Perfumer Francis Kurkdjian on Art, Commerce, and Dupe Culture

Summary

Fat Mascara Podcast Summary
Episode: Perfumer Francis Kurkdjian on Art, Commerce, and Dupe Culture
Release Date: March 17, 2025
Hosts: Jennifer Sullivan & Jessica Matlin
Guest: Francis Kurkdjian

---

Introduction

In this captivating episode of Fat Mascara, hosts Jennifer Sullivan and Jessica Matlin engage in an in-depth conversation with renowned perfumer Francis Kurkdjian. Drawing from his extensive experience in both his own fragrance house and roles with prestigious brands like Christian Dior and Jean Paul Gaultier, Kurkdjian delves into the intricate balance between art and commerce in the world of perfumery, the challenges posed by dupe culture, and his personal philosophies on scent creation.

---

Guest Background and Early Inspiration

Francis Kurkdjian, the creative force behind Maison Francis Kurkdjian and the Perfume Creation Director for Christian Dior since 2021, shares his journey into the world of fragrances. Reflecting on his teenage years, Kurkdjian recounts how an influential article and his mother's penchant for perfumes ignited his passion for becoming a perfumer.

[09:27] Francis Kurkdjian: "When you open a bottle of perfume, it's a silent world that steps out. It's like humanity, basically."

---

Philosophy and Approach to Perfumery

Kurkdjian emphasizes the importance of storytelling in perfumery, asserting that a fragrance is not merely a scent but a narrative encapsulated in a bottle. He believes that the name, bottle design, and advertising are as vital as the fragrance itself in creating a holistic sensory experience.

[14:04] Francis Kurkdjian: "The name of the perfume is as important as the scent. It's like naming a masterpiece painting."

He discusses his creative process, which begins with understanding the purpose and story behind each fragrance. Whether developing scents for his maison or collaborating with fashion houses like Dior, Kurkdjian focuses on translating stories and emotions into olfactory expressions.

[26:16] Francis Kurkdjian: "It's all about why. What is the story? Why are we launching a new perfume?"

---

Balancing Art and Commerce

Kurkdjian explores the delicate balance between maintaining artistic integrity and meeting commercial demands. While he strives to infuse each creation with universal appeal, he acknowledges the necessity of pleasing consumers to ensure a fragrance's success.

[28:14] Francis Kurkdjian: "I'm not free because when I create, even though there's an artistic beginning, I need to think about the final consumer."

He credits Albert Elbaz of Lanvin for instilling in him the importance of creating scents with universal resonance, transcending cultural and geographical boundaries.

[30:17] Francis Kurkdjian: "Think universal, not global. Universalism has depth and feelings."

---

Dupe Culture and Intellectual Property

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the pervasive issue of dupe culture in the fragrance industry. Kurkdjian expresses his frustration with brands that imitate successful scents without maintaining the quality and craftsmanship synonymous with maisons like his own.

[41:21] Francis Kurkdjian: "You can claim you are mimicking, but there is no exact copy of Rouge because Rouge is very, very, very special."

He criticizes the lack of intellectual property protection for fragrance formulas, likening it to the legal protections afforded to other forms of creative work like music or handbag designs.

[42:47] Francis Kurkdjian: "Why can't we protect the fragrance recipe while you can protect the design of a handbag? It doesn't make any sense to me."

Despite the challenges, Kurkdjian appreciates the relevance that dupe culture brings to his work, recognizing that imitation signifies influence and presence in the market.

[45:02] Francis Kurkdjian: "If you are copied, it means you are relevant, it means you exist."

---

Challenges and Failures

Kurkdjian is candid about his experiences with unsuccessful projects, highlighting the importance of simplicity and practicality in fragrance design. He recounts his collaboration with Jean Paul Gaultier, where intricate bottle designs and complex concepts led to commercial failures.

[34:19] Francis Kurkdjian: "Fragile was cool, but too complicated. You need two hands to spray the bottle. What the heck doesn't make sense."

These experiences have reinforced his commitment to creating fragrances that resonate on a fundamental level with consumers.

---

Impact and Legacy

Discussing his most successful creations, Kurkdjian names fragrances like "Green Tea" for Elizabeth Arden and "Au Noir" for Christian Dior, noting their enduring presence in the market as evidence of their universal appeal.

[39:37] Francis Kurkdjian: "When you have a hit, are you going to change the course of perfume history? That's interesting to me."

He proudly cites "Rouge" (Baccarat Rouge) as a game-changer in the industry, influencing contemporary perfumery trends and inspiring countless imitators.

[40:49] Francis Kurkdjian: "Rouge is like the name of a family. It smells like Baccarat Rouge, similar to how 'Number Five' by Chanel defines a category."

---

Personal Insights and Daily Life

Beyond his professional endeavors, Kurkdjian shares personal habits and preferences. He maintains a minimalist approach to personal grooming, using minimal products to preserve his skin's health. Although he enjoys wearing fragrances on weekends to receive feedback, he prefers to remain scent-free otherwise.

[53:56] Francis Kurkdjian: "I don't wear perfumes myself because I always feel that there is someone in my back or someone around. I'm not comfortable."

He values honesty and sincerity, expecting the same from his friends and colleagues, reflecting this philosophy in both his personal and professional interactions.

---

Upcoming Projects and Events

As Kurkdjian approaches his 30th anniversary in the fragrance industry, he announces an upcoming retrospective event in Paris, celebrating three decades of his contributions to perfumery. This event promises to showcase his innovative works and explore the evolution of his craft.

[52:00] Francis Kurkdjian: "We're celebrating my 30th anniversary with a retrospective in Paris this fall, focusing on my past, present, and future work."

---

Conclusion

This episode of Fat Mascara offers a profound exploration into the artistry and business of perfumery through the lens of Francis Kurkdjian. His insights into the creative process, the impact of dupe culture, and his dedication to crafting universally appealing scents provide listeners with a deeper appreciation of what goes into making a successful fragrance. Kurkdjian's blend of honesty, passion, and commitment to quality underscores his influential role in the beauty industry.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• [09:27] Francis Kurkdjian: "When you open a bottle of perfume, it's a silent world that steps out. It's like humanity, basically."

• [14:04] Francis Kurkdjian: "The name of the perfume is as important as the scent. It's like naming a masterpiece painting."

• [26:16] Francis Kurkdjian: "It's all about why. What is the story? Why are we launching a new perfume?"

• [28:14] Francis Kurkdjian: "I'm not free because when I create, even though there's an artistic beginning, I need to think about the final consumer."

• [30:17] Francis Kurkdjian: "Think universal, not global. Universalism has depth and feelings."

• [41:21] Francis Kurkdjian: "You can claim you are mimicking, but there is no exact copy of Rouge because Rouge is very, very, very special."

• [42:47] Francis Kurkdjian: "Why can't we protect the fragrance recipe while you can protect the design of a handbag? It doesn't make any sense to me."

• [39:37] Francis Kurkdjian: "When you have a hit, are you going to change the course of perfume history? That's interesting to me."

• [40:49] Francis Kurkdjian: "Rouge is like the name of a family. It smells like Baccarat Rouge, similar to how 'Number Five' by Chanel defines a category."

