Candlemaker Louis Hotchkiss on The Secrets of His Craft

Summary

Summary of Fat Mascara Episode: Candlemaker Louis Hotchkiss on The Secrets of His Craft

In this enlightening episode of Fat Mascara, hosts Jennifer Sullivan and Jessica Matlin delve deep into the art and science of candle making with special guest Louis Hotchkiss, founder of Kobo Candles. Recorded in 2021 and updated post the sale of Kobo Candles to MERS Apothecary in 2022, this conversation uncovers the intricacies of crafting high-quality candles, the challenges faced in the industry, and offers listeners expert tips to enhance their candle-burning experience.

Lewis Hotchkiss' Journey into Candle Making

Louis Hotchkiss shares his unexpected path into the world of candle making. Initially involved in fragrance products, Louis's venture into candles began somewhat accidentally when he expanded his product line to include fragrances. Collaborating with a friend named Jose, who was manufacturing candles for Estee Lauder, Louis's interest in candles solidified after Jose had to pause production. Louis recounts:

"I could get into this candle making thing." ([02:42], Louis Hotchkiss)

This hands-on experience, combined with a passion for fragrances, led to the establishment of Kobo Candles. In 2022, Louis sold Kobo to MERS Apothecary, a Chicago-based family business, allowing Kobo to continue producing both their own brand of candles and custom orders under new management.

Understanding Candle Quality: Hot Throw vs. Cold Throw

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the concept of throw, which refers to the fragrance a candle emits. Louis explains the two types:

• Cold Throw: The scent of the candle when it's not lit.
• Hot Throw: The fragrance released when the candle is burning.

"There are two kinds of throw, cold throw and hot throw." ([08:21], Louis Hotchkiss)

Louis emphasizes that a high-quality candle should maintain consistency between its cold and hot throws. He shares an example where a major client’s candle lacked this consistency, leading to customer dissatisfaction:

"The hot throw and the cold throw were completely off." ([08:59], Louis Hotchkiss)

This highlights the importance of expert formulation to ensure fragrances perform well both lit and unlit.

The Importance of Wax Types: Why Soy?

The type of wax used in candle making is pivotal to both performance and environmental impact. Louis champions soy wax for several reasons:

"Soy is the best wax for a number of reasons... it burns cleaner... it doesn't produce soot." ([14:55], Louis Hotchkiss)

Key advantages of soy wax include:

• Renewable and Plant-Based: Unlike paraffin, soy wax is derived from soybeans, making it a sustainable choice.
• Cleaner Burn: Soy candles produce less soot and do not stain walls or ceilings.
• Healthier Environment: Soy wax disperses fewer particulates into the air compared to petroleum-based paraffin.

Louis contrasts soy with paraffin wax, noting the environmental and health benefits of choosing soy:

"Paraffin, which is the most commonly used wax in candles around the world, is really a byproduct of oil production... soy wax doesn't produce soot." ([14:55], Louis Hotchkiss)

Wicks: Choosing the Right One for Your Candle

Selecting the appropriate wick is crucial for optimal candle performance. Louis discusses the factors influencing wick choice:

"The best wick is the right wick for the vessel and the wax combination." ([16:59], Louis Hotchkiss)

Considerations include:

• Vessel Size and Shape: Different vessels require different wick sizes and types to ensure even burning.
• Wax Composition: The blend of soy wax and fragrance oils influences which wick will perform best.
• Preventing Tunneling: Using the correct wick prevents uneven burning, ensuring the candle lasts its full lifespan.

Dealing with Tunneling and Overburning

Louis provides practical advice on preventing and correcting tunneling, where a candle burns unevenly, leaving a tunnel of unused wax around the edges:

"If you start to get a tunnel, you have to do a couple of long burns... to melt the wax that's on top." ([18:38], Louis Hotchkiss)

He suggests:

• Initial Burn: Allow the candle to burn long enough initially to create a full melt pool.
• Extinguishing Tips: Use an extinguishing lid or the paperclip method to safely put out the candle without producing smoke or disrupting the wick.

Candles and Air Quality: Toxicity and Safety

Addressing concerns about toxicity, Louis reassures listeners about the safety of high-quality candles:

"There's nothing toxic if you use high-quality, regulated fragrances." ([26:21], Louis Hotchkiss)

Key points include:

• Quality Ingredients: Kobo Candles use fragrances that meet stringent Japanese, European, and California standards.
• Avoiding Harmful Oils: Certain essential oils, like cinnamon, can be harmful in candles and are replaced with safer alternatives.
• Pet Safety: Some fragrances can affect pets negatively; Louis advises stopping use if any adverse reactions occur.

Pricing of Candles: Why So Much Difference?

