The Row vs. Donni

Summary

Fashion People: The Row vs. Donni
Episode Release Date: May 13, 2025
Host: Lauren Sherman
Guests: Sarah Shapiro (Puck’s Retail Correspondent)

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Fashion People, host Lauren Sherman teams up with retail correspondent Sarah Shapiro to delve into the dynamic shifts within the fashion industry. Titled "The Row vs. Donni," the discussion navigates through significant topics such as international tariff adjustments, executive transitions at major brands, the rise of emerging labels, and the potential revival of iconic department stores through television adaptations. The episode offers listeners an insider's perspective on the evolving landscape of a multi-trillion-dollar business.

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1. US-China Tariff Agreement and Its Implications
Timestamp: 03:54 – 07:30

The episode kicks off with a discussion on the newly reached US-China tariff agreement. Lauren Sherman prompts Sarah Shapiro to shed light on the specifics:

Lauren Sherman [07:10]: "Can you just very, very quickly explain what the US-China tariff agreement entails?"

Sarah elucidates the details of the agreement, explaining that:

Sarah Shapiro [04:33]: "There is a 90-day pause which will bring the tariffs down to 30% for Chinese imports, previously at 14.5%, and China is reducing their tariffs on American goods from 12.5% to 10%."

Lauren and Sarah discuss the broader implications, highlighting how such fluctuations disrupt supply chains and impact businesses across the board. Sarah emphasizes the confusion arising at ports and the challenges faced by both consumers and retailers due to inconsistent duties and shipping uncertainties.

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2. Executive Changes at AWAY: Welcoming Jessica Shanazi
Timestamp: 07:31 – 11:19

Transitioning to corporate leadership, Lauren introduces the topic of Jen Rubio stepping down as CEO of AWAY, a prominent luggage brand. Sarah provides insights into the appointment of Jessica Shanazi as the new CEO:

Sarah Shapiro [08:59]: "The new CEO is Jessica Shanazi. She was the president of Dyson’s Americas business and has experience with brands like LVMH and Amazon."

Lauren inquires about the strategic directions Shanazi might bring:

Sarah Shapiro [10:39]: "Under Shanazi, AWAY is launching in Nordstrom with 60 stores and expanding its online presence, aiming to increase visibility and accessibility."

The conversation underscores the potential for AWAY to escalate its market presence under Shanazi’s leadership, drawing parallels between Dyson’s disruptive product strategies and AWAY’s growth ambitions.

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3. Spotlight on DONNIE: A Rising Direct-to-Consumer Brand
Timestamp: 14:26 – 22:48

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to examining DONNIE, an emerging D2C brand gaining traction among a discerning customer base, particularly affluent mothers aged 30 to 50. Lauren and Sarah explore the brand's unique market positioning and cultural resonance.

Lauren Sherman [14:54]: "What makes DONNIE so fascinating is its appeal within specific communities, even though it's not widely visible in mainstream retail spaces."

Sarah provides a detailed overview:

Sarah Shapiro [15:19]: "DONNIE is sold primarily online and through selected retailers like Revolve and Shop Up, making it exclusive yet accessible to those in the fashion industry."

They discuss DONNIE’s recent popularity surge, noting its identifiable designs and high-quality materials. Sarah estimates the brand’s revenue and highlights its standout products, particularly the taffeta pull-on pants that have become a staple among fashion-forward consumers.

Sarah Shapiro [18:22]: "The current estimate for DONNIE’s revenue is between $10 to $20 million, with their taffeta pants being a standout item due to their perfect blend of comfort and style."

Lauren shares anecdotal evidence of DONNIE’s presence in elite private schools, emphasizing its status symbol among affluent families.

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4. Barney’s New York: Potential Television Revival
Timestamp: 26:52 – 34:23

The conversation shifts to Barney’s New York, exploring the announcement of a potential television show adaptation produced by industry veterans Josh Schwartz and Stephanie Savage.

Lauren Sherman [27:16]: "The first project is a show about Barney's New York, produced in partnership with Josh Schwartz and Stephanie Savage, known for Gossip Girl."

Sarah offers a critical perspective on the show's viability:

Sarah Shapiro [28:50]: "While nostalgia is a strong pull, the challenge lies in authentically portraying the essence of Barney’s without losing its unique charm. Compared to impactful shows like Gossip Girl, it remains to be seen if it can capture a similar cultural influence."

Lauren and Sarah debate the potential success of such a show, considering whether it could reinvigorate the brand or simply serve as a nostalgic fragment without substantial industry impact.

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5. The Row: Navigating Minimalism and Market Evolution
Timestamp: 35:00 – 45:17

A deep dive into The Row, a minimalist fashion brand, anchors the latter part of the episode. Lauren discusses her recent column on The Row, questioning its longevity and adaptability in a fashion landscape increasingly favoring edgier, sexier aesthetics.

Lauren Sherman [38:02]: "What are the prospects for The Row long term, especially as the fashion conversation shifts towards more provocative styles?"