• [53:56] Francis Kurkdjian: "I don't wear perfumes myself because I always feel that there is someone in my back or someone around. I'm not comfortable."

---

Additional Information

For more insights and unfiltered discussions on beauty culture, subscribe to Fat Mascara on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. Become a member for exclusive content at https://plus.acast.com/s/fatmascara.

Transcript

[Jen]

If you're a parent or share a fridge with someone, Instacart is about to make grocery shopping so much easier because with family carts you can share a cart with your partner and each add the items you want. Since between the two of you, odds are you'll both remember everything you need. And this way you'll never have to eat milkless cereal again. So minimize the stress of the weekly shop with family carts, download the Instacart app and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes plus enjoy zero dollar delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees app for three orders in 14 days excludes restaurants worried about what ingredients are hiding in your groceries? Let us take the guesswork out. We're Thrive Market the online grocery store with the highest quality standards in the industry. We restrict 1000 plus ingredients so you can trust that you'll only find the best high quality organic and sustainable brands all free of the junk. With savings up to 30% off and fast carbon neutral shipping, you get top trusted groceries at your door and you can stop worrying about what your kids get their hands on. Start [e-mail] podcast for 30% off your first order and a free gift. Who doesn't like a little luxury? I like luxury, but you know what? I don't like luxury prices. That's why Jess and I love Quint. Quint is our go to for luxury essentials at affordable prices. They offer a range of high quality items at prices within reach like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50, washable silk tops and dresses, organic sweaters, 14 karat gold jewelry. Best of all, everything is price 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they partner directly with top factories. Quint is able to cut out the cost of the middleman and pass the savings on to us and on to you.

[Jess]

I am doing a whole spring refresh and that means new towels for my family. Towels can be very expensive, especially good ones. I'm getting a whole Turkish classic bath towel bundle for under $100. Actually top that under $80.

[Jen]

I'm going to refresh for spring too. You know I'm into all of their linen dresses and linen pieces. Everything's super affordable. Plus Quint only works with factories that use safe E and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Give yourself the luxury you deserve with Quince. Go to quince.com fatmascara for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Quince Q-U-I-N-C-E.com fatmascara to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com fatmascara.

[Jess]

Let'S get hype, everyone. This is. This is a. This is a big one for frag heads.

[Jen]

That's right, yes.

[Jess]

Hi, everyone, it's Jess.

[Jen]

Hi, it's Jen. Welcome to Fat Mascara, a podcast about beauty culture today. Today only, actually, sometimes a podcast about fragrance culture.

[Jess]

This is a goodie. If you love fragrance, there's a really good chance that you know of and quite possibly love Mr. Kirjan.

[Jen]

Francis Kirjan. Francis Kirjan.

[Jess]

You've definitely smelled one of his fragrances, whether you know it or not.

[Jen]

Absolutely. Absolutely. You have so many hits. We'll talk about some of them. But in case you're not familiar with his very, very prestigious resume, he is the head of his own perfume company, Maison Francis Kajan. And since 2021, he's also served as the perfume creation director for a little fashion house called Christian Dior. So we're so lucky to have Francis here direct from Paris, virtually in the virtual studio. Shall we get into it?

[Jess]

Let's do it. Okay, Listen, Francis. Francis.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I don't know. I speak French, so in French we say Francis.

[Jess]

Okay, Francis, first of all, this is living up to all of my expectations. Jen and I have met you several times before, but we've never had this one on One FM interview, which, by the way, has been in the works for a while.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Really? How come?

[Jess]

Your people were talking to people and it was. It was a whole hullabaloo.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Okay, okay, all right.

[Jess]

And not really a hullabaloo. It was just. It took time. It took time.

[Jen]

A fabulous collaboration.

[Jess]

It was. It was a. It was a collab, as they say.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

O.

[Jess]

Now you're sitting in your office, which, as we panned out, I was like, is this a rotunda? Your office is everything that our listeners are expecting. You're sitting under a Baccarat chandelier.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Do you want me to show. May I?

[Jess]

I mean, I don't know if our. Okay, okay. Give us a virtual. Remember, this is audio. So take us through. Give us a mini tour.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. It's audio. Of course.

[Jess]

It's okay.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I can give you a mini tour. So there is a chandelier above my head. Oh, look, if it's an audio. Hold on.

[Jess]

Oh, be careful, be careful.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

This is Levacant.

[Jess]

Okay.

[Jen]

I think he has friends there. If it breaks, it's fine.

[Jess]

They'll replace crystals for you, like, one by one. Okay. He's got a Couch from Versailles.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yes. I can scratch the fabric.

[Jen]

Oh, it's asmr. Everyone. We're getting multisensory experience.

[Jess]

This is so good. This is so good. We need. We need a show. Xian. We need a show. Producers give us a buzz and then what else we have? Just give us one more object from the room before we kick in.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

An amazing Mandarin tree right there sitting in my office.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Is it real for. Yeah, 15. 15 years. I've got it for 50. It was given by. So what can I do? Like scratch, like scratch a leaf.

[Jen]

We hear it, we're in the trees.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

And it smells like mandarin. And it was given by my business angel whose name is Annette. And Annette, she is an entrepreneur. She's an amazing woman. I had lunch with her today because we still hang out together. She's above 70ish now, but she runs a company that is a stock market company where she does. She runs a boat selling company. She sells amazing boats and she founded with Mark and I. She basically created the house in 2009 and she gave me the tree and she told me once and I never forgot it, take care of the tree and make sure you have flowers and fruits because it shows that the company is healthy. And right now we have lots of fruits. I'm very happy.

[Jen]

So the company is very healthy.

[Jess]

Yeah, very healthy. And we're going to talk all about this company. Jen and I have a lot of questions. This is not an accident that you're sitting in this decked out office with everything that you would imagine if this was a movie about a perfumer, this is what the office would look like. You were 14 years old and we heard that you knew that you wanted to be a perfumer after reading an article in a magazine. Is that true?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yeah, I still have the article and the magazine. And I met a month ago, I met one of the perfumer who was in the magazine.

[Jess]

Stop.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, no.

[Jess]

Who was it?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Jean Louis Cusac. Jean Louis is the first name. Sherzac is the name. And the guy, just to give some names, just created opium by Yves St. Laurent, the 1977 one. And he's credited as well for Oscar de la Renta. The very first perfume for Oscar de la Renta. And then he co created basically also Fahrenheit from Christian Dior.

[Jen]

Guys, I love it. We even have the French police sirens in the background. Evocative.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

It's not the police, those are the firemen. Because the office is nearby a fire house. So we have like at least sometimes twice, three times a Day, sometimes we hear the sirens. So it's like being in the urban. In a very urban environment. Because from where I'm seated, I have an overlook on Beautiful place, which I love. I just forgot it, sorry. All of a sudden I have a blank as I am speaking English. Place de Victoire, My office overlooks at Place de Victoire, which is an amazing site in Paris, behind the Palais Royal.

[Jess]

Okay, That I know.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

So my neighbor, basically here is Alexandre Matusi from Amie, the brand Ami. The fashion, the men's. The menswear brand, Alexand matissy. He's sitting 100 meter away from me.

