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- [00:00]
Marketer
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Jen Sullivan
Hi. Hello. Welcome to Fat Mascara. I'm Jen Sullivan.
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Jess Matlin
Welcome. I'm Jess Matlin. Ooh, today is a goodie. It's a goodie. I've been waiting. I've been waiting.
- [00:51]
Jen Sullivan
Okay, before we get into that, it is a podcast about beauty culture. You can listen.
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Jess Matlin
They're here.
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Jen Sullivan
They made it on Spotify. We love that. Just scroll down and tell us what you thought of the episode. You can go to Apple Podcasts and review us. We really appreciate it.
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Jess Matlin
Leave as many stars as you want. Say however you feel it's true.
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Jen Sullivan
It's true. Like it's. We could take it referendum. It is.
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Jess Matlin
And referendum.
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Jen Sullivan
I don't know. So they're not all five stars. Fine. We have a good. We have a good rating. We do. But I do like to read them on the air, so that's another reason to leave us a review or a comment. I have one. This was just from three days ago.
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Jess Matlin
Okay.
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Jen Sullivan
This is from someone named Chelsea. Yes, current. This person did give us five stars.
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Jess Matlin
Oh, wait, say their name again. Say it loud.
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Jen Sullivan
Chelsea.
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Jess Matlin
Chelsea. Thank you, Chelsea.
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Jen Sullivan
The title of the review is Dating migraines, et cetera, which gives me an idea of which episode they were listening to. But Chelsea says, thanks so much for the shout out to nurses. Much appreciated.
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Jess Matlin
Yes.
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Jen Sullivan
Chelsea.
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Jess Matlin
God's work. God's work.
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Jen Sullivan
You are all like my best friends that aren't in media are nurses without failing.
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Jess Matlin
Nurses really are doing the Lord's work. And anytime, yeah, I'm sick or somebody else I know is in the hospital, it's like, can we allocate some of the wealth over there?
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Jen Sullivan
Yeah.
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Jess Matlin
Topical. All right. Yeah. Okay. You know what? Douglas Wood, I don't want to speak for him, but I have a feeling he would be happy. He would be on board with an I love nurses candle or sticker campaign or something. Douglas Little. So who is Douglas Little? Well, he's a man. He does a lot of different things. But you may know him because of his verse line dln co. But his other line is heretic, which is. It just has such an offbeat, dark kind of Brings kind of the. How do I say this? The kind of, like, darker side of the fragrance world, but mashes it with beauty. And that is why people like Gwyneth Paltrow tap him on the shoulder when they want to create a fragrance that's going to feel luxury, feel beautiful, but cut through the noise. But Douglas is really somebody who's so true to his aesthetic and to his singular vision, which is really like a refined, elegant goth sensibility that I feel has been so ahead of his time. He's been doing this since 2003. He's also got a little bit of a rock and roll vibe, and he's so true to himself. And that's why people come to him not only for product development, but also even for something we didn't talk about. But please look into it. Look into this window design and beautiful displays. He's like a true artist, and I was just totally taken by this conversation.
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Jen Sullivan
Yeah, he's great. And so in addition to Heretic Perfumes, which he is the perfumer and fragrance creator behind, he's a creative director and has own site, douglaslittle.com, where he does the goop stuff. Jess talked about works with Dita Von Teese, Jim Thompson, Big Sexy Hair, and others. So, yeah, it's a whirlwind interview. We talk about a lot, actually. He's a great storyteller. Should we just get into it?
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Jess Matlin
Yeah, let's do it, Jen. So, Douglas, I struggled with, really, how to introduce you because you do so much. You are what they call a multi hyphenate. I don't know if you would describe yourself that way, but I do. But when you went into the beauty industry, how did you describe yourself?
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Douglas Little
First of all, I've been called a lot of things, but multi hyphenate is new, so I'm into this. Ooh, yeah, I like it.
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Jess Matlin
I think I heard that word once in, like, an Entertainment Weekly intro about, like, a model, actress, songwriter or something. And I liked it.
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Douglas Little
I like it, too. It's nice. I will tell you that. Actually, it's been my biggest Achilles heel in my career. Cause when I had my start in the beauty industry, I started off out of art center, going into art direction, and then landed myself doing product development in hair care. And so the first thing I realized, I was like, okay, I need to know what I'm talking about. So I put myself through Vidal Sassoon, and I was like, okay, well, maybe I should be doing session work on the side. And so I'd go out And I'd meet with agents and they were like, well, what do you do? And I would try to explain to them, I was like, well, I'm a product designer and then I also do session work. And they were like, you need to pick a lane. This has been my problem my whole life is really, I think in speaking to other creatives, this is a common problem for a lot of creatives is that we all really enjoy being able to kind of sink our teeth into these things that we love and enjoy. And then the problem with it is, okay, so what do you do? And it's very difficult to say to someone, well, I'm a creative director, which just sounds like a crock of shit. I mean, it sounds like you don't know what you're doing. So yeah, it's challenging. But I mean, the way that I describe myself now is I describe myself as a creative director, a CEO and a perfumer. So to kind of get to the point of it is I run a company, I run a fragrance company and my role in that company is CEO, but I'm also the perfumer for the brand and I'm also doing all of the creative development. So it's a really loaded question.
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Jess Matlin
I'm sure people are nodding along and listening. People who do. And if you're a creative person, there's probably a reason why you are a multi hyphenate. Even if that is something that many people might not feel comfortable describing themselves at like, as like, you know, Jen, Jen is a producer. Jen also does speeches, Jen also writes. I'm a merchant, I'm a journalist, you know, I'm this, I'm that. But you don't come to the table and you say, oh, I do all these things. Like it's not comfortable to say you're all singing, all dancing. Because a lot of people, they want to put you in a box. Especially if you're going for a job. How do you recommend other people when you're marketing yourself, how do you recommend other creatives grapple with that? Because that is a thing. People don't want to hear the 75 line resume. They don't want to hear your life story. How do you recommend creatives reconcile that?
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Douglas Little
This is such a powerful conversation and it's one that I think really resonates with the creative industry and the creative community on such a big level. And I think that the quickness.
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Jess Matlin
People talk about your perfume, don't worry.
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Douglas Little
No, it's all good. I mean, this is like, this is really.
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Jess Matlin
I didn't Think we were gonna talk about this right away, but something that you said just really resonated with me. Cause I feel like everyone in our industry, at least we used to do kind of one thing, even though we really did, but now it's like it's exploded. And now we, either by force or by cause we want to, we do so much, you know.
