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- [00:00]
Paige DeSorbo
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- [00:37]
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- [01:25]
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- [01:44]
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- [01:47]
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- [02:09]
Jen Sullivan
Hello everyone. Welcome to Fat Mascara. I'm Jen Sullivan. It's me. So if you didn't listen to Wednesday's episode, maybe go back and listen to that one. I dropped a bomb on you all. I have accepted a full time job so I won't be able to do fat mascara anymore after next week. So the show as you know it and as we all is coming to an end, but Jess and I will be back next week. We're not sad yet we're gonna do a proper wrap up. I'll explain my new job, why it means no more podcast, and we're gonna get very, very nostalgic. So I hope you're okay with that. But today, today, today, can we just have some fun? I was thinking back over this last nine years that we've done the podcast and I did a little math. I was curious, what is our most popular interview of all time, taking into account all the things? So it's actually neck and neck between Dr. Irene Idris and that was in 2019 and Caroline Hirons in 2020. Ultimately, though, Caroline nudged out a win. Congratulations to you, Caroline. You have your own podcast now, so clearly you're very good at that. But I wanted to replay this interview now because it also took place at a really pivotal time for Jess and I in the podcast. It was February 2020, like literally the week before Jess had her baby Lake, who is now five years old. So this was right before the shut everything down and we had to figure out how to make a podcast remotely. It was just a really pivotal moment in beauty. Clean beauty was surging in popularity. Caroline used a lot of her interview and we asked her about this, but to talk about how she didn't like fear mongering, she didn't like the whole idea of calling cosmetic ingredients toxics. And a lot has changed since then. But I would say Caroline's only dug deeper into who she is. She launched her own skincare line, skin rocks, in 2022. And just a year ago, she launched her own podcast. Glad we had this chat with Carolyn Hiron. So I'm replaying now as we wind down Fat Mascara. I'm replaying now Best of Fat Mascara, our interview with Caroline Hirons. If we sound different, it's because Jess is like nine months pregnant. I'm five years younger. But it's still a great chat. I hope you enjoy it and we'll see you back here next week.
- [04:28]
Caroline Hirons
So, Caroline, Yes. Before you were the Internet skin guru and I've just given you that title. Okay, you are an esthetician or I mean, you still, like, no one took those credentials away from you, but you were an esthetician. So can you just tell us and our listeners a little bit about your life before YouTube and Instagram and all that?
- [04:46]
Well, I worked in the beauty industry since like 97 and I just had a passion for skin skincare that was much stronger than makeup. And, you know, so I went and got my qualifications, knew that skin was my sort of forete. What very fortuitously happened was I was working in space. NK and Sylvie Shondkai came in one night.
- [05:07]
Ah.
- [05:08]
And basically had offered me a job within, like, 20 minutes.
- [05:12]
What did you do that impressed her?
- [05:14]
Told her that she didn't have any system and everything needed. She had Understock and they didn't have.
- [05:18]
Jen Sullivan
Any tests sounds on brand for you.
- [05:20]
Caroline Hirons
Yeah, but in a very polite way. And I'd given my notice in that day, I was gonna go and work for Clarins. So the universe was just lining everything up.
- [05:28]
Can I ask you. You mentioned that you were more passionate about skincare than makeup. I think that a lot of people are really into your channels and everything feel the same. Why are you more passionate about skincare?
- [05:39]
Yeah, it was just the, you know, the. The mental health aspect of having healthy skin. They go hand in hand. And, you know, when you. When you fix someone's skin who's had real problems, whether it's on the rosacea spectrum or the acne spectrum, or even just advise them, even if they're not coming to me for treatment, which I don't do now, but even if 9th said, okay, you need this derm and you need this cream, but they'll advise you better than me. Da, da, da, da. And then, you know, a few months later, you get great messages saying, thank you so much for your recommendations. Just the, you know, the lift that that person gets is the best part of the job.
- [06:10]
So you also have a new book coming out on top of everything else you do. It's just called Skincare the Ultimate Guy. Why did you decide to do a book now?
- [06:20]
I always said, I don't need to do a book. It's on. It's there on the blog for everyone to see.
- [06:23]
Yeah.
- [06:24]
But then it was actually my readers who would say, and the freaks group on Facebook who would say, but my mum's not on Facebook. But my mum's not on the blog. My friend doesn't know how to read blogs. She just looks at magazines. And the advice isn't really up to date. So eventually it was my readers who would say, but if you do one, then I can have this at home and I can buy one for my mom. And I thought, okay. And also, you know, ultimately, a lot of things I end up doing, I end up doing. So my mom is happy.
- [06:46]
Jen Sullivan
So I hope you don't mind. We have questions for you, but we also have some listener questions. Of course. So first off, this is a conversation that comes up all the time on our show. Jess and I talk about quote unquote, clean beauty. And I love.
- [06:58]
Caroline Hirons
She's already laughing.
- [06:59]
Jen Sullivan
I love that your Instagram says everything is a chemical. Stop the nonsense. But lots of our. Isn't that amazing?