[Jen]

Tell him we say hello.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yeah, I will, I will.

[Jess]

So what happened when you read this article as a. As a teenager? What. What clicked in?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

It's not only that article, it was also that article. It was also because my mother was wearing, I believe, amazing perfumes. And also there was that movie I saw on TV named Le Sauvage, the Savage. It's a story with Catherine Deneuve. She's starring Catherine Deneuve and yvesmonton. And Yves Montau is playing the role of a perfumer based in New York City. And Catherine is at the peak of her. Not the peak, because she's a beautiful woman, but in that movie she's just amazing. And I thought that the whole movie is insane. And the whole thing together, between my mother's perfume, the article and Catherine Deneuve. And I was in the middle of searching the sense for my life, maybe because right before that I wanted to be a ballet dancer. And in France you have at the time, 40 years ago, basically, I didn't have that much choice between going to the Paris Opera Ballet or doing nothing. I remember when I was young, at school, my French teacher, literature, she used to read a quote from Victor Hugo saying that I want to become. I want to be Chateaubriand Orient. So basically, I want to be at the top of nothing. And I believe that. When I understood that I wouldn't be able to become a ballet dancer as good as I wanted, I just decided to quit ballet and to do something else. And it took me very little to understand that I will go for perfume. Because perfume, to me still now is a mystery. I have few samples on my desk. And from that era I was collecting some. My sister was collecting samples, perfume samples as well. And when you open a bottle of perfume, it's a well that. It's a well gets out of a bottle. Basically, this is what perfume is about to me.

[Jess]

It's literally I think everyone who loves perfume feels the same way. And I think you either get it or you don't.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

And it's not a matter of being expensive perfume or cheap perfume. In the US you have an amazing brand. I'm not even sure if it's around, but Old Spice is an amazing perfume. You have the first Gloria Vanderbilt perfume. You have Brut de Bath by Faberge. You have, of course, the Calvin Klein and the Elizabeth Arden and all those brands. But literally, when you open a bottle of perfume, it's a silent world that steps out. And all of a sudden, that world gets its habitants, you know, living people. All of a sudden, your face is coming out of the bottle. You have voices. You have places with people. You hang out, used to hang out. You have your grandparents, maybe, or your parents or friends, brothers, sisters. It's like it's humanity, basically.

[Jess]

Perfume is human or a place that you want to go. A place where you see yourself.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

All places where you see. But to me, it's more linked to. Most of the time, it's linked to people mostly.

[Jess]

Which. Which were the big ones when you were growing up that you really were inspired by?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I was not so much inspired by the perfume itself, but. But by the entire product. Because to me, a perfume is not. It's not just a scent. Perfume is also a name. You know, I have sitting on my. Right there. I show it to you. It's reversed, but it's called Bel Ami. Okay. It's by Hermes. But if I open the bottle and I smell it, I know the name is Bellamy. I know that the brand is Hermes. And when I smell it, it's not the same thing. That if the name of the product was something different. I give you an example. There is two perfumes from Guerlain, that amazing French brand, Guerlain, that were in there, that were created in the 20s, 1920s. Okay. 1. The name of the first one is Shalimar. Okay. The name of the second one is Jardin de Moncure, the garden of my Priest. They were perfumed to be worn. Okay. What do you expect to wear as a scent when the name of the perfume is Jardin de Montcure, the Garden of my priest, you know, the name is very important in a way.

[Jen]

Which one is still around and popular.

[Jess]

Yeah, you see?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, just to say that a perfume is not just a scent. A perfume is also the name, like the piece of art. What is Mona Lisa or La Joconda? If it was not named La Joconde, you know, or Mona Lisa? What is Guernica as a painting. If you remove the name Guernica and you call it just randomly number four.

[Jess]

Yeah.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

So I believe at some point the. The name of the perfume is as important as the scent. Because when you wear the perfume and you talk to someone who is asking, what do you wear? Oh, I wear the garden of my priest. You know.

[Jess]

Oh, then it's. The whole conversation changes.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yes.

[Jess]

Yeah.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

You see what I mean? So I was also very much in love with the perfume, the bottle, the name, the stories, even the advertising that was behind.

[Jess]

Jess.

[Jen]

I know we've talked about Olive and June nail polish on the podcast, but the brand doesn't just do polish. They make the whole act of getting manicure easier with their systems.

[Jess]

The Olive and June mani system has completely changed the way things are rolling at my house. Game changer. When I have the mani system, they look fresh, they look clean, they look polished. No pun intended. And actually, some people have thought that I actually went to the salon and got them done, which was high praise.

[Jen]

Oh, my God. Same. The polish itself is great and the color lasts really long without chipping. But the system has it all. They have tools. The remover, the cleanup brush, the file, the cuticle serum, the top coat. Your choice of six polished colors. Best thing in the box, though, is the poppy. That's the thing you call the doohickey, but it's called the poppy. And you pop it on the brush's top and it makes it easier to hold and balance so you can do both hands perfectly, even if you're not, like, ambidextrous. I'm also obsessed with their Valentine's Day mini polish set they have right now. You get bottles of four sequin heart polishes. You can wear them on their own or as top coats. The Cupid who shade is so cute. It has tiny black hearts and like, little sequins. It looks like fishnets over your nails. It's great. If that sounds good to you. They also do press ons. They have quick dry polishes. Just go check out their site. Visit oliveandjune.com mascara for 20% off your first system. That's Olive and June. O L I V E a n d J-U-N-E.com mascara m a s c a r a oliveandjune.com mascara for 20% off your first manicure system. Who doesn't like a little luxury? Luxury. I like luxury. But you know what? I don't like luxury prices. That's why Jess and I love quince. Quince is our Go to for luxury essentials at affordable prices. They offer a range of high quality items at prices within reach. Like 100 Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50 washable silk tops and dresses, organic sweaters, 14 karat gold jewelry. Best of all, everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Because they partner directly with top factories, Quince is able to cut out the cost of the middleman and pass the savings on to us and on to you.

[Jess]

I am doing a whole spring refresh and that means new towels for my family. Towels can be very expensive, especially good ones. I'm getting a whole Turkish classic bath towel bundle for under $100. Actually top that under $80.

[Jen]

I'm going to refresh for spring too. You know, I'm into all of their linen dresses and linen pieces. Everything's super affordable. Plus Quint only works with factories that you safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Give yourself the luxury you deserve with quince. Go to quince.com fatmascara for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Quince Q-U-I-N-C-E.com fatmascara to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com fatmascara Savor the best of spring with great everyday prices at Whole Foods Market. Yellow low price signs help you save.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Money without compromising quality.

[Jen]

Like on organic chicken breast and thighs, ground beef and more. All with no antibiotics ever. Plus brighten your plate for less with 365 by Whole Foods Market. Brioche, smoked salmon, cherry tomatoes, organic apples and more. Shop low prices daily at Whole Foods Market, in store and online foreign.

[Jess]

You got the whole concept and you got it very early.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

You.

[Jess]

You locked in. You weren't just a. I read somewhere that you were like, I'm not a nose. You were. You were very.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I'm not a nose. But from a very. From a very young age. I'm not a nose for a very long time.

