Podcast Host (3:09)

The art world and much more.

Lauren Sherman (3:11)

If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. You're just go to Puck News fashionpeople to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. I am actually recording this very early on Friday morning live from Milan where I'm having a great time. It's always very fun here, but this season has been, I'd say, especially fun. I just got back from the Max Mara dinner. Thank you to Judgy. No surname needed for having me. You all know who I'm talking about. This is her second fashion people shout out Apparently I think it's probably her third and she just hasn't heard the other one. But it was really fun and also my Saint mates were great. I am so happy I went and the food was good. I also saw Prada today, Emporio Armani shout out to Green and Anoushka who was holding court and I messaged a friend and and said that Anushka is nothing short of spectacular. It was an emotional day for them. Obviously this is the first show they've done since Mr. Armani died and it was a really good show. Anyway, I saw Jill Sander yesterday, Gucci the day before, Versace later today. I have a very special guest early next week to discuss the best and the worst of the Milan shows. One of your all time faves. So get excited. I don't want to say too much. We're going to save the conversation for next week. In the Line Sheet this week you'll find some of my Runway takes, but I also covered the news that Natalie Massine and Eric Tortson. Wow, I did that right. I think big characters in the Line Sheet universe are withdrawing their respective lawsuits against each other. So congrats to them. I have a little analysis on that. Maybe more in the coming days, maybe not. Plus I take a look at the situation with Amy Griffin, the investor behind G9 Ventures, which has a stake in a ton of brands we write about Goop Goop Kitchen, Rose, Spanx west and Atelier Studs. Pretty much everything at least everything that you know, Sarah writes about. But. And Rachel but like yeah, a lot of stuff anyway on running and or a ring too, etc. Just tons of things. But Amy was the subject of a pretty major New York Times investigation this week that questioned the validity of some of the claims she made in her very popular memoir the Tell. You might have already known that because there was a ton of stuff on like Reddit, those types of forums online, but Times piece was was really interesting and I originally just thought I'd do a little item on it, but then it became bigger because I think the role she plays in the business and society and all of that, it has a lot to do with what we write about in Line sheet and so I try to put it in a little context. I hope you enjoy this conversation that I had at the WSA building about why people shop secondhand and how it's changing the business of fashion a lot. I'm really fascinated with this topic, as you'll see. I get into this idea of the customer journey, which is like a very wonky marketing term. But I truly believe that access to secondhand has totally changed how we think about buying stuff. And today I wore a Raf Simmons Jill Sander blazer to the shows. I got it on the RealReal like a month ago. It's just, it's really changed. It's changed our lives. And so we talked about a huge thanks to the team who joined me on stage and obviously the RealReal and Kristin in particular for helping us organize it. And thanks to everyone who came out. It was great to meet a lot of you. Next time we do one of those, I'll be more available to meet and greet. It was a. It was a kind of a hectic.

Podcast Host (7:19)

Week, but I hope to do one.

Lauren Sherman (7:21)

Again soon and I hope you enjoy this.

Podcast Host (7:27)

Today's topic is the state of resale. It's brought to you by the RealReal and yes.

Sarah Shapiro (7:35)

Woo.

Podcast Host (7:35)

We all use the Real Real probably too much. We love it. And so they just published a resale report. We probably will end up talking about this, but it is a fully editorial panel. I also encourage everyone to talk shit about the Real real at the same time. But I'm just kidding. Anyway, I thought it would be good for each of you to introduce yourselves and talk about what your relationship is with resale professionally and then personally. And Kristin, maybe we can start with you.

Kristin Naiman (8:09)

Hi, I'm Kristin Naiman. I'm the Chief Brand Officer of the RealReal and my relationship to resale in a professional way is deep and daily. But I think on my relationship to resale, even professionally, I think is rooted in something very personal, which is that I've spent my whole life being a really deep lover of secondhand and vintage consignment. It's like my first love in fashion. It's like, was my road into fashion. It's how I learned about it. And it's the thing I always go back to. And it's been a really amazing experience to help really tell that story and look at this business as not just a disruptive business within the state of fashion and where we are today, but actually one that's like a future thought leader or forward idea about how we're all going to shop as things move on.

Marissa Meltzer (9:02)

My name is Marissa Meltzer. I'm a writer. I. I wrote about the realreal in a New York times style story a long time ago where I wrote about the realreal and poshmark and various other companies. And I wrote about one of the head authenticators from The RealReal maybe two years ago. But mostly I'm just someone who shops a lot and who has a bad relationship with money and financing. And the real real is part of my life, I think, except for my shoes. Everything today, including the bag that you can't see that's in the back room, it's an Hermes Kelly from the 50s was bought secondhand pretty much. So, yeah, it's part of my lifestyle and part of my entertainment because I'm not interested in sports.

Erica Virink (10:02)

I'm Erica Virink. I write mostly secondhand fashion substack called long live. And I've been thrift shopping since I was 15. So it feels like my formal education is in secondhand resale. But definitely like the less glamorous version, like Goodwill's in Iowa kind of thing.

Sarah Shapiro (10:23)

Hi, I'm Sarah Shapiro. I'm the retail correspondent for. For Puck's line sheet fashion and beauty memo newsletter. I am very interested in resale from a consumer and retail perspective. Being one of the parts of the business has really been disruptive in the past few years. I'm in the Bay area, very close to the realreal corporate headquarters. And I find that just like, very interesting how they've went from being like a single store to completely changing the way that we shop online and went from consignment being something you would maybe like, whisper or like you had like a strange aunt who you knew would go into these stores.

