C (3:27)

It's my honor to be here. As soon as said Happy Friday, I realized that I didn't have breakfast this morning. I don't know if you're going to ask me.

A (3:35)

I wasn't. Because this is technically the top of the show. Instead of doing an intro, everybody read all my stories, read the article about Missoni, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What I usually do. We're going to get right into it because sometimes stuff can't wait till next Tuesday. And I was like, I don't think this Vanity Fair stuff is going to hold till next Tuesday. And then this morning, the Megan Marle cover dropped.

C (3:56)

Yes, it did.

A (3:57)

We are here to discuss. Everyone should listen to Amanda and her partner Juliet Littman on Jam Session, discuss not only Vanity Fair covers, but their take on Olivia and Nuzzy I found really compelling. Let's talk Vanity Fair immediately and what you thought of this cover. And we can get into the, like, Jonathan Anderson of it all, because I feel like you'll get to discuss this in a way that maybe more, more in depth than the Jam Session listener would want.

C (4:30)

The. The Dior of it all, for sure.

A (4:32)

Yes, yes, yes. Tell me what you thought.

C (4:35)

Well, I, I woke up to this cover. I woke up to a text message from you to myself and Juliette Lemon, thank you so much for breaking the news, the personal services you offer.

A (4:44)

Because now I get up at 5am Every single. Today. I got up at 4.

C (4:49)

So you sent me one of the three covers. And I guess that's, that's my first question is, so are these. These are split covers this year.

A (4:57)

Split covers, not a. A pull out like it normally is. Which I was, I had a really nice dinner last night with some people and they were like, we missed the pull out cover. So. Right.

C (5:07)

So, I mean, you know, the Hollywood issue is for a specific site, type of magazine and movie nerd, which is essentially me, like a hallowed Vanity Fair tradition. Right. And you spend some of the year trying to guess who is going to be included in what is a traditionally like a large portfolio of movie stars. Most years it's intergenerational.

A (5:28)

Right.

C (5:29)

Or it has been. And so you get like, you know, you get Nicole Kidman along with Zendaya, which I think was the, the main the front cover last year, but then it's kind of 10 to 12 people and so, and, and it's the, and it's the big collage historically that has been, and how do they get everyone together and, or for Photoshop everyone together because it's hard to get people in the 12 people in the same room. So I, I, I was surprised and at first you only sent me one cover so I was like, okay, so are these the only people that they got? And I love, let me say that I love every single one of the boys who is on these photos. And they all look adorable.

A (6:11)

They look so cute. They look very cute.

C (6:14)

But I was a little confused wattage wise and, and because I thought I was looking at the main photo, I guess as a split cover. I don't know. They're cute. I personally like it. I have found that in general when something is so tailor made to me that that means it's bad for the marketplace.

A (6:35)

I, yes, I, I feel similarly.

C (6:38)

So I, you know, I think that it is a statement. I know there's already been a lot of, I don't know whether you want to call it backlash, but for example, on Jam Session, my co host and friend Juliet Lippman, I wouldn't, I wouldn't characterize it as taking issue but the, the tagline, let's hear it for the boys. Which is cute. Just like I don't, I don't really care about, I, I'm, I'm not in a mood to be hearing about boys or men. I do find that there is a distinction between the boys and men. And, and I was in on the joke, but many people aren't and that's fine. That's, that is their re, their right. The flip side of that is like it's good magazine making, right? Because it gets people talking.

A (7:19)

Agreed. Look, so when I first found out about this, my subhead was men are back.

C (7:26)

Right?

A (7:27)

Which is like I'm being ironic, but it's true. Like men are back in, in the same way. Like the anti woke culture swinging. It's basically like what's happening to the American man, right? He's in crisis. Every single magazine talks about this. It's, it's an issue that has been, is, is like in the middle of everything. So when I found out that it was actually going to be more about Internet boyfriends and it was like sort of tongue in cheek, I liked it. I also think that, and I said this to Peter Hamby on Friday's Powers that Be, I think like the world is a little boy crazy right now.

C (8:05)

Yeah, sure.

A (8:06)

Like maybe you and I are a little more boy crazy than Juliet in some ways, maybe.

C (8:12)

But I also, and you know, not to be reductive or, or essentialist about the Vanity Fair audience, but I do think the Hollywood cover has traditionally been for straight women and gay men. You know, so it's knowing its audience. And again, they look ador horrible. The video content is them watching YouTube videos. Like, that's cute. That's understands what I want it to be. And. And I guess has also generated, you know, headlines outside of its own echo chamber. So I.

A (8:44)

Yes, and so I have a question. The Hollywood bit. But let's talk a little bit about the details and why what I think Mark was trying to do, or maybe not consciously, but look like he used Theo Wenner who shot the Dior menswear campaign. That's like very Bruce Weber coded. And he had Tom Guinness styled it. He's like this cool. He styled the COVID of Jeremy Allen White interview cover.

C (9:12)

Right.