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Douglas Little
Yeah. I think that the answer to this question is it's like any good business person, which a lot of creatives struggle with the left and the right brain conversation. But I think if you are able to sustain yourself doing what you love or doing your creative, is that the most important thing is know your audience. And so if you know your audience, then you know what to go into and you know what to tell them. So, you know, just recently I went in to go have a conversation with a client who wants me to develop a custom fragrance for them. I didn't talk about my creative direction skills. I talked about these are the fragrances that have been nominated for fifi's. This is what I've done. I developed X, Y and Z. And so I'm happy to give you the laundry list of my resume. But it's really about what are you going after? And I think, what do you want to present at that time to them that's going to help sell that through to the person about what you do and why they should hire you? And so I think most creatives, I think, really do that. But I would be incredibly remiss as a creative to say that I don't have this massive love of doing visual installation and doing immersive event design. And I've been hired to do so many different things. I mean, just recently I was hired to work on a bunch of food things. So it's like we are all multidisciplinary creatives. Do you know what I mean? And I think that now, especially in this, when our world has been so shaped with technology and it's about how do you take and how do you apply your creativity, how do you apply your passion to these different formats? And we have all become producers, creators, content creators, marketers. Like, we no longer can have the luxury of saying, like, all I do is I do this one thing. I wish. I wish that I could do that. You know, it's like, it's. We really have to, like, wear all the hats.
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Jess Matlin
Yeah.
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Douglas Little
And the question is, it's just like, how do you accessorize those hats? I guess is the question.
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Jess Matlin
That was million dollar advice. Okay, so I'm sure A lot of our audience has come to listen to you talk about your work in fragrance because we are primarily a beauty podcast. So your first. Your first line is at least the first line that I know was the DLN Co line that was. You know, I remember it coming out in, like, the early 2000s, and it was. I had this spider web candle, then there was an apple candle. It was awesome. It was really one of the first lines that I remember. Jen is nodding her head.
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Jen Sullivan
I had a skull candle. Oh.
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Jess Matlin
It'S really cool. It really felt. I mean, even now, if it came out today, like, very singular in its vision. It was like elevated goth. It was something that I think now, if it came out today, I feel like the reception would be even more tremendous. Tell us about that line. Where did the inspiration come from?
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Douglas Little
First of all, you know, I want to say how much this, like, really fills my heart, because it was. It was. I don't know how to describe it. When I launched DL Co, I launched it in 2003, and I launched it out of what I really felt that there was a hole in the industry and the hole in the fragrance world, especially within American luxury. I really didn't see there being a brand that was doing anything like this. And so I really wanted to create something that would fill a void and also to really speak to who I am as a creative, which is, I have this very dark, romantic side to me, and I wanted to really bring that out and bring that out to other people that have this dark romance about them. And the launch of it and the kind of concept around it was everything that I do is very psychologically based. So my cocktail conversation around the line was, I'm creating this brand, DLN Co, which is about dangerous beauty and about the most. Most of us that sometimes most of us. I mean, for me, personally. Let me speak in a personal capacity. First person. For me, the most beautiful things have often been the most dangerous. And that really has spoken to me in my relationships and things that I've been attracted to. You know, I've always had this very intense love for all things that go bump in the night and for things that I think that for. For most people, I think that they find frightening. And for me, as a child, I can remember rooting for the villains. I can remember, like, really having this love of things that were that scared a lot of people. And for me, it felt very familiar and it felt like home in a lot of ways. And so I've really spent my life exploring the unexplored and really wanting to kind of tell those stories. And fragrance, for me, whether it's home fragrance or personal fragrance, body fragrance, whatever, fragrance for me is the most powerful vehicle for storytelling. And I think that it is. So there is still so untapped. Even though we have these juggernaut brands like Birado and the Labo, and we've got these niche, gorgeous fragrance companies that have been doing these really interesting things with fragrance, there's still so much more to tell. And now, I think, especially with the world exploding the way that it has, and people having these diverse interests and now having, like, all these micro influencers to kind of even further their interests, there's even more opportunity to kind of really tell these stories.
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Jess Matlin
So what happened to the line? Can I ask? Like, I feel like there are a lot of people who are like, oh, remember the line? What happened to it? Where did. Where'd it go?
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Douglas Little
Yeah, it's the classic. And it's again, kind of goes back to the beginning of this. It's like this story of what is the recommendation that you would give to another creative? And this is like a story that it's very painful for me to tell. However, I very much believe that creativity is this gift that we've all been given by some kind of higher power. Whatever you believe in, and it is our purpose to step into that and to keep doing that. Like, I would never stop doing what I'm doing. Even if I didn't have the means to do it, I would still find a way to do it because it's how I'm programmed. And D.L. and Co. For me, became very successful. I had no idea what I was doing. I literally was coming out of the beauty industry. I was like, I have this idea. I want to give birth to it. I cashed in my 401k and slid it all across the table onto this idea. And then it took off. And like, all creatives, you know what I mean? I was like, oh, my God, this is working. This is so exciting. And so I was like, on to the next collection. And then all of a sudden, I ran out of money, and I was like, okay, so now what? And then I started scrambling, and I was going to banks. They were like, okay, yeah, we can give you a loan for $20,000. I'm like, it's not going to make it. And so then I was like, do I. Do I take a second on my house? Do what? What do I do? And. And then a friend of mine was like, oh, you should meet with my friend. He invest Brands. And so I met with this person who was involved in the garment industry. They were like, hey, I mean, I was. I was 30 when this happened. I mean, I had no idea, no business background. And so I sat down and I was like, if I don't get money to be able to buy into this next collection, I'm going to be off shelf. And at that time, like, Neiman's had picked me up, Saks had picked me up. Like, all of a sudden, the brand was, like, really popping. And so it felt like hindsight being 20 20, I should have just slowed my roll, but I didn't want to let it simmer down. So I was like, let's do this. And it was a handshake deal. And they were like, great, let's do this. And then we were off and running. And six months later, then the paperwork came across my desk about what was going to be the agreement. And the agreement was insane. And I was like, oh, I'm not going to sign this. And they said, pay me back. You have. You have a week. Pay me back or I'm going to take your company. And so I was like, oh, okay. So here we are. I'm in bed with this and I've got to make this work. And so I did, and I bumped along with it. And it's funny, my voice is even cracking talking about this because it's like, it was such a detrimental thing and it was so intense. And it was like, all I can say is for any creative that's out there that's looking to have an investor, you just need to know that whatever you're doing, you are getting in bed with someone. You are in a marriage. It is a marriage, and it is a legal, binding marriage when you sign that agreement. And I did. And so I had to roll along with it until I couldn't. And then that's exactly what happened, is it just got to a point where I just couldn't do it anymore.
- [16:24]
Jess Matlin
Does it exist anymore in some shape or form?