[Jess]

You're not a nose. You are. You know, I. How do you like to describe yourself? Like, how would you describe.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I'm a perfumer. I create perfumes.

[Jess]

But a perfumer. But you also, like, you're. Since like I was saying from day one. Like you saw the whole world. The bottle, the ad, the whole vision.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

If you go back. If you go back to the origin of the craft and what it was to be a perfumer 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 300 years. I have books in my Library. They are like 400 years old and they describe on how to become a perfumer, how to learn perfumes. And basically I am one of those guys. There is no difference between Jacques Garland, I believe, in 1925 and myself today. Because those perfumers, before fashion took over. Because why is there, why do we have a blur nowadays? It's because in 1920 basically fashion took over perfumes because of Coco Chanel with Chanel number five, 1921, basically Chanel steps in the perfumer, the world of perfumes and basically she takes it over in her sillage, in her trail. All the other brands comes and basically it's the end of perfumers. Because before that a perfumer was someone who was at the same time crafting perfumes and selling perfumes. The same name goes for two different crafts, two different jobs, basically.

[Jess]

So then you have the designer perfume.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yes.

[Jess]

And then the nose behind it.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yes, totally, totally.

[Jen]

Oh, is this why you put Maison in your brand name?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, I put Maison because for two reasons. I put Maison as a tribute to Maison Couture in a way, to couture house and also to craftsmanship. Because in France when we use the word maison, we don't say brands because we have that kind of snobbish stuff. To be honest, it's a bit snobbish in a way, but I genuinely love it. And I put it in my, in the first, in the very first press release that we, when we launched the Maison in 2009, as a statement, I said, I'm not using maison as a posture, I'm using maison because a house has owners, a house has inhabitants, a house has friends, and some houses have even kids. To me, behind the word maison and also because a maison, you pass it on the keys. I am currently the owner with Marc Shaya and we are running, but we sold the majority stake to lvmh. So one day the house will belong to LVMH and there will be another perfumer sitting, I hope, in this office, sitting at my desk and thinking the craft the way I, I imagine it, in a way. But Maison to me is about. There is more depth in my French mind in a way than just saying it's a brand. Because before being a brand, first it's myself, it was my name and it's a maison, meaning it's alive, you know, a brand seems to me a bit.

[Jess]

Too cold and short lived.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Not necessarily, but at least this is how in France we talk about brands when they are at a certain level of craftsmanship with Maison. It's very, very specific to France.

[Jen]

You mentioned that the name is as important as the bottle, as the scent. Do you always get to have a say in the name? Let's talk about Jean Paul Gaultier.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, no, no. Lumal. When he was. When he was. For other brands. At the time, it was my first perfume. So it was 19. It was 1994. The fragrance was released in 95. In 95, but it was in 94. So I had. I was. It was my first perfume, so I had nothing to. I wasn't known. I was 24 years old. So it was not. It was no way I had to say anything about it. And when I look at the name of the bottle in the office, when I saw, for the very first time, after all those efforts, nine months, it took me nine months to create the perfume. I saw the thin can in metal. I saw the mannequin with the bulge and the stripes. I said, oh, my God, it's going to be. It's going to be a disaster.

[Jess]

Why?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Because I am super. I was at the time very conservative in a way. Because when I was 14. Yeah, because to me, perfume was linked to couture. Couture houses were like 10. You could. You had less than 10 couture houses in Paris. They were all in Avdu Montaigne, because Rue Saint Honorie in Paris. So basically, to make it relevant for the US it's like downtown versus downtown versus uptown or midtown. You know, when you think about. You have Upper east side shops where very few people go. It's basically Havre du Montaigne. If you go midtown by Madison, it's very chic and elegant. So it's like Rue Saint Honore. And then you have downtown, which is cool and chic and hype. Paris is more or less the same way in a very limited area, though. So Le Triangle Dor, the gold triangle, as we say, is where you had only couture houses not ready to wear only couture houses. You had no place for catering, no restaurant, nothing. And you had only couture houses and very few people who used to live there.

[Jen]

And no tourists, no sexy naked sailor.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

With stripes, nothing like that. And all of a sudden. So that was my ideal word as a perfumer, was to work for nina Ricci, Yves St. Laurent, and Givenchy and Christian Dior and Chanel. And all of a sudden I have that guy that. Who puts those men with kills. Who knows what he's under. Who knows what they were under with, like, tin tanks and like, crazy stuff and, like, no, it's not me. No, no. I'm lost. I was 24 years old. I was totally lost. I was like, oh, my. Oh, my God. What I'm doing here?

[Jen]

Wait, first of all, you were 24?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yes, 24.

[Jen]

I mean, I could. You probably know, but how many iterations of that fragrance have been around since what a huge hit it was, and you were only 24.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

It's getting a new hype because they just released a perfume version out of it and that thing is going viral. So basically, the boys.

[Jen]

You were wrong. The boys.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

So first I was wrong and now the boys. The boy or the people? The guys who are wearing it today were not even born 30 years ago.

[Jess]

They have no idea.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

So it's like, in a way, it's like I'm old enough now to be part of the history, which is kind of scary when you think about it.

[Jess]

I think it smells great. I think it's very sexy. I love it.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

You think it's sexy?

[Jess]

I do. Remember when it came out. I love it.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I know, but I'm not that old. I'm not like 70 yet. You know, I'm just 54. I'm turning 56 this year. So it's kind of scary to think that at 56, you are part of history. I don't know if I like it very much, to be honest.

[Jess]

Well, you look good.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Well, it's too much looking good. It's more in your head, you know?

[Jess]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

So I'm curious how you take your approach and make it different for the different projects that you work on. Whether it's for your own maison, other places, it's always you. It's always the same. Tell us how that all works.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

It works exactly the same way. For every single project I work on, I work exactly the same way. Meaning, what do we have to say? What is the purpose? Why? It's all about why. What is the story? Why are we launching a new perfume? Why do we need a new perfume? To do what? Why? And then I start to either create the story from scratch. So when it's at Dior, when it's at my own maison, this is how it works from scratch, or do I need to back it up with a history? So sometimes for Dior, because Jar is a history brand. It's. It's a 75 years old brand, basically. So we have a heritage department where you can dig into stories and so on. So I'm going to read books, interviews and so on. And if before that period of time, of my life, when I was for Jean Paul Gaultier or all the other brands I worked for, even Narcisso Rodriguez or when I worked for Elizabeth arden in the U.S. it's, let's create a story. And once you have your story, my job is just to translate wording images into a scent. What you can't tell with images, what you can't say with words, what you can't tell with music, are you sent to express it. This is. So basically, I speak the untold.

[Jess]

Yeah. No, I mean, it makes perfect sense. You speak the untold. So what. What else? When you look at all of the other perfumers that are around today, and maybe even those that came before you, what do you feel you bring to that other. What is your sort of trademark? What is your imprint?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

That's very. That's a tough question.

[Jess]

I'm not asking you to be, like, braggadocious. I'm just saying, like, what is your.

[Jen]

What's your point of difference? Like, what's the point?

[Jess]

Maybe it's something.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Freedom. Freedom.