Marissa Meltzer (11:09)

How many real, real stores are there?

Kristin Naiman (11:11)

There are now like maybe there are 16. And we're opening a few more and.

Sarah Shapiro (11:19)

Seeing the personalities like I recently wrote about this but I love seeing how people treat resale. So whether it's I sign stuff or I buy stuff and I can sign, I think there's so many different levels to that. So I find that really interesting. Me personally, I feel that I'm a passionate but selective hoarder. So I will buy things but I do not get rid of things. But I do love shopping. The RealReal my blazer is from the.

Podcast Host (11:50)

RealReal so as is mine and I I definitely wanted to wear something secondhand but it most of the stuff I bought is from the RealReal because it is. I remember Julie, the founder interviewing her in 2012 for a story about there were all these secondhand sites and vintage sites that were being heavily funded and she said to me we raised the most money and we're going to be the most successful. And she was right. But it it allowed the RealReal to scale more than anything. Obviously there have been challenges along the way but it is remarkable to me. I try not to use a lot of jargon but when you think about the customer journey it has truly changed especially when it comes to luxury goods like there is. And Sarah, I'm curious. You were a buyer for a long time. It used to be there you stopped, you bought the item and you stopped and maybe you resold it if it was really high end and you had a store nearby that you liked. But now it's part of the thinking when people are purchasing things. What have you observed from your time as a buyer up till now covering this stuff of how secondhand has sort of been baked into the way people shop every day for luxury goods in particular.

Sarah Shapiro (13:15)

Yeah, I mean to quote the real real report like back to you the it was 47% of people consider the price of the resale item in luxury. I think it was ready to wear before making a purchase. And you're also seeing this whole secondary market of other businesses popping up to like help you get know have a widget in the corner that tells you before you purchase this item this is how much it could be worth later. I mean we're seeing items even with Hermes to reach a quota bag you're buying other items and then reselling those other items just to be able to earn your spot to buy the bag. I mean there's so many different layers and levels to this that are really interesting. And for me I also often think of it like buying a used car. They say the second you drive the car off the lot is when it depreciates the most. And sometimes I think of that with fashion is like, if it's already going to depreciate as soon as I wear it out the door. Like, resale's a great starting point, so you're not paying for that upsell. So that's like one way that I've started to look at it and how it impacts the industry.

Podcast Host (14:30)

Marissa, you are publishing a book about Jane Birkin, a biography called It Girl.

Marissa Meltzer (14:37)

Coming out, out October 7th.

Sarah Shapiro (14:40)

Please pre order.

Podcast Host (14:42)

So we'll be coming back on Fashion People again.

Kristin Naiman (14:44)

Yeah.

Marissa Meltzer (14:45)

Whether you want me or not, I'll.

Podcast Host (14:46)

Be back on Fashion People. Yeah. How much do you think Hermes and the Birkin in particular, and that that whole experience on the resale market has influenced people being comfortable buying other stuff too. Like, to me, that's sort of where this all started. Yeah.

Marissa Meltzer (15:09)

I mean, Hermes has this, I think one could generously call it opaque, labyrinthine sort of schema of shopping where there's all these unwritten rules of, like, do you have to spend the equivalent of a Birkin or a Kelly in order to get all offered one, which is such pretentious language. And Resale has really sort of, you know, bypassed all of that by allowing people to buy a Birkin or a Kelly or a different Hermes bag simply because they want one, because they have the money to buy one. And I think that, yeah, it's. It's sort of bypassed the whole process. Hermes as a company is weird and we'll never comment on it, but I do think it's sort of thrown something into their whole process of selling in that, you know, it used to be you had to sort of dote on a sales associate and buy all the requisite things. And now you could just go to Fashionphile or the real real, of course, and, you know, buy the Hermes or Kelly bag or Birkin bag or Picotin of your dreams, which I did from Risi and, you know, shout out to Sophia Bernardin from Risi, whose office is here and who's here today, fresh off the plane, bless her.

Kristin Naiman (16:55)

It'S Kelly Clarkson, here to talk all things Wayfair. The best place to buy furniture, decor.

Podcast Host (17:00)

And anything else else you can think.

Kristin Naiman (17:01)

Of to create a home you absolutely love. I know when I shop with Wayfair, I find options for every style. Whether I'm feeling boho or farmhouse, modern, traditional French country, I can find exactly what I need for my home and more. No matter your space, style or budget, shop wayfair.com to make your home way more you Wayfair.

Podcast Host (17:22)

Every style, every home. Kristin, I want your sort of big picture from the inside point of view on all this, but Eric, I want wanted to ask you quickly, let's talk about young people and how they think about secondhand. Because when I was growing up, we used to go thrifting. I had friends who wore vintage prom dresses or vintage dresses to prom, but we were, like, weird, and we didn't do it a lot. Like, I would have never bought a pair of shoes on secondhand. I would have never. There were a few kind of of small, very 50s, 60s vintage stores. And then there was Goodwill. How has it changed for Gen Z and a lot of millennial shoppers too, on how their process works when they're. When they're thinking about what they want to buy?

