Mental Health & Beauty with Dr. Afiya Mbilishaka

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fat Mascara – Episode on Mental Health & Beauty with Dr. Afia Mbilishaka

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Fat Mascara, hosts Jennifer Sullivan and Jessica Matlin delve deep into the intricate relationship between mental health and the beauty industry. Featuring Dr. Afia Mbilishaka—a therapist, consultant, research scientist, hair historian, and hairstylist—the conversation explores how hair care professionals can play a pivotal role in supporting mental well-being.

Dr. Afia Mbilishaka’s Background

Dr. Afia Mbilishaka brings a unique blend of expertise to the table. Growing up in a supportive, professional family in Long Island, New York, she was inspired by her mother's nurturing hair care routines. As the youngest of four siblings, Dr. Afia fondly recalls her mother's empowering approach to styling her hair, which fostered a sense of agency and self-esteem from a young age (07:43).

Her academic journey took a decisive turn during her freshman year at the University of Pennsylvania, where an engaging sociology and psychology professor ignited her passion for the field. This inspiration led her to Howard University, where she earned a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology, focusing on Black mental health disparities (12:06).

The Connection Between Hair and Mental Health

Dr. Afia emphasizes that hair serves as a complex language system, conveying personal, cultural, and emotional narratives. She explains, “Our hair can express parts of our religious, spiritual beliefs... it can communicate our relationship status... that hair is a conduit to the spiritual realm” (15:27). This profound connection makes hair care sessions uniquely positioned to act as informal mental health check-ins.

Overview of Psychotherapy

To bridge the gap between hair care and mental health, Dr. Afia founded Psychotherapy, a company dedicated to training hair care professionals in basic mental health support. The program includes a 12-hour certification process covering the history of hair, recognizing mental health symptoms in communities of color, and developing micro-counseling skills such as active listening and safely referring clients to professional therapists (15:58).

Cultural Significance of Hair

Throughout history, hair has held significant cultural and spiritual importance across various societies. Dr. Afia shares insights into numerous hair rituals:

• Yoruba of Nigeria: Hairstyles signify marital status, career, and personal identity. Specific braiding techniques are employed to convey these aspects (23:35).
• Native Americans: Long hair connects individuals to nature and spirituality. European colonization disrupted these traditions, leading to cultural disconnection (25:16).
• Maasai Warriors: Hair growth and rituals mark a warrior’s initiation and their transition out of warfare (27:06).

These rituals underscore the deep psychological and communal ties people have with their hair.

Current Issues: Crown Act and Hairstyle Discrimination

Discrimination based on hairstyles remains a pervasive issue. Dr. Afia discusses the CROWN Act (Create a Respectful and Open World for Natural Hair), which aims to prohibit discrimination based on hair texture and protective hairstyles. Although passed in 18-19 states, it faces resistance at the federal level, particularly in sectors like the military and educational institutions (28:14).

Dr. Afia has actively testified in various state legislatures to advocate for the CROWN Act, highlighting the psychological impact of hairstyle discrimination and its roots in historical prejudices (29:26).

Dr. Afia’s Advocacy and Collaborations

Beyond advocacy, Dr. Afia collaborates with brands like Maui Moisture, which provided a transformative $100,000 donation to support her mission of integrating mental health into the beauty industry. This funding enables the certification of more hairstylists, amplifying her impact by reaching thousands of clients through these trained professionals (45:00).

She envisions future projects, including wellness retreats for beauty professionals, to address the emotional labor and burnout experienced in the industry, especially highlighted during the COVID-19 pandemic (48:53).

Personal Insights and Self-Care Practices

Dr. Afia shares her personal self-care routines, emphasizing the importance of rituals in maintaining mental health:

• Gratitude Journaling: She practices a five-minute gratitude journal each night, focusing on positive aspects of her day to foster a positive mindset (63:32).
• Essential Oils: Utilizing scents like lavender and ylang-ylang to create a calming environment during therapy sessions (59:34).
• Physical Activity: Enjoying walks in nature, particularly during spring, to connect with her surroundings and relax (61:06).

Conclusion

This episode of Fat Mascara sheds light on the vital intersection of beauty and mental health, highlighting how hair care professionals can serve as frontline supporters in mental wellness. Dr. Afia Mbilishaka’s innovative approach through Psychotherapy not only bridges professional disciplines but also fosters a more inclusive and supportive beauty industry.

Notable Quotes

1. Empowering Hair Care:

   • “Even being like 6 years old, my mom's like, how many braids do you want? And for me, that was like the most exciting question to answer that I got to choose the number of braids.” (07:43)

2. Hair as a Language System:

   • “Our hair can express parts of our religious, spiritual beliefs... hair is a conduit to the spiritual realm.” (15:27)

3. Cultural Rituals:

   • “In Native American communities, hair is so sacred because it's the highest point on our entire bodies and therefore the most connected to the divine.” (21:52)

4. CROWN Act Advocacy:

   • “It's against the law to discriminate against people based on their hairstyle, particularly in schools, for employment, and even housing opportunities.” (28:14)

5. Impact of Maui Moisture Donation:

   • “I never had people back me financially in this way to do the work that I'm doing...certify 100 more hairstylists in these techniques can have such a broad impact.” (45:57)

6. Self-Care through Gratitude:

   • “Having avocado toast is sometimes one of them.” (64:35)

Resources Mentioned

• Psychotherapy Website: psychotherapy.org
• CROWN Act Information: Legislative updates available in the podcast and related show notes.

Final Thoughts

Fat Mascara continues to push the envelope by addressing significant yet often overlooked intersections within the beauty industry. By featuring experts like Dr. Afia Mbilishaka, the podcast not only educates its listeners but also inspires actionable change towards a more empathetic and mentally supportive beauty culture.

