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Fat Mascara
British Hair Legend Sam McKnight Stands Up for Beauty Teams: “We need a new deal.”
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this episode of Fat Mascara is presented by Milani Cosmetics, a brand who believes that what's inside matters. Hey everyone, we have a big one today. We've got Sam McKnight. Wow. Sam McKnight. If you don't know who he is, he's an MBE. Yes, that's right. An MBE that is like a major, major station in the world of Great Britain. It's an order of the British Empire. They don't give that to just anyone. But he was also the hairstylist for over 200 British Vogue covers, did Princess Diana's hair, Lady Gaga's hair, Kate Moss's hair, has his own hair care line. Sam McKnight is brilliant, but. But he also just recently wrote an op ed for the business of fashion that caught my eye and many people in the beauty community's eye. It's called hair and makeup artists deserve a new deal. And he was very clear to let me know that hair and makeup artists deserve a new deal. Also encompasses everyone who works in the hair and beauty world. So yes, that includes nail artists and everyone else who works on set your brow Tax everyone. So what does this new deal mean here? He explains. But basically they're not getting paid properly, they're not getting credited properly. And if you're a creative listening to this, you don't need to be a hair person or a makeup person or a nail person. If you are creative. Listen to this episode. It really is inspiring and helps remind you know your worth. I love this episode, Sam. I love this interview, Sam. And I really hope that everyone here enjoys it because I found it super inspiring. Hi, Sam.
- [02:49]
A
Hi.
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B
It's good to see you in your studio. All right, so I was Dying to talk to you after I read the piece that you wrote for Business of Fashion. Business of Beauty. You wrote hair and makeup artists deserve a new deal. And it was honestly one of the most interesting pieces I've read in a while. Certainly one of the most topical. I'm going to summarize it. Basically hair and makeup artists and I'm going to include nail techs in there.
- [03:16]
A
Well, I actually wrote the beauty teams But I think BoF edited it into a headline which said hair and makeup. But actually I was including the beauty teams and lots of the creators backstage. But it is essentially the beauty team.
- [03:31]
B
You wrote that beauty teams need a new deal. And what does a new deal mean? It means that for years essentially a credit was seen as a form of payment and it really made the work worth doing. But now it was kind of informal. Right? This was an informal deal. And now. And a lot of this was for magazines. Now magazines are rapidly folding and social media is really the key medium and we rarely see those images get credited. What was the impetus for writing this piece? Because it got a big reaction.
- [04:09]
A
It did. I mean I've written similar things before over the last few years. That particular piece came from a post I posted and the first time I posted it was six years ago. Cause I looked it up and I reposted my post and I kind of have to do this every year. I repost the post. You're at a really important post Reminder. Yeah, well I get a reminder for. I mean I think that was a Sunday morning and there were three well known publications had omitted credits for the beauty teams on posts they had done. A fun one magazine called the Face who announced that they were folding, thanked everyone across the board and tagged not by name, said the staff, da da da da da da. And right down to the couriers and never mentioned the beauty teams because you can be sure the couriers get paid, but the beauty teams don't get paid. So that just pissed me off. And I thought am I gonna have to repost this old thing that I keep doing every year? Because I speak up if I see something not corrected. I will say, oh, you forgot to in a nice way. You know.
- [05:19]
B
Why do you think the face in that example, why do you think the face didn't credit?
- [05:24]
A
I don't. Well, because I think it's another theory I have. There's been a general devaluation of what the beauty teams bring to the table over the last five to 10 years. I would say since the beginning of social media. It's almost who. You know. Although it's a weird. It's a weird dichotomy. It's a weird thing because everyone knows the amount of work that goes into that. And it's so weird why they just wouldn't. Why they would omit a credit. Now what the excuses I get are, oh, we. We have an intern doing the credits. You have all the call sheets.
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B
That's like the dog eat.
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A
Yeah, a little bit. Little bit. It doesn't sit well with me.
- [06:08]
B
Also, I feel like beauty has never been bigger. And I come from magazines where it was beauty. Yes, it's not as fabulous as fashion. It's not as grand as fashion, but it was always beauty.