- [16:27]
Douglas Little
No. I actually, the way I went to my lawyer and I was like, I can't do this anymore. I just want them to buy me out. And they said, okay, go and present that. And so I went. And I was like, I can't do this anymore. Let's just find a way to amicably walk away from each other. And this is how much I think I should get from the company. And they said to me, you're in breach of your agreement and I will sue you. And I was like, oh, that's fantastic. So my lawyer said the best thing for you to do is just to walk away from the company. And so that's what I did. I just walked away from the company and the only thing I was able to walk away with was my name and you know, basically some. Some IP that I had developed. But this story is a story that is very normal and very common, I should say in the world of creative is where people got a passionate creative. They get very excited. They don't, you know, really like I didn't have legal advisor when I signed the contract. So it was like I really didn't understand what I was getting myself into, which is my own fault. I take full responsibility for it. But it was a painful lesson and the company went on without me for a couple years and it rattled on and then they started basically producing my concepts but making them not the way you would. No, no.
- [17:40]
Jess Matlin
It was much expensive, I think I remember.
- [17:42]
Douglas Little
And all of a sudden the brand just kind of fell apart and they've since sold the brand to someone else and they've kind of taken a piece of that company and have kept it going underneath subsidiary. But what was known as DLN Co no longer exists, which is thrilling for me because now I'm able to kind of Heretic is what I always wanted DLN Co to be. And it's being done in a way that is so much more powerful and it has such a better like it just feels much more authentic.
- [18:14]
Jen Sullivan
I hope you're able to see that maybe that had to happen. Right, because you walked away with your brain and all these learnings 100%. It was the best Heretic can do it the right way.
- [18:23]
Douglas Little
It was the best lesson ever. And you know, there's so many like metaphorical, metaphysical weird moments that I could talk about with it where it's like when I did Dll & Co. I was like building D'El & Co. On this idea of this kind of myself as this Victorian dandy living in this modern world. And I was really like really leaning into the artifice of it. And what's funny about that is that I don't know, whatever, it just sounds so woo woo when I say this. But it was like if you present yourself as something other than you are, it only works for so long.
- [18:58]
Jen Sullivan
Were you not the dandy, the Victorian dandy?
- [19:01]
Douglas Little
I was buying into it. But you know, the fact was, is that I think that there was a reality that was missing from the equation and it started to disintegrate and when it all fell Apart, it was a very interesting lesson for me. And when I started DL or excuse me, when I started Heretic, I never wanted to present something other than who I am. And I wanted to develop concepts that were honoring what I love, but was about authenticity. And that was really about unpacking these fragrance formulas. Radical transparency with what I was making.
- [19:36]
Jen Sullivan
More multifaceted.
- [19:38]
Douglas Little
Very multifaceted. Yeah. And so that's why when it's funny, when I go and I meet with venture capital people and whatnot, and they're talking about, they asked me to present the concept for Heretic, they're like, oh, wow, this is a real passion project for you. And I was like, this is who I am. It's like, if you cut me open, this is literally who I am. It's not that I've developed out this brand idea and I'm like, oh, I want to make clean perfume and I'm going to market to this demograph. No, that's not me. It's not what I'm doing. And it's a very different world. And I think that that's why Heretic is this odd anomaly, because it is art driven. It's passion driven. It's coming from a place of true authenticity.
- [20:33]
Jen Sullivan
Jess, you ever notice how your skin sort of changes in the winter?
- [20:36]
Jess Matlin
Sure.
- [20:37]
Jen Sullivan
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- [21:06]
Jess Matlin
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- [21:32]
Jen Sullivan
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- [21:56]
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- [22:45]
Jen Sullivan
Okay, but what. So this is you. This is like genuine Douglas. Let's say there's like a social media manager who's like, we're doing this random little video and it's just like, does not align with your heart and soul, which is so much what this company is. Are you able to separate yourself and let go of those little things? Or do you find yourself like, because you're so the brand that micro. Not micromanagement. You know what I mean? Like, you want to get into the details a lot. Like, how do you manage when you are the brand?
- [23:13]
Douglas Little
What's been interesting is that this company has attracted others. And so my group, like, I really and truly have this amazing group of people that all were all coming from the same place. And so I don't. Like, I would never.
- [23:30]
Jen Sullivan
You wouldn't be working here if you didn't get it?
- [23:34]
Douglas Little
No.
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Jen Sullivan
Okay, but tell me this. You play with the dark side of nature. You seem like a very optimistic and loving and spiritual person, but yet, like, you're attracted to this dark glamour. You mentioned the dandy and the Victorian. Like, why do you think that is? What is it about the bump in the night stuff that you're so drawn to?
- [23:52]
Douglas Little
I think that because within all of us that we all have a shadow side and our shadow side is what fuels the light side of us. And it is a constant yin and yang. And if you ignore the shadow aspect of yourself, you're really not complete. And it takes both the dark and the light to make any situation. Even if we bring this back to fragrance, if you were to create a fragrance and it was just purely made out of only florals.
- [24:25]
Jen Sullivan
Good analogy.
- [24:26]
Douglas Little
It is very sickening. And it may appeal to someone but it's going to be very short lived. It's fragrances that toy with things that are considered dark. Or you have this kind of like mysterious element or these kind of elements. Like we could just, let's pick an ingredient like patchouli. Polarizing. But the tiniest amount of patchouli up against a jasmine or a tuberose makes that beautiful white floral so much more impactful. And so it is that dark and light that really make up who I am as a creative. And also, again, I say this stuff and I hear myself saying it, I'm like, wow, I just sound like a crazy Californian. But I'm also a Scorpio. And I'm so deeply in my Scorpio. Nature is to unpack the shadow. And that's where I'm the most comfortable, is in things that are unusual, things that are uncommon, things that scare a lot of people. This is where I'm the most comfortable.
- [25:30]
Jess Matlin
So like if anyone is listening and they're like, well, I don't, you know, we name check some of the fragrances at the top. But like, okay, Voodoo Lily, Poltergeist, Dirty Vanilla. We're gonna talk about the Nosferato. What are some other ones? The Blood Box, the Gothic, Antiquarian. What's going on there?
- [25:48]
Douglas Little
Well, first of all, your tone I don't like because I feel.
- [25:54]
Jess Matlin
I'm into it. I'm Douglas.
- [25:57]
Jen Sullivan
She saw. Like, that's Jess knowing she's vibe. It was someone like minded to like minded.
- [26:03]
Jess Matlin
I'm hook, line and sinker. Are you kidding? I would have bought all of this stuff if I wasn't in the industry. I'd be number one loyalty program. Okay, I'm just kidding you. We do, we do okay listeners, but I need to know what references, like what's on the mood board? Where are you in your mind space? Like, let's get specific.
- [26:25]
Douglas Little
Well, first and foremost, what I've been wanting to do with Heretic is really create fragrances that are left of center. So I really don't want to give our customers another vanilla. Do you know what I mean? Like, I really am looking to curate a customer who is looking to smell different. And so I want Heretic to be a touch point for when you're looking for a fragrance that's not going to make you smell like everyone else come to us. And that is what the world that I want to create. So I'm not going to go and create a rose fragrance. You know, I mean, if we're going to do rose, it's going to be called Dirty Rose. If I'm going to do a vanilla, it's going to be called Dirty Vanilla. I know that there's a lot of people out there that this is not for, but that's fine. That's so many other things that are for that person.
