The Annual Naughty & Nice (But, But, But!) Special

Summary

Fat Mascara Podcast Episode Summary Episode: The Annual Naughty & Nice (But, But, But!) Special
Release Date: December 18, 2024
Hosts: Jennifer Sullivan & Jessica Matlin

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Introduction to the Naughty & Nice Special

In their annual holiday special, Jennifer Sullivan and Jessica Matlin dive into the "Naughty & Nice" lists, providing a comprehensive year-end wrap-up of beauty trends, news, products, and cultural movements. This episode serves as both an analytical review and a candid discussion of the highs and lows in the beauty industry over the past year.

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Naughty List Highlights

1. Pantone Color of the Year: Mocha Mousse

Timestamp: 03:27 – 07:12

Jessica Matlin opens the Naughty list with the 2024 Pantone Color of the Year, Mocha Mousse. She criticizes the color for being overly beige and unoriginal, likening it to trends seen in past years.

Jessica Matlin:
"It's giving cat food, like underdone chicken, like dirty sheets. It's so beige." [04:29]

Jennifer acknowledges the critique but offers a different perspective, associating the color with "quiet luxury."

Jennifer Sullivan:
"It feels very luxurious... It's elegant. It's not screaming." [05:47]

Despite differing opinions, both hosts express a shared sentiment of the color lacking freshness and forward momentum.

---

2. Lindsay Lohan's New Look

Timestamp: 07:34 – 11:01

The discussion shifts to Lindsay Lohan's recent facial transformation. The hosts express discomfort with the intense media focus on celebrity cosmetic changes, highlighting the societal pressure it creates.

Jennifer Sullivan:
"I don't feel comfortable with where this is going... The conversation is so disproportionate that it concerns me." [09:35]

They debate the implications of viewing a person's appearance as an attainable ideal, questioning the ethical aspects of such societal standards.

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3. AI in the Beauty Industry

Timestamp: 25:14 – 37:00

Jessica delves into the integration of Artificial Intelligence (AI) within the beauty sector, presenting it as a double-edged sword. She highlights innovative uses of AI, such as mapping odors for fragrance development and analyzing the skin microbiome for skincare advancements.

Jessica Matlin:
"There's a company now. I mean, like, I don't. I didn't feel like blowing your mind with all of the research." [28:35]

However, the hosts also critique AI's role in artistic aspects of beauty, cautioning against its potential to create derivative and less authentic content.

Jennifer Sullivan:
"I hope it's used for good." [32:10]

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4. TikTok's Influence and Microtrends

Timestamp: 43:00 – 48:26

The hosts discuss the rapid rise of microtrends driven by platforms like TikTok. They express concern over the pressure consumers face to constantly update their beauty and fashion choices, leading to feelings of inadequacy and financial strain.

Jennifer Sullivan:
"I don't want this chemistry of creator to person, to viewer to make them feel like they're out of touch, out of style, or like soon to be out of money because of a video they saw." [45:02]

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5. "Ancestral Beauty" and DIY Cosmetics

Timestamp: 45:04 – 49:46

Jessica introduces the trend of "Ancestral Beauty," where individuals create their own beauty products at home. While celebrating the ingenuity behind it, she points out the potential health risks due to lack of professional formulation.

Jessica Matlin:
"It's a naughty because... you have to be careful. There's a big farm... they just got pulled because some of their milk tested positive for AVN flu." [48:26]

Jennifer echoes the concern, emphasizing the dangers of believing that homemade products are inherently safer or more authentic.

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Nice List Highlights

1. Contrast Makeup Theory

Timestamp: 11:39 – 14:34

Jennifer and Jessica explore the emerging "Contrast Makeup Theory," which focuses on adjusting makeup based on an individual's natural facial contrast levels. This approach aims to enhance personal features rather than adhere to one-size-fits-all beauty standards.

Jessica Matlin:
"It's more about how you can work with your face to adjust your contrast to give a look." [12:02]

They commend the theory for making makeup more inclusive and empowering for diverse beauty profiles.

2. Normalization of Breast Reduction Surgery

Timestamp: 14:15 – 22:57

Jennifer discusses a New York Times article on the increasing popularity of breast reduction surgery among younger women. She appreciates the shift towards normalizing such procedures, emphasizing women reclaiming agency over their bodies.

Jennifer Sullivan:
"I'm glad to see that breast reduction surgery is becoming more normalized because... it's truly the best thing that's ever happened to me." [19:35]

The hosts highlight personal empowerment and the desire to feel comfortable and unobjectified as primary motivations behind the trend.

3. Movie "Substance" and Aging in Beauty

Timestamp: 32:36 – 36:33

Jennifer praises the film "Substance," starring Demi Moore, for its brave exploration of aging and the beauty industry's hypocritical standards. The movie is lauded for its tasteful handling of body horror elements and its commentary on women's value beyond physical appearance.

Jennifer Sullivan:
"It's so thought-provoking... what people do to themselves every second of the day in the name of beauty." [34:15]

4. Inclusion of New Contributors and Perspectives

Timestamp: 39:30 – 42:13

The finale section celebrates the addition of new contributors and guest co-hosts to the podcast, enriching the conversation with diverse viewpoints, particularly from male perspectives on beauty trends and plastic surgery.

Jessica Matlin:
"It's been helpful to me to have a male perspective on some of the beauty trends we talk about." [40:12]

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Special Moment: Jennifer Aniston's Audio Message

Timestamp: 50:07 – 53:08

In a delightful surprise, the hosts receive an audio message from Jennifer Aniston, thanking them for attending a spa event and expressing enthusiasm for future collaborations. This unexpected interaction adds a heartwarming and personal touch to the episode.

Jennifer Aniston (Audio Message):
"I'm so happy to hear that you love the glossing detangler as much as I do... I promise I will never stop making it." [50:16]

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Concluding Remarks and New Year Wishes

Timestamp: 52:13 – 53:08

As the episode wraps up, Jennifer and Jessica extend their gratitude to listeners, contributors, and new members on their Nice lists. They share their excitement for the upcoming year, hinting at new content and continued discussions on evolving beauty trends.

Jessica Matlin:
"It's been fun. I cannot believe it's been a year." [53:01]

---

Notable Quotes

• Jessica Matlin on Mocha Mousse:
  "It's giving cat food... it's so beige." [04:29]

• Jennifer Sullivan on Pantone's Choice:
  "I like the color, but I do feel like, in that little square thing, without seeing, like the fabrication, it doesn't feel nice." [06:23]

• Jessica Matlin on Contrast Makeup Theory:
  "It's educating, and I like that she's trying to let us in on the secret." [13:51]

• Jennifer Sullivan on Breast Reduction Surgery:
  "Girls want to feel like girls. They don't want to grow up faster and they don't want to be in women's bodies before their time." [21:00]

• Jessica Matlin on DIY Cosmetics Danger:
  "You just have to be careful... it's on my naughty list because... you have to be careful." [48:26]

---

Conclusion

This special episode of Fat Mascara offers a thorough examination of the year's beauty landscape, balancing critiques with commendations. Through their Naughty and Nice lists, Jennifer and Jessica provide insightful reflections and foster meaningful conversations about the evolving definitions of beauty, the impact of technology, and the importance of personal agency.

