Jesse Lee (4:05)

Thanks for having me. How are you?

Lauren Sherman (4:07)

I'm good. How was your weekend?

Jesse Lee (4:08)

Weekend was uneventful, but a lot of catching up. Been traveling for a while, so it's good to be back home in LA and just chill.

Lauren Sherman (4:17)

So you just got back from Basel because you're the chairman of Design Miami and your company acquired Design Miami a few years ago, right?

Jesse Lee (4:27)

A year ago. So, yeah, we announced it actually towards end of last year. So it's been a little bit over a year now. So over the past 12 months or so, I've been on the design art fair circuit quite a bit. So, yeah, a lot of traveling, but it's been fun.

Lauren Sherman (4:44)

So you know what our mutual friend Jason Stevenson Stewart said at their live show in la, Halong Gong's live show in LA a couple of weeks back, and I quoted him. He said, the problem with Art Basel is that anyone can go, no, I.

Jesse Lee (5:00)

Saw that at the bottom of your newsletter. I think like a week ago. It's 100% true. You know what's ironic is that actually long before we acquired Design Miami and before Basic Space even, I had a creative agency and we used to throw a lot of events and parties during Art Basel Miami. And the main thing was about, yeah, throwing those parties and events and everybody would just come into town. And so in some ways, I think over the past several years, Basel's become ubiquitous in many ways, for better or worse. So Jason's point is pretty accurate.

Lauren Sherman (5:38)

So we're going to get into the news of the day really quickly. But I did want to talk to you a bit about this. And then also Basic Space and what you do there and sort of your big design philosophy, your big philosophy about design and how it's the new luxury, if you want to reduce it to that. But really quickly on the Basel thing. So it's interesting, I talked to a couple people who I would say aren't big collectors, but collect and kind of went for inspiration. Raf Simmons style, definitely, as usual. I got a photo of someone at a gallery with Raph every year, because I feel like he goes every year. He just goes to all these things a lot. But those people had a great time. And then it sounded like the people who were frustrated or thought it. It was just because after the first couple days, when the series collectors leave, it's become like super pro fashion promo y. Just the way F1 is, like, has been taken over by fashion brands. There's just so many events now, all that stuff. As someone who is leading this different fair that is really focused on design objects and furniture and home stuff and a million different things, do you think the vibe at Design Miami is different from like the main show or any of the other shows that are happening during that period?

Jesse Lee (7:08)

Yeah, I mean, so a lot to unpack, but just to keep it simple, you know, we really do believe that design is a new luxury and part of it is, I think. Right. Even you just mentioned art. But just to kind of go back to fashion a little bit too. So one could argue Fashion Week kind of went through a similar phase where I think 10 years ago going to New York Fashion Week show or Paris Fashion Week had some exclusivity and a specific, I think, moment in time where over the past few years now it's become pretty ubiquitous and a lot of events, parties, dinners, presentations, and again, not a bad thing, just became really big and quote unquote, more mainstream. I think similar things happen with quote unquote, Art Basel or these fairs with design. It's actually pretty niche. I mean, even for me, it's only been a few years or even couple of years to be specific, where I've gotten more into it. I think it allows it to be something more unique, special, something that you can live with longer. And it's sort of like graduating from fashion up towards design. Art in many ways too is unless you're really wealthy and you really know what you're doing, it's not easy to break into. It's highly speculative and it's difficult for people to just buy something in the primary market or something that's actually going to be worthwhile. So I think that's kind of the main problem, so to speak, in the quote unquote art world. With Design, again, it's a bit more functional and something you can touch and feel and use. And we feel like with Design Miami we can create an environment where it's a bit more scarce, it's a bit more exclusive. I mean, the one funny thing that happened last week too was A Dollar actually had a booth with us at Design Miami for Homemade, his design object company. And him and Rihanna actually hosted a very small 100 person private event at the fair after we closed ours on Saturday night. So it's truly like a night at the museum type vibe and friends and family. And they didn't go to any other fairs or any other events. They just came to our thing, in and out, hung out for three hours. Right. And I think Rocky was quoted the next day in like New York Times or whatever, you know, saying something similar to what we're talking about how design, it's sort of like the new direction for everything, something along those lines in the New York Times quote.