Sarah analyzes The Row’s current strategies and market position:

Sarah Shapiro [38:10]: "The Row remains influential through its styling and versatile pieces. Their latest lookbook emphasizes innovative layering techniques, keeping the brand relevant."

They explore The Row’s cautious yet strategic growth, highlighting its expanded product lines in handbags and shoes. Sarah contemplates the brand's future, suggesting that to stay pertinent, The Row must balance its minimalist roots with the evolving desires for more dynamic and expressive fashion.

Sarah Shapiro [44:59]: "Balancing the core minimalist philosophy with current fashion trends is crucial for The Row to maintain its market position and appeal."

Lauren and Sarah conclude by reflecting on The Row’s potential to transition into a more fashion-forward brand without sacrificing its foundational design principles.

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Conclusion

In "The Row vs. Donni," Fashion People delivers a nuanced exploration of pivotal developments shaping the fashion industry. From international trade agreements and executive leadership transitions to the emergence of influential new brands and the reinvention of legacy stores, Lauren Sherman and Sarah Shapiro provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the forces driving change in fashion. This episode not only informs but also invites reflection on the delicate balance between tradition and innovation in maintaining relevance in a fast-paced market.

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Notable Quotes

• Lauren Sherman [07:10]: "Can you just very, very quickly explain what the US China tariff agreement entails?"

• Sarah Shapiro [04:33]: "There is a 90-day pause which will bring the tariffs down to 30% for Chinese imports, previously at 14.5%, and China is reducing their tariffs on American goods from 12.5% to 10%."

• Sarah Shapiro [08:59]: "The new CEO is Jessica Shanazi. She was the president of Dyson’s Americas business and has experience with brands like LVMH and Amazon."

• Sarah Shapiro [15:19]: "DONNIE is sold primarily online and through selected retailers like Revolve and Shop Up, making it exclusive yet accessible to those in the fashion industry."

• Sarah Shapiro [18:22]: "The current estimate for DONNIE’s revenue is between $10 to $20 million, with their taffeta pants being a standout item due to their perfect blend of comfort and style."

• Sarah Shapiro [28:50]: "While nostalgia is a strong pull, the challenge lies in authentically portraying the essence of Barney’s without losing its unique charm."

• Sarah Shapiro [44:59]: "Balancing the core minimalist philosophy with current fashion trends is crucial for The Row to maintain its market position and appeal."

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Stay Connected

For more in-depth analysis and updates on the fashion industry, be sure to follow Fashion People on Audacy | Puck. New episodes drop every Tuesday and Friday, providing you with the latest insights beyond the press releases.

Transcript

[Lauren Sherman]

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[Sarah Shapiro]

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[Sarah Shapiro]

Hi. Great to be back.

[Lauren Sherman]

How's it going? How was your weekend?

[Sarah Shapiro]

My weekend was great.

[Lauren Sherman]

Did you do a lot of channel checks or did you avoid. You've been really channel checking the world over, so.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yes, I, well, and I have a few channel checks planned for during the week this week. Sometimes it's easier for me to get to the stores during the week.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah.

[Sarah Shapiro]

But this weekend I did not hit up any.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm, I'm happy for you. We, we're going to talk about a few of your channel checks later that you've done previously. But to start really quickly on this tariff news, apparently China and the US have reached some sort of semi deal. I don't want to get too much into it because literally this publishes, we're talking Monday morning. This publishes Tuesday morning. It could have changed, but essentially they've can you just very, very quickly explain what the US China tariff agreement entails?

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yeah. So it sounds like there is. And again, who knows, because this continues to change. But a 90 day pause which will bring the tariffs back down to 30% for Chinese imports, which had been at 145%. And then China is reducing their tariffs on American goods that they had set at 125% to 10%. So this is to allow businesses to figure things out and potentially for deals to be had as well.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Okay. So let's not talk about what actually what the implications of this specifically are because again, I don't know. But the thing was I was talking this weekend with an executive. I just feel like the disruption of this wherever you live, whatever's happening, I assume the 90 day pause on the European tariffs is up soon. I know that there are a lot of brands that are getting or companies that are getting exceptions, things like that, but it's Just so disruptive to the businesses. And this executive was kind of like a lot of these companies, no matter, kind of no matter what happens, are not going to survive this because they've been spending all this time rearranging their supply chains. And then what if like this person said, what if they he decides Vietnam or Cambodia, which is where a lot of the bigger companies or a lot of the lower priced companies produce quite a bit of of stuff or even if you're not producing stuff there, you might have parts coming from these places. What do you think, you know, four years from now, what do you think the shakeout is going to look like of all this?