- [06:21]
A
Change the lights. I would beg to disagree. There it is, as fabulous as fashion.
- [06:27]
B
Well, I mean, I've devoted my whole life to beauty, but some people may say that it's not as fabulous as fashion, but it's always beauty keeps the lights on. Beauty has the biggest advertising budget. So to me, I would think that beauty would be top of mind.
- [06:41]
A
But I think they kind of speak to each other, those things in a way. If you're not demanding respect in that you go and work for free, you're not going to get the same respect as you do if you get paid. I definitely have seen a devaluing of what the beauty teams bring to. It's almost like that if you kind of. Oh, how can I say this without being petty, without sounding petty. It's almost like if you kind of push them down, they won't ask for so much money. They won't ask for so much. I don't know. Am I making sense here? It almost started when they started calling us glam. Suddenly we went from being hair and makeup and nails to glam.
- [07:24]
B
I never liked that.
- [07:25]
A
I hate it. Awful. I think it's devaluing. It's demeaning and devaluing. I know a lot of people would disag. Because you are. You're not always bringing glam, you know? I don't know, it just. It seemed a little demeaning to me, and it's kind of stuck. And I almost think that's almost a way of. Kind of dismissing what we do in a way as frivolous and perhaps irrelevant.
- [07:49]
B
A little reductive.
- [07:50]
A
It's a little reductive. That's the word. Yeah, I understand.
- [07:53]
B
I understand. Well, I'm gonna ask you what the response was from your eyes. I mean, I looked at the Post and I saw real heavyweights. Karen Elson, Deborah Lipman, Val Garland, Nick Barros, Ted Gibson, Lisa Butler, Mary Greenwell. It was a real wave of applause. And then, of course, there were artists who were not quite as well known, who were really thanking you for sticking up and sticking your neck out for saying something in such an esteemed publication. What did you hear that we didn't see?
- [08:24]
A
Listen, I get so much fantastic response from hair and makeup people I meet at a party or in the street who say, thank you so much for speaking up for us. Listen, I'm old, I've been around a long time. I have a voice and I'm not afraid to use it. I kind of made that decision a few years ago. I'm just going to speak up about this because the young ones, they can't speak up because there's a fear of being blacklisted. And when we started in this business, when this whole thing kind of started, it was really tiny, small, little business, and it's not like that anymore. The business is huge. There are thousands and thousands of people probably clamoring after a lot of the same jobs and there isn't a voice. I don't know about the us, but in UK there are no rules. There's no kind of guidelines of to how people are treated or. So there's no one really to fight that corner. And agents are not going to fight that corner because agents want to keep the clients. Agents have a role to play. And listen, I'm not. I'm not dissing agents, but they have to keep everyone happy. And when I first started posting that, when I first started seeing people not being credited and I knew they hadn't been paid, it just made my blood boil. I think this is. This is.
- [09:41]
B
There's no union.
- [09:42]
A
There's no union. Well, there is. This is my. This is where I was going with this. There is a union here called Back to, who represent the film industry and they've just started to take on the fashion industry. And I think it's fantastic. It's really wonderful because they really are there to back you up, make sure everything has been done properly, from rates, from conditions to health and safety, which is really important because I don't think once I've ever been given directions to a fire exit or a backstage at a show, and I think when shows are sort of crazy like they are now, I think then we need some rules. We really need some rules. But it's been a struggle to get artists to join Bechtu, and I was kind of horrified. Last year, I was on a press junket with an actress and there were sort of lots of hair and makeup people there doing different actors. And one of the girls came out and thanked me and said, but it was really sad that her agency had forbidden her to join a union. And I was horrified because a, that's illegal. And you think why would the agent not want to protect their artist? So it's a tricky situation because the artist obviously doesn't want to upset their agent, but their artist has absolutely zero protection in any way. I think where we need to go with this is there have to be really, really strong, strict, not just guidelines, there have to be some kind of rules and regulations where if you get a job, it's a contractual obligation, written contractual, legal obligation that if you don't get paid for that job, you must get a credit. And if they don't do the credit, then you get paid a day rate, you get the compensation. It can't be just one sided. And we're not talking, if you're talking editorial for a magazine, but that kind of almost is an old fashioned word because editorials, a lot of them are advertorials disguised as editorial. And I've been on a few where it's been paid for by a massive company, but the magazine's keeping your the money, or the publication, let's call them, is keeping all the money, not passing it down to the artists. And some of those big publications have stopped paying for, but even paid for transport to the shoot. Listen, I agree to, I agree to do your editorial for your magazine or your cover, that's fine, but I am not funding your shoot. I am not paying for transport with six suitcases of wigs and whatever because we don't know what we're doing. I mean that's just crazy. That's absolutely nuts.
