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- [00:01]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, sure thing. Hey, you sold that car yet?
- [00:04]
Becky Malinski
Yeah, sold it to Carvana.
- [00:06]
Jenna Fisher
Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy.
- [00:09]
Becky Malinski
The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency. No interest over 36 months. Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient.
- [00:21]
Lauren Sherman
Just like that? Yeah. No hassle? None. That is super convenient.
- [00:26]
Jenna Fisher
Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle.
- [00:28]
Angela Kinsey
For convenience, pick up.
- [00:29]
Lauren Sherman
These may apply.
- [00:30]
Unknown
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- [01:34]
Lauren Sherman
Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of CUP's fashion and beauty Memo line sheet. And today with me on the show is writer and stylist Becky Malinski. She's here to chat about her new collaboration with Alex Mill. What you should actually be buying at all these sales, the latest round of designer musical chairs and so much more. Hope everyone had a fab weekend. I was very busy momming but saw a couple of you at the Peter Shire open Studio day in Echo park which was so great. I'm a big Memphis group person so it's kind of amazing to live so close to someone whose work has been so influential on you. Also, big thanks to Courage Bagels. They had a pop up there. They somehow managed to find one last bagel to give my kid and as a payback, I may stand in line next weekend at their shop which the line is very long and if you are interested in food trends and you've been to la, you probably know that. But they sell these very light, airy, Montreal stylish bagels with amazing toppings and I haven't had one since the pandemic. So, you know, I might, I might, I may make the trip. It is the holiday season and I have a little bit of extra time and I'm here this weekend. Line sheet Sarah Shapiro is joining us. She'll start contributing as of Wednesday, so if you have any tips or thoughts for her, email her on Shapiro Tuck Talk News. She's going to be covering a lot of new brands, mall brands, commerce, shopping, et cetera. And in Mondi's line sheet, speaking of commerce, I dig into the state of the American mall and I also follow up on that Louise Trotter news that she may be heading to Bottega Veneta. I scooped that last week, plus a few other fun nuggets that you should be sure to check out again. We're so excited to have Sarah. Email her if you want to bug her. Email me on laurencuck News if you want to bug me. And until then, let's get going with I know many of you have bought her Alex Mill collab and she talks about how it all came together and we had a fun conversation. Becky Malinski, welcome back to Fashion People.
- [03:43]
Angela Kinsey
Thank you so much.
- [03:44]
Lauren Sherman
What did you do this weekend? Were you skiing?
- [03:47]
Angela Kinsey
Yes, I took my four year old skiing and it was so awesome. My back hurts a lot today, but it's worth it.
- [03:57]
Lauren Sherman
Did you grow up skiing?
- [03:58]
Angela Kinsey
I grew up skiing. I love skiing. I love being outside in winter. So I'm trying very hard to make sure he does as well.
- [04:07]
Lauren Sherman
And he was into it.
- [04:09]
Angela Kinsey
He was super into it. I took him once last winter and he cried the whole time. He was very confused. I think he was three then. It was just, it was too young. But this time he was super into it, wanted to do it himself. It was great. Got him cool snow pants and like, you know, the gear is half the fun.
- [04:30]
Lauren Sherman
So I only skied a couple times growing up, but really loved it and felt like it was something. I just remember feeling like, oh, I could do this. Like it was not. I turned it on really quickly.
- [04:43]
Angela Kinsey
My big theory is with skiing it's easy. I mean, if you're not very young and trying to figure out your balance and coordination, it's very easy to stand right away. You can kind of do it. It takes a lifetime to master, which is what's so fun about it. Whereas I think snowboarding's the opposite. It's really hard to stand up right away. When I was a teenager, I did a little bit of snowboarding. It was so hard to make it click, but once it clicks, I think it's actually much easier than skiing.
- [05:05]
Lauren Sherman
Interesting.
- [05:06]
Angela Kinsey
But as you get older, snowboarding is harder because you have to sit down a lot. You fall a lot.
- [05:11]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, yeah.
- [05:12]
Angela Kinsey
If you can't get up, it's a bit trickier.
- [05:15]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [05:16]
Angela Kinsey
Trying to convince my husband to get back on skis. I'm like, you're six two. You're too old to be getting up and down like that.
- [05:22]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, yeah. So you did a great newsletter last season about ski gear. I feel like people should check the out in the Five Things archives.
- [05:35]
Angela Kinsey
Yeah, I think I have to go reread it. I think once I send it into the world, I kind of let it go.
- [05:42]
Lauren Sherman
Well, there's that brand. Is it Bogner?
- [05:45]
Angela Kinsey
Yeah, I think they pronounce it Bogner.
- [05:48]
Lauren Sherman
I pronounce Bogner. I feel like you are a big proponent of this brand and have brought it to a lot of people who wouldn't know about it.
- [05:56]
Angela Kinsey
Well, I love really technical ski gear. I'm very into classic brands, technical brands. Vintage Bogner is awesome. Like, there was a time in the 80s and 90s where like one pieces were very popular and Bogner like owned that market. I think now they're trying to compete more with Montclair. I think Montclair kind of owns that like luxury technical market now. And Bogner is waking up to that a bit. I mean, obviously this is hearsay, but that's in my mind how it they're operating. But amazing technical pieces, a lot of history. I love that brand.