- [07:06]
Caroline Hirons
I'm just like dumb and dumb.
- [07:06]
I want a T shirt. Like, did you have that on merch? You need that on merch.
- [07:11]
Jen Sullivan
But lots of our listeners do want to know what's going on with the clean beauty movement. I'm sure you're going to agree with me. There's no definition for clean beauty. Where do you think this whole want for clean beauty comes from?
- [07:23]
Caroline Hirons
Fear mongering.
- [07:25]
Jen Sullivan
By who?
- [07:25]
Caroline Hirons
Who's doing brands and retailers and so do you.
- [07:29]
Jen Sullivan
Do you yourself have any quote. No. No ingredients?
- [07:33]
Caroline Hirons
Not really.
- [07:34]
Jen Sullivan
So nothing's off limits for you?
- [07:36]
Caroline Hirons
No. I'm not a fan of mineral oil.
- [07:38]
Jen Sullivan
Okay.
- [07:38]
Caroline Hirons
Just because it's sort of cheap and it's. We're in a very weird situation now where especially because as the US tend to shout louder, whereas.
- [07:47]
Really?
- [07:48]
Yeah, funny that. But the European. I'm allowed, by the way, in case anyone takes offense. My mother's American. I can say whatever I want. Don't shoot me.
- [07:53]
Jen Sullivan
You can say whatever you want. Regardless, we like it.
- [07:56]
Caroline Hirons
We're in this weird situation, especially on social media where there is dermatologists getting higher profiles, there's cosmetic scientists getting high profiles, then you have all the clean and green people and then you have estheticians. And the difference is estheticians put their hands on more people than anyone. So I say to, you know, there are like over 3,000 skin diseases. I'm not a dermatologist. But I promise you, if you put me in a room and put me head to head about product, I'll take them all on at the same time. I know more about product than any of them. So for me it's looking at a skin and going, show me your makeup bag. You know, show me your beauty bag. What have you got? Don't use that as too drying. That's going to be too silicone for you. You need this first, then you need an acid, then you need this. So for me we're in this strange space where as I've said a lot of times on videos in the uk, the tail is wagging. The dog. The dog being the industry and the tail being the customer.
- [08:40]
Yes.
- [08:41]
And this whole fear mongering thing that's come, it has primarily come from the east coast, the west coast in America, sorry, California has a lot to answer for.
- [08:49]
Jen Sullivan
Really?
- [08:50]
Jess
Yeah.
- [08:50]
Caroline Hirons
So I mean that's our interpretation in the uk okay. Because when we see it, they're always in la.
- [08:56]
Jen Sullivan
And what about like the Environmental Working Group when they put out a press release that they are like not happy with this ingredient because it needs more testing? Do you ever find there to be truth behind some of that?
- [09:05]
Caroline Hirons
I cannot stand them. They make my blood boil.
- [09:08]
Jen Sullivan
Because they're again, part of the fear mongering machine you were talking about.
- [09:11]
Caroline Hirons
They're like the very foundation of it.
- [09:12]
Do you think people, you know, because people, a lot of brands will cite the ewg, like in their idiots, in their breasts, idiots. Do you think that it's out of naivete or do you think, no, they're.
- [09:24]
Jumping on a bandwagon, they want to be clean. They're not naive. These people have money, they want to make money. They know it's marketing. I was in LA when the episode of the Kardashians was on because it's the law when you're in la, you have to put the Kardashians on because it's like 24 7. And it was when Kourtney had been approached by the EWG and this woman said to her, you know, I can tell you now for a definite that there is lead in your lipstick. And I nearly punched the tv.
- [09:47]
Do you think that they're outright lying with a lot of this stuff or do you think they're interpreting things?
- [09:51]
No, they're outright lying. They've only recently gone not for profit. They never started that that way.
- [09:56]
Jen Sullivan
I always wanted to try and find out what was behind really.
- [09:58]
Caroline Hirons
They never started as a not for profit. They were always. And they do not have a toxicologist on staff. And if they do, it's a very recent acquisition because we've all been bitching about it. So they go on and on about the word toxic, but they don't hire anyone who actually knows what they are.
- [10:11]
That word scares me, the word toxic. Because when people say, I know a lot of brands use non toxic beauty, but it's like, well, what's the alternative? What is the. What are the toxic things? And isn't everything toxic at some level?
- [10:23]
Of course, yeah. The toxicity is dose dependent. That's another T shirt. Toxicity is dose dependent.
- [10:28]
Jen Sullivan
I want that one too.
- [10:29]
Caroline Hirons
Water is the, you know, the manner of life. We all need water, but if you have too much water, you can end up in hospital. It drives me to distraction and I will actively. Someone asked me to review, I want to say, is it versed? Oh, can you see? What do you think of this? It's in Target and I Opened up the website because I always go and look, I'm always like, you know, what do you want me to see when I'm in the States? And the first three sentences, I thought I just got rage, like, educate your client, educate your customer. Don't fear monger people into buying something because I lose all respect.
- [10:58]
You're not a fan of Goop, I'm guessing?