[Jess]

Freedom. And why are you free?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I'm free because I'm not saying I'm free, but I'm always looking for my freedom, but I'm not saying I'm free because when you create a perfume, perfume is not enough piece first. And you. I think your audience must understand that. Maybe it's. There is artist. There is. It's not. Maybe there is artistry behind it. You can start with an artistic mood or an artistic vision as a starter, but at the very end, you have to please. I have to please in the audience. I have to seduce people with my perfume because the perfume is meant to please. A perfume is meant to be beautiful. A perfume is meant to enhance happiness. The perfume is meant to enhance sexiness. The perfume is. Is here to be worn and to create emotions, but positive emotions. Who wants to wear a perfume that brings you tears? Who wants to wear a perfume that is about crime and desperation and blood and. And.

[Jen]

Okay, that would be art. Yeah. Not.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yeah.

[Jess]

I was gonna say maybe some artists. Some. A downtown artist, I'm sure is working on this now. Yeah, of course.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

But there is a big limit. That is the limit of it. So I'm not free because when I create, even though when I start working on a new perfume, most of the time there is something about. There is an artistic beginning. I'm inspired by a painting and can be inspired by Rodco, by music, by something, by. At some point, I need to think about my final consumer. I need to think about that man or woman he she who, whatever think that's going to be in the perfume one thinking, what are you going to feel wearing it?

[Jess]

When you say your final consumer, I'm sure your consumer. Your consumer is like everybody now, not everybody, but like you have so many consumers, you have a very broad audience.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I'm not thinking about my consumer. I'm thinking about a universal feeling. I learned that from. I was lucky enough. I worked with amazing designers and I worked and I always think about him because dear, he was a great designer. Albert Elbaz, when he was working at Lanvin. And I met him couple of times when I. While I was working for him. And one day it was one of my first encounter and he said, oh, you know, Francis, you have to remember this, you have to remember that you must think universal, not global, because universal. Because universalism has depth and feelings. And every time I create a perfume and since that moment with Albert, I was doing it before, but I was never able to verbalize it, express it. But thanks to Albert, when I think about a story, my mind goes, okay, now if I'm in Japan, is my client in Japan is going to understand my story. If I switch and I go to the U.S. whether I am in Houston, Louisiana or New York, is my consumer over there is going to understand what I'm talking about. If I jump and take a plane to Italy, Spain, England, Germany, is this ringing in people's mind? So it's not about. I know that as you said, I am lucky. My people who love us, they are everywhere. From multi generational, from many different fields, from many different. I have a very diverse client.

[Jess]

Yeah. And especially in the past few years. Yeah.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Because it goes from NBA in the US to the very chic Left bank in Paris to. I was in Vienna last this weekend and I was stopped in the street twice because people wanted to take pictures with me. I felt embarrassed because I don't like the fame with perfume. But I was happy at some point because there were two different moments, two different type of people and they were touched by my work. And I have to say, because we believe with my business partner and Mark, we believe that it's about people. Perfume is about people. You know, you have to speak the language of sincerity. You have to speak something very simple and get rid of the concept. Because it's not about concept, it's about stories.

[Jess]

Well, why don't we talk about one of your big stories?

[Jen]

Yeah, I want to. Well, this universality that you talked about, is that always success? Because you've had some successes.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yeah. But I have big failures as well. And you learn also from your failures. You know, we always speak about.

[Jess]

Let's talk about both. Let's talk about both.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

This is interesting. We always speak about successes. Okay, so you're.

[Jen]

Do you think with the. Yeah, with the failures, did you lose track of what you just told us? That thing about pleasing the people? Why do you think you had some failures?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Because Failures. Sometimes the name is awkward.

[Jen]

Okay.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Because the name is like, the garden of my priest is an awkward name. Because sometimes the name plus the shape of the bottle plus the color of the bottle, plus the ad plus. Plus. Plus makes it ugly or unbearable.

[Jess]

Wait, can you share what one of the failures was? We don't talk about failure that much.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Of course not. Because people are ashamed about failure.

[Jess]

Failing, of course.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

But failing is a good thing if you learn from why you failed, basically. And sometimes the concept of the story is too complicated and it doesn't work because people don't get it. What could be a big failure at Maison? Or the smell or the scent is too.

[Jess]

Well, it doesn't have to be at Maison. Just like. What was something.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, I have some. Yeah. I did a scent for Jean Paul Gaultier called named Fragile. Fragile. And it was an amazing bottle. It was a conceptual bottle.

[Jess]

It was like a globe. A snow globe. A snow globe?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yeah, a snow globe. Once you press on the perfume, the perfume goes down. At some point, the girl in the snowboard, her head is above. The head is above the line of the perfume. I remember that she's, like, jumping in the globe. You know, she's like, swimming or, like, dying or diving or whatever is in the globe. At some point, she. She has a perfume half the waist. And because you have a kind of a zoom effect with the glass bowl, the thing is out of dimension, so it doesn't make sense. Or another perfume for Jean Paul Gautier I made was to the power of two Gautier. Pisans de in French is the name of. You see, you. You're, like, bronzing your eyebrow. You don't even know what.

[Jess]

Because I don't know this one.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

It was a disaster. It was a disaster because it was impossible to translate the concept in English. It was unbelievable.

[Jen]

It doesn't sound great. No offense.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, no, no, it was not. And the perfume. And they released the perfume now because. And it's doing kind of well because they relaunched the perfume.

[Jess]

I do think the first one was cool, the fragile. Anyway.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Fragile was cool, but too complicated. You need. You needed two hands to spray the bottle. What the heck doesn't make sense. You don't. People are used to take a bottle, you spray once with your one finger, you know, easy. How come you need two hands? How come you need all of a sudden all your fingers to press on the bottle to get some perfume? You know, not for. No, no. We need practical things. No. Sometimes I have done some. No, I had some big flops.

[Jen]

We go through a lot of sunscreen here in the fat mascara families, don't we, Jess?

[Jess]

We go through a ton.

[Jen]

One of our favorites is of course Blue Lizard. Pediatrician trusted dermatologist tested also they have these little smart caps that turn blue in UV light. How good is that? Then you know, the sun is out, it is time to get protected. Plus they have a whole sensitive family of products that's personally my favorite. Helps keep my sensitive skin safe from the sun's harmful rays. All the formulas are free from potentially irritating parabensalates fragrances. I just love them to which whatever.

[Jess]

You use, I love them for my child. And you know why? Because I love a spray easy to get her but they dry clear. None of that nasty white pasty stuff. It dries nice and clear. And also I know that this should be obvious, guys, they're free from potentially irritating fragrances, parabens and phthalates. Go to bluelizardsunscreen.com to find out more information and find out which sunscreens are right for your family and where you can buy Instagram store or visit the Blue Lizard Australian sunscreen store on Amazon.

[Jen]

Be fearless in the sun. Okay, I'm going to let you in on a secret. I've always wanted to be a scientist. Everybody listens to fat Mascara knows it's Jen Science Corner. Guess who has helped me up my game. Masterclass and their class with with Bill Nye. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with more than 200 of the world's best instructors.

[Jess]

And all of this for just $10 a month build annually. A membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every instructor. And you can access Masterclass on your phone. That's where I watch a lot of it. At the gym, on the treadmill, your computer, your smart tv or even in audio mode if you don't want to look at the pictures. There's classes about every type of topic from Jay Shetty navigating change, perfect for the moment to how to style your hair every day with Jan Atkin, former fat mascara guest.

