the brand world around, kind of doing the kind of reboot of the business. Going back to the truth of the product and outerwear and going back to the truth of the brand of Britishness in weather is kind of, I think, a perfect alignment between product and brand marketing. And I think the. I think they've done a fantastic job at kind of working at all levels of the funnel. So I think they have great video that's basically commercials that they are now producing down to sort of mid funnel and lower funnel, like, video touch, like just sort of impressionistic video vibes about Britishness and kind of British humor. And I think the thing about. I've heard. I've heard my British friends say, oh, we don't really love it. And I think the reality is, is Burberry's not selling to the British. You know, if that's what they were doing, it'd be a much smaller business. And I think what they have done is. Is that they've kind of done a little bit of what we were talking about at the onset of this, around kind of the Victoria's Secret model in regard to. They've kind of taken the. The truth of their brand and they've tried to export it to the widest audience as possible. So they've leaned into tropes that are inherently British, but not so British that you don't understand it. So the Big Ben, the night, the Christmas dinner, like, we as Americans can digest that, even if we've never even been to Britain, because they're kind of playing a little bit with cliche, but they're doing it in a tasteful way. And I think that you have to do that at some point scale because you have to walk the line between being totally accessible to people so they understand it while also staying elevated. And so I. I think it is kind of a perfect case study in people who. Art director friends of mine said before they did the rebrand, they really loved the first Burberry campaigns, which were shot up in the north, but they were almost like campaigns for art directors. I would say to them, like, of course you. Of course you love it. They're like art director campaigns that are highly stylistic, intended for a Niche audience. And I think now what they've done with their coding of Britishness is kind of made that idea as accessible as possible. And so the Brits might say, hey, it's a little cliche because I don't really want to see tropes of my own culture served to me on a platter. It's silly, but I think to the world we're like, wow, that's so cool. Like, I want to have a British holiday. And I would argue that, like, I was having this discussion with an LVMH executive on Friday who we were talking about one of the French houses and he was saying, you know, if you've spent time in Paris, you know, it looks nothing like what we're exporting to the world as an idea of Paris. In fact, most Parisians don't want to walk around in Taurus filled restaurants, tranching on the streets, standing in front of the Eiffel Tower with a million people taking pictures of it or in front of. You know. But what we are creating is a little bit of an Emily, like Emily in Paris, like, depiction of Paris to sell to the world. And I actually thought that was so brilliant. Which is like, the best marketers are close to the truth, but understand how to export it in a way that is accessible to the widest populace, to the world. So I would argue, like, Burberry's rebrand is a little bit like the Emily in Paris of Britishness. And yeah, it's going to tick some people off because it's. You could argue it, but actually I think it really works. And I think where brands trip themselves up is, is they actually get too much inside of their own head and there's too much of a focus on. Well, it has to be cool or it has to be intellectual. But really the things that work at scale have to be kind of a reduction of an essence to something that is broad.
- [51:35]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
It's interesting because I think this is a key to why Celine seems to be working. Because it is toeing the line between being a cliche of what like a Parisian dress is like and actually what a Parisian dress is like. And so all the people in Europe I talk to really like it. A lot of French people like it. They're into it. Cause it has an Americaness because Michael comes from. It's like an. It's like the Spiegel catalog in France or something. It's. I love the. But it's an interesting. And obviously this isn't. That's not a $10 billion brand. It's a 3 billion or whatever. But there is. It's really toeing the line between being a cliche and the people who are the cliche enjoying it or what have you.
- [52:24]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I think it's a really hard line. It's really hard to walk that line. I would say it's one of the hardest things to kind of. To define that. And I think oftentimes when I work with businesses, it's like the hardest thing to do is to get to a simple is. Is to really reduce and really reduce into something I think that people can digest. And I think that fashion is an industry that like, revels in the complexity and the intellectualism of it. But I think these brands are very, very big and they need to kind of find those. They need to find those expressions. So I think whether it's Burberry or what you say about Celine, like, they are kind of walking. That they are kind of walking in that space. Prada does not. We always say Prada is one of the few brands that can. That walks in complexity and does it at scale. And it's kind of amazing that they can achieve that. But I think they're really an outlier.
- [53:17]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
And do you think that's because that's true to their brand? She is a complex person.
- [53:22]
Ian Schatzberg
Correct thinking. Fashion, I think, you know, I think that's one of the best lines ever. They don't talk. It's like on their Instagram. And I think it's so genius. But the truth of it is, is, is it is a brand about complexity. And I think it's one of the few that works at scale in that regard.