- [11:01]
Not particularly, no.
- [11:02]
Have you seen the Goop Lab?
- [11:04]
I have. I managed to watch half of one episode and I found myself laughing so much. And I've had four children. That's not a safe place to be.
- [11:10]
Jen Sullivan
What's your new favorite sitcom?
- [11:11]
Caroline Hirons
I can't. I cannot. And I was on Instagram Stories in hysterics, and I had to turn it off because I thought it's just going to look like I'm bashing it. And they're an easy target.
- [11:19]
Jen Sullivan
Yeah.
- [11:20]
Caroline Hirons
And also, I'd rather give my. You know, that's out there. That. That's nonsense. But like you said, every other brand is doing it now.
- [11:37]
Jess
All right. It's that time of year. Lots of gifting, heavy gifting. We've got Mother's Day, we've got dads and grads. I'm sure there's some other gifting moment. It's. It's also a heavy birthday season in my life. I don't know about you, but I found that Masterclass is the perfect gift because there's something for everybody, whether they want to learn more about home decor, fashion, cooking, history. We've even got a new series. Jen, I know you just got a sneak peek, right?
- [12:01]
Jen Sullivan
I did indeed. And the best part about Masterclass as a gift, you don't have to wait for it to ship. It's virtual, so you can do it at the very last minute. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow. With over 200 plus of the world's best for just $10 a month, billed annually, a membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every single instructor. It's an amazing deal. Now, this skin health series that you alluded to, Jess, our famous scour listeners are going to love this. If you don't understand 12 step skincare, you think there's too many products to buy and you can't weed through them. You don't know how your skin works. This is a series with world class dermatologists and a top cosmetic chemist. I'm just going to say right now there might be some familiar fat mascara faces. Anyway, they'll help you figure out what's real what's a scan how to get stronger, Healthier skin for life. Such a great idea.
- [12:47]
Jess
Our listeners always get great discounts on Masterclass of at least 15% off of any annual membership@masterclass.com FatMascara See Masterclass's latest deal of at least 15% off@masterclass.com FatMASCARA masterclass.com FatMascara.
- [13:12]
Unknown
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- [13:42]
Jen Sullivan
McCrispy strips are now at McDonald's tender juicy and its own sauce. Would you look at that? Well, you can't see it, but trust.
- [13:50]
Caroline Hirons
Me, it looks delicious.
- [13:53]
Jen Sullivan
New McCrispy strips now at McDonald's. What are some of this is a question from Megan, one of our followers. What are some of the myths that just keep coming up about skincare that every time you see it and you're like, how many more times do I have to tell you this isn't the case?
- [14:16]
Caroline Hirons
Everyone's still obsessed with their paws.
- [14:18]
Jen Sullivan
Their. Their paws.
- [14:19]
Caroline Hirons
Paws. Paws.
- [14:20]
Jen Sullivan
Oh, paws.
- [14:21]
Caroline Hirons
I was like, kitty cat paws.
- [14:23]
Jen Sullivan
Their paws.
- [14:24]
Caroline Hirons
No, they're paws.
- [14:25]
Jen Sullivan
What, the fact that we can't close and open them, you mean.
- [14:27]
Caroline Hirons
Yes, yes. Paws is relentless. To be honest. There are still so much out there that I it's innumerable.
- [14:34]
Jen Sullivan
But I don't mind.
- [14:36]
Caroline Hirons
But when it becomes, when it becomes an educational piece, I don't mind how many times I'm asked a question on social media. There's always going to be someone new. I mean, I say the same thing with my team. You know, no question is too stupid. No question can be asked too many times because obviously I spent most of my career in training as well. So you kind of get that side of you have to be able to sort of say to people, talk to people in a way that they want to be receptive to what you have to say.
- [15:01]
How do you know when you think a product is working? Because when Jen and I, like, we get so many products as editors, I'm sure you get the exact same amount. You know, it's hard to isolate sometimes. Like, okay, I love this product. I Love the texture, I love the smell of the packaging. Yada, yada, yada. The, you know, ingredient list looks legit. But for all testing, so many things, how do you personally vet something as like a Caroline Fave inky list?
- [15:26]
Read the, look at the formula, look at where things sit in the formula. Texture, how well it absorbs, how well it goes on my skin for sort of a week or so and then I can generally tell. A lot of the time you've got to put your faith in a good brand, which is why I don't tend to test a lot of, like, new green brands. I would be scared to try because they won't use parabens. So I'm pretty sure their product, you know, I did say the green thing was meant to be the movement, not the color of your product because you stopped using parabens. So it's. I think if you try, I tend to trust a brand and then I'll look at the products and brands make missteps. You know, you kind of look at, you go, oh, God, I wouldn't have done that, but it's not my business or whatever. But generally, formula is king. So if I, if I look at a brand and I know what testing they've done and I know what ingredients they're using and at what percentages, which you can kind of gauge if you're looking at a, you know, an ingredients list, that's kind of how I do it, really. And then it, then it depends on whether it's fun to use texture or if it's sticky or, you know, anything like that.