[Sarah Shapiro]

So I don't think a lot of these tariffs are impacting. The idea of just figuring out your supply chain is already needs to happen. Like it needs to just be diversified because of changes that happen and not being too reliant on one factory because even that factory could just go under, not even related to all the tariffs. The thing that I'm actually seeing the biggest impact on is all the confusion and what this is happening at the ports or shipping, not necessarily through the ports but just through, you know, FedEx and DHL and UPS and stores that ship direct like online e commerce, deciding if they're going to pause shipping to the US because what's going on and all the confusion and what duties are popping up when somebody received their package. That to me is where I'm actually hearing so much more of confusion and impact for the consumer and for stores as opposed to the tariffs directly.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, stay tuned. This is a developing story that we can't, we can't get rid of as much as we try the other there were there. You also had a piece in Monday's newsletter about Jen Rubio, the CEO of AWAY stepping down from that role. She was also one of the co founders of AWAY and became the CEO a few years ago after their original CEO exited her co founder in the business. Can you tell us a little bit about the new CEO of AWAY and what you think? I love any category where I see a real quote unquote white space as they love to say in the marketing world. And I think luggage is, there's Samsonite, there's Tumi, there's cheap stuff and then there's Ramoa or Ramova, whichever way you want to pronounce it. I think both are, are acceptable. But AWAY has really overtaken this market of like people who are too sensible or feel like Ramoa is too expensive but who could probably afford Ramoa. So it's like a, a pretty savvy customer and when I travel a lot I'm at the airport and there are just so many of these luggage bags. Can you tell me a little bit about how the company's doing and who this new CEO is and what you think she'll bring to the table?

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yeah. So the new CEO is Jessica Shanazi. I've had the opportunity to check in with her a couple times. But what I think is really interesting is her background. She was most recently based in Chicago and was the president of the Americas business of Dyson, which as we know from Dyson has quite a few products but in this space is really known for their airwrap and for their hair dryer. So again it is a product that disrupted an industry that came in from the outside and also is a little bit more expensive than some of the others. Although now the whole industry has come up I think around it and you have T3 and all the other players in there too. But it created another way to do a product and it also grew their business through third party retailers. They also have some of their own stores. So there's quite a lot of similarities between the businesses. Her background was also at, she's had stints at lvmh, Reachmont, Amazon. So all of these things that in addition to a new CEO coming in, she had joined Shehnazi, had joined the company in late 2024 and was already starting on some other new projects which are that they're going to be launching in Nordstrom 60 stores as well as online and that will get them much more, you know, people being able to view the product in person. And they will also be on Amazon stores or on Amazon were.

[Lauren Sherman]

They weren't on Nordstrom prior. They weren't in Nordstrom prior. I don't, I. Are you sure about that?

[Sarah Shapiro]

I. They currently have not been although it's launching now. I do not know if they weren't at some point. There are other brands like Base. So I mean if you think of the luggage space, there have been so many competitors that have come up. I often think of the luggage space so similar to like Casper and all the mattress brands that popped up. And so there have been other luggage companies that have popped up. You could certainly get a hard sided suitcase, rolling suitcase from other retailers but they have not been on Nordstrom before.

[Lauren Sherman]

That's fascinating. So you have this item on Monday and then you're going to talk to them more next week. So stay tuned for that. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites. Indeed's Sponsored Jobs help you stand out and hire fast. With Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster and it makes a huge difference. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Plus with Indeed sponsored Jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts, and you only pay for results. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more [e-mail] listen just go to indeed.com listen right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com listen terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. I'm Emma Greed and I've spent the last 20 years building, running and investing in some incredible businesses. The more success I've had, the more people started coming to me with questions. How do you start a business? How do you raise money? How do I bounce back from failure? On my new podcast, Aspire with Emma Greed, I'll be answering these questions and more through weekly conversations with the smartest minds out there. Listen to and follow Aspire with Emma Greed an Odyssey podcast available now, wherever you get your podcasts. The other thing I wanted to chat with you about is Donnie. This brand D O N N I. You have a big piece on Tuesday about Donnie which has become a big topic of conversation during our Friday editorial meetings. And also just among our, I'd say the subset of American customer 35 age 30 to 50, essentially, many of whom are moms. Happy Mother's Day by the way. I don't know if you saw the piece. Just a side shout out to the team at Vogue who published the Don't Call Me Mama piece, which it's fine and my kid calls me Mama. I don't want a fitness instructor calling me Mama. I don't wanna see Mama on a T shirt and I don't wanna see Mama anywhere where they say you got this mama. My friend Molly Creedon, who is a writer who has a full time job so she was never able to pitch the Mama dialogue story, but she has been wanting someone to write this. Why it's offensive to call someone Mama for the last three years. And now thank you to Vogue and Amanda Hess who is the author of this piece. Who who wrote the Mama thing. But anyway, there are a lot of moms wearing this brand dumb.

[Sarah Shapiro]

I'm aligned with you there. Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

So yeah. And. And if you love being called mama by your fitness instructor, that's okay too. I. It personally really bothers me and I find it annoying. But can you explain a bit for our listenership who has never heard of Donnie, what it is and why we are so interested in it. The Cut also just did a big piece on it. What makes this business so fascinating?

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yeah, I think it is. It's fascinating to me also because it depends on what community you're in. Either you're totally aware of this brand or completely unaware because it has, you know. So it's a D2C direct to consumer business. There's no stores that are Donnie stores. So she. The brand is sold directly. The founder is Alyssa.

