The Girlboss Discourse

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fashion People – Episode: "The Girlboss Discourse"

Released on August 12, 2025

Hosts:
Lauren Sherman (Puck Correspondent)
Marissa Meltzer (Author of It Girl: The Life and Legacy of Jane Birkin)

---

1. Introduction and Episode Overview

Timestamp: [00:57] - [04:47]

Lauren Sherman kicks off the episode by introducing herself and her co-host, Marissa Meltzer. She outlines the key topics for the episode, including:

• The Outdoor Voices relaunch and audience feedback.
• Speculation around Vogue's head of US Content position.
• A one-month check-in on Mark Guiducci's changes at Vanity Fair.
• The departure of Susan Plageman from WME Fashion.
• Stylist Lar Roach's ambition to purchase a renowned fashion house.
• An upcoming deep dive with Sarah Shapiro on the merchandising strategies of Kate.

Lauren Sherman:
"We're talking outdoor voices, Gwyneth Paltrow, Copenhagen Fashion Week, the girlboss discourse, and so much more."
[00:57]

---

2. Outdoor Voices Relaunch Feedback

Timestamp: [12:43] - [19:14]

Lauren and Marissa delve into the recent relaunch of Outdoor Voices (OV), discussing its shift in target demographics and product offerings. Marissa reflects on the brand's evolution from its 2015-2016 peak, emphasizing the changes in style and audience.

Marissa Meltzer:
"It's very much like a younger, maybe even younger demographic than the initial Outdoor Voices drop because that was way more sort of age and color neutral."
[16:55]

Lauren shares her interest in the new materials and color palettes introduced by OV, noting the brand's strategic merchandising decisions.

Lauren Sherman:
"I thought generally, I thought the colors were really good. And I thought I... the thing I was interested in was like, why she put a banker shirt in there, why she used these specific colors... it's interesting."
[19:02]

---

3. The Return of the Girlboss Discourse

Timestamp: [22:00] - [32:00]

The conversation shifts to the resurgence of the "Girlboss" narrative, sparked by a Bloomberg article that critiqued the movement. Lauren expresses her concerns about the backlash faced by female entrepreneurs who were part of the original Girlboss cohort.

Lauren Sherman:
"The reason I wanted to talk about this with you is you wrote a book about Emily Weiss, one of the kind of OG girl bosses... The thing that bothered me... they were held accountable for work environments that a lot of places have."
[27:17]

Marissa adds that these women were unfairly targeted for systemic issues within their companies, highlighting the lack of nuanced discourse in public perceptions.

Marissa Meltzer:
"They were blamed for work environments that a lot of places have. And they were really targeted and sort of people really, you know, there was a little bit of a burn the witch relish in their downfall."
[25:47]

They discuss the broader implications of cancel culture and the challenges of moving forward post-cancellation, advocating for more balanced and thoughtful conversations.

---

4. Copenhagen Fashion Week Street Style Critique

Timestamp: [32:00] - [40:56]

Lauren and Marissa critique the street style observed at Copenhagen Fashion Week, describing it as monotonous and lacking originality. They lament the overuse of certain trends and the homogenized appearance of attendees.

Marissa Meltzer:
"It's just so the same. The big oversized sort of, you know, bonson style dresses, the bright colors, the flip flops... it's all just so the same."
[37:12]

Lauren concurs, pointing out the influence of social media and the pressure to replicate influencer styles, which leads to a lack of personal expression.

Lauren Sherman:
"It's so overwhelmed. There was one Skull Studio pink sweater and pink trousers that I will get."
[38:32]

They express a desire for more individuality and creativity in fashion showcases, suggesting that fashion weeks may need to evolve to foster genuine innovation.

---

5. Food52 Scammer Incident

Timestamp: [43:19] - [47:07]

The hosts discuss a recent scandal involving a Food52 employee who misused company funds for personal expenses, including high-end purchases and luxurious trips. They examine the implications of such behavior on company culture and oversight.

Lauren Sherman:
"The main issue with it for me is who was approving these because I don't buy the thing about how she was coding it to the photo shoots."
[43:29]

Marissa highlights the audacity of the misuse, likening it to blatant extravagance without regard for ethical considerations.

Marissa Meltzer:
"She was literally buying sofas... trips on Delta and other people's plane tickets... it's pretty wild what she got away with."
[45:02]

They conclude that this incident underscores a need for stricter oversight and accountability within companies to prevent future misconduct.

---

6. Amy Odell's Biography on Gwyneth Paltrow & Goop Kitchen Discussion

Timestamp: [47:07] - [62:53]

Lauren and Marissa delve into Amy Odell's highly acclaimed biography of Gwyneth Paltrow, praising its thoroughness and insightful revelations. They discuss Gwyneth's complex persona, her management of public image, and the internal dynamics within her brand, Goop.

Marissa Meltzer:
"I devoured the book. It was like, you know, Amy Odell is a really good reporter. Like, this is a book that you read and you can tell that she is leaving no stone unturned."
[48:41]

They explore the ongoing "cold war" between Gwyneth and Estee Lauder, as detailed in the book, and express interest in further exploring these professional rivalries.

Marissa Meltzer:
"The one thing that has not been explored that Odell talks about that I thought was so fascinating is this sort of ongoing cold war between Aaron Lauder and Gwyneth."
[52:49]

Transitioning to Goop Kitchen, the hosts share their experiences and opinions on the brand's expansion into the culinary space. While praising its concept, Lauren expresses concerns about the declining quality and menu changes.

Lauren Sherman:
"Goop Kitchen is a different cap table, so it has a different set of investors. I truly believe that this concept can be scaled and is brilliant."
[57:12]

Marissa reveals her enthusiasm for the healthy yet comforting menu offerings, contrasting it with Lauren's mixed reviews on specific menu items like pizza and chicken.

Marissa Meltzer:
"I am so excited. It's more significant to me than if an Erewhon opened. I could eat every meal there."
[57:47]

They conclude by encouraging listeners to support Goop Kitchen while acknowledging the challenges of maintaining quality during rapid expansion.