Louis delves into the factors that cause significant price variations in candles:

"Candles with big marketing budgets have to charge more." ([30:12], Louis Hotchkiss)

Reasons for price differences include:

• Marketing Costs: High-end brands invest heavily in advertising, inflating prices beyond production costs.
• Fragrance Quality: Premium fragrances, such as Vetiver and Saffron, are more expensive and contribute to higher candle prices.
• Packaging: Luxurious packaging, including ceramic containers or hand-blown glass, increases overall cost.

Favorites: Recommended Candle Brands and Scents

Louis shares his favorite candle brands and scents, highlighting Sir Trudon for their luxurious fragrances and craftsmanship:

"Sir Trudon candles... beautiful fragrances." ([34:04], Louis Hotchkiss)

From his own line, he recommends:

• Vetiver and Shaved Vanilla: A sophisticated blend with sharp and rounded notes.
• Pamplemousse (Grapefruit): A citrusy scent ideal for freshening up spaces.

Lightning Round

The episode concludes with a fun lightning round where Louis shares personal insights:

1. First Grooming Product Loved:

   "A shaving cream that turned into foam." ([36:54], Louis Hotchkiss)

2. Quality Admired Most in Others:

   "Humility." ([37:25], Louis Hotchkiss)

3. One Rule He Wishes Everyone Would Follow:

   "Be nice." ([37:30], Louis Hotchkiss)

4. Most Played Song on His Playlist:

   "Water Got No Enemy by Fela Kuti." ([37:56], Louis Hotchkiss)

5. Narrator for His Life Movie:

   "Milton Nascimento." ([38:20], Louis Hotchkiss)

Conclusion: Key Takeaways

Louis Hotchkiss offers a comprehensive look into the candle-making industry, emphasizing the importance of quality materials, expert formulation, and sustainable practices. Listeners gain valuable insights into enhancing their candle experiences, understanding product quality, and navigating the market’s pricing landscape.

Notable Quotes

• "Soy is the best wax for a number of reasons... it burns cleaner... it doesn't produce soot." ([14:55], Louis Hotchkiss)
• "There are two kinds of throw, cold throw and hot throw." ([08:21], Louis Hotchkiss)
• "Be nice. You know, meet a person you don't know, be nice, love them." ([37:30], Louis Hotchkiss)

This episode serves as an essential guide for both candle enthusiasts and aspiring candle makers, blending professional expertise with practical advice to illuminate the nuanced craft of candle making.

Transcript

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[Jen Sullivan]

Hi, hello and Merry Christmas to all who celebrate. It's Jen Sullivan. This is Fat Mascara, a podcast about beauty culture. I cannot think of a better way to light up the holiday season than candles. What else? You know, our interest in candles here at Fat Mascara borders on obsession. I would say it's an obsession, but what can we say? Candles are fabulous. They're the best. They're a way to experience fragrance and all it has to offer, you know, even if you don't like actual perfume. So this interview with Louis Hotchkiss is probably gonna blow your mind a bit if you like candles. Lewis is an actual candle maker, not like in the pre industrial revolution sense, but he is the founder of Kobo Candles which started as a kitchen counter labor developed into a factory. They create and manufacture candles for some of the most major brands. So this interview originally it was recorded in 2021. Jess will be here in a second. She's with me as we interview Lewis. But a lot has changed since then. In 2022, Lewis sold his company Kobo to MERS Apothecary, which is a family owned business in the Chicago area. So they moved production from New York to the Chicago area and that's where they are now. But you can still find Kobo Candles. They make their own brand of candles as well as doing custom orders and private lab work. That's all still their website, kobocandles.com so if you're interested, I'll put that in the links for you. But now because it's the holiday season, it's Christmas week, let's just like light a candle and get cozy and talk to Lewis.

[Jess]

Lewis, I'm so happy you're here. This has been like the most hotly anticipated episode for a long time because we are very big candle aficionados and our listeners are as well. I have to ask you, how did you become the candle man?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, thank you for having me. First of all, I'm really excited about this also. I think it was until you guys contacted me that I didn't realize that I was an expert in anything. And then I had to think about it for a while. But I. I started making candles. And kind of by accident, we had started a product line and it started to do pretty well. We decided to add some candles to it, some fragrance items to it, and that started to do very well. And I asked a friend to make them for me. And the friend was. Met was at that time he was a key manufacturer of candles for Estee Lauder. And our line started to take off pretty well for him. One day he came to me and he said, hey, Louis, I've got some bad news. I have a project that's probably going to take me seven months to complete, so I won't be able to pour your candles anymore. And so I said, oh, wow, you know, what am I going to do here? And I asked him, what am I going to do? His name was Jose. He was originally from Italy. And he said, well, why don't you come down to my place every day for like the next month and we will make all these candles together and I'll teach you everything I know. So every day I would drive to his place and we'd make our candles and I'd make the SD Lauder candles. And it turned out to be a fantastic experience. I realized that at lunch every day, he'd say, okay, it's time to take a break. And we would go into his kitchen in the place, and we'd make pasta, have a glass of wine, finish it up with an espresso and a piece of chocolate. And I thought, wow, I could get into this candle making thing.