- [16:23]
When you say testing done, you talk about clinical testing.
- [16:25]
What kind of clinical testing? Trials. I mean, I don't need that for basics, but if someone is going to tell me that it's going to change the structure of my skin, then you would want to see some testing.
- [16:35]
Got, you know. And where do you see yourself? This is a question from our lovely listener, Lara. She goes, where do you see yourself in relation to the Wild west of beauty influencers?
- [16:45]
I think I kind of stand very much alone because I'm older. I don't go on all these ridiculous trips.
- [16:51]
Do they invite you?
- [16:52]
Oh, no.
- [16:54]
They're probably terrified.
- [16:55]
Well, they know I'm not going to get in a bikini for them, no matter how much they want, they want to throw at me. So I get invited to nicer things. Like I get invited as an individual on my own to labs privately, which is much more preferable to me. I don't have to, you know, I'm not going to sign a piece of paper that says yes. If you fly me in business to Jamaica, I'll put 10 Instagram posts up on my grid over the next four days. Who's got time for that? I'm a businesswoman. I'm not an influencer, but I have influence. So I, I kind of think I separated myself from the very beginning by being at least, at least 10 years older than all of them. Probably 15 years older than most of them. I'm 50. You know, most of these girls are in their 20s. I've been in the industry since they were born, so I don't. And I don't do it dismissively. I do it with the confidence of age.
- [17:37]
Right.
- [17:37]
So I do dismiss them in that way, but I'm not dismissive. You know, a lot of them, I'm. A lot of them are friends of mine. They ask me for advice. They said, we've just got this product, blah, blah, blah, what do you think? And I'll say, not with your skin, babe. And then they go low. Thanks. I thought I was going a bit red story in my life.
- [17:57]
You do have, yeah, that, that reputation for being very. No nonsense, being very honest. And I think a lot of, you know, other people are afraid to be like that in beauty, which is a shame. It is a shame. And I want to ask you about that. Like, for example, this is a few years ago, old example. But like, when glossier come out came out with their sol. You critiqued it fairly, like you gave your opinion. You weren't, you know, unfair.
- [18:20]
It was their reaction to it that made it go viral. How funny is that? That's still my most read post, really.
- [18:25]
So why don't you recap it for our listeners who may not know what we're talking about.
- [18:29]
The solution came out, which is obviously their acid. I coined the term acid toning. That's me. So when it came out, I thought, oh, amazing. Glossier done in acid. And I looked at the inky and I thought, that's a lot of acids. And they're sort of for. For a brand that is traditionally aimed their demographic to be quite young. I felt that the Inkey list was aggressive before I even started it. So then I used it and it stung my face and I took pictures because I had sort of. Well, now it's more like a hive reaction, but it felt like a burn around my nose and I thought, right, I'm just going to take pictures. I'll see if it calms down. I'll try it again. And I Found I could only really use it, like, across the top of my forehead, like areas where your skin just goes. I'll do what you want.
- [19:06]
The rest of tough areas.
- [19:07]
Yeah. Like the soles of your feet, you know. And so I put the post up.
- [19:12]
Jen Sullivan
Great foot exfoliator.
- [19:14]
Caroline Hirons
I put the post up at the bottom of it. I put, you know, these are some alternatives. And I did Glow Tonic, Paula's Choice, and P50, which is the original acid toner that everyone rips off. Right. Well, within. I mean, within 12 hours, they had this esthetician who's since become. We follow each other on Instagram. We're cool. And one of their young employees. And they were. And they were critiquing the three brands that I compared them to without mentioning my name or blog. But I knew what it was. It was a direct message to my blog post. So I just. I just did another blog post the next day and said, oh, glossier. I think it's still called oh, glossier. Like, what are you doing? So they went off to P50, which. That.
- [19:52]
I'm sorry, but that's a private message.
- [19:54]
Or this is on their stories.
- [19:56]
Oh, Lord. Okay.
- [19:58]
There was like 15 Instagram stories slagging off P50. Paula's choice.
- [20:03]
Oh, I'm sure they could have been.
- [20:04]
And Pixi Glow Tonic. Right. So. And I just. And I just said in my stories. I don't know what. In the blog, I don't know what you're doing, but I'll tell you one thing, you've got a pair of Kahunis on you if you're going to go after Paula Burgoyne because she does not play mild.
- [20:15]
Yeah.
- [20:16]
Jen Sullivan
She will listen to our episode with her and you will learn.
- [20:18]
Caroline Hirons
She will come for you and come hard. And the next day, the Polish choice. Instagram was like, still one of my funniest things ever. It was almost like a doctor. The sort of gifts of the doctor in the lab coat. Sort of dropping things in a dust trash can and saying, some people put all of their formulas in one. We have 22 individual asses. And I just thought, oh, my God, they're going for it. And that's still my most used blog post, most seen blog post.
- [20:41]
I know that you're like, okay, I'm just being honest. You're just doing your job. But it's never fun to have conflict. It's never fun to get. To get an email or. I don't get the sense that you thrive on it.
