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- [00:00]
Dietitian
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- [01:46]
Lauren Sherman
Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet, and today with me on the show is New York Times reporter Misty Whitesidel to talk about what is arguably the only true luxury brand to ever come out of the United States of America. Yes, that's right, Today is all about the row. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world, and much more. If you're interested listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone. I am still in Paris one week in. I'm actually staying for a few days after the shows to do more meetings. So if you're in town and we haven't gotten together, please let me know. We can get together. It's already been a very interesting week here. Some strong designer debuts at Tom Ford and Dries Van Noten, Sarah Burton, Ed Givenchy is today. Of course these are not the biggest debuts of the year. Those come in the summer and then in the fall at Dior, Chanel and Gucci. And those are the ones that have the potential to change the course of the industry. So all of this is very exciting. But more to come, as we would say in the CMS this Week in Line sheet. You can read my reports in and around the shows as well as some distractions, including an update on the state of Marchesa which has been in the press again because of co founder Georgina Chapman's red carpet run with boyfriend and two time Oscar winner Adrien Brody who did an insufferable speech at the Oscars that you can hear about elsewhere. Just google Adrien Brody. Terrible speech. Best celebrity sighting so far this week at Fashion Week though was Jack Dorsey at Rick Owens. Love to see Jack Dorsey out and about. He's a big fashion fan. I also did a little bit of shopping. I went to Dover Street Market twice. They have the nicest stuff in Paris, the best food. You can hang out there and work on your computer and they have a beautiful courtyard. It's just really lovely. I was looking at the Phoebe Filo stuff there but then I ended up going and Misty and I talk about this on the podcast. I ended up going to the Phoebe Philo shop at Galerie Lafayette, which is really good. I felt like I was back at Celine on Worcester street circa 2018. And across from Phoebe Philo is the brand new build out from the real just in time for Paris Fashion Week. As many of you know, I've been wanting to do a standalone episode on the real forever and I was having a hard time finding the right person to discuss it with because the people who really know the real do not want to piss the real off. So they do not want to do A podcast. They love to talk about it privately. I totally understand. Why would you want to piss them off? That's my job. Luckily, Misty, who's a contributor at the New York Times, has been reporting on the brand for almost as long as I have. We go way back, so this was very fun. Misty White Seidel, welcome to Fashion People.
- [05:31]
Misty Whitesidel
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
- [05:33]
Lauren Sherman
So Fridays, we always ask, what did you have for breakfast?
- [05:38]
Misty Whitesidel
I had a banana.
- [05:40]
Lauren Sherman
Just a banana.
- [05:41]
Misty Whitesidel
Misty, where is your just a banana today?
- [05:44]
Lauren Sherman
Do you need to pair that with protein next time? Okay, I'll think about it as one of my fashion children. Thanks. So thank you for doing this podcast where we're gonna deep dive on the row and we'll get into it really quickly. But I wanted to talk a bit about you, and you have a really great beat at the New York Times. You cover shopping, but you've been a fashion journalist for a long time. I've known you since you were Anne Sloey's intern at Paris Fashion Week with her.
- [06:15]
Misty Whitesidel
It's true.
- [06:16]
Lauren Sherman
So long ago. Do you remember how fun that was?
- [06:20]
Misty Whitesidel
It was fun. It was. I saw the last days of extravagance in fashion media, which was great to be a fly on the wall.
- [06:29]
Lauren Sherman
Do you still talk to Anne?
- [06:31]
Misty Whitesidel
We have fallen out of touch recently, but I'd love to catch up with her.
- [06:35]
Lauren Sherman
Same. Should I have her on the podcast?
- [06:38]
Misty Whitesidel
I think so, yeah. I'm sure you have a lot to say.
- [06:40]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, yeah. She was one of my idols growing up. She's truly the best. But I remember you when Ann's kids were little, you kind of going around with her to the shows. It must have been really, really fun.
- [06:52]
Misty Whitesidel
It was. It was great. And I was in college at the time, so it was a great education.
- [06:56]
Lauren Sherman
Amazing. So you have been writing about the row for basically since you were in college. They probably started right around the time you were in college or right before. Everyone who's going to listen to this knows who they are. But I think it would be good for us to sort of establish how you. If you were going to explain the road to someone who had never heard of them before in 60 seconds or less, how would you do it?