- [12:19]
B
Do you think that the younger generation, who I found a lot of just in my experience a lot of the younger generation is not as afraid to speak up about things that seem a little crazy.
- [12:30]
A
A lot of the thoughts I came away with after I read comments, and I read a lot of the comments, probably most of the comments on the post and they were all positive, but I saw a lot of people saying, oh yes, and what about this? And what about this? And what about this? And because there's a lot of nail people saying, oh yeah, nails. And I said, guys, I'm saying it now, that's all great, that's all fine. I love that you're angry and I love that you're really saying this, but you have to speak up. It cannot just be Me, everyone has to speak up. But then that brings you right round in the circle back to there is no union, there is no group that is going to advocate for your well being, your health, your rates or anything.
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B
How old were you when you started speaking up? Cause obviously you reached a certain level of success when you felt comfortable.
- [13:18]
A
I mean, really, I didn't start speaking up until, I mean I've always kind of said my mind. But on social media I didn't put do that post until well, six years ago. Like 2020 it was. Yeah.
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B
Well, I'm hopeful that it will inspire others too, hopefully.
- [13:34]
A
Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying that we need to all go out and march in the streets and da da da. But I just think things have to change because it's unfairly weight. Because also the fashion business now is a multibillion, gazillion pound dollar, whatever you call it industry globally employing thousands and thousands. And it seems to me, like many other things in the world, there's a lot of money at the top, but it's not filtering down.
- [14:00]
B
Yeah. Where do you think that money is going?
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A
I would love to know. I would love to know why they can't afford to pay for transport to their shoots for the beauty teams. And I always say in my post, it's the beauty teams who are enabling you to publish. So just pay for their expenses, give them a nice hotel and a nice lunch. And we're now being asked now to pay for our own airfares to places. I mean, it's just absurd.
- [14:26]
B
So there's no arguing that social is where a lot of the work is going and a lot of the work is living. What sort of value is there in social credits?
- [14:35]
A
Oh, that's all there is these days. Honestly, people are not going to read a tiny little byline at the bottom of a page or in the crease of a page on a magazine. It's almost worthless anymore.
- [14:48]
B
Any value in media credits they can print.
- [14:51]
A
I guess if you're building a portfolio, you're building your client base and that kind of thing. But I think less and less and less. But the reason you do it is to use it online, you know, so it looks great on your social feed. But if the publication who didn't credit you or the celebrity who didn't pay you and didn't credit, because I see a lot of that which was really interest about the celebrities not paying and not crediting, that was a new one for me.
- [15:18]
B
So give me an example of that.
- [15:20]
A
I can't give you an example. It's just from people saying to me, oh, yeah, I've had celebrities not naming anyone do the same to me, which I hadn't really realized.
- [15:33]
B
Are those always informal agreements, like, yeah, I'll do your hair for blah blah, gala blah blah?
- [15:37]
A
Well, everyone has agents and I think it's more commonplace than we like to think. And I think it all goes through agencies. I think it's exploitative and it's all. It's verging on abuse Sometimes this is just not fair.
- [15:50]
B
Do people end up talking to their other.
- [15:52]
A
Oh, God. I mean, you try and stop hair and make up people from talking to each other. Right. It's the nature of the beast. Right. It's where it all happens. In the dressing room.