[Lauren Sherman]

She does sell at some retail. Some retail, yes.

[Sarah Shapiro]

So that's what I was going to say. She is on Shop Up. She is on Revolve. There are some boutiques that also have it but it is pretty limited that you wouldn't just like you could walk down the street and run into a J. Crew store or madewell and it's not the same for that brand. So I have found like in my own community the people that wear Donnie tend to be somebody who is in the fashion industry in some way. So I don't. I personally am not seeing it at school pickup drop off or sports weekend games.

[Lauren Sherman]

I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna reveal my friend's school but let's just say this is a guy I know who is conn the fashion industry but doesn't. I wouldn't say works in the fab but is connected as you said so would be aware of this. And his wife works in fashion so says and. And goes to a school in his kid goes to a through kindergarten through 12 or preschool through 12 private school in the Valley that many of our listeners and you know, you definitely know someone. What. What does he say to. He said to me and this is a school with like quote unquote more creative types. But I asked around and it. It does seem to be popping up at a lot of the private school drop offs in la. Let me find what he said. He said what's up with Donnie? It's high key. The rich private school mom pickup pant. So I think and I think from I ran into when I was in New York I had brunch or breakfast whatever on it sounds like I don't. I was just talking to someone this morning about. I don't really go to brunch Like I don't, I don't think of it as brunch but I have breakfast in Tribeca late though.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Right?

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, like you don't. So I eat like a 11am breakfast lunch situation usually.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Lauren Sherman]

I ran into Ruthie Friedlander, friend of the POD who is. Who actually worked with the. What's the founder's name? Alyssa Wasco.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Alyssa Wasco.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, Alyssa Wasco at Chanel because Ruthie used to work in PR at Chanel and then she. Alyssa was a visual merchandiser but she was wearing the taffeta pull on pants that I've also seen my friend Becky Malinsky wear on Instagram and seem to be. They did a big gifting it sounds like around them which she. You reported on. But the pull on taffeta pant is really cute. I find this brand very interesting and the reason a. It's. It just feels like a Sarah Shapiro coated brand. It's. It's like your sweet spot of a lot of heavy on the dtc. California entrepreneurial, also a decent sized business. Well, how much would you pin the business to at this point like in terms of revenue?

[Sarah Shapiro]

So the estimate that I have is 10 to 20 million. I asked for comment and they don't comment on their numbers as many brands don't. But I think that sounds accurate and I think if I can give a little bit of context about the pants because I will agree like the current pant is the taffeta. They did it in red and white and blue and white gingham. There's also solids and the colors are like corn or there's another blue, light blue color and they gorgeous flower blue.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's really. They're really pretty or like a really nice red.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yes, yes. So they get their colors really right. I think for a lot of this they're like piece dyeing and panel dyeing. So the construction is, you know, definitely thoughtful. It's made in la. But the pants back to the rib kick flare which is probably the one that is seen all over it drop off. It is recognizable even like the Vuori Performance pants. You know, it's the Vuori Performance pants also because it has that little V logo on it. Yeah, the white tag. These don't have any logo. But it is also so identifiable because it is a thick rib pant with the seam down the front very much like a high sport seam down the front and very much when that pant was totally taking off. This pant is the same silhouette and you know a rib kick flare has been popular As a popular in the 50s and 60s. Like, it is a style that comes back, but in this particular material, it also happens to be a great, you know, even though we're not saying mama pant, but, like, it's a great pant for that kind of thing, because you can put it on. It doesn't look like a piece of. Piece of athleisure or workout gear, but you could still go on a walk with it, be messy on the playground, go to work and look like you're wearing a regular pair of pants. And it's not like it's easy to throw in the wash. It's like all of those kind of things that made it fit. So these items have their moments and that they're identifiable. And I think that's like, an interesting marketing point for these brands.

[Lauren Sherman]

It's funny. So I surveyed people who go to Harvard, Westlake, Oakwood, Hollywood Schoolhouse, and the center in Los Angeles. And then also UCLA lab school, where we know people wear it because Laurel Panton, I would say, who's a writer and fashion editor and all these things and has a big substack. She's sort of the, like, poster child for these pants and. And this brand. I'm sure that Laurel is the first person that. To ever wear them that I. I saw. And, like, where the knits and all that stuff. My friend who goes to the center says and is a very discerning, let's just say discerning fashion customer. Former fashion editor says, I said, do people at the center wear Donnie? Assuming, no, but trying to get a sense of who's buying it. This person responds, not that I know of. I don't know anyone who wears that look. This person, I would say, is probably not looking at other people's clothes. I. Hollywood Schoolhouse, Oakwood, Harvard, Westlake, and UCLA Lab school all have Donnie in there. And what I think is interesting about this brand, the pant does look a lot like the. The ribbed pant does look a lot like the high sport pant. It fits. You have both. Right. So it doesn't fit the same way. The high sport pant is like, thicker, correct?