A (9:13)

He's like a British stylish stylist. He's married to Tish Weinstock, who is a writer and personality and they're like a very hot British couple. He used, like the set decorator was this cool woman. Like, it, it all was very coded towards, as I wrote, like I'm an upper middle class white woman who spends too much money on clothes. Like, I'm interested in all these things. And also I'd say that main cover, those are five people who I am interested in. Like all of them may be.

C (9:48)

Well, is that the main cover is something that we should discuss?

A (9:51)

But in my mind it is. Yeah.

C (9:53)

So I guess a year or two years ago I texted you and I said, I'm really into the Loewe boys. And there was just a whole core of like up and coming actors who were regularly at the Jonathan Anderson shows. You know, Josh o' Connor being like, first and foremost. I think Joe Allen is there a lot. Who else am I forgetting? And he was always curating. They weren't the main franchise like biggest, most recognizable Hollywood stars. They were people, young men who were in younger movies, I guess. You know, I mean, Daniel Craig was James Bond and he was like a. He was an honorary Loewe boy. But that was sort of added in as like part of the joke. But it was a group of young, up and coming, very talented actors with what I deem to be like, good movie taste who would show up in Jonathan Anderson clothes and look cute. And then many of them have Moved on to Dior. And this does it is the Louisville Boys effect gone mainstream, which again, I really enjoy. But I. It is. How many people do you think, like, if you went out on the street with these covers, all three of them and asked just a random person, like, how many of these men can you name? I don't know.

A (11:15)

But this is the thing. If you saw a photo of. Who's that guy with the burgers? The YouTube star?

C (11:24)

I honestly, I have no idea. Like, is that.

A (11:26)

Is it Mr.

C (11:27)

Beast?

A (11:27)

Mr. Beast.

C (11:28)

He has burgers.

A (11:30)

Yeah, it's disgusting. Google Mr. Beast. Disgusting burgers.

C (11:34)

I will not. I will not.

A (11:37)

But the point being, like, I think we live in a very fragmented culture. What Mark needs to do is sell advertising. And. And from my sourcing the fashion magazine, the fashion pages were up I think 50% in this issue. And the overall now look like how much are they selling them for versus what they used to? I can't tell you that. But then. And the overall advertising was up 22%. So if he is trying to get fashion brands to. If he's trying to get Terry, who works at Loewe to buy advertising in Vanity Fair, I think that it was effective in that way. But it is interesting because it is such. He's picking very like for the COVID he did like having like Issy Wood do a digital cover. Like these are things that only a very select group of people who work at media have any. Like Chris Black is into it. Great. I mean all the. How long gone people I was into it.

C (12:38)

I felt the Issy Wood cover was much more flattering than the main cover that they went with. And I ride for Charli XCX for life. So I want her to have the best cover that she can get. But I see your point.

A (12:47)

Yeah, so. So I think it's. It's an interesting way to approach all of this. And, and also I think like in the end we are all talking about it. I've talked about it at every meal I've had. Everybody has an opinion. Some people, most. Most of the women and gays love it. And I guess that's what he's trying to do. Let's see when he. When his creative director, Jennifer Pastore, she's like really involved and see, see all his new writers. Let's see what happens in Jan, Jan, Feb and all of that. And for the Vanity Fair party, which, let's be honest, that's what he really needs to nail. If he nails that, he'll be okay.

C (13:24)

Do you know whether appearance in The Hollywood issue, whether that translates to a mandatory appearance at the Vanity Fair party.

A (13:32)

You know, probably not. But what I do know, because I did do a bunch of reporting on this prior to his arrival, because they moved back the issue to November. It used to be February. To align with the party. People love going to this party, even when it sucks. Like, there have been several years in the past few years where people are like, the party blew. But, like, everyone in Hollywood just wants to go. They don't care. So I think.

C (13:59)

I think they want that photo. That carpet photo has become the Hollywood version of the Met Gala.

A (14:05)

And.

C (14:06)

And they've really amped it up. And so everybody has a. Everyone who goes to the ceremony has a second outfit. The who's who of, like, of. Of who got to walk the Vanity Fair red carpet does have power. Yeah, I. Listen, if all of these. All of these young men are going to be at the Vanity Fair party, I would love to attend, too.

A (14:26)

We. We would both like invites.

C (14:28)

I don't think I'll be getting one based on my Olivia nuts, Olivia Nazi opinions, but that's. That's fine.

A (14:34)

I don't want to talk about Olivia Nuzzy. All I want to say is someone in my Slack channel was like, what do you think? How do you think Mark feels about Olivia Nuzzy now that this Mark Sanford stuff came out? I'm like, I'm sure Mark is thrilled.

C (14:48)

Like, this is the point. This is the point. He hired her.

A (14:52)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay, so really quickly on this final thing, if you could have put this cover together and you were going with all male. Who do you think? Like, obviously, Timothy Chalamet is not on there. And our. Our favorite Josh o'. Connor.

C (15:08)

Right. And I had forgotten, Lauren, that. That Josh o' Connor was on last year's.

A (15:13)

He was.

C (15:14)

He was like, the middle panel. You had to fold out for him, but he was there.