- [06:35]
Lauren Sherman
So really quickly on this and then we'll move on to the topics of the day. But last week I had Ana Angelic on who's like a marketing, fashion marketing person. We were talking about American consumption of luxury goods versus European or other parts of the world. And she made this comment that she was skiing in Vail like 10 years ago and that Americans tend to be more focused on technical. They are not wearing head to toe Chanel ski suits, whatever. And to her it spoke a lot about like the American luxury consumer and how they kind of approach that kind of stuff versus a European or an Asian or any other region of the world where like being interested in fashion and labels and things is more appropriate. Do you think that that's true as a longtime skier? And have you noticed that specifically? And B, do you think that's changed in the last few years because I feel like there is just so much great ski gear and that's technical but also high fashion or what have you.
- [07:46]
Angela Kinsey
That's a very interesting take. I mean, yeah, I think Americans in general are much more focused on the competition and the sport aspect, whereas skiing is so a part of the lifestyle in Europe where sort of everyone skis and there's a real sort of elegant way of doing it and having lunch on the mountain and having it be a family sport. And it's just a different thing in America. Everything in America kind of trends towards the competitive nature of it. As someone who grew up skiing and also luxury brands were not really a part of skiing. When I was growing up and going out west and skiing. That wasn't something I ever really noticed. So much so in my head, luxury brands, creating ski clothes doesn't feel like it's made for real skiers. It sort of feels like it's made for ski adjacent lifestyle in the same way that's happening in tennis. It doesn't feel like it's really for the sport. And as someone who loves the sport, I almost feel like if I were. Listen, I love Chanel. I feel like I could not wear a Chanel ski ski suit skiing because if you are not the best skier on the mountain, I don't necessarily think that would look so cool. Chanel ski suit.
- [08:58]
Lauren Sherman
Interesting. So it, it does come back to this idea of like in the 90s, people, even really wealthy people like buying designer stuff was not the go to. It wasn't. And so I do, I, I, it was an interesting point you made because you think of like I, you go to. I love talking about this but you go to Nobu Malibu and you just see like head to toe every single designer that's ever existed. It's so fun to go there and just look at the way people dress. But that's like really new money. And a lot of that money is also not American money. And also consumers change and all that. But yeah, there is like a thing about. I think that's why arc'teryx has done so well because it is designy but also obviously like super technical. I just went yesterday, I went to this store in Echo park called LSD Long slow distance, not Lauren Santo Domingo. And it's like have you been to that running store distance in Paris in the 11th?
- [10:04]
Angela Kinsey
No, but I would love to.
- [10:05]
Lauren Sherman
It's awesome.
- [10:06]
Angela Kinsey
I'll make a note.
- [10:07]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, we can go then in, in February or March. But it reminds me of that. And apparently lsd, one of the guys who owns it is French and is friends with the distance running crew. But it's very much like a running store for run like cool kids who belong to run clubs. They have Bandit. They have. They don't have satisfy because it sounds like satisfy won't sell to them. And also satisfy is guys. It's a little too expensive. If the satisfye running people are listening, you guys need to just take it down one notch. But they have a lot of arms on stuff. And they also have tons of District Vision and then Nord, that brand, Norda sneakers. Lots of on sneakers, lots of Nike, whatever. But anyway, they also have like White Mountaineering and a couple other Japanese, a couple Swedish brands. And the thing is, all this stuff is like super technical. So it's that mix of design and technical. Whereas you couldn't just have like a random designer stuff in here. You'd have to have like the low. Yeah, it's cool. I'm very into this. It's sort of, I think, the evolution of Gorp core.
- [11:21]
Angela Kinsey
Yes, that sounds about right.
- [11:23]
Lauren Sherman
So, Becky, this last week was a big week for you.
- [11:27]
Angela Kinsey
It was a big week. I'm tired.
- [11:29]
Lauren Sherman
You launched your collection with Alex Mill called Holiday Things. Correct?
- [11:36]
Angela Kinsey
Yes, Holiday Things.
- [11:38]
Lauren Sherman
Tell me about it. Congratulations. First of all, I love it. I got the suit. It's gorgeous. One of the best blazers I've ever owned. But tell me, how did you do it?
- [11:49]
Angela Kinsey
Thank you.
- [11:49]
Lauren Sherman
How did this come about? And also how did you, like, pick stuff and figure out how to. What you wanted, what was in. Give me a very quick summary of how you. How this. You made this happen. Sure.
- [12:03]
Angela Kinsey
It was about a year process, start to finish. Yeah, we started in January and that was even a tight turnaround for a holiday collection. The rest of their holiday had sort of been produced and decided upon, which was actually helpful. And that was the starting point of the collection. But I'll back up. It came about because I did a newsletter partnership with them last December and it was the first time they did that with their brand and it performed really well. And I was really happy with how it turned out. They were really happy with how it turned out. They were really happy with the new customer acquisition. And you know, Mickey Drexler, he's very curious about new things and he called multiple times and wanted to know more about it. And we talked a lot about what else is it that we could do together? And he said, I want to do something. It doesn't just have to be this one time a year thing. What is something we can work on together? And from there, I had a meeting with Somsack, who is their creative director. In January, we just got a coffee with him and Rose Anderson, the head of their marketing. Rose, I don't know your title. I'm sorry.