---

Conclusion

Lauren Sherman and Marissa Meltzer provide a nuanced and engaging discussion on the current state of the fashion industry, dissecting both emerging trends and longstanding issues. From the evolution of activewear brands like Outdoor Voices to the complex dynamics of the Girlboss movement and the scrutiny of influential figures like Gwyneth Paltrow, the episode offers deep insights into the multifaceted world of fashion. Their candid conversation, enriched with personal anecdotes and critical perspectives, makes this episode a comprehensive guide for listeners seeking to understand the undercurrents shaping the industry today.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Marissa Meltzer:
  "I don't want to be the person that speaks in aphorisms, but it is kind of... You can never go home again."
  [13:19]

• Lauren Sherman:
  "I think that people shouldn't really be wearing these sets as an outfit that they wear during the day type vibe."
  [17:54]

• Marissa Meltzer:
  "There's something about them that really brings it out in people. It's like the popular girl that you want to be nice to you and friends with, but then you also want her downfall."
  [31:05]

• Lauren Sherman:
  "Everything is binary. There's no critical thinking. And the world is doomed."
  [32:06]

• Marissa Meltzer:
  "They need to go touch silk. Please go touch silk."
  [41:24]

---

Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions between the hosts.

Transcript

[Lauren Sherman]

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[Marissa Meltzer]

You mean finance?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, finance. Got pre qualified for a Carvana auto.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Loan, entered my terms and shot from.

[Lauren Sherman]

Thousands of great car options, all within my budget. That's cool. But financing through Carvana was so easy. Financed, done. And I get to pick up my car from their Carvana vending machine tomorrow. Financed, right? That's what they said.

[Marissa Meltzer]

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[Lauren Sherman]

Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's fashion and beauty memo line sheet. And today with me on the show is Marissa Meltzer, author of It Girl the Life and Legacy of Jane Birkin. We're talking outdoor voices, Gwyneth Paltrow, Copenhagen Fashion Week, the girlboss discourse, and so much more. Happy Tuesday, everyone. Hope you're enjoying tomato season, which is obviously not a thing on the west coast, but definitely is a thing on the East Coast. We always have nice tomatoes here. So if you're acting like it's tomato season on the west coast, it's really not. But I do love tomatoes. Anyway, lots of goodies for you this week. On Line Cheat. On Monday, a triumvirate of Conde Nast. Related news from first up, Vogue head of US Content speculation. And we do a one month check in on Mark Guiducci at Vanity Fair where he is making some interesting changes. Actually, I think you should check it out and learn more. And I've also got some color on an old Conde Nast executive who left a while back, but Susan Plageman who was at WME Fashion, left at the end of last week. It was sort of expected. I've been writing a lot about her tenure there since I've been at Puck, which was a little bit, a little shorter of an amount of time, but it's been interesting. Says a lot about state of fashion industry, about the state of the representation industry, et cetera, et cetera. So I have some color on why she's leaving. Plus, the stylist Lar Roach is looking to buy a famous fashion house, which is very fascinating. I hope he pulls it off because I can't wait to see how it all unfolds. But more on that in line sheet and also make sure to check out today's because Sarah Shapiro is getting into the business of Kate. You'll recall that the VCPE firm Stripes invested in Kate a few years back and I had a big story on it right after the deal went through. And we're doing a check in and Sarah's kind of looking at how the brand is merchandised at this point, what sells, what doesn't. And it's fascinating. I mean, if you go to any wealthy neighborhood and everyone's wearing Kate shoes, Kate jeans, Kate knits, Kate dresses, maybe carrying a Kate bag. But it's a really important brand in the US Market in particular. And Sarah puts her buyer's eye on the whole thing and explains why it's working. So I hope you enjoy it and I hope you enjoyed this interview with Marissa. Marissa Meltzer, welcome back to Fashion People.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I'm so happy to be here. I've been just in New York having spicy takes alone all summer long.

[Lauren Sherman]

So I'm ready If only the first five minutes of this podcast that we just spoke, off the record, was publishable, but it's not. Molly, please do not ruin our lives by by publishing it.

[Marissa Meltzer]

We could say, okay, one takeaway is I would, I would take a job somewhere and you'd like to manifest that for me. So I am available if anyone wants to offer me something attractive.

[Lauren Sherman]

Marissa is available for the Vogue editorial head of content.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Oh yeah, I did say I would. I'm happy to go on the record that no one has Approached me about it. And that's their loss, because every month's cover would just be a woman in a clown blouse. It would just be like, Chanel couture. And then it would be a really complicated Alaia. And, yeah, maybe a woman with a snake. It would be a real return to Diana Vreeland.

[Lauren Sherman]

Here's the issue to me. Who looks at covers?

[Marissa Meltzer]

Well, you know what? The covers I did would be so stunning that there would be a return. Covers would be so back. You know, the COVID that has made the most inroads in my group chats lately is that New York Post cover with Sex and the City that was like, they ruined sex or whatever. That is an iconic cover. I know more than one person who bought it to frame it. It's, you know, like, I. You know, those are the kind of tabloid covers that we need more of.

[Lauren Sherman]

How excited are you about the California Post? The New York Post is. Is coming to California. They're gonna have a California. I'm. I'm excited. I might get. I might subscribe.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Oh, I absolutely would. I'm gonna buy gift subscriptions for my parents, for sure. Oh, great idea. As native Californians, I'm very interested in their coverage of California and their takes. I mean, yeah. I hope they have a Montecito. Dedicated Montecito reporter. Beat reporter.

[Lauren Sherman]

Montecito is one of those towns that has a newspaper there also.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I know, but I mean, person runs. It's the way that if I were given this vogue job and blowing through money, I would have a dedicated big bureau.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. Who just hangs out at. What's that restaurant that everyone goes to?

[Marissa Meltzer]

Big Sur Bakery.

[Lauren Sherman]

Nepenthe. Yeah, Nepenthe. I'm not a Nepenthe person, obviously.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Well, I. Obviously, I like this place called Ham.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. I like this place called coast, where the guy used to work at, like, tartine or some crap. Yeah. I love.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I mean, I love Big Sur Bakery. I love, like, a sunset drinks at Post Ranch. My father has gone on at least two honeymoons in Big Sur, so, you know, we're family.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm a big. The first time, you know that I've been to Esalen.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I love that for you.

[Lauren Sherman]

I did a week long. I am. I am this. This, like, reduces to how dumb I actually am. I watched the finale of Mad Men. You went to Islam from Mad Men? And I was like, I have to go to this place. I was like, what is this place? And I looked. I didn't know about se.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Well, yeah, it's true. You're not a Californian and then I.

[Lauren Sherman]

Found out, like, a lot of fashion industry people go and had been. I was feeling very on edge. This is what, 2017 and stressed. Highest stress I've ever felt, probably. And I booked myself a single room, which is the very luxurious, for seven days. And I learned about meditation through looking at art.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Was it the longest seven days of your life?