- [16:02]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's a very small community, but I
- [16:05]
A
think it's hard for people to talk publicly on social media for fear of being blacklisted. And I get that. I completely get that. Me, I don't care. It's fine. And I don't want to spin a hugely negative thing on it because it is a fantastic job. It's an amazing thing to do. But we must not be taken for granted, especially the next generation, because we are going to need people to come into this business. And if we go on like this, no one's going to want to come into this business. But then we have the AI Spectre, which is going to change everything again.
- [16:41]
B
This episode is brought to you by Milani Fat Mascara created a totally new conversation in beauty, one that goes beyond the surface to get to know our guests on a deeper level. That's why, for our 10th anniversary, I'm so proud to partner with Milani, a brand who believes that what's inside matters. Case in point, Milani just reformulated their iconic bake collection to make it even more luxurious for their customers. Try it and you will feel the upgrade I did. The texture is so smooth, the powder is so fine, you can sweep on layers and layers. For weightless, luminous color, they've upgraded their best selling bake blush formula, added four new shades and launched new bronzer and highlighter formulas. Four new shades each. Always inclusive, Milani has a wide range of shades for every skin tone and undertone. I'm wearing the new cool toned pink panna cotta blush, perfect for spring. The quality is exceptional. No surprise, as the collection is crafted in Italy. Slow baked on terracotta tiles, the new formula lasts for up to 12 hours, feels great on the skin and is now infused with skin nourishing grape leaf extract and Olive fruit oil. Try the collection for yourself. Get 25% off of your purchase at Milanicosmetics.com using the code FATMASCARA25. Well, you know, I wasn't going to ask you about AI because I feel like everything is AI, AI, AI. And it's like a little bit like I just am getting a little tired of the AI questions. But what is your. What keeps you up with AI? What is your concern with AI?
- [18:05]
A
My sort of go to fear for that is that it is. It's not even a fear it's going to happen. It's going to kill a lot of the. There was someone online a few weeks ago who I had a little bit of to do with saying, oh, but we must embrace it because you're going to be left behind if you don't embrace it. Because what we do is art and we need to embrace art. And I like, yeah, what we do is commercial art. Yes. And someone's making money from it and if it's not you, then we're fools to do it. Who wants to be a starving artist these days? Yes, it is commercial art, but you're always working for someone else. When I did my book 10 years ago, some of the photographer's agents wanted to charge me $1,000 an image for my own work that I had already asked the photographers personally if I could use it in my book. They're going to charge me and I'm like, hang that shoot cost me $2,000 in weeks. So how about I send you the bill for that and you can go and see your work in Photo London that you've done for a magazine that the photographer is selling for 20, 30, 40,000 pounds for an image, but you didn't get paid for it. Now there's something wrong in this picture. We are commercial artists employed by people. And I just think it's really important that we really put value on that, that the whole business puts value on what we bring to. Because AI is going to probably annihilate all that for hair and makeup people and for models too. Probably all those lookbooks, traditional catalog style things that were traditionally done by a team of people jetting off to Miami. It already is. But I think hopefully what will bring the value up to where it should be is real life. Because I think events, shows, I think I'm hoping that they will have much more value. If the stills world is going to be a world of AI, real life will become. Will have more value to it. The real life hair and makeup will have More value to it? I don't know, who knows? I think we're all in a bit of a transition here, but I think we need people to value us and we need to value ourselves.
- [20:22]
B
Speaking of valuing ourselves, are there cases? I feel like there's probably a lot of creative people listening, whether they're hair, makeup or in some other field, thinking, well, I just did that job for free or I did that for the exposure. And I did that without thinking about it. I thought it was a good deal. Are there any moments where it actually is a good idea to do something for their exposure?
- [20:45]
A
You know, if you work in a photographer or working with a team of people who you do something for gratis, for exposure, whatever, so long as you are able to monetize that exposure or that same client is going to book you the next week for a money job, then it's fine. But when it's just one sided and all you get, all you're doing is things for exposure that that's exploitation. But I think that's back to the valuing ourselves, isn't it? I think we need, I think if agents need to value that too, I think it's not going to just come from ourselves. Does that make sense? I mean, I say ourselves. I'm talking about everyone, really.