- [13:16]
Lauren Sherman
It's fine. Titles don't mean anything. People mean something.
- [13:19]
Angela Kinsey
Exactly. And we're just kind of spitballing what it could be. And we thought, well, what if we do a little collection? And later that week, I was going in to see Holiday anyway, because I am still a market editor at the end of the day, and I do still go see collections. And I went to see Holiday and I looked at sort of their lineup and what they had, and it was very Alex Mille. Obviously, it was very casual, a lot, a lot of sweaters, some outerwear. And I kind of knew immediately after seeing it, I was like, oh, I actually know what we need to do. We need to find a way to get all of these clothes wearable for, like, the onslaught of events so many people have in November, December. So from there, I sort of took some time, thought about what I thought it should be, pulled references, pulled ideas. And then I had a meeting with Somsack and we kind of together, brainstormed of, you know, I was like, this is what I think we need. I mean, I'm working with women all the time. We need a holiday top, something really easy to layer and pair. There was a skirt that I featured in the newsletter last year that went viral for them. Like, they posted the picture from my newsletter on Instagram and they are still getting calls about this skirt. And they keep saying, I'm so sorry, it's not our skirt, it's our sweater. So they were like, we want something really dressy along those lines. So we kind of started there. I thought we needed a top. They really wanted a skirt. And I sort of put all these things together into an idea of what could be these pieces that could really dress up your more everyday casual wardrobe that you already are buying from them and that you already may have. And I feel like we are kind of of the same mindset. We're scrappy, we're casual, we have a bit of classic. So the ideas felt very. There was a lot of synergy. And when I would bring an idea, some would say, yes, let me sketch it. And it was really fluid, actually. And it came together pretty quickly. It was like I took a lot of time, obviously, thinking and processing and pulling ideas. But, you know, in our meetings, I think it was two one hour meetings, and we kind of had the Idea of what we wanted.
- [15:30]
Lauren Sherman
What about fabrics? Because for me, that was. Especially when I. When I got the suit, I was like, whoa, this is a great. This is a really nice material. It's like a wool crepe. It feels very silky. It has a nice, really soft hand feel. And it's. You. You're a drapey person. It has a little bit of slouch and drape to it. But the skirt has a great. It's. It's almost a taffeta, but a almost utilitarian taffeta. And you did that jacket too. Did you get to sort of go through fabric swatches? How do they choose fabrics? That must have been so fun.
- [16:07]
Angela Kinsey
Yes, it was so fun. And I'm obviously very specific about fabric and hand feel. And I felt and touched everything. And I really wanted to make sure it would have that quality. And they have a great production team who is really supportive. And so I, you know, and I'm very specific and very descriptive. So I would say, like, you know, okay, we want a skirt. I want it to feel dressy and, like, taffeta, but it should be khaki because this is Alex Mill. And it should feel utilitarian. So is there something we can do with a little bit of shine? And it should have this much stiffness? And so they were able to pull fabrics based on my descriptions. Well, and they also, you know, they are. They're good at what they do. So they did a really good job of pulling fabrics. And sometimes they would pull a fabric. Like, I wanted to do the oversized T shirt in a lame, and the fabric swatches came in, and I was like, you know what? This is nice, but it's, like, too thick. This is going to feel kind of, like, fussy. Can we, like, make it thinner? And they were like, yeah, we could open the weave. We could ask for a thinner knit. So. So, you know, I think it was three rounds of feeling fabric and seeing samples and sort of going back and fixing things. So that was super important to me. And then, you know, I knew I wanted a crepe for the suit. Cause I wanted it to feel very evening y. Something that would feel like almost like you would put on a dress, but it was in a suit. And I didn't want it to have any sort of, like, work wear feel to it, even though you could definitely wear this to work. But because we were doing, like, a purpley navy, like, I thought it needed that, like, sort of really special, elegant, like, textured feel. So they were able to pull based on My descriptions, but they did a really good job. Pulling is the long winded answer.
- [17:52]
Lauren Sherman
What. What has the feedback been? What? What have you heard from your customers or your readers? What have you heard from their customers? Did you see a big uptick in your followers on Substack? What has a week in or a half, six days in or four days in or what? However long it's been, what have you absorbed from the experience?
- [18:16]
Angela Kinsey
Feedback has been fantastic. I think the purple crushed velvet pants, which. Which is one of the fabrics I started with, I was like, I don't know why, but I really want this in line. And it's kind of the outlier. Everything else, we've made multiple pieces in one fabric, but that was sort of this extra. I was like, let's just do it. I love it. I think that's the first piece to sell out. It's almost totally sold out. I think maybe size 2 left.
- [18:42]
Lauren Sherman
Amazing.
- [18:43]
Angela Kinsey
Which is unbelievable for the piece that I was like, this is just the fun piece. Like, please make it. Yeah, the feedback has been great. There's been great sell through. We're talking now about which pieces we want to recut, which don't we want to recut, which we want to maybe keep special and very capsulated.
- [19:01]
Lauren Sherman
Yes.