- [27:11]
Jess Matlin
And tell us about the kind of clients that you get.
- [27:15]
Douglas Little
So our clients, we have a really wonderful cross section of clients. That's fascinating. We do have a really gorgeous goth girlie who I'm continually in love with. And I love these people, I love these girls, I love these boys. Because these people.
- [27:33]
Jen Sullivan
Is she Dita?
- [27:34]
Douglas Little
Some of them are Dita. But there's like all these, like, new cross sections of this world. This, like, cottagecore, you know, you've got all these kind new ideas of granny core, you know, like people that are really interested in this kind of European folktale, this kind of a life that is a bit more romantic, I would say. And also exciting news, we're launching with anthropology next year. So I think that there's an anthropology girl who has this kind of interest in. She can slide into something that's a.
- [28:05]
Jess Matlin
Little spooky, but that's what's so interesting. It's like, I think. And this is what I was like, thinking at the beginning. It's like, I feel like the DLN co was like, so kind of like Barney's niche. It was like, this, the world. There were like five people who were ready for, like, luxury goth. And now like, the world is like, everyone has a little bit of the darkness. Everyone is like, they're ready for darkness.
- [28:34]
Douglas Little
Yeah. It's been embraced in a much bigger capacity. And I think people are much more comfortable in kind of coming out of the broom closet with their, you know, like their gothiness and saying that they enjoy a spooky story. Or I mean, if you just look at the past five years and you look at what's happened around Spooky season, it is now a major marketing campaign for people to really develop product that's specifically geared towards people that enjoy September, October, Halloween activities.
- [29:05]
Jess Matlin
I'm thinking not just the spooky season stuff, but just like even I think about the people who are very big in pop culture. I think about how dark like Billie Eilish can get sometimes. Or like the women who are very big in like a. Like, I think of just how young people. When I was younger, I felt like, oh, if you're into dark stuff, like, you're dark, you're goth. Lock you away in Hot Topic and throw away the Key. And now here, I feel like dark beauty. You know what I'm saying? And I feel like it's a little bit more mainstream to play with a dragon's blood or to wear stickers on your face or. You know what I mean?
- [29:49]
Douglas Little
Yeah, no, I definitely. I agree with you. And I think that this idea within the United States, the idea of longing, the idea of lost love, the idea of pining, these kind of European ideas that are very prevalent in European culture and European literature.
- [30:08]
Jess Matlin
Yeah.
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Douglas Little
Are fairly uncommon.
- [30:11]
Jess Matlin
And Irish, too.
- [30:12]
Douglas Little
It's very Irish. It's very Scottish. This world is not a world the United States is very familiar with and doesn't really celebrate it in a way. And I think that what's happened is you have this younger culture that's really started to look at the idea of the romance and the beauty that is often associated with, you know, things that are dark and there is a beauty to it. And that's always been what I've wanted, Wanted to do with my company, is to really show the beauty that is in the darkness. And for some people, I don't believe that I've ever done anything that is. That you couldn't look at and be like, okay, yeah, it's dark, but it is beautiful. And, I mean, this dark beauty, for me, has been a constant source of inspiration, and it's why I ended up becoming, like, Dita's one of my very best friends. You know what I mean? And it's. Dita is that dark beauty. You know what I mean? She is truly the epitome of that.
- [31:07]
Jess Matlin
So, yeah, tell us about these celebrity collaborations. You've had a couple your muses. Yeah. You've had some biggies.
- [31:15]
Douglas Little
Yes, we've had some really good ones. I mean, even in my personal life. My fiance is Jodie Lynn O'Keefe, and we're getting married next year. And Jody is. She is another extraordinary dark beauty. So, yeah, for me, I've always had this, like, real affinity for them. And as far as my celebrity collaborations, there's been some that have been a big surprise and some that I really was hoping for you. Dita was one that I knew who she was for a long time. When I took on this business partner, I moved my offices down to the California Mart of downtown Los Angeles. And so I happened to be going into the office one day. It was like 2005, and I get into the elevator. I literally had come from the gym and was stepping into the elevator. I was going to do some paperwork, and who walks into the flippin elevator. But Dita, and she's all in Dita gear. And she steps in, and my best thinking was just to turn around and face the back of the elevator, because I was like, oh, my God, it's her. And I literally just turned around like a crazy person and faced the back of the elevator the entire ride. And then she got off on the same floor, and I ran the other way and I ran into my office. I told my assistant, I was like, you need to put a package together. Right now. Dita is down the hallway. She's at Swarovski. And so my assistant at the time. You guys will love this. She also had a real affinity for all things dark and glamorous. And she came to work every day as a version of Tippi Hedren. I shit you not. What? There was always a iteration of Tippi Hedren from the Birds.
- [32:56]
Jess Matlin
This is like a reality show.
- [32:58]
Douglas Little
And believe me, it really was. I think about it now, and it was incredible. She was always in a pencil skirt, heels, back seam stockings that were tattooed on her.
- [33:06]
Jess Matlin
Oh, my God.
- [33:06]
Douglas Little
And this, like, chignon of white hair. And so she runs down the hallway and she drops off this package to her. And three days later, I got this handwritten note from Dita and we started our friendship and we became fast friends ever since.
- [33:19]
Jen Sullivan
Also, you had that assistant to present it. She probably just like the part.
- [33:23]
Douglas Little
She always. Yeah, she was incredible. I take.
- [33:25]
Jess Matlin
She's like, this guy gets it.
- [33:26]
Douglas Little
No, she was amazing. But, yeah. Other collaborations that we've done was obviously the most infamous one was with Gwyneth Paltrow. And Gwyneth is definitely not a dark beauty. Quite the.
- [33:38]
Jess Matlin
What's going on?
- [33:39]
Douglas Little
You know, I'll tell you, when that whole thing came up, I was so shocked by it because it came out of left field. And it really was Jean Godfrey June who made it all happen. And she knew me from my days with DL&CO, and she was obviously the editor in chief of Lucky, and we had a great relationship and she wrote about my stuff all the time. But when she went on to work with Goop, she wrote to me and she was like, you know, I really think that Gwyneth would be interested in this. And I said to her, I was like, oh, okay. And so that's kind of where it ended. And then the next thing I know, I got an email from Gwyneth's assistant, and he said, gwyneth's gonna be in New York and she'd like to meet with you. And I literally was shaking at My laptop. Like, oh, my God, now what? And I'm thinking, like, do I need to rent an office? Like, what do I do?
- [34:26]
Jess Matlin
Yeah.