A (15:17)

Yeah.

C (15:18)

My buddy. Like, I don't know. Glenn Powell. I'm a huge fan of Glenn Powell. He was on both last year's and this year's.

A (15:24)

He's on every cover.

C (15:25)

He's. Well, you listen. He works hard. He's trying to be a movie star. So Callum Turner, who is possibly best known as Dua Lipa's fiance, but who's also. He's adorable. He's in a romantic comedy that's coming out in a couple weeks with Miles Teller, and I noted that. So Callum. And it's a love triangle. Elizabeth Olsen has to pick between her.

A (15:50)

I know who I would pick. I don't need to see the movie.

C (15:53)

Her husband's in the afterlife and her husband, her, her husband's, her first husband's Caleb Turner and her second husband is Miles Teller. Miles Seller is not on the COVID but he's pretty great. And he instead is doing the press tour where Kyle and Turner got the Vanity Fair cover. And Miles Teller and his co stars Elizabeth Olsen and Divine Joy Randolph were in the New York Times cooking, feeding the sourdough starter, which is like another thing that is happening.

A (16:19)

Uh oh, what do you think of the sour. So in these videos, people. Yeah, there's like a video where they're having celebrities in the New York Times now and they are always kitchen, in the cooking kitchen. And like part of the gimmick is that they feed the sourdough starter.

C (16:38)

Right.

A (16:38)

And I find it very weird, but.

C (16:40)

I'm curious and they, and they say encouraging things, well, you know, strategy content wise. And I really hate myself for using the word content, but it's, it's like a little franchise that they have. Right. And so now I'm like, oh, I see these people are in the kitchen and like, what did they say to the starter? I prefer the other videos. You know, Emma Stone was in there and it was the first time she'd ever microplaned garlic. She prefers like a garlic press. So now that's something that I know about Emma Stone. I, I like to cook. I find it, you know, it's fascinating that that is like a burgeoning press tour stop of, you know, people doing relatable things and that, that, you know, it's that versus the old school Hollywood issues. But my reaction to the, the Hollywood issue and to casting it was like I, I loved it. I can't believe some of the people said yes. I can't believe Michael B. Jordan said yes. He is going to be nominated for most likely for best actor for Sinners, which is one of the most successful movies of the year. He's like in London, I believe, directing a Thomas Crown affair. Like he is a big, big star and doing a shared cover. Even if he gets Paul Masco and Austin Butler, which I think is what you would call like the quote, a cover.

D (17:53)

Sure.

A (17:53)

But still not in my mind. But you're right. Yes.

C (17:56)

Well, but you know, just from like a career perspective, I agree. Yes. He is so far and way ahead financially with them. I'm like, shouldn't you be cover only, sir? Like, shouldn't you. I'm sure Timothy Chalamet was approached, you know, of course, but, and, and that's a hard no. So I, I'm, I'm happy for most of these people. And also kind of like, I don't know what the strategy is, and I don't know whether sharing a cover is what I want for them.

A (18:27)

Yeah. So maybe next year they'll do a single. It would be, I think it would be a powerful statement to just do one person next year.

C (18:34)

Yeah.

A (18:34)

Given that, you know, but then it's.

C (18:37)

Kind of like if that person, if that person's movie flames out, if they don't get the Oscar nomination, you know, you're just kind of, it's, it's unpredictable these days, especially in terms of box office.

A (18:46)

Yeah. Okay, so great point. So onto a single cover.

C (18:51)

Yeah.

A (18:52)

This morning, the Meghan Markle Harper's Bazaar cover dropped. We knew it was coming. Yeah.

C (18:58)

You know, you're tapped in.

A (19:00)

I'm tapped in. So what did you think?

C (19:03)

Well, as I said to you before, I didn't actually read the piece yet. I scanned through the photos and the fashion credits and as always, I think she looks incredibly beautiful. It's not hard to make her look beautiful. I appreciated the relative lack of retouching.

A (19:21)

I agree. Yes.

C (19:22)

Hers is a, hers is a face that doesn't need it. And yeah, she, I like, she really, she really is incredibly beautiful. Usually photographs very well. And I think these photographs did pay off the clothes. Like, I found the credit's hilarious. You know, like, yeah. You know, from like Ms. Shot my just in, like in full the row or. I, I, I was tickled by the Balenciaga credit.

A (19:45)

Yes.

C (19:45)

You know, her quote, unquote, best friend sent that along. But I, I, I follow a substack that is like a, a royal reporter who just spends all his time and they seem.

A (20:02)

Is this the Sykes?

C (20:04)

Yes, Tom Sykes, brother of Sykes.

A (20:06)

I've heard, I've only heard good things.

C (20:08)

I really enjoy it. I would say that substack serves me too much of what his commenters have to say, and I'm really only there for Tom, but understood. I read a summary of what he had to say, and he identified that Megan was, like, announced to an empty townhouse as Megan, Duchess of Sussex. Again, that's like cherry picking. That's the only quote I read, which I. And otherwise, it seems like it's, you know, very charitable. I saw some pull quotes about how she's not trying to be perfect. Okay. I don't know. I, I guess it's a good look for her. It's not a bad look for her. Yeah.