Transcript

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[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jess]

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[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jess]

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[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jess]

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[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jess]

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[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jess]

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[Jen Sullivan]

Hello everyone. Welcome to Fat Mascara. I'm Jen Sullivan. I have to say I'm in the virtual studio here. Well, my home studio. I just sprayed a whole bunch of perfumes that I'm testing out for a story. So if I get woozy in the middle of it, that's why I need to ventilate. But I can't ventilate while I'm recording. And we're recording right now. It is Friday. Welcome. We have an amazing episode on mental health, a very important topic. Before we get into it, why don't you help my mental health and go over to Apple and give us a review or some stars. If you like the podcast that helps us become more discoverable with other people, you can also review or comment on episodes on Spotify. Sometimes I like to read those. And actually since our I guess that was two episodes ago, we had a listener call in. She was in the last months of pregnancy for a third kid. Just needed a pick me up. Like what can I do? What can I smear on? How can I just feel better? We have gotten so many responses from the fat mascara fam for this one. They're just all so good. I'll read a couple now. We'll keep reading them as they come in. And yes, of course everybody's texting me and emailing me and not leaving a voicemail. Cause no one likes to leave a voicemail. I get it, that's fine. But Jodi McKay left a comment on the episode on Spotify and she said her postpartum trick sunscreen, eyebrows brushed up and a slicked back bun. It sounds like that meme with the bag and the slick back bun. Anyway, eyebrows brushed up is a really good one too. And she finishes her comment by saying oh, who has time to wash their hair? I hear you. Monica has a tip for postpartum sticks. I had a K Beauty serum stick on my breastfeeding cart that I'd apply during midnight feeds. Woke up glowing. That's interesting. If you're feeding and you're sitting there anyway with nothing else to do, maybe there's a free hand and you can be putting on your K beauty serum stick. Wait, now I gotta message Monica and find out which one we're gonna do that. And the last one I have is from listener Jamie. You know who you are, Jamie. She texted. I can't underestimate the importance of an amazing concealer. My bags had bags and those bags had bags. Towards the end of my pregnancy, she says, because I wasn't really sleeping and I got up peeing so often, the concealer was a game changer. Personally, she loves the Jones Road concealer. Easy to use, blends well, doesn't crack her crease. Thank you, Jamie. Thank you, everybody. It's just a few comments there and like I said, please go to Apple and leave us a review if you have time. Okay, let's get into our episode. Like I said, we're talking about mental health. So important right now. I feel like everywhere I turn there's a new story about the state of our collective mental health. Rare Beauty just finished its fourth annual Mental health Summit. New research showing teens with mental health conditions are more affected by social media more negatively than their peers. And there's so many beauty brands that are making mental health the center of their, like, philanthropic efforts. I thought, what better time than now to replay this chat with one of my favorite guests we've ever had on Dr. Afia and Billishaka. Dr. Afia Abilishaka is a therapist, a consultant, a research scientist, speaker, hair historian, and a hair stylist. She has a private therapy practice in Washington, D.C. she's also the founder of Psychotherapy, which she's going to tell you all about. She's a graduate of University of Pennsylvania. She has a PhD in clinical psychology from Howard University. And did I mention she's also a hairstylist? I mean, what. What a resume. Please, everybody, welcome to the studio. Dr. Ambila Sh. Dr. Afiya Mvilishaka. Welcome to Fat Mascara.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, my God. I feel like we have so much to talk about, so many interests in common. I love your work. Also, what an interesting field of study you've concentrated on. We're gonna get into all of that but first I have to get to know you a little bit. So tell me, where did you grow up? What's your family like?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Okay, so I grew up in Long Island, New York. My family definitely was the Huxtables from the Cosby Show. I was Rud, So kind of this black professional family, and everybody's doing great things. I even had a sister at Princeton, just like on the Cosby Show. So this sort of highly successful, cute family that I've come from.

[Jen Sullivan]

And how many brothers and sisters or just that sister?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

So I'm the youngest of four. So I have two brothers and one sister.

[Jen Sullivan]

Full on Huxtable vibes. Okay.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Definitely now you have the.

[Jen Sullivan]

You have. Part of your career has to do with the beauty industry and beauty a little bit. But, like, growing up, what was the first beauty related experience you remember?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

I would say my earliest beauty memories include my mom doing my hair on Sunday nights. That was wash day. And so being the youngest of four children, this was probably the one time of the week where I had that one on one time and attention for my mom. And so she really went hardcore into this wash day routine where she would fill up the bathtub, clean me up, but like, really do an intense scrub of my scalp and detangling of my hair and then getting out of the tub. She was very, very empowering of me in terms of how I wanted to look. So Even being like 6 years old, my mom's like, how many braids do you want? And for me, that was like the most exciting question to answer that I got to choose the number of braids. So sometimes I'm like 7 or 4. And she'd be able to create these sort of fractals of braids on my head and as an opportunity for me to look in the mirror after, like, I love it. So I think that that's very early positive memories that I had in getting my hair done by my own personal hairstylist, my mom.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, that's sweet. And I feel like you're like maybe an 80s 90s babies. Please tell me about the accessories. What were we closing off the braids with? Did we have the rainbow barrette pack? The little balls? What were we doing?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Of course. And so I got to pick the color of those too. So in terms of the. We called them bubbles, right? So putting them on the top and on the bottom of my hair. But to coordinate for the week that if it sort of a pink week, my mom would put pink barrettes and pink bubbles in there. Usually she braided my hair down to the end, so. And it didn't get loose, so we didn't always need to have the bottom accessory. But definitely at the top. Bubbles usually a pain.

[Jen Sullivan]

Remember how hot they were, those two? Like they look like marbles. And you'd wrap and then you had to pop the one inside the other.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

That's what it is. That's what looking back, how come that didn't hurt my head when I was sleeping, now that I'm thinking about it? Cause I always had them in there. But maybe I just had a cool sleeping style that it didn't bother me to sleep in those nights.

[Jen Sullivan]

I used to love the sound they made, you know, when they would click together. Yes, very satisfying. So you have this lovely experience with hair. Being empowering gives you a sense of agency as like a little six year old who doesn't get a lot of power in her life usually. That's wonderful. And then like intimacy with your mom, right?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Exactly. And again, positive, affirming, gentle. My mom wasn't aggressive, I wasn't tender headed. But she wasn't like hitting me with a comb or a brush, which is a lot of people's stories. But she used it as a time to be gentle and nurturing, so it was positive.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, so we're getting back to the hair because you are a hairstylist yourself now, but clearly you were like overachiever. Your whole family. You went to study psychology, have multiple degrees. What interested you in psychology then?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Okay, so I had no idea what I wanted to major in after my first semester at Penn. So I went in originally wanting to be a dentist and took all like these math and science classes my first semester, and I hated them all. And so I did something pretty risky where at the end of my first semester in college, I said, I don't want to be a dentist anymore. And I let my college roommate pick all of my classes for the second semester of my freshman year. And so she put me into a sociology class, an intro to psychology, a class called Black Women in Liter in, I think Spanish or something like that. And taking Intro to Psych. Probably had a hundred, no, 500 students in it. I'm just picturing how big the lecture hall was. And I had Dr. Chate, he was from Australia, and he cursed like the entire class and was basically a standup comedian because he had the wireless mic and he'd be showing clips and making jokes that I was so entertained and it made me pay attention. And I could see psychology in like everything. And so just ended up taking more and more Psychology classes and falling in love with it. But again, I really do credit that professor, who I know I never spoke in the class, so he doesn't even know who I am. But I remember him just in terms of modeling how fun learning about psychology could be and how it translates to so many different areas of the human existence. So that's probably an influential piece of how I arrived to this career.