- [34:27]
Douglas Little
And I thought, nope, you're in your authentic. You're in your authenticity. Like, you just have to embrace this and let it happen. And so two weeks later comes a knock at my apartment in New York, and in comes Gwyneth Paltrow, and dead of summer. And I almost couldn't talk because I was so nervous. And then once I settled down and started talking about fragrance, which is where I'm the most comfortable we it. And first of all, I. When I meet with a client, I always predetermined fragrances based on. On who I think they are. So nine times out of ten, I'm right. So I had put out a deck of fragrances for her, and I was like, okay, we're going to be talking about California fragrances. So it's going to be jasmine and rose and magnolia, and we're going to do all these citruses, and we're going to work with these umbrella lights. It's going to be this soft, sunny bunny, California fragrance. First thing out of her mouth is she was like, so I really want to do a fragrance. I love what you're doing. And what I've been wanting to create is three or four different moods. And she was like, I really want to capture these moments that have been really impactful in my life. She was like, there's this one moment when I was in Switzerland, and I was having this insane sex with a friend, and we were on the floor, and there was a smell of the sex. There was a smell of the floor, and it was winter, and there was this roaring fire. And I just remember that moment, and I was like, oh, I love this bitch. Like, she is unbelievable. She is incredible. And then the more we talked, she just was dismantling everything that I thought about. She was like, I do not want a citrus fragrance. I don't want something that's going to appeal to a broad audience. I want to do these really cool fragrances that are going to be polarizing. And I was like, oh, my God, she is so rad. Like, she was so incredible. And the more that we got to know each other and the more that I felt more comfortable with her, she is so not what people think. You know, she really and truly is so insanely creative, and she's coming at it from such an interesting place. And, yeah, there's all of the other things that are involved with Gwyneth, but she's Very legit. She's a very legit creative and she's got incredible taste, obviously, but she's not afraid to go against the grain. And I think that as someone in her place, I think a lot of celebrities would just go for least path of resistance. And she is very much like, no, this is what I want to do and this is what we're going to do.
- [36:56]
Jess Matlin
So is the Switzerland candle. This candle smells like my vagina.
- [37:01]
Douglas Little
No, the vagina came later. And I'm happy to unpack that if you'd like. But this particular fragrance was part of the fragrances I did for Goop, which was the four EDPs. So it was edition one, two, three and four. And addition one was like a winter fragrance.
- [37:18]
Jess Matlin
Okay. And that's the one that comes from.
- [37:20]
Douglas Little
The crazy sex one that was Sexy Time in Switzerland.
- [37:23]
Jen Sullivan
Yeah.
- [37:23]
Jess Matlin
Okay. Okay.
- [37:25]
Douglas Little
Yeah.
- [37:25]
Jess Matlin
Thank you for that vivid anecdote.
- [37:27]
Jen Sullivan
Sorry. Then I gotta unpack. This candle smells like my vagina. Who named that? Did you? Did she?
- [37:33]
Douglas Little
So it was again, people probably won't believe this, but I swear to God it's the truth. It was a full blown accident. So while I was working on these fragrances, these additions, we were getting to the point where we were talking about summer, because we were looking at, okay, this is winter, spring, summer, fall. So we got to summer and Gwen said to me, what are you thinking that we should do for summer? And I said, well, I mean, if you want to sell a bunch of fragrance, we should do this classic summer orchard type of a world. But I said, me personally, as an artist and perfumer, the thing that turns me the most on about summer is going to Big Sur. So it's where I spend most of my summer, if I can. I love it there. It's incredible. Big Sur, for any of one that's been there, has a very specific fragrance, no matter what time of year you're there. But it is this interesting cross section of where you have these evergreens. So you've got all these pines and cypresses and cedars, but you also have the brininess from the sea. And then you also, no matter what time of year, you can always smell smoke. There's always the smell of a campfire or a burning smoke. Burning wood. Sorry, burning smoke. So I said, why don't we do a fragrance that is really driven by this idea of Big Sur in the summer and something that's less expected and we can really work into this kind of world of salt and brine and seaweed and sage and smoke. And she was like, yeah, this sounds amazing. So off I go, and I'm tinkering. And the way that we would work is I would develop fragrances very much like the chaos that you see behind me. And then I would come to her with all these fragrances, and I would bring the individual notes as well as the final formula. So I brought the individual notes and I said, yeah, I found this incredible seaweed absolute. It comes from France. It's from this little distillery. And I was like, it's really intense. And there was like three people in the meeting. And I said, so just so you're aware, when you smell it, it's going to be intense, so keep it away from your nose because it's going to be too powerful. And she grabs a bottle and she picks it up and she smells it. And she stops and pulls back and she goes, oh, my God, this smells like a vagina. And I said, okay, first of all, if your vagina smells like this, you need to see someone, because that's a problem. And so it became. It, of course, was a great icebreaker in this meeting. And we all were roaring, laughing, and talking about it, and it kind of ended there. But then, for whatever reason, because of who I am and because I'm an asshole, I wouldn't let it. I would not let it go. And so every time I would see her, I would have, like, I got a bunch of pencils made that says, this smells like my vagina. And so I would go into her office and I would just put them in her pencil cup. And then we would have a meeting. And then later, I would get a funny text message. And one Christmas, I made these fragrance flasks. And for Christmas, I sent her one, and I had it engraved, and it said, this smells like my vagina. And she, on Christmas day, sent me a text message with her, and she was like, this is hands down the best Christmas gift anyone's ever given me. And it kind of died there. And then she was doing one of her goop summits in San Francisco, and she asked me, do you want to come and exhibit Heretic there? And I said, yes, of course. So I went up and I showed up And I made 50 candles that said, this smells like my vagina. And she walked up to the booth and I said, I've got a surprise for you. And I showed her the candle, and she was like, are you kidding me right now? And I said, no surprise. And she was like, oh, my God, this is so funny. She was like, well, let's see what happens. Happens. And so that day, someone from T magazine was at the GOOP summit. And by the way, those candles sold out in, like, 2.2 seconds. Like, they were gone so fast. And I was like, oh, okay, this works. And the buyer came up to me at goop and they were like, okay, we probably should buy these and do these. And I was like, okay, great. And so that's kind of where it went, but from that, this person from T magazine bought one. And then within, like, three days, it was in T magazine, and no one knew about it. We hadn't even put it up on the GOOP website yet. And all of a sudden, it hit. And it happened so fast that the GOOP executives were sending me emails that were like, did you have the approval to do this? And I'm freaking out. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I made a huge mistake. I've completely. You know, I ruined everything. And I was like, oh, this is like an inside joke that Gwyneth and I had. And, you know, I thought it would.
- [42:13]
Jess Matlin
Be fun copying Gwyneth.
- [42:15]
Douglas Little
She said. She laughed. I was. I was exactly.
- [42:18]
Jess Matlin
I swore she laughed. She liked it.
- [42:22]
Douglas Little
And actually, she was cc'd on all this stuff. And she. In a cc, she wrote back, and she was like, everyone needs to cool it. This is fine. Let's just do this. Let's see what happens.