- [07:33]
Misty Whitesidel
I would say that this is a very premium luxury brand founded by Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen, the famous twins, a full house. And that this is a company that I think their influence has really spread across fashion, particularly coming out of the pandemic. It's existed far beyond that, but I think coming out of COVID they kind of gave people Prescribed way to dress. That really caught on and that we've seen those headwinds throughout the industry thereafter.
- [08:06]
Lauren Sherman
Great, great way to say it. And yes, it's interesting. So much of how people think about them is connected to the fact that they were child stars and they're a couple years younger than me. But I grew up. I was. I'm 42 and watching full House. Not loving it, to be honest. But it was just a part of everyone's lives. It was never one of my favorites. And then they were child stars. They had this direct video, sort of Disney like movies series that were very, very big, I think probably more for your generation. Like It Takes Two. Wow. Wow. And then they developed this incredible taste. They did this book. I remember they released it maybe right before the row started or right after, called Influence. It was just like in the mid-2000s, their personal style, which was kind of messy and oversized. They're very petite and a little bit all over the place. Very boho at the time. But there was always. There was an edge to it. It wasn't sweet in any way. Became. People just started copying it like crazy. And then they launch with their old friend, this woman, Danielle Sherman. They launched this line of T shirts called the Row, named after Savile Row. And within years, they became legitimate fashion designers. It was. It was interesting because they sort of started at the same time as Victoria Beckham and also as Jessica Simpson. And Victoria Beckham's line is high end. She still has it, it's very well regarded. But I'd say that she's still a celebrity. First, Jessica Simpson wasn't ever interested in being a real designer, but she became a very successful entrepreneur with her fashion brand. But the row became Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen, who really prefer if you write their names to say Ashley and Mary Kate. They became legitimate fashion designers. And as you were tracking that before you started reporting, and then as you were reporting, what was. How did it change? Like when I would say pretty quickly, people respected it because you could tell they knew their stuff. At least they had really good taste. And then I noticed when I started to really believe in them as designers was their head ofs would go to work at other brands and the line would still be good. So to me, the sort of key is everybody's always wondering, like, is it the number two who's really making the clothes good, or is it the top person? Or are they just a figurehead? And I'd say nine times out of ten, the top person, your creative director, you're the One directing it great to have talent under you, but it's all about you. But with someone like that, you of course think they have some sort of behind the scenes person making it good. And I think when Nadej, who now designs Hermes and then also Francesco went to Theory, who was one of their other designers, I realized, oh, it's them. Like they are the real deal. What was your experience?
- [11:38]
Misty Whitesidel
Yeah, I mean, I think they've always stood for taste. I mean, you spoke about their. When they arrived at NYU in the early 2000s and they were walking around New York, vintage was still, you know, it was not a mainstream phenomenon that it is now. And they really pioneered wearing old clothes and making them look new and interesting. When they launched Thoreau, it was sort of this premium companion to Elizabeth and James, which was their other brand that I don't believe exists anymore. But they were really charting it as a very high end offshoot initially. And I remember when it arrived at Barney's, it was a huge deal. Ultimately, as I reported later on, Barney's became. They owed them a huge debt when they closed down, which led the road to some financial difficulties. But when they initially arrived at Barney's, I think that really put them on the map as a brand that was legitimate in the fashion space.
- [12:40]
Lauren Sherman
And they really, at first they were, I think it was almost all T shirts. And Danielle, who was their co founder, whose family had roots in Savile Row, and now Danielle designs, as you know, a jewelry line called Sherman Field 1957, which was the name of her, her family's clothing brand in, I think in England and on. On Savile Row, maybe. But anyway, when Danielle left the Row, she actually went to Alexander Wang and did Tea by Alexander Wang, which was a subline that was very successful. But I just remember they did like $200t shirts or $300t shirts, which at the time, now the Wall Street Journal just read, wrote, ran a story about $550T shirts. Like 200's pretty good. But it was about this idea of like what you're saying, taste. It was about we know what's good. And that has manifested itself in the design, especially in recent years. So I would say the first decade of the row, I think they launched in 07 or 08. The first decade.
- [13:55]
Misty Whitesidel
06 even.