- [20:51]
You're trying to be controversial so much more. I Could talk about the cease and desists I've received, I could talk about lawyers, letters I've had. But I could be so much more controversial. But what I will do is if I believe I've gone in fair and then I get attacked, I think, ah, what are you hiding? What buttons have I pressed with yours?
- [21:07]
It's funny, like, it is a very like, you know, sensitive time in the culture right now where a lot of people, like can't take a punch. But at the same time it's like, you know, art, music, you know, celebrity, like there is critique of all of these things. But for some reason, like if Jen and I were to get on the mics and be like this brand, you know, take shots at a big brand, I can tell you we wouldn't have a great, a great night's sleep that night.
- [21:30]
Do you know why? Because we're women. Gaming. Gaming vloggers make their fortune from. Oh my God, you're right, it's really interesting gaming.
- [21:38]
Jen Sullivan
And then Nintendo or whoever.
- [21:39]
Caroline Hirons
And Nintendo will change things, you know.
- [21:41]
Jen Sullivan
Or change things.
- [21:42]
Caroline Hirons
Yeah, yeah.
- [21:44]
Restaurants, like, they get taken down and.
- [21:46]
Jen Sullivan
Then they fix it.
- [21:47]
Caroline Hirons
And they fix it.
- [21:47]
They fix it, they fix it.
- [21:48]
Or like. And it's because the beauty industry is still predominantly run by middle aged white men. I'm sorry, but it is.
- [21:55]
Jen Sullivan
And they think you don't know what you're talking about.
- [21:56]
Caroline Hirons
You're a woman, that's number one. You're younger than me and I'm not half the time now I'm older than some of them and I'm like, so you worked in finance, Great. I'm really excited. I've been putting my hands on people's faces for 20 years. Come at me, bro. You know, but it's because we're women and it's a women led industry and it's the only industry on earth where there are middle aged white men at the top. But most of the workers are female.
- [22:19]
Jen Sullivan
Have you ever seen a brand respond positively to something in fix something? Because loads of times.
- [22:23]
Caroline Hirons
Good question.
- [22:24]
Yeah.
- [22:24]
Jen Sullivan
Which brand?
- [22:25]
Caroline Hirons
Yeah, so I did a video about nice juice. Shame about the packaging, which was basically, I love this pot, whatever it is, but I like Kerastars. The Kerastase pots of conditioner drive me to distraction because you have to open the lid and then put your hand in it in the shower. Now where do I put the cream in the lid and the pot?
- [22:43]
Why isn't it, why isn't it filling up with water? And it was $74 and I've got.
- [22:47]
To Move over here. And it cost me a kidney. So. But, yeah, I've had. And then the Estee Lauder Advanced Night Repair. The eye cream. That's with the stick, the plastic stick, the dropper. I thought it had broken. No, it's not a dropper, it's a plastic stick.
- [22:59]
Jen Sullivan
I always thought that it was supposed to be a dropper and I had, like, a lab sample that was just.
- [23:03]
Caroline Hirons
I thought. I opened it and I thought, oh, the end's broken off. Like, how am I. I thought it was gonna have a lip gloss end. No, it's a plastic dropper. And I said, this was obviously made by a man in tech because no woman would comfortably rub this around their eye.
- [23:14]
Oh, ouch.
- [23:15]
Yeah, I mean, it's a.
- [23:16]
Jen Sullivan
Did they change the.
- [23:17]
Caroline Hirons
No, but they. They got the message loud and clear. I. I received notice that I had been heard, so it does.
- [23:23]
Jen Sullivan
It's not falling on deaf ears completely.
- [23:25]
Caroline Hirons
No, but it's a very good point. You know, obviously there will be brands who think we're untouchable, and that's fine. I don't care.
- [23:30]
Jen Sullivan
Yeah.
- [23:30]
Caroline Hirons
I'm. I'm not your customer, but I am giving you feedback and I do know what I'm talking about, so. But it's up to them. I get. I'm not going to shout at them. It's just. It is what it is.
- [23:38]
Jen Sullivan
Yeah. We have a question from Monique, one of our listeners. She wanted to know. And this. I want to know this too. When is it good to go to an esthetician versus a dermatologist? Dermatologist.
- [23:47]
Caroline Hirons
If you have had persistent acne since you're a teenager, you should be in front of a dermatologist. If you have rosacea, if your skin's burning, if you have rashes. Rashes, go straight to a doctor. In the uk, we'd go to a doctor, and here you could go to a derm. If you are just, though, looking at your skin and going, this could be a bit better. My tone and elasticity feels a bit. I feel like I've gone a bit saggy. I've got pigmentation, my skin looks dull. Anything that isn't a medical emergency, like if you had the same rash on your butt, would you go to a doctor?
- [24:15]
Jen Sullivan
Okay. That's a good way to think of.
- [24:17]
Caroline Hirons
It's almost like the dermatologist is there to sort of diagnose a skin. A skin condition or a skin disease, God forbid. And we're there more to support the life of your skin throughout your lifetime.
- [24:29]
Okay, we've got Another question from Emily. What order do you apply skin care products?