[Jen Sullivan]

And you went on to keep studying, right? Did you get a master's in that? Yeah.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

So what I ended up doing, because I noticed that there were these huge disparities when it came to the field of psychology and the inclusion of black people. And so I ended up minoring in Africana studies. And so I wanted to go to a school where it would really fuse Africana studies with psychology. So I chose to go to Howard University. So they specialize in Black mental health. And so I ended up applying and getting into a doctoral program without taking any gap year or anything. And so it fused together a master's degree and PhD in clinical psychology.

[Jen Sullivan]

Where does hair play into this, by the way? Because, like, obviously I'm having you on fat mascara because you have this focus in hair now. When did that start?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Well, I've always been doing hair. I always loved doing my little cousin's hair at family cookouts. My sister was probably my best hair model. I would get her ready for dates or going out on the town. And I was like a teenager, but doing my sister's hair, who was in her 20s at the time. And I just loved it to. Then when I went to college, I was known as the dorm hairstylist. So I lived in W.E.B. du Bois College house, which was majority African American student dorm.

[Jen Sullivan]

First of all, I have to pause. We both went to the same school. I had that psych intro. Like, as you're saying this, I could picture your dorm. I know exactly where you lived on campus. I know that lecture hall for psychology. I think that was my original professor, too. I'm sorry, it's too much. I'm loving it. Yeah. Okay, so let's go to Du Bois house. Let's go.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

And in there, it was just a place to connect with other students. Right. In terms of people would have a special date or go to some formal or the big football game because it was male and female students that they would come to my dorm room and I'd create braided styles or curl things. But I was not business minded. I never charged anyone. I just like the creative and communal aspect of doing hair that, you know, people were Spilling all the tea to me too. I knew everything that was happening on campus because I was doing everyone's hair. And so it was a really good opportunity to connect. And so I remember being on the phone one day with my aunt Brenda. She's now an ancestor. And I was telling her, I don't know if I want to continue on with psychology or pursue a career in hair. And she said to me, well, why can't you do both? Now, I don't think she was telling me to do both at the same exact time, but that's the way I interpreted and thought, hmm, I can do hair and therapy together. And so that was sort of the birth of integrating the psychology and beauty piece together.

[Jen Sullivan]

It couldn't have been that perfect that you like, that sounds like kismet. Brenda was like psychic, basically.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

She was my godmother and my aunt. So let's go with that. That she was psychic. I'll lean into that. That she. She knew my destiny. She understood my destiny in that way.

[Jen Sullivan]

And so for you, obviously, everybody's had the experience. They've sat in the chair of a hairstylist and felt like a release. She's gonna touch me. That touch feels good. I'm gonna unload. Cause we all unload on our hairstylists. But like, what is that connection between mental health and hair? You've gone on to study this more closely. It's not just like someone sits in my chair and I hear all the problems for you. What is the connection between mental health and hair care?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Well, I definite that hair is a complex language system. And so as a talk therapist, I'm very mindful of what our hair can express. Right. Our hair can express parts of our religious, spiritual beliefs. Hair can communicate, maybe our careers, hair can communicate our relationship status, things like that, that maybe we're not as open in speaking about. Psychotherapy is specifically using hair as an entry point into mental health care.

[Jen Sullivan]

This is your company, right? Psychotherapy?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yes, it is.

[Jen Sullivan]

Tell me all about it.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Okay, so with psychotherapy, I train hair care professionals and other community members and therapists how to connect hair and mental health. So I developed this 12 hour certification process where I guide hair care professionals into understanding the history of our hair, signs and symptoms of mental illness, and especially understanding how they look a little bit different in communities of color. And then also getting into these micro counseling skills in terms of how to assess someone for harm, whether harm to self or other. Also active listening skills, because unfortunately, some hair care professionals just want to automatically give advice before really fully listening to someone. So there, I would say the hardest thing I had to learn as a therapist was how to really listen. And so getting into some of those tools and techniques of active listening, you're great at it, by the way, as an active listener.

[Jen Sullivan]

Thanks.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

And then how to impart information. So in terms of this sounds like depression or this sounds like anxiety, and being able to talk someone through some of this information and then finally how to refer to resources respectfully. How do you actually get someone to see a therapist and work through some of that resistance? Even part of the training, I help hair care professionals navigate websites like Psychology Today or insurance company websites to actually get people connected to a therapist themselves. So it's a lot of moving parts, but very much a mental health first aid piece in terms of almost like taking a CPR class, but for mental health concerns.

[Jen Sullivan]

And how has the response been in the mental health community? Because I imagine since COVID we've all become more exposed, I think, to talk therapy. And it can be easy to say, oh, it's talk therapy, anybody can do it, or you can't do any harm if you're just actively listening to someone. Have you had any pushback from the mental health community? Like, why are you empowering hairstylists with this knowledge? Or are they happy about that?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

I haven't gotten any pushback, only support. Luckily now there have been some professionals, like, be mindful that being a therapist is a very complicated career. I know that. And so I'm very clear in the training. You all are not therapists. You could be psychotherapists, but you're not therapists. Between going to Penn and Howard, that was 10 years that I studied in school to become a clinical psychologist. And so there's no way that I could translate 10 years of study into a 12 hour course. Now there are things that are really key and important that I've been able to translate and transfer. But it's a growing skill set that takes a lot of practice and feedback. So that's even something that I'm adding now to the curriculum to have these weekly check in groups with people who are certified to be able to talk about some of the clients or some of their challenges, where maybe they feel like they could have tried something else to be able to give advice and support to other people doing this work.

[Jen Sullivan]

And why do you think it's important for hairstylists to have this skill set? Like, we also see like a nail tech and we see other people, like, maybe someone comes to walk our dog. We have all these people in our life that we share services with. But why is it this relationship that you feel is the one where you can be the front lines of mental health?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Great question. I do want to acknowledge those other careers should know some mental health information, too, though. Dog walkers need to know it everywhere.

