07.32: Ruination!

Summary

Fated Mates Podcast Summary: Episode 07.32 – "Ruination!"

Release Date: April 23, 2025

In Episode 07.32 of Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People, co-hosts bestselling author Sarah MacLean and romance critic Jen Prokop delve deep into the compelling and often controversial theme of ruination in romance novels. This episode, titled "Ruination!", explores how historical romance narratives employ the concept of a heroine being "ruined" or "compromised" and the broader implications of these plot devices on gender roles and societal perceptions.

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1. Introduction to Ruination (00:00 – 02:02)

Sarah MacLean opens the discussion by pondering the metaphorical significance of recent podcast episodes, leading into the main topic:

• Sarah MacLean [00:04]: "I proposed a different idea first... somewhere on the family tree of that idea was this one—what does it mean to be ruined?"

Jen Prokop agrees, highlighting the internal struggles these narratives often symbolize:

• Jen Prokop [00:09]: "...every single one of our episodes lately really feels like a metaphor for our internal struggle."

2. Defining Ruination in Historical Romance (02:02 – 05:11)

The hosts define ruination as a plot device where female protagonists suffer a scandal or event that tarnishes their reputation, affecting their social standing and romantic prospects.

• Sarah MacLean [02:02]: "...what does ruination mean in a contemporary setting? It’s different."

They contrast this with the lack of contemporary examples, noting that ruination is predominantly a feature of historical romances.

3. Gender Disparities in Ruination (05:11 – 09:47)

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the gendered nature of ruination:

• Sarah MacLean [05:11]: "Men aren't ruined."

Jen elaborates on how society treats ruined women versus men:

• Jen Prokop [05:12]: "Ruination is being used to control her... how do you fight back against that?"

The conversation emphasizes that while female characters are branded as "ruined," male counterparts rarely face similar societal condemnation.

4. Literary Examples of Ruination (09:47 – 23:19)

Sarah and Jen cite several authors and their works to illustrate different facets of ruination:

• Lisa Kleypas: Frequently portrays women as ruined, often needing rescue.
• Susan Elizabeth Phillips: Known for nuanced portrayals where ruination impacts protagonists differently.
• Lorraine Heath's "The Harlot Countess" [12:23]:
  • Jen Prokop [12:35]: "Maggie is ruined by a near assault, and society paints her with the broadest possible brush."

5. Themes and Plot Devices (23:19 – 32:23)

The hosts explore common themes associated with ruination:

• Sexual Ruination: Central to many historical romances, where a woman’s virginity or purity is compromised.
  • Sarah MacLean [13:33]: "Ruination in these books is almost always about sex."

They discuss how these narratives reflect and reinforce patriarchal norms, perpetuating double standards where men's indiscretions are excused, and women's are condemned.

6. Character Development and Overcoming Ruination (32:23 – 45:37)

Sarah and Jen analyze how heroines navigate and overcome their ruined status:

• Sarah MacLean [45:25]: "Simon has to really reckon with what he's done... Joanna writes heroines who have survived and thrived despite their ruin."

They highlight strong, resilient female characters who challenge societal expectations and reclaim their autonomy.

7. Ruination in Contemporary Romance (45:37 – 85:58)

Transitioning to modern settings, the hosts discuss how ruination manifests differently:

• Jen Prokop [82:09]: "Modern ruination is often about financial and social instability post-divorce or abuse."

They compare historical and contemporary ruination, noting a shift from overt sexual scandals to more nuanced challenges such as emotional trauma and societal reintegration.

Example: Kristen Ashley's "Ride Steady"

• Jen Prokop [85:16]: "Krissa's ruination comes from being abandoned by a manipulative husband, reflecting modern patriarchal issues."

8. Evolution and Future of Ruination in Romance (85:58 – 87:37)

Sarah and Jen contemplate the future trajectory of ruination in romance novels:

• Sarah MacLean [86:03]: "Ruination, especially sexual, will continue to exist as a narrative device to explore and challenge gender norms."

They express a desire for more empowered heroines who navigate ruination with agency and strength, moving beyond traditional tropes.

9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts (87:37 – End)

Wrapping up the episode, Sarah MacLean emphasizes the importance of understanding and redefining ruination:

• Sarah MacLean [87:35]: "Enjoy yourselves. If you get ruined this week, we hope you're having a great time doing it."

The hosts encourage listeners to engage with these narratives critically, recognizing both their limitations and potential for progressive storytelling.

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Notable Quotes

• Jen Prokop [00:09]: "Every single one of our episodes lately really feels like a metaphor for our internal struggle."
• Sarah MacLean [05:11]: "Men aren't ruined."
• Jen Prokop [13:44]: "Women are not allowed to cat around and they are judged for having a high body count."
• Sarah MacLean [23:05]: "He would have been like, you must orgasm."
• Jen Prokop [85:16]: "Modern ruination is often about financial and social instability post-divorce or abuse."

Key Takeaways

• Ruination is a prevalent trope in historical romance, primarily affecting female protagonists and reinforcing patriarchal norms.
• Gender Disparities: While women face severe societal consequences for ruination, men rarely encounter similar condemnation.
• Character Resilience: Successful narratives often feature heroines who overcome ruination with strength and agency.
• Contemporary Shifts: Modern romances explore ruination through themes like emotional trauma and social reintegration, moving beyond solely sexual scandals.
• Future Directions: There's a growing desire for more nuanced and empowered portrayals of women dealing with ruination in romance literature.

Fated Mates continues to illuminate the intricate dynamics of romance tropes, encouraging readers to both enjoy and critically assess the stories they cherish.

Transcript

[Sarah MacLean]

You know what I was thinking about today, Jen?

[Jennifer Prokop]

I wonder if it's the same thing I was thinking about. You go first.

[Sarah MacLean]

I don't know. Were you thinking that you wish you'd been compromised in a ballroom?

[Jennifer Prokop]

No. I was thinking it's funny how every single fucking one of our episodes lately really feels like a metaphor for our internal struggle. Is everything ruined? Do you wish you were on the run and could escape this? How about on a fast horse? That's how I feel. But, you know, sure.

[Sarah MacLean]

Everything seems to go fine if you're compromised in a ballroom.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure. I'm sure that's totally how it worked. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, it's not at all how it worked. You became a pariah. But is that so wrong? Is that so bad? Welcome everyone, to Fated Mates. I'm Sarah Maclean. I read romance novels and I write them.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And today's topic.

[Sarah MacLean]

Ruination.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Ruination. A metaphor.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, no, I'm compromised.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And not your banking passwords.

[Sarah MacLean]

No, the good kind of compromised. But it's interesting because I. We had a different. I had a different idea that I proposed. Right. I proposed a different idea first. And then we came, we settled on this. Because we're gonna hold that other idea for another episode. Because I actually, as I was thinking about this episode and like doing a little rereading and like doing a little thinking about the books that I wanted to talk about, I was like, oh, no, this actually is a very different. Yeah, it's a different topic than that. So. But down. But like somewhere on the family tree of that idea was this one the sort of what does it mean to be ruined? And why do we love books where people are ruined?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, and as I was doing some rereading and thinking, obviously this I think really skews historical and I think we'll mostly talk about historicals. I found myself thinking and wondering, like, what would it look like? What does it mean? What does ruination mean in like a contemporary setting? And. Right. Like it's not really analogous. I think it's different. And then the difference between a self inflicted ruination versus.

[Sarah MacLean]

Do you mean intentionally self inflicted?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right. Because I feel like that's a different thing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, it's.

[Sarah MacLean]

I think.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, we'll talk about it based on this is based on a book. I read one of the books.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, we don't have to save it for the pod. We're here.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I know. Well, I wanted to talk about it when we got to the book.

[Sarah MacLean]

Fine, let's Talk about it when we get to the.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Alright, we need to talk about ruination first.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, let's talk about it. Okay. So Ruination. I don't have a single contemporary book on my list though I would say that when you, when you just said you. What you just said made me think of. Of a specific book where I was like, oh, I guess there's like ruination contemporary but it doesn't feel. It doesn't hit the same.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna just trust the process. I have like three books on my list but I trust by the end I will have talked about 17.

[Sarah MacLean]

Okay.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I feel like this, I do feel like this is one of those topics where.

[Sarah MacLean]

Where you gotta grease the oil, lube up the ye.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Old brain cells, whatever there are left.

[Sarah MacLean]

Got a brain loop.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And ruination we're experiencing.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well also I'm still. Listen, I. We've said this before but Eric was right. I know it gives him a little bit of joy every time he hears us say it. So here it is. My gift to him this week is Eric was right. And while I do have some authors on my list who we have discussed before, I have I think all new books on my list.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, that's good for you. I have a. I have a coup that I've talked about before but I do have a couple new ones that I.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, there are some classic. There is. I also will say like, well, we'll save it for the pod. Okay, let's talk. Because I think there are some writers who write ruined characters again and again and again.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like Lisa Clapis.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like Lisa Klepas. I was like, wait, why are there seven?

[Sarah MacLean]

I'm like, make it a list of my list. Every one of these is ruined.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Can I suggest that in contemporary I think the author who does that would be Susan Elizabeth Phillips.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh yeah. Well, she loves. It's Heroin against the wall.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Exactly. And you know, I love that. So we're gonna. Let's talk about though historical.

[Sarah MacLean]

Because here's the truth, everyone. Men aren't ruined.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean they are ruined. Not in the same way.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean existentially, men are ruined.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

But okay, so here's the deal. So I think there's. So we're. We're going to talk about the gender of it all. I think like there's a lot to get unpack here. But so for those of you who are new ruination. And for those of you who don't read historical and oh my God, here's the other thing. So the survey Is done, everybody.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, tell me.