- [13:56]
Lauren Sherman
06. Okay, so first decade, first like 12, 13 years. It was really about minimalism in the era of Phoebe Philo. So, you know, everything. I believe Phoebe Philo is the Coco Chanel of our time. And pretty much everything comes from her. Like when you look at people on the street so much. I was at Stella McCartney yesterday and someone was wearing a knit and it looked like an old Celine knit. It's just so much of what we wear in terms of silhouette came from her early collections. And the row never felt like a copy entirely of Celine. It was more. You could tell they were using like Romeo Gigli. They were grabbing, as you said, they were big vintage people. They were grabbing a lot of vintage. Galanos, I've heard was like a big thing that they collected in the early days. And you could just see they took a pattern from this designer pattern from that designer. But they were able to do something with that because they had such a particular idea of what they liked. And everybody likes what they like. But then during the pandemic, something did change. Maybe we can rewind a little bit prior to that because the Elizabeth and James stuff happened. They sold that or they did that deal with Kohl's. That was prior to the pandemic, correct?
- [15:35]
Misty Whitesidel
I believe it was around that time. I mean, in that period, the contemporary market of labels sort of shifted and that glut of brands and that Elizabeth and James original price point disappeared. So they were part of that broader shift.
- [15:55]
Lauren Sherman
I remember I did a piece with them when they were launching vintage. Like they were. They had sort of vintage capsule within Elizabeth and James. Like you go to H and M now and there's all this vintage. And I interviewed them. It was. I think I've only interviewed them two or three times, but I went in and I remember the thing that we talked about the most though, was how slowly they had built the row and how carefully. And they had investors pretty. I don't know how early on, but early on and just it was never reported, including it ended up in. In the future. People knew that Byron Trott, who is also was an investor and Tory Burch was one of their backers. And Elizabeth and James had a separate investor cap table, I believe, or something like that. Like, who knows? They're very, very private people. So some of that information will never be totally clear. But they were very much. They were just very serious about it. They wanted to build a luxury brand. They didn't want to sell it to someone. They didn't want to be the designer of Armani, even though we all would all love that. They wanted to do their own thing. And then as you reported, Barney's happened. And they were one of Barney's. One of the things about the real that's interesting is that they sell A ton of Ready to Wear. They have many, many skus. And I think at the time, especially in the 2010s, they had even more. And you'd go to Nieba Marcus or to Barney's and there would just be racks and racks and racks of different styles. And they owed them $4 million. Right. They were the top. They were the brand that they owed the most money to when they went bankrupt. And it was damaging to the business. I remember going to the sample sale in October of 2021. So I was in New York on maternity leave and I took my kid and he was sleeping on me in one of those, like, carriers. And I just bought everything because it was essentially all the Barney's product was there and everything was like gold mine dollars a piece. Yes, but you reported on that extensively. And what happened to them during the pandemic in the early days. Can you explain what they were experiencing, especially because of the fallout of Barney's?
- [18:32]
Misty Whitesidel
Yeah, and this is predates my time at the New York Times. I was at Women's Wear Daily at that time. I had heard through the grapevine that the Row, like so many other brands at the time, which I think is worth noting, many brands in fashion were experiencing trouble. I think what was surprising about the Row, lingering, laying off their design staff and other key members of staff, is that they are obviously founded by two women with immense personal wealth and also two women that we have almost grown to consider infallible in a lot of ways, especially in the fashion industry. So it took a lot of people by surprise at the time. I believe in my reporting, I noted that the Row was owed more money from Barney's than even one of Barney's own landlords at the time. So you can imagine that was an immense, immense amount of money. And with retail all but shut down, I think they had no choice but to trim at that time. But it does seem like things have changed considerably since then.
- [19:36]
Lauren Sherman
Yes. Yeah. I heard at the same time that you were doing this reporting that they were going. They considered shutting down their men's business, which was extremely small at the time, and also pulling back to accessories only. And so it was. They laid off a lot of people. And I remember talking to someone who was connected to the brand, based in Europe, and they. They said they hadn't heard anything like that. So I think these were really internal conversations. It's interesting business to cover because it's not a business that employees. They will talk, but it's not. People are very loyal to the Olsens, especially If you are in their orbit, because it's one of those companies that there are so few businesses in America that feel prestigious, that there are companies that everyone wants to shit talk constantly. I mean, LVMH is very large, so it makes it easy. But, you know, I think that a lot of people who worked at the Row wanted it to succeed and didn't want to see it fail. And so it's interesting, even after many of them got laid off, it's an interesting business to cover, that's for sure. Especially because they are also so private. And I think people want to respect the reasons that they are private. One of them being that they have been famous their entire lives and they don't want people in their business, which I actually really understand. And it's our job to be in their business.
- [21:23]
Misty Whitesidel
So, yes, it is.