[Jen Sullivan]

We all need this. It's like, I know, we go, we learn math, we learn trigonometry, which we never use again.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Never.

[Jen Sullivan]

Not once in my 12 years of, like, schooling did I learn psychology or therapy or mental health skills.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

No. I think that hair care professionals have a unique relationship with their clients. They are way more trusted by the broader community than therapists. In terms of the people that you trust so deeply, you don't even need to look in the mirror during the process. There's a Ghanaian proverbial that goes, when your sister is your hairdresser, you need no mirror. When your sister is your hairdresser, you need no mirror. And to me, that really speaks to, we trust these people. And even looking back thousands and thousands of years to even ancient Egypt, we find that in order to be a hairstylist, back then, you had to be initiated as a priest, because this was seen as such a sacred role and position that you are touching someone's most sacred part of their body, their head. In a lot of traditional African societies, hair is seen as so sacred because it's the highest point on our entire bodies and therefore the most connected to the divine. Our hair is like an antenna and can pick up on energy. A lot of people are told growing up, don't let anybody touch your hair because it's so sacred and special. And so you really need to trust your hair care professional. And they can see things that we can't see. Right. I cannot look at my own scalp. I've tried. It's very difficult. But they have certain insight and perspective and even access to your ear. Right. To be able to give you certain messages. I've been finding research that says that black women in particular are way more likely to get their hair done than to go to a doctor's appointment. Like maybe going to get their hair done twice a month compared to going to a doctor's office might be once every few years. And to think about that opportunity that's happening to be able to lean in to that care. It's very rare that as adults, we get to be washed and bathed by someone else or taken care of in such an intimate way. So I think that people really rely on the nurturing aspect of hair care professionals during their service.

[Jen Sullivan]

You mentioned some of the history of this trust relationship in different cultures. I imagine that's like cultures all around the world. There's a connection between the divine and hair. Have you studied that at all?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

So I'm getting a little bit into it. I do want to label myself as a hair historian, but I've definitely seen a lot of hair information. In India, in particular, the people who are considered to be sort of these sages or gurus will not cut their hair. They'll, you know, almost grow locks. They won't comb it. And they say that hair is a conduit to the spiritual realm. So that if your hair is long, particularly, then that kind of attracts and extends your antenna to pick up on things. Or even. I've heard for Native Americans back in, like, the 1800s that they grew their hair really long as a part of connecting to their. To nature and their environment. It actually could help them with hunting. And so when Europeans came and began actually chopping off the hair of Native American people, they lost some of their connection to nature and couldn't hunt as well. So there is a lot of information out there, pre colonial time, that actually speaks to how rituals are so embedded into hair grooming and hairstyling techniques from birth all the way through death.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah, like, okay, you've got. Rastafarian culture has a really big connection there. Then I was like, Latter day Saints, a lot of that community grow their hair really long. I bet if you really look into this, it's everywhere around the world, People have had this type of connection. But so that trust that you were talking about between the person that touches your hair and styles you, it creates such an intimacy. I'm, like, so curious right now. Like, back in the day when you might not have the answer to this, but, like, you didn't have a mirror that you sat in front of, but it seems like a hairstylist would always be behind the person. Is that right? Like, have you ever seen any, like, community where you braid hair from the front or style hair from the front?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

I actually have for the year of.

[Jen Sullivan]

Tell me everything.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Tell me of Nigeria. Yeah. For the Yoruba of Nigeria, each hairstyle can basically, again, communicate something about the person, Whether you're married, not married, whether you have a certain career. And so there's a braiding technique where the stylist will be seated in a chair, and the person getting their hair groomed sits on the ground facing them and puts their head down. So this allows for braiding to start from sort of the nape of the neck to be able to braid the hair to the front of the hairline. And so these different styles, again, are communicating something about that person. But it's actually easier on the hairstylist's hands to do that. Technique versus bending. I'll tell you, working in the salon, it is very physically labor intensive. My obliques often hurt because of moving around. But having the stylist seated and the person getting their hair done on the floor kind of is more ergonomic to some degree and allows for ease. And the person can even fall asleep on the stylist's lap, if that's even a choice. But there are so many rules and taboos I've even found amongst the Yoruba people, in terms of every single girl is taught how to braid hair. But anyone who shows particular talent becomes the master braider for the community. And there's different rules. The stylist shouldn't wash their hands immediately following the braiding or hair care process, because you could be washing someone's good fortune. Or you shouldn't bargain the price with a hairstylist because if you don't pay her enough that you'll lose some of your destiny because she keeps it in her hands.

[Jen Sullivan]

We need to spread that one around America. These are so. And these styles that you're talking about, you mentioned the Yoruba community, but have you seen that in other cultures where, okay, you can't have that particular style until you're married or if you're a doctor, you're going to have these buns or these braids? Do you have any examples of that?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yes, yes, I like to study them of today's Kenya and Tanzania. They have really amazing hair rituals. So even from birth, about seven to 10 days after a baby is born, they will shave the baby's hair and the mother's hair. This is signaling that this woman just had a baby and she needs extra care and attention and support. So people who just had babies are rocking the bald, bald look, but it's.

[Jen Sullivan]

A signal to the community, like, look out for this person.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Exactly. And even a lot of West African groups, when someone is grieving, grieving, they shave someone's hair. Again, it's a signaling this person needs extra care and attention. Even if the hair is not properly groomed and is becoming matted, that is actually seen as a mental health concern, that this person needs more care, more attention than previously. But even going back to the Maasai, they have very powerful warriors. The Maasai warriors are known throughout the globe as being extremely strategic and intentional. But they also, as part of their initiation process, have to grow locks. So they have these sort of micro tiny locks that they grow. And they also have to dye their hair a bright red color different. Using different paint and even clays from the earth to get this bright red color. And once they have decided to end their time as a warrior, they have to get their hair shaved. So it's kind of a ritual of disconnecting from that identity. So I just always think about if we did this for our warriors in the US If. If that they had. I guess they had buzz cuts, Right?

[Jen Sullivan]

In a way, we do.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yeah.

[Jen Sullivan]

I was just gonna say, I've seen, you know, you go in the military, you shave your head.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yep.

[Jen Sullivan]

I don't know. That might be a power thing by the military to say, you're all the same. You know, they're taking away your power.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Almost conformity. Yeah, I guess. But it's a ritual.