[Lauren Sherman]

You know, honestly, the thing that was the hardest about it, I kind of think I should have done a silent retreat.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Oh, I love a silent retreat.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think that's what I really needed because the issue for me was that everyone on the retreat wanted to talk a lot and share their feelings. There were people who had their. One girl, her boyfriend had just died. One person was just getting over cancer. Another person was getting divorced. And then that guy Jordan First. Is it Jordan Firstman.

[Marissa Meltzer]

He was in it and he's like.

[Lauren Sherman]

And this was before he was famous.

[Marissa Meltzer]

And so was he taking up a lot of space or was he intriguing?

[Lauren Sherman]

He was. I. The first day. First of all, he's like 10 years younger than me. Like, he's quite young.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Okay.

[Lauren Sherman]

And I was like, but the first day, I'm like, oh, I'll be friends with this guy. Like, he was the only person in.

[Marissa Meltzer]

The group here who I can be friends with.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. I was like, this is the only person in the group that I see socializing with outside of this situation. And then he became the center of the group. And he was writing on Search Party, that show Search party at the time. This was before he was famous, this pre pandemic. And I was like, oh, my God. This. Because I had watched the show.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Oh, didn't they have a guy plotline afterwards?

[Lauren Sherman]

Afterwards.

[Marissa Meltzer]

So it was a cult, wasn't it?

[Lauren Sherman]

Maybe I didn't watch it after because I was like, this guy is using this experience for material. Wow. And essentially I didn't speak the entire time. And everyone else. And it really. That was the heart. It was amazing. And I'm. I. I enjoyed it. And I. It made me fall in love with Big Sur. And we've gone back. We have not stayed at Post Ranch, but we've stayed at Ventana Love.

[Marissa Meltzer]

That's where my dad honeymoons.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's pretty nice.

[Marissa Meltzer]

He's a Ventana.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. It's lovely.

[Marissa Meltzer]

A deeper cut is Tassahara. That's the.

[Lauren Sherman]

Ooh.

[Marissa Meltzer]

That is the Buddhist retreat where you're. Where like, the meditation and therapy all involves needing dough and baking bread and.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Before we move on, while we're manifesting, what fancy spa would you like to Go to in our. Like for us. Maybe Becky Malinsky will come. Maybe Amanda, you know, like, where are we. Where are we going?

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, in California.

[Marissa Meltzer]

No, it doesn't have to be California. Think big.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, I want to go to that place in Switzerland.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Monzerhof.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Hell, yeah. Me too.

[Lauren Sherman]

We gotta go.

[Marissa Meltzer]

There's also Meyer Clinic, which I think is similar. I would like something that's somewhere sort of Mittel European, like Germany, Austria, Switzerland. Only 100%.

[Lauren Sherman]

These are. In the summer especially.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I want to eat brown bread.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. And just look at green.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Just look at green. I want it to be something where we're not encouraged to talk to each other. And maybe they make me detox from caffeine.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. And where people are kind of mean to you. Oh, I want them to be a little.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I actually. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

This.

[Marissa Meltzer]

This is a whole thing, but I kind of only respond to people that are strict and mean to me. To me.

[Lauren Sherman]

Same. Do you think we should be in therapy?

[Marissa Meltzer]

More or less?

[Lauren Sherman]

I am in therapy.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I've been in therapy my entire life. Like, literally for 40 years.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, agreed. Since six years old.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Since I was, I think, seven. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

The minute. The minute my parents divorced, my mom was like, here's a.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Here's a therapist.

[Lauren Sherman]

Me, too.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Instead of my own parents, say, pursuing their own therapy or anything, it was like, let's. We'll put our daughter in therapy to deal with this change.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Okay. So we can talk offline about our various therapy experiences. Let's go through. We have a lot to cover this week. There's been a lot of Marissa Meltzer coded fashion news this week that I wanted to chat with you about. Okay. Let's start with the outdoor voices relaunch feedback. More recent. I think I am gonna have Tyler on the podcast, so props to her and for. For wanting to come on the podcast.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Absolutely.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think it will be great. But. So I'm curious to know. I wrote a bit in last week's line sheet about my. My personal reaction to it.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I'm a suspect.

[Lauren Sherman]

What did you think of it?

[Marissa Meltzer]

I. I don't want to be the person that speaks in aphorisms, but it is kind of. You can never go home again. There is something. There was something magical about that, you know, 2015, 2016 era. I think of it along the same time. When Sky Ting was opening, I was doing a ton of reporting on beauty and wellness for Vogue. And, you know, I absolutely wore those leggings. Although my favorites were some of the tanks and the like.

[Lauren Sherman]

I still.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah, me too. And have still tried to buy some off of ebay. Um, the leggings were fine. They were a little compressive for, for me, for yoga. Maybe if I had been a runner, but tragically, no. Um, and this, you know, I, I know there's still a lot of need for workout clothes, but I personally have gravitated to cotton workout clothes. I just. Because, you know, I'm not like you. I don't do like mega reformer or run. I'm doing yoga and so I love like a sweatpant or a cotton short and I definitely wear sports bras and stuff like that, but I just want like ease of movement and Yeah, I don't know. I also am so over people wearing like activewear, things like that as, you know, outdoor clothes. Like, it's one thing to be on your way to work out and back, but like, I don't want to see it all day. I don't want to see you in your workout dress. I just want us all to be better.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. And Sarah Shapiro's gonna come on the podcast when I'm on vacation and we're gonna do a deep dive on like the stage state of activewear. And I thought Vanessa Friedman had a great headline in the Times that was like, I don't remember it now, but it was basically like this. We're in the post Athleisure. What is Athleisure now?

[Marissa Meltzer]

It feels a little like vintage retro, even though we're only talking about a decade ago. But also looking at the new Outdoor Voices stuff like the, you know, the cropped hoodie and pants set that has the sort of like diamante logo. It's, you know, it's not for me. But also I am a cranky 48 year old woman that likes yoga and you know, like it's for, it's definitely for a younger, maybe even younger demographic than the initial Outdoor Voices drop because that was way more sort of age and color neutral. And this feels a little more like Gen Z nostalgia coded. And yeah, you know, I wish them. I'm. Despite everything, I, you know, I hope I want like small brands like that to succeed and there's plenty of room for good activewear. But I'm, I'm not going to be buying it. But I'm also not buying literary sport.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Because it's too expensive.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's too expensive. Here's what I think. I agree with all of that. I would say it's interesting to watch the way Tyler Haney's mind works. She sees that. Exactly what you're saying. That people shouldn't really be wearing these sets as an outfit that they wear during the day type vibe. And so I think. And she sees people on the street and she clearly has positioned this, I think, not only for younger people, but also people who don't live in New York and la.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah, it looks suburban to me. It's very like, coolest girl in Cincinnati.