Lauren Sherman (9:37)

So yeah, so you run this in addition to acquiring Design Miami a year ago through your bigger company, used to run a creative agency. And then a few years ago I met you through your. At the time, your publicist Caitlin Phillips, one of my all time top five favorite publicists who you were. You had launched this social commerce platform, Basic speaker Space, which was like people who have influence, not necessarily influencers selling stuff. And let's not get into the business model because it's really complicated. Maybe we can do that on another, another, another day. But can you talk a bit about your how Design Miami and Basic Space fit together and your sort of thesis about design being the. Like you were saying before, design is driving a lot of consumption. Now like you talked about that in terms of art, but what about. We've also discussed it in terms of fashion and just like general consumption with this younger group of consumers who's coming up who are wealthy, how does it all sort of fit together?

Jesse Lee (10:56)

I mean, Basic Space was even born from a simple concept, which again is that even for myself and my friends, we wanted a more curated platform or a place to buy and sell. And ultimately curation comes through one's taste and style. And ultimately I wanted friends of mine and friends of friends to be able to sell directly to others, whether it's pre owned, vintage or new. So I think what made Basic Space unique even four and a half years ago when we launched or whatever, it was always a mix of pre owned, vintage and new, and it was always a mix of fashion, design and art. We even had NFTs in the early days. So it was less about what we sold, but more about what we felt like was the next big thing and something that we cared about. And over the last two years or so is when design really became of interest, not only for myself, but a lot of our mutual friends, people that you know and you've probably had on the pod before. And fashion just again became super ubiquitous. So like people start just buying vintage clothes or archival pieces maybe if you want luxury, but then you get into like a daybed or a vintage G wagon or you know, somebody else you know very well. Like with what Bryn's doing with Dimepiece. Right. Getting into Cartier and, and vintage watches. Right. So it's a whole different, I think, movement that's happened over the last few years. And to me, design is sort of the overarching umbrella because it could be home furniture, objects, hi fi audio, vintage cars, all that stuff. So in my opinion, over the next five, 10 years, I think design will be sort of the next big theme. And it can actually, it's the umbrella for a lot of things that's considered style.

Lauren Sherman (12:44)

So last week, even when I was sending you topics for today, you mentioned there were two big campaigns that really incorporated design, big fashion campaigns. Can you share what your observations were and how this ties into what you're, what you're saying?

Jesse Lee (13:01)

Yeah, I mean, I just even discovered it serendipitously. Balenciaga had wiped their Instagram account and then started posting photos of say the Jurgen Teller campaign. And initially I think the first dozen or so photos were just used furnitures in the middle of the street of Paris. And through sources, I was able to confirm that they were actually Demna's personal furniture. And then there's more coming. Then of course, then subsequently they launched products on top of. Right. They're showing objects sitting on chairs, furniture, sofas, all that stuff. Right. So super interesting and kind of juxtaposition of vintage furniture with new objects and fashion from Balenciaga. And then like a day later, Alaia launched a whole campaign with all their new stuff sitting on or in the spaces of a lot of the top design galleries in Paris that we work with or that show with us at Design Miami. So that was also interesting. It was a juxtaposition of like a table or a Perry Anne bookshelf or whatever it may be with a new bag and pieces coming from Alaia.

Lauren Sherman (14:13)

Did you see the new Alaia store in London? Photos of it?

Jesse Lee (14:18)

No.

Lauren Sherman (14:18)

You need to check it out. I don't know who did the interiors, but it's. I linked to it in line sheet and just said this is like what shopping tourism is about. But they have a whole library. I'm sure it's. You can buy stuff and a cafe and Violet London East London Cake shop is doing the pastries and things. But sure, that's great for any of us who. Who eat. It's. It sounds good. But the thing that I was just blown away by is the look of the. Of the library area. It just is absolutely next level. I love the clothes. It's like the only brand I buy right now that, that I'm interested in it at full price or at retail or whatever. But the library was the thing I was really excited about. I think it really speaks to everything you're saying.