[Jen Sullivan]

What does this say?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yeah. A ritual, nonetheless, that you are part of this group. Right. Because military culture is very specific, and there's a whole mindset and ideology that I think does come along with the hair. I know that there were so many regulations related to even how African American women could wear their hair up till 2015, that people weren't allowed to wear braids or locks or twists or fro.

[Jen Sullivan]

In the military, you mean?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yeah, it was against code, but now kind of they were saying it's a safety issue. But even thinking about what cultural hairstyles can be worn still being in the military. So it's a lot of politics related to hair.

[Jen Sullivan]

Well, that's like a coded aggression. We've seen that in other places in American society, obviously, haven't we? Like that. I'm gonna dictate your hair. I'm gonna pretend it's about, I don't know, sanitary or maybe there's always, like some excuse of what it's about, but it's like a coded form of discrimination. No, absolutely.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

And that's why we look at it.

[Jen Sullivan]

Maybe not that coded.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

It's pretty explicit. Right. When we look at even some of these school policies and dress codes, that it will be very explicit that certain braids or twists can't be worn. And so the Crown act developed in 2019, so standing for creating a respectful and open world for natural hair. And it first passed in the state of California with Senator Holly Mitchell. But I think at this point, only 18 or 19 states out of all 50 have passed this. That it's against the law to discriminate against people based on their hairstyle, particularly in schools for employment and even housing opportunities. But again, we still have further to go. I know it passed in the House of Representatives, but not in the Senate. And just even navigating that, there's even resistance to saying you can't fire someone for wearing braids. I don't know why that's an issue. But it's pretty ongoing, this challenge to protect these cultural hairstyles that's healthy for tightly coiled hair.

[Jen Sullivan]

And you've done some advocating on behalf of the Crown act, right?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yes, I have. It's interesting. I never imagined that I'd be testifying in these spaces.

[Jen Sullivan]

Where were you testifying? Like, you went to talk to legislators?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yes, I did. So I went and testified as a subject matter expert in New Jersey, state senate, Maryland, Wisconsin. It didn't pass in Wisconsin. In, I think, Delaware, Connecticut. And some of this was during COVID so I was able to zoom in. But before that was in person going up on a microphone and having people ask questions about the psychological significance of hair discrimination, ultimately in the history of our hair. So I thought that was a pretty interesting way to translate some of the stuff I've done in the salon to then policy that impacts the nation.

[Jen Sullivan]

Well, these rituals that you've been talking about, sure there's some negative sides to some of these rituals, but, like making everybody shave their head in the US Military. But there's an importance to rituals even. There's an importance to that. The group thinking, like, you're now part of this group. But what can, like, hair rituals that you might have with, like, your mom, for example, the Sundays together. What can they do for us, like, mentally besides just altering our appearance? Because I imagine you left on Sunday evenings. You were probably in a pretty good space, right?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yeah. I'm just thinking about how critical it is that people feel taken care of and important. There's a lot of research that is coming out that there's an emotional transformation that happens when you get your hair done, that there are studies, pre and post tests of a haircut and how that can actually lighten the load and even things like, I have a research study called Strands of Intimacy, where I found that about like 96% of women, when they have a change in their relationship status, will change their hair, whether getting a haircut, breakup bangs. Yes, exactly. You got it. Changing the hair color so that these are big ways that we cope. Right. We actually use our hair as a coping strategy and express to people that we're going through a change.

[Jen Sullivan]

Or is that a healthy Thing. Cause you see, joke about, like, don't cut off your hair if you have a breakup or whatever, but I don't know, it sounds like that might be a way to handle some of the stress, Right.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

I think our hair is the part of our body that is the most easily manipulated. Right. We can't change our skin day to day or our facial features, our weight, but we actually can change our hair day to day. And so I think sometimes our hair holds a lot of our emotional energy. It reflects our mood. And so that since it's so easily shifting or able to be manipulated by our hands, that I think it reflects probably our wellness more than any other body part.

[Jen Sullivan]

Because I've seen research, too, about when people have alopecia or hair growth problems, how that can even lead to depression. And that's the flip side of what you're talking about. It can give you this power. But when you have problems with your hair, that really affects you emotionally, too. And that might help explain it, right?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yeah. People go through a grieving process when they have hair loss. Even a study came out by Dr. Yolanda Lindsey in 2019 that said about 47% of Black women will have hair loss at some point in their lifetime. 47%. And so to be able to cope with and manage that, some of it is caused by things like traction alopecia in terms of. Of creating hairstyles that are too tight, but also our factors of hormones, genetics, childbirth, malnutrition, stress, all factoring in. And so just even recognizing that some of those health disparities that exist within communities can even be manifested through hair and hair health and then hair loss.

[Jess]

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[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jess]

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[Jess]

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[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jen Sullivan]

So when you do psychotherapy and you train stylists, do you also talk about this side of it? So they're not just looking for signs of mental health issues or perhaps abusive relationships, but like when they have hair loss, how to help their clients cope emotionally.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Exactly. I've been able to do some hair loss support groups to even be able to navigate that topic and train hair care professionals to support clients with that. Again, identity shift in terms of what happens when you don't match up with your ideal image in your head or how you looked in the past and how to cope with that.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh yeah, it's funny. We're sitting here talking about how a stylist can help their client and I think about the reverse, which is like, oh my God, how draining you're a stylist. To sit there you are with someone maybe six hours depending on the style they want, whatever, and they're unloading their problems on you. I want to be and I want our fat mascara listeners to be like better clients. Like what's a healthy hairstylist client relationship look like to you? And where does it get unhealthy?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Good question. Good question. Yeah. I do wanna be clear. I'll say this very clearly. Do not expect your stylist to be your therapist. Right. In terms of being mindful that you can get a therapist and have a hairstylist.