- [21:22]
B
What does a good agent look like?
- [21:23]
A
A good agent looks like someone who's really looking after their artists, really on the side of the artists. And I think sometimes the agent can be more on the side of the client. And I completely get that because they're the ones with the money. But I think there has to be a great balance of client and artist attention, if you like. Is that the right word? Is it?
- [21:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was gonna ask you what a bad agent looks like.
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A
Well, I think there's a lot of agents out there who have put more emphasis on the client than the artists because they have so many artists that one of them will do it. There's also a glut of probably hair and makeup. There's probably thousands of people after the same job now that weren't there before.
- [22:11]
B
Yeah. Do you do a lot of mentoring?
- [22:13]
A
Mentoring? Well, you know what, when we were doing 1620 shows a season, there were a lot of people came through our teams over the years. And do you know what's really amazing is that so many of those people who are in our teams are hugely successful now. And it's so nice to see that. And I had a 70th birthday last year and so many of them came to My birthday party. It was really touching. It was great.
- [22:43]
B
So you have worked with such a broad spectrum. We haven't talked that much about your actual work. You've had exhibition, an exhibition on your work at Somerset House. You've written a book, you have your own line, which is incredible, but your collaborators are incredible, which speaks to your work. Can you tell us about what it's like, what it was like working with some of the following people? All right. Kate Moss.
- [23:09]
A
Oh, well, Kate I've known since she was a teenager. And I mean, we just did an amazing editorial for Edwards magazine just now,
- [23:17]
B
like, just recently with Nick.
- [23:18]
A
Yeah. Where we kind of turned her into a modern day Marilyn. And we got to kind of really, kind of go there and do exactly what we wanted to do and just make, in the old sense of the word, editorial. We transformed Kate and had fun for a day and no one got paid, but we got to do exactly what we wanted to do. It was a huge collaboration with a team of people who've known each other for years. And Nick made some great images and a great film he did with AI afterwards. So it was an experience in the traditional way of doing great editoriality, great, great images that you're proud of, that you kind of stick up on Instagram and it makes everyone look good. And it was really good fun.
- [24:04]
B
What does a collaboration look like to you if you're working with, like, all of the greats? Like, do you come in and just have some rough sketches of ideas or some pictures or just wor. What do you come to the table with if you have a major day on set like that?
- [24:16]
A
I think if it's something specific, you have to have some kind of reference to work from. But the shoot with Edward was. Edward wasn't sure which direction to go in. And I said, listen, we did a wig for Kate a few weeks ago. Get her to send you the film we did of her in her dressing room. And she looked great. And he was, oh, my God. It was amazing. Just like that. It was great. It was fine.
- [24:40]
B
And this is Edward Annenfels new magazine.
- [24:42]
A
Yeah. And the thing is, I don't work well with loads of references. I go to a shoot and I see a board of references and I'm allergic. I break out into hives. I'm like, well, it can be either there or it can be that. We kind of have to make up our mind because I'm from a time when we didn't have any references. Someone would go, oh, it may be a little bit twenties and that was it, but in a modern way. So I'm not great with tons of references, but I think a great collaboration is people who get along really well and who respect each other and allow each other their space and encourage each other. Val Garland and I, when we work together, sometimes. Val. And say, you know what? I don't think this is a makeup day. It's a hair day. Or we'll do the other. I think I'm gonna pull her hair back and you do a mouth or whatever you want. So it's about working together. Yeah, that's good.
- [25:34]
B
All right.
- [25:35]
A
Karl Lagerfeld, which was a fantastic collaboration. I mean, Carl would sometimes draw a line drawing on the back of an envelope and just give me that and say that was kind of the kind of thing he was feeling for the next show. Or sometimes I'd get just a sentence that I couldn't read and I had to get a map.
- [25:54]
B
What's the most insane thing he's ever done? Like, is that something that stuck with you?