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yes. The high sport is thicker and feels much more. I don't think I would say like a professional pant, but, like, feels more like something. Whereas. And I. I love both of these. I mean, this. The kick flare pant. For anybody who wants to know details about me, I just love wearing this kind of silhouette.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. And you're petite, so it. It really works.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Well, I am five two. Yes. So. And The Donny One, I was fine with it at the full length, but I did end up getting it altered, and that worked fine. So that's the other thing. You can alter it. The High Sport, you can alter. But the Donny One, also, it just feels so much looser. Like, it feels almost like. I mean, not a pair of sweatpants, not a pair of leggings, so. But it's the same kind of, like, comfort feel.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, I get it. So what I think Alyssa has done. Alyssa Wasco, because Alyssa Zachary is the founder of High Sport. What Alyssa Wasco has done with this Donny brand, which obviously, I'm not a consumer of this brand. Like, I was seeing Ruthie in these taffeta pants. I was like, oh, I. They look so good. But honestly, I'm not. It's a little trendy for me. Like, I. I get too wrapped up in. I don't want something. I want to. When I buy something, I want to be able to wear it for the next four years on the regular. Like, I want to know that I'll still be wearing it four years from now. That doesn't mean I don't cycle stuff out. But when I buy stuff that's trendy, I tend to get very mad at myself. And so I really try not to. And so I. This. I love it all. I think it looks good. Her knits look really nice. Laurel, I remember sort of wearing the knits really early. And the thing I would say is she is sort of taking from a lot of the more expensive brands, like the Row High Sport Totem, which is like a diffusion of the row or what? Like, they're all sort of playing off the same things. And you can't say, like, it's really hard to say, like, this person copied this person, because all this stuff, none of it's original. It's just like sort of the flavor in the air. And what I think Alyssa Wasco's done really well is pick up the right colors. Like, she has a great sense of color. She has a great sense of silhouette and what people want and also what people are willing to. The price value equation. So the. The. How much people are willing to spend is a big part of this. And also, I don't want to reveal your whole piece. I think people should talk, should look at it. But the final thing is you. You did. Just because a lot of the stuff sells out. And the thing you and I have been talking about that. That Mickey Drexler is really imparted on me is if it sells out it means you didn't buy enough.

[Sarah Shapiro]

I mean, that's always my first question when I hear something sells out. It's like, how, how many did they actually make? I mean, that's your sell through of 100% is not great if you didn't buy that much of it.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, totally, totally. Okay, so more on Donnie in Tuesday's email. You should definitely. Everyone should check it out. It's a really fun, fun piece. In case you haven't heard, it's officially in Abercrombie Summer. The A and M vacation shop has everything on your packing mood board. I desperately need their new one piece, the A and F Marina. It's strapless, so flattering and paired with denim shorts will be my go to beach outfit this summer. Finally. Your suitcase isn't complete without finding that dress. You know, the one for the photo shoot. Abercrombie's boho dresses have that perfect beachy romantic look. Make it an Abercrombie summer shot. Their newest arrivals in store, online and in the app. Lowe's knows a thriving yard starts with quality care right now. Get Miracle grow 3/4 cubic foot all purpose garden soil for just $2 was 4 $4.58 plus get a free select EGO 56 volt trimmer or blower with the purchase of a select EGO 56 volt mower. The best yard starts with the best deals. Lowe's we help you Save. Valid through 514, excludes Alaska and Hawaii. SELECTION varies by location while supplies last really, really quickly. I wanted to chat with you about the Barney's announcement that there might be a Barney's New York television show. I have many more details in Monday's line sheet. The people who are producing this is this woman, Rovner, Susan Rovner, I believe her name is, who used to run NBC Universal. She has a production company and she partnered with Josh Schwartz and Stephanie Savage. Who are the. The people behind the original Gossip Girl and the Gossip Girl reboot and a bunch of other stuff. But most people know them from Gossip Girl.

[Sarah Shapiro]

The O.C.

[Lauren Sherman]

Did they do the O.C. also interesting. Okay, yeah. So they. The O.C. they have a first look do with a first look deal. Which it means what it sounds like it means. I was like, do I need to describe what this means in my piece? And I decided no, because it. It just means that you go to the. You go to the studio first. And if they don't want it, you could sell it elsewhere. But it's with Amazon and the first project they say they're doing is a show about Barney's New York. Let's not get into the details here because I did more reporting. You can find out exactly what's going on in, in my piece. But the question for you is, do you think this is a good idea in any form, no matter what happens? Because the thing about Josh Schwartz and 70 Savage, I talked to some of my Hollywood friends and I wouldn't call them sources. It's just people who know these people and are connected about this and they were like, well, they usually, they do get a lot of stuff done, like a lot of these things. I, I was talking to a writer the other day, said she's developed 10 things over the last five years and none of them have gotten produced. But she still, she's made a lot of money. It's just such a weird, a weird business. But it's not a weird business. Sorry, I don't want to offend anybody, but to me it is as someone who writes something and it gets published 20 minutes later. But there is a big chance this will actually happen. So do you think, what would you want out of a Barney's television series?