- [53:43]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
What do you think about. I. I've been writing about this a bit. This sort of idea that fashion imagery, especially at the higher end, where the standards. There's like higher standards or different standards for fashion. Marketing has become too referential, too using the same photographers, too uncreative. I think the Steven Meisel Versace, and I'm so. I want to hear what you thought of the Steven Meisel Versace campaign. Because what I thought was amazing about that campaign, and you might be able to articulate this better than me, was that Steven Meisel was shooting versace in the 90s and forever ago. He's one of these photographers who is not. Is very in demand. Doesn't work as much as like a David Sims or a Jurgen Teller or whatever. He's less. He's. I don't want to say pickier, but just not as available. But the campaign that they did for Dario Batali's first and last collection was very much inspired by an Avedon campaign, versace campaign from 1982. That was like a pile up of people, which I also thought the 1982 one must have been so interesting with, like, AIDS was just, like, coming to be. And there's like, a pile up of humans on this campaign of this Italian brand that's, like, very. It's interesting. But back to. He clearly was referencing that. And yet. And all these campaigns that come out now are just like references of old campaigns and blah, blah, blah. And yet it felt, like, so emotional and alive, and I don't know if it'll end up being the best campaign of the season, but for me, it was like, wow, this campaign. And it once again made me think. I can't believe he's not. He's done there. But I'm curious as a marketer, what you thought of it and if it was. If you felt it was as effective as it felt like to me.
- [55:36]
Ian Schatzberg
Can I ask you a question back?
- [55:38]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Yeah.
- [55:39]
Ian Schatzberg
Why do you think they shot three campaigns?
- [55:42]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
You mean what the young designer thinks?
- [55:44]
Ian Schatzberg
They released three campaigns at once. So it was Frank Le Bon, Steven Meisel, and there was another one, and they all came out on the same day. Yes, but you're keying into the Meisel pictures.
- [55:55]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
But there was three.
- [55:56]
Ian Schatzberg
There's three campaigns that all launched at.
- [55:59]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
The same time that I think had to do with. There was something. I was. I was with an executive yesterday for lunch who said that. That she thought that it was interesting that they were layering in younger photographers. And then there was also the stuff that came out a few weeks ago with, like, that young female photographer. And that stuff is not part of this campaign. It's supposed to be, like, in conversation. I forget what they called it.
- [56:30]
Ian Schatzberg
Conversations or something.
- [56:31]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Yeah. Yes. I don't know. The Mizel one is the thing that.
- [56:36]
Ian Schatzberg
That got me.
- [56:38]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Yeah.
- [56:38]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah. I mean, to be honest.
- [56:40]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Please.
- [56:41]
Ian Schatzberg
I don't have a strong opinion on it. I thought it was. I thought the. I thought it was an arresting picture, but. And I think he's an. I think he's an incredible talent. And I really like the Runway. Fine. That's kind of how I felt.
- [56:56]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Interesting.
- [56:57]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah. Fine. Okay.
- [57:01]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
I think maybe the emotion is around all the drama around what's going on with him. And if you're. If you're. If you're able to compartmentalized, like many men are.
- [57:14]
Ian Schatzberg
I'm a very emotional person, but. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I. Yeah, I don't know, well, I, I really, I like his, I like his work a lot. So I, I don't say it because I have again, I think he's, he's. I think what he, he achieved and, and not to go into the kind of industry talk around it, but like going there and kind of knowing maybe what he knew and all that stuff. I thought he was a really brave. And like, I think what, what an amazing kind of character to go out and now everybody knows his name. Even if it was potentially tumultuous and there was writing on the wall that they had other. Who knows? But I don't know. Yeah, the camp, the Meisel thing, I thought it was super nice left, you know, I, I don't think it had that. I actually am like, I didn't really think about the original picture in the context of AIDS and how powerful that must have been. And when you made that comment, I thought to myself, wow, I imagine, yeah, that must have been really charged. I really have a hard time seeing an image to. In today's media landscape as something that is like, makes me highly emotional or highly engaged. I just don't like when I saw it on Instagram, I thought, yeah, cool. And then I kind of, I kind of moved on and, and maybe it just like where I was at that moment. But I think it's so hard, I think now for, for brands to make imagery in the way that imagery used to cut through. So I think that like, whether it's referential or not referential, I think that like a picture, a standalone picture does not have the power of what it historically had it. And I think that like, so it left me feeling like, really cool. Want to see where he goes with this? You know.
- [58:55]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
So do you think that brands spend too much money hiring these big photographers and focusing on the end celebrities and focusing on these campaigns when there is all this other stuff going on, that they should be like, using their resources.