- [25:57]
A
Well, we did. I might have some copies of that wig behind that was. We recreated that for something. Can you see there? I can't take it off now.
- [26:09]
B
No, it's like. It's, like, very stripey.
- [26:12]
A
It was from the supermarket show. And we were in the atelier on Rue Cambon, ripping up Chanel couture tweeds and silks so that we could make the ponytails bigger. So they became a little bit sort of like dreadlocks made of hair fabric, nylon, silk, tweeds, sort of on the back of the girls. And that was quite incredible. Yeah.
- [26:38]
B
Was he really funny?
- [26:39]
A
Oh, he was so funny. He was so funny. I really miss him. I mean, it was kind of the end of an era, really, wasn't it? He was hysterical. Yeah, he was great. And you know what was great about him? He'd come in and everyone in the hair and makeup room would get a kiss. Hi. And you'd get a kiss on both cheeks. Goodbye. Everyone. The assistants. And in between, you'd do some great shots. You know, it was a pleasure. And he was really funny with some really filthy jokes.
- [27:09]
B
Dries Van Noten.
- [27:10]
A
Oh, Dries was incredible. It's funny you're asking about this. Cause that one there. Where is it? Can I see that one there? It was a veil of colored hair we did for a Dries shoot with Raphael Pavarotti, kind of. I think after lockdown, I spent, God, 14 years or something doing Dries shows. And we did something different every time. Dries always had a very particular idea. And we kind of have a. We'd have a day before the show figuring out just how far we would go with it or how not so far we would go with it. But Dries was more direct because he'd have a real strong idea of how hair makeup should be in the show.
- [27:56]
B
Well, that's what I love about a lot of your collaborators. It's not like Mamby Pamby. It's. You're working with very directional people. Okay, I'm going to get two more. Okay. All right. Lady Gaga.
- [28:08]
A
Lady Gaga. Well, I got to work with Lady Gaga kind of early on. In the beginning. I spent a year doing lots of bits and pieces with her. And I think for me, she was just electric. She just was. She changed everything for, I mean, any female pop star who came after her, the bar was high on the looks because she. Everyone thought she was crazy because she was changing fashion, changing her hair, changing the wigs. You know, six times a day she'd be photographed. And what people didn't realize that she could really sing, she could act, she was smart, she knew exactly what she was doing. And I love. I just. She was absolutely, absolutely incredible. I remember walking into her hotel room. We did her in the meet dress for some awards, I think, in la. And I walked into her room to do the. We're doing the wigs. And I could hear this voice, which I thought was the radio playing I Will Always Love youe. And I realized it was her singing a Cappello in the shower. But I go, oh, my God, this is better than Whitney Houston. And it was her in the shower. It was extraordinary. Cause, well, I'd only heard her singing pop songs. I'd never heard her true voice. And it was pretty incredible. Yeah, it's just amazing getting to work with people that are so talented. And also, she's a lovely lady, is completely, completely involved with the team, with what we're doing, and really enthusiastic.
- [29:42]
B
Incredible. Okay, we're going to do a fat mascara 5. Okay. Which is fast, fast, lightning round. What did you waste time on in your career that you wish you hadn't?
- [30:11]
A
Oh, God. Wondering if people liked me or not. Because it really doesn't matter.
- [30:16]
B
It doesn't matter. Who cares? It doesn't matter. All right. This is kind of broad. Best advice for young creatives, or why am I saying young? Who cares? Best advice for creatives, probably.
- [30:27]
A
It's not all about you. For me, it's all about the collaboration. I think if you walk in there when it's all about you, it's not gonna work.
- [30:35]
B
Mm. I'm sitting on that for a little bit. That's good. One person I did not ask you about during my little like. Tell me about this person. Tell me about that person. Is your biggest. My most famous client was Princess Tsai.
- [30:48]
A
Ah, she was, yeah.
- [30:50]
B
Yes. You did this incredible image of her. You've worked with her many times. But the most famous image is the Patrick DiMashier one where her hair is slicked back. Can you. This is not exactly a lightning round question, but just tell us about that image for a second.