[Sarah Shapiro]

I mean, this is so tough because the nostalgia about Barney's is great, but, like, if you're not, if you don't, like, actually have the experience of being able to go into a Barney's and discover the new product, I don't know if it, it means much. But I will say that all of these shows in the same vein, like, I will watch any fashion show that comes out at least once, you know, give it a chance for the first episode to see if they can really nail what the world is like, what the behind the scenes are, all of that. But I don't know if it has the same pull that when, I mean, Gossip Girl, the reboot didn't have the same poll that the first Gossip Girl had in terms of like the impact on the industry. I mean, Blair Waldorf wore headbands and then everybody had to wear a headband. And I don't know if we see shows that have that same sort of pull. So rebooting a show or creating a show about Barney's, does that mean that, you know, Barney's comes back? I don't think so.

[Lauren Sherman]

Well, that's the question. And also, do we want. I've been writing about Barney so much lately, and there's going to be more because Gene Pressman, one of the former owners, the Pressman family, his dad founded Barney's. He has a book coming out in September. So this is going to just become a much bigger storyline for us. And I would just say I had a column a few weeks ago about Barneys, and because there's still Barneys in Japan, it's through a separate deal. It's been operating there since the 80s. But it looks sort of like the Barneys of 2016. After Mark Lee, who sort of the. The developer, Richard Perry, who bought Barney's and once told one of his. I was told. I don't know if Richard actually said this, but I was told by one of the Barney's employees that he was like, for me, this is like owning the Yankees. But Richard Perry owned it, and he enlisted Mark Lee, this amazing executive, to sort of remake Barney's. And the Barney's that he remade is the one that is still alive in Japan. And it's just, like, creepy. It's like it truly is like a zombie. You just. You look at it and it looks like nothing's changed in the last 10 years. But I just think. I don't know. I would be interested in. Have you ever read Judith Krantz's Scruples?

[Sarah Shapiro]

Do you know what? I don't think I've read it, but I know the lore. Yes. I'm a big reader, so good.

[Lauren Sherman]

You don't need to be a big reader to read Scruples, but Hillary Kerr recommended it to me years ago, and it's so good. It's, like, about Georgie. It's basically based on Giorgio, Beverly Hills, that big. That store that was on. I think it was on Rodeo for years, that was very famous, and it's. It's a fictionalized version, and it's basically a soap opera. I was just thinking about it the other day. Something else conjured it, and I feel like it could be really fun. I just don't think you need to use Barney's. The other thing, the. My deepest concern about it is what they're gonna put in the store. Because the biggest problem with fashion stuff generally is when there's a fashion show, a Runway show, like fashion television series, when there's a Runway show or there's a collection or there's, like. We've discussed at length on this podcast about Emily in Paris and what they get right about fashion, what they get wrong. I think the. The way Emily dresses is a little bit out there, but is extremely fun and a sort of exaggeration of what a PR girl who lives in Paris, who's American, would wear. But I. That doesn't bother me. I think that that's fabulous. The thing that bothers me is when they do like. It's kind of like writing a rock song for a TV show. If you don't get it right, it's really like. And most people get it right. Just don't. Just don't show the Runway. Don't do that if you have to have a whole store. Like, what was. What show was I watching recently? Oh, I watched this movie where the girlfriend starts dating a new guy and he's a fashion designer and they had the shop and the clothes are just. I was like, well, this is so bad. It just. That's what I'm nervous about. Like, what do they fill the racks with? Maybe they could CGI designer clothes onto the racks. But that is the part of it that I'm like, it would be better for them to do something set in the 80s or 70s where you could make it. That would cost a lot more money. Costume dramas are very expensive. But it just would be way more fun, I think, for it to be if they set it at Barney's in 1982 when they had all this Armani and all the Japanese designers and stuff on the racks. Or there's that store.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Did you ever see Mr. Selfridge? That show? I loved. I loved that show because it was.

[Lauren Sherman]

Wait, who was in it? Someone good was in it, right?

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yes. Oh, I. The same guy from Jeremy Piven.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I don't. Yeah, that. Yes. Yes. No, I did not watch it.

[Sarah Shapiro]

I loved seeing the behind the scenes of a department store and what it was like to run it. And there. The products, it was so old. Like, you wouldn't expect to see that.