- [42:31]
Jess Matlin
That's really funny.
- [42:32]
Douglas Little
And so. And then bang. You know what I mean? It became this viral thing. And the next thing I know, it's on Jimmy Kimmel, and I'm like, how did this happen?
- [42:41]
Jess Matlin
So your little inside joke became, like, a major revenue driver.
- [42:47]
Douglas Little
It was insane. I mean, it was just crazy how fast and how furious it all went. And of course, people are always asking, like, did it smell like the seaweed? No. With this candle, I wanted to make something that was really beautiful. So I did this very soft rose, this kind of soft, incensey rose fragrance. And the content that came out of that candle was so wild. I mean, at one point, I forgot who did it, but someone did a blind vagina scent experience where they had a panel and they just had people smelling a bunch of random candles, and the vagina candle was in them, and they had to vote which one was the vagina. And I died watching this. Like, I died watching it because, of course, the commentary is so funny about all of it. But they all picked. They all were like, oh, this one is sexy smelling. I bet this is the vagina. And so it was one of those moments that, yes, this did work, you know, And I think it did convey what we were hoping to convey. But more importantly, while it was a joke and it was an inside thing that happened between Gwyneth and I, there was a bigger topic in this, which was this, like, dismantling of the taboo around body odors. And specifically, I think a lot of women have. There is some shame that is wrapped around it. And I really believe that it opened up this idea of talking about it. And I think, more importantly, this idea of really dismantling shame around sexuality is so powerful. And I really. I think that the candle, while it did it was very tongue in cheek, obviously. I think it did really open up conversation. And even in that thing, when they did the blind smelling, I loved hearing, you know, they had a gay guy on it, they had a couple lesbians, they had a wonderful trans person that was talking about it, and they had a straight dude. And it was just so interesting to hear the conversation that it opened up. And it kind of goes back to the beginning of our conversation, which is how fragrance can open up dialogue. And that is the most important thing, is just to get people talking.
- [45:10]
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- [45:43]
Jen Sullivan
You kind of have people talking again now with Nosferatu. No.
- [45:47]
Douglas Little
Yeah.
- [45:48]
Jen Sullivan
In our world, at least.
- [45:49]
Douglas Little
I could not be happier. Yeah, it's really been wonderful.
- [45:51]
Jen Sullivan
Got a lot of buzz. And how did that come about? I mean, the movie's not out yet. It's coming out in, like, what, two weeks from when we air this?
- [46:01]
Douglas Little
Yeah.
- [46:02]
Jen Sullivan
What's a vampire smell like?
- [46:04]
Douglas Little
Great question. The way that it came about was it made me so happy because I got a email from our PR company, and she said, there's someone that wants to talk to you about a potential movie thing, like, doing a fragrance for a movie. And I was like, okay, I'm interested. So we got on this call, and they were being very clandestine about, like, oh, you know, we've got this project. We wanted to see if you'd be interested. And I was like, okay, what is the project? And they were like, so Robert Eggers. And I was like, stop there, because whatever it is that he's doing, I'm in. And then they were like, he's doing Nosferatu. And. And you could have picked me up with a shovel. I was liquefied.
- [46:47]
Jen Sullivan
This is why you take every meeting people. You didn't know. No, you didn't know. It's like so you.
- [46:53]
Jess Matlin
That's so true.
- [46:54]
Douglas Little
Do you understand? The goth teenager in me exploded. Like, I didn't know what to do with myself. My lunchbox carrying 14 year old goth kid exploded. And. And I was like, yes, yes, I want to do this. And I immediately was like, okay, this is going to be this like crazy licensing deal.
- [47:16]
Jess Matlin
How did you act during the meeting? Were you really.
- [47:19]
Douglas Little
I was trying to be very cool. I really was.
- [47:21]
Jess Matlin
Were you though?
- [47:23]
Douglas Little
I held it together until the end. And then at the end of the meeting I lost my shit. Like, I was really trying so hard to be like, okay, did you call Dita?
- [47:33]
Jess Matlin
Like, when did you call Dita?
- [47:34]
Douglas Little
I texted her while the meeting was happening.
- [47:36]
Jess Matlin
Okay.
- [47:37]
Douglas Little
By the way, knew it.
- [47:38]
Jess Matlin
Like skull, skull emoji, Heart, skull.
- [47:42]
Douglas Little
No, no, it was heart, heart, bat, heart.
- [47:47]
Jess Matlin
Coffin.
- [47:48]
Douglas Little
Coffin, coffin. Yes, exactly, exactly. Creepy that you saw my text message, but okay.
- [47:57]
Jess Matlin
Once you said lunchbox, I was like, oh, I know this guy. Yeah, we would have been buddies 100%.
- [48:03]
Douglas Little
So after I got over the shock of it and at the end of the call, by the way, like, this is how I couldn't hold it together because I was like, okay, business, business, business. It's all business. Like, let's talk about return on investment. Let's talk about ebitda. Let's get into that. And then at the end, I was like, I'm freaking out. And I was like, I literally don't know what to do with myself. And she was like, well, you know, we're just so excited that you're interested in this project because we did so much research on perfume brands. And she was like. And we just really feel like Heretic is the right fit. And that was the moment where. Let me explain to you ladies. I was like, I can. If I die right now, I'm good. Like, the fact that they came to us and they were like, this is the brand that we want to work with. And you know, she was like, we really think that your customer is the right customer. They're going to get it. You're the right brand to talk about this. And I was exactly. I was like, it's so gratifying as creative to know that the breadcrumbs that you've been putting out led. It led Nosferatu to me. It led the vampire so, yeah, and then again doing this fragrance, I sat down and started ideating on the fragrance, and I created my magnum opus of a fragrance. And I was like, it had, like, 62 ingredients in it. And I was putting it on everyone at the office, and people would be like, like, that's great. That's wonderful. And I was like, oh, this is a terrible fragrance. And I. Then they said, you know, we want you to go see the movie. And I had gone into this with, like, okay, I know I want to really unpack. What does a vampire smell like? And really try to get into that idea. And so that's where I was going in this. And I was looking at all of the history of vampires and, like, all my favorite vampires and using that as inspiration for what it would smell like. And I just kept going back to, like, these very particular tropes. Tropes, which was like, obviously the smell of blood. So, like, really working with this metallic note. And then I was like, okay, well, we're gonna have to do something that's churchy. So, you know, I was getting into that burnt frankincense myrrh world, and I was like. And then there probably should be, like, a candle wax. Like, that smell of candle wax that's involved with this. And that's really what I built. And I was like, okay, this is a really. This is a cool fragrance. It's got this, like, cool edge. It kind of. I'm not going to lie, it smelled a little bit like a fancy occult shop. And I was like, you know, like, you've gone into the psychic eye and you've got some, like, fancy incense. And I was like, yeah, this is a cool fragrance. But then when I saw the movie, and I was like, oh, shit, this fragrance doesn't work. The movie. I mean, it's Robert Eggers, and he is. He's a genius. The lighting, the cinematography, the costumes. The color palette for the film is so highly redacted. Wait, the costumes are not redacted? The costume's very maximal. It's Victorian Gothic. But the color palette is so dialed in in this film. It's so controlled. And the way that the lighting is done is. It's so controlled. And, you know, Robert Eggers is famous for that. Like, the lighthouse is such a great example of that, of these. Like, the blacks are black. They're so crunchy and black, and the whites are so white, and the grays are. That. You've got, like, these three tones of grays that he does. And this film is, like, this weird Violet, gray, blue color palette. And then there's these, like, flashes of amber that come in. And it's done in this very specific way. And it's so haunting and it's so gothic, and it's. It's just.