Erica Virink (18:18)

I think for a lot of shoppers, it's a source of pride to be able to say, I found this on the RealReal. I got it for 10% of its retail costs. But I also have a lot of friends who, like, collect quite seriously, and they treat secondhand or vintage shopping as, like, collecting assets, which might be a little complicated, but, like, they're not buying real estate, so they might as well, you know, buy a Chanel bag and then refer to that as an investment piece. But that language, I think, has become way more popular in my friend group.

Podcast Host (18:49)

Kristin, how long have you been at the RealReal?

Kristin Naiman (18:51)

For a little bit over 18 months.

Podcast Host (18:54)

Okay, so you're still really new. What did you think about how people shop the site and shop secondhand generally before coming in? And how has that changed for you?

Kristin Naiman (19:07)

You know, I think I was like a huge lover of the real, real massive customer and had actually been in touch with Rachi like, seven years before I started. And I had written them a fan letter, her and Julie, like, literally on LinkedIn and was like, I think you guys are like the future of this whole thing. I think what you're doing is really transformative because to me, what I had never seen before as somebody had been shopping at Goodwill is like, in high school and then Upper east side consignment shops. As I moved through my life, consignment and resale was something that as someone who lives on, well, cancer care. Cancer care, yeah, cancer.

Erica Virink (19:43)

R.I.P.

Kristin Naiman (19:45)

Yes. I love that one. That whole stretch, like, I had a friend and I used to go in high school and college, and we were just like, hit the whole stretch. That is the truth. So I ended up, you know, I saw very quickly that for someone like me who loved that process so much. To see people doing it at scale in the way that it was being done was going to be really transformative to its possibilities. Because we, like, I now know working there that like your Average company moves 200 SKUs through their system a year, like Nike, right? It's like whatever, one of those might be a pair of Jordans, but it's. It's like per skew, we move a million through a month. And that's connecting. So if you think about that, like from a people perspective, it's like that's connecting one individual person who wants to part with something to one other individual person who wants that thing. One million a month. And I think that that to me creates a level of possibility and a scale for something that actually is like our most. One of our most ancient behaviors. Right. Like, it's kind of like this thing. Like the best ideas in the world are never new. They're like reinventions and new delivery systems of something really fundament. And I think there's something very, like, tender about something that's had some life in it. And I think that in the world we're living in today and what we're going through, I think people really crave that. And I think it's transformed how we engage with what we are calling consumption. You know, I mean, I think it's a different way to engage with stuff.

Sarah Shapiro (21:12)

Yeah.

Podcast Host (21:13)

I want to talk a bit about how it's benefited big fashion and big fashion brands. And Marissa, you touched on this for a minute with Hermes, but I think of it in the way Canal street look. The luxury brands don't like that. But in another way, it exposes those brands to people who might have never touched them before. And now you. You would sort of enter a luxury brand through fragrance or a keychain or whatever. But you can probably have something real if you save up a little money. It might be cheaper than a pair of sneakers if. If you're smart. I think I have an Hermes, a Margiela era Hermes tote that I think I paid $400 for. On the realreal that. I mean, it's criminal, but it's amazing. And that was my. And then I ended up buying a more expensive Hermes bag. It's still not that expensive, but, you know, the point being that it, it gets you in the door. What do you all think about that? And, and what is. Is there a tipping point where, you know, there are so many secondhand neverfulls available that, like, it's harder to sell the full Price ones like feel free to jump in.

Sarah Shapiro (22:30)

I'll jump in for a second. And the last point about I think there will continue. I don't know if the percentage of people will change. I do think there will always be a customer who wants that first experience or wants an experience at some point to be fresh, new, never bought, go into the store, have that experience. I think what the one of the more interesting details with consignment is that the brands no longer like have that control. So with beauty they still had maybe it was through Estee Lauder or you know, through some of the other brands but partners but they still had them pull in there. Same with sunglasses. They were maybe licensing out their name but they still had sign off on the visuals and some relationship there and a partnership with consignment they don't at all. They number one with consignment you can see sell an item over and over and over again and that handbag for example will keep making money. The brand won't get any of that. They get it the first time and not again if they're not owning that relationship. Additionally you are maybe having a connection with the real real and their customer service and maybe you're having a great experience. But still that brand doesn't. They have a little bit of that connection but it's not the same level when they go directly and that's what I think is interesting. There is if the brands are going to say hey, we're missing out on this. Some of them have but I feel like not in a big way yet.

Marissa Meltzer (24:03)

One thing I've always felt really bonded to with the RealReal report is the idea of fair condition and that, you know, that's the sort of well used condition of certain, you know, clothes and bags as an entry point into a new designer. I've always been someone that loves a beat up bag because I feel like then I'm less kind of ginger with it and you know, it's sort of done the hard work before me and it also as an added bonus is much cheaper than kind of a mint condition bag. And you see that with Hermes and Chanel and Louis Vuitton and it's a great way to sort of enter into a higher echelon of designer and yeah.