- [24:35]
Cleanser.
- [24:36]
Okay.
- [24:37]
Acid if you're using it. I don't use any day. Every day anymore. But I, you know, at least once a day, every other day type thing. Then a mist. I like a mist. Cause I'm older and I'm very dehydrated. So where you would traditionally use an essence, maybe in an Eastern routine. Not New York Eastern, as in Far East.
- [24:52]
Yes, yes.
- [24:54]
And then it's eye cream, serum. And then if you want to do moisturizer or oil, it always depends for me on where you are with makeup. So I do oil underneath moisturizer because then my foundation sits better. If I'm going to bed, I'll just put oil. It depends. I prefer leaving moisturizer on top, personally.
- [25:10]
Jen Sullivan
And we always say, we've told our.
- [25:11]
Caroline Hirons
Readers, we've told our listeners and readers oil on top.
- [25:14]
Jen Sullivan
Because if they're not a humectant, the kind of oil. So it depends on the oil, obviously, but it's just like a sealant, an occlusive.
- [25:20]
Caroline Hirons
Yeah.
- [25:20]
Jen Sullivan
So we thought after moisturizer.
- [25:22]
Caroline Hirons
All of this, though, bear in mind, this is why when I see these things and they're so definitive, like in Cosmo. And I just think you can't say.
- [25:27]
Jen Sullivan
That definitively because you don't know which.
- [25:29]
Caroline Hirons
Because you don't know what the product is. So it could be that you're using like a Squalane oil that's really actually quite light and something that's called a serum. Like Vintner's Daughter is an oil. Yes, it's called a serum.
- [25:39]
Right.
- [25:39]
You know, so it all formula is king. And as everyone keeps trying to get me to stay queen. Formula is queen. Like, I cannot stress it enough. I prefer a moisturizer on top because I want my skin to constantly be attracting moisture. I will leave the humectant. Yes. Because I invariably use a hyaluronic acid at some point in my routine. There'll be hyaluronic acid in any moisturizer. So. But. And also, it's more comfortable for an older woman to have a skin that is freshly sort of prepped and then you go and you put your foundation on top afterwards or anything like that. So what drives me to distraction? My only complaint that I do step in and I always get tagged in. It is when people say, you put your eye cream on last. That drives me like I want to headbutt the wall. Okay, now we know not to be dramatic.
- [26:30]
Unknown
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- [27:00]
Paige DeSorbo
Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. Real talk. If there's one store that I absolutely love walking around, it's Sephora. It's my total guilty pleasure. They have amazing brands that other people don't have, and I find something great every time I walk in and there's literally one down the street from me, so I do that a lot. It's so fun to shop in the store and online and the products are just too good. No regrets ever. For example, one of my favorite beauty brands is makeup by Mario, who just launched his new lip gloss that I absolutely love. So the next time you're in the market for great beauty, shop all the hottest products and brands only at Sephora.
- [27:37]
Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. Let's talk about an elite green flag being a cat dad. Temptations, America's number one cat treat brand, is making 2025 the year of the Cat Dad. And honestly, about time. Whether he's coordinating snack time with the meow schedule or just vibing with his tabby, Temptation treats make cat dads even.
- [27:58]
More irresistible to their cats and to us.
- [28:01]
For more information about Temptations Brand Cat Dads, or to learn more about the brand, visit temptationtreats.com and don't forget to share your own CatDad sightings on social.
- [28:12]
We'll be scrolling.
- [28:22]
Jen Sullivan
I'm glad you brought up hyaluronic acid, because we've got a lot of questions about that. There's a lot of talk about is it really the holy grail of moisturization? Is it not all all it's cracked up to be? Some estheticians believe you can develop a sensitivity to it. What's your take on ha?
- [28:36]
Caroline Hirons
I don't think you develop a sensitivity to it. I think it depends on the ph of the formula. So when I'm retinoiding, as I would say, when I'm using a vitamin A and I'm flaking, there are certain hyaluronic acids I can't use because they sting my skin because the ph is low.
- [28:48]
Jen Sullivan
This isn't the quote unquote Molecular weight of the hyaluronic acid?
- [28:52]
Caroline Hirons
Not really, no. It's more about the ph of the formula. So molecular weight, you know, all.
- [28:57]
Jen Sullivan
Now they're like we have multiple molecular weights of hyaluronic acid, which is good.
- [29:00]
Caroline Hirons
You do need a multi. You need a multi weighted one because you want, want a smaller one to penetrate. You want a medium one to kind of help everything else penetrate. And then you want the canopy. The canopy is when people say, oh, it's only got one form of hyaluronic acid that's still going to do you a good job because it goes on the skin and it acts like a canopy, like a circus tent and everything else can then go underneath.
- [29:17]
Jen Sullivan
But have you ever changed your tune on a certain ingredient that you said that's not good now? I think it is. Or the other way around.
- [29:23]
Caroline Hirons
I'm less offended by mineral oil than I used to be.
- [29:26]
Jen Sullivan
Okay.