Jesse Lee (15:14)

Yeah, I mean, I think future of retail or especially luxury fashion. Right. I think it's pretty clear online business has changed quite a bit. And I think the smartest brands are going to focus on their retail experience. And especially if you're a luxury fashion house, I think it has to be part of that. Right. People are paying for the experience, whether it's online, offline and I think post Covid now, it really gives them opportunity to own the space and present what they want their brand to be.

Lauren Sherman (15:45)

So the last time I think I ran into you was actually at the Bottega Veneta show in Milan last. What would that have been like September? October.

Jesse Lee (16:00)

October.

Lauren Sherman (16:01)

And we were seated. Maybe they knew we both live in LA or something. I don't know. It was funny that we're seated next to each other, but you ended up selling those chairs at Design Miami. Right.

Jesse Lee (16:14)

So just to be specific, the chairs that we had a week ago, they're on display. Technically there are limited quantity available for sale through Bottega's VIC program and we have a project we'll announce shortly, soon where we'll have access to some as well. So, like, a lot of them are already allocated and spoken for, and there's very few amounts left potentially for sale.

Lauren Sherman (16:41)

And can you share a little bit of. They were animal bean bags. Everybody was given the pr, Chose specific beanbags for specific people. So.

Jesse Lee (16:51)

Yeah. Do you feel like your animal choice reflected who you are?

Lauren Sherman (16:56)

Which one? Now, I honestly can't remember which is. I have a photo of it. I think it was a rabbit.

Jesse Lee (17:02)

Gosh.

Lauren Sherman (17:03)

It wasn't. It was. I would have picked a penguin personally for myself, but there were not many penguins. So I also think. I mean, look like it was prioritized of, you know, the people in the front row definitely got a little bit more.

Jesse Lee (17:22)

They made sure Jacob, Rocky, and had the right ones. Kendall had the right ones. Maybe. I think mine was like a chick. Like the baby chick or something.

Lauren Sherman (17:33)

I think there was one that I was really drawn to. Maybe it wasn't the. I just liked the penguin. There was one that I was like, oh, that should have. I should have been that. But I can't remember now. It's fine. They were cute, but who is the artist who did them?

Jesse Lee (17:50)

So, Zenoda. Those are the Sacco chairs. So it's actually an Italian brand that Matthew and Bottega collaborated with, similar to, like, when they did two years ago with Gaetano Pecce. Right. They kind of select the partner, and then obviously, here's my invite. I know. I've seen actually so many of those. Not just the Bottega show, but Gitano was, like, famous for sending really cool creative invites for design shows too, so. Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (18:19)

You know, honestly, if I was rich, I would have bought one of the Gaetano Pecce chairs from that show. They were awesome.

Jesse Lee (18:28)

I might be able to get you access to one.

Lauren Sherman (18:31)

Okay, let's. I need to sell a couple books. I need to do something to be able to.

Carvana Representative (18:36)

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Lauren Sherman (18:40)

Yeah, sure thing. Hey, you sold that car yet?

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Lauren Sherman (18:46)

Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy.

Indeed Representative (18:48)

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Lauren Sherman (19:00)

Just like that. Yeah. No hassle? None. That is super convenient. Sell your car to Carvana and swap. Hassle for convenience. Pickup fees may apply.

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Lauren Sherman (20:14)

What do you think of Mattieu Blasey going to Chanel? So you were obviously very familiar with his work at Bottega and especially because he was so obsessed with craft and design and there was like a real. I'm sure they would have ended up entering home. I mean they sort of had they. They opened this maison in New York. It was just like a really beautiful. They just did that beautiful space. The. Even the perfume bottle of the fragrance that they launched was like so beautiful and designed and a real object. I have also have this with me from the invite from a previous invite.