- [21:26]
Lauren Sherman
So I say it with love. Wow.
- [21:33]
Misty Whitesidel
What's up? I just bought and financed a car.
- [21:35]
Lauren Sherman
Through Carvana in minutes.
- [21:37]
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You, the person who agonized four weeks.
- [21:39]
Lauren Sherman
Over whether to paint your walls eggshell.
- [21:41]
Misty Whitesidel
Or off white bought and financed a car in minutes.
- [21:43]
Lauren Sherman
They made it easy, Transparent terms, customizable, down and monthly. Didn't even have to do any paperwork.
- [21:49]
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Wow.
- [21:50]
Lauren Sherman
Mm. Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet I sent you for our dinner? Options finance your car with Carvana and.
- [21:56]
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- [22:35]
Lauren Sherman
So they were having challenges during the pandemic. I remember being in my first house in LA and talking to people from there and your story coming out and just thinking, and this would have been that. Was that like summer 20? Like August, July, August 2020.
- [22:57]
Misty Whitesidel
Yeah, it was lockdown. Yes.
- [23:00]
Lauren Sherman
And then fast forward a year and a half or two and something changed. I would say one thing is that in lockdown, people prior to lockdown, nobody remembers this, but the 2000 and tens were all about sneakers. And I'm at Paris Fashion Week right now. I wore sneakers today. I was the only person wearing sneakers, the only woman my Foot hurt. I had to wear them. It's crazy. I felt like so underdressed. Whereas prior to the pandemic and I remember being here in February 2020 and talking to, actually talking to Gary Wassner, the famous Hilden factor. And I'm sure you're very familiar with Gary also, and him saying, no one's wearing sneakers. And something had shifted in. People were kind of moving out of the casual wear and they were dressing up a little more. And then the pandemic happened, boomed and everybody regressed and everybody was in sweatpants and entire world blew up and then actually blew up. And people were just wearing relaxed clothes again. And at the same time, the row sort of came into its own for what it's really good at. And I think part of that was Phoebe Filo left Celine, I believe, at the end of 2018. So it had been a few years. And the brands that had been deeply influenced from her were breaking away from that. And then also to me, and then I would love your take on this. To me, the thing that they are the best at and it comes back to this idea of taste, is that they find the item that everybody needs and they are able to distill it to the perfect thing. So a pair of Teva sandals, everyone needs those. They made them leather, they kind of smoothed the edges, and they made the best pair of Teva sandals in the world. And I tried to buy a pair of like dupes, if you want to call them of the road, Teva sandals. And they weren't good enough. And I never bought. I'd never bought the actual ones either, but I was advised not to by a good friend. But the point being that they make the perfect version of the thing, whether that's a shirt or a pair of sandals or a bag. And that kind of became their calling card. And it just, I feel like it just blew up. What was your experience of it?
- [25:44]
Misty Whitesidel
Yeah. So one thing to pull out is right before COVID their spring 2020 collection. And now we of course know what happened during that season when that would have hit retailers. It was that season when they had on the Runway a lilac crisp button down shirt with khakis. And I remember seeing just the fashion crowd go wild. There were a lot of ostentatious clothing in the market at the time, a lot of heavily embellished products. And this felt really fresh. And so they were sort of set up coming out of COVID to sort of bring this out again. And that is sort of what they've stuck to. And really succeeded with. Their products are, though, I will say very expensive. And they are. They've been so successful that there are many brands now, obviously that have issued things to, to look like them at a much lower price point. So it's an interesting time to sort of be observing them now and their success, how that sort of carried through the rest of fashion.
- [26:46]
Lauren Sherman
Let's talk about the sort of proto or prime example of that, which is the Margot bag, which is a bag that looks a lot like an Hermes bag. So it's not an original and I think I've said this on the podcast before, but someone said to one of my old colleagues once, all bags are copies of Hermes bags. So I think like the puzzle bag from Loewe is the only one that really isn't. And when you think about it, it's true. It's every bag. If you look through the Hermes archive, they all sort of come from. Every bag sort of comes from an Hermes bag. And it just depends on whether the designer who plucks from it can kind of shape it differently. But the Margaux became the it bag of that era and I think today still is. What do you think it is about that style in particular? And can you describe it for people? I don't, again, I don't know who would listen to this and doesn't know what the Margot bag is. But how would you describe it and the. How women use it and wear it?