[Sarah MacLean]

And we will start talking about results in a little bit when we've looked at it. But the reality is, is that I have peaked. And there are a few people who, like, I think don't.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, I thought you meant, like, I've peaked. Like, I'm on the down slope.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I was like, I mean, that's possible always, but that's just my daily. No, I wake up and my morning mantra is, good morning, sunshine. I have peaked. Anyway, the note. But I have peeked at the results of the survey, and there are. What's interesting is there are a lot of people who, like, one thing we did not ask is what kind of romance do you listen to? Which feels. What do you read? Which feels dumb of us. Also, Eric was like, he had something too. And he was like, I can't believe. Oh, where do you buy your books? Like, literally, where. Because Eric got on the Discord this week, everybody, and he was like, I think he said it nicer. But he was basically like, what is up with you people? Related to the buy links in all of our stuff because we have been. All right, I'm like, in seven different directions. Just go with it. I have house guests coming today. It's a whole thing. I've been up for three hours. It's 8am so. Okay. By links. If you are interested in our BI links or interact with them at all, you will have noticed that if the book is available outside of Amazon, which obviously we understand that a lot of indie authors are still, like, in the Amazon universe, and we are very happy to support authors. Like, first and foremost, we want to sell books. We want to sell good books. We want to encourage our listeners to interact with good books. So if your book is in ku, we're obviously very happy to talk about it. Happy to talk about it. We did have somebody on the survey who was like, I stopped listening because you recommended too many books in ku, and I don't understand that. Like, we recommend books we love.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, we can't throttle our.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, yeah, it's. This podcast is free. So I'm sorry we lost you, but I can't change that for you. Anyway, the. But then there was. There is this question of, like, for a while after there was this discussion, like, bookshop was selling ebooks, like, we were moving, moving away from the Amazon. Like, the dominate world domination of Jeff. Jeff Bezos. Now space domination of Jess Bezos and Katy Perry. We're just. It feels weird. We don't think Katy Perry needs to be inflicted on the entire wide world wide universe. And so we are linking to bookshop now and then when we can, like, if the book is available wide and the ebook is available through bookshop, we link to bookshop. And for a while, y'all were buying books that way. Like, we saw, like, okay, people are clicking on these bookshop links, like, it's happening. But now it seems like people aren't clicking on those bookshop links anymore. So we're sort of curious as to like, yeah, what's happening there? Anyway, Eric wandered into the Discord this week and was like, could somebody explain? But we didn't ask you on the survey.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I've been. I've switched to Kobo, which I attempt. I don't know if you remember, a few years ago, I attempted a switch to Kobo, and it didn't really take, but it has. I seems to be taking better. And I think it just. Just, like, really? But it's still like muscle memory is for me to, like, want to go to Amazon, so. But I think the thing. I have a Kobo. And so it's also just kind of easy to.

[Sarah MacLean]

In universe.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Right. So I am kind of dual platform right now.

[Sarah MacLean]

I have switched to bookshop for ebooks. And as you know, I don't really read in audio, but I have recently read a couple things in audio, and I bought them through Libro fm. See?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

So, you know. But it is a pain in the ass. I'll be honest. It has to. It's. And I think that's probably what's going on. Like, I. Eric was like, I don't understand. And I was like, I understand. I think people were just like. It's like, when you decide you're gonna start working out, you're like, actually, I don't like lunges. I'm not doing them anymore.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You know, I think for me, it's really hard because it feels like I have thousands of ebooks and they're all on my Kindle to, like, think about switching and, you know, to have to kind of be like, well, where is that book? And you know what somebody once said? And I was like, that's a good point. She's like, you know, you have, like, books on your bookshelf and some on the upstairs bookshelf and some on the downstairs, and you just have to find them. And, like, you have to think about your digital book platforms as also just being, like, different shelves. And I was like, true enough. But, yeah. So I. I think I'm a Kobo person now.

[Sarah MacLean]

I have no idea how we got down this rabbit hole, but here we are. Oh. Because we didn't ask people on the survey what kinds of romance they read. Like, I would be really interested, like, how many people don't read historical or don't read contemporary or whatever.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And it's interesting because I heard, because I sort of was vaguely looking at the comments where there was a comment box, and there are like 1500 people who filled out the survey. So it's. You know, the comments are like a novel. And so. And I would. I was scrolling and somebody did say, like, I never. I've never read a historical. Right. Like, I don't even know where to start. Well, so for you, our singular listener who has never read historical, but I don't think you're alone. I think that there are probably many people here who've never read a historical. And what I would say to you is ruination is very particular kind of flavor of historical. And I think that there are two versions of it. And maybe you tell me, Jen, if I'm right and if there are more or if you. If there are more or if I'm wrong.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But the.

[Sarah MacLean]

I think the two versions are. One is she is ruined.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And the other is they are compromised.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I. Okay.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, I think they are compromised is a layer. It's like a second layer of the she is ruined cake. No one cares if he's ruined.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I think there is, like, ruination is being used to control her. Like. Right. A threat of ruination. Right. So I'm thinking of, like, chasing Cassandra. Elisa Claypas book. Right. Which is, you know, essentially in order, you know, the bad guy wants to force Cassandra to marry him or, you know, or it's a little bit more complicated and like, essentially, like, puts out a fake. Puts out some fake news that, like, she's been compromised. And then it's kind of like, how are. How do you fight back against that? How do you prove you weren't ruined? Right. Can't be done. And so unless you are Tom Severin, in which case what you do is you buy the newspaper and you force the editor to tell you who did it. And then you figure out who the bad guy is, and then you save the day and you marry Cassandra yourself. That is the only way out of such a trap.

[Sarah MacLean]

Or in the Lorraine Heath book, where the Duke just installs his. Just instructs his descendants forever into eternity.

[Jennifer Prokop]

God.

[Sarah MacLean]

To find the photographs.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Lorraine Heath, What a genius you are. And. And what I love about that is.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, what I love. Listen We've talked about this epilogue in adn. Multiple.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The best epilogue.

[Sarah MacLean]

I forget the name of the Duke. The Duke Hunt. The Duke Hunt.

[Jennifer Prokop]

One of those. I'll put it in show notes. Look down at your phone. I'll put the right one right there.

[Sarah MacLean]

The photo is there. So. But what's amazing about that is in one kind of like whatever, like 10 page epilogue, not even like six page epilogue, she has established not only that like his power, his domination over the world is forever, but also that every single fucking Duke who came after him was just a decent goddamn person.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like it's unreal how she does that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, it's perfect. It really is.

[Sarah MacLean]

Anyway. But so. Yes. But I also want to talk about sex. Right. Because ruination in these books is almost always. I mean, almost always about sex.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

If it's not about sex, it's about family and like, reputation of the family.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Uh huh.

[Sarah MacLean]

But it's almost always about sex.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Agree.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I mean, when I say almost, I mean like 90% of the time. So we have like a sex problem here, which is men are allowed to cat around and they're like considered rakes who are sowing their wild oats like before they settle down. And even after they settle down, who cares if they have mistresses and like, you know, whatever. But obviously, I mean, this is sort of like the. The most obvious statement I've ever made. But like, women are not allowed to cat around and they are judged for having a high body count or a body count at all.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, right.

[Sarah MacLean]

To use the parlance of our time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Jess K. Hardy, author of Wish you were here so.

[Sarah MacLean]

Everyone knows how much I love Jess's Bluebird Basin series. This is seasoned romance at its sexiest and its finest. And the third book in the Bluebird Basin series is out right now. This is it. And you've met these characters before. You've met Kevin. Kevin is one of the characters who was staying at Bluebird Basin on the ski hill in the first book and relapsed after rehab in the second book. And now he's back and he has come to realize that he has never in his life loved anything the way he loved Davis Thompson. And she has never been so happy or so in love as she was with Kevin. The problem is addiction is brutal on people and the people who love them. And in order for Kev to win Davis back, he is going to have to recommit to her, to himself, and to reconciling with the secrets that they keep from each other and the ways that they have hurt, hurt each other throughout the series and before. This one is for anybody who really wants a brutal book about two broken people having to heal themselves before they heal each other. But don't discount the fact that this is gonna have that signature Jess Hardy humor, that high heat, seasoned romance that we all come to Jess for, and a really beautiful redeemed happy ending.

[Jennifer Prokop]

If you're interested in checking out Wish youh Were Here, it is available with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. But if you are a completist and need to start with the first book of the series, come as you Are is available right now for only 99 cents. So you can just go back to the beginning and start there. Either way, you are going to have a great time at Bluebird Basin. And if you click on the chapter title right now, you'll be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Jess K. Hardy for sponsoring this week's episode. So, can we talk before we talk about other people's books? One of my favorite of your books.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, no.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Which is a Scott in the Dark.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, Lily and Alec.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And you know what? I think, like, one of the things about this book that I really loved is that Lily is ruined, essentially because she's lonely.

[Sarah MacLean]

Lily's ruined by, like, she really trusted a person.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

The premise of this book is she really trusted a man who was an artist and who was like, you're my muse. And painted a nude of her.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she thought they were going to be together.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she had no one else.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's the loneliness part, Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I mean, a lot of historical heroines are, like, alone, but somehow, you know, I mean, I. I grew up on a certain kind of Garwood heroine. Right. Which was like, I'm alone. No other women exist in the world. But somehow I'm perfectly happy. Right. And content and awesome and, you know, whatever it's like. But I mean, Lily was just so lonely.

[Sarah MacLean]

She's sad. Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And sad. And I found I wanted to just, like, sweep her into my arms and, like, be like. Just sit down and watch some tv.

[Sarah MacLean]

So did Alec. They didn't have. But that's what all he wanted was to break shit and love her.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. But I mean, I think the thing about her ruination. Because there is proof. There's this painting, right? Proof. I think that's the part that I also thought was really brilliant about that book was, like, making it wasn't just gossip and Innuendo. Right. Like, there was something about it that made it so that everyone felt pretty sure that they knew exactly what had happened. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right. Another piece of the puzzle is. So there are multiple kinds of ruination, and they don't seem to matter to society. Right. Like, Lily is ruined by a terrible man who she really thought she. I mean, like, she thought she loved him. Like, she trusted him and loved him and did this thing, and he just. He wrecked her. Like, he was a terrible person. And, like, nobody cares about that. Nobody's like, well, that's. That's forgivable. Because she thought that it was going to end in, like, marriage and children and love, like, in a future and happily ever after. There's no difference in society's eyes between that and, say, Joanna Shoop's the Harlight Countess, where Maggie, the protagonist, is ruined, like, with a near assault, you know, at the beginning of the book, or it's not at the beginning, but, like, you know, in the past. Like this. This is the instrument of her ruination.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And being a victim.