Kristin Naiman (24:54)

I think to build on that too. It's like there's this sense that somehow because the brand is not owning the relationship with the second and third generations of purchase that somehow it's taking something away from them. But actually there's a lot that we see that shows that keeping those products safe in circulation and the desire high for them fuels the desire for the main direct primary market relationship. And so I think there's something too small about the way brands look at it. If they think it's detrimental, I think that there's a much bigger system that can be created that actually, you know, one of the things we see a lot is like prices being driven up for exactly the reasons you guys were talking about, which is like, I'm going out into the primary market and I need a dress for this event and I can buy the row or I can buy x middle market brand. I can pay this amount or I can pay that amount. We're really hearing people say and talk about this idea and they're telling their luxury managers and people that come to their houses to collect their stuff that they chose the row dress because they know, because they've been told that the resale value is higher, it retains it better. So in this Kelly blue book way, you're like, if I think I'm going to wear that dress four times, then it might make more sense to pay double for it because I might get, you know, 2/3 of it back if it's the right brand and the right choice. So there's a level in which for certain brands it's actually fueling. And I think, I think that that adjustment in the viewpoint is coming and beginning because the customer is seeing it. I think the brands aren't really seeing it yet, but I think they will because the customer is behaving.

Podcast Host (26:31)

Sarah wrote an item when Michael Ryder's Celine debut happened that in resale there was a lot of interest in Phoebe Celine bags and just Celine in general. And I, I bought a Celine box bag on the realreal in, in lipstick pink.

Kristin Naiman (26:47)

Yeah.

Podcast Host (26:48)

And maybe it's yours. Was it lipstick?

Marissa Meltzer (26:50)

No, mine was ivory.

Podcast Host (26:51)

Yeah, that, that's more you. And it was totally inspired. And the line sheets just came into the stores for the first time. His first collection. And I'm totally buying one of the shirts like I for sure am. And that made me excited about the color and all, all of that. What do you think, Erica? What do you think the customer feels about. Does, does it help burnish the, their relationship with these brands?

Erica Virink (27:25)

I think there's like one example I can point to in my substack in particular, which is a few months ago I wrote a letter just about secondhand beat up monogram, Louis Vuitton print. And for a lot of my readers it was kind of like a rediscovery of that print. And it's so approachable, like the price point on, like a little keychain or a tiny bag. And the feedback I got was, I can't wait to buy this tote as a work bag. I wouldn't feel afraid to throw it around. I love how it's already worn in. It's so Olsen twins, etc. So I think that people feel empowered to approach brands that they would otherwise be nervous to, like, meet a sales associate and accept a glass of champagne from.

Kristin Naiman (28:10)

I think there's also an element to build on that, that it's like their brands have different eras. Right. And to your point, it's like there's this. There's the Phoebe and then there's the, you know, Hetty, and then there's the. Right. It's like, as it goes, Hetty's alone.

Podcast Host (28:22)

As he has said on Instagram.

Kristin Naiman (28:25)

But either which way what happens is that those eras are all kept alive on the RealReal. And so there's also something that happens from. It keeps the heat up and it keeps the interest in those different eras up. And you can argue that brands stay alive. Like Dries is a really good example, right? It's like Dries has such a devoted customer, and that customer had such a particular relationship with Dries. And there's. We saw a huge spike in Dries after Dries retired, and we see a range of spikes when, when creatives retire. But I think that that reality makes it so that the discoverability actually allows for things like the Michael Ryder thing to get hotter and bigger, faster because there are people already in there looking and people discovering stuff. The. The Chloe Paddington, we saw like a steady rise of that over, like, the six to eight months before they re released it on the market, on the Runway. Excuse me. And then, and then it, you know, sort of crescendoed and it's been up ever since. But like, you know, if designers are taking the cultural temperature, the cultural temperature is happening anyway, and we're already, like, seeing it on the real real. And so actually it helps those designers because the momentum already builds. And by the time it's out there, the desire is hotter, it's higher.

Marissa Meltzer (29:36)

I love the idea of sort of arbitrage of bags.

Podcast Host (29:40)

I.

Marissa Meltzer (29:41)

This is going to be very name droppy, but, you know, think of it as my, like, glorious life that you get to participate in and I don't. I have to pay for my own health insurance. So I, I was in Venice about a week ago profiling Marc Jacobs and Sophie Coppola. It's on the New York Times now.

Kristin Naiman (30:02)

And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Marissa Meltzer (30:03)

And I mentioned that I had one of the Louis Vuitton Marc Jacobs Sophia bags, which is sort of like a sort of redone speedy that can be purchased for a pretty good deal on the RealReal, considering how gorgeously made they are. There's a.

Podcast Host (30:23)

There's a key.

Marissa Meltzer (30:24)

It's, like, lined in suede. It's a really, really beautiful bag that comes in some amazing colors. And that's.

Podcast Host (30:31)

Do you have red or navy?

Marissa Meltzer (30:32)

Navy, obviously.

Sarah Shapiro (30:34)

Everybody's searching now. I bet. I was like, it's such a great bag.

Erica Virink (30:37)

I think you just saw my dream bag.

Sarah Shapiro (30:39)

It's a really good cabinet.

Kristin Naiman (30:40)

I was like, that's a good idea. It's.

Marissa Meltzer (30:42)

It's a good kind of.

Erica Virink (30:44)

Let's not drive up interest. No, I want.

Sarah Shapiro (30:46)

That's the thing.