[Jen Sullivan]

I want to hang out with you, Jose, in the kitchen.

[Jess]

Career switch.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah. So that's how I kind of got into it. And then we started to. He taught me a certain technique, added some of our own personality to that, and it just kind of took off from there.

[Jess]

And you've never stopped making candles since?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

We have not stopped making candles since this year. We'll probably make candles. Pour a half a million candles.

[Jess]

Oh, my God. And this is both for your online Kobo and also for brands which we cannot name because they don't want people to know. Not that there's anything bad, but, you know, you are like, let's say I am. You know, insert famous brand here. They're not making their. Like, if I'm a big brand and I don't even want to, like, use one. Cause I don't want to mislead people, but they don't necessarily make their own candles. They go to an expert who makes the best candles in the world, you know, so they'll go to you and you'll make their candles.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

That is correct. That is correct.

[Jess]

Okay, got it.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Most of the main candle brands in the world don't actually make their own candles.

[Jess]

And what. That's. I have to say that is really confusing. And I realize you're not going to, like, name drop, but why won't some of these big candle brands make their own candles? That's super confusing to me. I get why, like, a fashion brand might not. Because it's like, why do they want to put, you know, millions of dollars into, like, making a candle that's going to sit at their, you know, cashier point and be like, oh, we also have this candle, you know. But why would a big fat candle brand not make their own candles?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Probably because they put most of their efforts into marketing. And manufacturing is a whole nother process which requires a lot of energy and a lot of attention. And a lot of the brands have developed through marketing campaigns. So they might manufacture other products. They. They probably do. They might have some body care that they. That they include in their line, and they don't necessarily have the expertise or the energy to create all of these different areas for themselves.

[Jess]

Got it, Got it.

[Jen Sullivan]

Is it safe to say making a candle is way more complicated than, like, mixing up a body lotion?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

There's definitely different elements because you've got heat involved. You've got all these different vessels and different times. So for example, for us, each different vessel requires a different wick. So you've probably had some candles that don't burn all the way to the. To the ends of the glass, for example.

[Jess]

Yeah. Oh, we're gonna get to some of those questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

The different size you've got, the different. You've got the height, the width, the materials, the fragrance, you have all those elements in lotions as well. And lotions can be complicated as well because you have preservative systems that you're putting into lotions also. So I wouldn't say that it's much more complicated, but it takes a lot more time to manufacture a candle.

[Jess]

Got it, got it. Okay, well, let's get straight to some of the hard, fast questions, because for this episode, we actually crowdsourced almost all of the questions, which is something that Jen and I don't normally do, but we knew that our listeners would be like, really don't get a chance to ask their specific questions to somebody with Such a specific area of expertise, like yourself. So this was really fun. I had such a great time going through the questions, and I was really amazed at how repetitive some of the questions were. But also how, again, I keep on using this word, specific, but, like, how specific they were. But they all were like the same over and over and over again. So let's get to the first one. Sure. The first question was. Well, actually, some of our longtime listeners actually use this word. Cause we use it on the show. One of the first fun candle terms I'd ever heard was the word throw. And listeners who, you know, been hanging around a while were asking about the term throw. Like a. Like what? Well, I'd love for you to define it, but also like how indicative of a candle's quality is a throw.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yes, it definitely is indicative of a candle's quality. So there's two kinds of throw, and they're very easy to understand. You've got the cold throw, which is the throw of the candle when it's not lit. And then you've got the hot throw, which is the fragrance of the candle that is in the room.

[Jess]

I love this episode already.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

So, you know, for us, for example, we want to test the hot throw, and we want it to match the cold throw for what we put into our own brand. And I can tell you that we actually had a large customer today who developed their own fragrance without checking with us. And their hot throw and their cold throw were completely off.

[Jess]

Wow.

[Jen Sullivan]

So when you go, oh, it's the worst.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Oh, yeah. And they. They came back at us and they said, hey, this candle doesn't smell like it does. And I said, well, you know, you didn't listen to us on what. On how to. How to formulate the fragrance. And now you're coming back to me with this question. But definitely. So we try on our side to. We want the customer to smell the candle in the store for our own brand and to have an anticipatory experience of what that's going to be like in the room. And it shouldn't be that far off. Of course, when it goes into the room, you're going to lose some of the subtlety that you have when you're able to get your nose right there and smell the fragrance right in the wax. But it should be very, very similar and along the same type of note qualities.

[Jess]

So, yeah, because one time I bought a fragrance, I bought a candle, sorry. And it had an amazing cold throat. I bought it as a souvenir. I bought it, like, when I was on vacation. And then I lit it at home and it was like nothing. Nada. Could not believe it. So what happens? Do they not put enough oil in there or is it just a balance of chemistry that's too annoying to explain right now?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Probably both of those.