[Jen]

And right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] Fat Mascara. That's 15% [e-mail] Fat mascara. Jess, what's that website?

[Jess]

Masterclass.com Fat mascara.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Hey, prime members, are you tired of ads interfering with your favorite podcasts? Good news. With Amazon Music, you have access to the largest catalog of ad free top podcasts included with your prime membership. To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com adfreepodcasts that's Amazon.com ad freepodcasts to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads.

[Jen]

On the other side, you definitely have had some hits. Yes, yes. And I think a lot of perfumers wish they went out and every project ended up being a viral hit, as you called it earlier.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. I'm lucky because my hits are game changers.

[Jen]

What do you think of is your hits? We know what we think. But what do you think of is your hits?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Of course.

[Jen]

What are the greatest hits?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

By Francis Green Tea is a bit hardened because it's still around. And when you go to.

[Jess]

What was the one you said by Elizabeth?

[Jen]

Green Tea by Elizabeth.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Oh, it's still around 1999. You know when you know that? When you understand that you have about more than 400 perfume launches a year and your perfume is still there year after year on every single Duty Free of the planet.

[Jen]

And the company makes 17 flankers with the name even though there's no tea in them.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yes. And the Green tea. And the Green Tea is still around. I say I chop myself and I always take a picture and I send it to the PR guy in Paris with whom I launched green tea in 99 in Paris. And I said, hello, Carl, here we go. So Green Tea. Then we have Narciso for her, Narciso Rodriguez. Then we might have for the very, very frequent specialist, we have Au Noir by Christian Dior in 2004. Au Noir with Eddie Slimane. Then we have maybe Elie Saab was a hit. Then 2009. Then we have, of course. And we have Rouge, of course, in. In 2014.

[Jen]

There she is.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

And maybe one or two others, but voila.

[Jen]

I wore rouge today in honor of you.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Merci. Thank you. And no, no. What is interesting to when you have a hit is are you going to change the course of the perfume history? That's interesting to me.

[Jen]

Do you think rouge did that Baccarat rouge?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

[Jen]

How so?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

First of all, when you smell a perfume now, which is close or which is a direct inspiration, you say, oh, c'estin Rouge. It's a rouge. So basically the perfume. The perfume becomes like the name of a family. Like, it smells like angel or it's a number five. Because when you smell a floral aldehydic perfume, you say, oh, it smells like number five. So it is a number five, or it is a shalimar or it is an opium.

[Jess]

You mean you smell it like, you go. And when you're looking and you smell things, you just. You smell things that are inspired by it.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jess]

But when you're. When you're searching for things, like, I'm seeing literal, like dupes that say, yeah, yeah, there's one there. I was laughing the other day. I saw a thing that was like, I don't want to call out these actual brands, but one of them was like, smells like Baccarat Rouge.

[Jen]

There's like a pack of smells like ambery Saffron.

[Jess]

Yeah.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

But you know what? You can claim you are mimicking. You can claim that you are copying, but there is no exact copy of rouge because rouge is very, very, very special. So you may be trapped once or twice because you think that you're going to get cheaper. But the reason why the Maison is famous as well is because of the quality of the product and also the ratio between the price we ask for and the quality. The reason why my product is expensive is not just because I want to be in the same level of whatever brands who is expensive. I am expensive because I have a raw material, the quality of my perfume, the craftsmanship, and the time I spend behind each single perfume to be there in the bottle. The quality of the material is the. How can I say the question to make the price.

[Jess]

It's the price. You have to measure it with the. With the price. Do you feel when you look at those brands that are duping you, what is your. Like, what emotion comes up and sounds a little bit therapy speak, but, like, what.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

How do you feel duping is stealing. Basically, it's valuable. It's violated. Violating.

[Jess]

It's violating.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Violating rights. Of course, it's easy to say that a perfume formula can be patented, can't be patented. No one can patent a formula. Why can we patent a piece of music? Why can't we patent a piece of a formula? Which is. Basically, the formula is here. This is a formula, okay? Your readers can see it. But basically, it's like a recipe, okay? It's a fragrance recipe. So why can't we protect the fragrance recipe while you can protect the design of a handbag? It doesn't make any sense to me. So I feel flattered, of course, because if you get. We don't copy things. I mean, things with no value are not copied, of course. So the market is about copying or being inspired by relevant things, of course. So if you are copied, it means you are relevant, so it means you exist. So I have to say there is a little bit of pride that fades very quickly once you understand that copies and knocks off and dupes is a cool sheet to say just a copy. It's a new world to say it's a copy.

[Jess]

Is there anything you're aware of that your industry is doing to fight it.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Or is it slow? It's very slow, unfortunately, the industry. So in France, we're getting organized. First of all, every time there is an article about dupes, we are calling back the journalists to explain. Not to be nasty, but just to explain. Dupes is a new word to express and to talk about copies. It's cool. Dupes is cool. It's like a millennial. When I was young, they used to call myself a teenager. Now to D to now, the same. We went from millennial to Gen Z to Millennial or whatever. The world changes, but the meaning is the same. You steal the intellectual property of someone by wearing a copy, a fake product.

[Jess]

Do you think the word like dupe is sort of like making light of basically stealing the word? Like, it's like a cutesy pie word for like.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Those brands are very clever and they dupe. The brand are the copy, but the dupe also the consumer. You, as a buyer of a dupe, you are dupe as well, because you think you buy the exact same thing, but it's not. Well, now we see it on social media. TikTok and mostly TikTok and Instagram, but mostly TikTok. When you follow the brand, the dupe brands, after a few months, sometimes one or two years, they basically shut down the company because customer starts to email back or complain that the perfume is not close enough. The perfume doesn't last. The perfume is not good. The perfume gives you harshes. You are dupe. As a consumer, you're also a dupe yourself.

[Jen]

So I assume you have not bought the Walmart Birkin bag.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Francis, we heard about it. I wonder how come people can be stupid enough to buy such an item? Because how come? Equality of the leather. I know because I buy my leather goods. We have scented leather goods at Maison Francis Chojo, but we sell them only in Paris. But I buy at the same place as Hermes. I Know that we have the same suppliers. I wonder how come Walmart can pretend that they sell the same quality bag for such a cheap price. It's just impossible.

[Jess]

Yeah, that whole conversation is very far away from perfume. Yeah. No, no, no. But there's the same principles. Okay, so out of all of your scents, what do you think is the most misunderstood perfume?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I don't know. I'm not so sure if my scents, if one of them is misunderstood, maybe.

[Jess]

One that, like, hasn't gotten the glory that you feel it quite deserves.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

You know what? When it happens and it had happened, I always believe it's my fault. I will never blame the public. I blame myself always.

[Jess]

Okay.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Because it's my mission. Because it's my work. It's my mission. It's my job. So how. How come I can blame the public for not understanding me? It's so pretentious. It's fucking pretentious. No, but it's f pretentious, to be honest.

[Jen]

So you're not an artist, as you've already told us?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, it's not about being an artist. But how come all of a sudden you say, I am the one who has a. Who knows, you know? I know. You don't. I know. And pointing out people. I know.