- [19:02]
Angela Kinsey
And the feedback from readers has been fantastic. Obviously, the newsletter community, I honestly call Substack the nicest place on the Internet because the comments are always so nice and supportive and people talk to each other in them and they've just been really positive. And I was actually cc'd. One customer wrote into Alex Mill to their, you know, like, customer at or whatever info. Lexmill and Alex Mill cc'd me so I could see the conversation about how happy they were that they brought in a woman designer and that men understand fantasy and like concept and idea, but women really understand what it is. Women need to get dressed. And they were so. They were so glad to see it and that they felt like they were heard as a woman. And like, that felt so good. So it was really amazing to hear that feedback. And I talked to the team at 2pm that day on the launch day, and like, Mickey had me on speaker going around the office and people were like saying, hi, Becky. They were like, everyone is in an amazing mood and felt like they felt really positive about the collection. So, I mean, that's the most important thing to me that I feel like that I love it and proud of it, that their team was proud of it and wanted to support it. So, like their head of production, who is like super stylish and I love her. She. In our last product fitting, she was like, I'm ordering the anorak. And I was like, oh, my God, she wants to order it. I feel like, okay, this has legs. This is gonna work. Did it? So the feedback has just been really, really positive.
- [20:35]
Lauren Sherman
It's awesome. I know someone at puck who spent $800 on. On stuff. We both know this person. I don't wanna get them, but they were very thrilled. And, yeah, I think it was great. There was something for everyone. And it does feel like it will obviously open up your audience, but it will expose Alex Mill's audience to a group of people who would totally wear that stuff, but maybe have never heard of it. It's still a really small company in the fashion world. We know it very well because of Somsack and. And Alex and Mickey. But, you know, outside of it, they only have a few stores. And so this is the kind of customer acquisition, as you said before, that really works. So you're worth the investment, Becky, and congrats.
- [21:21]
Angela Kinsey
Thank you.
- [21:25]
Becky Malinski
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- [22:20]
Jenna Fisher
I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies. Just because we finished rewatching the Office does not mean we're going anywhere. Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing each even more exclusive stories from the Office and our friendship with brand new guests. Plus, you can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. So follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odysee app and wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:54]
Lauren Sherman
Other than your holiday collection. I thought you did a really nice Post right before Black Friday that I cited in line sheet about it's okay to opt out of this sales insanity. And it definitely. I'm never super shoppy during that period because I always just want stuff that's full price. Same I bought a pair of full price boots. But yeah, that's, that's my problem. But it did make me think, okay, just remember I don't need any of this stuff. And I know that like everything's 70% off in Edo Porter right now, but I don't need it. But you are constantly surveying the market. What do you think are some great secret deals right now? That if people are shopping and want to dig into this sales season, this like two month long sales season, you. You think they should check out?
- [23:57]
Angela Kinsey
I mean, I. It's always important for me to say that you need to be looking at the things you liked full price anyway. So like, yeah, I always will advise against, like, oh my God, I love the sweater in tan. And the green is on sale. Like do not buy the green, wait for the tan or just buy the tan and wear it and enjoy it. So I think there's a lot of that that you have to be careful of in the market.
- [24:24]
Lauren Sherman
I agree.
- [24:25]
Angela Kinsey
But what have I been looking at? Obviously I've been looking at Bally's website. They had a Black Friday deal and then I actually didn't pull the trigger on a blazer I had wanted. I had tried on a year ago in the store in Milan, but it was really expensive. I was like, what is happening with this particular blazer? That's like three grand. Yeah. And that was on sale and I almost bought it. And then I think I kind of. I do get into the Black Friday hysteria for my kid because, like, you know, like, you need new shoes like four times a year when you're four years old. So I like to buy lots of sizes and I kind of forgot. And then the next day the whole site went to 60. So I'm like, oh, great. So then I did just buy that blazer this morning because I was nervous. We would talk about it and then it would get sold out.
- [25:07]
Lauren Sherman
Congrats.
- [25:08]
Angela Kinsey
So Bali has a pretty good sale right now. But you do have to pay attention to the models they use because not all of it is Simone's designs. You know, they had. They put up some of the old stuff that is like not the Bally we know and love.
- [25:22]
Lauren Sherman
There's also some Ruigi stuff in there.
- [25:24]
Angela Kinsey
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [25:25]
Lauren Sherman
Best of luck to Ruigi. I'm A fan but yeah it's not. It's not for us.
- [25:30]
Angela Kinsey
So someone else. I definitely bought a couple things there this like last week weirdly form, you know. Ffo.
- [25:37]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [25:38]
Angela Kinsey
They're having an insane sale because they have a new creative director coming. Yeah thanks. So I. Yeah.
- [25:43]
Lauren Sherman
Paul Halbers is gone so yeah.
- [25:46]
Angela Kinsey
Which those clothes which don't really read as anything online so it's kind of hard. Are so beautiful and well constructed. Their sales right now are crazy. Like $3,000 jackets for $700. So like check those out. I just noticed that yesterday when doing some newsletter research. I also love Lisa Yang sweaters which feel very expensive just because it's not like a as well of a no name brand. But the quality is so amazing and I. Those are on sale everywhere right now like Saks and Mytheresa and find great deals on those and those are the best sweaters. So highly recommend that. How's that? That a good list?
- [26:26]
Lauren Sherman
That's a great one. I've never bought a Lisa Yang sweater.