[Sarah MacLean]

And, like, no, it doesn't. It doesn't matter. Like, it is. The society paints these women with the broadest possible brush just as it continues to. Like, what comes before has absolutely no power in shifting societal expectations.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And I think the other of your heroines I really was interested in when I was thinking this way, and I know you hate talking about your books, but give me. Indulge me for one more second, is Felicity, who isn't really ruined necessarily, but her parent, her family, by putting her in these really sort of precarious situations, you know, in terms of, like. Right. Like going out into this, like, little marriage game. And, you know, that happened in. In Day of the Duchess and, you know, is. Ruins her because it. Right. It isolates her in some sort of profound way, and she doesn't really understand the bigger picture. And so when she then sort of tells everybody, like, oh, yeah, this guy's gonna marry me, or whatever, right. Like, she's just trying to get back with her friends. She, like, they have cut her off. She doesn't really quite understand or realize what's happening until she gets, like, the key piece of information that her family is essentially destitute. Like, her dumb fucking brother lost all their money. And it's not ruination in the sense that she is, like, ruined, like, in the same way, but it is adjacent in the. Like, everything's fucked. Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Everything's fucked.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Everything's fucked. And that's falling on you.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. You are the way that we can fix this.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So I. Again, she's not ruined. But ruination, I do think broadly, is interesting to me in the. Like, everything's fucked away as well.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, and one. And as you just said, like. And here's a woman who's going to have to either who's gonna bear the brunt of it. And like is the only instrument of saving.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Correct.

[Sarah MacLean]

And that's the part that's so, like, fuck everything.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Like, your body. Right. Is worth everything or nothing. Yep, yep. Right. And if you decide to do with it versus us deciding to do with it what to do with it. That's the right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And we haven't even gotten to the ruination that comes from not being wanted. Right. So you're ruined if somebody. If, like, you are found in a compromising or sexual position, but if you've gone three or four seasons, then you're spoiled. Like, you're just, like, on the shelf. Because, like, who would want that? Why would you marry. Like, there must be something wrong with her. Right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

So, like, we're not really talking about on the shelf, though. That is an episode we should do because it's very fun. Spinsters are fun. Have we ever done a spinster episode? Put it on the list.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'm putting it on the list, everybody.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's coming. And so. So there's. So there's that and then there's. But there's this kind of bigger. So I think we should talk about gender too here, because I do think that, like, when a man is ruined in these books and, like, rendered on. I mean, is there anything that renders a man unmarriageable in these books?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Not if he's titled.

[Sarah MacLean]

Not even, like, if he's thought to have killed his wife.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Which, like, a lot of these heroes are thought to have murdered their first wives.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

They don't, by the way. That's never the case. Right. You're safe.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. I find this conversation, frankly, it's, like, really almost hard to have, considering I feel like we're seeing, like, the retrenching of sort of these gender roles, like the attempt to reach.

[Sarah MacLean]

Sure. We elected a rapist president.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Right. Yeah. I don't know. Conversation over. Right. Like, so I think there is a sense that there's, you know, what. What's really possible or not. Now, it's interesting, though, because I will tell you, Sarah, I started a book and I don't. I know we don't usually talk about books like that didn't work for us, but, like, that was, like, too much for me in this way. And it was Breathless by Ann Stewart. And I was like, well, Ann Stewart writes on stuff.

[Sarah MacLean]

Ann Stewart's been around for a million shows.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, right. I was like. So I don't feel like I'm gonna hurt Ann Stewart's feelings by saying this, but it was. It was too much for me. Like, I. I quit. And. And. And I. But I did. Why?

[Sarah MacLean]

What was it about it?

[Jennifer Prokop]

So let me tell you. First of all, I think that this, to me, if, like, sometimes I see a claim that, like, you know, like, old school bodice rippers or whatever are, like, early dark romance. And I'm always kind of, like, a little suspicious of that claim. But I feel like this book potentially is one where I was like, I would accept that. I will accept that in this case. So the book starts out, and, I mean, I want to say I maybe read 5 or 10% of it with. I think her name's Miranda. Hold on, let me. Okay, so in the book, it starts off with Miranda Rohan. She's, like, 21 or 22, and she's just gonna, like, meet this, like, hot guy at, like, the Vauxhall Gardens. Is that what it's called? And she knows she really shouldn't be doing it, but she also is pretty confident. She comes from a family that really, like, loves her and supports her, and she doesn't really think she will ever be in danger. And this man essentially takes her on the road, like, kind of is gonna, like, you know, we're gonna go to Scotland and you're gonna marry me because I want your money. And she. And you guys, listen. I'm, like, content. Warning on the following conversation. This is page three. She's like, well, you know, she's thinking, like, she's so mad at herself, right? But we're gonna stop at, like, a coaching inn, and then I'll, like, escape there. Well, they don't. They stop at a cottage, and he rapes her. And she. And on Paige, Miranda's like, it wasn't raped. She says this was, like, that sentence because once she saw what was happening, she figured she might as well try, right? Like, why? Like, kind of. But, like, clearly it is. It is rape. Like, we as readers understand what she like, right? And he has her for a couple of days until she, like, essentially hits him over the head and takes his horse and runs off and then runs into her family, whoever, like, essentially storming after them to try and save them, to save her. And she is ruined. And then we find out that like the man who becomes the hero, quote unquote, put this guy up to it because he is out. He has a vendetta against the family. And I was like, oh boy. And I was like, I'm not. I'm not interested in this story anymore. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's not that. I mean, but. And Stuart, everybody. I mean like, talk about somebody who like consistently takes the finger, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

And in this case, this is a tough nut to swallow.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And you know what else I was really fascinated by is I was sort of like, oh, this probably was from like 1987. It was 2010. No. And I was like, wait, really? That's what Goodreads says. And I do feel like Goodreads is a pretty.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's not a new edition.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, usually Goodreads will have the original one. But please check Breathless by Ann Stewart.

[Sarah MacLean]

Check Fiction DB I guess I'm going there right now. Everybody, if you have questions about genre.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And about a real publication date of something.

[Sarah MacLean]

I give money to Fiction DP annually. Because I'm like. Because I use it so much.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

It did.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I was kind of like, it can't possibly be 2010. But you know what? Who the knows? Maybe it was Sarah's looking it up. Everybody. But I did.

[Sarah MacLean]

It was.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But you all. I had to stop reading it. I was like, you know what? I am not. That's rough this, right? Like the hero essentially like blackmailed the first guy into ruining her to get.

[Sarah MacLean]

Back at the family to find out what happens.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, I just wasn't interested. I really wasn't.

[Sarah MacLean]

Ah, see, the hero's name is Lucien.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's.

[Sarah MacLean]

Listen.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure should have known. Here's the part that was.

[Sarah MacLean]

Lucian are bad seeds.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The reason I got maybe as far as I did is she finds freedom in ruination. Yeah, right. She's kind of like.

[Sarah MacLean]

But at the same point, at the same time, the hero basically hired a man to rape her. That's correct. I mean, sure. It's. Here's. Here's the truth. It's going to come out that he never expected. Like that was not part of the plan.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh no, it was Sarah. Oh no. I quit. When he is on page with the guy and he's like, well, did you ruin her at least? And I was like, oh, oh no. Yeah. No, no. Like. And that's why I said I was like. This is the first time I.

[Sarah MacLean]

Wait.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I would call that a dark romance.

[Sarah MacLean]

Cuz it's interesting here. And I've got. Listen, this is where you get into your like little Mind of being a romance reader. Because I agree with you, this is a non starter for me.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

However, in the event that he had not hired another man to do this, and he had done this himself.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, sure. That I would have read it.

[Sarah MacLean]

I'm sorry. Listen, we contain multitudes here at Beta Mates.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, well, because in those circumstances, he would have been like.

[Sarah MacLean]

I'm wrong. Because it wouldn't have been written the same way.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. Of course.

[Sarah MacLean]

He would have been like, you must orgasm.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, right, of course.

[Sarah MacLean]

And somehow we would have been like, this is fine. Yeah, it's really interesting. Right, Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, kind of where those lines are.

[Sarah MacLean]

How you have to thread the needle in like a. In a very particular kind of way for romance. And I should say also, like, that plot that I just described is certainly a plot that we have seen many, many times over the years that you see fewer. You don't see it as often anymore. I mean, like, I've written. You mentioned Felicity.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

In Wicked and the Wallflower. The hero of that book, Devil, I love him.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Devil, I love you.

[Sarah MacLean]

Name is Destiny, is basically like, I'm gonna ruin Felicity Faircloth. And then he's like the softest, sweetest baby about it. Like, you just can't. It feels like you can't do that the same way.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. I DNF'd. I do not recommend it. Right. Like, I just was like, oh, no, this isn't. It's too much for me.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. But it's, you know. So anyway, dark romance lovers. There you go. Head over to Anne Stewart's Breathless. You might have a great time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Can I, like, maybe, like, take the edge off with one of my favorite ruination stories? And, like, let me go the opposite way. Real. Just like a little snippet of my favorite Marrying Winterbourne, which is. And we've talked about this book.

[Sarah MacLean]

We did a deep dive on Marrying Winterbourne.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But the thing that's really funny is he basically talks her into, like, let's have sex first, because then we will have to marry. Like, if you wanna marry me and I wanna marry you, this is the way to get it done.

[Sarah MacLean]

Sneaky motherfucker.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But the greatest scene in this book is she's downstairs with Kathleen kind of being like, well, that's what they're talking about upstairs. And Kathleen's like, wait, what? He's gonna tell Devin what? Right? And then. And then she's like, we have to stop him. And she's like. Helen's like, I'm sure that he already knows. Kathleen's like, no, we would hear. And then all of a sudden, you're, like, banging and yelling from the stairs. And it is. I am sorry. The greatest romance. It's so fucking funny.

[Sarah MacLean]

There are. Don't wait. Pause. Because now we have. We have a whole segment of romance that we have to talk about, which is she is ruined by him. And the family discovers it. Because this kiss is usually just like Chef's kiss. And I will say I don't like to talk about my books, but I do feel that part of the whole reason why no one will fucking stop asking me for Benedict's book is because of the scene where Ralston in Nine Rules to Break when romancing. A break when Ralston, the hero, has fully ruined the heroine and she won't marry him because love. What a dummy. And then he goes to her brother, like, I ruined your sister.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Benedick calmly removes his glasses and is like, you understand now that I'm going to have to hit you? Like, it's like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's so great. It really is.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then he does, and then it's fine.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Piper Raine, author of the One I Didn't See Coming.

[Sarah MacLean]

So Briar has a problem, Jen. Chicago, the city of. Has chewed her up and spit her out.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I just don't believe that. But okay.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's not entirely Chicago's fault. It's mainly the fault of this guy she trusted and who ended up being, like, an absolute terrible liar and a bad person. And so now she has no choice but to, like, beat the hell out of Chicago and head back to her hometown in, like, intellectual disgrace. Like her own mental disgrace.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure.