- [27:53]
Misty Whitesidel
Yeah, it's a bag that comes in various sizes from a bag that you can throw everything that you need for three days, maybe even a weekend in, you know, a weekend or tote to a really mini size. Now they've expanded the run. But it's, I think, meant to look like, you know, a bag that you wear to look like you have a lot of money is how I would describe it. I mean, it's, it comes in these very luxurious materials. It looks like it's very heavy. It has a presence to it and you know, it's caught on with a certain group of people who can afford it.
- [28:30]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, it really reminds me of the Bolide bag from Hermes, which I have. I own one of those. And it costs, well, it costs far less than the Margot, let me tell you. I got it secondhand and it's very nice. But yeah, I think like top handle bags, at some point right after the lockdowns, like as we were really exiting the hardest part of the pandemic became the thing to have. There was just something about them. And that's when we saw People sort of returning to dressing up. I think the other thing that they got really good at with the lookbooks in particular was the styling and their collaboration with Brian Molloy, who styles a lot of great shows. He also does Todd's in Milan. He does Issey Miyake here in Paris. He also does Tory Burch. He's been doing that for a few years too. But he is very good at. It's almost like he should have been the editor in chief of Lucky magazine in that he can really. He knows how to put things together and it's very instructive. I wrote a little thing in line sheet about this this week. But the way he styles things, there's so much like their use of red tights or the way that they. He's. He'll drape a sweater over the shoulders. Things like that, I feel like have really influenced a lot of other brands as well.
- [30:08]
Misty Whitesidel
Absolutely. I mean, I could name 10 of 10 of them right now.
- [30:13]
Lauren Sherman
Well, do you want to name some of them?
- [30:15]
Misty Whitesidel
I'm okay. I don't need to. But I'm sure many people listening know what. Yeah. What those brands are.
- [30:20]
Lauren Sherman
I can. I'm happy to. So I think, like, obviously Totem, which is a good example of one of these brands that was deeply influenced by the world that I think has found its own niche. And we should talk about the pricing thing because it's connected to Tottenham Tem, which is. Was founded in, I believe, 2014 by Ellen Kling and her partner, and is of a very similar. The customer. They definitely want the same kind of person who buys the Row. I would say that Tose Hem feels like even more directly referencing Carolyn Bessette Kennedy and that sort of 1990s, like, super minimalist, rich way of looking. But there are, you know, dozens of them that need the Row to. In the same way the Row needed Celine to sort of inform what they do each season. And you mentioned and going back to price. So what I think Totem has done really successfully is a Found their own silhouettes and ideas that don't have anything to do with the Row or only feel adjacent to the Row. And then they also have incredible prices. So the price is now compared to something Totem sort of in the what we used to call contemporary market. So you can buy a pair of jeans for under $500. You can buy a coat for under $1500. These things aren't cheap, but there's a perceived quality and. And a perceived accessibility in an era when like buying a pair of pants for A thousand bucks seems like a steal if you're a luxury customer, but the thing about the road that has happened, like many luxury brands, is that their prices have just skyrocketed. There is a pair of over the knee boots that I'm very interested in that cost $4,200 and if you get them in suede it's 2,600. But you know that's a lot of money.
- [32:32]
Misty Whitesidel
It is yesterday.
- [32:34]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, I looked at it. So what did you see?
- [32:36]
Misty Whitesidel
Yeah, I saw a pair of elastic waist shorts, black shorts and they were about $900.
- [32:43]
Lauren Sherman
Wow. Under a thousand, Under a thousand.
- [32:46]
Misty Whitesidel
But these are pull on shorts. I believe they were made in.
- [32:55]
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- [33:23]
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- [34:31]
Lauren Sherman
Do you think that the secondhand market has benefited the RO because younger people who don't have that kind of money can buy something on the realreal for relatively cheap and still feel like they're part of that world. And then they trade up when they do have a little more money.
- [34:52]
Misty Whitesidel
I don't think that I Mean, from my observations, I don't think the RO is thinking about the secondhand market when it's strategizing its product assortment? I also. I don't know.
- [35:02]
Lauren Sherman
I'm not saying they're thinking about it, but do you think it's benefited them? I do.
- [35:07]
Misty Whitesidel
I don't know. I don't know anyone actually who have. Who has bought the Row repeatedly secondhand. I feel like a lot of people like to go to their stores. They like to experience that environment that the Row has set up and been so deliberate about, whether it's in Los Angeles or the townhouse here in New York.