- [26:29]
Angela Kinsey
Oh they're so nice. They're so soft and the cuts are nice and the colors are nice. Highly recommend.
- [26:36]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. I'm on a big and daughter kick which is not having a sale nor should they.
- [26:42]
Angela Kinsey
Like those are I love and daughter too and those are like still made in heritage factories and they're so well priced as it is.
- [26:51]
Lauren Sherman
I bought one probably the first or second season. This was when I still lived in Dumbo and was blowing out my hair every day and it was short so this had to be 2012. Maybe it was really early because I was blowing my hair out pre pre baby from Dirty Dancing hair but. And I ended up. I don't know if I ended up keeping it but then I bought another because it was like the first fit wasn't exactly right but I could tell and I really like the story and the woman who runs it. I think her dad was in the business or something like that's why it's named Ann daughter. But I thought she was interesting and had a good aesthetic. And then last year I bought one of the wool sweaters and I just love the fit. I love all the Aaron's. Is it Aaron or Aaron knits that they just launched around and don a lot of Donna stuff from Donegal. So it. It feels very. I just bought a sweater that feels very J. Crew in 1998 which. Yeah, I'm so excited. I had a similar one from J. Crew in 1998.
- [28:05]
Angela Kinsey
Is it the one with the speckles?
- [28:06]
Lauren Sherman
Yes, I did. I got the speckles one. Yeah.
- [28:09]
Angela Kinsey
Nice.
- [28:09]
Lauren Sherman
I think it'll look good with skirts too.
- [28:12]
Angela Kinsey
It's going to be great. And it's that it's sort of fitted and not too boxy, but not tight in the bad way.
- [28:19]
Lauren Sherman
Exactly, exactly. So, Becky, have you ever shopped on TikTok?
- [28:24]
Angela Kinsey
Never shopped on TikTok, but my sister spends a lot of time on TikTok shop talk.
- [28:30]
Lauren Sherman
So she's buying stuff on there or is this for her job?
- [28:34]
Angela Kinsey
You know, I don't know if she's actually ever bought it, anything on it, but we were actually. Actually, we were talking about it this morning when I was waiting for the bus. I was. I called her and we got into a whole talk, like, conversation about shop talk.
- [28:48]
Lauren Sherman
What did she have to say?
- [28:50]
Angela Kinsey
We were kind of Talking about how TikTok is basically just a platform for dupe culture and sheen and like, Shein and TikTok may as well be like the same company. So, like, it's not actually like a good place for brands. It's a place that people can just copy your brand.
- [29:11]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. Well, it's sort of replacing, in some ways, Amazon. Yeah, it's like Amazon meets qvc. Yeah. Meets Google. It's much bigger than Shein in terms of revenue, which is crazy. It only launched in 2023. In September 2023. TikTok shop. TikTok shop talk, sure. Whatever it's called, Whatever shops.
- [29:35]
Angela Kinsey
Wow. Okay.
- [29:36]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [29:36]
Angela Kinsey
I mean, the whole company is only started in 2018 or something, right?
- [29:40]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. The being able to shop in the app.
- [29:42]
Angela Kinsey
Okay.
- [29:43]
Lauren Sherman
Only started a year and a half ago.
- [29:45]
Angela Kinsey
Got it.
- [29:45]
Lauren Sherman
But I will say it feels fake. Like it's just like, who is buying all this crap? But I did buy something from there.
- [29:53]
Angela Kinsey
Okay. What?
- [29:54]
Lauren Sherman
I bought this. So you know that how I get this de. Frizzing treatment that has this deep frizzing treatment is gonna be the end of me. I've decided to phase out of it because the thing is, I live in la. My hair is very, very coarse, very, very curly. It's also very dry here. So it's not. It's frizzy in a different way. Like, it's. It's easier to maintain in some ways and more difficult to maintain in other ways. And this past year, I also started getting my hair dyed because it just got way too gray. And please do not write in being like, you should let your hair go gray. I don't want to. I'm not ready. Like, it's. A lot of people look great with gray hair. I don't want to. It's not for me for now, anyway. I started dyeing it so my hair is just like, a lot yuckier than it used to be. So I started getting this de frizzing treatment. But the problem with it is it makes my hair look great. I can blow out my hair with no problem, or I would never blow my own hair out. I can have someone blow out my hair or, you know, when it first. The first time I got it, it just like, loosened the curl and it made it just much easier to manage. But the problem is if you do it too much, it straightens your hair too much. And so I have to. Essentially, I'm. Now I'm trying to phase out of it. I think I'm going to do it instead of every three months, every six months, but so it. So it doesn't get stringy. But essentially I have to blow my hair out all the time or my hair looks weird. It's. And, like, parts of it will be straight and other parts curly, and it's just a disaster. So I bought this kind of blow dryer, slash. It's not a blow dryer. It's a. A curling brush that also sort of. It has heat in it. So it blows your hair out at the same time or straightens your hair at the same time you're brushing it. And there's an expensive version of this brush that works really well. So someone recommends this brush to me. I see this girl on TikTok with, like, Puffy, frizzy hair. Use it. It looks beautiful. I bought it, it was $40. It sort of works. Also, I'm not good. I've never done my hair. When I wear my hair straight, I've literally never tried to blow my own hair out. Like, I am not gonna blow my.