Marissa Meltzer (30:47)

That's what we can all do. And so I was sort of like, I bought one used a few years ago because I'd always really loved it. And they were like, oh, yeah, that bag. And you can kind of have this moment where you anticipate, for those of us who are really savvy, like, you know, buy low, sell high. And not that I want to sell this bag, but I definitely got it at an insanely good price.

Kristin Naiman (31:17)

And you're basically saying it's a system that rewards knowledge, which I think is very cool.

Marissa Meltzer (31:22)

I would say it's a system that rewards knowledge, which is amazing because it's like, you're worth reading something like line sheet, where you're like, oh, this.

Podcast Host (31:30)

Or Liana Sattenstein, who is kind of tracking exactly what she just did, a big profile of Marc Jacobs collectors, which I thought was interesting. She was very early on the Michael Kors Seline. Yeah.

Erica Virink (31:43)

That buggy bag, which I also have.

Marissa Meltzer (31:45)

A sold so many of crazy Michael Kors Seline bag that's in my deep archive.

Lauren Sherman (31:50)

Wow.

Kristin Naiman (31:51)

The buy low, sell, buy low, sell high thing, I think.

Marissa Meltzer (31:54)

But I think there's something that's really there for the savvy customer, whether you want to just profit in terms of, you know, your own knowledge and, you know, buying something and selling it at a savvy time or just being able to be sort of like, I was there when, you know, if, you know, you know.

Kristin Naiman (32:18)

Just got a new puppy or kitten. Congrats.

Sarah Shapiro (32:20)

But also, yikes.

Kristin Naiman (32:22)

Between crates, beds, toys, treats, and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune, which is where lemonade pet insurance comes in. It helps cover vet costs. So you can focus on what's best for your new pet. The coverage is customizable, sign up is quick and easy and your claims are handled in as little as three seconds. Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a'llemonade.com pet your future self will thank you. Your pet won't. They don't know what insurance is.

Podcast Host (32:52)

Thanks for selling your car to Carvana. Here's your check.

Kristin Naiman (32:55)

Whoa. When did I get here?

Podcast Host (32:56)

What do you mean? I swear it was just moments ago.

Marissa Meltzer (32:58)

That I accepted a great offer from Carvana.

Podcast Host (33:01)

I must have time traveled to the future. It was just moments ago. We do same day pickup. Here's your check for that great offer.

Marissa Meltzer (33:07)

It is the future.

Podcast Host (33:09)

It's.

Sarah Shapiro (33:09)

It's the present.

Podcast Host (33:10)

And just the convenience of Carvana. Sorry to blow your mind. It's all good.

Marissa Meltzer (33:14)

Happens all the time.

Kristin Naiman (33:16)

Sell your car the convenient way to Carvana. Pick up. Times may vary and fees may apply.

Podcast Host (33:26)

So what should the brand's relationships mean be with secondhand sellers? The Real Real has partnered with big brands on various things. Kering at one point was an investor in the RealReal or maybe the family office. Don't. Don't fact check me. Anyway, they're on my mind because they had their general meeting today. The point being that for a long time in my mind what was going to happen was that the brands were going to kind of get hip to this and they were going to start buying lot more of the stuff on the secondhand market, refurbishing it and selling it for basically the same price that it cost when. When it was originally issued. The challenge with that in my mind has been that that costs a lot of money to do and so they're not making any profit off of it and it hasn't been worthwhile. Dries is a great example of they have in their store in la. I'm sure in a couple of the other stores that an archive section. I think that's really smart.

Marissa Meltzer (34:31)

My favorite Dries dress is from the archive store.

Podcast Host (34:33)

Yeah. So what do you all think? That how should brands engage? Because they can't compete with the Real Real on price or, or any of the other platforms on price. They can't really compete with inventory, but they have. I think most of them should be acknowledging that. You know, Chanel recently sued. Last year I wrote a lot about they sued. What goes. Is it what goes around comes around or what comes around goes around? You know and they won in the court. They won. I don't know if they had the store had to actually pay them, but they sue people all the time. Like, that's. It's very common. So how do you all think. And you all have very different perspectives. Erica, let's. Let's start with you. That the brand should be engaging.

Erica Virink (35:28)

Yeah, I don't really like a shop and shop. I'm thinking specifically of, like, Banana Republic, and their flagship store has this curated vintage Banana Republic section. I love it as a concept, but you lose all sense of discoverability, which I think is a huge token of pride of secondhand shopping. It's almost too easy. It's like fishing in a barrel. Is that the saying?

Podcast Host (35:52)

I would say that I don't mind it because I'm lazy and I like stuff to be clean.

Erica Virink (35:57)

I think the price is what bothers. There's something about, like, yeah, like.

Podcast Host (36:01)

Like buying, like, a $250 Abercrombie shirt from 1994. I'm like, no.

Sarah Shapiro (36:08)

Yeah.

Erica Virink (36:08)

But I think I'm the cancer care voice of, like, I want to go out and sift through the racks. And I think I would love to see a brand celebrate that sort of discoverability or the brand in the wild, but I haven't really seen that from a luxury brand.

Podcast Host (36:26)

Sarah, what do you think?

Sarah Shapiro (36:28)

I'm trying to. To think on this.

Kristin Naiman (36:31)

I.