- [51:44]
Jen Sullivan
So you had to rework it? You had to rework your fragrance?
- [51:47]
Douglas Little
Oh, no, I burned it to the ground. I literally was.
- [51:49]
Jen Sullivan
And you started again.
- [51:50]
Douglas Little
I have to start over. And so I went back and re approached the fragrance from really the feeling that came out of the film. And Robert Eggers, he drops you into this world that is this gothic romance that's happening between this vampire who's obsessed with this young girl. And it's very creepy, you know, I mean, it's very creepy. And you're in this world of Count Orlok, which his castle is so spooky and atmospheric, and, you know, it's in the Carpathian Mountains, and there's all this bramble and moss and wet, dripping walls, and, you know, it's very, very atmospheric. And then his crypt is so incredible. And so those takeaways. I was like, okay, so I need to be really working, and it's raining a lot in the film. And so I was like, I think that there's a Petrichor note that. That I can't ignore in this fragrance. And then once I was like, okay, Petrichor is where I'm going to go. There was other elements that are lilacs play a big portion in this movie. And so I was like, okay, so lilacs are going to obviously be my heart chord. I'm going to use Petrichor as my top note. And then the bass note, which, again, kind of going back to the beginning of our conversation of fragrance. Base notes in fragrance are also. They're very much akin to the world of the shadow aspect of your personality. And so I used the base note to represent Count Orlok and developed the base of the fragrance around the kind of shadowy aspects of his obsession and built it out of a vegan ambergris, which ambergris is, for those of you that don't know, ambergris is a. That comes from whales. And I couldn't use the real thing because we don't work with any animal ingredients. So I worked with this beautiful vegan replica of ambergris, and it is musky and briny and mysterious. And so the top chords represent Ellen Hutter, who is the young lady who the vampire is obsessed with. And then the base cord is represented by Count Orlok.
- [53:58]
Jen Sullivan
I like that palette better than the waxy cult Shop.
- [54:01]
Jess Matlin
Anyway, very cool. Congratulations.
- [54:05]
Douglas Little
Thank you.
- [54:06]
Jess Matlin
Yeah, it feels like the perfect project for you. And as you said, really validating that. It feels like every step of your career is like eye to eye. You are chosen for this project because somebody understands you and somebody who you respect.
- [54:23]
Douglas Little
And isn't that all of our goal in life is just to, like, we all just want to be seen? You know what I mean? And it's those moments when it happens that you really feel like, okay, what I'm putting out into the world is working and it makes you feel like your efforts are worth it.
- [54:40]
Jen Sullivan
So we do this fat mascara 5 and special for you. A couple of these questions. This is usually our speed round, but the first one we wanted to know, who's your favorite villain?
- [54:50]
Douglas Little
My favorite villain would probably be. Oh, man, this is really tough.
- [54:58]
Jess Matlin
How about you get a few. A few favorite villains? I'm gonna. I feel like we should let him have a few.
- [55:05]
Jen Sullivan
I'll allow.
- [55:06]
Jess Matlin
Yeah. Yeah.
- [55:07]
Douglas Little
Okay.
- [55:08]
Jess Matlin
Maybe we could do animated and like non animated.
- [55:11]
Douglas Little
Oh, like Disney.
- [55:13]
Jen Sullivan
I wanna know yours now, Jess.
- [55:15]
Jess Matlin
Like Disney and then like, real emotion. Whatever.
- [55:19]
Jen Sullivan
Maybe he wasn't even gonna go there. Yeah. What were you gonna say?
- [55:21]
Douglas Little
I like this, though. I like this a lot. So as far as, like, movie characters go, I would probably political.
- [55:28]
Jess Matlin
I don't know.
- [55:29]
Douglas Little
Oh, we could be here for the movie, missing all the villains.
- [55:35]
Jess Matlin
I don't think it was a favorite. Just kidding. Please don't. Me, I don't know.
- [55:39]
Douglas Little
If I was to pick movie villains, I'm going to pick two. I would pick David, played by Fassbender in Prometheus and in the Alien series.
- [55:48]
Jess Matlin
Okay.
- [55:49]
Douglas Little
My second would be American Psycho.
- [55:52]
Jess Matlin
Ooh, Patrick Bateman.
- [55:54]
Douglas Little
Yes, exactly. And then as far as animated characters, I probably would pick Witch Hazel from Bugs Bunny.
- [56:02]
Jess Matlin
Oh, wow. Niche.
- [56:04]
Douglas Little
Yeah.
- [56:05]
Jen Sullivan
Niche villain. I don't even remember Witch Hazel.
- [56:08]
Douglas Little
Yeah, Witch Hazel. Yeah, she was a good one.
- [56:11]
Jen Sullivan
I know my post episode Google. Thank you. That'll. That'll. That'll entertain me for a good hour.
- [56:18]
Jess Matlin
Was Bugs Bunny? Was Hannah. Was Hannah Barbera.
- [56:23]
Douglas Little
Hannah Barbera.
- [56:24]
Jess Matlin
Yeah. Okay.
- [56:25]
Jen Sullivan
Okay, Next. Favorite horror movie.
- [56:28]
Douglas Little
Oh, favorite horror movie. That's again, a real tough one because I've got many, but I would say that my top would be Rosemary's Baby.
- [56:35]
Jen Sullivan
Oh, okay.
- [56:37]
Jess Matlin
I like that. It's not gory and it's just like, more.
- [56:40]
Douglas Little
No, I really. I'm not a huge fan of gore. I really am not.
- [56:44]
Jess Matlin
Me neither.
- [56:44]
Jen Sullivan
Regular life has so much horror anyway.
- [56:46]
Jess Matlin
I know, right? I know.
- [56:47]
Douglas Little
Yeah. Yeah. My trilogy is Rosemary's Baby, the Shining and Poltergeist. Like, those are my all time. And then you pretty much can pick any Hitchcock film. And I Live and Die by Hitchcock.