Jesse Lee (20:55)

Oh yeah, Yeah. I mean they always have really cool invitations. Yeah, I have a couple of things too. But I mean like even if you've gone to their stores, right. As well as even their office actually, like they have amazing furniture and always had that. So I think Matthew was definitely a trailblazer, you know, among others and incorporating design into not only the show, but then eventually. Right. Selling them as part of their offering. What are my thoughts on him going to Chanel? I mean, I think, you know, I've been listening obviously to some of your podcasts and reading line sheets and from the beginning there were so many speculations of others and Matthew seemed to be kind of like an underdog slash kind of came out of nowhere, but didn't really because if you really think about it, it makes sense. He's still very young and to your point, he's very articulate and I think what he wants to show and you even. I don't know if many people know this, but I believe his dad either was an art design antique dealer, has sort of background in design art world. So I think Matthew's point of view on what he's incorporating and how he's utilizing design is all part of it all. And then to your earlier point about the Alaia store in London, I think what I'm excited to see with Chanel, too, is perhaps, Matthew, you can like, reimagine even the store experience. Right. So it's not just about going there and shopping and perhaps different way of experiencing Chanel.

Lauren Sherman (22:25)

Yeah, like, God bless Peter Marino. But let's do something different, people. Let's do something different. The thing that I think is interesting that I actually haven't written yet, and someday I'll incorporate it into something. But his title there is interesting. His title is Artistic Director of Fashion Creations. So that is a very specific title. And that to me, says that they want him to focus and want him to take his time and create things and less about, you know, if they had. If they had hired someone like Simone Jacquemus, it would have been very much about, let's overhaul this image. Because he is just his. His talent is being able to, like, recreate an image. And so I think that this is going to be, like, a very cerebral experience. And also for the. It's going to be the next nine months. He's not showing his first collection until October. But I. You're exactly right. Like, when his name first popped up, I was kind of like, okay, everybody, chill out. Because he wasn't. I said this a couple of weeks ago. If you look him up on Getty, there are only 40 images. And honestly, there are probably really only 10, because that's just 10 images of four different angles or whatever. He's not a public person. And so what I had heard internally from people at Chanel was that Lena Nair, the. The global CEO, her. Her big idea for the business is a. To make it less siloed in some ways, where all the different departments work together closely, but then in other ways make it more like everybody has a specific job and so there isn't one person kind of running the whole ship. That. So I know those things kind of sound the opposite, but it's like cross functional. It's a very modern way of working and that. And, you know, they have been working a different way for the last 45 years. So when they talked about they wanted someone who would be there for 20 more years, who. It wasn't really. They were looking at the way Hermes runs their business, which their designers have Public profiles. People know who they are. They do press. They're excited about them, but it's not about the designers. It's about. And Hermes is the star. And I think very early on in the conversations, I had heard that, but it was just really hard for me to believe personally. Just because Chanel is a couture house, it's not a leather goods house. And so that just requires a different. I thought a different kind of personality. But the reality is that I think they're right. Like, shit. Chanel is a huge brand, and there are people in this world who don't know that Coco Chanel is dead. Like, there it's. And I make that joke a lot, but it's very true. It's not as much about. It's about the idea of the brand and less about some person running it. And I think it was really brave of them to hire him. And I also think that it's gonna pay out what he's capable of. We don't even know. And so if he. If he's capable of any more than he's already done, it's going to be a success. And so it's interesting. I'm excited to see what they do. Could you imagine them getting more into home and design, or do you think that that's too far outside of their purview?

Jesse Lee (26:14)

No, I think it's a strong possibility because you kind of need to go where the next consumer is going or going to want. Right. So I think the previous generation may have wanted certain types of products. Couture and leather goods or bags and the shoes. I've heard you talk about, like, women that wear the Chanel flats and they don't really care who the designer is. But perhaps for those that are, quote, unquote, millennial Gen Z. Right. Like, their version of a luxury may be different than that. So I think it's something that they should definitely consider. But just to add to your point, though, because I. I think it was you that wrote about this, too, about hiring Matthew, maybe another, like, a broader signal to luxury fashion houses. And perhaps it's more about the skill and the craftsmanship than being a marketer or, like a brand manager. Is that. Yeah, y. I think that works for, like, chanel. I think 100% makes sense. But there are probably some fashion houses where you do need a personality or someone to maybe pull the brand up or at least into the zeitgeist.