Sarah Shapiro (36:32)

The one thing I keep thinking is, like, I bet coach could do something really fun here because they've had their Coachtopia, which I think is the dead stock fabric. So it would be interesting to see what they do. I think it would be really hard also, because the other thing, as you highlighted with real. Real. A million individual skus, like, my brain is just, like, overwhelmed with that. So for a brand to take something like that in house would be incredibly difficult, and they wouldn't have the expertise. I think there's some interesting ways I've heard of ebay was partnering with a couple brands like Erdem and, like, get it and Altruzara and getting the products back on the Runway, I think that's, like, an interesting highlight. I also think the way that Dior has done some of their museum exhibits has been really nice. Is like a retrospective. And maybe even, like, with Celine now, being able to see the new and the old together and be able to see the kind of direction over the years in a shoppable way could be really interesting. And I don't think that has to be done. That there is a way to do that both in house and with a partner, like, the real real or somebody doing something. So I Would like to see something interesting.

Podcast Host (37:53)

I bet that searches for Dior bar jackets are already going up because I'm on. I'm like, I really need a bar jacket. Kristin, how do you want. Because I'm sure you're talking to these brands all the time. How do you think they should engage with secondhand generally and with you all in particular, because you do have so much inventory.

Kristin Naiman (38:16)

To me, it's like a very complimentary and should be seen as a synergistic relationship. I think there are a variety of different ways that can be engaged, but sort of to your point, I think that it. To me, it's like it has to. I don't see it. It's. Operationally, what the realreal does is, like, so different than the vertical retail that I've participated in. And I know that's like a very wonky answer to, like, a sexy question, but it's true. It's like getting that it's totally different businesses, and I think that they actually are really complimentary. And I think if the bigger brands could accept that secondhand is not a deterrent for their businesses, but ultimately like a crystallizer of their businesses and allows them in certain ways to see what works. You know, it's like we're in a. We have a lot of things to think about. Like, is the cadence and cycle of fashion really what it should be?

Podcast Host (39:07)

Are.

Kristin Naiman (39:07)

Are we doing collections in a. In a rhythm that actually the consumer can absorb? And there's a lot to be learned in the secondary market about that, and there's a lot to be strengthened. And I think you can make a really healthy business by noticing what's happening there and having a synergistic relationship. And I think that is the mind shift that I would love to see. And, you know, that's probably me and maybe me on behalf of the realreal. But, like, as a consumer, as someone who loves stuff, I want to see them all work, you know, but differently.

Podcast Host (39:35)

Well, I think a great example of this is Marc Jacobs Heaven would not exist if secondhand wasn't so big. And somehow the people in there were able to see what was happening on the secondhand market. Not even. There isn't a lot of Marc Jacobs from the 90s to buy. Like, I look for the. This one dress from 1998 that. Well, they just. Not. Not even a lot of mark by mark from the 90s, I don't think. But no, this is a. A Marc Jacobs dress from 98 that I will never buy. And they'll. It was probably Only a sample, but, but the point being that they were able to identify that there was something happening in the market that made sense around like the essence of Marc Jacobs. And he also allowed them to sort of have the creativity to do it around him. He wasn't the one driving that project. And I think that's like a good example of it all working together. I do want to ask one really annoying question. I'm sorry we have to bring this up. I hate talking about it, but I think we need to talk about tariffs because I've been thinking about it so much because there was some stat on NPR that we linked to that shipments to the US since this, since last week of individual packages has gone down 80%. And I was just thinking about the fact that like I buy stuff from the UK and Europe all the time and I'm just not going to do that anymore. I'm just going to wait till I go to Paris for fashion week and buy and bring an extra suitcase and buy it and come back and all of that stuff. And who knows what that 80% actually means, but it was significant. And then I was thinking about all of the people who, all of the Etsy and Vestaire and all the peer to be peer selling platforms where you're buying stuff from Europe or Asia is a very big market for handbags in particular Japan. So much of that stuff coming through, my husband has some like magazines or something coming from Japan. They're sitting in customs right now. And then also thinking about the consumer and just the ecosystem around that, I feel like the real, real in particular and US based companies are in a good position because you have a lot of inventory that you can get and people, there's no worry in most of your or a lot of your customers are in the US So that that puts you in a better position than some of the other players. But generally, I mean, who knows, hopefully this thing will go away. That's what I keep thinking. Maybe they'll just realize that it's detrimental and stop it. But how is this going to affect the broader market if companies like the RealReal or ThredUp or whatever can't source from Japan? Or again, I feel like US based companies in this case are in a better position but more generally like.

Lauren Sherman (42:49)

What'S going to happen?

Podcast Host (42:50)

Krista, I don't know if you can really answer this.

Kristin Naiman (42:53)

I can answer. I can give you, I'll give you the answer I have which is that to me, I think that when you look at the tariffs, you have to look at it Like a holistic fashion ecosystem. You can't look at it by just the main brands, just the resale market, because ultimately we are kind of all in it together. Right. And so, and so I think that while tariffs, you can argue that tariffs have been good for us, I think we are in a position right now where I think that part of why the business has been so good has so much to do with everything that's going on. And the tariffs are one piece of it. But we've had a lot of outreach that's like, oh my God, is it because of the tariffs? And that you're business is. Is really so great? And you're like, no, it's like that's one piece. That's like a small factor. And, and in a macroeconomic system, that's complicated. But I think when you look at it from a holistic perspective, it's not. The tariff situation is going to slow down the general fashion system. And that isn't good for anybody. And I don't. I think that that's something that everyone has to sort of be in cahoots about how to solve. You know, I don't know if any.