- [57:01]
Jen Sullivan
I could see that in your work. Yeah. Okay. Favorite flower.
- [57:06]
Douglas Little
A favorite flower is Daturis dramonium, also known as angel's trumpet or jimsonweed.
- [57:13]
Jen Sullivan
Tell us why.
- [57:14]
Douglas Little
So Angel's trumpet, the reason it got its name is it is a highly, highly toxic, toxic plant. Highly potent. One of the key ingredients that's used in the witch's flying ointment, it has a atropine in it that causes delirium, asphyxia. And used in small amounts, it mimics the effect of lsd. And it is absolutely the most beautiful flower. It is the epitome of dangerous beauty. Because when the flower blooms, it is this large trumpet shaped flower. It comes in white, cream, purple and pink. And it exudes a fragrance that is a cross section of like bergamot, mint, lilac and freesia.
- [57:58]
Jen Sullivan
Okay. And you can extract it, that scent.
- [58:00]
Douglas Little
No, you cannot. It is completely. You can't extract it at all. The whole plant is highly toxic. And the other part about that I love is that the fragrance becomes. You can only really smell the fragrance at night.
- [58:12]
Jen Sullivan
Have you ever tried to make an Accord that mimics it?
- [58:15]
Douglas Little
Yes. And as a matter of fact, we are launching a fragrance that is an homage to it in spring.
- [58:22]
Jess Matlin
Ooh, I just looked it up. It's fabulous.
- [58:25]
Douglas Little
Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's a beautiful flower.
- [58:28]
Jess Matlin
Wow. Okay, good trumpet.
- [58:31]
Jen Sullivan
Okay, the next question is, what's your favorite snack? We're deep. We contain levels here.
- [58:39]
Jess Matlin
Mascara.
- [58:40]
Douglas Little
Oh, my God, I love this favorite snack. Let's see. This is tricky for me because snacks are off the table for me at the moment, but.
- [58:48]
Jess Matlin
Yeah, I feel like you're really into fitness.
- [58:51]
Douglas Little
Yes.
- [58:52]
Jess Matlin
Like always or is this like a new thing?
- [58:55]
Douglas Little
It's been, you know, it's been something that I've. I've dipped and dived.
- [58:58]
Jess Matlin
This is a fat mascara. 7.
- [59:01]
Douglas Little
I. I've kind of gone in and out of my fitness, my world of fitness. But about, I think it was about six years ago I made the decision that I wanted to do a bodybuilding competition. And so I've been working towards that goal. And so my whole world has changed. Like, I stopped drinking. I really changed my life completely. And I wasn't a heavy drinker, but I was, you know, I really enjoyed drinking and snacking and, like, snack foods became completely off the table. So. So my snacks now are really boring. If I was, to be honest, with.
- [59:36]
Jen Sullivan
You, but do we have a fun beverage at least? Like a nice Celsius or something?
- [59:41]
Douglas Little
I will tell you.
- [59:41]
Jen Sullivan
Favorite fruit.
- [59:43]
Douglas Little
And I can't have fruit either. My favorite. My favorite beverage of all time, and I live and die by it. And I actually interviewed the girl who started it was a company called Ghia.
- [59:54]
Jess Matlin
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay.
- [59:57]
Douglas Little
I love Gheea. Love it, love it, love it. It is, like, for anyone who's trying to stop drinking, highly recommend it. Check out Ghia. It's such an interesting company. And the product, really, it's not like a bullshit, non alcoholic, sweet drink. It's just a really interesting, provocative drink.
- [60:15]
Jen Sullivan
We're going to let that be your snack then. There you go. Last question.
- [60:18]
Jess Matlin
Okay.
- [60:19]
Jen Sullivan
Oh, this is a new one we added. You have your phone there. I know, because you're doing your backup. Can you open for us the Notes app, and tell us, if you don't mind, what the last note you wrote was? If you can.
- [60:31]
Douglas Little
You guys are assholes. Oh, my God, I cannot believe this. I'm so afraid of this right now. I really, really and truly, I cannot believe.
- [60:42]
Jen Sullivan
Let's see what it is before you decide to, you know.
- [60:44]
Jess Matlin
Yeah, we're not like, show us your camera. Roll.
- [60:47]
Douglas Little
Yeah, you really don't want that. You really want to know. It's so boring.
- [60:52]
Jess Matlin
That's what's funny. That's what we like.
- [60:54]
Douglas Little
Oh, my God. My last note was, you need to order essential oils, and then it lists out all of my essential oils. And just so you guys can understand the level of, like, creativity versus business, at the end of the list, it says you also need to do ap.
- [61:17]
Jess Matlin
What's. Accounts payable.
- [61:18]
Douglas Little
Yeah. Yes.
- [61:19]
Jen Sullivan
Oh, my gosh. Wait, can I just ask? I'm sorry. This is so on brand for you, the essential oils. But I do have to ask, like, do you actually write the words you have to?
- [61:29]
Douglas Little
Yes.
- [61:30]
Jen Sullivan
That's actually interesting to me that you talk to yourself in that way in the Notes app. Like, mine would just be the list of oils and I would know what it was, you know? But I like that you gave yourself a command.
- [61:39]
Douglas Little
No, I have to give myself a command.
- [61:41]
Jen Sullivan
You have to.
- [61:43]
Jess Matlin
I like that there's more accountability.
- [61:45]
Jen Sullivan
You have to come back on fat mascara. We've so sure we haven't gotten to.
- [61:50]
Jess Matlin
I know we had, like, seven more questions, but I just feel like you're a very interesting person.
- [61:54]
Douglas Little
Yeah, thank you. That's.
- [61:56]
Jen Sullivan
This was so fun.
- [61:58]
Douglas Little
You guys are. This. This is a blast. I mean.
- [62:01]
Jess Matlin
Oh, thank you.
- [62:01]
Douglas Little
Such a blast. Jessica, I have been a fan of your work and I really love what you so this was like such a pleasure and and I think you guys do really, really cool, provocative interviews. So it was really, really an honor.
- [62:16]
Jess Matlin
Thank you. I think this has been really fun and we wanted to have you on for a long time. So this was awesome. Thanks for saying yes.
- [62:23]
Douglas Little
Oh my gosh, such a pleasure.
- [62:26]
Jess Matlin
We hope you enjoyed the show.
- [62:28]
Jen Sullivan
It's your reviews and feedback that help us make the podcast even better. Head over to itunes to rate and review us or email your thoughts to infoatmass.
- [62:37]
Jess Matlin
We also want to answer your beauty questions and hear what products you love, to share a Razone product review or to ask a beauty question. Email us at infoatmascara.
- [62:46]
Jen Sullivan
If you send it as a voice memo file, we can even share your voice on the podcast. You can also do that by leaving us a voice message. Our phone number in the United States is 646-481-8182.
- [62:57]
Jess Matlin
Thanks so much for listening.
- [63:03]
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