- [59:11]
Ian Schatzberg
In different ways in many cases, I think so. I think that, like, I think the future of image making is video. And I think the future art directors that will be kind of, you know, we'll talk about now will be people that are somewhat like impressionistic video makers who can brand a company through the lens of short film and sort of like, you know, like, that's sort of like. I think the feed and content now is like in flickers of moving, of moving images and worlds. And I think that like, it's very hard for a picture to build that in its entirety. And so I'm much More interested in brands that that kind of brings multiple levels of sensibilities through video to kind of world build on an ongoing basis versus saying here is the campaign and here is the picture. You know, I think I'm super interested in like the Jonathan Anderson rebrand and I think what Jonathan and Jenny have done there and kind of, and the world building, kind of all the qualities of it, albeit less video based, is super intriguing to me. But I don't think that like the, the single image has the power. And I think one of the things that I think businesses really struggle with is like everybody has finite dollars. And I kind of love to get into this discussion with marketers and businesses because I think the costs associated with producing those pictures is still so significant that it really, you really have to decide where you're going to lay your chips down. And I don't know if going out and spending now at the level on those singular assets get you the world building kind of texture that is kind of needed now for these companies to exist on an ongoing basis. I think it's kind of a old school model which will never go away, especially at the high fashion level because the picture will always be very important. But I have a hard time ever saying, yeah, this picture changed my relationship. It really grabbed my attention like I want to. It's just not the way I think we engage in the world that we engage now as a, as a waterfall of lots of things coming to us.
- [61:23]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Yeah. I think that Jonathan, Jonathan's approach of the kinds of people he casts in things, whether it's look, Tim Blanks or Margarita Missoni in a lookbook or something, or Sue Kroll in a low EBIT campaign that adds something of like there's a reason to think about it.
- [61:40]
Ian Schatzberg
Correct. There's a world there. You feel all this, these like inputs, inputs, inputs, inputs, inputs. And I think in a world where you scroll your phone, literally whatever they were, like where television is your iPhone, it's all about a series of constant sort of inputs and character building. And that I think is like the opposite of singular image creation. So anyways, that's not my comment on Versace. Maybe more philosophical about just like media. But you know, kudos to Dario and all he's done for sure.
- [62:13]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Yeah. Yes, it's fabulous. So this has been so fun. I want to do a quick round, quick fire round because we've been chatting for a long time, but there's a bunch of stuff we did not discuss. One thing I'm curious to know about is do you think Brands use data in the correct way. Like, do you think they are afraid of data and market research and all of that stuff? Do you think they need to use it more or less or not more efficiently or, or less efficiently? Like, what do you think relationship with market research in the fashion world? How does it need to change?
- [62:55]
Ian Schatzberg
I think that it's market research is hugely constructive and I think that like most fashion companies have a sort of, you know, somewhat of a sort of potential allergy to it because it is an instinctual driven business. And I don't think, I think that makes sense. But I do think that like understanding customer segments and understanding kind of where your audience is and where your audience spends their time and what they want from you is something that I think businesses should be very attentive to. So I don't think you should like, I've seen sort of market research where I don't think you should like design your products or your creativity into like archetypes that are determined from market research per se. Maybe. But. But what, what I'm sort of interested more is like, can you get good insights and segmentation that help you understand like who actually is looking at this stuff? Because I think it will inform the way people go about their communications process. And I think in general people have a lower. There's not a high propensity towards doing that research, getting that research and really examining that research. I was sat in a meeting once with a great designer and they looked at all the research, they said, great, we're going to throw that out now. And I was like, okay. I mean, I laughed and I was like, we could throw that out. But I was like, there are probably kernels of things there that are going to make you just more creative.
- [64:19]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Yeah. So yeah, okay, that's that. It's fascinating because I do think people fear it and don't know how to use it. And so they need people like you to know how to use it. On this, on the subject of not knowing how, knowing how to use things, celebrity, like, it's so. There's so much, so much money put into celebrity now. Every campaign, every fragrance campaign has a celebrity that used to not be like that. So much put in investment into the red carpet. Perhaps there needs to be more at certain houses. But I was thinking I'm going to do a piece at some point soon about like the, the other LVMH brand celebrity strategies when you're not Dior or Louis Vuitton. And like, how do you, how do you manage for that? But what do you think, like, how will celebrity be a part of brand building in the future? We kind of can see what it. How it works right now.