For more detailed discussions and to stay updated with the latest in beauty culture, listeners are encouraged to subscribe to Fat Mascara on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or their preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

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[Jessica Matlin]

It's the most wonderful time of the year.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

It's good. It's a great time of year.

[Jessica Matlin]

I'm so excited. Welcome everybody. Welcome to Fat Mascara. It's a podcast about beauty culture hosted.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

By me, Jennifer Sullivan and me, Jessica Matlin. Full names today. Full names.

[Jessica Matlin]

That's right.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Because it is full throttle.

[Jessica Matlin]

Our annual Naughty and Nice.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Which list will you be on? We actually don't name like proper names. Like we're not stupid.

[Jessica Matlin]

Don't worry if you're new to the show. We know we have some new people because I've been getting all your comments and your likes and your subscribes. Thank you. Here's the deal. I don't know when we started doing this. Naughty and Nice is our annual holiday special. It's an end of the year wrap up. It is. You get two to the top minds in beauty here to analyze the trends of the year. Also, we just get to bitch and moan to each other about like things we liked and didn't like in real time. This is yes, your end of year trend recap which might send you into 2025 with some ideas about beauty. But like news stories, products, trends, movements, episodes. We did things that speak to us, that make us happy this holiday season that make us maybe not so happy this holiday season.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

It's the time to get reflective. I don't know about you, but like I get a little reflective at the end of the year for or worse. What about for Jess?

[Jessica Matlin]

Fall is for organizing.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Fall is for organizing.

[Jessica Matlin]

December's for reflection.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, I'm summer. I'm not sure what summer is about. Summer's for complaining. And spring. Spring is where I get energetic in spring.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah. Okay.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, there you go.

[Jessica Matlin]

So we're gonna do this similarly to last years or the way you might have heard it before. Jess and I are both bringing a naughty and a nice list. We have about. I have like five or so on my list.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Are they even naughty? Are they split?

[Jessica Matlin]

Well, they can't be. The number 5 does not split evenly about or you like with 2 naughty and 3 nice. How about you?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I tilted More naughty this year. But I don't.

[Jessica Matlin]

You're more balanced.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, yeah. We as a group are balanced.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah. As a team, you guys, we really planned this and obviously we've reviewed all of this with each other. But no, that's the fun of naughty and nice. We don't compare notes beforehand, so we might end up with some of the things that are the same. But it's just going to be a blast. Buckle up. There's so much. And just so you know, Housekeeping. This is our last episode of 2024. We will have amazing best of Fat mascara interviews coming through the holidays to keep you entertained. And then we'll be back in January with all new news episodes with me and Jess on Wednesdays, Fridays for interviews. And our lovely contributors, Julian Garrett joining us sometimes on Wednesdays.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Very excited about some of our special guests for next year. So, okay, let's hop to it. Let's just, let's get to it. I want to. I want to know what's on your list.

[Jessica Matlin]

Foreign.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

What is in your Santa stack? Your Santa. What is in your Santa sack? Kick it off. Jen, is it a naughty or a nice?

[Jessica Matlin]

I. I think I'll kick off with a naughty because I think you're gonna have thoughts and they might be nice. I don't know. Let's see. Something we haven't had a chance to talk about yet, which is very much happening in 2024 right now is the pantone color of the year for next year, the prediction, which comes out in 2024. So this just dropped.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Jessica Matlin]

Did you see it?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I did. We were talking about at the office the other day, we were talking about.

[Jessica Matlin]

To talk about, in beauty and fashion, the color of the year is mocha mousse. I feel like I'm on las coltristas. I'm about to give my like 30 second rant. But here is why it's on my naughty list. It's giving cat food, like underdone chicken, like dirty sheets. It's so beige. And if you would like me to be a little bit more helpful in my critical analysis, I figured if you.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Want to be a little bit more vulgar, a little bit more.

[Jessica Matlin]

No disgustingly vulgarity. Okay, here's my issue. I don't think it's new. I don't think it's fresh and forward looking. My issue with this color is it feels very much like the brown lip liner trend of 2024. Very nice trend, by the way. That would be on the nice list if I was making extras. And it Feels like skims. Color palette that's been hot for the last three, that mauvy beige Y.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

You think it's reactive? You don't think it's forward looking?

[Jessica Matlin]

That's why they pay you the big bucks, Matlin. That's exactly it. I didn't know how to put it into words. I think it's not forward looking enough, and I don't love the color.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I get it. I get it. I also think on the note of it being, like, very reactive to me, it feels very. And slap me with the noodle for saying this, but it's like quiet luxury.

[Jessica Matlin]

You know, a mocha mousse colored noodle. Yeah.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Well, first of all, I think the mousse is. I like mousse. I love. Personally, I love any chocolate mousse. I love that kind of dessert. But, like, mousse and that color and like, without context, it's giving. My cat has ibs, which she does.

[Jessica Matlin]

And you thought I was vulgar, but I said cat food. It's like. Yeah, it's just so.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I don't think anyone is going to ever forgive me for sharing that information.

[Jessica Matlin]

No, I'm sorry about your cat, but.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Like, by the way, but the thing is, I do love that color, and I think a lot of the fashion crowd loves that color because it is luxury. It is like, if you look at Zara for the past, like, year, it's like, all shades of that color because it feels very elegant. Luxury. It's not screaming.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah, but oxblood is luxury.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jessica Matlin]

There's other luxury colors.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I like the color, but I do feel like, in that little square thing, without seeing, like, the fabrication, it doesn't feel feel nice. It's just like. Yeah, so I'm with you. I'm with you.

[Jessica Matlin]

All right.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I do, like, in the past, we were scrolling through, like, a women's. Rhode had like, a nice, you know, through the years, you know, like, different pantone. They've had some great ones, like the yellow, which came out of nowhere, or like the ultraviolet or, like, going back. It even had some, like, gray, like, things that made you think. And, oh, my cat is in the background right now. She's like, I heard you talking. That isn't. That was nobody's business.

[Jessica Matlin]

She's skulking off.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, she. She's like, do her business. Cats do know. They do know when you're talking about them.

[Jessica Matlin]

Well, she didn't like it.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I'm sorry. It's so sad. By the way, if anyone's to offline about that, so I feel like. No, it's so. It's so upsetting. Yeah, it just. It's not giving beauty, and I think it's too late to give fashion. Yeah, but look, we're talking about it, like, I go on for another 10 minutes. But anyway, I wanted to put it.