- [35:25]
Lauren Sherman
I think younger people buy it secondhand.
- [35:28]
Misty Whitesidel
Okay, well, maybe they're not saying that they do.
- [35:33]
Lauren Sherman
I don't know. I feel like a lot of the young. Youngins that I know are. Don't you feel like your friends are really into buying secondhand generally and. And scouring the real real and making that sort of part of their customer journey when they're looking for stuff?
- [35:52]
Misty Whitesidel
Yeah, I. But I don't know that the Row is part of that journey. From what I've heard. I never hear people talk about the Row and purchasing it secondhand compared with some other brands that you've mentioned.
- [36:03]
Lauren Sherman
You know, do you know MC Nanda, Mary Catherine Nanda, who used to work at Business of Fashion?
- [36:11]
Misty Whitesidel
Yes.
- [36:13]
Lauren Sherman
She loves buying the rose secondhand. She's my Gen Z person. I'm gonna just look and see how much stuff is on there right now. I mean, there are. There's thousands, thousands of pieces. I have sold much, many things from the Row secondhand on the realreal, and made a lot of money. So there are two different things.
- [36:36]
Misty Whitesidel
You get a good return on the investment.
- [36:38]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, you know what? So I bought a ton of stuff. That 2021 sample sale in October 2021. So it was all 200 bucks. Everything was 200 bucks. I think I kept one blazer because it was all like, the shoes were a half size too big. I had just had a baby, so I, like, bought a tunic, which I would never wear, but I was like, I need, like, a long dress. That's not. Like, I'm not gonna fill gross in. And then the next summer, I was like, I'm not wearing this. I bought a satin shirt that wasn't right. I bought so many things that were gorgeous, and I was just like, I have to. I think the shoes. I got more money for them. I think I paid 200 for them, and I got 600. So I think they have. And I don't know now but at the time their stuff had a lot of perceived value in terms of what you could get. Oh wow, here's a bag. A leather two for one bag estimate a retail $2,800 only $845. That's pretty good. But yeah, I mean I think at the time it was I think at the peak of the row or I'm sure it wasn't their peak in terms of revenue but in like the cultural peak that they had post pandemic that people were shopping it. But things have changed since then and I think one of one of the changes is the shift in the pricing in the market. And what, what has your observation been about how much people are willing to spend the luxury customers on things from the row? Are people totally offended by it or do they think it's has like a high value relative or are you seeing with shoppers and just like hearing people talk that people are starting to feel like it is getting a little too expensive?
- [38:56]
Misty Whitesidel
I think one thing that has come across in my reporting, I saw a TikTok from a girl who thrifted a sweater from the row that had no tag and she was able to identify it by the wash tag deep inside the sweater. But there were a lot of comments underneath saying how do you know that this is the row? How do you know it's not the Gap or from Uniqlo? And I think that captures some of the public perception of the rose product right now relative to its price and you know what that value looks like. I saw a beanie on their website yesterday for $2,600. It had some metal adornments on it and you know, as I think discretionary spending right now at least in the United States continues to waver. People are considering what they're spending. There's a lot of uncertainty. I'm curious how that will affect people's perception of the ROE and their willingness to buy those products.
- [39:55]
Lauren Sherman
Well, I also wonder. Phoebe Filo returned to our world at the end of 2023 and her brand, the development of her self launched brand that has a big investment but a minority investment from lvmh. It was a very rocky launch and a very messy, messy launch. But what I would say is especially now I think they've really got the production down. They've got, they've tweaked a lot of the designs refined. I see. And she proposed a whole new way of dressing again. So it was this idea of it really moved away from. There were links with what she did at Celine. But I would say it was much harder, sexier, stronger way of dressing. And I see more women with money like LVMH prize. The other night. Gaia Raposi, who's a big, big shopper, was a big Mattie Bottega person. She's in head to toe Phoebe. It's those kinds of women. The women who spend money on clothes are really into Phoebe, and she is not doing. And she is not basic. Phoebe is not basic. She makes essentials, but they are not basic. And so I see something shifting in the mindset. It was really interesting. I was at Galerie Lafayette shopping at the new Phoebe store, which is. It's like walking into a old Celine store in terms of the. The people who are working there. They have people they. They brought over from London. It feels very real. Feels like a real store and real ideas. And you could go in there and try. I tried on a ton of stuff. And the Rose Store opened this week too, in Galerie Lafayette across the way. And it looked great. I was attracted to everything. But I gotta say, if I'm gonna spend that much money, especially as someone who doesn't have that kind of money, I'm buying a Phoebe thing now. I'm not doing that anymore. I'm not gonna. Like shoes from the Row. Yes. Like, they make the best version of whichever shoe from the last 30 years that you want. But the clothes themselves, something has changed in the kind of things I want. And I think the kinds of things a lot of customers want. And so they're gonna have to reckon with that. I don't know if I think you can go as high as you want if you have the right product. I think there's a lot of elasticity. I think people with a ton of money have plenty of money. And like they always say with Hermes, Hermes could charge far more for their products and people would still buy them. I don't think there's price resistance when the thing is good. Also, the Phoebe Filo ballet flats are €700.