[Jess]

Yeah.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

I mean, it could be the wrong wick. It could be that they didn't load the right type of fragrance and the right type of wax. It could be a variety of things, but this is something that they needed to have worked out well before they got it onto the store shelf.

[Jess]

Got it. Got it.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

And they could have if they put the time and energy into it, if.

[Jen Sullivan]

They went to Lewis.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

That's right.

[Jen Sullivan]

That's right. You didn't say it. I did. Don't worry.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Thank you for that. Thank you for that.

[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jess]

Sure.

[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jess]

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[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jen Sullivan]

And what about the quality that Jess was asking about? Like, oh, yeah, yeah, because some people might want a subtle thing. Like they pick it up and they're like, oh, it's subtle good. It won't give me a headache or whatever.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, definitely, definitely. So a lot of times people ask, like, you know, for example, what makes a candle really present in the room? And we kind of think about it like musical notes. Yeah. We talk about fragrance notes and we talk about the things that you're about to experience. But you know, when you listen to a piece of music and you hear something that's very high pitched or very deep bass, when you walk into the room and that music's playing, you hear those notes, they come out, they're present. And it's the same way with fragrance in a candle. If you have a very kind of sweet or tart note that's right there at the top and a very woody bass note when you put that candle on and when you burn it in the room, it's going to sing in the room with those same kind of notes. And so we look at it like we do music, as I was mentioning, you can have a lot of subtle notes. You can play a lot of quiet things. And some people might like that, and some people might seek that out in a candle where they're looking for something that's very, very much in the background, Much in the same way they would play background music. Other people want it to be right in the forefront and different notes get that different quality in a candle.

[Jen Sullivan]

And it's not necessarily quality of what you're after.

[Jess]

Yeah, it's a matter of taste. Okay.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay. Okay. You mentioned a little bit the wax. And so we got a lot of questions about the types of wax, like, does the type of wax matter? Which feels very generic to ask that way. But a couple people phrased it sort of leadingly and said, why is soy wax better? I don't know if they've been marketed to in that way. But can you, can you clear this up for us? Like, what's the difference between the waxes and is there, quote, a best one?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

We think that soy is the best wax for a Number of reasons. Some of the reasons are for what it is, and other reasons are for what it's not. So, for example, it's not a derivative of a product of the oil industry. So paraffin, which is the most commonly used wax in candles around the world, is really a byproduct of oil production. It has similar qualities with hardeners added into it, like, for example, Vaseline, I guess that's a brand name, but it's Petrolatum. Yeah, petrolatum, exactly. Whereas soy. So our soy is grown in the United States. It's a renewable resource. It's a plant, and it burns cleaner as well. So in addition to being cleanly produced, it also is a cleaner burning medium inside the house. It's a vegetable oil. So when you're cooking, you're using vegetable oils in the house, you're heating them up, those are dispersing into the air. Now, when you're burning a candle, you are also dispersing whatever that medium is into the air, whether it be paraffin, coconut, beeswax, or soy. And so for us, soy is a wax that doesn't produce soot. So petroleum based paraffin will produce a black edge around the candle. A soy candle probably won't do that unless you get the wick too hot, which is another issue. But petroleum based candles will also put kind of a stain on your walls over time.

[Jen Sullivan]

And so there's more of like a particulate matter that burns off with that kind of candle is what you're saying.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Exactly, exactly.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, interesting. And so soy wax is not going to do that for you. Right, that makes sense. And how you also mentioned the wick, you said they might have put the wrong wick. Who even knew there was a right wick? Some of our listeners asked, how does the wick material affect the candle? And once again, the question being like, is there a best one?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, the best wick is the right wick for the vessel, really? And for the vessel, the wax combination. So when you're talking about a candle burning, a lot of people, and a lot of people want to ask things like, you know, how do I burn the candle properly? And sometimes we get calls from, for example, like, why does my candle have a tunnel in the center of it? And so there's a couple of reasons why. One, the wick might be too small. So ultimately, what you're looking to do is create a burn pool. So a burn pool is the liquefied section of the candle that's at the top of the candle. If you want to burn your Candle properly. You start it out by burning as close to the edges of the glass as possible. So you light the candle and you let it burn for possibly an hour, two hours, three hours, so that the burn pool extends all the way to the edges of the vessel. Yes, this is going to give you the best quality.

[Jen Sullivan]

Non tunneling.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Non tunneling. So a lot of people, they say, oh, you know what? I want to. This candle cost me $35, $40, whatever. It cost you 80 dol. I want to save this candle. So I'm going to, I'm going to just burn it just a little bit until I get that fragrance into the room and then I'm going to put it out. And what you're actually going to do is half the life of that candle because you're just going to create a tunnel and eventually the wax is going to pool in on itself and extinguish the wick and you're not going to be able to burn the entire candle.