[Sarah MacLean]

At home in her hometown is her older sister, who is a consummate fixer and has solved the problem. She's got Briar a job as a yoga instructor on her fiance's family ranch. Problem is, this doesn't solve anything. In. In fact, it makes everything much more complicated, because the family ranch, because her older sister's fiance is actually brother to Emmett Naughton, who is Breyer's high school crush. And this is crush with a capital C. She wrote his name in her notebooks. She was obsessed with him, and he fully did not know she existed. Here's the problem. She now realizes that there is no way she's going back to this, like, high school crush situation. She is a grown woman with a job, and he suddenly is very much realizing that exists. So a little bit of tension there and a little bit of confusion on Briar's part is, I think, going to lead to some pretty great tension and other things between Briar and Emmett, I hope. And we know that because it's Piper Rain and they know the job.

[Jennifer Prokop]

All right, so if you are interested in checking out the one I didn't see coming, it is available in print, audiobook and with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. If you click on the chapter title right now, you can be taken to buy the book. And as a special treat for fated mates listeners, at the end of this episode, there's an excerpt from the audiobook that has duet narration, which is really fun to listen to. So we want to say thank you to Piper Rain for sponsoring this week's episode.

[Sarah MacLean]

I have a book I said I was going to talk about a book that I think. I'm pretty sure we talked about this book. So we've talked about Gentle Rogue because Joanna, we did a deep dive of Gentle Rogue in season two. Gentle Rogue is a book that blooded Jen and me. There are some big things that are wrong with this book. Like in hindsight, like, we realized that if you're a shipping magnet moving from America to England in the Regency, you're definitely moving humans. Like, there are some problems with what's going on here in this book, though. Like, that is not articulated on the page in any way. And so it took us until we were, you know, four grown ups.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I was like, oh, no.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, no. Anyway, but in the second, is it the second or third book in the Anderson Mallory saga is the magic of you. Now the magic of you has a different situation, which is the age gap in this book is honestly unreal. But if you love a daddy, there you go. It's like the primordial daddy is Warren Anderson. And so he and the premise of this book, and I think the way that Joanna Lindsay threads the needle on the age gap here, is that Amy Mallory, who is very young in this book, like 19 or 20 in this book meets sees Warren Anderson at the wedding of one of the prior of like, I. It could even be the wedding of the couple in Gentle Rogue and is like, I want.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she's just like, that's him. I want that man. And she just pursues him relentlessly. And he's like, no, you are way too young for me. Absolutely not. I fucking loathe your uncles. We are mortal enemies. They ruined my sister and now married her. Like one of them married her. It's unacceptable. Like, this will never happen. And she just pursues him and pursues him and pursues him and pursues him. And then they end up fucking. And they are sleeping naked.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, no.

[Sarah MacLean]

In bed. And enter the Mallory brothers.

[Jennifer Prokop]

God. Listen, you guys, it's so wrong that I'm so entertained by this.

[Sarah MacLean]

Such a delight. And the reality is, of course, like, Warren, of course, was going to marry her. Like, it's all sort of like, esta. Like, they're like, you're going to marry her. And, like, like, yes, obviously. I mean, they're actually not like, you're gonna marry her. They're like, we're gonna kill you. Which is like, another layer of this, like, the masculinity of, like, how dare you ruin this person? Like, how dare you? I need to take revenge on you. Like, right? There's a lot of gender stuff going on. But listen, these early Joanna Lindsay books come with all of the caveats of, like, they were written in the 80s. And, like, you just have to accept that, like, the text is going to be. But if you do love a kind of, like, beast Daddy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

The magic of you is for you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It'S gonna work, okay?

[Sarah MacLean]

But I do love those moments where the family stumbles upon it, and it's always brothers who just, like. Like, just lose their fucking minds.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay. I have a similar one, but I loved it. It's a little Bit Wild by Victoria doll.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, this is interesting. I was saving this one for the next one.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, interesting, because what happens is in. So Marissa is ruined because she is, like, essentially same thing, like, kind of bored. She's got this suitor who, like, wants to marry her, and she's turned him down a couple of times, but he has lovely long legs and looks great in bre.

[Sarah MacLean]

And so why the fuck not, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

And so listen, if she were a.

[Sarah MacLean]

Man, she just do it. Correct.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And so she. They do it, and it is like, we. The book opens with them fucking. And her being like, this is terrible. Like, why am I doing this? What is when her brother bursts in and, like, she's basically in the process of being like, get off of me. And this guy is like, now we'll marry. And she's like, no, we won't like this. No, we.

[Sarah MacLean]

Pardon me.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Excuse me. And her brother comes in and she's like, oh, my God, this is all awful. And the thing, though, is, is, like, this guy. The guy, whoever he is, is such a jerk that even the brother's like, get the out of here now. Then meanwhile, here's my other favorite part. The bro. She's like, don't tell anybody. And then, like, the other brother appears, right? And that one's the real hothead. And so the best.

[Sarah MacLean]

These are the best moments.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And so. And what they basically agree, you know, she's a little bit older, right? She's like, been out for a few seasons or whatever, is that. She will. So, okay, conveniently, older brother, hothead brother Aiden, his friend Jude is with them. And Jude is the natural son of a duke, which means the bastard son of a duke. But the duke recognizes him, right? Like, sort of says, this is my son. And he, like, was raised in the household after some point. His mother was a courtesan. A French. A French courtesan. And so Jude has a very matter of fact, like, sort of like, yeah, people have sex, that's fine. Not a big deal. And he has always. He's met Marissa a couple times and has always kind of been like, I like this one. She's a wild one. I like the wild ones. But he's like a big brute of a man, you know, he doesn't have beautiful, slim legs in his breeches. He has, you know, thick, large tree trunk legs in his breeches. Other things in his breeches.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Thank you for your patronage, Victoria Doll. So the brothers are like, well, who's gonna marry her, right? Like, who? You know, if you don't wanna marry him. But what if you're pregnant? And the part that's really fascinating that I think this book does so well. I mean, this book is terrific. Is she is like, oh, sh. I. Is that how that happens? I thought maybe it couldn't happen the first time, right? Like, so she knows enough. But again, like, you see, like, the pockets of ignorance because these young women were taught nothing about their own bodies. And so she essentially kind of talks her brother into, like, okay, Jude is like, I'll marry her. And everyone, like, you know, like, every head turns around like, why would you do that? And he's like, well, well, don't worry about it. I said I would. It's fine. And then what he tells her is, I've always wanted, like, a. A wildcat of a wife, and I think you're it. And she's, like, offended. But, like, he's, like. Knows that he's getting her. And then they go riding and she's like, actually, his legs are terrific. Look at the way he controls that horse.

[Sarah MacLean]

And tremendous work, everybody. And you know what I mean, Victoria doll, we love it, is she wrote a couple of historicals and they are all terrific.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. I think the thing, though, that I. I One of the things I do kind of. I did realize in reading this one versus, like, kind of the other one I do really like when they're ruined and find freedom in it or just like, sort of are like, this was my decision, and I know it was maybe dumb and foolish and I'm going to be paying some sort of price as opposed to. As much as I like to like, swooping in to save Cassandra, you know, her sort of like, I didn't do anything wrong and like, look what has been done to me. And, you know, it's just. And then like being like, frozen by that. That feels real. But I. I think I am at an age now where I'm like, well, if this is gonna be the topic, I want them, these women to just be so strong. And Marissa is really strong. And you know, Jude has her figured out, is like, she wants to be wild. And I want that in a wife. I don. Like a good society kind of quiet girl, mistress, you know, who's just not mistress, but like, you know, who'll do whatever I say. I'm looking for someone who will be my match. And Marissa never thought that was a possibility. She thought, I have to be wild before marriage because then I will be locked into being a good girl. And so there, what we see is like the. In the development of their romance. Right. It's just this sense that she realizes I don't. It doesn't have to be that way.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right. Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So. And it's. It's. It's really terrific. And I think even the thing that the. The brother thing, like, they both are just kind of like, we just don't want you to be miserable. We want. We don't want you to be isolated or ostracized. Like, it sucks, but this is the way it is, and we're here to be on your side. Right. So anyway, that one was a little bit wild.

[Sarah MacLean]

I love what you said about, like, you want a hair, a heroine who is really strong in the face of it. And I think you don't always find that. And that's a reasonable thing. Like, I think some, like, if you were ruined in real life, like, there's a lot. There's a lot to be. It is difficult necessarily to demand that from every. Every woman. But I feel the same way. Like, I want. For the same reason we both love heroin against the wall. Like, you want somebody who wants their against the wall, it comes out swinging. I mentioned this by. I sort of mentioned this vaguely at the beginning, but I want to talk a little More about Joanna shoups the Harlot Countess, which is so before Joanna wrote Gilded Age books, she wrote regencies, maybe Victorians. I don't actually remember what. When this was set, but the Harlot Countess is one of her early books. And. And the structure here is Maggie, who is the heroine, is ruined by her best friend's fiance, assaults her in, like, at the. You know, and it's terrible. And everyone thinks that it's her fault.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Including, like, her best friend. Everybody. Like, she loses everything. Everything.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And it's. You know, this is such a classic story. Like, it's really incredibly heartbreaking.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And at the time, Maggie was engaged, or at least, like, soon to be engaged, like, fully being courted by Simon, who is the hero of this book, who, when this all goes down, believes the hype, like, believes the concept. And it's like, okay, that's it. Like, we.