A (20:46)

Yeah. I mean, my Feeling about it. I agree that she looks beautiful, because she is. I like that they didn't put a lot of makeup on her either. I think the styling was like. It's like how we wish she actually dressed, but doesn't. I thought she looked like the. The pieces were really nice and she looked beautiful. I personally just think it's sort of, like, flat. And I think that speaks to her, not to the production. The piece is fine. Like, I think the issue with her, to me, is that she. What I wrote, and maybe this will get edited out. Who knows? I just wrote it like, 10 minutes ago. But if she was not a princess, she would not be Kim Kardashian. And there is a thing about presence, and she obviously has had influence on people, but I think that was wrapped up in the fact that she was a princess and represented something new in this old culture that needs to go away anyway, so I think the. The anecdote I used is at the Balenciaga show, and I'm sure I said this to you. I don't know if I've said this on the podcast, but at the Balenciaga show, I'm sitting there in the front row. There were only two rows. I'm not trying to brag. Talking to a couple other writers, and we were just chatting. We all got there very early, and all of a sudden I feel someone walk by me, and it's Lauren Sanchez. And I was like, oh, my God, Meghan Markle walked by me. I did not feel it. And another writer was like, oh, my God, it's Meghan Markle. And she was already, like, way past us. I think to me, and look like my feelings are my feelings and the way. But I don't think I've seen her interact with people. I see the way she. We all have. If you've watched that show, I was gonna say, yeah, I. I don't think she has the presence or so whatever they're gonna do business wise, I just don't think she's not Kim Kardashian. She's not Diana. She's not someone who. She's not Oprah. Like, she's not someone who's gonna make you feel. And I think that eventually that is going to become a bigger and bigger issue for her, especially given there was, like, a report. Her publicist, once again, she once again removed a publicist or the publicist left or whatever.

C (23:11)

Right. I assume it's because they didn't keep the Kris Jenner birthday photos from being published.

A (23:17)

Oh, man. I mean, yeah.

C (23:19)

And Then got them taken down and had that reported. Yeah. I mean, that whole question that the whole the Meghan Markle stuff and I have followed, as ever, and with love, Megan. Her Netflix show more closely than I personally have wanted to is. And. And sort of by extension, the whole Montecito world is like, can you sell blandness? Can you make something it like it? Can something be inoffensive and still grab attention? Because that is, they are just sanding the edges off of absolutely everything and then hoping that people buy it. And I don't really know whether that works.

A (24:00)

And it's interesting because it's kind of what the Vanity Fair cover is, too. I'd say less so there's more intricacy, but there is still, like, blandness is like our whole culture now. And so they both are reflective of that in different ways.

C (24:14)

Yeah.

A (24:15)

And interesting how we react. It's very hard for me to write about her because I feel mean doing it.

C (24:21)

Yeah. No, I always try to say one nice thing, and my one nice thing usually ends up being that she is incredibly beautiful.

B (24:29)

Incredibly.

C (24:30)

And so. But even that feels sort of reductive and dismissive. Right. I'm like, writing about someone according to her appearance instead of her accomplishments.

A (24:37)

I.

C (24:37)

You can't really appoint to any impressive accomplishments this sad thing about them. Well, there are many sad things, but I think, you know, the Royal Family is an insane institution. But I think if. If they had been better treated, they would have been really good at their jobs. And I understand why they left, but that kind of was the perfect job for them if you put the institutional racism, which obviously you can't.

B (25:02)

Yes.

C (25:03)

So it's tough. Like, she kind of did find her perfect job, except just it was too much so. I don't know. But you can't really be a princess without. Without a castle.

A (25:18)

Agreed. And with that, as. As you always say, we wish them well, and I wish you well. Amanda, thank you for joining, and we will get going with Adam now. Adam Shapiro, welcome to Fashion People.

D (25:34)

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

A (25:36)

You know that it's a real issue when I have PR people on because they get jealous. So I've wanted to have you on for a while, but we needed a peg.

D (25:45)

Yeah. I'm sure you're gonna get harassed by about 40 others after this goes live.

A (25:48)

Yes. Yes. I mean, I love. You know, I love my PR people, so I'm happy to have the conversation. But we have good reason to speak today. Before we get started, what did have for breakfast this Morning.

D (25:59)

Oh, well, I had some yogurt with some muesli and some blueberries.

A (26:04)

So, so pretty and nice.

D (26:06)

Well, let me tell you, after like, a month of, like, binge eating baguettes and pasta, it's time to really, like, pull the cord.

A (26:13)

My body feels completely insane. We. We are recording this about a month, or a month and a half actually, before it's going to run several weeks. And we are both just getting back from Paris and I don't know how to live anymore is how.

D (26:32)

I am a baguette and I need to sort of just really assess my choices for the next few weeks, that's for sure.

A (26:40)

So when are you going to be going to India in the next. Will you get on a plane soon? You're based in London?