[Jen]

Do you ever wish, though, you had a baby that you loved, you put it out in the world and you were like, I wish he got more love.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I am here to love them.

[Jen]

Okay. You'll love them.

[Jess]

Okay. You know what? This is. This is very insightful.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jess]

I'm not going to make you, like. I'm not going to shoehorn this question in. Okay, that's fine. It's very insightful. I like it. All right. You do a lot with your fragrances. They don't just sit there on a shelf. You've scented exhibitions and performances all around the world. Paris, Versailles, Shanghai, Florence, Vienna. What are some other ways that you want to share fragrance with people in.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

The world around other ways?

[Jess]

Yeah. You've even done fragrance bubbles, which, like, adorable.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Fragrance bubbles. Yeah, we do fragrance bubbles. We do many things. I. I love stepping out of the bottle. I have to say, I love perfume. To go elsewhere, to be. It's like, if you can't. If you believe that perfume. Perfume can. Can be an art. Perfume right now in a bottle is not an art. I explained it.

[Jen]

Okay.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

But this, the world of smell is. Can be art and can work as an art form. Can be an art form. The same way photography, the same way images, you know, images. Some images are meant to be to help to sell. This is advertising. Some images stay in your family album. They are souvenirs. And some images, they go into galleries and they hang out in museums. And those photos are art. And behind the camera, each time you may have the same person. It's just the hat changes. And basically, I always consider that when I understood that perfume in a bottle was not art, I said, okay. But I feel being an artist sometimes. So I need to find my way and my playground to be such a person. So I don't care about if she or he is beautiful. Am I creating beautiful moments? It's about the pure emotion of through your nose, you express, you feel emotions. Then I am an artist. Then you, as a visitor or as someone who experiment the perfume, you may pretend that this is art. This is why I started very soon to take out of the perfume out of the bottle.

[Jess]

Right.

[Jen]

When you're doing that, do you not think about that universality thing you thought about before people want to smell beautiful?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, it's not about. You have to. No. Because all of a sudden, it's not about them. It's not about them. It's about me. If I want to express with an artist the blood, the smell of blood, the smell of earth. If I want to express the smell of money with what I did with Sophie Kal 20 years ago. If I want to express the feeling of.

[Jen]

What did you do? Sorry, I'm not familiar. What did you do with Sophie?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Sophie In 2003, she was looking for the smell of money.

[Jess]

And you made it.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

And I was just back from the U.S. i used to live in New York City. And at the time, it was not about the smartphone. It was about the bill. $1 bill, you know, that you had in your hands to pay. You had 20. You. We've done it, okay? To pay the cap. To pay the cap. To pay the hamburger industry to pay the pretzel and the sticky. The sticky $1 bill. Okay? So I was fresh out of New York, and I was like, okay, Sophie, I'm gonna make you the smell. I'm gonna make you smell a $1 bill. So I create a scent that mimics the $1 bill. And she made a whole story about it. And this year, at the end of the year, we'll be celebrating, in a way, my 30th anniversary. So we're doing a big thing in Paris for fall, like a retrospective of my work. And it's retrospective, introspective and futuristic thing about my work. And we are getting back with money. We're Coming back with the smell of money in a different way. And I love doing those things because it's interesting to play with that, to play with scent. It's very interesting.

[Jess]

Well, it feels like a very timely exhibit, so will be very cool. When is that on Paris?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

October 27, for a month in Paris and then we're trying to make it happen in the US as well.

[Jen]

Definitely.

[Jess]

Let us know. We have. Well, we have listeners in Paris too, but certainly a lot of US based listeners.

[Jen]

Yeah. As we're wrapping up here, I'm curious about you personally. You're not always in the work that you create, but what do you, what do you wear on a daily basis? Even that fragrance. Like, how do you like my.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

What is my grooming? What is my favorite products routine? I have a Christophe Robin shampoos is a good friend of mine and he gave me so much product before he left the company and closed his salon. But I have product for years.

[Jen]

So he stockpiled Christopher. Okay. Yes.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

So she. I love Christopher so much. My dermatologist told me just to. I know people are going to scream, but I promise I don't smell. But I don't use much soaps and liquid soaps to under my shower. I just shower twice a day with hot water because my dermatologist told me to. But my, my, the skin is like, the skin is like onions. So you peel every day. And after three weeks, after 21 days, your, your skin is all over, is brand new again. And she told me not to get too much wrinkles, to, to wash, to clean, but not to use too many detergent. So my skin is not.

[Jen]

Your microbiome is very healthy.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yes. And I have to say I don't use any deodorant and I have no body order because my. After a while, after two or three months of this routine, your body starts to change. Of course I use shampoo, but I'm thinking about shower gel. So, so I don't, I use very, very, very, very little product for that. And I don't wear perfumes.

[Jen]

I mean, you can't with your work, right?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, I don't wear perfumes because first of all, I wear. Work in progress. First of all. So work in progress. I wear them during the week, but during the weekend it's a good way also when I create a perfume to see if I have any reactions from the audience I'm meeting. So basically, if I go out during the weekend, if I wear a perfume and if I have no comments, I am depressed.

[Jen]

You want people to talk yeah, don't we all? When we spray something on, like, you kind of want people to say something.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

And if no one tells me that I smell good, it's a disaster for me.

[Jen]

Oh, no.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

So I wear that on the weekends, and when I'm off, I don't wear anything because I'm off.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

And I like. I don't like to wear. To wear perfume myself because I always feel that there is someone in my back or someone around. I don't like that at all. I'm not comfortable. But I love my friends and I love. I love my family to wear perfumes. I love that. I love scented people around me. I really enjoy it.

[Jess]

Me, too.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

But I don't like it myself.

[Jen]

Do you always ask your friends and family, do they ask for your opinion on what they're wearing?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, no, no, no.

[Jess]

Do you give it?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, no, no. Unless I'm asked. Okay. I only give my opinion when I'm asked. On anything. Any matter.

[Jen]

How un American of you.

[Jess]

I know.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

You think so. You think so?

[Jen]

Oh, yeah. We'll give our opinion when no one asks us.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, no, no. I don't like that.

[Jen]

I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but I'm.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, because I am so frank that maybe my friends also don't like.

[Jen]

Do you really want to know? I get what you're saying. Yeah.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

If you're asked, I'm gonna tell you the truth. Yeah, I like that.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

And I think I have good friends because they know that if I. If they ask, it's.

[Jess]

It's real.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yes, it's real. No consensus.

[Jess]

Here comes the wrecking ball.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yeah, yeah. I am like. Are you really sure you want to know?

[Jess]

Oh, my God. Yeah. You know what?

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jess]

Maybe I need more friends like Francis.

[Jen]

You don't think I'm that person for you, Jessica?

[Jess]

You can be. Yeah, you can. Do you want. She goes, do you want advice, or do you want to feel better?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yes. But sometimes it tells the truth. To feel better, most of the time, we need to get the truth. Sometimes it's very hard. And I got that from my ballet lessons and ballet class because basically, when my teacher used to tell. My ballet teacher used to tell me, your best teacher is a mirror. That's very tough.