- [32:21]
Angela Kinsey
Hair out of the brush. It's you.
- [32:22]
Lauren Sherman
It's partially me and partially, like, I don't know how to. There's no explanation of how to get the heat correct. So, yeah, there's a lot of that stuff is selling on there. And I think when you look at implications of a potential TikTok ban, and we're going to get into this more at the end of this week, we have a special guest on Friday who's going to really dig into it. But when you look at it, I think the biggest threat of TikTok shops is a threat to Amazon and their dominance in marketplace. Because what TikTok Shops has done is taken the QVC model and the Amazon Marketplace model and merge them. You get a cool girl to do sell your fake stuff and, or your dupe stuff and suddenly it's just wild and crazy the amount of product that you can sell. But I also think for, for bigger brands, like a lot of luxury brands sell fragrance and that stuff's available on there, but they're also marketing on TikTok. For the first few years, the marketing on TikTok was really tricky because it had to be super organic and not feel like it was coming from the brand and. But I think that's changed a bit and that a lot of these brands do rely on TikTok for exposure. And you know, when the TikTok ban was supposed to happen a couple years ago I wrote about it and said, look, like there's always another platform and people will just reallocate their funds. But, but this has become a big place for conversation for brands, for better and worse. And, and I do think the immediate thing will be that the money and the conversation will go back to Instagram, go back to Meta, but I don't think that's what will happen long term. Do you spend any time on there?
- [34:17]
Angela Kinsey
Don't spend a lot of time on TikTok, I think. I don't know if maybe I've aged out of the generation of spending time on TikTok, but yeah, I don't know where those dollars will eventually end up. What I'm hoping this whole conversation about is, I mean, do we actually think it's going to get banned? I don't know. I just hope that we can take this information about, like, who is creating this content that you're paying for, who is reading it. I think there's always going to be. It's always good to have accountability and have transparency. So it does kind of feel like it's the first time that people are questioning, like putting their marketing dollars onto these kind of platforms and like what the outcome is going to be and who is controlling that and controlling the data. So I am really curious about that and how that will influence the future of where companies are going to put their marketing dollars. So, like, probably won't get banned, right? I mean, I don't know. I don't know anything about this.
- [35:21]
Lauren Sherman
I think there's a chance it will.
- [35:23]
Angela Kinsey
You do?
- [35:24]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah, before I didn't, but I.
- [35:26]
Angela Kinsey
Before you didn't, but now you do.
- [35:27]
Lauren Sherman
And we'll see. My special guest this week is an expert on this, so she'll know better. But I don't want to reveal just in case something happens with the scheduling and it doesn't happen but it's. It's an interesting person.
- [35:39]
Angela Kinsey
But it does sound like it's making us have those conversations about, like, how are those marketing dollars getting spent and where and what the value is? And that will translate to the other platforms, too. And I'm hoping that sort of opens those conversations of what the value is and, like, where the human element is going to come into all of this. Because so much of it is algorithm based and I don't even know. It just all feels very overwhelming and opaque. And I'm hoping that all of this, like, opens that up and makes people recognize where they're putting their dollars.
- [36:11]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [36:11]
Angela Kinsey
But I don't really know because I don't spend a ton of time on there. But I, again, I don't think I'm the audience. I'm not shopping on Sheen. I don't. I'm not looking for dupes. So, no.
- [36:24]
Lauren Sherman
You know, I feel like I need to be on there more than I am for my job, but I honestly, I can't do it. My head is too.
- [36:33]
Angela Kinsey
I was listening to the Fresh Air podcast about the. About the ban, and the host was just talking about how, oh, this is all, you know, going on under our noses and so many of us don't understand. And I'm thinking, wait, that's our responsibility, though. Like, we have to understand. Like, I don't like that excuse of, like, there's this whole subculture, because it's not a subculture. This is half of America. And I do feel like I need to know a little bit more about what going on there. It's my. That's my job.
- [37:01]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah. I mean, the other thing is a lot of my stories are regurgitated on there and by quote unquote, experts who disseminate the information. It's like a new form of plagiarism. So sometimes I get sent those and I'm like, what are you going to do? But, yeah, I should be monitoring them and policing these. These terrible people. Just kidding. I'm happy to have the exposure, but credit me.
- [37:33]
Unknown
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- [38:37]
Angela Kinsey
He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ads. My friends still laugh at me to this day.
- [38:49]
Becky Malinski
Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn.
- [38:52]
Unknown
You'Ll be able to reach people who.
- [38:54]
Becky Malinski
Do get $100 credit on your next ad campaign.
- [38:56]
Unknown
Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results.
- [39:02]
Lauren Sherman
Terms and conditions apply.
- [39:03]
Unknown
LinkedIn the place to be.
- [39:05]
Becky Malinski
To be.
- [39:08]
Lauren Sherman
You know what's going to be on TikTok a lot? This news about all these designers moving from one place to another. And this morning, and we're recording this on Monday morning, Dries Van Noten announced the expected promotion of Julian Klausner to creative director. Julian is a Belgian designer. He's super young, I think 33, and he's been at the studio since 2018. So essentially right out of grad school. And he's taking over for Dries, who's still around, still keeps an office, is still kind of consulting, but has decided to do more gardening and not spend his life slave to the fashion cycle. So what do you think about this appointment in particular? And then we can get into some of the other speculation.