Lauren Sherman (27:17)

Yeah.

Jesse Lee (27:17)

So it's probably a mix of the two, but I think for Chanel, it's probably the right move.

Lauren Sherman (27:22)

And it also. The pendulum swings. So I mentioned Virgil Abloh, My editor was like, can you give some examples of these brand manager types? And I mentioned Virgil because that's the most successful example of it. Like, yes, he's a designer. He was more of a product designer than a fashion designer. And you could also argue that Jonathan Anderson is more of a product designer than a fashion designer, that he doesn't sketch. But I don't. I don't think it's negative. I think it's just that, like, people saw the success of Virgil in particular, and they thought, let me just get someone who's cool, who understands what's cool and who understands what product is cool and put them in this job. And the reality is, like, Virgil is so much more complex and special than that. And so you can't just. And what's going to happen now is like. And we already see this, people are hiring, like, quote, unquote, real designers for these jobs, and it's going to be the trend for the next year. And most of them won't work because it's not the right fit. They're not thinking about what is right for their brand. And the unfortunate thing about this industry is that people do tend to wait and see. There aren't a lot of brands like Chanel that have the confidence, like, if Matt, too, doesn't work out, Chanel's going to be fine. They'll figure something out else out. Look at Virginie VR. You know, she was. She kind of managed it for five years, and it was okay. It wasn't the best thing in the world, but looking back, like, it also wasn't the worst thing that could have happened to them. And the brand is stronger than ever, so they'll be okay. But I think a lot of these smaller brands tend to kind of follow the leader instead of thinking about what's totally right for them. On that note, there was a report in Women's Wear Daily late last week that Capri, the owner of Michael Kors, Jimmy Choo and Versace, were gonna. Was gonna try to. Because they. Their merger with Tapestry didn't happen. They had engaged a bank to try to sell off Versace and Jimmy Choo. This is not really news. We knew this was gonna happen. It was pretty much. I don't know if people thought it would. It would be now. Maybe they would wait till next year. But because the deal got dissolved earlier than February 2025, as previously expected, they're on it and they're like, we got it. We Gotta get rid of this stuff.

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Lauren Sherman (31:33)

I wanted to ask you and I'm going to write a lot more about this later in Line sheet later this week. I wanted to ask you specifically about Versace and what you think about that brand because to me from a home design perspective a they already have that business and also there's a lot of Versace. Not a lot, but there are Versace branded homes, apartments in like luxury condos and stuff in the world. I could see very, very easily some sort of Versace hotel type thing, but they haven't gone there. Do you have a like a quick hit analysis of what that brand of that brand and what you think its potential is from a design perspective?

Jesse Lee (32:22)

Yeah, I mean on the Versace front probably the best path forward from my point of view is really exploring I think their archival right like 80s 90s vibe. Like if you ask me, sort of the peak of the brand and the influence on culture is probably that era. I don't know the exact years but maybe like late 80s early 90s and there were a lot of like even like back in the day hip hop References and then there's some classic pieces, whether apparel or jewelry that I think can go do really well. So maybe even home and design, if it were tied to some sort of archival pieces and vintage, I could see Versace being a really hot brand amongst like the next gen. Right. It could be their first moment or the way they discover the brand.

Lauren Sherman (33:08)

Yeah. Do you think most people of the next gen are starting their luxury consumption journey by buying secondhand first?

Jesse Lee (33:19)

Yeah, I mean I think that's a very valid question because maybe for sort of our gen and older, right. It may have been through magazines or TV and celebrities and all that stuff. But I think for sort of our gen younger, especially maybe older gen Z, they're discovering it through online, E comm, flea market, whatever pop ups and different outlets out there. And so I think that makes sense. I think they discover through vintage, try to create their own style and then maybe learn more about the brand. And as they accrue more income and opportunities, perhaps they buy new stuff. But yeah, I think vintage is like they're their way in for sure.