[Lauren Sherman]

Exactly.

[Marissa Meltzer]

And there's a big market for that. Like, I always, you know, I want people like that to like, read my articles and buy my books because it's outside of my bubble of elitism if I'm being, you know, frank.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And when you look at the shop, my top 10. We started doing this monthly. Sarah started doing this monthly column.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I'm so interested in it. It's fascinating.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's crazy. It was like basically the most click through items that have shop my links. And so it's like a Veronica Beard hoodie, zip up hoodie thing that you think they have so many. They introduced those 15 years ago. That's still one of the most popular products. A lot of it was driven by the Nordstrom anniversary sale this month, which is interesting. So I think the challenge with that is, I think you're exactly right. I think the other things that people aren't sort of getting with this OV thing is it's a very small group of product. They didn't introduce a ton of new things and they pared back the styles that they already had. And so I think the thing I would say is I'm very interested in trying the new material because it says it has a cotton, like feeling. And also I think the colors are great. Like, I would be interested in a pair of shorts and a bra, a sports bra. From there. The problem for me is, like, I'm not gonna wear the embroidered outdoor voices tramp stamp. I'm too old.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Like bedazzled anyway. Doesn't really matter.

[Lauren Sherman]

There. There are certain things bedazzled. The shorts are embroidered, hopefully as they. If it does well and she gets to release more product, hopefully there will be a little more stuff for people who are not interested in like a super. But I thought generally, I thought the colors were really good. And I thought I. To see for me as. As a person who like writes about how people merchandise their collections and things like that, that's what was interesting to me was like, why she put a banker shirt in there, why she used these specific colors, like a bunch of powdery pastels, but then also brights and. And there was no purple. Like, things like that are interesting.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Ariel Kellogg is one of the models. She's one of my favorite. She's just like a TikTok weirdo who does nunchucks with wearing really cool outfits that she thrifted. And I think she, you know, she's also beautiful, but she genuinely has her own style and she's interesting and she looks. She makes the OV stuff look super cool. And I love that she's using nunchucks in them. Yeah. To me, it's a little heavy on the exercise dress, and I get that that's what they're sort of known for at this point. But other than tennis with. What are you wearing an exercise dress for if you're not just, you know, wearing it to sort of flounce around in your free time?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. That is a very particular person. That is not either. Either of us.

[Marissa Meltzer]

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[Marissa Meltzer]

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[Marissa Meltzer]

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[Marissa Meltzer]

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[Lauren Sherman]

So this kind of brings me to the next thing, which is there was a lot of dialogue last week about the return of the Girlboss. There was a piece in Bloomberg about it that honestly, I felt was. I was troubled by it. And then Danielle Prescott, who I'm a big fan of her work and I've known her for a long time. She wrote an essay in her substack that was essentially like, Danielle wrote a great book called Token Black Girl about her experience working in the fashion industry and has written novels since. But she like, during. During the sort of Girlboss reckoning Danielle had an advisory agency that I think.

[Marissa Meltzer]

She probably still has her works.

[Lauren Sherman]

With, Chrissy Rutherford, that where they sort of went in and were hired by brands to essentially advise them on how to be less racist and how to be more inclusive and all these. I don't want to use too many of the buzzwords that don't mean anything but like, make structural changes to their businesses so that they could make it better for everyone. And I thought Danielle, she. She made a point of like, the media is essentially just propping up these women again in this way and they're given permission to come back and reconstitute their lives and no one's talking about all the things that happened. Look, I think one of the challenges in Danielle's piece, and I want to have her on to kind of talk more broadly about this stuff soon, but is that like a lot of the people that were in that Girl Boss cohort weren't racist.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah, I mean, I guess that came from. My point is that they were held accountable for sort of societal and business world and economic problems that they alone, especially as a cohort of young women entrepreneurs, could not solve themselves nor. Nor should they be held accountable. And they were held to standards that are much higher than we're holding for, you know, the, the sort of techno overlords of the world and, you know, just men who run giant companies that, you know, are filled with misdeeds. And so these are not Harvey Weinstein's. Like, these women are not doing things that were illegal. You know, they are. I don't even think they're guilty of white collar crime or anything. So I think that they got in some ways unfairly maligned in some ways because they were blamed for work environments that a lot of places have. And they were really targeted and sort of people really, you know, there was a little bit of a, like, burn the witch relish in their downfall because. But also the flip side of that is they were, you know, more or less all white, all conventionally attractive, all got so much press and publicity, which they can sort of act as serious as they want or like sort of accidental. But, you know, they are putting publicists on retainer and hiring people to get that kind of publicity. Like they wanted it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, yes. So this is the thing that I think it's just every single one of those situations we both. You wrote. The reason I wanted to talk about this with you is you wrote a book about Emily Weiss, one of the kind of OG girl bosses, the founder of Glossy Glossy, it's called I Hope people buy it glossy. Yes, please buy Marissa's book and also buy her new book about the it girl about Jane Birkin that's coming out in October. We're going to talk, we're going to have a dedicated entire episode to Jane in a couple months. But I can't wait. But I think the thing that is frustrating to me and what I really took issue with was the Bloomberg piece is that the reason as someone, I covered a lot of these companies as businesses, like Nasty Gal, for instance, I wrote a piece about Nasty Gal for racked in 2015 where there was like a lot already a lot of complaints online about the workplace culture, yada, yada yada. The thing that bothered me about Nasty Gal was that for four years in a row they had articles in Inc. Entrepreneur, Forbes, Fortune saying this is an amazing business. It's going to do over a hundred million dollars a year in sales. And I was like, but every year it's going to do over a hundred million. That means it's not growing. No one did any actual reporting on the business. They just saw a good looking white woman and they were like, oh, she'll, she would look great on our cover.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Well, yeah, and she wrote, I mean she kind of made the word girl boss popular. She wrote a memoir called Hashtag Girlboss speaking of things that seemed dated from 10 years ago and it was even made into a Netflix show. And yeah, I mean she was a very good self promoter. Like a lot of her book was about how rich she was and you know, the poor, she bought in cash and stuff like that. Like it's a, you know, it's a, it's, it's easy to understand why that's a sort of sexy story to cover. But I think everyone looks kind of bad in that. You know, the journalists who were breathlessly covering it, the, you know, the people that were so eager to, you know, have them have their downfall. The companies that swore that they would make changes, whether it was their own companies or you know, larger companies that hired consultants like Danielle and you know, didn't really do anything. And now we're in this kind of, you know, post woke moment. I did in a profile of Yael Aflo, who you had on recently and you know, she was kind of lumped into that with Reformation. And one thing that really struck me was when she was talking about businesses she invested in and friends, you know, she and Leandra Medine did their like lab grown jewelry collaboration and you know, she was, she was an investor in Audrey Gelman's company. And it struck me as fascinating. And the story I want is like, these women still are close and I don't know if it's because that era banded them together and the fallout or if they genuinely have real bonds as entrepreneurs. And to me, that's interesting and I would love to know more.