[Jen Sullivan]

But I'm laughing because it's like, we do. Okay, yes. We will not. Let's not do that.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

I think that it's okay to operate and have questions about hair health or to ask your stylist, how are things looking back there? And I have a stylist that I've been seeing for years, and she will look at my hair. And she said, afia, you're not drinking enough water. Why aren't you drinking enough water? I'm like, oh, because I'm seeing so many clients and doing these things and I forget to bring my water. Or she'll say, like, have you been eating enough fruits and vegetables? She can tell that by looking at my hair. So I think that it's fine to ask them if they see something or notice something about are your parts getting wider or noticing thinning and things like that, or again, the health of your hair. But I think that it's fair to tell stories, but maybe not stories that are maybe too traumatic for the hair care space. I don't want to say that there's a limitation, but. But being respectful to potential boundaries. I know on the reverse. And I encourage stylists to say, ask their clients, do they want a talkative service or a quiet service? But I think maybe even as a client we can ask, are you in the mood to talk today or are you prepared or open? Are you in a position to hear me tell some stories today? That could be a good question to see where the stylist line is at, if they have the capacity.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah, you're paying to get your hair done. You're not paying for, like, a new best friend slash therapist for the next however many hours. But we just to make that assumption, don't we?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yes, yes, I think. But I think something happens. I really do think something happens. When we get our hair washed, there's like a release, like there's a detoxification that I think there's something about. Maybe it pulls us back to these early memories of childhood, of getting our hair washed and bathed. I think that there is something that's happening that releases emotions. I've seen people cry during their hair washing process. Again, that particular phase and all the steps and Stages of getting your hair done, I think is quite emotional. The washing part.

[Jen Sullivan]

Yeah. And there's something about scalp stimulation. It's funny. Cause I was thinking about. I just love watching people go to those Japanese head spas. I've never had one. I really want to go. But just watching someone get their hair brushed or a scalp scrub, it's like those mirror neurons fire up and you feel the release too. So, I mean, imagine being on the receiving end of that. It's even a stronger feeling. And, yeah, I guess just being aware. And you and I talking about this makes people be aware when they step into that salon space of like, okay, you know, this is an intimate space and treat it with respect in a way. So now tell me, we talked about your psychology career. Then you're mentioning you're a hairstylist. But, like, did that ever become official? Did you go to cosmetology school? Do you still see hair clients? These aren't just your college, like, dorm mates anymore. When did you become a professional hairstylist?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yeah, great question. So I did go on to graduate school, got my Master's and my PhD. I ended up working at Columbia University's counseling center for a few years. And then I got a position as a faculty member to teach. And it wasn't until I became a professor, had my own private practice, that I then went to hair school. So I decided to go to hair school that specialized in natural hair. I chose not to go through a cosmetology program, officially, which I probably will end up doing soon, But I chose the natural hair route in terms of I didn't want to give chemical relaxers. I wasn't interested in using, like, harsh chemicals, both for my own health and my client's health. So I tend to do more styles that are like, braids and twists and locks. Locks, those sort of styles, instead of using excessive heat. So really focusing on hair health and supporting people through a healthy hair journey, which cosmetologists can do. But I just, again, chose to go more of the natural hairstylist route. And so I had been working for years and years at N Natural Hair Studio in Silver Spring, Maryland. And so it would be pretty funny when people would contact me through social media or email me and say, I need an appointment. And I would often be confused, like, for therapy or for hair. And so I always would get confused or both, like, and so it definitely was something to navigate because I was going in between seeing my therapy clients and running off then to the salon to see hair clients, all within the same Day. Now it's a very similar process that happens, but that's kind of how my journey has looked. Ever since the pandemic, I have not been doing hair in the salon. I made the choice to be a telehealth specialists. So we need you.

[Jen Sullivan]

Thank you. We need more of you. Right. That's what I've been reading about. Like, the shortage of people with your skills.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yes. And we are experiencing burnout. We are experiencing burnout because I have never been so popular in my entire life until the pandemic in terms of therapy appointments, because in the past, you know, people would come and find me on Psychology today, but when. March 2020 to present. I. People are always trying to book appointments. I have wait lists, things like that. To the point now I have expanded my private practice to hire other therapists because just the need outweighs my ability to see people. I will never see more than 20 people a week in terms of therapy. That would overload me. Now I'm trying to delegate and spread and have a staff to be able to support and give the highest quality care and attention to clients.

[Jen Sullivan]

So if you're not in the salon anymore, you still have this connection to the hair industry. I know you're working with Maui Moisture. How did that come about? And how does that play into, like, your clinical practice?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Great question. All right. This was a miracle that happened to me with Maui Moisture. So I have just been consistently doing research. I have a research lab, the psychotherapy research lab, and publishing things and posting on my Instagram account, you know, just sort of fun facts about hair and mental health. And so I got an email from a rep of Maui Moisture in January saying that they wanted to give me a donation to support the training of hair care professionals in mental health. And so I'm like, oh, okay, thank you. That would be great. And then they followed up with, like, a team call, just, you know, sharing information. And then they sent an email. They said, we've decided how much we want to donate. They said, we'd like to donate $100,000. I not only screamed, I sobbed. I'm like, little old me. How did you even find, like, just by me posting fun facts about hair and mental health?

[Jen Sullivan]

No grant approval process. It just came to you.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

It was the gift that I could have never even imagined. I could have never, a year ago, imagined that someone would email me saying they wanted to get. Give me six figures to support my mission of mental health and wellness through hair. Never could have imagined that. And so it has been so affirming to me because I never had people back me financially in this way to do the work that I'm doing. So just even being able to certify 100 more hairstylists in these techniques can have such a broad impact to all of their clients. Because we know that if each of these people are seeing, seeing thousands of people a year and they have this skill set that then there's this trickle down effect. So I'm super excited and so grateful for Maui Moisture in terms of even amplifying my voice because again, as a psychologist, we're not taught to even talk that much. We're great listeners. And so to be able to amplify my voice and information and my unique skill set of hair and mental health has been so, so, so helpful and amazing.

[Jen Sullivan]

So if a stylist is listening, we have lots, actually we have lots of listeners who work in the beauty industry and salons and things like that. And they want to do you call them hair pists? I don't know is their name once you get a certification.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yep, certified.

[Jen Sullivan]

So if someone was interested, where could they go to be like, I want to be part of one of your learning sessions or I want to, you know, get this training. What can they do?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

They can go to my website, psychotherapy.org maybe we could put that in the notes.

[Jen Sullivan]

But yeah, put it in the show notes. Yes, yes, she knows how podcasts work.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

I even had a podcast for a short period. It was called psychotherapy with Dr. Afia. I had about 20 episodes.

[Jen Sullivan]

I missed that. I did all this research on you. How did I miss that?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Well, it was just in 2019, it was very laborious for me to manage being a professor, having a private practice.