D (26:49)

Normally, I'm based in London. We have offices in New York and most recently in Mumbai. I am actually going to be heading over there at the end of October and then through the first week of November. So I'll be there for a week and a half.

A (27:04)

So really soon. Okay. So the reason I decided to have you on the podcast today was not to talk about the business of pr, even though you're very good at it, but more specifically the business of luxury fashion in India. Because you, as you mentioned, you opened an office there. You have a lot of big projects happening there. And India's. When I first started covering the luxury industry, and this is in the mid 2000s, everyone talked about the bric countries, so Brazil, Russia, India, China. And then five years later, the only thing we were ever talking about was China. And Brazil has its own set of problems. Russia obviously has many problems, but the India opportunity for luxury. I worked for a company run by an Indian person for a long time and, and we had a lot. We covered India quite a bit. I've always just been interested in the. The way wealthy people there spend their money and, and their engagement with Western brands, things like that, and, and so have you. So why don't you kind of give me a little bit of background on yourself and how you ended up having this deep connection to India and doing so much work there?

D (28:25)

Sure. Well, I am American, although I've been in London for 15 years. But in London, you know, having started my career in, in the States and going to university in New York, I then moved to London and eventually started my own PR agency. After a long time at KCD and stint at Burberry for a few years. And then as it happened, Dad, I.

A (28:45)

Forgot you were at Burberry.

D (28:47)

I know best time 2010 to 2012 aviators. And yeah, it was great. And that whole generation of Burberry kids has all gone on to do really interesting things. So it's what brought me to London in the first place, you know. And so, yeah, so I then opened the London office of KCD, eventually launched L52, which is eight years in now. And India, you know, sort of became an opportunity. Well, first of all, I married a man from Mumbai, so I actually have a deep personal connection to the country. And I've spent a lot of time there both in a personal capacity. And then also during COVID we launched sort of a side hustle, which is a men's fashion brand called SMR Days, which is really kind of resort, beach, kind of vacation wear. And because of that, I got really educated about the supply chain in India and artisanship and just sort of the real, the culture of producing clothes and how that's done there. And so through my knowledge of smr, you know, India started becoming a much more prominent sort of fashion region in my mind. And, you know, then I guess in the past year and a half or so, I just started hearing bubblings from so many of my clients and from other people about major investment pouring into the country, big opportunities, not to mention what we all read in terms of the quickly growing consumer class and the spending power of the market. And so I sort of pulled the trigger and it just sort of worked out really nicely in terms of some major kind of launches that's happening in the country, not least. And as you said, we're recording a bit in advance of this, but not least the opening of Galerie Lafayette in Mumbai. And then, you know, also, you know, common knowledge is that Saks will be opening next year, as will Corso Como. And so all of a sudden, you know, when you didn't have sort of major international retailers present, you now have. Have really big ones that, that are entering. And that means a lot of international brands are following them into the market for the first time.

A (30:55)

So what did you, as, as a person who runs this multinational media agency, what did you feel like a Western company like yours could do to support in Mumbai? And what are kind of the services that you're offering these brands or media or however you are working with them?

D (31:18)

Well, it's interesting because I think the flow of business really is going to go both ways. Already is going both ways. So on the one hand, you know, of course we're working with a lot of brands that we currently have in our roster that are going into the market. Working with international brands that already exist in India. But also because obviously I'm not from India, you know, we've hired, you know, we have a team there, we have, you know, a wonderful vice president there who was introduced to me by, by Sujata Asimal, who's the, the kind of great well known Indian journalist, launch editor of Harper's Bazaar India and is sort of our, our L52 Mumbai fairy godmother. She introduced me to my, my team there. And so we've got the local experts. They're the ones who really know the Indian market. They're the ones who really will help navigate brands coming in for the first time, helping people understand, not dissimilar, although a little bit more varied than the U.S. the regional markets are very important. You, you have of course Mumbai and Delhi being the major cities, but Bangalore, Hyderabad, there's all sorts of cities with, with great spending power and so navigating that is crucial. And then the other flow, and this is where I'm a little bit more of an expert is Indian brands, because of the scale of the market and how quickly it's been growing, have the power financially to start exploring, moving into Europe and the US and so helping them navigate how you enter those markets, being educated about the budget requirements to go into those markets, how media may perceive them. People that are super well known in India may come and find themselves like really having to almost start from scratch in terms of awareness in some of these markets. So that flow has ended up being, you know, something that I think is going to be really unique about how L52 is positioned because there of course are great agencies in India, there's great agencies outside, but to my knowledge we're sort of the first luxury fashion focused agency that now has offices both in Europe, the US and in India.

C (33:17)

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A (33:39)

Can you sort of break down? Because I've been thinking about this a lot because of the way the China luxury market is changing. And for decades they were just obsessed with Western brands, but now Chinese brands are kind of popping up. I wrote in Line Sheet a few days ago about the fact that I think of the top 10 grossing films in 2025 or in the past year, two of them were in China and were only distributed in China, so globally. So there's a lot more happening. But that was not the case for a long time. Whereas India does have its own luxury market, luxury brands. Can you explain why India set up like that and how it's different from a China or Korea or what have you in terms of how they interact with Western brands?