[Jessica Matlin]

On my naughty list, and I also wanted to know what you thought about it, and spot on. We're in agreement.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, we're the same. But I look forward to what they do every year, so keep going. Pantone. I love what you do.

[Jessica Matlin]

Nice list. Pantone. Doing it. Color of the year.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Not exactly Mocha Moose.

[Jessica Matlin]

This colors.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

If you're not familiar with this franchise, we can't go full whole hog on anything. We always have, like, a but, but, but.

[Jessica Matlin]

Okay, welcome. All right, your turn. What's up next?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

All right, so on my naughty list, you knew this was going to come up, so let's just get out of the way. The constant discussion about Lindsay Lohan's new face.

[Jessica Matlin]

Like, on fat mascara last week.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, I know you guys talked about it, so I don't want to, like, belabor the point, but she looks amazing. Yes. I want to know everything. I love Lindsay Lohan. Does she look like how she used to? I'm not here to, like, dissect this or judge and all this stuff, but I've never heard, like, besides the obvious, major current events, which we, like, do not need to go into, this is not a political show. But is it? Is it not okay? That can be debated.

[Jessica Matlin]

Beauty culture touches on that sometimes. It has to. Yeah.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I feel like it's sort of. And I don't want to redo everything you guys said, but, like, I've never seen so many people. It's almost like the Willy Wonka golden ticket came out. And, like, every woman is clamoring to be like, where can I find this? Or, like, they want to be. It used to be, like, when, like, Jane Fonda got a new face. I don't know if she's ever admitted to it, but, like, when Jane Fonda clearly had something done or like, Demi Moore. We'll get to her in a little while. When Demi.

[Jessica Matlin]

When she got ripped for GI Jane.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

She came out, like, on the Runway or like, that actually was a little bit recent. But, like, when these women came out and they looked so different, or like Renee Zellweger, when she had clearly something done, it wasn't immediately aspirational. It was like, this person had that thing done. We can converse about it, but it wasn't like, I will Sell my soul or give me the number or if only me. And now I hear not only people who are, like, in my age group or even 20 years older, but even girls who are, like, 20 years younger than me lusting after this. And I'm just not comfortable with where this is going. And, yes, I don't expect everyone to be talking about the Sudan in the same way that they're talking about this, but the conversation is so disproportionate that it concerns me.

[Jessica Matlin]

Okay, so naughty is not Lindsay Lohan's new face. It's the way we all are reacting to Lindsay's new face.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

It's like we want it in this way. And I'm saying we. I don't mean every person listening.

[Jessica Matlin]

We. The collective.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

The collective. I know. Not everyone. Somebody, like, I don't give a crap. Or they might not think she looks great. I don't know. It's almost like this is attainable. Give me the number.

[Jessica Matlin]

Like, it's an it bag when it's a human anatomy.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

That's it.

[Jessica Matlin]

And she's also objectifying it. Like it's a purchasable item instead of a person.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

And she's also not old. That's the thing. She's not old.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah. Yeah. I could say so much more, but I feel like I'd be on the naughty list if I kept talking about it.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

No, but it's like a bellwether. And, like, there's so many other big things happening in the culture. Not beauty culture, just the culture. Things that are crazy important.

[Jessica Matlin]

But maybe that's it, Jess. Maybe it is because all of the bad things happening in the world, all of the wars, the economy, things that people are worried about, we need something.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

The distraction.

[Jessica Matlin]

Stupid distraction. And if it's Lindsay Lohan's face, you.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Know, otherwise, we have to look at something beautiful. We have to need the distraction. It's like RuPaul says, like, if you look at the darkness too much, you'll die. So look at, like, the magic and the beauty. We need to look at Lindsay Lohan.

[Jessica Matlin]

Is that what Paul saying? I love that. Oh, no.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

It's a beautiful quote. He is somebody who I would die to have in the podcast.

[Jessica Matlin]

Not quoting perfectly, but just the sentiment.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, but I don't think we can ignore. And I get worried sometimes on this show, and I wonder if people who, like. If they don't like me and they listen to the show, but they put up with me. I wonder if I sound annoying because I'm so kind of. But there are Big problems. And it's like, well, yeah, there are always gonna be big problems, but you cannot deny that there is an insane amount of focus on stuff like that right now.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah. And like I said, and maybe that is because there are big problems.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

So it's interesting. I'm not agreeing with it. I think it's a good theory, though. Okay.

[Jessica Matlin]

Okay. So two naughties. Should I go nice then? I guess go nice.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

By the way, I do think she looks amazing and I would love to know who did her work because I'm not a vital.

[Jessica Matlin]

A nice. Do you want my. My nerdy science corner nice or a. A more. Or. Or a more artsy nice? I have two.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

My brain hurts. Go artsy.

[Jessica Matlin]

Okay, let's go artsy. I want to give a nice to contrast makeup theory. Have you been clocking this trend, Jess?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

What?

[Jessica Matlin]

There contrast makeup. This is why you come to our podcast. So there is. This started, like, early. She's been doing it for a while. This is. It's really picked up steam lately. There's this makeup artist in France. Her name's Alien or. And her whole TikTok is about describing people's contrast of their faces. So if you're a low contrast person, your lips, eyebrows, eyes, skin are sort of very similar in tone. Medium contrast, somewhere in the middle. A high contrast person might have dark skin, platinum blonde hair or fair skin, dark hair, strong brows. Okay, you get the idea. So she has a filter that she allows people to, like, put over them and puts them in black and white and lets you kind of see, oh, I'm a high contrast person. When you put me in black and white, I'm black and white. Whereas a low contrast person in black and white has a wash of grays. You get the idea. So then when she talks about makeup, it's not prescriptive. It's not like, high contrast person, wear blue. It's more about how you can work with your face to, like, adjust your contrast to give a look. Like, a high contrast person often looks great in a really strong red lip because it balances winter.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Is this like just winter spring?

[Jessica Matlin]

No, because you could be platinum blonde but have tan skin, you have more contrast, but you might be a spring. You know what I'm saying? It's not. She mentions the season color theories sometimes as she's talking about it. But the two reasons I really like this are. One, you know how we always talk about how when makeup artists do makeup, they just have this thing, they look at a face and they just kind of know and like, it's hard to get them to put that into words. How many makeup artists have we interviewed where we're like, but how do you know?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, I think they just kind of. It's a sensibility.

[Jessica Matlin]

It's a sensibility of, like, balance the way an artist proportions, all that. What I really like is trying to teach you kind of how her brain's working when she's looking at a face.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Okay.