[Jess]

Wait, but Louis, like, how do you get out of this misery?

[Jen Sullivan]

How do you get out of the tunnel?

[Jess]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

If you start to get a tunnel, you have to do a couple of long burns and you might want to over burn the candle for, you know. So let's say that the candle's recommended burn time is two hours, but you've only burned it for half an hour, three times in a row. You might have to burn that candle for four hours now, twice in a row to kind of get the heat to melt the wax that's on top there.

[Jen Sullivan]

I did not know you could overburn. I have never read the instructions on a candle and stuck to the time limit.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

What?

[Jen Sullivan]

Is that bad?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, have you ever noticed that maybe at the top of your.

[Jess]

It comes with instructions?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, yeah.

[Jen Sullivan]

What? Now that you're saying it, I'm thinking I say like burn for two to four hours or whatever.

[Jess]

I've never seen instructions in my entire.

[Jen Sullivan]

Life because we don't read them because we're excited and we just like trash.

[Jess]

The box and just burn.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah.

[Jen Sullivan]

So why. Yeah, tell us why.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, have you ever noticed at the top, every now and then you get a. At the top of the wick, it creates kind of like a mushrooming look.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, that means that you've created too much heat and that the wick has become over carboned and it creates a mushroom at the top.

[Jen Sullivan]

I usually snip that guy off the next time I burn.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, that's a wise move. You definitely want to do that.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yes. Yes, but if I hadn't burned it so long, I wouldn't have gotten my little mushroom tip.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Exactly, exactly.

[Jess]

What does that mean? You overburned it. You mean like you lit it too long?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah. You created too much heat and it created the mushroom. What?

[Jen Sullivan]

That's actually blew up the end of my wick?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah, it's actually inhibiting the ability of the wick to bring the fragrance up.

[Jess]

I'm having to have a panic attack.

[Jen Sullivan]

Next time my candle does a little mushroom thing, it's time to blow it out. Right. Is what you're saying.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, you know what, I'm going to give you a tip here. One thing is that rather than blowing out your candle, you would be best to use an extinguishing lid. Because that way you've created this environment in your room in your home. You walk in there, extinguish it with the lid. That way the smoke doesn't get into the room. And now you still have your fragrance in the room. And I'll give you another kind of insider's tip for wick treatment. So if you don't have an extinguishing.

[Jess]

Lid, but can you tell people what that is? Because I'm like a snuffer.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah.

[Jess]

I'm picturing like 1970, 1776, old timey Ebenezer Scrooge.

[Jen Sullivan]

Some people have those.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Oh well, there are snuffers, but there's also a lid that you can just. Some candles come with them. A lot of our candles do where you can just put drop the lid on top of the candle and it will take the air out of it and it will extinguish itself. Another thing that you can do if you don't have an extinguishing lid, and I love this little trick is you can take a paperclip and just make it into an L shaped.

[Jess]

Okay.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

And when the candle is still lit, you don't blow it out yet. You just take the paperclip and put it a little bit underneath the melted section into the burn pool, push the wick over and submerge it in the liquid so that the wick becomes totally. It will extinguish itself and then with the same paperclip just now re erect the wick and leave it there for the next time.

[Jen Sullivan]

But it doesn't have like a little bit of wax residue on it.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

It will have a little bit of wax residue.

[Jen Sullivan]

But it'll still light.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

It will still light. Most wicks are pre waxed as it is. A lot of wicks are sold with Wax on them. It helps them remain upright in the candle, gives them an extra little bit of strength.

[Jen Sullivan]

I love that I took you off topic there, but just to finish the wick story there. So some are cotton, some waxed cotton. Like, how do you decide which one to use?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

A lot of it depends on the material of the wax that you're using. So, for example, we pour mainly soy. All soy. I would say we use a cotton wick with a paper core. The paper core helps the wick remain upright, gives it a little bit of extra stability.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, yeah. Nobody likes a floppy wick.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

That's it exactly.

[Jen Sullivan]

Why is this getting so phallic for me? I'm sorry. The mushroom tiff. I'm sorry.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

I knew when I threw the wick being erect in there, something would go wrong in that.

[Jen Sullivan]

I was looking for that conversation before that.

[Jess]

Okay, bringing us back. So I think there have been many people who have probably when trying to fix their candle, and maybe I'm speaking for myself. Like in the olden days, definitely, like, chipped away at the wax. Have you seen that?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Oh, definitely. I've seen that.

[Jess]

Like, even it out.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah.

[Jess]

So that's a bad idea, right?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, usually after they. If it tunnels, right?

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah, probably. Yeah.

[Jess]

And like destroyed and made a very ugly situation. Made an ugly situation uglier.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah. But once you get that. Once you get that top, that excess removed after a few burns, it should smooth back out again. Try to go back to creating that even burn pool across the entire surface, and you'll get back to a beautiful candle.