D (34:24)

It's a really good point because I think first of all, you know, people want to just draw this parallel between India being China 20 years ago and the next big place to invest your money and like the savior of the fashion industry. And you're right, there's a lot of nuance because the markets are incredibly different. Even if India is a major focus right now for people first, the fashion ecosystem in India is robust. The manufacturing, the artisanship. There's different communities all over the country that do that, specialize in even just a particular stitch from this one town. And that is because fashion is so integrated into the calendar of one's life in India. Weddings are huge business in India and any smart brand going into the market is going to figure out how you get into the weddings. It's not just the bride and the groom. It's like all the families, all the gift giving that that's part of the ceremony. I mean, it's a massive opportunity. And then furthermore, you know, these big sort of festivals like Diwali. Diwali is all about, you know, going out and gift giving and wearing fabulous clothes and you know, the celebration of wealth to set yourself up for prosperity in the year ahead. And so because of all of that, fashion is really part of the way that they celebrate. And the local fashion ecosystem is really strong. There's really famous designers within India, there's major fashion groups within India. They produce at such a high quality and such a high level. An amazing NGO or school like Chanakya, they're the ones that did all the couture embroidery for Dior when Dior did the big show at the Gateway of India. We're actually going to be working with them on a really fantastic project. But the level of craftsmanship is couture level. There are many, many brands that work with companies in India to help them produce some of those techniques for their clothes. So fashion and luxury and sort of unique hand done things are something that's really integral to Indian culture.

A (36:26)

And why do you think it has been harder for the Western brands work with Indian craftsmen a lot like, and we're very reliant on them. And there are, you know, these giant businesses that have been built out of beading, beadwork and things like that. And a lot of those companies also have their own brands. Why do you think there is only a Galleria Lafayette opening now? Why didn't this happen 15 years ago or 25 years ago? Like, is it a political thing? Is it the way that the country just operates? Why do you think it's all happening at this moment?

D (37:12)

I mean, I think there's some macroeconomic things to consider. I mean, we spoke about China, but most luxury brands that we're very familiar with are not back on track in China the way they were a few years ago. Likewise, I think you look at the European market, the American market, there's a lot of question marks about whether or not to invest in some of these places that historically had delivered major growth. I think India naturally is where smart people are looking at because of the way that the population is growing and also because of the way that the really top percentage of Indian people interact with luxury brands. I mean, they are big, big spenders in places like Dubai, in places like London. A lot of Indian VIC's have second homes in both those places. And so the wealth of the diaspora has very much made the spending power of the Indian luxury consumer front and center in the minds of Western fashion brands.

A (38:09)

That makes sense. And when did you realize it was a good opportunity for you? Was it just spending so much time there? Did you and your husband kind of say, oh, maybe we should do more here, work wise? When did you feel like it made sense for you to build something out there?

D (38:31)

There are a few people who've sort of been whispering in my ear about India and, and a few people who are sort of like, but you know, it almost better than than anybody who's not from there. Like, you need to really get serious about it. So once I, I had enough people kind of, you know, and that's a mix of clients, that's a mix of sort of friends who work in the fashion space, like producers or casting directors, whatever, you know, then I started to hear the rumblings of the Galeries Lafayette coming in. Then I started to, to kind of hear from, from friends on the ground that, you know, some of these brands are really pushing onto. Some of the Indian brands, I mean, are pushing onto the Paris schedule. I mean, for example, actually, my husband helped Gaurav Gupta get onto the Paris couture schedule. That was sort of a project that. So we had already sort of lightly been engaged with it. And then just as these major investments started to become more clear, we tried to ramp up pretty quickly so that we could kind of grow at the same time. As all this attention was going to be focused on the market, what are.

A (39:29)

The barriers to entry there? Like, obviously people are doing it, but what are the things that are still going to be a challenge even as it does develop?

D (39:43)

Well, I immediately think of our friend in the White House who has slapped a significant tariff on India that I think is going to be, who knows? Everybody's, of course, hoping that that gets negotiated and dealt with, but absolutely there's going to be uncertainties around the US and India trade relationship. So that is a barrier both ways. The flip side of that is the UK just signed a fantastic free trade agreement with India, which is only going to benefit British designers and British fashion and Indian brands looking to enter into the London market. In fact, we did an event with Lara Weir, the CEO of the British Fashion Council in London, to access the Indians who have second homes in London and come here during the summer. And so it's very much front of mind for her. It's, of course, front of mind for the British government. In fact, you know, Keir Starmer is in India as we speak right now with the delegation sort of amping up trade and really championing the agreement. So, you know, that's a good thing. But of course, tariffs are a big question mark. There's also the market complexity. You know, I spoke about sort of the different regions within India. I mean, there's a lot of local nuance. It's not just the US where it's Chicago versus Miami versus Dallas versus and then New York and la. There's different languages, there's different religions, there's totally different populations and the way that they wear clothing and the clothing that they wear. So it's quite a diverse market. And so I think you have to really have local experts who know how to navigate that. I think there's also some education gaps on both sides. I think international brands going into the market probably are not aware of how robust a fashion ecosystem already exists and how interwoven fashion is to the normal Indian. And so I think when you go in, you really have to have a proposition of why is this exciting for them to spend money on that. Likewise, Indian brands may, as we said earlier over assume that when they come to Western markets, people know who they are. And so I think it's really just about the education kind of both ways.