[Jennifer Prokop]

We're done.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, we're done. And so he is Simon Winchester. And Maggie, who is half Irish, becomes, like, a pariah in society. And the whole world starts to call her the Irish Harlot. And she's just sort of like. And then the. The gossip about her gets, like, bigger and bolder. And then it's like she basically gives it to everybody anytime they want. She's like, just like the biggest. The biggest slut in all of England. And of course, this is not true. Maggie has really pulled in and keeps to herself, and she has decided to do battle with these people on a public scale, but anonymously, by becoming a political cartoonist. And so she routinely. So Simon was. Is sort of, like, known. It's known that when he was younger, he really liked his drink. And so she creates this character in political cartoons called Simon Wine, called. Called Lord Wine Jester. And he's like, always just, like, blackout drunk in all of her cartoons. And it enrages him because, sure, she's doing this under a pseudonym, and he doesn't know who. Who it is. And so, like, the book kind of begins with Simon going to, like, art print shop and that notoriously prints all of these cartoons. And he's like, I will pay you whatever it takes to find out who this person is. And he offers them, like, a fortune, you know, £500. A thousand pounds. And they're like, no, our loyalty is to the artists.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And so he's just enraged by this. And it's really very fun to watch because he has to, like, grovel, right? Like, he has to crawl back to her. They. They finally see each other. It's 10 years later. They haven't spoken in all that time. She's, like, full of anger and sadness, and he is having to really reckon with what he did, how he was complicit.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

In her ruination and. But she is, like, one of the things Joanna does really well is, like, show you a heroine who has gone through it and survived. And, like, all of Joanna's heroines are survivors. And there's this kind of great moment where she is in. She, like. Of course, like, the pacing of Joanna's books are always, like, just rat a tat. Tat.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, he leaves the print shop and she's coming in and to deliver her newest, you know, creation. And while she's kind of there in that shop, she overhears, like, a collection of young women on the street who, like, should have been her friends. And they're like, that's the Irish Harlot. And you can, like, feel the heat of embarrassment and, like, frustration and indignation and the desire for her to just, like, scream that, like, that it isn't true, that you know nothing, that she's not responsible for it. Like, there's this really push, pull. And you can see in this book also the bones of Joanna's future work. Like, where when Joanna gets to the Gilded Age and she, like, gets. She's starting to write. She's, like, more comfortable in the way she is writing in the later books and in the story she wants to tell. You can see in the Harlot Countess, this kind of very real. The core story that we're. That is going to become, like, essential to these much later books, which is really about, like, what the world does to women. Anyway, that's the Harlot Countess. It's great. Simon has to, like, really reckon with what he's done. And there's kind of a great moment where he says to her, like, you should have told me. I would have believed you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she's like, would you have? But really, would you?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, Like, I think that's the other thing. It's like, yeah, it's about sex, but it's also about loyalty or trust or, like, whatever we. That is.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right. Like, leave women.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, right. Exactly. And I think that's why the. You know, I keep going back to, like, the Tom Severin of it. All. Right. Like, he never believes it for a second. And that makes him feel incredibly heroic. Right. Like, and it's. He instantaneously realizes that. That she's the. That she's been victimized.

[Sarah MacLean]

This week's. Episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by 1001 Dark Knights, publishers of Pride and Passion, an LGBTQIA love collection.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So I love these anthologies from 1001 Dark Knights, and this one is all about featuring love and celebrating it in all its vibrant forms. It features queer romances, polyamorous romances, and these books are, like, bold and tender. From first loves to maybe lifelong commitments. These are stories that just explore the full spectrum of passion, pride, and the beauty of being true to oneself. There are, as always in these collections four novellas. So we've got one of the Ink series by Carrie Ann Ryan. Those are always so great. The Flame by Christopher Rice. Hello, we love Christopher Rice. Jay Kenner's Tangled with youh and then Strung up by Lorelai James. So this is a chance for you to like, like, visit with authors you know and love and maybe experience somebody new. All in this great celebration of queer love and joy.

[Sarah MacLean]

So if you are looking for a terrific queer romance, this anthology is for you. You can find it right now in print, ebook, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited, if your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks, as always, to 1001 dark nights for sponsoring this week's episod.

[Jennifer Prokop]

What other Clay Piss books were on your list? Because I found myself thinking, and it's been a long time since I've read it, about Lawless Lily, which is. Then came you, which is like the book before Dreaming of you. And I think, like, I can't even really, like, sort of speak to, like, exactly how she was, like, ruined. But she really delights in shocking, like, sort of essentially like one of the, one of the things I'm interested in is, like, after you've been ruined, how do you. What, in what way do you exist in society?

[Sarah MacLean]

Right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I think this is just like, what made me think of it. Like, right, like, there's the surreptitious way you're gonna, like, sort of poke at everybody becoming this cartoonist. But in Lawless Lily case, like, there's also this like, like a brazenness to it, right? Like a way that you. She just, you know, nobody can tell her what to do. Or she's Lawless Lily. It's right there in the name. But then it's Alex, essentially, right, is supposed to marry her sister, and she's like, I'm gonna stop that from happening. And they end up together. And it's, it's great. And it's funny because, like, we talk about Dreaming of youf so often, but I don't know that we've ever talked about. About. Then came you.

[Sarah MacLean]

No, right? No. And again, the magic, the secondary love story that I love so much. She was in love and like, it didn't. It didn't happen. I think his. I think he died and like, they had like, they were fully compromised and. And he died and so she like. Doesn't that. God, it's so magical. It's like Cinderella, that book, that secondary love story where like, there's a ball going on inside the house and she. He comes upon her in the gardens and she's dancing alone. In the gardens? Yeah, and she's dancing alone in the gardens for two reasons. One, she's ruined and so like, there's no expectation that she'll ever marry. And like, she doesn't want to be judged or seen or stared at or, you know, whatevered in the ballroom. And two, because she loved. She had experienced this like, great love and he basically. Oh, that's just a great secondary love story. And then Tempt me at Twilight is Harry and Poppy and Harry Rutledge, who is a. Oh my God, like the most clay passion hero there is. Like, if you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

We.

[Sarah MacLean]

We did that New Year's Eve episode or. No, was it New Year's Eve that we did with Sanj? No, it was just like we did a. We did a Claypus episode with Sanjna and. And she. We like discussed like all of the clay bus heroes. But what we never really got, what we did not discuss was like, list them in order of the most clay passion. And like, I think Harry Rutledge probably is like. I mean, one of the classics because he's like a hotel owner and an inventor and he creates some like, automatons. Like. Yeah, he's just like a magical man. Anyway, and they. There, he's like classic, classic Playbist where like, they're flirty and like, he's just like. He says all sorts of things that get Poppy, like, so flustered and then like, they're compromised. Oops. And he's like, fine, then you marry me. And it turns out like that was the intention the whole time. I mean, classic, right? Like Winterbourne Y. Except like, sneaky.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

But there it is. And so, I mean, but I think that you could probably make the argument that. Well, I mean, Evie and Sebastian.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure. I mean. Yeah, I do. It's funny because I have the same thing and you know, it's just like some people I think are probably like More interested in this than others, right? In some kind of way. But I also feel like, you know, who's someone that doesn't maybe do it that often, but, like, I'm interested in it. And so I want to talk about Wild Rain by Beverly Jenkins, which is, I think, one of my favorite of her books probably. I mean, I love them all. It's just, like, for whatever, like. Right. But the thing about Spring is her male guardian. I don't think it was her father. I think it's like an uncle, essentially, is like, you're going to have to marry, you know, this disgusting person I want you to marry, right? And she was like, I'm not gonna do that. And she takes herself off to the local, like, she's amazing horsewoman, and she takes herself off to, like, the biggest ranch in the Wyoming territory near her and says, like, I want to work on the ranch. And it is made very clear to her that. That. That can happen. But she is going to essentially have to, like, service the owner, right? And she agrees because she is like, I. I want to be in charge of my own destiny more than I want to be told what to do. And she ends up, like, you know, like. Like, and. And then that happened far in the past, right? And now she's essentially escaped that situation. She lives on her own. You know, she sleeps with a gun in her bed. Like, that is the man in her bed, and is very much like, this is going to be the life I live. And I'm fine with it because it's the life I made for myself. But the town, of course, sees her as, like, a pariah, right? Like, how dare. Right? And I think one of the things that is really plain in this book is that, like, ruination is not just about sex, but, like, about, like, how dare a woman step outside of the bounds of society in a way we don't. Right. We didn't control. And therefore, like, we're going to punish her. And the hero then is a journalist named Garrett who has come to write about her brother, but then essentially, like, falls in love with Spring. And because he's an outsider, he is like, I don't like what's going on here, right? And I think the thing is, is, like, he is so. He's like, just the. The man she needs, right? Like, she doesn't need a man who's gonna, like, be like, I'm gonna be strong for you. She's like, I'm not interested in that. She just wants a man who will understand her. And as a Journalist. Right. His innate curiosity. Right. His sense of, like, who is this person in front of me? And what makes them tick makes him the perfect partner. Right? They're the perfect partner. So I really, you know, I really love this book because I really love. Loved. I really love spring. Right. I mean, she's. She's just such a great. She's such a great character. And I think it, again, speaks to that whole, like, I, you know, here's someone who was. Whose backup was against the wall, and she made a decision not a lot of people would. And now we're seeing, like, the half life of that. Right. It's not like in the moment. It's like, here's how this made me. Here's the crucible that made me. It's terrific. So that's Wild Rain by Beverly Jenkins. Jenkins.

[Sarah MacLean]

So I want to talk about Suzanne Enoch, who I'm not sure if we've ever talked about on the podcast, but I want to talk about the Rake, which I think, and I think a lot. I think most people believe that this is Suzanne's greatest work. Like, you know, there, you know, sometimes there's just a book that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

A book that hits.

[Sarah MacLean]

A book that hits. And a book that you just think of every time you think of that. That writer. And for me, I found the Rake. I mean, I must have found the Rake right when I was sort of really just glomming histor, like, through. I don't know when it came out, but I feel like I found it, like, the same time I found Lisa. Like, it just was the right time. And then I read, like, a ton of Enoch. And so the premise of the Rake is another Georgina, and she is so the. The series, though. And I don't know if this is her first series. It could be her first series, I don't know. But the series is about three women who make a commitment. The three of them have all been ruined by, like, rakish, like, bad, like, you know, scandalous men and rendered kind of unmarriageable. And they decide they get together and they form a club, and they decide they're going to ruin these men back. And so I think part of the charm of this book and part of the charm of this, like, genre of ruination books or compromised books is like you said before, you articulated as, like, she is freed by ruination.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

I think for a lot of these books, the appeal to me as a reader was they are freedom to do to these men what that. What has been done to them, like, to, like, revenge in A certain way. Right? So the way that this works is there's Georgina and Tristan, and they had, like. I like the twist on this, too, because the premise of this is that, like, years ago, like, I mean, maybe a decade ago, Tristan ruined Georgina by, like, trying to seduce her into falling for him as a wager. Like, there had been, like, a. I bet you I can get her.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I can do this. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And everybody, like. And then when people found out, like, it was.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It was just awful. It was awful.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then this. The one sort of thread of this that, like, might not hit quite the same now in 2025 is, like, come out that, like, Tristan's always had, like, since then, yes, he did it for the wager, but, like, he's always had a little bit of a thing for her. And what's interesting about the structure of this book, and I'm going to say, like, I didn't reread it for this episode, so Vibes, I guess. But the. The structure of this book, as I recall it is, and I've read it a couple times, is that Tristan has been. They've sort of been like, dancing around each other for this whole time. And while this as a plot device, the kind of. I'm going to seduce you as a. For, like. As a. Like, a bet on a bet is a common plot device in romance, right? The. She's all that of it. All there is. Or the, you know, 10 things I hate about you of it. All, right? There is this in this book that happens. That is the story that leads us to this moment, right? So, like, we've already seen him get caught in the wager. We've already seen the whole thing sort of fall apart. It's already happened at the beginning of this book. And so now it's the matter of, like, him having to apologize to her. Right? And as we all know, I love a hero who has to apologize. The longer and more painful, the better. So. But these two really, like, it's just obvious from the. From the jump, like, from the moment she's like, this man. I'm gonna ruin him back. Like, I'm gonna destroy him. That, like, this is just a terrible plan, right? Because we're gonna throw these two together. They've been dancing each around the part of the reason why he was so easy at the beginning for him to ruin her was like, they are into each other.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

But there is this great thing that runs through this, and we've talked over time about how good Lisa is at talismans, like, these like objects. Objects that continually come back over the course of a book. And I had forgotten, you know, until I really started thinking about this book this morning. There is a great moment in the. In the Rake. And it's over the course of the. The whole book, she breaks, like, every time she's angry with him. And listen, some people are not gonna like this, but I really loved it. Every time she's angry with him, she hits him with her fan. She'll, like, close her fan and smack him on the wrist on the, like, hand.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she breaks the fans. And every time he buys her a new one.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay, that's amazing. That is actually kind of amazing.