[Jess]

That's really nice. I didn't know there was a way out. A safe way home.

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[Jess]

I know that I'm going back to this snuffer thing, but I really always thought that those were just like little fancy accessories sold, you know, for really those deep. Actually, those. I have one of those mega, mega diptyque candles where it's like, you know, a door stopper. It was gifted. And when I tried to blow it out, you basically have to stick your head in like a freaking flower pot, almost set your hair on fire. So I was like, oh, that's why they sell those things, you know. But so what's. I have to ask you, what's the harm in a little smoke? Like, edge me for your average, you know, little candle? So you blow it out. What's the big deal? So some smoke comes in the air. Like, why is that a big deal?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

It's no harm, no harm. But, you know, you just want to preserve the environment, right? So you've burned your candle for a few hours. Who wants smoke in the room? You'd rather still have the fragrance that you've really bought the candle for to be the thing that remains rather than the smoke.

[Jess]

I get it, I get it. Okay, that's cool. You've convinced me. I think I'll probably use the paperclip trick first, though, before.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Give it a try. Let me know how it works.

[Jess]

Adding something else into my home, the.

[Jen Sullivan]

Smoke made me think of something. So I have a candle that when I burn it, sometimes my air purifier sort of kicks into gear. It tells me when it's, like, kicking into gear. And I'm thinking, oh, is it thinking there's something bad in the air? And so we had a lot of people ask this question. The number one question actually we got was about quote, unquote, toxicity. Now, Jess and I do not. We do not take lightly to that term because we feel like it's overused. So I don't really wanna. I'm not saying it's toxic, but can I ask you, like, is there anything bad that candles do to the air quality indoors that would be harmful to your health or maybe to your home?

[Jess]

To your knowledge. To your knowledge, no one's going to sue you and say, I mean, dad.

[Jen Sullivan]

Being a relative term too. Like, however you see that.

[Jess]

Yes. In your opinion.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Definitely. I would say that there's definitely some candles that are made with very poor quality oils. Maybe the fragrance oil is the thing. For example, since we use soy, our area to be concerned about the toxicity would be with the fragrance oil. That's where the majority of the chemicals are used. And I haven't seen any studies about toxicity. But I can tell you that from our standpoint, we recommend all of our clients, and we definitely, for our own candles, create the fragrances to Japanese, European and California standards. Those are the highest standards in the world right now for toxicity. Those are the most stringent regulations. So as you know from your experience talking about beauty products and toxicity and what's good for you, so much of that, you can't keep up with that. It could be a fad, it could be a trend. It could be based on real science, it could be based on hearsay. A magazine will produce an article saying that something's bad for you. Suddenly nobody buys it. Turns out it might not be. But once the bad word is out there, you can never kind of put that back into the bag. So for us, it's definitely about creating a clean base and using the highest level of regulated fragrance that we can.

[Jen Sullivan]

Well, so a lot of fragrances are made with essential oils. And I know, for example, that some essential oils are not good for my dog. Like, I wouldn't want him to like touch them. But can I use a candle that has those oils? Would that be harmful to a pet? A lot of people asked about, like, what about my pets? What are their standards? Like?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, as far as essential oil goes, you know, some of the essential oils are actually quite dangerous. Like.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah, that's why I'm asking.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Cinnamon oil probably burn right through if you, if you touched it. And I would definitely, you know, if, if, if, if any human being or pet starts to react in a negative way to something newly that's been introduced to the environment, if that's a candle, I would definitely stop using that candle right away.

[Jen Sullivan]

Are there any essential oils that you don't like? You might be able to use in like a fragrance or a lotion, but you guys don't put it in a candle for that reason. Like a cinnamon oil.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Exactly. Like a cinnamon oil. For example, we probably would look for a substitute to rosewood and to some sandalwoods due to the over culling of those trees. So we would look for a synthetic solution to that for environmental reasons.

[Jen Sullivan]

That's funny, because cinnamon is such a popular smell.

[Jess]

I feel like cinnamon was like. Lots of homes in America smell like cinnamon.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, they're definitely using chemically created cinnamons.

[Jess]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[Jen Sullivan]

Otherwise everybody's gonna have like their eyes watering. Yeah.

[Jess]

So, okay, so I don't want people listening to this being like, oh my.

[Jen Sullivan]

God, get them on fire.

[Jess]

Yeah. So people shouldn't. If they're, they're at their family's house and smells like cinnamon, they shouldn't like overturn a table and be like, you gotta get rid of this. Right. That. You're not saying if you smell cinnamon panic, you're just saying that certain oils may be problematic.

[Jen Sullivan]

It's interesting too. Cause I could see someone being like, oh, I'll just melt down this soy wax and throw in some powdered cinnamon from my, you know, and try and make their own. It could be dangerous. Right?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, don't do that. Everybody, don't do that.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Don't try that at home.