[Jessica Matlin]

This is. She put it into a very, you know, regimented thing, because it probably plays well on the Internet, but it's not so prescriptive in, like, a TikTok trend where I'm putting, like, a serum drip on my face. She's educating, and I like that she's trying to let us in on the secret. The other thing I like, Jess, you don't have to buy anything. It's playing with the makeup you have in new ways and using it to your advantage.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I'm trying it.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah. I don't know what I'm getting out of it. I think I already kind of looked at my own face the way that she talks about. But I think it's really good for people that are new to makeup or still trying around with makeup or who've their looks have changed. Maybe you dyed your hair and you're like, something's off with my makeup right now, and I'm not sure what it is. Maybe your contrast level changed when you dyed your hair.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Well, I have to. I have to say. And this is not this woman, but this is, like, what I think she's getting at. I remember Trini Woodall, who I think is one of the most genius people I've ever encountered. She said that women often do their makeup. Like, she came up with her line for a lot of reasons, but one of them was, like, she often meets a lot of women in their late 30s, 40s, 50s, who they're like, my look doesn't look right anymore. And why they're doing their makeup, why it doesn't look right is because their contrast levels on. I don't know if she used that term, but have changed because they're. Jen, we were just talking about this right before the podcast. Like, your brows change, even your lashes.

[Jessica Matlin]

Your skin's getting a little darker. Cause you have some pigmentation to your skin, but your hair's getting lighter. Cause some grays are going in.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Right? All of that. Your lip line sure as hell changes. Jane Fonda's.

[Jessica Matlin]

Your lips aren't as rosy and dark as they were when you were younger.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah. But you're doing your makeup the way you did when you felt your. Frankly, your hottest. Right. So maybe not everyone, but some people felt. Felt really hot when they were in their twenties. They felt their best or your peak.

[Jessica Matlin]

Contrast level or whatever it is.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah. I feel like always try to make sure everyone's included. But basically, most people feel like they're best in their 20s and 30s. They're most conventionally hottest. And then things change. So you're still doing your cat eye, your blush, whatever, your full face to foundation, and then that contrast does not work as your contrast levels change. So Trini is, like, changing the way people do their makeup, and they might not need 7 pounds of eyeliner anymore or whatever. I sure don't.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yes. Making my nice even nicer. I hadn't even thought of the aging discussion in that.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I was just.

[Jessica Matlin]

Her theory applies to everybody of all ages, especially even when you're younger and first learning how to do makeup. You haven't been staring at your face for 20 years. You're just getting to know your features in that way. And I think there's people like her, like Trinny, that are really good at telling you their secret sauce. And I love people like that who don't gatekeep. But they also are really good at putting into words their artistry and, like, how it's happening. So I encourage you to check out our site. I'll link to it. Cause, as you know, we always link to everything. But just this whole idea of contrast theory, I feel like we're gonna see more of that, because I like that makeup plays with that, and I think it's a nice way to think about it. That makes it easier and more inclusive and more fun.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, I'm gonna get into that. I'm really gonna start a little bit.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yes, let's get into it. Also, she has a pleasing French accent. So, you know, like, anything she says, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's true. Cause she's saying it with a French accent.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Does not. All right. I feel like I need to do a nice. Okay. Because I feel like I have, like, a little too many naughty. All right. So there was a piece in the times, and, like, 75 people sent it to me. It was like a podcast episode, but it was also in the magazine as well. It was called the Appeal of the Smaller Breast. Why are increasing numbers of younger women undergoing the cosmetic reduction surgery? So, basically, there's been a big spike. This article ran in November. Well, for me, I've talked about this in the pod. I wrote about this in Cosmo. This is so old hat for me. But they talked about it being. This sounds obnoxious, it's old hat. But it's like every day girls go through puberty and they get breasts and they either they're comfortable with it, they go all shapes and sizes, but a lot of people are uncomfortable with it. And I'm happy to see that breast reduction surgery is becoming more normalized because When I was 13, 14, it was the kitchen phone on the wall and my mom talking to a friend of a friend who knew somebody whose now 25 year old daughter had rest reduction surgery on Long island. And then she was gonna tell me, you know, like if she survived. And it was such a, a little bit more not common. So I've clearly, if you know the context clues, I've had it. And it was truly the best thing that's ever happened to me. I mean obviously, besides like having my daughter and all that, you know, good stuff. But like one of the best things that I've ever done. The way the article is positioned and. Sorry, I think it's actually just a straight podcast, but I remember seeing it like on the site and everything. But do listen to the podcast if you're interested. The way it was positioned is like women are taking back the male gaze. Fashion is different now, like since the pandemic. It's really good. Like the way that it's set up and produced is really good. It was like people are not wearing bras anymore, soft cups. Like they do the whole cultural like magazine style. These are the different factors. Women don't want to be objectified in the same way. All of that stuff is good and true. But at the end it was like, but there could be another reason. And it was like young women don't want to feel sexualized. And it's like to me that's like the top banana. That's like, that should be like numero uno. You're a young person, you don't want to feel like a.

[Jessica Matlin]

Looked at.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Exactly. So the back pain, the running, all of these things were like reason number one. Reason number two, no, I feel this is still a nice. Okay, this is still a nice column, but I feel like the first thing should be that girls should be girls. Girls want to feel like girls. They don't want to grow up faster and they don't want to be in women's bodies before their time. And another thing I loved in the piece was every single person. I felt so like I've never heard this before. It Was amazing to hear. It was like the people who got breast reductions, their first thing was like, they couldn't wait to go to a store and buy a regular bra, just like a normal bra. I remember telling my mom, maybe even my dad, I can't wait to go to a store and buy a stupid cotton bra that has, like, popcorn on it or some kind of dumb print.

[Jessica Matlin]

Versus, like, you know, the over the shoulder Boulder hole.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Exactly. It's like something for, like, a woman, like, you know, like a grandma.

[Jessica Matlin]

Was this all aimed at young people getting breast reduction surgery or just. I think.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I think it was just breast reduction surgery.

[Jessica Matlin]

You're just speaking with that lens because you had it when you were a teenager, but.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yes, but I think that they were talking about. Yeah, they were talking about young people, especially.

[Jessica Matlin]

Okay.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

But it was everybody. But I was really surprised by how that first. That bit about people not wanting to be looked at was sort of like, at the end of the piece. Right.

[Jessica Matlin]

Well, for you it was like a primary. But it might be different for everyone, the reasons they do it. Yeah, I like that they went into that. The reasons aren't the same for everybody who's.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

No, they're not. And they're not the same. For some people, it is like, excruciating back pain or it could be. Who knows? Whatever. Every. It's a very personal decision. But when I saw this article, I was like, I'm glad that this is no longer kind of a like, oh, she's doing what? Yeah, I'm glad to see it's on the rise. And I'm really hoping that. I mean, I know that certainly medical insurance is a hot topic right now.

[Jessica Matlin]

Right. I love that. Just one question. It's the appeal of the small breast. Singular is the title. Here's why I'm asking, like, you know, it's singular.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

It is singular.