[Sarah MacLean]

Isn't that great? And he buys her new one and he like. But even better, Jen, it then be. I'm spoiling this because it's so good. It's. I'm sorry. The book is a hundred years old, everybody. Like, there are no spoilers, but if you are concerned, skip forward 30 seconds. I'm so. But every time this happens, he buys her a new one. And then later in the book, it becomes revealed that she never breaks those fans that he buys her over. Like, she wouldn't. She saves them all.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I love it.

[Sarah MacLean]

And so, like, it's just a perfect, simple, like, just an elegant way of, like, showing how much these two want each other.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And how there's no way these two aren't perfect for each other. And it's like, it's great. It's called the Rake. If you are a historical fan and you've never read this one, you're gonna love it. Like, Jen, you should read it. It's gonna love it. It's like, it's a. Like a real. Right down the middle. Classic. Also, what I would say is, like, this guy is not. This is not a rough hero. Like, this is not a bad guy. He's just a. Like, he was a rake and now he's not.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And now he's not.

[Sarah MacLean]

He's ready for love.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He's a fan buying guy.

[C]

He's got a.

[Sarah MacLean]

He's got just like, boxes of fans on order. But I love. By the way, I love that. Like, I love that in historicals.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, God, me too. Oh, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Where do you even get all those fans? Who even knows? Like, what I actually want is the outtake scene. I want Suzanne Enoch to, like, write the scene where he goes into the fan store for the 43rd time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, me too. That's actually great.

[Sarah MacLean]

I do the fan, the haberdasher, or whoever it is, like, pulls out pulls.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Out the tray of fans. Maybe you should write Marry me an invisible ink on it. Amazing.

[Sarah MacLean]

We could do a whole episode on fans and historicals too. Honestly. Actually, you know what? That would be a great collection, everybody. If you haven't heard about this, we should talk about Faded maids collection department.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Lord of Scoundrels.

[Sarah MacLean]

Lord of sc. I mean, Lord of Scoundrels is the classic fan.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The classic fan look. And look at us doing it in real time.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, so, okay, if you go to faded mates.net/collections or if you go to faded mates.net and just like click. I don't know if that's the URL, everybody. I make them up and then Eric has to make them. Like, it's a whole chaotic thing that happens here. But if you go to faded mates.net right there on the main page, there's a button you can click, it says collections. And then you can head over to Human Made. I like that part. Human Made collections, like, based on. Of romance novels based on super microtropes. So, like, be in her books did mustaches. Alice Murray did plus size characters and historicals. Like there are. You know, I think there might be one already about heroes who blush. Like, it's. Listen, it's great. It's a really fun.

[Jennifer Prokop]

On secret tattoos. We're gonna do the fan one. We will.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. And then. So we could do one on fans. I. Jen and I have been. We keep going like, oh, we're gonna do one one.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But no, this will be the one.

[Sarah MacLean]

We've never thought of a microtrope ever in our life.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I. I'm sorry, I don't read.

[Sarah MacLean]

But also, to be fair, every time I think of one to do, I'm like, oh, that would be a good episode.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right? Exactly. We have a different problem.

[Sarah MacLean]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Mara Moody, author of the Reunion Recipe.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So Marlo Sage and Jude Beckett were former best friends and teen pop stars together. And at the height. I know, I love this setup. At the height of their, like, sort of prime, they broke up and their fans were shocked. But like, these two just had different views of what they want their future to be. Like, so Marlo really hungered for fortune and fame and, you know, pursued life as a music star, while Jude just like kind of went back home to his hometown and he had a broken heart, but he, his dream was to become a pastry chef. So now it's a decade later and her pop career maybe is waning, while his celebrity chef vibe is only on the come up, they run into each other at a dive karaoke bar, where they find out that maybe their feelings are way more invested than they would have thought after all of this time apart. So Marlo agrees that she like. Right. She's sort of out of the public eye after a couple of tabloid stumbles, but being with Jude again is really appealing. And so now she's trying to prove to everyone, including herself, that revisiting past hurts won't be a recipe for disaster. It'll be a recipe for love.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, as you all know, I love a chef and I love a pop star. So this is very much for me, this book. And if you too would like this second chance, small town, celebrity homecoming romance, then you can find this book right now in print or ebook. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the reunion recipe. Thanks so much to Maura Moody for sponsoring this week's episode. I want to talk about Kate Noble's compromise because we. I don't think I've ever talked about Kate Noble before, and I think she's terrific. Actually, I think we probably have, because I do think she's terrific. Compromise, though, the structure compromise is really interesting because she is not the heroine is not the one who is ruined in this book. But the ruination does impact the romance in a very specific way, which is. So Evangeline is the heroine. She's a sister named Gail. Gail. I know now that I just said that out loud. It didn't matter at all to me. And now that I've said that out loud, I'm like, gail. What an interesting name.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure.

[Sarah MacLean]

Okay, so there is. And the.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The.

[Sarah MacLean]

The plot of this book is Gail and Evangeline, their stepmother is like. So Evangeline's super bookish and Gail's not. And they are the. Their stepmother is basically like Evangeline, you will never marry. Like, no one is ever going to pay any attention to you unless they. Unless we put you both out into society together because Gail will get some attention and then you'll get like the Leva.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The Levi. You'll get the. A rising tide lifts all boats. Sarah.

[Sarah MacLean]

So off they go to the ball. And at this ball, Maximilian Max, our hero is like stumbles upon a. A Gail drunk on Rapha out on the balcony.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Is that how you say that word?

[Sarah MacLean]

I don't know. Maybe. I've never heard it said.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, me neither. Okay.

[Sarah MacLean]

Ask Mary Jane Wells.

[Jennifer Prokop]

True.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, it could be. I. What else? I don't Know what it be?

[Jennifer Prokop]

I don't know, Sarah. I don't even know what it is. So it's fine. Some kind of beverage.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's like an alcoholic punch is what I know. Okay, that I do know, but I don't know how you say it. Anyway, let's say ratafia for the purposes of this. I'm an expert. So drunk on whatever it is out on the balcony. Gail's super drunk, and Max is like, boy, you are super drunk. And then they, like, have this conversation, and Gail pukes all over his shoes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, no.

[Sarah MacLean]

And boom. Compromise. I mean, this is the other thing that I will say in all these books. Compromise is like, he breathed on her, like, oh, yeah, you know my fate. That. That Judith McNaught short story that I talk about every Christmas where, like, the com.

[Jennifer Prokop]

She looks.

[Sarah MacLean]

She's looking to be compromised. And she's like, I just wanted to dance three dances with him. Like, sure, three.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I didn't know.

[Sarah MacLean]

Compromised. You're basically pregnant. So, anyway, so Gail pukes all over his shoes. It's like a situation. And, boom, Gail and Max are engaged now. Evangeline is our hero, our heroine. You will remember. And so the situation is that prior when they. There's this great meet cute between Evangeline and Max, which involves horses. And I should have thought about it for our horse episode.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, so many horses. I'm reading. Every time I read a historical now I'm like, oh.

[Sarah MacLean]

Now I'm like, oh, there's another horse.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Another horse.

[Sarah MacLean]

So, but Max. And Max is riding in, like, Hyde park or something, and he's his, like, horse. I don't know if it's a new horse or, like, what the hell is wrong with this horse or him. But, like, he can't get this horse to, like, be in control. So he's, like, riding, and the horse is a little bit out of his control. And then Evangeline is also riding, and she's, like, crossing over the path that he's riding on, and he's like, like, oh, my horse is going to collide with her horse. And so he shouts, not, get out of the way, lady. But he shouts, horse.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Why did.

[Sarah MacLean]

He's like, why does this horse stop? I don't know what he's. What exactly. Shouts, but he basically yells at the horse, and then she looks up and she's like, oh, shit. This horse is, like, barreling down on me. And this, like, man the size of a house is also barreling down on me. And so she sort of turns to Avoid him. And reaches out and grabs. Grabs the reins of this horse because she's like, would you please stop your horse? And he's like, can't you see I'm trying? Like an inept man. I love it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Fine.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she reaches out and grabs the reins of his horse and stops his horse and promptly sends the two of them sailing over the horses heads and into the serpentine. So they don't like each other much. And now Max is engaged. Now Max is like, being forced to marry her sister Gail. And so Evangeline becomes their, like, kind of like chaperone y like, before they get married. Because God forbid they should touch again before they get married. So she's like, forced to, like, wander around with them and be their third.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Not that kind of third. And then she and Max, like, fall in love over the course of this book. And like, the complication of this is Gail is ruined. Right. Like, and Max has. Max and Evangeline are falling in love, but he's supposed to marry Gail to protect Gail's honor.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And so I really. And the other thing about this is Kate Noble started writing right around when I started writing. And she doesn't write historicals anymore, I don't think, but she's, you know, she wrote, I don't know, six or eight of them. And all of them have these really great structures. Like, Gail has a point of view in this book.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, good. That's interesting.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, so it's an interesting. Like, there's always a kind of sense in Kate's books that, like, something more is going on.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, she's the one who had. She had this great duology where, like, a duke and his servants switch places. He might not have been a duke, but, like, somebody titled and a servant switch places. And then, like, they each fall in love with the wrong person.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then they have to, like, switch back. But it's the actual switching back that is the story. Like, it's. Anyway, Kate Noble's great. She's also a television writer. So, like, you can sort of see the, like, structurally that she's always playing with the way doing something interesting.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's work. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. Fun fact for those of you who care about these things. This compromise book is Kate's debut. And it was put out. It was released in trade paperback first. Oh, in like 2010.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That is interesting.