[Jess]

That's why things are best left to professionals.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yes. Okay. Speaking. Okay, back to the professional. Another question we got a lot was can you please explain the massive price differences in candles? I think more than a lot of other products we buy, you could get a $3 candle or you could get a $100 candle. What is going on?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

There's a bunch of things going on there.

[Jen Sullivan]

Talk to us.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

One is marketing budgets. So candles with big marketing budgets have to charge more. It's the same as the fragrance industry. I don't want to break any, I don't want to break any news stories here, but you know, a lot of these $220 fragrances have all in costs of like $6.50, but they have unbelievable marketing campaigns that are thrown behind them, and those cost a lot more than the products themselves. That's one of the reasons. Another reason is that.

[Jess]

Wait, what?

[Jen Sullivan]

We talk about it all the time.

[Jess]

Wait, slow down, slow down.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

You guys are actually cracking me up. You guys are so funny.

[Jen Sullivan]

No, you're preaching to the choir. We're familiar. We're familiar.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Okay, good, good.

[Jen Sullivan]

But I have heard that candles are sort of like a loss leader. That like making the fragrance in an alcohol base is actually sometimes cheaper than making a fragranced candle.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Absolutely. Because you know, the, the material that goes into a candle can be expensive. But back to your question about what makes a price difference. The other areas that make a price difference, and for us, this is a real area, are the cost of fragrances. So one of the major costs in the candle itself is the fragrance. And for us, we, we, we buy high quality fragrances. And a low end fragrance that we use, not necessarily a poor quality, but a low price point could be 25% of the higher priced fragrances that we buy. So you can be drastically different in your price with the candle based on the fragrance, the cost of the fragrance themselves, the raw materials, there's that. There's also packaging which goes a lot into it and you know, the ceramic.

[Jen Sullivan]

Beautiful hand blown glass or whatever.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Exactly.

[Jen Sullivan]

Just one thing. On the fragrance oil. I had a question. I've heard also that like an eau de Cologne, you know, might have 3% or 5% of a fragrance oil in the alcohol base, but the candles have to have a really high percentage of fragrance oil. Is that true?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah, our candles typically have between 6 and 10% fragrance oil in them. And that again, it depends on the kind of the notes of the fragrance and how it reacts with the base and how well we get the cold throw and the hot throw.

[Jen Sullivan]

As we mentioned earlier, what's the most percentage you've put into a candle for someone you made?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, really, we can't go much higher than 10%. Yeah. But an odd thing to understand is that sometimes more is not better and sometimes you will get a better candle by putting less fragrance in it. So for example, if you're using a candle that has a lot of vanilla and you're thinking about putting it at 10%, you're going to really risk a candle that's not going to be able to produce enough heat. It might tunnel. But if you put in 3%, for example, you might get a fantastic candle that throws beautifully and burns very well.

[Jess]

Might it also be less expensive because you didn't need as much oil?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah, I mean it could be, but often those, those oils are often the heavy oils are often expensive as well.

[Jen Sullivan]

Vanilla is a heavy oil.

[Jess]

Okay, so I've got to ask you, you know, I know that you are going to be biased because you want to work with your. You might want to shout out some of your vendors. When you can't say who you not vendors, your clients. And you can't say your clients. So this may be kind of a tricky question to answer, but can you shout out some of your favorite all time candles?

[Jen Sullivan]

Brand and scent, please.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Brand and scent.

[Jess]

Or maybe you want to do this. Maybe. Okay. You're getting someone a gift. What are some great gifts? Candles that you would give someone?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

I'm a really big fan of Sir Trudon candles.

[Jess]

Okay.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

They are actually.

[Jess]

Those are nice candles. They're very beautiful.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, they're mint one. That's like the tea.

[Jess]

Yeah, the tea.

[Jen Sullivan]

It's like a tea in the mint Khaled. I don't know.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah. They have so many beautiful candles, really lovely fragrances. It's an old company that used to make church candles. I believe that they may be right around Normandy and they recently kind of converted into a luxury brand. So I do love Sir Trudon candles. And I will have to say when I'm not burning a cobalt candle at my own home, I will burn a Sir Trudon candle.

[Jess]

Is there one that you like?

[Jen Sullivan]

Tell us the. Oh, yeah. And the search. Sorry, didn't we.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Oh, I'm so terrible with names.

[Jess]

Honestly, their names aren't the easiest to just like roll off the tongue.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah, yeah, I do.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah. Butchered the mint one. What about with Kobo?