- [40:02]
Angela Kinsey
Well, I read Tim Blanks's article this morning, like, before I even got out of bed. So did I. It was so nice and it was talking about something we talk about all the time, that it doesn't need to be another name moving to another house. And can't people be looking in their studio at young talent who know the business?
- [40:21]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [40:22]
Angela Kinsey
So I don't know. I think that's great and nice. I mean, would I still am like, oh my God, yes, another white man promoted. So there's a bit of that that I have a problem with. I'm like, how is it possible that women are still not getting promoted into these roles. But I do like that it's someone relatively unknown coming from inside the house getting a chance. Because, I mean, we don't need more of the same rotation going around and around. We need new talent. It's the same problem in every industry at the moment.
- [40:53]
Lauren Sherman
But, yeah, well, we can talk about a woman who does seem to be getting promoted into one of these roles in a minute. But really quickly on that point, I talked about this with some designers who are based in Europe and work at these houses who are women. And look, I never want to judge any of these particular appointments because they all happen for very specific reasons. And I just think, like, you are totally right. Like, it shouldn't be all white men. It should be all everybody getting these jobs. And a big issue is that at the bottom, people who are interns, they're. They're hiring their friends when they're, you know, assistants and their friends tend to look like them. And it's the same problem in every industry. So this is a bigger issue for like HR at these big companies where they need to create some sort of program or circumstances where a more diverse group of people get internships in the first place, because that's where it all starts. The other point is, I think for a lot of women, if you want to be a mother, the way that these, many of these companies operate is that you're in the office till midnight and that's just the way it is. And it's only for a couple of weeks each season that it's like that. But you are working nonstop and you have to work the way the designer works. And if the Designer works for two weeks before the show and does works, you know, 12 to 12 and sleeps for two hours, you have to do that too. And for, especially in Europe where, like being a mother, people, if you, when you become a mother, that's your first job and everyone around you thinks that, so they assume that you're not going to have a nanny stay. You need to be home with your kid. And it's interesting because moms and dads get so much more time, parental leave and all that. But when you go back to work, there is this, for many companies, like this idea that, okay, well, you're a mom first now, so you aren't going to want to do that work even if they want to. And so it's really complicated. I think in the circumstance. I agree. I thought what Tim wrote was, it's really smart and it really speaks to this brand, is A unique brand. And I don't think you can have an outside person come in. And it's also. It's probably at its peak of sales. It was a slow burn for Dries. Everybody in fashion has always loved Dries, but now it's a really big brand that is sold at Mohawk General or Nordstrom or whatever, which wasn't the case, you know, 10 years ago, even so.
- [43:40]
Angela Kinsey
Totally. And he's still around. So that.
- [43:42]
Lauren Sherman
And he's still around.
- [43:44]
Angela Kinsey
And we all saw how it worked out with Peter Hawkins.
- [43:46]
Lauren Sherman
Exactly. So it's interesting because the Peter Hawkins thing, he worked for Tom Ford for 20 or 30 years and it was so enmeshed that it was probably. They were probably too close. But the nice thing about this situation is that this guy has been working there for six years, and so he really understands it. But I'm sure he has his own ideas. Like, he hasn't even come close to reaching his creative peak.
- [44:13]
Angela Kinsey
So it's exciting.
- [44:15]
Lauren Sherman
I'm excited for him. And Tim delicately brought up the fact that the last show was not well received generally. And I think the other thing we have to remember with all of these guys, all of these people is give them some time. Like, it's just so. It's so hard to judge these things. And you should get three years. That's what I keep saying with Salvador di Sarno. It's really hard when companies bleeding money to do something like that, but they should get three years to figure it out. Peter Cupping was a. I mean, not Peter Cupping. Peter Hawkins was a different situation. Speaking of Peter Copping, I'm very excited for his Lambin debut in January. I wish I could go. So on the appointment chain, the game of musical chairs. Speaking of women, I heard from a really, really good source last week that Louise Trotter got the Bottega job. I called another person very close to the situation and they shockingly confirmed it to me. And I was like, oh, that's real. And so in my latest kind of report on the most recent info about Matouk Blasey going to Chanel, I mentioned it and then the next day a couple other outlets mentioned it. Did not credit me. It's fine.
- [45:44]
Angela Kinsey
It's fine. You're not writing it down?
- [45:46]
Lauren Sherman
No, not at all. I mean, I know if it makes them feel better not to credit me, that's. It's really okay. So, boo. The question for you is, what do you think about that? Like, you've. I'm sure you've been following Louise's career. She worked at Joseph, where she. That's where I met her, and I thought she did a really great job there. That's that British brand that has been around forever. And they also, you know, it's. I thought she did a really nice job there when she was there. And then she went to Lacoste, and now she's at Carvin. What do you think of Louise? I generally, like, I've only met her a couple times. I really like her as a person. She's just cool and is strong and seems very down to earth. But what do you think of her designs and the prospect of her taking over for Mattieu at Bottega?