[Lauren Sherman]

I agree. And I think you mentioning Yael and being lumped in. I covered what happened with her very closely. I broke all the news around it. And what I will say is a. There were definitely workplace culture issues at Reformation. She publicly apologized for them. A lot of the things she was accused of were not true.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah, I was going to say there's an they hired independent, you know, sort of audits of the company culture and, you know, it was dismissed.

[Lauren Sherman]

There was some pretty awful.

[Marissa Meltzer]

And that's the thing. It's like. But that doesn't even matter. It didn't matter in that era where it was enough to just Jacques and you know, I, I, yeah, I feel for them. I, in some ways I'm inspired that it's, I think part of the problem of that sort of cancellation wave of, you know, five years ago is that there was no path forward. Like what happens when you're canceled? How do you repent? How do you start over? Are you allowed to, you know, are you just supposed to be sort of public enemy for the rest of your life, even if you were like 30 when that happens and they are showing a way sort of forward in a sort of post cancellation era and what that looks like, whether people support it or not?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I think, look, it's all complicated and it should be interrogated. And I'm glad for people like Danielle who can write about this stuff thoughtfully. What is frustrating to me is the sort of everybody was part of this. Like everybody. Oh, yeah.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I feel very complicit.

[Lauren Sherman]

Take responsibility. Yes.

[Marissa Meltzer]

And that's the problem is these girls and there's something about them that really brings it out in people. It's like the popular girl that you want to be nice to you and friends with, but then you also want her downfall. It really brings out the inner adolescent in everyone, myself very much included. I try to be thoughtful about it, but I think that people are all too eager to take them down and they are all too eager to move forward, maybe. And so there needs to be maybe a little more meeting halfway. But we're not living in sort of a societal moment where there's a lot of nuance or people wanting to meet halfway about literally anything.

[Lauren Sherman]

No, everything is binary. There's no critical thinking. And. And the world is. Is doomed.

[Marissa Meltzer]

And that's why I've been watching State fair food halls on TikTok at late at night.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, wow. I don't do TikTok, but I do watch TikTok.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Okay, well, I'm sure people are doing them there too. And it's so soothing and so gross.

[Lauren Sherman]

That sounds disgusting and hilarious. So speaking of another sometimes gross thing, can we talk about the street style at Copenhagen Fashion Week? Because one of our mutual friends, I don't want to out her here, but she was like, it is so bad. I can't take it. It's so awful. It's pretty bad.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I've been trying to think about why it's bad. And here's what I think. So Fashion Week has been this balance of people who are there to work and people who are there to be seen. And in the 80s and 90s, it was heavy on the fashion editors and heavy on the buyers. And certain fashion weeks have different sort of ratios. New York is becoming more and more the peacocks of people who want to be seen. And that can be their job too. And Copenhagen, because of the time and because of the place, is not really somewhere where I think a lot of sort of senior critics or writers are going or being sent. And so I think you have it weighted way more towards the people who are going to be seen and to enjoy Copenhagen, which is a wonderful city that I'd love to be in right now. And it's also just a fashion week where trends go to die. Like, if I see one more double belt around a jacket, if I see one more scarf in a triangle knotted around the waist, I'm gonna lose it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Speaking of Leandra Medine, people, she's a big inspiration to me too. But, like, literally no one, like, they have no imagination. They literally look at Leandra's outfits and they copy it for like 15 years.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I love a scarf worn in an interesting way. I love wearing a scarf as a halter. The beauty of go into any Hermes and people are wearing scarves real weird and cool inside there that work there. Like, it's not. It's just so. It's supposed to be sort of so free spirited. It's like this fashion week full of sort of, you know, manic pixie dream girls, but they all look exactly the same. The big oversized sort of, you know, bonson style dresses, the bright colors, the flip flops, which I say as someone who wears flip flops and always has, as a native Californian, they're my birthright. But it's all just so the same. And it's kind of everything that's wrong with the way people dress and dress up.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think we're just at the end of a trend cycle, or we already started a new trend cycle. And it like, feels.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Feels like you're an optimist, though. They're gonna look the same in the end of the cycle. It's gotten worse.

[Lauren Sherman]

I would say, like, yes, the thing about style in that, first of all, they have a lot of local brands because of the way the economy works, because they have the capabilities there, because of the way the European economy more broadly works. But the point being that do these fashion weeks need to exist and should it be something different than a fashion week? That's like a whole other thing. These tertiary fashion weeks have never been about the trade as much. But there. There is a local.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Remember LA Fashion?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I mean, it still exists, technically.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I mean, I think New York Fashion Week needs a huge change.

[Lauren Sherman]

Sure. But. But that's like, for another day. The point being that, like, yes, I think the reason. Because it just felt extremeless time. I think a. It's Copenhagen in August, which is beautiful. If you're gonna get good weather there, that's gonna be when it's like, kind of warm and also kind of. Kind of warm and also kind of. And beautiful. And it's like the perfect weather that.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Those of us in New York.

[Lauren Sherman]

I would love to go to Copenhagen Fashion Week on vacation. Like, that is how I feel.

[Marissa Meltzer]

And I think most people that go are probably. That aren't local are probably going because brands are sending them. Although maybe that's not.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think it's a lot of influencers. I think that the. The people who organize the Fashion Week probably pay for some people to come. I think there are a lot of social events, so, like, a brand will host a dinner and things like that. Honestly, I would go, like, it sounds fabulous. It would be super fun.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I would.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Again, Copenhagen in the summer. Like, I would love to go swimming there.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I thought the men looked a lot better than the women. Like, I was, you know, I follow James and Lawrence from throwing fits online, and they were at a lot of events that were sort of more like mixed or hanging out with guys. And the guys looked a lot more normal, I have to say. And I don't know, I live for sort of the girlies doing their what I'm wearing to, you know, day three of Copenhagen Fashion Week outfit things. But it's ridiculous.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think it's just done.