- [29:27]
Caroline Hirons
I mean I was completely anti. But again, this is because formulas change. And now instead of just having like a big. The reason I don't like mineral oil is because it is not nice to massage with. You get much better massage with a natural plant based oil.
- [29:40]
So there's nothing deep. And like if you use mineral oil.
- [29:43]
Because it's not designed to penetrate, you know, but mineral oil, you know, I've always said that mineral oil can be very good in an occlusive product for people who have like redness or rosacea. And it's a product that a lot of people are not sensitive to. So you'll always find it like Avene. It's full of mineral oil, but it's great for people with sensitive skin. So I'm less argumentative about that because in certain skin types and conditions it can be great.
- [30:04]
You want that barrier.
- [30:05]
You want that barrier. But. And I'll tell you the other reason this comes up more is because in the euro, in Europe, European facials, we massage in the usa. You like machines?
- [30:14]
Jen Sullivan
Not, not this one over here.
- [30:15]
Caroline Hirons
No, I like.
- [30:16]
Jen Sullivan
She loves a lymphatic.
- [30:19]
Caroline Hirons
I'm talking about estheticians.
- [30:20]
Jen Sullivan
Yeah, I see.
- [30:21]
Caroline Hirons
So here, here most of the. And there are exceptions like Nerida, Joy Jordan, Samuel, Rene Rouleau. They're all hands on and don't do a lot of machinery. Whereas, you know, there are others that are much more high tech.
- [30:34]
Jen Sullivan
They want the radio frequency.
- [30:35]
Caroline Hirons
Yeah. Like the Kate Somerville and Joanna Vargas. So I have plenty of time for both. But I always want massage. I'm with you.
- [30:40]
What do you think when you're talking about how in The US it's going more towards like the high tech stuff. What do you think we're missing by not leaning into the like, you know, delicious massages and lymphatic drainage.
- [30:53]
Oh, the connection with your client.
- [30:55]
Besides that though, is there anything like. I mean, I'm saying that it's not wonderful.
- [30:58]
I just think you can't. Unless you do a good thorough massage, you don't get a feeling of where your client's skin is at. That's just for me personally.
- [31:07]
So.
- [31:07]
Okay.
- [31:07]
Marcy, one of our listeners wants to get kind of deep. She says that one of the reasons people respond to you is because you're not like this 22 year old, like, you know, la di da influencer. But you talk about anti aging a lot. But we also are working in like a world that is quite aegis, especially in beauty. Have you felt that at all from your listeners or your.
- [31:27]
No, not from listeners. I've mainly felt it from, well, brands that would just never think of sending me a certain product which is absolutely fine. I probably don't want it. You know, it's more used by the younger influencers who try and dismiss me.
- [31:41]
Jen Sullivan
And as a woman who's 50, do you ever feel offended when people call things anti aging?
- [31:46]
Caroline Hirons
I don't use the term anti aging. I don't use the term in the book.
- [31:48]
Jen Sullivan
And what do you say?
- [31:49]
Caroline Hirons
I use the term to. I use, I use. I have a paragraph saying, look, you will see this word used, but it's used because this is what the industry calls it. And until we find a better term. But I'm pro aging. You know, I'm. In my very, very first YouTube video, I was a guest of Sam and Nick Chapman. I said, aging is a privilege that not everyone gets. And I've never understood this. I'm not anti aging at all. But I think it's the, the aging question is more. I'm more dismissed by people who don't agree with me. Oh, she's old. No, I actually, I would say I'm experienced. But you do. You boo, you know. And also I've got that kind of calm confidence that comes with being like a mother of four who's 50. I don't really give a shit if, you know, Tess, who's currently jumping off all a rock in Bora Bora, says that I'm shit or whatever. I just, you know, But I don't get that much of it because in the UK I'm more seen as like the mother hen. So I have a really good relationship with most of the bloggers in the uk.
- [32:39]
Okay. And we normally ask with what's in your bag. But one of our listeners, Ashley, she wanted to know your hall of fame products for the biggie categories.
- [32:49]
Jen Sullivan
I mean, she could go on your blog, but give us a couple of the best.
- [32:51]
Caroline Hirons
Yeah. So hit us with like, cleanser. What's one of your favorites?
- [32:54]
Jen Sullivan
Hit us with your best shampoo.
- [32:55]
Caroline Hirons
Emma Hardy Moringa Balm Cleanser was the first cleanser. I thought, God, this is amazing. My Pixi Double Cleanse is kind of an easy. An easy one to say just because, you know, I didn't make that product to be like a Rolls Royce of cleansing. It's a good basic and it gets people into the brain of thinking, oh, I take this off with an oil and then I go in with something a bit creamier. Acids. P50. Obviously. There's so many eye cream. Kate Somerville, line repair. Line release. Sorry. Line release is amazing.
- [33:22]
Jen Sullivan
What about mascara?
- [33:24]
Caroline Hirons
Always like Clinique or Estee Lauder. They make great mascaras that are drastically underestimated.
- [33:29]
What about just your like plain old moisturizer?
- [33:32]
Depends on your budget. You know, anything that give us a.