- [65:19]
Ian Schatzberg
I think celebrity will continue to play a huge role. I mean, I think the reality is, is like, the scale of these businesses require fame around them and people who have large audiences and kind of are at the pinnacle of pop culture. So I don't think celebrity is going anywhere. I think what's interesting to me is brands that create an alchemy around the way in which they cast talent. So I think what is. What I think is boring and over is endorsement, which is like, you know, I've sat in so many meetings, it's like where you just look at, like, reams and reams of casting, and it's kind of like who's available and who can we get and who can we put in this and how are we going to kind of, you know, shoot them, produce them, make something with them? I think really what you want to see is you want to see twofold. I think what's intriguing is, like, how do you find talent that has some sort of, like, cultural insight that you can tap into? Like, how do you find someone who has a project going on that is somewhat aligned with the interests of your brand and sort of build something together with them so it feels hyper specific and relevant? I was, like, thinking about this thing that we did with Fendi last year before Cat's Eye kind of blew up. But we knew that, like, there was a tremendous amount of Internet fandom around the new haircuts that Cat's Eye hadn't released. And so we made a campaign with them and it was really all about revealing their hair because their fans really wanted to see what their new hairstyles were and had it publicly revealed it. And it drove the highest video views in history for Fendi. Just that, because we knew the fandom existed. And so I think in that instance, there is like some sort of connectivity that you can key into with the talent that makes it more potent. I think the other thing is about kind of what you were saying about with Jonathan. It's like, it's about world building with talent and creating the right alchemy of people. Because I think that that is you want to see people bump into each other who may not make sense together, who build idiosyncratic kind of texture within the brand that sort of create a sense of like a character in a world. And I think that, like, using celebrity as a way of character building is like a fascinating approach as you Think about kind of casting and oftentimes I think celebrity is like a blunt instrument. It's like, who's the biggest, who aligns, how do we get them? Let's go. And, and that I think kind of is boring. So not going anywhere, but definitely requires I think like increasing scrutiny and skill set around usage because we're bombarded by celebrity endorsement now.
- [68:04]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Final question. Ian Price.
- [68:08]
Ian Schatzberg
Yes.
- [68:08]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Price has never been more discussed in the public of, of these brands, of, of anything, of the cost of anything. It's just all anyone wants to talk about is price. And in fashion in particular. And there's been a lot of talk about it. And this, this executive I was with the other day was saying she feels like the prices have been recalibrated a bit and we just don't even realize. And I've experienced that at retail or like seeing line sheets, that sort of thing. But do you think there is opportunity in creating brands or positioning brands where they are a little more value driven than the top, top, top tier luxury brands? And is there a point in being obsessed with price from a marketing perspective at this point?
- [68:58]
Ian Schatzberg
It's a great question. I mean, yeah, that's a great question. I don't know if I have a huge insightful comment on it other than I was discussing the other day with someone like there was an element of fashion, like I was discussing about Prada handbags back in the day. And like, I think there was an element of fashion where the price point maybe was a little bit more accessible and allowed you to have fun. And I think people like to have fun with, with fashion. I mean, I think like we are in a, in an irrational category where you buy things because you, you want to have fun with it. And I think that like, if anything, my only comment is like, I think that the prices have gotten, got so out of control that like it took the fun out of, out of having these items that like you wouldn't go and buy a sequenced, you know, nylon Prada bag because you just didn't think you were going to get the usage out of it. And at one point maybe it was a little bit more access and you could just have fun getting it. And so I think, like, I just think about it through that lens most recently, which is like people want to have fun with these brands. Like it's a fun. People go into these businesses because they want to make people feel great and they want to have, they want to be around nice things that sort of enrich your life. And I think when price becomes Such a barrier of entry. It's. It's kind of just unfortunate. But I'm sure an economist would have something better to say than me. But I'm just looking at it through the lens of fun.
- [70:28]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
No, also, I mean, part of your job is marketing it to make something feel worth it. And so if it feels unfun the price, it doesn't feel worth it.
- [70:38]
Ian Schatzberg
Yeah.
- [70:38]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Whereas, like, kind of expensive, and you kind of feel like naughty is correct. But, like, too expensive, then you feel, like, bad.
- [70:46]
Ian Schatzberg
Correct.
- [70:47]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Even if you're really rich.
- [70:48]
Ian Schatzberg
And when it's fun and it's a little maybe more accessible, you could maybe be a different version of yourself, which I think is the purpose of fashion in a lot of ways, which is you reach for something that, like, makes you rethink who you are. You know, you're going to put that on and you're going to be a different version of yourself. And I think there's a lot of power in that. And that's, you know, ideally wouldn't get so much in the way of it.
- [71:11]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Ian, this was such a pleasure. Thank you for taking so much time and teaching me so much. This was. This was awesome. I think people are going to love it.
- [71:19]
Ian Schatzberg
Thank you.
- [71:23]
Host (possibly a fashion journalist or podcast host)
Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.
- [71:48]
Ian Schatzberg
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