- [43:06]
Misty Whitesidel
That's.
- [43:07]
Lauren Sherman
It's not cheap, of course, but for a luxury item that feels like there's a lot of. In your head, oh, that's worth it. Whereas that's a hard number to find from. From the Row at this point. I'm curious to know from your perspective. They raised a bunch of money last fall from four, as the cap table includes four companies as far as we know. Moose Partners, the family office of the Wertheimers who own Chanel. The Betancourt family's family office, which is called what is it? We need to look it up because it's not just the Betancourts. It's really the Betancourt Myers family office. Tethys. Tethys, Tethys Imaginary Ventures, which is run by Nick Brown and Natalie Massine and then Lawrence Santa Domingo's new venture firm. So I believe that the Wertheimers put in the most and then and. And LSD put in the least. But the other two wrote very large checks to they. The company was valued at $1 billion. So the business with four stores, it's definitely under $500 million a year in sales or around that. At this point, I think less. Where do you see the business moving from? From now they have become this thing where they are sort of the basics for people with means, but they need to become the basics for people with means all over the world and far more of them. How do you see the business growing and knowing what you know about how the Olsons operate, how do you think they'll execute it?
- [45:13]
Misty Whitesidel
Yeah, I can't speak too much to the investment component. I haven't reported that myself. But I will say to your earlier point, I think that real connoisseurs of fashion who are looking at these kinds of clothes, they've. I've noticed a new interest in brands like Christacea and La Mer, which has been around for a while, as has Christacea. These are companies that there's a very familial environment when you go to shop them. There's a bit more structural intrigue or maybe some pattern or color play that doesn't exist at the Row. Aside from Shoes, which I am seeing a lot of interest still in my reporting in Shoes from the Row. But I am seeing to your point about things shifting a little bit in Ready to Wear. That does feel true of the market right now. What I think is interesting of the Row is that I've seen their product assortment in the last two years just balloon. It seems like. I mean, there's more than 400 SKUs on net a porter right now. I counted more than 600 SKUs on Essence at the moment selling currently. And I think what will be interesting to watch is as you grow that number of products that's available at any given time, how do you maintain influence across such a wide population of people and get them to keep investing in your product at such a high price point?
- [46:36]
Lauren Sherman
And if you are a true luxury brand, you do have a range of prices. So what you know, Hermes, you can go and buy something for 200 bucks there. So what is going to be their entry? Maybe it's beauty.
- [46:49]
Misty Whitesidel
Yeah. Yeah. We saw Louis Vuitton jump into the beauty space earlier this week. Right. And that seems to be the way that they're all going. So maybe there will be a row. I would imagine a clear lip balm or something to that effect.
- [47:03]
Lauren Sherman
You know, speaking of, of beauty lines from fashion brands, Victoria Beckham's, which I'm applying right now because I Look, it's. It's 10:12pm here, and I look really like death. But Victoria Beckham's beauty brand is incredible. It is incredible. They should spin it out and sell it. It's the best makeup I've used in years. Just a hot tip for you. But obviously, if the row launched beauty, I would buy all of it.
- [47:34]
Misty Whitesidel
Victoria Beckham's Beauty. Yeah, it has some metaphysical crystals in the eyeshadows from my understanding.
- [47:40]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, really?
- [47:41]
Misty Whitesidel
Yes.
- [47:41]
Lauren Sherman
You know, I have one of their eyeshadow pencils in baby blue.
- [47:46]
Misty Whitesidel
Oh, nice.