- [33:35]
Cheap one and a high end one.
- [33:38]
Cheap one would be Neutrogena Hydro Boost is a really nice moisturizer, but it won't work if you're using a primer that's made of silicone. Kate Somerville, deep tissue Repair, which is called Peptide Cake now, they had to change. The name is like probably one of my holy grail products.
- [33:54]
Jen Sullivan
We got a low and a high and now we have fun at the very end. So we do this at the end of with everybody. We've got five questions we ask everybody. So the first beauty product that you remember falling in love with when you were wee.
- [34:07]
Caroline Hirons
Little, little Caroline Darphan Purifying Balm.
- [34:11]
Jen Sullivan
Whoa, whoa. Out of the gate, you're using the good stuff. And now what do you do to chill out? Like, what's your relaxation thing?
- [34:18]
Caroline Hirons
Put SVU on.
- [34:19]
Jen Sullivan
Okay.
- [34:20]
Caroline Hirons
Clean my kitchen.
- [34:20]
Jen Sullivan
Special Victims Unit.
- [34:21]
Caroline Hirons
Yep. Clean my kitchen.
- [34:23]
Jen Sullivan
Favorite ice cream.
- [34:25]
Caroline Hirons
I ate a lot of Haagen Dazs Pralines and Cream when I was pregnant.
- [34:30]
Jen Sullivan
Song that pumps you up.
- [34:31]
Caroline Hirons
Never too much. Lisa Vandross.
- [34:33]
Jen Sullivan
And then we always raise a wand, a mascara wand to our favorite products at the end of the show. But what are you raising a wand to right now? It does not have to be a beauty product, but just something that you're obsessed with currently. Schitt's Creek, who did it Just recently, someone else said Dan Levy. That shows a delight.
- [34:49]
Caroline Hirons
Yeah. Schitt's Creek. I am obsessed with E.W. david. Like, constantly. Yeah, I, I, I kind of. Yeah, I get obsessive about things and like, you know, going to gigs. I'm obsessive about going to gigs.
- [35:04]
I heard you're a big Duran Duran fan.
- [35:06]
I am the.
- [35:08]
Jen Sullivan
She's just, Just me. No one else.
- [35:10]
Caroline Hirons
Oprah. I'm going. I'm here in New York because I'm seeing Oprah tomorrow.
- [35:13]
Jen Sullivan
Are you so excited?
- [35:14]
Caroline Hirons
Yeah, I can't think about it.
- [35:15]
Jen Sullivan
Are you going to give her a facial?
- [35:17]
Caroline Hirons
I couldn't. I wouldn't be able to.
- [35:19]
Oh, my God.
- [35:20]
Jen Sullivan
This was super fun. I could talk to you for three more hours. Thank you so much for coming on Saturday.
- [35:24]
Caroline Hirons
Thank you so much.
- [35:25]
Jess
Much.
- [35:25]
Caroline Hirons
This is great.
- [35:25]
Thank you for having me.
- [35:28]
We hope you enjoyed the show.
- [35:30]
Jen Sullivan
It's your reviews and feedback that help us make the podcast even better. Head over to itunes to rate and review us or email your thoughts to infoatmascara.com we also want to answer your.
- [35:40]
Caroline Hirons
Beauty questions and hear what products you love. To share a Razoon product review or to ask a beauty question. Email us at infoatmascara.
- [35:48]
Jen Sullivan
If you send it as a voice memo file, we can even share your voice on the podcast. You can also do that by leaving us a voice message. Our phone number in the United States is 646-481-8182.
- [35:59]
Caroline Hirons
Thanks so much for listening.
- [36:05]
Unknown
When you think of hot, you might think about the tragic time you ate too much wasabi or about getting into your car on a summer day when it feels more like stepping into a sauna. But heat can work in your face, like during Verizon Red Hot deal days. Get hundreds of hot deals on all your favorites, like iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence, Apple Watch Series 10, and iPad. On any plan only until May 28th. For new and existing customers, offer available on MyPlan only at Verizon.
- [36:35]
Paige DeSorbo
Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. Real talk. If there's one store that I absolutely love walking around, it's Sephora. It's my total guilty pleasure. They have amazing brands that other people don't have, and I find something great every time I walk in and there's literally one down the street from me, so I do that a lot. It's so fun to shop in the store and online and the products are just too good. No regrets ever. For example, one of my favorite beauty brands is makeup by Mario, who just launched his new lip gloss that I absolutely love. So the next time you're in the market for great beauty, shop all the hottest products and brands only at Sephora.
- [37:13]
Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. Dad, let's talk about an elite green flag being a cat dad. Temptations, America's number one cat treat brand, is making 2025 the year of the Cat Dad. And honestly, about time. Whether he's coordinating snack time with the meow schedule or just vibing with his tabby, Temptation treats make cat dads even more irresistible to their cats and to us. For more information about Temptations Brand Cat Dads, or to learn more about the brand, visit temptationtreats.com and don't forget to share your own catdad sightings on social.
- [37:48]
We'll be scrolling.