[Marissa Meltzer]

It's got to stop.

[Lauren Sherman]

I think that kind of culture of we have so much exposure to people's outfits every single day because of TikTok, because of the way Instagram has changed that. Like, it feels overwhelming. There was one Skull Studio pink sweater and pink trousers that I will get. Like, I probably won't wear them together, but I thought that girl looked very cute. And she's some hundred thousand person follower, influencer type person. I'm sure she is, but I think generally it just felt. I think part of it is we are at the end of a trend cycle. Everyone is over the lazy use of scarves.

[Marissa Meltzer]

The lazy use of shirts as belts, as scarlet scar, you know, like, it's too much.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's so affected.

[Marissa Meltzer]

It's really affected.

[Lauren Sherman]

That's the word. And I think everybody just needs to take a social media detox is what. What I felt by the end of that. And I barely. I felt like two people who went. But it still kept popping up for me. And I love Halle Le Savage, who works at Marie Claire. I think she does a really good job reporting on what's happening there. And she had a lot of good, like, images and people spotting. I enjoyed her coverage, but generally I'm just like, they need to. What they. There's not really anything they can do about it. It needs to be the sort of. We just need to ignore it. I think. I think this is the last time I'm going to pay attention unless I go myself.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah, it's getting a little hate watching. We've really put a great advertisement for ourselves to go. But yeah, I mean, it's like, yeah, it's. It's almost too much freedom. Like, the weather is too nice and it's too easy and it gives people. Like in New York, you're dressing kind of more. Less deranged because it's just so punishingly hot. It's like you're wearing a tank top and a skirt or something like that. And like they have too much freedom and too many options and they're using it the wrong way.

[Lauren Sherman]

I went in May and it was so nice. I went for this conference and I got to catch up with a lot of people on brands there. And look, this is the reason Gani doesn't. Or Gani doesn't show there. They show in Paris. Like, the thing I would say is that just there's something more existential going on. But the main point is this affectedness that's happening. I think it's like a microcosm, something Bigger happening in terms of personal style.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Which is just the topic of personal style, I'm over. If you need to talk about your personal style using the terms personal style like you, you probably don't have anything.

[Lauren Sherman]

To say about it.

[Marissa Meltzer]

You don't need to.

[Lauren Sherman]

Again, lack of critical thinking in our culture.

[Marissa Meltzer]

We're so positive today.

[Lauren Sherman]

Look at, look at what Leandra Medine does and be inspired by it. Don't just copy her. Be inspired.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Or better yet, look at like go to a museum.

[Lauren Sherman]

Exactly. Go to the sergeant exhibit. It's closed, but you know it's closed.

[Marissa Meltzer]

But go to the frick or. What I am often inspired by is just feel. I'm a texture whore. So I'm like feeling fabrics. Like, you know, you might see a picture of like an addressy dress shirt or shirt dress and it looks cool and then you feel it and you're like, this is the most luxurious thing I've ever put on my body.

[Lauren Sherman]

Okay. Yes.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Like that's what these people need to do.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes.

[Marissa Meltzer]

They need to go touch silk.

[Lauren Sherman]

Please go touch silk. Go, go to the pool. Do whatever. I went to Claire Mazer came to our pool. Clara, Chris and Cam came to our pool club this weekend. It was so fun.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Oh, I wish I were in LA at a pool club.

[Lauren Sherman]

Next time you can come. It's so cow.

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[Lauren Sherman]

Really quickly, I want to run through a couple more things before we go. I did want to talk about the Speaking of Copenhagen, I wanted to talk about the Food52 scammer person.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Oh yeah, great segue. I mean, I think it's what we need right now is kind of a scammer. That wasn't too hurtful.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. So this person worked at FoodFit52 and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on the company credit card, including a trip to I don't know if she charged the Noma meal, but there's a the lead image in this article in the cup by the great Charlotte Klein was a picture of her at Noma, which by the way, never going back there.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I have no interest in Noma hating that news.

[Lauren Sherman]

I hate them so much.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I hate tasting menus too. I find it's like actually not fun. In fact, it's not fun.

[Lauren Sherman]

You feel terrible at the end. Yeah.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I went to Per Se once before I had to be interviewed and I've never been more uncomfortable.

[Lauren Sherman]

I did a family style at Noma when the actual restaurant was closed, when it was cold in Copenhagen under the bridge and it was Jen Rubio and I went because we were both at Shop Talk Copenhagen and it was awesome and amazing and like I loved it. But family style, wonderful tasting menu for people. So in Monday's line sheet, I had.

[Marissa Meltzer]

A lot of so 10 years ago.

[Lauren Sherman]

Cite a lot of links about the food industry. But anyway, this woman, the main issue with it for me is who was approving these because I don't buy the thing about how she was coding it to the photo shoots. Like, you don't need to buy stuff from Net a Porte. It's crazy.

[Marissa Meltzer]

No. Because she literally was buying sofas. Yeah. And like trips on Delta and other people's plane tickets and Annet a Porter. Like it's pretty wild what she got away with. So yeah, I think that they definitely it shows a real lack of oversight and but I also salute her taste. I too would love to go on a free trip to Copenhagen after just being mean about that city. I would love to to buy a lot of the row. Like it sounds like, you know, she did great things with being kind of evil. She misbehaved in a really Tasty way.

[Lauren Sherman]

Someone posted it and. And added. I think it was just testa and add. She. I didn't know what the article was. She just highlighted the thing about how the girl shoes was. Were always from the row. And yeah. She added Charlotte and I didn't know what it was about and I just responded to Jess. I was like that about me. Yeah.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Relatable. Yeah. She's a. You know, I. I relate. I think I told Charlotte that I related a little too hard to her desires. Not. I am not a. My father is a criminal defense lawyer and my only goal for our relationship is never to have to use him in a.

[Lauren Sherman]

You never will professional capacity.

[Marissa Meltzer]

No, no. I'm a real. You know, I'm a law abider. And also. Yeah like weird and.