[Jen Sullivan]

Thank you. Thank you for understanding.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yes, it was short lived and my sound engineer, it was intense. Even checking out our Instagram psychotherapy. And we actually have the listing of these monthly intensives. So they have been virtual, mostly because of the pandemic. And it allows people to not have to travel and book a flight and get a hotel to get this certification process that it has been all online. But as things are opening up. Right, we're outside again, I do plan on having in person events and so I'm hoping to use some of that funding from Maui Moisture to have a highly curated, beautiful wellness retreat for people in the beauty industry. Because earlier I was saying that people in healthcare are extremely burned out. But I actually would argue that people in the beauty industry might be even more burned out because for example, for me, I never went back to my Therapy office. I had an office that was about two blocks from the White House. And I just never went back after, I think, ended my lease in July of 2020. But hair care professionals remember at a point during the pandemic that people were, like, protesting, like, open up barbershops and hair salons. And I actually saw that hair care professionals were having to do way more labor, emotional labor, for those people who had just experienced death and loss or loss of a job or loss of a home, all these different changes that they were doing more than handholding. They had to physically touch people throughout the pandemic and support people who were grieving and stressed. And so I really want to take care of beauty professionals that have become exhausted from doing this. This work. For the past.

[Jen Sullivan]

I'm thinking about, like, my dentist and my hairstylist were like, the first people I saw other than the people in my household after the quarantine or, like, still during the quarantine.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

And.

[Jen Sullivan]

And we were messed up then. It was all awkward. I was unloading weird socialness on them, like, because I forgot how to be so Matt. I can't even imagine them having, like, 10, 20 of these people a week who are relearning how to be social creatures right in their hands. You know what I mean?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Exactly. Yeah. Relearning how to be a human being, like, and interact with other social creatures is a. Is a thing. So. Yeah. That you're highlighting exactly what the experience was for them and even being cautious and not wanting to get sick themselves. Right. And doing all those.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh, of course.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Remember the cleaning procedures that they used to have to go through and, like, disinfecting the salon space after each person, or even only being able to see one person at a time. Just all these different things that they had to go through physically and emotionally.

[Jen Sullivan]

We're resilient, though, aren't we?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

We are.

[Jen Sullivan]

I'm looking at humans. I just mean, like, talked to you maybe two years ago or three years ago, we both would have been in a weird place, I imagine. And here we are, like, okay, we're getting through it, and you're giving people tools to get through it, all the kind of hard stuff in their life.

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[Jess]

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[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jen Sullivan]

I do have to ask about hair. I mean you're still a stylist. Can we talk about products and beauty stuff too? You're bringing a look. You got a red lip on for me. Great hair, obviously. Who does your hair now?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

I got my hair done a few days ago because I turned 43 days ago. Happy birthday. Thanks. So this is 40th birthday brunch. Hair that's a few days old. But the person who styled my hair is certified in psychotherapy. So I think that's an advantage of then knowing the beauty and hair care industry so well that I'm like, I want this person to do my hair. I trust them and they're certified. They can talk very well to me. So this particular braided style is done by Camila. She's known on social media as Ms. Hair and Humor. And so she is considered, you know.

[Jen Sullivan]

She'S a former guest on my podcast.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

What?

[Jen Sullivan]

Yes, yes. From like years ago. Uh huh. I know exactly who she is. She's the best.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

She's the knotless queen. That's her identity. Knotless queen. So it's funny because she's actually closing down her salon space because she's going on tour with Madonna again. And so I think she begins in June or July. And so she does hair for I think in the Blackest King for Beyonce. She did hair for the black female character in the new Sex and the City series. So I trust her in executing my.

[Jen Sullivan]

Was this the first time you saw her for this look?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yes. So I trust.

[Jen Sullivan]

Is she as gentle as everybody says? So she's never done my hair, but I hear she has magic fingers.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

I fell asleep several times, several times during the hair care trip.

[Jen Sullivan]

What a treat. What a treat.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

So it's definitely magic. Definitely magic. No tension. I could move my head all around and so that. That even other times I've gotten braids. I've decided to use psychohairapists and other ones would like sage my hair first and put crystals. I really do believe in the holistic hair health piece.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, now tell me about upkeep. What products are you using? What do you like? Do you have some favorites?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Well, I'm a good old fashioned water User. Right. That's the only thing that moisturizes hair. But to seal in the water, I am more of a leave in conditioner person. The leave in conditioners I like because of some of my salon experience, are usually smelling super sweet. Maui Moisture has great leave in conditioners. I've been using a shea butter Maui Moisture leave in conditioner because they've been sending me products now that I can play in or even things like Alikay Naturals. We use that in the hair salon. It's like a yellow lemon, lemon grass leave in conditioner. So I love leave in conditioners that works really well for my hair. My hair is sort of high porosity and so kind of keeping my curls healthy. What else? I occasionally use some gel, usually coming from like a flaxseed gel or. I just love all products that have food in it. Okay, can I say that I love.

[Jen Sullivan]

When I we got lemongrass, we got flaxseed.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yeah. That's my confession. I love a product that has turmeric or that has aloe, like Maui Moisture. Like I like when it's plant based. I had been a vegan for like a good decade. I've started eating eggs recently. And so I think I enjoy using plants in my hair care process. So if I see those early ingredients, when you read the back of the label and it has some sort of like plant in it, give you the botanicals, all of that. I love a good herbal based hair product.

[Jen Sullivan]

Now what about skin or makeup? Do you have any favorites you can share with us?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Okay, so this l, this lip is lip bar, which is a black female owned brand, but this particular color is called Rich Auntie. So I don't have any children yet, but I do have lots of nieces. I do have lots of nieces and nephews. And just even seeing the label in the store, like, yes, I'm going to manifest Rich Auntie. I told my sister who actually went to Princeton and my brother who went to Yale that I wanted to pay for their teenage daughter's first year of college. Now one is in 10th grade and one's in 11th grade, so I'm a little nervous. I don't have it yet, but I'm.

[Jen Sullivan]

Getting to get them on the community college track asap. No, I'm just kidding. That's horrible. I'm horrible. No, that is so generous of you.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

I would love to do that. So Maui Moisture, if you want to give some more money so I could pay for my nieces to go to college, I welcome that as well.

[Jen Sullivan]

We could get some scholarships in your name. You know how like when you become a very well known person, you can have the Dr. Afia scholarship.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Look at you speaking it into existence. That's gonna happen.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

For psychology majors. Psychology majors that connect to beauty. There it is.