[Sarah MacLean]

It was like a big thing when it happened.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I have a couple contemporaries because, like I said, I was really interested in thinking about what would ruination look like in a contemporary in, like, a. Like, in a similar footprint. Right? And I think what I kind of landed on was it's not about virginity that much. Right? Like. Cause, I mean, I think the thing. We haven't said the V word, but, like, right. Like, the reason all these women have been ruined is because they are no longer pure, right? Like, somebody wasn't minding the store, and now. Right. They can't enter society anymore. And I don't. I think in. I'm not really interested necessarily in that. Like, especially in a modern context. So I did find myself thinking, though, like, okay, but if what the outcome of it is that you're isolated and that you're on your own and that, like, you're sort of cut off from people, like, what would be the equivalent? And I found myself thinking about a book by Kristen Ashley called Ride Steady. And the reason I like it, it is because it really is like the heroin against the wall. Her name's Carissa. She married young and, like, married this guy she thought was, you know, like, kind of, like. It was like a real. Like, she was not, like, poor, but he was, like, the kind of rich. You know, she married Steph, essentially from. What was that movie with James Spader, that Molly Ringwald in Pretty in Pink, right? She, like. She, like, married the, like, popular rich guy everyone loved, and she was like, I'm gonna have this perfect life. Look, I. I married the. The most wonderful guy, right? And now it's a few years later. She's, like, maybe 25 or 26, right? She's, like, young. She has a baby who's 2 years old, and she has been cast out by her. By her husband. She's. He divorced her. He threw her out of the house. He is, like, very. He essentially, like, you know, game the system so he doesn't have to pay her any alimony or very little child support. So even though he is, like, rich and, like, totally has so much money, she is, like. She has nothing. She's working at a grocery store, right? As a cashier.

[Sarah MacLean]

She.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You know, that's, like, a job that is actually. She loves her job because she can, like, kind of, like, work hours where she can, like, kind of. The baby can go somewhere during the day and. Right. Like, so it, like, really works for her. She's really happy at this job, but, like, she's barely making ends meet. And the book opens with her essentially on the side of the road with her car broken down and just her and the baby, and she's like, it's Denver. And, like, it's rush hour, and people are just going by, and she's just standing there like, I have nothing. Right. And the thing about this, the reason it, like, kind of strikes the ruination chord in me is, is it's not that she has nothing. It's that she has been made to have nothing. Right. And it's clear pretty quick that the. The gambit is that the husband has a new girlfriend, and what he wants to do is essentially force her to give up the baby. He wants essentially to, like, make a new family, and he's going to take the baby and Krissa's just going to be out in the cold. And what happens is that Carson, who is, like, essentially drives up on his motorcycle. He's the only person to stay stop. And he helps her, like, put on her spare tire and realizes. And he, like, works at like, a. Like a. The motorcycle club, owns like a, you know, car repair shop or whatever. Like one that does, like, really fancy cars. Like, Right. Like, and he's like, you know, bring it by and we'll get your. Get you tires. And she's kind of like, okay. And she, like, kind of drives up and she's like, you know, know, he sent me and said, you can maybe help me with tires. But, like, she's kind of like, can we talk about, like, the price before you do it? You know, she. And he's like, you're. You're Joker's girl. Don't worry, we got you. And she's like, wait, what is happening? And. And then she has, like, a community of people who essentially, like, rally around her and help her, like, fight off this really existential threat to, like, her. Her own child.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yep.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I found it to be like, really? I think, like, one of the things I really think about is how many women we've talked about this before in modern society are. Exist in marriages where they have no financial control.

[Sarah MacLean]

Exactly.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. And I think that this. And then are, like, cast out and, you know. Yeah. Sometimes that happens to the wife when they're 45, but in this case, it happened when she was 25. And I really found myself thinking, like, that's what modern day ruination is because it is at the hands of the patriarchy and of. Of this man and his family and his ties to, like, the legal community. Right. Like, she can't even find a lawyer who will help her because they're of the family it would be going up against.

[Sarah MacLean]

Sure.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And so I found myself thinking, like, that's what modern day ruination looks like. Right. Like like, you're.

[Sarah MacLean]

You were married.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You had a. You know, but then. But if you were. If you have no financial security and you are cast out from that, then. Then what? And I thought that it was a really. I. So anyway, I really like this book. It's called Ride Steady.

[Sarah MacLean]

Perfect. When you said contemporaries, like, what does ruination look like in contemporaries? I immediately thought about Angelina M. Lopez's After Hours on Milagro street, because that's a good example. Like, and I think that this. And then I was like, oh, wait. Well, that's sort of a, like, whole genre of small town, Right. Where somebody returns home to their small town in ruination. In ruin. Like, they have failed abysmally out in the world and now are returned home because of that failure. And so, interestingly, I think this is not to suggest that I don't. I actually. I think ruination, like, sexual ruination or like, ruination for being like. Like slut shaming continues to exist. Everybody in the world and will continue to ruin. Like, quote. I'm using air quotes. Like, big ruin.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, Pete. Women especially. But it feels like in contemporary romance there is this other layer of what would send somebody into ruin. And I think what's interesting about it is when they come home, they have to reckon with that failure. But that failure is often, like, mental for them. Like, it's internal. Like, I have failed and therefore I am ruined.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Rather than a kind of outward, like a perception from the outside.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, right.

[Sarah MacLean]

If that makes. Makes sense.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, it totally does.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I think it's. I mean, I don't. I don't even necessarily have, like, other contemporary books I want to talk about. Although I did find myself thinking, I bet any money if I had, like, sort of thought of it before or five minutes ago, that this would. There would be like, any time a sub genre really deals in, like, highly patriarchal or, like, hierarchical societies. I think that, like, the threat of ruination is. Is there for women. So I bet you any money they're like, mafia romance is the traffic in this. Right. Well, there are.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, if you think about it. Okay, so mafia romance is traffic in virginity. And that's a different episode entirely.

[C]

Correct.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. But so I didn't. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Of like. Like, I think. Listen, my favorite mafia book is Millifinelli's Mafia Virginia.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Where, like, they are forced to marry and then, like, they want to see blood on the sheets.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Which is like. So I think the blood on the sheets implies.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

If she. If there is no blood on the sheets.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Then she's not. She was ruined when she went to that bed.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Listen, it's great. He won't allow that bullshit. It's terrific. Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But I mean, so I did. I found my. Myself thinking like. Or, you know, so anytime there's like a really highly. Like. And it's about gender roles, of course. Right?

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You know, anytime there's like a sub genre that like really, like I said, like traffics in that, then I think that you could find like stories of ruination and then you know, stories of survival and recovery. And I think like, that's one of the things I liked about like ride Steady is it opens with her in that situation. Right. We don't have to really read the scenario by which it came about. She just tell him later, right. Like her new man. She's like, here's what happened to me and here's how I got here. And we sort of piece it together. But I think like any. Anybody, I mean, I think my mom in her generation was really aware of friends of hers who right. Got out of marriages and had nothing. And so I think like I found myself really thinking like, well, what a ruination for a lot of women now is. Like there's no right. Like you have. You have been cast out of the safe. What you thought was the safe place of your marriage and now there's nothing.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, I don't feel ruined at all by this episode, I hope. And I actually, as I said, I'm for comp. Being compromised and pro it. Everybody get out there and get compromised.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Have a good time while you're doing it.

[Sarah MacLean]

Enjoy yourselves. I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Prokop. We are faded mates. You can find us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us online at Blue Sky, Instagram and threads so far. If you are interested in scoping out our website, you should. There's now that collections page I talked about during the episode. Also head over if you're just looking for a cool bookish community with where you can record your books and engage with other people who also love your books, the books that you love. You can head over to pagebound co, which is where we're hosting a quest. You can read. If you read some number of our deep dives, you get medals and like flare. It's a very fun community of readers. But if you want a place where you can just like flat out talk about romance and a million other things with a million other people who are also faded meats listeners. Place to go is our Patreon because the Patreon gives you access to the Magnificent Firebird. Dislike Discord, where you can talk to and find friends across the globe who love romance just as much as we do. You can do [e-mail] fatedmates or as always, head to fatedmates.net and you can find links to absolutely everything. While you're there, don't forget to click on Show Notes. You'll find a list of all the books that we talked about this episode, along with links to anything else that sort of randomly wanders through our mind. Anyway, if you get ruined this week, we hope you're having a great time doing it. Also, don't forget that if you stick around after this week's episode, you'll be able to hear a sneak peek of Piper Rains, the one I didn't see coming in Duet narration in audio thanks to Piper Rain again for sponsoring this week's episode.