[Lauren Sherman]

But I was like, I could see how she would just have three pairs of shoes from the row because she. Whatever. There are many ways you could do it.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Oh yeah. I mean people own things they can't afford all the time. People have secret sources of income. That's not new. Wondering how people afford things is like a. Is an. Is a worldwide pastime now that we see so much on Instagram, you know that people are showing off. So that is familiar. But her means of getting it is pretty wild and brazen.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's true. It was very fascinating. I wonder what will happen to her. So in the end. One more thing I wanted to ask you about. And this is a person who gets everything she wants. Last week, my queen, Our queen. Last week, Amy Odell released her biography Gwyneth. It did super well. Congrats to Amy. New York Times top five. Rachel did a really good Q and A with her about. I guess it was two weeks ago now, but Rachel did a great Q and A with her about GOOP specifically. And you are also a person who has done biographies of strong female leaders and famous people.

[Marissa Meltzer]

And I've interviewed Gwyneth. I've profiled Gwyneth twice.

[Lauren Sherman]

You've profiled Gwyneth twice? I've interviewed Gwyneth, I think twice and had really good experience. She really knows how to manage herself. She doesn't need someone.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Sure does. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

So I guess I did want your like top level. What you thought, what you think about the book and the response to the book. But then I also just wanted to talk briefly. There was a scoop buried in an article in WWD about GOOP products going to Ulta about Goop Kitchen opening in New York. So I just wanted to discuss it with you. But what did you think of the book and sort of the response to the book and all that and Gwyneth's lack. Of course Gwyneth's not gonna respond, but I really haven't heard anything from that camp of how she's managing it. I know there's been some more gossipy things saying she's mad.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah, I've read the gossipy things that she's mad. But, you know, I devoured the book. It was like, you know, a box of See's candies that I just ripped through. And, you know, Amy Odell is a. She's a really good reporter. Like, this is a book that you read and you can tell that she is leaving no stone unturned. Like, she's looking up at everyone that went to Spence. And, you know, she's talking to people who are like, way, way down the production credits in IMDb ask, you know, tracking them down and asking about their experience. Because part of writing something like that is you never know who's gonna have a wild anecdote for you and you don't know who will talk. And so she's so good at that. And she did it in seemingly warp style. And, you know, it's great. Gwyneth is an enigma, and I think that she's hard to capture. I mean, I've been in one of her homes, I've been around her, and I still don't always know how I feel about her, which is why I have this, like, sort of ongoing. I don't even know how many people understand at this point, because I have. Don't explain it. But like, years ago, I posted a photo of Gwyneth and said, this is my spirit, Gwyneth. And there's sort of a different photo of Gwyneth for everyone that kind of typifies them because she's sort of always Gwyneth, but she's also sort of chameleon, like in this way.

[Lauren Sherman]

And to me, a thing especially. I mentioned this when I kind of intro'd Rachel's thing that I used to. In high school, I thought she was the coolest. I wanted to dress like her. I thought she was. She was. To me, there's always a girl in. And I don't know if this still exists because of social media. Maybe this person's on social media for people, but in high school that you're like, oh, my God, this person is so cool and also is beautiful and is gonna have a really easy life and all that stuff. And it never happens that way. But Gwyneth was that person. She was just like charmed and I'm sure.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I think I have someone like that in high school who. I don't know if she still was, but for a while she was like head of publicity at Netflix.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, funny.

[Marissa Meltzer]

And I was like, wow, it really all worked out for me.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. I have someone like that who I still talk to and she's super lovely. I, I think her life turned out just fine. She didn't become. I thought she was going to basically become Gwyneth Paltrow. That didn't happen. But I think she's. She still looks beautiful and is she.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Pittsburgh.

[Lauren Sherman]

She still lives. She lives in Pittsburgh, I think. I don't. I actually don't know. I don't want to say her name, but, but, but it's just interesting. She was just like that girl that I just. I used to like, have photos and just copy her outfits and stuff like that. And I definitely don't feel that way about her. I. I admire her in a different way now and. But I think the, the spirit Gwyneth thing gets to the core of that where everybody wanted to be Gwyneth at some point. Yeah.

[Marissa Meltzer]

It's like, are you Gwyneth in a slip dress? Mine is Gwyneth. I think she's in an Armani show wearing leather pants with like a cigarette in one hand and a glass of wine in the other.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Which is just like, that's me. That's who I am. There's a picture of Gwyneth that will embody you at any time. The one scoop of the book that the book got, you know, plenty of people sort of talked about it, ran excerpts. But the one thing that has not been explored that Odell talks about that I thought was so fascinating is this sort of ongoing cold war between Aaron Lauder and Gwyneth. That's sort of a theme in the book that it was like, oh, now she's gonna be the face of an Estee Lauder brand. Like, oh, now she can't come to here. And I thought that was very interesting and would love sort of like a novella or some sort of spin off to hear a lot more about that.

[Lauren Sherman]

Claire Mazer and Erica Cerulo get that for 831 stories. Like a fictionalized version of.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Oh, does it become Sapphic at the end and they fall in love. Sapphic enemies to lovers.

[Lauren Sherman]

Maybe you should write this for them, Marissa.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Oh, God. I. Yeah. What I'm going to write next is a whole other question. That's another thing readers are welcome to chime in on.

[Lauren Sherman]

So send Marissa your spirit Gwenis via social media and she will.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah. So wait, what is you. What's yours right now? You've sent me a few over the years.

[Lauren Sherman]

So one is her school picture. Because it's like I was very her young self. Something changed with her personal style in the, like, mid-2000s, where I was suddenly like, this person is not a person I relate to anymore. Whereas when she was in high school and when she was super young, that was just like how I wanted to look. So.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah, she was so, like, clean faced.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And beautiful hair.

[Marissa Meltzer]

But not too manicured.

[Lauren Sherman]

No. And the clothes she chose, like, I remember her, there was a photo of her and I think Winona wearing DVF dresses. Like vintage DVF dresses. Like, there was just. It was very. That was like the printiest. Like, it was all, like, really minimal. And she just had, like white T shirt, jeans, and a leather jacket and hair flipped.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Just all. It always fit immaculately. Yeah. There's like a picture of her with just sort of like a black button down and jeans and like a belt and, you know, like kitten heel. Probably like Prada or Manolo boots that are just. That's like, in my memory because every little bit of that outfit is perfect. It's a little bit like Carolyn Bissette Kennedy, where it's just aged.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Marissa Meltzer]

So perfectly. Still looks really good.

[Lauren Sherman]

And one thing I asked Amy about, and I kind of wish she had gotten into a little more, is Carolyn was like, I think 10 years older than her or five or six. Yeah. And she clearly.