[Jen Sullivan]

What a legacy that would be though. That would be awesome. Of course your nieces and nephews could apply for it, but I just wanna open it up to the entire world so that we can spread the love around.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

That's.

[Jen Sullivan]

That's if I'm gonna speak it into being. Let's just get the rules straight.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yes. Yes. The application criteria. Yeah.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay. So you've got your lip bar, lip rich auntie who gives away scholarships. I love it. We didn't talk about scents. Do you like candles, perfume?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

I'm into essential oils. I don't want it to be any like endocrine disruptor or anything because sometimes people try to say don't rub that on your skin directly. But I love a good lavender scent. Ylang, ylang. That's. I enjoy just even like a minty scent sometimes as like a diffuser in my space when I'm doing therapy because I need to. It calms me down. So I think that that's a part of my scent profile.

[Jen Sullivan]

It's funny you mentioned that you love the products with the scent. I feel like that's part of the ritual. Like an unfragranced hair ritual for me would just. It wouldn't be as sensorial. Like I want to get as many senses involved as possibly. We've got touch, we've got sight, but like, I feel like people forget about that side of it. Right? Yeah.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

You know, the sensory experience. You were already talking about mirror neurons. So I know that you know how the brain function and needs stimulation in terms of our different lobes.

[Jen Sullivan]

All right, let's get off me and my nerdiness. Let's do the femme mascara 5. I have a couple speedy questions for you. What's the first beauty product you remember buying, like with your own money?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

All right, I'm gonna go with the super grow hair product. I think it was like green, like coconut oil. And I just would be grabbing it and trying to lay down my edges and do baby hair. And me and my friends would try to create all types of hairstyles, but this really thick green grease that smelled like coconuts.

[Jen Sullivan]

That's a good one. Okay. What self care practice gives you the most personal satisfaction?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

I love taking walks, especially in the spring, like this time of the year. I love seeing the Flowers bloom. I like the breeze in my face. I usually am listening to a podcast or a book on tape. And so I'm that lady who's frolicking down the street. Eat.

[Jen Sullivan]

No, that's. That's a beautiful way to have self care. Okay, what's your favorite indulgent snack?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

And people might not think this is indulgent, but my top two are acai bowls and avocado toast. I just love them so much. So anytime I travel, I just automatically put in my phone, like, acai bowls near me and just so that I can have one and taste it. I know that it's not actually that indulgent. Maybe it's probably a lot of sugar, but I just like tasting different versions of acai bowls and love fixings on top of my avocado toast.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay. Indulgence isn't always caloric. Cause the minute you said it, I was like, well, that's an indulgence. Cause, like, I'm sorry, the acai bowl down the street from me is like $12. And I'm like, it's fruit in a bowl. Right? So there's an indulgence. There's a monetary indulgence.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Yes, it's an investment. It's pretty Fuji.

[Jen Sullivan]

It's an investment.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

It's Fuji. I'm.

[Jen Sullivan]

And yeah, no, also chopping up fruits and vegetables, like the avocado, like, these are things that take time to prepare. Having somebody else do it for you is such a nice indulgence. I'm fully supportive of that. Okay, what song or singer, band or whatever puts you in a good mood?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Well, I am an Usher fan and I definitely went to his concert about two weeks ago, but I'm a fan of Jhene Aiko. Jhene Aiko. I feel like, like is really good in affirmations and like, her music is such a vibe that I usually put it on to, like, write articles or work on books I'm working on. And I just kind of get in a trance. I don't even hear her words sometimes. But it's like, I know she uses sound bowls and things like that that are addressing my chakras. So I do like her music a lot.

[Jen Sullivan]

That's good. And even when she has words you can still write and stuff to. It just puts you in a place.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

It does. It does something about her voice. It's not like overpowering that. It's like I have to focus on it, but it just feels so fluid that I get in a certain vibe.

[Jen Sullivan]

I love that. Okay, last question. What do you need to get a good night of beauty sleep?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

A cool temperature in the room? Sometimes I put a little lavender on my pillow. I was the queen of hot baths, but I've stopped doing that. But I needed actually a bath a day in terms of, like, really hardcore Epsom salt soaking. But I've not been doing that as much recently. But it would make me, like, pass out as soon as I would go into my bed. So something about the heat and then the cool would relax my muscles in my mind. And I like to do the five minute gratitude journal. So at night, you review your day and you identify three amazing things that happened to you that day, happened to you, or for you that day. And I think that that's a way that I can settle my mind instead of looking for, like. But I should have done that, and I should have done that. And why didn't that happen? That I have to, like, search. In the past few years, I was.

[Jen Sullivan]

Gonna say three amazing things, like, every day.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Sometimes. Sometimes having avocado toast is sometimes one of them.

[Jen Sullivan]

I woke up on time. That's like. I mean, some days are like that. So it forces you to sort of like, look at the glass half full, doesn't it?

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Basically, it's orienting yourself towards really great things so that you can easily detect it when it's actually happening. Like, ooh, I'm gonna write this in my journal later. This funny text that my friend sent me.

[Jen Sullivan]

Oh. It makes you more aware of good things throughout the day if you have that practice.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Exactly.

[Jen Sullivan]

That's a good trick. Maybe I need to start incorporating this. I feel like you're. Happy birthday to you. I feel like you're starting off your fourth decade. Or is that your fifth decade, technically, anyway, in such a wonderful fashion. And I'm so glad you had the time to come share your story with us and some of the work that you do. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Afia Mvilishaka]

Thanks for having me. This was great. I'm like, can we do more of this? But no pressure, but I enjoyed myself.

[Jen Sullivan]

Okay, part two is coming, everyone. Thank you. Thank you.

[Jess]

We hope you enjoyed the show.

[Jen Sullivan]

So it's your reviews and feedback that help us make the podcast even better. Head over to itunes to rate and review us or email your thoughts to infoatmascara.com we also want to answer your.

[Jess]

Beauty questions and hear what products you love. To share a Razoon product review or to ask a beauty question. Email us at infoatmascara.

[Jen Sullivan]

If you send it as a voice memo file, we can even share your voice on the podcast. You can also do that by leaving us a voice message. Our phone number in the United States is 646-481-8182.

[Jess]

Thanks so much for listening.

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[Jen Sullivan]

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[Jess]

Now get rid of them.

[Jen Sullivan]

There you go. No host ever.

[Jess]

Now it's a verbo.

[Jen Sullivan]

Make it a verbo.

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