[Jessica Matlin]

So fashion, which speaks to me of who. Yeah, it's like a pant. Like, it's. So fashion speaks to make it a singular. But it also makes it less medical and more about, like, the feelings behind it and the fashion of the time and the cultural trends of the time than if it were, like, breasts. Which sounds like something from sex ed class.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

That is. No, that is a really astute observation.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah, that's what you come to fat mascara for.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah. Of the breasts. As if it's a fashion item. And it also kind of makes it like, the object. Objectify.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah, it does objectify a bit. But I think the reasoning might be because we're not just talking about anatomy. We're talking about all the psychology and the cultural aspects that go into it.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

And listen, there are a lot of people who are very happy that who would never like, they're like, I'm so comfortable with my larger breasts, but I'm so just the more converse. If I saw this article when I was younger, I would have been taping it up on the refrigerator.

[Jessica Matlin]

I know. The more we can talk about things that are taboo to make people feel better about their bodies. Nice, nice, nice all the way.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah. So big nice, big nice. New York Times.

[Jessica Matlin]

I love that. All right, let's take a quick break. I think we got through four already. We'll take a quick break and we'll be back. Jess, you ever notice how your skin sort of changes in the winter?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Sure.

[Jessica Matlin]

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[Jennifer Sullivan]

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[Jessica Matlin]

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[Jessica Matlin]

Okay, we're back from the break. So, Jess, you got a little Diet Coke? Are you ready for my science?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Just want you refreshed this holiday season. I mean, it's go, go, go.

[Jessica Matlin]

It's go, go, go.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Right?

[Jessica Matlin]

Let's get naughty, shall we?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I feel like disproportionately naughty this episode, so I. Sorry if I sound like a negative Nancy.

[Jessica Matlin]

We just ended on a high note.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I know, but I only have a pack full of naughties.

[Jessica Matlin]

Well, it is what it is. Oh, wait, no, mine's a nice.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Oh, good. Okay.

[Jessica Matlin]

It's a nice. It's a nice. Okay. This year, AI and beauty was huge. Now, I did at first. I did it first struggle. Is this naughty or nice? It's very much nice. Because I want to come at this the way one of my favorite episodes of the year came at it, which was my interview with Alex Box and talking about the future of tech and how we cannot not let the human be in technology. Fabulous episode. I'll link to it if you want to. Listen to her. She's more eloquent than I will ever be. But it was a huge year for AI and beauty. And I'll just give you two highlights that both happen to be scientific. Of things that happened in. In Beauty this year, one is there's a start. I think we talked about this in the news. There was a startup, osmo. They use Google Cloud's AI technology to generate smells. Like we generate images and sounds. And the CEO of this company, his name's Alex Wichko, he explains. This is just so interesting to me with smell, we have been missing something. The other senses have a map. Color has a map. Represented by the axis is red, green, blue. Sounds are mapped by frequency, low to high. Nothing similar has existed for odors. So he's using. His company, is using AI technology to map odors and also identify odors. Did you know there's thought to be. Wait, this is crazy to me. 40 billion molecules that have a scent. 40 billion have we.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

How many have we smelled? Like, how many?

[Jessica Matlin]

In a lifetime, 100 million can be identified. So that's 0.25%. So we haven't even cracked the surface. Where.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Where are the other ones? Like, they've just not been smelled or.

[Jessica Matlin]

They haven't been created. Like, if. If a scientist makes a new molecule, you know, they combine this and this and now we have a new polypeptide. It might have a scent, right?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Does Fermanish know about this?

[Jessica Matlin]

Yes. I'm sure you know what you're using AI at all of the fragrance houses, but I thought this one was especially interesting. The other thing was in skincare, it's been alluded to for a while, like, oh, AI in skincare. And I think some of the brands are just, like, pretending they're using AI. We used AI and like, they just throw it in there. It sounds high tech. And all they have is, like, test your own.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Who would do such a thing?

[Jessica Matlin]

Skin dryness at home. I'm like, how is that AI? Like, there's no machine learning involved in that. You just sent in a swab from your cheek. Anyway, so the place where this will be the most interesting to me is the microbiome. Because I reported on this for a while, and all the experts I've ever talked to about the skin microbiome point out that when you have acne and other diseases microbiome, they see trends. Like, the person with this acne has a microbiome that's high in X bacteria. The person with early dark spots has a microbiome that's low in this bacteria. But there are millions of bacteria and there's millions of people. So there's no way to know yet which bacteria do what. However, AI is working on that. And there's one company now. I mean, like, I don't. I didn't feel like blowing your mind with all of the research.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

This one's like, jen, please don't blow my mind.

[Jessica Matlin]

I just love the idea we could be using this to help people get better skin. But, for example, there's this company. Hello, Biome. It's a B2B company, but basically they are. They're helping brands use this. They use AI technology to study the microbiome so that, for example, a brand could do a clinical study without ever having to use humans.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Okay, now I'm interested.

[Jessica Matlin]

And finally, the last thing you'll be really interested. I literally, on my notes for this. It's so fun. I have highlighted really big. Jess, I know you'll like this one. In case I have lost you in the first two minutes of me describing AI, I have a note with your name in it to, like, draw you back in. Here's what I think you're gonna most like about this. We'll be able to develop human skin models. Why? And animal skin models. Why? So that we could finally do away with animal testing forever. I interviewed Krupa Kostaline this year.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Can I wait, Can I pause for. They have. They have models that are like, not animal skin, that are just like animal skin. Like those exist already.

[Jessica Matlin]

They do. However, for example, in Europe, there are still cases where if a new ingredient is developed for skincare and there is not yet a history of clinicals behind it to do the efficacy safety testing, it's possible they might still have to use animals. Oh, I interviewed Krupa Kostaline. She's this cosmetic chemist.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

They have to. Or that's what they have decided.

[Jessica Matlin]

No, they have to in order to get EU approval. If it's a particular type of ingredient, it doesn't happen often and it's for new things that maybe haven't been used in cosmetics before, but it's been expensive. A, so the prices are coming down. But B, it's just not just for animal testing, but it's for anything. So you want to do. Find a claim like, how many people thought this was moisturizing. You don't have to bring humans in. You'll be able to use this model. And the way they're developing them is with AI. So that I'm not going to get. You know what, I lost you. But just. I'll just say AI. I'm not going to get into how the machine learns and tries and whatever.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

You didn't lose me. I just literally adjusted in my seat.

[Jessica Matlin]

I thought you'd like, though, that this is going to be the reason. I think that we'll finally be done with the animal testing for safety.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I certainly hope so. And I do question whether or not these companies have to. Or it's them.

[Jessica Matlin]

No, they staying with what? They're not going to get like EU approval for sale on their new ingredient.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

No, I know that. I'm not saying that the companies can bypass that. I'm talking about the regulatory bodies.