[Lauren Sherman]

In like the late 1800s or something, right? Or the early. Early 1900s. Yeah. I mean, I think a really fun thing would be to do things set at Sharavari, which was like. It was this amazing store on the Upper west side owned by this family. And it was awesome. And it was like. All the cool people worked there. And it was like the 1980s. There was a. I'd be more interested in something like that. Or you could do Barney's too. Like, it's fine. It's just. I'm nervous for. What do you put on those racks also? It's just the whole thing is. Is I don't wanna. I don't wanna mention any of the plot details because I think what was originally reported is probably incorrect. And so I'm doing reporting as we speak to clarify. And so once I clarify a little bit and I'll keep up on this story, because it really is the cross section of all our interests. Sarah, we should run soon, but really, really, really quickly since we're talking about all of our favorite brands today. I did a column on Monday about the Row, and I think everyone should check it out. It's sort of an extension of the podcast I did about the Row with Misty from the Times, just discussing, like, what are the prospects for this brand long term? I think there are very few founders with such discipline and ability to stay the course. But I do. I kind of bring up this idea of that we don't think of the Row as being like a pandemic era or pandemic boom success story, but they really are, like, at the same time people. The reason people were buying sweatpants or the reason people were buying the Row is just slightly more niche customer because of the price. You know, it's prohibitive prices. But what happens when you become the sort of basics? Matt Schneier did a piece on them right before the Pandemic, actually, that was sort of about. You either shop at Uniqlo or the Row, or I think a lot of people shop at both. But what happens when that sort of basic, simple style is no longer the fashion conversation? And I think the conversation for minimalist fashion or people who like minimalism has become a lot more about, like, looking sexy, looking a little edgier. And that's been driven quite a bit by Phoebe Filo, but other designers as well. And you see it across the market now where there's just. And there's a great quote from Alexa Chung in a recent profile that, like, she didn't dress. She spent her whole 20s, like, trying not to dress sexy. And I think there is a thing happening in the culture where people who were probably not interested in bandage dresses in 2008 are now like, oh, I didn't wear a bandage dress in 2008. I'm 45 years old. I. I wanna wear something nice and, like, try to, like, not completely hide my body. And that's sort of the antithesis of a lot of the real silhouettes and things. I'm just curious, as someone who follows the market and follows all of these brands super closely, what you think about the current state of that business and where you think it needs to evolve in order to stay at pace with the culture.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yeah, I mean, I still see the impact on the Row on various brands. I mean, their most recent. And some of it is just their styling.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. So much the styling seeing.

[Sarah Shapiro]

You know, right now, I'm seeing so much of People stylist and fashion pieces talking about wearing multiple shirts at the same time. And that was very much what was in the last lookbook for the row and has been, you know, wearing the short sleeve and the tank over the long sleeve top, which is a different way of layering. But I also think back to the row with that. So I think they're still relevant in a lot of the parts there and then in terms of the business. I mean, their clothing also got very casual. And I think some customers are dressing. I don't know if I would say like suits and skirt suits again, but we're definitely dressing up again in that kind of way. And so if the row can also pivot towards that, I think they keep their customer engaged and keep growing.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, they'll definitely keep growing. I think they're right. Now, when you look. When you look at the lookbook, the styling is. Is really directional. So you're right, like the T shirt over the long sleeve, the like skater kind of 90s look, plaid shirt wrapped around the waist type thing. And it is giving other brands and it's giving people just a sort of guidebook. We don't have Lucky magazine anymore, but we have the Rose Lookbook and let to cat the best magazine in the world. But I think the thing that's interesting is they have been so careful about growth. They grew pretty slowly, especially at the beginning like this, before anyone knew that they had legit design chops. These are two celebrities who were making $400T shirts in 2009, or maybe they were $250 at the time, but they could have distributed even more widely than they did and blown up really fast. And they were careful and did slow, controlled growth. And I think during the pandemic, they kind of by accident a their handbag business finally really took off. And they became. It was the perfect confluence of things. People were sick of designer logo y handbags, and they made an alternative to Hermes that was like slightly more accessible, not only in terms of price, although now it's probably pretty similar. But in terms of you can just buy it online when none of us were really leaving our house. So you could get the Margot bag if you ordered it online. And then on top of that, it would the silhouettes and things and the way that they. They like a big shirt, a pair of slacks. I bought a couple pairs of the Igor khakis when they were really big, like that pleated pant that just became everything that became the silhouette of like post pandemic. And then the biggest Thing I think is, other than handbags, their shoe business is their shoes are amazing. Like, they're just, there's nothing else. I was just looking. We have a bunch of events coming up. I'm gonna buy a pair of shoes from them. Like, there isn't anyone else doing shoes the way they do them. Just exactly right. But I would say that, like, when I, when I was looking for something for this event, there wasn't anything that I was like, oh, I would like to wear this for an event. I. What your people are investing differently and it doesn't mean that like the row is going down. It's more about, to me and, and it was more of an existential question of, you know, they just raised a ton of money. At a $1.1 billion valuation, they sold a little under 40% of their business. The, the partners that they chose are long term thinkers. No one is pushing them to do anything. They understand this. This could literally be the next Chanel. Yes, the, the family that owns Chanel also invested in the row, but it literally could be the next Chanel. They're not going to push them in any way. I don't think from what I know about the, I don't know all the investors really well, but I know a lot about most of their investment philosophies. And. But I do think that one challenge is like, how do you go, how do you kind of reflect the culture? Because the thing that the RO is so good at is I think you sent through. They are doing this platform slide that looks very similar to the Steve Madden slide in the 990s. And I have a. I'm on a text chain with two editors and shoppers who were talking about should I buy it? It's it might cut my foot, blah, blah, blah, blah. I personally didn't like them in the 90s, so I'm not gonna buy those. But they are very good at like the Teva sand, the, the black strappy sandal that they did. That's a Teva. I never bought it, but I. Every single season I'm like, should I just get that? Because I need a sandal that looks elegant. I tried to buy a dupe and it was not good. I have a lot. I mean, all of my shoes are from there. Basically, I have heels of every height and they just do a really, really good job at making the best version of something that already exists. Whether that's like an elo bean boat and tote upgrade or a pair of a similar sandal to a Teva sandal and so I think that's what they're good at. But the thing is, they are very tuned into what's happening in the culture. And if the clothes don't reflect that, that could be a challenge for them. Not like a terrible challenge, but it is something as designers, like, they're, They've. From my reporting, I know they spend a lot more time in Paris than they used to, which is the center of the fashion world. They need to push themselves, I think, design wise. And that is, that's sort of what I got to. In the, in the piece that, like, they're not. They could go two ways. One is that they could be an artisanal brand, and one is that they could be a fashion brand, and maybe they'll choose to be an artisanal brand. But I think that they have the intellect and the rigor and the ability to be a real fashion brand, which is what they've been doing the last 10 years. I think they can take it further. And so this is an interesting moment for them because they have more power than ever, but they also have the, you know, they need to push themselves more in order to keep at pace with what's happening with, with fashion generally and what people want to wear.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yes. And balancing. Figuring out the balance between the fashion clothing business and then the shoe and accessory and handbag business and, you know, what are you most known for? And if the shoes and the handbags start to overtake, well, they probably already have the ready to wear.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing about that business is it's very exposed. In the US they have. And they have a lot of SKUs, which stock keeping units for everyone. It just means, like, can you explain SKU really quickly? And then we should, we should bounce.