A (41:44)

Yeah, that makes sense. I think one thing that Westerners don't really fathom is the reach of Bollywood stars and the impact. So can we talk a bit about. I did a piece years ago about Louis Vuitton celebrity strategy. And there was a famous Bollywood actress, probably the most famous, who wore Louis Vuitton decanne. I want to say it's probably three or four years ago, and it was, like, crazy. It was the biggest impact, media impact they ever had. But, like, how much of this has to do with the Bollywood export system and how could brands use that more efficiently and engage with that system more?

D (42:34)

We literally just did a project with John Vi Kapoor, who's a huge Bollywood star who came in exclusively for Miu Miu at Paris Fashion Week. This is today's Thursday. This happened on Monday. And the reach was astronomical. She's got 26 and a half million followers on Instagram. And, you know, she's in a fabulous movie. It debuted at Cannes. Scorsese introduced it. It's being tipped for Oscar. It's India's Oscar entry in terms of the international film category. Anyway, all that is to say fashion is very much paying attention to Bollywood. There's major. Every major fashion house now has an ambassador in India, whether it's Alia Bhatt for Gucci or Ananya Pandey for Chanel, et cetera. So there's really major, major opportunities there. Bollywood, not for nothing, and this is something that some listeners may not know, is it's so huge in terms of the geographic diversity of who follows it. It's not just India. It is Africa. It's the Middle east, it's Southeast Asia. So all of these markets that fashion brands are really paying attention to in opening up new stores and sort of the luxury opportunities, these are all markets that are big, big Bollywood fan bases. So, you know, you're not just speaking to India, which is more than a billion people in and of itself. You're speaking to even a more vast network of fans and possible brand devotees.

A (44:00)

And do you see, like, obviously they're opening their stores, opening there. Do you see more brands engaging with Indian culture in the right way? Like, I think the Dior example, Dior under Maria Grazia was really, really good at. They would do these resort shows, these destination shows, and working with local people in a really, I hate this word, but authentic way that everyone liked, like, everybody appreciated. Nobody was like, whoa, she's just a hack. They were like, oh, she's actually making an effort to engage with these people. Do you see brands doing that in India more effectively than they have in the past? Or. Or. And where. Where is there room for improvement?

D (44:55)

Well, I think she's a really good example. And Chanakya, you know, the school that. That she supported, you know, not for nothing, as we said, they do incredible work. It's also a really wonderful women's charity that really supports people who are able to create craft and kind of make careers out of it. If I'm honest, I'm not seeing that happen in any massive way from other brands at the moment. There are other brands that work with some of these great Indian manufacturers and artisans, and it would be really smart of them actually to come over and champion the people that they're working with, not least because it would certainly build presence in a market that they may be entering. So I really do hope that people look at that example as an opportunity not just to kind of do right by the people that are making your clothes, but frankly, it's a business opportunity which, let's be real in this world, is sort of what gets people's attention more. So you can be selfish about this and greedy about this and still do the right thing in terms of really supporting the people that are producing over there. There's a huge opportunity for us.

A (45:58)

So you have a really good sense of the global fashion industry because you work in the us you work a lot in Italy and Paris and Europe, and you also work in the UK and then you're working in India. So you have a good idea of what the sort of challenges are in each of those markets, the what the consumer is thinking in those markets. How would you categorize the Indian consumer and their behavior right now compared to the Western consumer? You know, the American consumer is very different from the European even. And then obviously, like the Chinese consumer is a totally different thing. The Korean consumer's different. But, like, how is the Indian consumer consuming right now, given all the macro issues that we hear about that, that are affecting everyone globally?

D (46:54)

I mean, I preface this by saying that obviously this is my. My observation since I'm not actually from there, but it's kind of. There's two kind of parts of it. There's, of course, the really top percent of Indian luxury consumers who by and large have second homes outside of India, are the really top spenders, therefore have very sophisticated tastes in terms of the brands that they want, the brands that they interact with and are not necessarily going to be the ones that are going to buy flashy handbags because they need to promote the fact that they have this wealth. They shop like that top percentage does anywhere, which is more and more discreet and is buying things that they perceive as great quality and brands that they really feel represent them as we know. But I think that growing middle class, which is one of the things that seem to be missing from a lot of the Western luxury brands right now. That class that's buying that aspirational handbag, that class that's buying sort of the standout product that's going to make them feel as if they belong and are not buying everything from a luxury brand. That class is growing really quickly in India and I think that's an opportunity there. And so brands that are smart are going to have that offering of okay, I've got a Vuitton or whatever bag that people are obviously going to identify. But equally I'm also offering something that is quite at an international level. So I think the consumer behavior is in that sense still on a learning.