[Jessica Matlin]

Right. Well, no, it's also that they just don't want to do the work. They just. They're like, give me what I know, which is study.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Exactly, Exactly. That's what I mean. Yeah.

[Jessica Matlin]

The slightly only naughty thing I'm going to say about AI. Did you see the most recent Vogue digital cover? It literally just came out like last week.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I did.

[Jessica Matlin]

Here's the thing about AI that I don't love it for. I love it in this science stuff. I still am wary of it in art and here's why. When people looked at that cover, a lot of people are like, it's giving AI. And it's funny to me that this Was. It wasn't developed by AI, but it's become synonymous with kind of rigurd, agur tated slightly.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

That cover was not AI. Correct.

[Jessica Matlin]

It wasn't.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, but.

[Jessica Matlin]

But, like, it's funny to me that people called that out, because AI does create these kind of images that are just derivative, frankly. Say what you will about that cover.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I think there's a lot of other problems in AI besides being a derivative and AI being derivative.

[Jessica Matlin]

Right. So I don't want to give it all nice, because, as you know, with this. With this franchise, Jess and I have developed Always Naughty with a little bit of nice. So I'm curious to see how artists will use AI going forward. But I'm giving a nice to how scientists in beauty are using AI.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I hope it's used for good. So how about that?

[Jessica Matlin]

Yup.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

That's my final thought on that. Okay, let me do a nice, because I feel. Did I do. Oh, I already did a nice. Okay, I'll do another nice. I'll do another nice. Why not? I really think Demi Moore is just getting better with age.

[Jessica Matlin]

Wait, you started out with Lindsay Lohan. I was talking about her face as a naughty. But now. Now we're just equally objectifying Demi Moore and saying she's.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

No, it's better because I thought her project, the substance was really. I think brave is one of those words. It's like, you're so brave, and it's like, you didn't, like, strap on some, like, boots and go into, like, the Ukraine. Okay. Like, she's not brave in that way.

[Jessica Matlin]

Okay.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

But I thought it was a really cool movie, a really cool topic, and. Yeah, like, is she still a gorgeous woman who's clearly genetically blessed? I was trying to find, like, a nice way to say, like, she's genetically blessed, and she's had some help. Okay.

[Jessica Matlin]

Oh, okay.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Genetically essence. She's had some help. I don't think there's. I don't think I'm going too far by saying that, but I think she tackled a topic that we talk about all the time, even, like, five minutes ago on this episode of, like. It's really complicated to age as a woman. I think the beauty industry is incredibly hypocritical. And the substance, if you haven't seen it, can get it on Amazon Prime. And I think it might be in theaters, too. I don't know if you select theaters, but it's easy to stream. It's a cool movie. It's directed by a woman. I also think that definitely has a hand in how the subject matter is dealt with. And it talks about how women are discarded in entertainment, but just, like, in a visual field. And I think it's cool. And I don't think you see a lot of that done in a really tasteful way. And then the genre is like, body horror, which is.

[Jessica Matlin]

Garrett and I have talked about this multiple times over the year. Not just this, but also when we were talking about Sunset Boulevard and a bunch of other creative endeavors this year that spoke to that moment for a woman when the beauty is waning, culturally speaking.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

So, yeah, yeah, like, what is your value as a woman once your currency, which no one likes to talk about. What part of your currency? Certainly, I don't believe that your currency is your look. But cultural currency, especially in entertainment, is waning. So I'm looking at this and I'm in the mood. You know, I don't like stuff like gore. I don't like weird body horror stuff. I was like, how am I going to watch this? But I was like, I'll, like, put my eye. Hands over my eyes for some of it. So I felt like it was important for the show, so for you guys. So I'm like, she did it for you. I did, I did, I did. I was like, I need to see what's going on. And I'm looking. I was like, oh, my God, I'm not giving anything away. But I was like, things happen to her body that are very surreal, very surrealist and watching it. And I'm like, this is horrible. Like, there's needles. And I'm like, wait a second. And I don't think I'm reading too deep. I think it's like, duh, Jess, this is the point. Look at what people do to themselves every second of the day in the name of beauty. Cutting themselves open, getting the needles, having a thing injected into your lip. It was so thought provoking. And I just hope we see more of this sort of thing. Maybe not the substance too, but, like, just more of this subject matter and more. We see great actresses like Nicole Kidman keep turning out incredible work. More women just like, boom, going right into it. Like, as they. I say, age. What are they, 50s, 60s?

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah, I think it's funny. Not funny, it's interesting. That's juxtaposed with your Lindsay Lohan. It's like two sides of the same coin. It's like the not nice aspect of objectifying the work people get done, but then this is the creative side where you're talking about the objectifying of the work people get done and that you're going to give a nice to.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

What do you mean?

[Jessica Matlin]

Like, the naughty is objectifying the work that gets done. The nice is being able to talk about the fact that we're objectifying it so we can unpack it together, I think.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I'm not. I'm not giving a nice to. Like, Demi Moore's amazing.

[Jessica Matlin]

Like, no, you're giving a nice surgery to the cultural criticism. Yes.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, yeah, I'm giving a nice to. I'm giving a nice to, like. Yeah, she's going into these projects. She's like, oh, I'm not just gonna look amazing and, you know, go to premieres. She's doing her best work or some of her best work. And yet taking these topics head on. She's not just.

[Jessica Matlin]

It's interesting. Those topics are so popular right now too, isn't it?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Jessica Matlin]

And for good reason.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

And another just. I'm gonna put a little cap on it.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

The other day.

[Jessica Matlin]

A little Santa cap.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

A little Santa cap.

[Jessica Matlin]

Keeping it holiday.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I went to the Beauty Inc. Awards the other day and the. It's like a. The Pete Bourne, I think it was, Impact Award. So basically the big award of the day was given to Bobby Brown. I know I mentioned Bobby Brown the other day recently. So I feel like Bobby's getting a lot of airtime on the show recently. But Bobby got this award and she was talking to Jenny Fine and Jenny's like, you know, why are you doing so much? Or, you know, you keep on doing all these projects, like, you know, what do you. What keeps you going? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And what have you learned? And Bobby said, I've learned that age means nothing. And I loved that. And she was just talking about how she's doing her best work. But like, for.

[Jessica Matlin]

Oh, I would say that as age means something. Age is great. It gives you experience. That's so funny that I framed it.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Well, that was the follow up basically to what she says. Age means nothing. That's basically. She's what.

[Jessica Matlin]

But really age means something. Like.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Well, she's saying, like, age means you can take chances. Age means you learn from your mistakes. Age means that you can just plow into the next thing because you have to.

[Jessica Matlin]

It's okay if you're not over 30 yet. You're also valuable.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Don't worry. But it was when I was thinking about this Demi thing. Would she have said yes to a role like this when she was 40? I don't know.

[Jessica Matlin]

Right.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

So I want to see more.