[Jess]

What are some of your favorite shout outs from babies?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Oh, saffron sandalwood is a real. One of my favorite candles that we make. We have a super popular candle, vetiver and shaved vanilla. It's very lovely. You know, vetiver is, is really an, as you know, from the perfume world. Vetiver is in like 40% of the fragrances worldwide. It's a, it's a fantastic fragrance that originally was from a grass, the roots of a grass that was grown in the south of France. Then a lot of that production moved to Haiti and now also some of it is in India as well. But it's, it's a very widely used oil. And mixing that vetiver, which has these nice beautiful sharp edges on it with the round vanilla creates a really great candle. And vetiver and shea vanilla is a great candle. I love. You know, when I go to stay at an apartment, if we're going to go traveling around and hit something up, we often bring a pamplemouse candle, which is grapefruit, because that will cut through everything. As I was mentioning earlier about those notes, this is a really high pitched candle. You put it in any room and suddenly it smells like citrus and grapefruit. So when you're traveling, it's a great way to kind of make the space our own. We take it in there, light that candle.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah. And it feels like a jet lag cure too. Like a little fresh and zingy kind of, I guess. Can we ever travel again?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yes. Yes, exactly.

[Jess]

I like that.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

We will. We will travel again.

[Jess]

Great.

[Jen Sullivan]

Sounds lovely.

[Jess]

Before we let you go, we're gonna just hit you with our fat mascara. Five quick fun lightning round. So just say whatever comes to. He's like, oh, my God, I'm still here. Okay, ready?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Go ahead.

[Jess]

What is the first grooming product you remember falling in love with or at least liking?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Oh, my gosh. There was this shaving cream that came out as like a gel and when I put it on, it turned into foam. When I was just learning to shave.

[Jess]

Edge, like the edge is what I was thinking of.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah. Yes, yes, I know.

[Jess]

Cause I have a brother. Yeah. Yeah. I remember him getting it and I'm like, oh, cool.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

I thought it was the coolest thing.

[Jess]

It was cool.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

I had hardly any whiskers anyway, but it just felt so good going on.

[Jess]

Yeah, that was cool. Okay. What quality do you admire most in others?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Humility.

[Jess]

If there was one rule you wish everyone would follow, what would it be?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Be nice.

[Jess]

That's nice.

[Jen Sullivan]

I thought he was gonna say, like, bird pool to the ending.

[Jess]

I know. I thought he was gonna say something candle y. I just feel like people.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Need to be nice.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yes.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

You know, meet a person. You don't know them. Be nice. You know, love them. This is the whole point.

[Jess]

It's very difficult for people. It's very difficult for people, unfortunately. Okay, what is the most played song on your playlist right now?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

I think it's called Water Got no Enemy by Fela Kuti.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, my gosh. I know that song. I play it all the time. One of my favorites.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, I gotta email you. I have a couple, like, remix versions from other artists that are very cool.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Ah, man.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah, it's a good one.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah.

[Jess]

And if there were to be a movie made of your life, who would you want to narrate it to?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Narrate it?

[Jess]

Yeah.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, jeez, I can't say Morgan Freeman.

[Jen Sullivan]

Why not?

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Oh, that's what I want to narrate. I don't. Jeez. I don't know. So many people.

[Jen Sullivan]

We're not expecting to be able to call them up.

[Jess]

It's not gonna happen.

[Jen Sullivan]

We could extend it. Like, they don't have to currently be working. This could be, like, in any time. Like, whose voice is, like, indicative of you?

[Jess]

It could be a cartoon.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Oh, indicative of me?

[Jess]

It could be anything.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Whose voice do I love? I don't.

[Jen Sullivan]

It's a little bit of both, I would say.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

I mean, he doesn't sound anything like me, but I would really love for Milton Nascimento to be the voice.

[Jen Sullivan]

I don't know who that is.

[Jess]

I don't know who that is. I'm so sorry.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, we can share playlists then. Milton Nashimento.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, he's a musician.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah.

[Jess]

Okay.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Okay. His voice, just when he starts to sing or to speak, it just goes right through me, so.

[Jess]

Well, then it's gotta be him then.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Yeah.

[Jess]

If he goes right through you, it sounds like it's gotta be him.

[Jen Sullivan]

He's got good. He's got a good hot throw.

[Jess]

Okay. Thank you so much, Lewis.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, my God. You taught us so much. Thank you for coming on the show.

[Jess]

Yeah, this was awesome. All right. I can't believe I've been burning wrong, like, my entire life.

[Lewis Hotchkiss]

Well, I hope that something comes out. I hope that some people get things out of it, for sure.

[Jess]

Yes. You've definitely saved a lot of candles tonight. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed the show.

[Jen Sullivan]

It's your reviews and feedback that help us make the podcast even better. Head over to itunes to rate and review us or email your thoughts to infoatmascara.com we also want to answer your.

[Jess]

Beauty questions and hear what products you love. To share a raizy one product review or to ask a beauty question, Email us at infoatmascara.

[Jen Sullivan]

If you send it as a voice memo file, we can even share your voice on the podcast. You can also do that by leaving us a voice message. Our phone number in the United States is 646-481-8182.

[Jess]

Thanks so much for listening.

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