[Marissa Meltzer]

That's another sort of cold war that I wanted more about their rivalry.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And she clearly was, like, inspired by her fashion.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Who.

[Lauren Sherman]

And Carolyn was another person I was really inspired by. I think it felt a little more untouchable to me, weirdly, than Gwyneth maybe, because she. Yeah, because she didn't really. And she didn't really speak.

[Marissa Meltzer]

She didn't speak and she came like. People now say that she had an earthiness about her, but her public Persona was very, you know, don't touch. Where Gwyneth always had a little bit of a. You know, she seemed like she was really fun to like, sit in a corner and gossip with.

[Lauren Sherman]

Totally. And I just always have appreciated that. She does seem in on the joke, at least to an extent. The question.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I think she's very smart and she's very in on the joke. I think she's very aware of everything that people have thought about her her whole life. Don't forget Jewish dad. You're gonna be an overthinker, and you're gonna be neurotic.

[Lauren Sherman]

I do think that as you age and Amy gets into this about the sort of founder syndrome, celebrity syndrome combined, and people really don't share what they think. They don't tell you what they think. That can sort of change your personality, and it can change your view on life. And I think.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Or she's powerful and rich enough where if someone tells you what they think and you don't agree, you just plow through it. Or you don't listen.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Or you. Or they go away. And so I think, like.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Right. Or they're. They exit through the side door. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

And I've done a good amount of reporting on Goop myself, and my feeling is that she never hired the right executive. A. She's really smart, and so it's hard to find someone that would be a good match. I believe that, like, she can handle a lot of it, but she's. And there are things that she has trouble making decisions on. So. So I think, like, in the end, who she's become is not exactly who she was, for better and for worse. So it's. It's fascinating. But I wanted to quickly go into Goop Kitchen. Apparently, it's coming to New York. Have you eaten Goop Kitchen? I have. What is your review? And. Because I have an update, because it came to the east side, and I have a lot to say about it now. But how are you feeling about it coming to New York and what has your experience been?

[Marissa Meltzer]

I am so excited. It's more significant to me than if an Erewhon opened. I'm sort of. You know, I think Erewhon is fine, but Goop Kitchen is where I will go bankrupt. I could eat every meal there. It's like the perfect balance of healthy but not healthy. It's very much like the kind of food that I grew up eating. So it's very comfort food coated to me, and I cannot wait. But I feel like you're gonna tell me some sort of, like, the other shoe is dropped kind of bad news.

[Lauren Sherman]

I have some bad news. So, first of all, I'm very proud. Goop Kitchen. I believe that this is where Goop, they have a. It has a different cap table, so it has a different set of investors. I truly believe that this concept can be scaled and is. Is brilliant, and they should start doing actual physical stores and not just the ghost kitchens. I don't know if that's. That's the plan or not, but I think it's a great concept. Unfortunately, I do think that as they've scaled, the quality is not. Maybe the quality of the ingredients is the same, but they've changed the menu a lot and it's just not to my taste. They opened in, in Silver Lake and we ordered. They have these like chickpea, little soca bread type things.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I love soca bread.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's really good.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I'm going to eat them on vacation.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, those are still good.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Is the pizza still good?

[Lauren Sherman]

It's not as good. And so I think.

[Marissa Meltzer]

And the other thing, do they still have the chicken?

[Lauren Sherman]

I've never gotten the chicken. But the pizza is a big thing because as you know, my husband is celiac and it's gluten free.

[Marissa Meltzer]

It's the best gluten free pizza. It's so good.

[Lauren Sherman]

I would just say we do not order from there a lot. I also have become a very big proponent of organic Orin. Anyone who lives in Los Angeles needs to get on the organic orange rain, which is essentially. This guy used to be a private chef. He has. It's a. I guess it's like a meal.

[Marissa Meltzer]

It's like a private meal delivery.

[Lauren Sherman]

That sounds.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Look, anyone that wants to do any of that in New York, I'm so down.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's cheaper than ordering delivery. So we do not order in. My husband cooks. And I'm not being like, my husband cooks for me. I come up with a menu idea. He cooks. This is just our life. Or we go out to eat. And we go out to eat a lot. Like more than I would say most people because we lived in New York forever and it's just we enjoy going to restaurants. We never get delivered.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I've eaten popcorn as a meal. Today will be the third time in four days.

[Lauren Sherman]

Lots of fiber and probably some protein too. But the thing about organic Orin that's great is it's basically. It feels like you have a, a private chef. It's not that expensive. I'll spend between 100 and 200 bucks and I get like three or four meals out of it. And I often like, I'll take a salad to my coworking space and I'll bring that. Or if Dan is out, I do know how to cook a bit. Like, I'd say I'm fine and I can cook a pretty elaborate meal, but I just don't have the time and nor do I want to spend an hour or an hour.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Yeah, I'm like you. I'm perfectly adequate at cooking. I can cook a nice meal. I can pull things together for myself. I hate cooking. It's not enjoyable. It's not how I want to spend an hour of my night. So it's just never one I want to do. But I also like vegetables. I like to eat somewhat healthy. I don't love eating a ton of takeout. So I end up eating a lot of girl dinner or the second half of a sandwich or whatever.

[Lauren Sherman]

And this is what this organic auron allows for. Like the other last week, Dan was out. Fritz and I had quinoa crusted chicken fingers with this amazing honey mustard sauce, a bean and green salad and a green soup. And Fritz ate a little bit of all of it. And I love that boy's palette. It was delicious. And so all I'm saying is next time you're in la, you have to get it. It's October.

[Marissa Meltzer]

We'll do it. We'll do like a, a lunch or dinner together and we'll, we'll order organic Orin.

[Lauren Sherman]

Unfortunately you they, you order once a week and they send it to you. But I'll pre order it.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I know the dates are coming. Yeah, great.

[Lauren Sherman]

But what I would say is I. Best of luck to Goop Kitchen. I think it's awesome. I do think they need to.

[Marissa Meltzer]

It's hard to work on it a little. Especially different. You know, like there was a time when, you know, le pain cotidion was good. Those days are over.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, sometimes, I mean, avocado toast there still is fine.

[Marissa Meltzer]

Okay. But like, you know what I mean.

[Lauren Sherman]

I always go to the one by you after the Met preview and I.

[Marissa Meltzer]

I go to that one is good because you can work big and it's kind of quiet, you know.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yes. Marissa, thanks for being on, on the podcast today. I'll see you in September at this real, real event and then we'll talk. Jane Birkin. I can't wait. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.

[Unknown]

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