[Jessica Matlin]

More. For more. Okay. You just did A nice. So then I guess, what'll I do? I'll have a nice, too. Let's do a nice. A nice moment. 2024. Well, you took your sabbatical. I didn't even think of that. That was 24. This year has just flown by, but that introduced some new characters to fat mascaras. I had all these guests, these guest co hosts. Come on. Was not our plan, but, like, obviously we vibed with some of them. And then we have new contributors to the show, which I think is just making our show stronger. So I think what's really nice is what I've learned from two of our biggest new contributors, Garrett and Julie. I learned something from each of them, so I thought I would share a nice thing from Julie and a nice thing from Garrett. All right, you ready? From Julie. The thing that I learned this year that literally comes up in my house almost every day, you know when you hear a thing and then you're just like, it's just now this is part of my life and I'll never forget it. It's this concept of Leuven that she told us about maybe once or twice over the year, which is a Swedish concept, not unlike Hygge, which is when you're cozy and, you know, you got your hot cocoa by the fire, is when you open the windows in winter in your bedroom and let the cold, icy air in, but you seal off the bedroom, so that's only happening in the bedroom. And then you're in your house, whatever, and it's time to go to bed. You go in your bedroom and it's like bracing in arctic, but you have the biggest comforter ever. So you get under the sheets and the air is cold, but it's fresh, but you're under the sheets. Lufen. In fact, I say, this is nice. I texted her last night because I was talking about it with Eric again, and I keep calling it Luftwaffe. And I was like, wait, I think that might be the World War II German Air Force. So she. She finally left me, like, an audio voice message, pronouncing it so I would get it right. Loufan. So very nice. Thank you.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Straight lofen.

[Jessica Matlin]

And then straight Loufan. And then the other nice thing, I was like, what do I say from Garrett? Because now I got to do one from Garrett. And there's been tons of things, but I think more generally, it's been helpful to me to have a male perspective on a. Some of the beauty trends we talk about. It's really, like, opened my eyes to the way gender plays A role in the way you think about them. But also this conversation that has come up with you a lot, which is the one about the plastic surgery and maybe aging. And I don't know why that's so timely. Maybe because Garrett just turned 40, we're of a certain age. But also just the plastic surgery has become so much more available. Seeing his take on it all has really helped put it in perspective that it's okay to talk about. We're not objectifying people. We're reporting on thing that's happening in the world, and that's okay. And so I value that so much. So those are the two nice things.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Did you not want to talk about it before?

[Jessica Matlin]

No, it's just. It's almost like when you hear a woman talking about a woman's body, it can get catty in a way sometimes. I don't know how else to explain it. But when I talk, sometimes when Garrett talks about it. And as Garrett pointed out on last week's episode, he's like, I got to tell you something. And I thought he was going to, like, say he got some surgery that I didn't know. And I was like, of course I would know. He tells everybody. He's like. Like, I don't think I've ever seen a vagina. Like, he said it. Like, it's like he doesn't think about the woman's body in a sexual way. So he's able to give this really great perspective on both what's going on in the culture, but also not from a judgy place. Does that make sense?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I get it.

[Jessica Matlin]

It was so funny. I had to stop recording because I was laughing so hard. I was like, you don't think you've seen one? Like, I feel like you would know.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Garrett, was this during the Puffies, the puffy conversation?

[Jessica Matlin]

Well, we were talking about lady puffs.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah. Okay.

[Jessica Matlin]

But, yeah, so just both of their perspectives have been so great to add to their show. So before we take a quick break, let me just say thank you to them. They're both nice. They're both on my nice list. All of our contributors and guest co hosts this year on our nice list. Okay, we'll be right back after this.

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[Jennifer Sullivan]

All right, I have, like, a little baby naughty. It's just like a little baby naughty. It's not that bad.

[Jessica Matlin]

Spicy. Okay.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

But I just can't get, like, I can't get with all the, like, this is in, this is out. I kind of lost my mind when it was like, mascara is now out.

[Jessica Matlin]

Says the woman in the middle of the naughty and nice episode, which is literally the ins and outs of the year.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

That is kind of meta, right?

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah. Okay, keep going.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

No, but it's like. But no, but I'm not telling you this is in or this is out. These are like. This is like, more philosophical.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yes, yes.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Have we ever gone on this show and been like, all right, ladies, it's time to toss your bronzer? Like, no. The tiktokization of the beauty world has now made people feel badly about one fourth of the things in their makeup kit, because it's like, they're not even sure to put a question mark over it. It's like, is Urban decay naked palette in? Urz it out. Mascara. Inner spiky eyeliner. Eyeshadow. Eyeshadow's in. Wait, no. It's gonna make me look. It's like, crazy. And fashion too. Like, I just heard that skinny jeans are, like, back again. I'm so, like, my mind, my head is spinning. My head is spinning.

[Jessica Matlin]

The micro trends of it all. My friend Lara's coming this weekend. She comes every holiday and they stay with us for money. She's like, I'm wearing my skinny jeans in Brooklyn. I don't wanna hear anything about it.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Oh, my. No. Oh, you're gonna laugh. A friend of mine said the same thing about, are these cool? And I was like, I'm not sure, but go with it. Go with God. It's fine. And you know, the thing is, I actually love TikTok. I love TikTok Beauty. I love to know what's good. I love to know people are buying it. Help helps informs me with my job. I love to watch, like, it was funny. We were just talking about Trinity before. I love to watch her do her thing. I like to watch other creators talk about what they're doing. So I have nothing against TikTok Beauty. What I am concerned about is people who feel for a number of factors, like bad or second guess their own collection of makeup that they've spent hundreds.

[Jessica Matlin]

Does it make you feel thousands of dollars? You can wear it.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

That's what I mean, like, I don't want this chemistry of creator to person, to viewer to make them feel like they're out of touch, out of style, or like soon to be out of money because of a video they saw. If you feel good and you like your purchase and you feel pretty, or you bought this or your mom bought it for you, whatever, and that feels.

[Jessica Matlin]

Nice, keep it and turn off TikTok until you're ready to make another discipline.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, it's just like, I don't know that cycle. And the same thing is happening with fashion probably. I don't know. Maybe not to the same degree. Maybe it is. I don't know. But we don't. The planet and your wallet probably cannot handle the pace that we're at.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah, that's a naughty. It's a little naughty.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I said little naughty and now I'm like, little naughty. It's a big naughty.

[Jessica Matlin]

No, my naughty kind of is on. It's speaking to that. Because I think we couldn't talk about 2024 and ignore how social media plays into trends or just social media trends in general. The one that I picked up on is a naughty. I gave the name cause I like to name things Ancestral beauty. So I feel like, what does that mean? So like, clean beauty was something we talked about probably on a naughty and nice episode five years ago. But everything is clean beauty now. I don't think you can launch a brand that doesn't hit all of the, like, it's vegan, it's clean at Sephora, it doesn't have parabensulfate. It's almost like a non sequitur that people is non sequitur that want. It's just a thing people want.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

It's like a non starter.