Lauren Sherman (34:02)

I was going to ask you about the Donald Trump fragrance, but do you care? I don't really care. Maybe we should talk about why we care.

Jesse Lee (34:11)

Don't care about the fragrance or Donald Trump.

Lauren Sherman (34:15)

No, let's not talk about whether what you think about Donald Trump. Let's talk about the fragrance or not. Do you care at all? I didn't even. I was gonna link about it in the newsletter and I thought I just. What's the point?

Jesse Lee (34:30)

Yeah, I don't know if it really. Yeah, I only looked it up after you mentioned it. I didn't even know about it to be honest.

Lauren Sherman (34:35)

Why do things like this exist for a headline essentially.

Jesse Lee (34:40)

I mean at this point nothing he does commercially or otherwise surprises me. So it sounds like something he would have been doing or probably did in the 80s version of it. So whether he's a president or not, he's probably going to be dropping some exclusives. I don't know. It's crazy though. Wait, what's it called? Fight. Fight. Fight.

Lauren Sherman (35:02)

Yeah, I just do many. But I guess men are back to wearing fragrance.

Jesse Lee (35:07)

Oh, there's a whole speak. I. I can talk.

Lauren Sherman (35:09)

Oh, the little boys thing, right? Like little teenager.

Jesse Lee (35:12)

Well, no, I was gonna say I actually my. No, my wife made fun of me and still brings it up in the fact that when we first met over 10 years ago that I wore cologne and so like I have not worn cologne since then and I don't even, I don't know Too many people that actually wear cologne.

Lauren Sherman (35:33)

What cologne did you wear?

Jesse Lee (35:36)

Oh, it was Tom Ford. The. I forget the exact name, but it's this. It's like the thin bottle, a Tom Ford. It's relatively mild. It's not like it was overly fragrant. But she's like, she. She'd call me a boomer or something for wearing.

Lauren Sherman (35:54)

I know a couple like real hashtag mensweary guys that wear it, which is fine. Like it's. They're not. It's inoffensive actually. Who was I with the other night? I was with someone the other night who doesn't fall into that category who had on cologne. I did not like it. It was not. But the thing is, I wear a very strong fragrance and I love it. It's. But it's only. I've only started wearing in the last year or so and I am starting to become self conscious of it because scent is. It really is like a polarizing thing. And if this scent is just it. It does work really well. I mean I get a lot of. It's the first time I've ever worn fragrance where people notice it and I get compliments. But it's extremely strong. And so.

Jesse Lee (36:46)

Well, at least, at least leaves an impression, right?

Lauren Sherman (36:49)

Yeah, but like, do you want that? I don't know.

Jesse Lee (36:53)

I don't remember walking away recalling your scent at the Bottega show. The worst is when I shake someone's hand and they're wearing such strong cologne or fragrance that like it stays on your hand.

Lauren Sherman (37:08)

Oh yeah.

Jesse Lee (37:09)

Like wash my hands like four times and still smells. That's the worst.

Lauren Sherman (37:13)

That's tough. Okay, moving on. One final thing. So Sarah Shapiro, our new contributor to Line Sheet, had a really fun. Well, I don't know if it's fun. I don't think it's fun for anyone but us. But there was a story last week. This brand, road R H O D E, this fashion brand. It was like floral dresses, very. You'll know this because you live on the. The sort of east side of la. Natalie Martin vibes. Do you know what Natalie Martin is?

Jesse Lee (37:42)

No, what's that?

Lauren Sherman (37:44)

Do you know that store in Larchmont called the Little Kid Store? It has like a dumb name. It's like.

Jesse Lee (37:50)

I mean, I'm on Larchmont almost every day.

Lauren Sherman (37:52)

Twyla, or something like that. Like the little kids, the toy store. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Jesse Lee (37:57)

The one next to like Starbucks?