- [47:47]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, it's very, very adventurous for me. One other thing I wanted to ask you about, and I'm curious. I had this conversation with a British person who was desperate to do this podcast with me but did not feel comfortable because this person probably hangs out with the Olsens on, like, holiday and stuff. So. But we had a big conversation about it months ago and we were talking about the perception they just showed in Paris. They obviously, people really think they're cool and think the store is really beautiful. I did get a report. I still haven't been to the store. I'm going to go next week when there's the lines done after Fashion Week because I'm staying a few days late. I heard the coffee is not good in the store. Someone's like, can you report that? I was like, I would like to try it for myself because I'm really. I'm big third wave coffee person. But pettiness and bitchiness aside, I think people really respect them. They have the respect of Europeans. I don't think a lot of Europeans in the fashion industry want to buy the stuff. I don't think they are eager to own it. Whereas when Phoebe's first thing came out, they were all like, yeah, I'll drop six grand on a leather jacket. You know, that sort of thing. And I was talking to this person, and I really think the key is the Olsens grew up. Obviously, they had a very rarefied life, but they grew up. They're just like kids. They're just like normal, basic girls. Like the way you and I are normal basic girls. Like they grew up with a lot of money, but it's not like they are from some aristocratic family. So. And they also. Education in America is very different than education in Europe. So from a young age, people in Europe are like taught to be interested in art and culture and history. Whereas in America you have to sort of choose that. And that's across the board. It's not only because they were probably homeschooled or, or taught on set or whatever. Like you really have to choose that for your life because it's not something that's encouraged in our culture. I think the thing is they eventually did have those advantages and were able to be exposed and they have incredible taste. So everyone like me who didn't have the exact same upbringing as them but like also was not exposed to that stuff a ton as a young person and was, you know, forced myself to be in, to develop, you know, ideas and learn about all of that. I'm really attracted to it because there's something basic about what they do that makes me feel very comfortable. And I don't know if you think this theory, but that's why I think it hits so hard in the US And I know it's doing really well in Asia too. I think it's a similar thing. Whereas in Europe, I'm sure they have a good business there and again, they have the respect of these people. But I do think there is something about it that is very American and has to do with like how we are exposed to things other than TV and McDonald's.
- [51:25]
Misty Whitesidel
That's so funny. I actually was going to say I think the Row, what makes the Row a very American company is that it costs a lot of money in the United States States to wear simple, well made clothing compared to other markets around the world. And they sort of stand for that, you know, at the peak of what that means to wear simple, well made clothes. And you know, it's very prescribed in our culture what that means. We don't have to get into that here, but there's a lot of connotations of class and education that comes with wearing clothing like that. And they've succeeded at projecting that image very well.
- [52:02]
Lauren Sherman
I think that's a great way to put it. Misty, is there anything else about the role that you want to talk about?
- [52:09]
Misty Whitesidel
What else do you want to talk about?
- [52:11]
Lauren Sherman
I think we're good. I mean, I love the role. I'm a huge fan. I really respect them. I love writing about them. I'll never stop, even though I'm sure, they wish that I would, but. Oh, you know what? I wanted to ask you about you. So one of the big reasons I wanted to do this with you is the recent piece you did on the last sample sale. So you went to the sample sale and you talked to people. What did you learn there? And everyone should read Misty's piece.
- [52:39]
Misty Whitesidel
Thanks. Well, what I the reason that I set out to that sample sale is that it's not often that you can encounter so many of the Rose clientele in one place and interview them. They were on the side with walk and so that's a fair game place to interview people compared to in a store setting, of course. And what I learned is that, you know, the Row because it's become very available in stores around the world. We've seen celebrities purchase their own pieces of the Row like Kendall Jenner, Hailey Bieber. That's had a huge effect on how popular this brand is and how it resonates with young women in the United States. A lot of the people that I spoke to who are in line from very early in the morning, some even paid people to stand in line for them, they were very excited to participate in the brand because they see influencers, women that they follow wearing the Row. And you know, for all of the Row secrecy and sort of its error of they haven't been able to sort of evade that phenomenon of TikTok and social media that forces people to go, you know, to stores.
- [53:46]
Lauren Sherman
You know, I love their My favorite client of theirs is Michael Rappaport. He's always like I with the Row. I really want to make the the headline of this podcast we with the Row, but I don't know if we should use in the headline. It's fine to say it on the podcast though. Misty, this was so fun. I love your beat. I look forward to reading your next piece and we'll have you back very soon.
- [54:14]
Misty Whitesidel
Can't wait.
- [54:16]
Lauren Sherman
Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.