[Jessica Matlin]

Non starter. Thank you. That's the word I wanted. So there is always this element in the beauty culture of people more on the fringe or maybe forward thinkers are pushing things who just out clean. I see you're clean. And I will up that one level too. I'm not even gonna involve chemistry or the labs or synthetics. I'm gonna make my own stuff. For example, Nara Smith, who was huge this year. The TikTok influencers. There's a lot like her where they look all beautiful, pull out a big old bowl and whip up toothpaste or sunscreen or I don't know if I want that. I'm putting this all in the naughty. Okay. It's up to you. But the New York Times reported on this in July on narrative specifically because she was making sunscreen, which is very hard to make sunscreen that works in your kitchen. Just saying. They quoted a vice president elect of the Society of Cosmetic Chemists, who basically said, baking. Yeah. You can follow a recipe you find online or on the back of the box. Cosmetics. Yeah, it's a recipe, but it's not like that. And much more difficult to follow because experts are kind of, like, nervous about all of this.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Jessica Matlin]

Going more on that. I'll give you another example. Beef tallow. Again. To me, this was, like, clean beauty, like, upped to, like, raw beauty. Levels of, like. Now I'm just gonna put hopefully purified beef tallow on my face.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I can't believe I didn't put this on my naughty. I think I. My mind blocked it out so hard.

[Jessica Matlin]

Yeah. I wrote about this for the cut.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I know.

[Jessica Matlin]

I saw the derms. They're not super worried about the comedogenesis and, like, yeah, maybe it'll be great for your skin. It's a moisturizer. Humans have been using it for thousands of years. You know what? When humans raised a cattle on the land and had to use every part of it. And there was an other alternative. So to me, that argument just doesn't fly with the beef tallow. Sorry. And then the last one I was thinking about is this raw milk thing that's been happening. Have you seen this?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I. I've seen it, but I'm not, like, paying close attention. I'm. I'm so.

[Jessica Matlin]

I guarantee you it's going to move internal beauty space. If we already have beef towel and making our own sunscreen, there's going to be raw milk moisturizer coming. I'm sure of it. But it's on my naughty list because, y'all, you just have to be careful. There's a big farm, it's called Raw Farms. They just got pulled from. They're sold at Erewhon. Their milk is used in heroin smoothies. They just got pulled because some of their milk tested positive for AVN flu. So I get the idea that you want to. I think the idea is that you want to be safer and healthier and you can't trust big corporations. But if you go the route of doing it yourself with these things, I just gave the example of that also doesn't mean safety and healthfulness automatically.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I think people have this kind of, like, pastoral kind of fantasy about anything that feels small. Homegrown. No.

[Jessica Matlin]

Softly lit.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Jessica Matlin]

It's in a mason jar.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Jessica Matlin]

I squeezed it with canvas. I had a chalkboard label. It is comforting. And it feels like it's a simpler time, like, when we didn't have to worry about, like, I'm literally talking about AI and we're talking about plastic surgery and all this. I see why this trend has popped up.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Up.

[Jessica Matlin]

I'm not surprised in the least, but it makes me nervous for, like, health reasons, so I give it a naughty. All right, I think we're. We've yapped our trends at you, but I. I do have one more nice surprise.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Oh, I see. I see it in the bag. I see it in the bag.

[Jessica Matlin]

Let me pull this out. Let me just pull this out. It's a little. It's a little audio that I'm going to drop right here. Little nice surprise for the fat. Well, it's for me and Jess, but. But you have to hear this. Okay, I'm just gonna play it. Here it is.

[Jennifer Aniston]

Hi, Jen and Jess. It's Jen. I just wanted to say thank you for coming to lolavie's spa event and for your kind words on the fat mascara podcast, which I love. I laughed when you called the treatments a couples massage. And yeah, by the way, great idea for our next event. I also heard the voicemails you left for me on the phone from the spa, and I'm so happy to hear that you love the glossing detangler as much as I do. And I promise, I promise I will never stop making it. I promise. Okay. I'm also hoping to come on Fet Mascara and get to talk to you guys soon in person. And I fully agree with you. Keep doing what you're doing. Talk to you later.

[Jessica Matlin]

Bye.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Okay, can I just say dead? Can I just say. Okay, dead. Her soul dead. First of all. Second of all, dad. Okay, third of all, I looked at my phone one day, and I saw, like, a chat pop up in my Instagrams, and I saw, like, a little Jennifer Aniston head. And it was like, jen, Jen.

[Jessica Matlin]

Audio message.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah. And I was like, what? And I thought that it was her, like. Like that she had started a live broadcast for her fans. And I looked, and it was just Jen, me and Jen. And I was like, what? And I clicked play and I heard her talking to us, and I was like, oh, this is not a broadcast channel, baby.

[Jessica Matlin]

Can you guys believe that? We were so tickled.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

So amazing.

[Jessica Matlin]

I screamed so loud, I banged my fist on. And my dog, like, went running. He was like, what's going on? I was like, well, Jennifer Aniston just called me, so that's what's going on. Jen, we love you. We love your line. I think we should just end 2024 with a little wish for 2025. Little something coming maybe in the new year.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I don't even. I don't even know what. I was so. Just so excited.

[Jessica Matlin]

So.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Yeah, you're amazing. Jennifer Aniston. Love your films.

[Jessica Matlin]

Love Instagram. Let's every some good energy out of like for 2025. Thanks.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Oh, love your hair. Hairline Lilleve, the glossing detangler.

[Jessica Matlin]

This could happen. Okay, so like we said, we're gonna do some amazing replays. We're gonna get so much beauty sleep over this holiday break, aren't we?

[Jennifer Sullivan]

I hope so. I guess we'll see. See how I show up on Jen.

[Jessica Matlin]

No, we're gonna sleep for two weeks.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Filter.

[Jessica Matlin]

Jess, you're on my nice list.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

As always, you're on my nice list. And all of our listeners are too. Thank you for sticking with us. This has been fun. I cannot believe it's been a year. Jen, you made it fly by.

[Jessica Matlin]

All right.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Get that beauty sleep.

[Jessica Matlin]

See you in 2025.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

We hope you enjoyed the show.

[Jessica Matlin]

It's your reviews and feedback that help us make the podcast even better. Head over to itunes to rate and review us or email your thoughts to infoatmascara.com we also want to answer your.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Beauty questions and hear what products you love. To share a razor, one product review or to ask a beauty question. Email us at Infoat Mascara.

[Jessica Matlin]

If you send it as a voice memo file, we can even share your voice on the podcast. You can also do that by leaving us a voice message. Our phone number in the United States is 646-481-8182.

[Jennifer Sullivan]

Thanks so much for listening.

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