B (48:30)

Curve.

D (48:33)

In terms of the broader Indian fashion consumer. But there's certainly a big number of luxury shoppers that really know their way around every single brand. And you see that also just during Paris Fashion Week. I mean, the amount of Indian press that was starting to attend the Vic's that were in the front row for so many of the shows, you know there's a lot of power there.

E (48:56)

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A (49:57)

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D (51:33)

I will say this. The conversations that I have in India are overwhelmingly positive, excited and optimistic. And I don't mean to draw sort of a depressing contrast with the conversations I have in London and New York, but I have people with big marketing budgets turning to me in India and saying I need to double my spend on a marketing level from now until next year. Help me ideate that. And so that's where it is now. I would hope that that trajectory continues over the next five years. There are more, more international players coming into the market, that's for sure. There are international brands that exist in the market that I know for a fact are opening a number of new stores over the next year, two years. So I think in terms of the way that the investment is flowing, the only way is up as of now. Of course, in terms of the macroeconomics of the world, like, nobody knows what's going to happen and it's a roller coaster every day. But I will say the trajectory of travel in India is certainly trending more positively than many of the other conversations I'm having globally.

A (52:49)

Final question for you. What are some. If someone is a watcher of the global luxury, what are some homegrown Indian brands that they should be watching super closely?

D (53:02)

Well, there's so many. So I think, you know, a lot of people might have heard of Sabyasachi because he had a huge show in India. There was a collaboration with H and M, Scottish tour in New York as well as you know, all over India. He's one that maybe has, has broken through in some people's minds. Of course there is Abu and Sandeep. That's Abujani and Sandip Khosla. They also create incredibly intricate and sort of couture level clothes. You know, there's Annamika Kanna, there's Gaurav Gupta Chanakya. As we discussed, the Embroidery House. You know, they create such beautiful stuff as the ecosystem is vast and complex and they're at all different levels. Anita Dongre is another wonderful Indian designer. A little bit more, you know, at an accessible luxury price point. And there's a store in New York and she, you know, has really, really beautiful clothes that, that are a little bit less intricate, less like, you know, couture. Although of course she offers that too, but just a kind of a nicer mix. I mean, I really, I could go on and on and I, and I have, you know, the, the joy of actually being able to buy stuff when I, when I go to Diwali parties or I go to India for. And so shopping in India is one of life's great joys, I have to say. Also, I've become a total jewelry addict because of this country. I mean, I have a mother in law who takes stones and one by one puts them under her pillow. And if she has good dreams, she keeps it. If not, she sends it back. And so the approach to how you buy jewelry and hold on to jewelry and attach so much emotional investment to it, I'm fascinated by and you know, that's so, that's super fun. So there's a real emotional attachment to shopping, to jewelry, to clothing in India that I think is really unique and is quite contagious. If you are a fashion lover and anybody who is going there, I recommend, you know, getting a really good list together and putting some time into shopping only.

A (55:06)

Adam, this was so fun to talk about this market and see some like new, something new and exciting happening in the industry where you could see development and not just a dead end end. Any words of wisdom on the future of PR and your business generally as we go as we embark on another holiday season?

D (55:28)

I mean, of course you should be spending a ton of money on pr. It's the only way to grow your brand. We all know that.

A (55:33)

Truly.

D (55:35)

I think, look, you just have to be smart about how you're spending money. And for everybody, it's not necessarily going to be transactional. It's not necessarily going to be only brand building. It's like, what are your objectives, hit them. And, and I think in general, you know, really care about your customer. Don't do things just because, you know you're in a vacuum and you think this feels right for the brand. I think you need to be really focused on who this is going to reach, who's going to buy this product, and how you're going to talk to them via media talent. Kols, whatever it is, just make sure that the end person you're trying to reach is the customer.

A (56:12)

You know, who I Speaking of Kols, you know who I saw in Paris with was Leaf Greener, the OG kol.

D (56:19)

Oh, wow. Great to see her back in action.

A (56:22)

She hadn't been in Paris in five years. She's mostly does consulting now, but I was like, you're the OG Kol. I didn't know what a KOL is before I met her. I'm obsessed with her. I love her so much.

D (56:33)

That's so funny. Yeah, I didn't know what a KoL is too, and then an influencer told me that they're a Kol now. So they're a Kol.

A (56:39)

Key opinion leader.

D (56:41)

No, exactly.

A (56:42)

It's a great name.

D (56:43)

It's a great one. There'll be something new tomorrow, I'm sure.

A (56:46)

For sure. Adam, this was such a pleasure. You're the best and I appreciate you. And good luck with all of this. By the time this airs, many of your projects will be off the ground. So I'm excited for you.

D (56:56)

Totally. Thanks, Lauren. I really appreciate it. And I'm so happy to be on this podcast that I listen to all the time.

A (57:03)

Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced, produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck Co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of Editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.

F (57:29)

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