- [46:33]
Angela Kinsey
I loved her at Lacoste. I wish. I mean, this is a tangent, but I just, like, wish Lacoste could figure out how to produce their clothes. Like, I feel like they constantly are, like, investing in Runway and design, and it just doesn't go anywhere but back. Back to Louise. I think she's so good at what she does. I think she has a very clear identity and idea. Like, I think those carving clothes and shows are really beautiful. Like, they caught on very quickly. People, like, it was sort of like, it only took one season to get everybody to go to the show next season. And they're really beautiful. I think the clothes are really big. I think they're actually kind of hard to digest as a regular shopper. Like, I really like them, but I almost think they're almost too big for me. And I love things really oversized. I haven't quite figured out, like, what my carving piece would be. I constantly look at it and I'm like, oh, what? What would I buy? What should I buy? I haven't quite figured it out yet. But, like, she is designing for herself, and I love that. Like, because if you like something, there will be other people who feel that way. I think Bottega is a very, like, what it has become in the last few years is very structured, very oversized. Like, it almost seems like a perfect match for the technical abilities of Bottega with her design aesthetic. I don't know. I think it's a great idea.
- [47:59]
Lauren Sherman
Okay. So I have gotten a lot of feedback about her, especially from women who are saying the same thing. I am going to be totally honest. I really don't like Carvin, and I don't think it works. I think that, like, it feels too derivative. And also, I went to the first show, I went to the second show, and I was like, I don't want to engage with this anymore. And I really, really like her. But also Everyone I know who loves clothes was into it. You like it, Leandra likes it. Like, you're not the only two people, but you are my two fashion editors. So I struggled with it quite a bit, and it just felt like I wanted more ideas. I wanted more of her because she is. Is like you said. And I thought out of everything she did, Joseph was great. I really liked what she did at Lacoste. I thought it just, like, always looks so good with this. I just wasn't. I just feel like it wasn't right. And what it could have been is the company that owns it. It's a bit of a unique situation. It may be that I was sensing, because of my Spidey senses, usually on the business side, some sort of disconnect between the business motivations and the. And the brand itself. But I think generally, look, she is a person who has worked really, really hard and is not flashy, doesn't seem to want to be the center of attention, and yet has been able to command people's eyeballs at these smaller brands that really don't deserve or don't. It's not that they don't deserve, but they don't do a lot to get you to pay attention. But she's able to. She's been able to do it in this really quiet, dignified way. And so I feel like she will have the. She has the, like, all the ingredients to make it work at Bottega. And I do also think having a woman there is really exciting prospect because Matthieu, there's something very gentle about him. And I thought his women's clothes were, like, far better than the men's. Like, and so I think, like, all these people who went back to Bottega when Mattieu returned, who, all these women who wore it when Thomas Meyer was there and then suddenly were excited by the prospect of what Matthieu was doing. I feel like she can connect with those women really well and also the new generation. So I hope it. It works out.
- [50:41]
Angela Kinsey
You made two interesting, interesting points. I mean, one is that, like, you think Carvin is too derivative. Like, you liked Joseph because that's a derivative brand. So maybe the fit worked. So, like, May, we'll see if that works at Bottega, where, again, it's a brand that you want new ideas. But also I feel like the infrastructure is really set up at Bottega to help her with the fit. And, like, I'm looking at the Carvin website right now as we're talking about this, and, like, some of those Shoulders. Like, I get what she's doing, but you have to be really tall to wear all these clothes. So I think the idea of having an atelier, like a Italian atelier, which I think Italian clothes just fit better than French clothes for the majority of body types.
- [51:25]
Lauren Sherman
Yeah.
- [51:25]
Angela Kinsey
Like, I. That, I think will be great for her.
- [51:29]
Lauren Sherman
Oh, you know what I definitely need, though? I mean, this material doesn't look great. I just googled Carvin and Annette a porte. The scarf detailed twill blouse in red. Oh, my God, it's gorgeous.
- [51:43]
Angela Kinsey
I mean, the website is beautiful. There's a lot of things.
- [51:45]
Lauren Sherman
The skirt I want to love. No, the skirt is just not the. But here's the thing. Like, all this stuff, it's. It's almost exactly right. And that is what I think the challenge of it has been to me is like, yep, I should. I should want it myself. And this. This sweater I do want. I mean, well, I wish it was a knit. That's the other thing it's in. What's the material?
- [52:12]
Angela Kinsey
Cool, though. The issue is, it would be great. This is all cut for someone six feet tall. I think if they had someone in there who could say, talk about real fit, all of these clothes would be perfect.
- [52:25]
Lauren Sherman
Well, yeah. And that could be a matter of choosing the right stylist. So let's see if it happens. Anyway, I think it's gonna happen, and I hope it does. We wish her the best and will be really cool. Becky, this was fabulous.
- [52:39]
Angela Kinsey
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [52:41]
Lauren Sherman
Thanks for being here. And. And I'm sure we'll talk soon. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck, hosted by Lauren Sherman. That's me. Our executive producers are John Kelly, co founder of Puck, Ben Landy, executive editor of Puck, Gabby Grossman, director of editorial operations at Puck, and Bob Tabador, executive producer at Odysee. Edited, mixed and mastered by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, including J.D. crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman, Maddy Sprung Keyser, Josefina Francis, Hilary Schupf, and Kurt Courtney.