[Sarah Shapiro]

But yeah, it also feels like nothing ever really goes away with the row. But stock keeping unit each, if you think there's skews and styles and skus are every single style in every colorway and every size gets its own SKU number.

[Lauren Sherman]

So the size gets its own SKU too. I didn't know that.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

Oh, wow.

[Sarah Shapiro]

So, I mean, different retailers do it different ways, but from what I grew up in my retail career, a style would be a T shirt and it would be across all styles and colors. That would be that style. And then the SKU would be broken down even further into the colorway and the size.

[Lauren Sherman]

I knew the SKU was colorway and style, but so. Oh, that's interesting. But anyway, they have a lot of SKUs. They have a Lot of styles. And they were. They're very heavily in all the department stores and distributed. And then also they don't have that many physical stores. They. They so. And, and a big reason for that is they're very careful about. They want it to be the right space. I personally think they should have a store in downtown New York. I was there. I mean, I'm there every other week, but I. In January, I was there for a day and had a day to myself and I went to the day I went to interview Mickey at Columbia and then I like spent the day shopping downtown and I messaged a friend who knows them and I said, why don't they have a store in Tribeca or something? Like, I don't want to go up all the way up to that breeze side today. A lot of times I find myself more and more in New York spending most of my time on that breeze side because it's really nice and I feel really old downtown.

[Sarah Shapiro]

But, well, Madison Avenue has also had a nice glow up.

[Lauren Sherman]

Yeah, it's lovely up there and it's just like a lot going on and it just feels really comfortable. But I don't, I don't have time to go up there a lot. And so. And this person said, oh, they just haven't found the right spit. And I was like, no, I'm sorry. There are a lot of amazing spaces in New York. Do a space downtown. Like one of the, the only stores I go to in LA is on Melrose Place. Like they. I go to the Row and I go to the Real real. And that's like basically and, and Scout and that's basically it. So I think, I wonder too if they will start to expand distribution. But it's just an interesting moment because they have more. They have more ability to do more and they also have the, the trust and the confidence of their investors. So they could do nothing. But it's like, what do they want to become? And you mentioned that they have a lot of carryover product, which is true too. Anyway, check out my piece on the Row. Check out Sarah's piece on Donnie. Check out all of our great stuff at online sheetuck News.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Every day there's something great. Five days a week.

[Lauren Sherman]

Every day.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Yes.

[Lauren Sherman]

And I'll catch you soon. Sarah, thanks for being on. Yeah.

[Sarah Shapiro]

Great to see you.

[Lauren Sherman]

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador Starting your own business can be intimidating. Suddenly you're wearing all the hats. Designer marketer, customer support, shipping expert. It's a lot. That's where Shopify comes in. Shopify is the global commerce platform powering millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US Shopify has your back. With hundreds of ready to use templates, you can launch a beautiful professional online store that looks and feels like you need content. Shopify's AI tools can help you write product descriptions, headlines, even enhance your product photos. Want to grow your reach easily? Create email and social media campaigns to meet your audience wherever they're scrolling. And with Shopify's world class support, you'll have expert help for everything. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com Odyssey podcast. Go to shopify.com Odysseypodcast shopify.com Odysseypodcast.