Lauren Sherman (37:59)

I think so, yeah.

Jesse Lee (38:00)

Yeah.

Lauren Sherman (38:01)

So what's that store called? But they sell a lot of these dresses, and they have their mommy and me. They're just like floral dresses. They're very popular. But this brand road was sort of like kind of in that world, kind of in the world of doan, kind of in the world of farm Rio didn't really have a. Yeah, I'm familiar.

Jesse Lee (38:22)

I think, yeah, they're on, like, revolve or something, right?

Lauren Sherman (38:25)

Probably. So they closed last week. And the whole thing is. Sarah and I talked to a bunch of people who work in the industry. Their sort of sentiment has been road. The Hailey Bieber brand has, which came out in 2022, rode the fashion brand, owned the trademark. They took the Hailey Bieber brand to court. They settled out of court and resolved it this summer. Sarah has details on exactly how what went down there. But everyone on the Internet sort of positioning this as Ro, the Hailey Bieber brand, kind of running Ro, the fashion brand, into the ground. I don't see it that way. I feel like this brand didn't really have a strong point of view. I'm sure the people who founded it had the best intentions, but the reality is, if they really wanted to keep going, like, yes, it totally sucks that this person came in. But the thing is, Hailey Bieber offered to buy the brand from them. Like, it's not great, but at the same time, just rebrand. And if it bothers you that much that you have the same name, which, like, who cares? Just rebrand and start over. And they decided to close. So my instinct is, I know it sold well at certain stores, but other stores had dropped it because they had, like, one really popular dress, and then they never really got traction beyond that. I'm curious. As a branding expert used to run a creative agency, like, what do you think they should have done? Do you think that. I mean, we don't know what their personal circumstances are. Maybe they were just like, I'm sick of this. I need to end. But, like, if you were in a situation where a really famous person launched a brand in a different category, but it was the same name as yours, how would you manage it without, like, spending, you know, hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars in legal fees?

Jesse Lee (40:26)

By the way, I didn't have a chance to look this up. But so what happened to the. Then the initial lawsuit or whatever around the.

Lauren Sherman (40:34)

It was settled out of court and there was a settlement, there was a payment.

Jesse Lee (40:39)

And then on top of that, you're saying Hayley offered to buy the brand.

Lauren Sherman (40:43)

On top of that, buy the trademark. Offered to buy the trademark from her, from them.

Jesse Lee (40:49)

And they chose the.

Lauren Sherman (40:51)

Yeah, they. They declined.

Jesse Lee (40:54)

Yeah. I mean, I think in that specific incident, again, I don't know all the details, but I probably would have played nice, I guess, if that's the way of saying it, with Haley's team, and find a way to collaborate and work together. Especially since Ro, the beauty brand, has taken off and seemingly doing really well. I can't see any downside to that. I think in other instances, it just probably depends, right? Like, I don't know what their relationship was or if they even have one, but ultimately, as a business person, you know, you want to make it. Make it work best way possible commercially. And, yeah, I would have found a way to collaborate, probably.

Lauren Sherman (41:35)

I agree. I think that. Look, I hate to be complacent, but in these circumstances, there's always more to the story on both sides. And the reality is, would this brand have existed five years from now, regardless of whether or not Hailey Bieber's Road existed? I'm not sure. And so let's not just blame the big bad celebrity. In this case, I think that the big bad celebrity did everything she could in her power to make things right.

Jesse Lee (42:06)

So, wait, what happens to the trademark, though? If they then shut down the brand.

Lauren Sherman (42:11)

Maybe Haley will buy it.

Jesse Lee (42:13)

So maybe that still could happen.

Lauren Sherman (42:15)

Yeah. Yeah. Jesse, this was so fun. Next time, why don't you come on and we can just dig into your design as the new luxury philosophy.

Jesse Lee (42:24)

Cool. A lot more to talk about then, but thanks for having me.

Lauren Sherman (42:27)

Thank you. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent sp. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman, and Bob Tabador.