Podcast Host (44:03)

Of you want to weigh in on this. Sarah.

Sarah Shapiro (44:05)

I mean, my mind starts going when I listen to the realreals recent quarterly earnings about how it can also benefit resale companies. Because now the price that they're comparing it to and looking at how should we be pricing this, there can be a nice margin in there. So I do think there's lots of different factors involved in this. And then also consumers are making the choice every day how to spend their money. And so there could be this price, you know, thinking about where you're going to, what is worth it to really spend on, and maybe that new never fall is fun, is something you really desire. But like, if you can instead buy it secondhand and then also throw in a pair of shoes like for the same price, that's great. So there's so many different factors in there.

Kristin Naiman (44:58)

I think that, you know, we were seeing even before the tariffs a delta between what the threshold in the market was for what people wanted to pay versus what the primary market was charging for certain things. And so while the tariffs like in increase that, I think it is part of a bigger. It's part of a bigger thing going on in fashion, which is where are those prices? Why are those prices where they are and are they tenable and realistic for enough people to make it a viable business for those businesses? And that's bigger than tariffs, for sure.

Podcast Host (45:28)

I think it's a behavior thing. And that's why when. When you say that, that you. It's a multitude of factors. It is also that the realreal and other re. See and all these places changed people's behavior and it empowered the consumer in a way. So it. It's interesting. Everything that's happening with the broader luxury market and the stocks have gone up in the last couple of weeks. People are really excited about this new caring CEO. People are excited about all the new designer debuts, especially at lvmh Today in France. Yesterday in France, they pushed out the Prime Minister at a vote of no confidence. He's only been there for a year and a half. And Sarah, that happens all the time.

Sarah Shapiro (46:18)

Sure.

Podcast Host (46:19)

But like, that's an issue when that. When that country's major output is Veblen goods. Like, that is what they make. So it's all connected. We don't really cover tariffs that closely online sheet because I just think there's no point because nobody knows what they're talking about and we only want to write stuff that helps you or is interesting. But the point being that, like, all of this is happening at once. The secondhand market becoming a bigger part of the way customers shop, the prices of primary goods getting to a point where billionaires are like, I don't. I'm not paying this. It's stupid. The lack of creativity in Europe and all this stuff that's happening politically, it's all connected.

Kristin Naiman (47:07)

Totally. One of the other things we see a lot is there's like, definitely we hear back from people that they're looking for stuff secondhand and specifically vintage because they think the quality is way better. And they think that, like, a cashmere sweater from 20 years ago from Barney's private label or something is going to be a better cashmere sweater than something they can get today. And I think that perception is a systemic problem. Like, I think there's a bigger thing going on about, like, what do we produce? How do we produce it, how do. And you know, to be fair, like, I say that not in a way that's like that. The. It's like, I think it's really hard for brands to make the money that they need to make. And I think those prices aren't going up out of, like, pure greed. I think there's a lot of difficulty in getting to the level of quality you would want. I. And. And being able to charge a reasonable price for it.

Podcast Host (47:58)

Yeah, look, these are businesses and I was looking at a vogue, and we really have to wrap Up. But I want to do one fun question. I was looking at a Vogue from 88 and I looked at the prices of the dresses and I did a, I did an inflation thing and look, the dresses were $6,000 then. People didn't buy a dress every week. Like the problem is when you go to Target and buy a pair of jeans for $30, you're basically paying negative $20 for the jeans. Like a pair of jeans at Target should probably cost $100 or 150 or $200 and jeans that cost you under $50 should probably be 800. You shouldn't just buy. You shouldn't buy as much. But, but. And Terry Egans wrote for. Did a couple columns, guest columns for Line Sheet. And she spoke about like this also has to do with the rise of fast fashion and people just thinking you.

Lauren Sherman (48:56)

Need a bunch of stuff all the time.

Podcast Host (48:58)

And, and I do think that the secondhand market has retrained people a little bit to look, want certain things and be excited for a specific thing. I would love to know if you all are wearing vintage tonight or secondhand. What piece are you wearing? Marissi, I know you're head to toe, right?

Marissa Meltzer (49:20)

Or the bally shoes are not vintage. The skirt is from thank you. Have a good day. Which is in Tribeca. It's or CB Philo era Celine store manager who has her. Her own line. And this is from like, I don't know, like a 1930s curtain or something turned into a dress. And then I have. I hope everyone has like I do a gay 20 year old godson who worked at Desert Vintage over the summer. And he sent me this shirt and was like, you gotta, you got.

Kristin Naiman (49:59)

It's.

Podcast Host (49:59)

You gotta have it.

Marissa Meltzer (50:00)

So I bought it and it's a 1920 shout out to Reed.

Podcast Host (50:04)

He's a fashion.

Marissa Meltzer (50:06)

I know he's like fashion people's number.

Podcast Host (50:08)

One gonna be on fashion.

Marissa Meltzer (50:09)

I know he's perfect. He goes to wash you. He's amazing. But yeah, so he was like, you have to get this shirt. Which he, he knows me too well. I've raised him too well since his, you know, we've known each other since he was like 10 years old. So anyway, so I got the shirt and then, and then I have like a 1950s Kelly bag back there. Cash got refurbished at Re. See, go see Sophia if you need to get your Hermes bag that got rejected by Hermes because it's too old and decrepit that you need to have refurbished. But I'm excited to hear what everyone else has.