[Jess]

Your best teacher is a mirror.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

To be better in whatever you do in life, you need to face truth. Otherwise, it doesn't work, at least for me. And I expect that from my friends and even my co workers. When I'm in the studio and we work on the product. If I ask my team, what do you think about the design? I expect, if I ask it. If I ask, I expect to have a fair answer and an honest answer and the truth.

[Jen]

And they know you can handle it. And it doesn't mean you're going to change what you're doing, but you want to hear.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

But it's part of the job, and to handle it is very important. It's very important to me.

[Jess]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Before we let you go.

[Jess]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Jess, do you want to do the Fat Mascara 5 with Francis? This is our little quick, quick round. Quick, quick questions. Quick and cute. Quick and cute.

[Jess]

Okay. What was the first beauty product you fell in love with? Could be a fragrance. Could just be, like, floss.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

The nail polish of my mother.

[Jess]

Oh, what? Just like, on her fingers or like.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

In the bottle on mine?

[Jess]

Oh, so funny. He's. He's. He's fake painting his nails right now. What color was it? That was really cool.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Red, I believe in the 70s it was. Or maybe orange or red something. I don't know. But I loved. She had a beauty. A beauty drawer with all the lipstick and the nail polish. So I guess I stole one.

[Jess]

Oh, my God, that was so cute.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I used to play with dolls. So.

[Jess]

Okay. I've been dying to ask you this. Okay. What is. We could do a whole second, like, bonus episode on this. What is your favorite fragrance ad? You must have so many thoughts on all the. Like, let's see, what Frances.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I think I love Paris by Yves Saint Laurent, the original ad in 1984. Because you see a woman in a car going from the French Riviera up to driving up to Paris with kind of Van Gogh colors all through the. The ad. And all of a sudden, while she arrives in Paris, all of a sudden, she looks in the mirror of the car, of the front mirror in the back. You see that she has two boys, two guys in the back seat. So cool. So cool. It's so French. It's so French. And so. I love it so much. That's a very good ad. That's so smart. So smart and so avant garde.

[Jess]

Oh, my God.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I love it.

[Jess]

Okay. Most indulgent snack.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Snack. Yeah.

[Jess]

Snack. Yeah.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I try not to. I need to. I need to be careful right now. A little bit. But a snack. I love bananas.

[Jess]

That's not very indulgent.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Ah, really? Why?

[Jess]

Oh, my God.

[Jen]

It's too healthy.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I'm French.

[Jess]

I know. This is. That ballet school really, really warmed its brain.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I love overripe bananas.

[Jess]

I have to say, overripe bananas.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Okay. Because they are sweeter.

[Jess]

TV show you're currently watching.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

I love Saturday Night Live. We have them in France. I love it. Because you guys have something that we don't have. Definitely the sense of show, you know.

[Jess]

A sense of show.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Like silliness to be normal. Stage. I remember when I was in New York City when I. I quit ballet when I was 24, and I was at the time in New York City, it was for me, French ballet, French class, French style. And in Broadway City, I had a. I found a class in Broadway City. It was a Romanian teacher. And all the boys, first of all, they were like six or. They were six, two at least. Muscles and big muscles and that. But the way they used. I was like, very delicate and most fragile. But the ways they used to twin and twirl and do their thing was like stage, you know?

[Jess]

Yeah, we don't have. I get it. Like a. Like this kind of thing.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yes. Like you're on stage when you go. Yeah. When you are at the New York City Ballet, when they're on stage, this is America. And you got it. And Saturday Night Live. And you have fun of it. You have joy. And Saturday Night Live, to me, you have that thing and so much fun.

[Jess]

I'm so glad that I never thought of it that way.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Okay.

[Jess]

I'm acting like I have any stake in Saturday Night Live. I'm so glad you like it. Okay, the last thing. What's the last note on your notes app?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

On my notes app? Okay, let me check. No, I think it's about note. Is it something funny, I hope, because sometimes I'm not too private.

[Jen]

I don't know.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

No, I have my journal because I'm writing something. It's about what I'm eating right now, so it's not so much fun. No, my last notes. No, I've. No, not much fun. It's about my diet.

[Jen]

It's his log. It's his food log for his journal.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

From now, it's like one ripe banana. Yeah. No, I have a. Yes. No, it was not fun.

[Jen]

No, but you told us the truth. And that's what you're all about. The truth.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Right. Right now it's all about that. Usually on my notes. No, I don't put. I send myself emails a lot.

[Jess]

Do you?

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yeah, a lot. Yeah. Because I don't have notebooks.

[Jess]

I get it.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

So now it goes all by email. So I can classify. I can. I can find them, I can organize them. I can get themes I love learning.

[Jess]

About other people's like work habits, organizational habits. Everyone's so different.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Yeah. Which is fun.

[Jess]

This was so good. Thank you so much.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Thank you so much. Merci beaucoup. I was a bit scared in a way. I didn't know what to expect. And also the name of your format was a kind of Sounds kind of funny in a way.

[Jen]

We're American. We put on a show. Fat Mascara.

[Jess]

Serious Joyful.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Joyful. Thank you very much. Merci Beaucoup.

[Jess]

We hope you enjoyed the show.

[Jen]

It's your reviews and feedback that help us make the podcast even better. Head over to itunes to rate and review us or email your thoughts to infoatmascara.com we also want to answer your.

[Jess]

Beauty questions and hear what products you love. To share a Razoon product review or to ask a beauty question. Email us at Info Fat Mascara.

[Jen]

If you send it as a voice memo file, we can even share your voice on the podcast. You can also do that by leaving us a voice message. Our phone number in the United States is 646-481-8182.

[Jess]

Thanks so much for listening.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Hey, this is Paige from Giggly Squad and this episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. Nordstrom is here to help you dress in a way that feels totally you. With the best, best spring styles. From boho dresses and matching sets to must have bags and sneakers. Discover thousands of items from lots of your favorite brands like Mango Reformation, Veronica Beard and Farm Rio. It's easy too, with free shipping and returns in store order, pickup and more. Shop today in stores [e-mail] I know.

[Jen]

I'm not alone when I say adulting can be overwhelming. And what we all could use is a drink. That's where Apple, Apple and Eve juice comes in. As the rulers of the juice box, they've been making juice joyful for 50 years with refreshing juice blends bursting with bold flavor. One sip sends you right back to childhood. So when the grind dulls your shine, remember to kid yourself. Apple and Eve has delicious juices for at home and on the go shop. Today.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Jen]

How long was the original director's cut of the substance? It took how many days to shoot the sandworms in Dune part 1 and 2? And why did Brighton beach become the location of this year's best picture winner, Anora? Hi, I'm Daniela Teflin Lunberg and I host Hollywood Gold, a podcast where I interview filmmakers about their iconic films listen every Wednesday as we uncover untold stories and fascinating trivia from this year's Oscar nominees and other legendary movies like Apocalypse Now, Scream, and the Devil Wears Prada.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

All of a sudden, I see Harvey Weinstein marching towards me.

[Jen]

He's over the table. He grabs me by the collar. Oh my God. Subscribe to Hollywood Gold wherever you get your podcasts.

[Francis Kurkdjian]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acest. Com.