- [31:05]
A
Oh, God, we did so many. The one with the hair slicked back, that was never published until after she'd passed away.
- [31:12]
B
Really?
- [31:12]
A
No, because we did her hair slick back quite a lot with Patrick. But she kind of felt that it was drawing too much attention to her to have such a huge change because she wasn't a fashion victim or really a fashionista. She was dead doing her job. And she knew that if there was so much attention on her hair, it would detract from the charity she was promoting or whatever. And some of those pictures with the slicked back hair are some of my favorite ones. Cause we've worked with Christy Turlington with Patrick during Couture Week, and she was in a pale blue studded Versace gown. And Christy Turlington said, my God, Princess Diana would look amazing. This. Why don't you give her this Polaroid? Which I did. And she said, oh, God, I'm not sure I would get away with this. So we introduced her to Anna Harvey, who was the fashion editor of British Vogue and also was Diana's clothing advisor. Introduced her to Donatella. So Donatella managed to. I don't know what they did. They sorted out getting a dress for her. And I think that was the first time she wore Versace, but she never wore it in public. And those pictures are some of my favorites. Yeah.
- [32:27]
B
What do you think people don't understand or get wrong about Princess Di?
- [32:32]
A
I don't know. I mean, I guess. I don't know. She sometime painted as a sort of crazy, whatever, I don't know. But she was far from it. She was smart. She was a 19 year old or 18 year old girl who was kind of led into a situation that did not turn out well, and a situation that she never. She didn't aspire to becoming the most famous woman in the world or wasn't equipped for it. And she found herself in this horrendous situation when she was a 20 year old bride and really turned it around magnificently. And she was really funny, she was really sweet, really kind, Very naughty sense of humor which really got her through. And in the most adverse circumstances, you and I couldn't possibly imagine having that fame thrust upon you for various reasons and especially unequipped to have to deal with that. So I think she coped magnificently. And really, we should all really be a little bit. Lady Di.
- [33:41]
B
Thank you. Cannot imagine. Okay, you've talked about what hasn't changed in fashion in so many years. What do you think has changed everything?
- [33:51]
A
Well, it's just. It's unrecognizable now. I mean, it's huge. I mean, it's this vast monster. It's a machine that is bigger than all of us that no one has ever kind of envisioned. Well, I guess the money guys did. Yeah. I just think the scale of it is unrecognizable, really. I miss those days backstage at shows when we had all the editors, we had everyone backstage, and that's all gone. I mean, backstage at shows now is a crazy mayhem. I mean, it always was a little bit, but it's now out of control. Cause they're shooting a campaign, they're shooting PR. There's a show. There's the BTs to get. There's the sponsors to cater to. So even on a cover shoot for a magazine, you're now shooting a cover, 10 pages, which would used to have been three days cover, 10 pages, BTS interviews. Da Da da da da. The amount of work crammed into the shortest amount of time. It can't be healthy. Please.
- [34:57]
B
It can't be. I think that pretty much sums it up. And then you have an incredible line. Line. It's going to be hard for you to pick just one, but which product are you always reaching for?
- [35:09]
A
Well, we have our amazing, really, really super light formulated Cool Girl texturizing mist, which is a fantastic volumizer and texturizer which we keep winning awards for. And it's 10 years old this year. We haven't changed it once, and we're not going to change it. And it's the one that's in my pocket at all times.
- [35:29]
B
Okay. The Cool Girl texturizing Mist. I think that's what I need today.
- [35:32]
A
It would look perfect on your hair.
- [35:33]
B
Okay. Yeah, I need. There's nothing in here, but I need a little stuff. As I'm talking to you, I'm like, I couldn't have done something with this hair. Couldn't have done something for Sam.
- [35:40]
A
You got those headphones on. I'm sure. It's great with those on. I don't have that problem.
- [35:46]
B
No, you look great. You've got great skin. I'm gonna shoving a bonus question. What are you doing on that skin? It's gorgeous. 70 years old.