Kristin Naiman (50:51)

So I'm. I have my like, real, real hacks. And one of my real, real hacks is that I. A lot of the little designers that I really love, I wait, I find them and then I wait until they get on the realreal and they tend to get on there and come on quick, and then they go really quickly. So the tank top is this designer in Paris called Indress.

Sarah Shapiro (51:09)

We love in dress in this family. Yeah, Amanda. Got it.

Kristin Naiman (51:12)

Yeah.

Podcast Host (51:13)

Our friend Amanda Dobbins, our best friend.

Marissa Meltzer (51:15)

In common, frequent fashion people guest.

Podcast Host (51:18)

I came back, I was like, give me a lowdown on what you bought. She's like, I went to the store in dress. I was like, of course.

Kristin Naiman (51:23)

So in dress on the realreal, it's like a really good hack. And so in dress. And then my shoes are actually Rachel Comey, who is another designer who I love and feel devoted to and feel like you can get insane amazing deals on the realreal from her. And then the scarf is actually not vintage, which is very unusual for me. But one. So Dries is my all time forever favorite. And I had been saying to my team that I hadn't bought anything new except for one pair of shoes in the last, like, I don't know, three years. And this fall I was like, I'm gonna go and find a couple things that I'm gonna keep for all that time. So I went and bought this scarf at Dries. Yeah, that's it.

Erica Virink (52:08)

Okay. I'm normally better about this, but I'm quite pregnant, so. Shava Studio little set.

Podcast Host (52:15)

Amazing.

Erica Virink (52:16)

Of course.

Podcast Host (52:16)

Hey, that's. Someday will be a great vintage.

Erica Virink (52:20)

Yeah. But all my accessories are vintage. And this is from the realreal. It's a little Cartier tank that I wear every day.

Podcast Host (52:29)

I had a feeling the tank was.

Kristin Naiman (52:31)

Yeah, it gives that.

Erica Virink (52:32)

Yeah.

Sarah Shapiro (52:34)

So my jacket was real, real purchase. Totem. And then I was thinking my handbag, which I also have here, is totem. But I also bought it resale, but because it's a navy suede and I could not find the navy suede in a store. So that's the other thing as you talk about your hack. Sometimes I fall in love with things that are a season or two old and they don't make the color anymore. And once you have your mind set on something and then a lot of my jewelry is secondhand but from family members that I love. So I think that's, you know, while that's not a part that I think about purchasing jewelry that has meaning to. It has also been really important in my fashion life.

Podcast Host (53:18)

Yeah. One of the most satisfying things about secondhand this is Phoebe era Chloe, and I'm wearing it with Phoebe Filo trousers is that I was 20, 21 years old during or 20 years old during Phoebe Chloe. I wasn't buying any Chloe at that time. And so being able to have those experiences, I bought when Mel Ottenberg did Curation for the RealReal, I bought a Saint Laurent Tom Ford dress that I still haven't worn. It's like, very. It's not my style. It's so cool though. But it was, you know, that kind of stuff that, like, you didn't get to experience. Or if there is something that you've been looking at for, like, looking for 15 years and it pops up, it's really magical. And it's one of the last places where you can have that experience in fashion. Unless you, like, go to Charvet, which we all know is the best store.

Kristin Naiman (54:13)

The best. Also, there's another factor in all that that I really love, which is like, I have a pair of Chloe sandals that I bought first. My friend had them and I was desperate for them. I was like, where did you get those? What are those? And then I found them on the real real maybe 10, like 10 years ago, 12 years ago. And I bought them once and then I wore them through and I bought them again and I wore them through. And it like, really challenges the sense of, like, seasonality being finite, meaning that you have to be done with something just because it's no longer being offered in a seasonal way. I think the RealReal has really upended that. And to your point, it like, allows you to traverse these time travel spaces and go to the places that actually work for you for so many years. Working. I would, like, wait until the earth tones came around. I was like, okay, when are the earth tones coming back in style? Because I'm like, done. I have no more like, my rust sweaters or holes in them and everything. And now you're like, I don't need to wait until they come back around. I can go get them when I need them.

Podcast Host (55:08)

You know, a retail is alive and well. It's just not in the places that we normally expect. Everyone, thank you so much. Especially thank you to Kristen and the RealReal for setting this up. This was so fun. Thank you all for being here. I see so many familiar faces and it's really nice. I hope you all had a fun time and we'll do it again soon.

Lauren Sherman (55:31)

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck.

Podcast Host (55:41)

Co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben.

Lauren Sherman (55:44)

Landy and director of editorial operations operations, Gabby Grossman.

Podcast Host (55:48)

An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.

Kristin Naiman (55:57)

ABC Wednesday Shifting Gears is back. He has arisen. Tim Allen and Cat Dennings return in television's number one new comedy with a star studded premiere, including Jenna Elfman, Nancy Travis and hey buddy. A big home improvement reunion welcome.

Podcast Host (56:17)

Oh boy, that guy's a tool.

Kristin Naiman (56:20)

Shifting Gears season premiere Wednesday, 8, 7 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.