- [35:53]
A
Luckily, I've got so many makeup friends that I have got. Got a cupboard full of every moisturizing.
- [36:00]
B
Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, just whatever you can slap on. Oh, well, you look great, Sam. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Your gift to the industry. Thank you. All right, we have a raise. A wand. Guys, send your razor wands, your favorite products, the products that are delighting you and making your days brighter. We have one from Anna. Okay, thanks, Anna. She sent her razor wand to Infoatmascara. It was very easy. Her razor wand right now is Calvin Klein hair and body Perfumist. She said she was picking up her migraine meds and she was feeling pretty poop. Ooh, sorry about that. She saw a range of these four on display. They were all charming. She bought the pair for her daughter and the coconut fur for herself. They retail, she said, for about $25. Calvin Klein hair. They also have cotton Musk. All right, 30. They're 38 bucks. Sorry, Anna. All right. That's quite a price difference between 25 and 38. But you know what? Still pretty affordable in this crazy economy. Oh, I love cotton musk. I love cotton musk. Anything. Silky, coconut, sheer peach. Hair and body. I'll tell you one thing. It's all about the hair and body mist. At Moda, we started carrying hair mist, and they sold out right away. So Calvin Klein hair and body perfume mist, under 40 bucks covers your whole body. So you can justify it like that, really into it. All right, I have one too. I have a product that I'm really loving. This is my raisin, Gold Fad and MD Lumishield. It's $48. It's a broad spectrum SPF 50. It has a calming complex. It's a mineral sunscreen. It has niacinamide, and everyone loves that ingredient. It's very calming. I use this. It's good for my skin tone. I'm pretty fair. So I cannot say that this works on every skin tone, but it gives a little bit of a sheen, and it kind of doubles as makeup on days that I don't need to look like that polished. I absolutely love it and does make my skin feel a little just kind of better, and I feel a little bit more pulled together. All right, that's it. Gold, fat and MD Lumishield. I actually really love the skincare brand. I have a few things from this. All right, what did you guys think of that episode? I absolutely love Sam McKnight. He is the voice of reason in the industry. I feel he loves the industry. I think that really came through. But he's like a checks and balances, which is what we so need in this world. And I think he has got some sound views on AI. He has some sound views on people getting paid he wants. I don't know. He's for progress, but he also is like, let's think about things. He's just a smart man and can you tell? I wish that he was on some kind of beauty board. Anyway, love him. Thank you, Sam. You can find all these products on our Shop my shelf@shopmy.com and I'll see you next week. Thank you for listening to Fat Mascara. If you like the show, consider giving us a rating and review on itunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. This helps other people find the show. Follow us on Social atmascara and email me at infoatmascara. I would love to hear from you. And to shop the products heard on the episode, check out Fat Mascara on Shop My Shelf. This show is produced by Red Rock Music. I'll see you next time.
- [39:45]
A
For 45 years, Dish has been connecting America with the best in family, TV, entertainment and advanced technology at an unbreakable, unbeatable value. And that commitment continues with our new 45th anniversary special offer. Get the lowest price in satellite TV starting as low as $89.99 a month. In a world of rising costs and hidden fees, DISH stays transparent, reliable and honest, just like our founders intended. Learn more by calling 888-add-H dish or visit dish.com terms and conditions apply. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we we recommend.
- [40:24]
B
Do you want to know the best part about being married to a woman? That there's no man involved. I mean, true, but I was going to say that it's a sleepover every single night with your best friend. Oh, yeah, that part's cute, too. I'm Taryn. She's Cami. We're married. And staying up is our weekly pillow talk out loud with you. We're giggling, we're gossiping, we're arguing. Classic marriage stuff. Just having fun being wives while we navigate growing up and building a family together. Then our sleepover grab gross. Our listeners call the PP hotline with their own gossip burning questions. Late night spirals all the stuff they'd only tell their best friends. So it's a private sleepover, but you are invited staying up with Taryn and Cami. New episodes weekly follow wherever you listen.
- [41:04]
A
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.