[D]

Chapter 1 Emmett I leave the bathroom and jog down the stairs overhearing my brother Jude talking to dad in the kitchen. Dad decided to ambush us today, asking all of us to meet at his house. We all know it's about business because first he's making his famous burgers, which he only cooks when he's trying to get my two brothers and me to agree on something. Second, it's for sure about business because if our family meeting was about anything other than business, it'd be held up on Daisy Hill at Mom's burial plot. None of us want to be here. Ben groaned because he didn't want to be away from his soon to be bride for longer than a minute. Jude bitched because we all know what this meeting is about and he's been delighted delaying it for months. You have no choice. I promise you that when the baby comes, you'll want more time at home. Sadie will need you. A kitchen chair screeches against the vinyl floor, but Dad. I walk into the kitchen, interrupting them, but neither one bats an eye because my family doesn't keep many secrets. Or can't keep any secrets, more like it. Are we still trying to get Jude to give up the rank drains? I grab a water from the fridge and smirk at Jude just to piss him off. It's an easy task any day, but especially today. You'd think I was some up and comer trying to take over his cushy job the way he protects his responsibilities on the ranch like a growling dog anchoring his jaw in a pull toy. I don't want his position on the family ranch. Hey, did I tell you we're way past a million views on your baby girl's gender reveal video. I flip the chair around and straddle it. Sit right, Emmett, my dad scolds. What's up his ass. Act like you're ready, he adds. Ding ding ding. There's the reason he's suddenly giving me hell about how I sit in a chair. Should I go put on the suit I wear to funeral? Want to know my strengths and weaknesses? We can have a formal interview if you like. Dad inhales deeply through his nose. Ben walks in the back door like a damn stealth bomber. How long is this going to take? Jude says, jolting back in his chair. Just sit down. I'm not sure why I have to bribe you all to have a meeting regarding the ranch. Dad puts down a plate of burgers in the middle of the table. Table. He'll probably never give us the secret to what he puts in the meat, but damn, he makes the best burgers. After mom died, it was all he made for a long time, but we never grew sick of them, which says how good they are. We all reach in, hands smacking hands, hands pushing hands out of the way to score as many as we can. Thanks, dad, jude mumbles and moans over his first bite. You should quit the ranch and open a burger joint, I say. You'd have a line around the block, ben says. All of us take huge bites as if we haven't eaten in a week. Kind words from some boys who are afraid of why I called them here. Dad sits back, his burger on his plate, watching us. He does this every once in a while, watches us. I've never asked why, but I think he's impressed. He raised us on his own own for the most part. And we're not jackasses. Well, most of the time we're not. Eat, dad. Ben nudges his arm. I will. Jude finishes first, which is why he had the nickname Garbage Disposal when we were younger. He was always the first to the table, no matter the meal and the first finished. So why are we here? Other than me taking over Jude's position? I smile wide and wink at Jude. He blows out an annoyed breath, his usual reaction to my razzing. You're not taking my position. Are you sure about that? Ben joins in on the fun. The problem with having three boys is that it's always two against one. You can all off, dad. Jude pulls out his phone and looks at the time. Sadie is expecting me. There's plenty to take home. Dad glances toward the Tupperware containers on the counter. Another good thing about not having a woman. I get another burger meal for myself. I smile at the three of them and the use of your hand tonight, while Jude and I will be snug inside. Enough, dad says. Don't talk like that in front of me. I'm not your buddy at the bar, and the women in your houses are like daughters to me. I don't want to think or visualize. He shakes his head. Just no. He gives Ben his look, the one he mastered after mom died and he had to raise three hellions on his own. Ben holds up his hands. All right. The reason I called you here is because, yes, Sadie is getting closer to bringing the first Naughton grandchild into the world. You're welcome. Jude holds out his arms, pointing at himself as if there should be a big J on his chest. Best it should have happened years ago, ben mumbles, snagging one of the last two burgers. I reach to grab the last one at the same time as Jude. You get the first child. I get the last burger. I swipe it off the plate before he can. Satisfaction fills my chest. Nothing better than beating my brothers at, well, anything. Had enough? You're the reason this meeting is taking so damn long. Long. Dad eyes each of us and we sober, as we usually do under his scrutiny. Like I was saying, it's almost planting season, so that's where we start. My stomach rolls over and I almost slide off the chair and go back to the bathroom, but I gave myself a mental pep talk upstairs before coming down here. I can do this, even if I'm sure I already know what their reaction will be. I put my burger down. Actually, I was thinking. Realized what that brain is for. Huh? Ben jokes, and Jude laughs along with him. I raise my middle finger and run it up and down my nose as if I'm scratching it. So, Jude, you'll teach Emmett everything that needs to happen to get the corn planted, and then we'll move on to the cattle. Cattle ranch. You're still responsible for the horses, Emmett. I raise my hand, earning groans from both Ben and Jude. It's not kindergarten, dad says. Speak. I had this idea that maybe we could open a dude ranch. I spit out my idea before I'm interrupted. I want to make my own mark on this ranch, not be Jude's gopher my entire life. Dude ranch. Like people would come here to work. Ben laughs and knocks his elbow against Jude's arm. I know it's not your dream vacation, but we have so much to offer here. I slide my phone out of my pocket on the gender reveal video. If I hear the words gender reveal video one more time, I'm gonna lose the three burgers I just ate. Jude swipes his drink off the table and downs half the glass. I ignore him because he's always a negative Nancy. All these people commented, asking where the ranch is and if they could come visit, but none of them are saying they want to work? Ben asks. Some are. They want to come and see how things work. See me on a horse and stuff. Ben slaps his hands together. And there it is. And it wants to show off. Excuse me, Mr. Running Beck, I say, annoyed that none of them are taking me seriously. I wasn't showing off. I was playing the win. Ben rolls his eyes. Yeah, okay. My brother liked the attention, and at one point in his career he liked it so much my dad had to fly out and straighten him out anyway. That sounds like it could be a good idea, Emmett. But right now we have to get you up to speed on the ranch before we can entertain something new. Tell them where we are and they can stay at the getaway lodge. Go on a winery tour or something. Dad grabs our plates. You can go about your nights now. He stands. That's it? I ask. Ben slides out of his chair, smacks dad on the back, and grabs the doggy bag dad made up for Jillian and his stepson Clayton. Jillian probably, probably won't see any of these. Thanks. I put an extra one in there for Clayton. He's growing. Dad heads over to the sink to wash the dishes and bonus, I get sex and another burger because Sadie is having an adverse reaction to beef these days. Jude holds up his bag, trying to coax me into battle, but I'm not going to bite. Yeah, I can get sex if I want it. And the person burger. The best thing is that I don't have to wake up next to them in the morning. I pick up my bag. Can we talk about the dude ranch some more? That's the difference between us. We want them there in the morning. Ben smiles. One day you'll grow up. Ben pats me on the back and smiles at Jude as if he's inviting him to join in on the fun. I hate that they throw their relationships in my face as though I'm jealous. I'm totally not. What I am is aggravated that everyone, including my dad, disregarded my idea about the dude ranch so easily. When Jude doesn't say anything, Ben says, don't forget everyone. We'll be inviting an extra person to Sunday dinner at my house. Everyone's eyes shift to me because Ben's been telling us for days. Days that Jillian's half sister Briar is coming back to Willowbrook. What? I ask, as though they're warning me off her for no reason. Ben points at me. Hands off. Seriously, she's your sister. My dad ignores us cleaning the dishes. Not sure you understand how it works, bro. Briar is definitely not my sister. She's living at Jillian's until the house sells, and she's here to teach yoga. So keep your focus on the ranch and away from the studio. Ben eyes me as if I'm scared of him. As if from what I got at the softball games last fall, Briar doesn't much care for our little brother. Isn't that right, little Naughton? Jude clasps my shoulder. He's right. Briar has come back to Willowbrook a couple of times since then, Ben, and each time she's meaner than the last. I'm not sure what I did to piss her off. She'll like me soon enough. I wink at Ben and he growls, don't lay a finger on her. It's not only me but also Jillian you have to worry about. Jilly Bean is as scary as a goldfish. And sorry to tell you this, but unless you plan on locking Briar in a basement, the men in Willowbrook will notice her. Her. She's all grown up. It's the truth. Briar Adams is hot. But I'm only saying this to piss Ben off and make him think I'm going to flirt with and maybe sleep with her, which I would never do because who needs that kind of drama in their life? I can get laid elsewhere. Enough. Boys go. I have things to do. Dad shoes us out, soap suds dripping from his hand. We each thank dad for dinner. Guys, I'm serious about this dude ranch thing, I say as we walk down the dirt road toward our houses that line up along the lake at the moment. You're serious about it? Ben says. My hands clench at my sides. Dad's right. After we get you running more of the ranch, you can make a business plan. Jude turns to the right to head toward his house. House. He waves his goodbye. See you, Ben. I arch an eyebrow, hopeful he'll reconsider and take me seriously. He looks over his shoulder. This is where he turns off from me. You know I don't have much to do with the ranch. I'M a football coach. Emmett. But he's gone though, starting toward his house. I stop walking, rock my head back, and stare at the dark star feet filled sky. A car pulls down the road that goes past our houses, but Ben stops it before it reaches me. Inside, I can just make out the blonde who has been sneaking her way into my beat off sessions lately. So she's back in Willowbrook for a longer visit this time. Must be if she's going to be teaching yoga on the ranch. My dick twitches so I look down and shake my head. Sorry, big guy, she's off limits. Sucks that there's nothing I love better than a challenge. Which is why I walk toward the headlights when I should run away from them.

[C]

Chapter 2 Briar I know I'm on the plain Daisy Ranch, but other than that I'm lost. My car rounds a corner and my headlights shine down the small one way road that supposedly leads to Ben and Jillian's house, which they just built. However, I don't see any houses other than the white family house I passed after driving under the arches. I stop and turn on the interior light, then try to find my phone in my purse to call my half sister and ask from more specific instructions other than to turn left after the fourth tree that's missing a limb. But my phone must have fallen out and slid under the seat when I had to slam on the brakes. Earlier when a deer ran out onto the road, I'm sure I passed their drive, but I'm not sure I can just turn around without going off the road, and since it's dark, I'm not 100% sure I won't go into a ditch or something. I put the car in drive and press on the gas. Gas. But a big figure shines in the headlights with his hand held up. I slam on the brakes. Ben taps the hood of the car and walks around to the driver's side with that easy smile of his. Must be nice to have everything you ever dreamed of in your life. Farther down the road is another broad figure and my stomach clenches. Emmett Naughton, the party boy. Take life as it comes. Immature jackass. Why doesn't he just go inside his house? Hey, Briar, ben says, standing outside my window.

[D]

Turned around. We're back that way.

[C]

He points as if that vague direction is clear. Yeah. Does this drive go all the way around the lake?

[D]

No, just to Jude's. And he spooks easily with Sadie being pregnant, so better stay out of that driveway.

[C]

I don't want to Run over the grass, I say, pretending I don't see the tall figure standing in the distance, even though I can feel his eyes on me. If I gave Emmett the time of day, he'd probably stop acting as though my hatred toward him is some kind of flirtation when it's actually real and true hatred. Ben looks around at either side of us, hemming and hawing. He turns toward Emmett and mumbles something under his breath.

[D]

Yeah, go down to the next drive and turn around. Then we'll get you to the house.

[C]

His shoulders sink. I point in front of me. That way he can't be serious.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

He releases another deep sigh.

[D]

Roll up your windows and lock the doors.

[C]

His voice is strained and he doesn't crack a smile. Is the boogeyman going to come and get me? He mumbles again, but I don't catch it.

[D]

Just ignore any of his antics.

[C]

I ease off the gas and inch my car toward where Ben wants me to turn around town, which I'm guessing is Emmett's place. That's the reason he's still standing there. Emmett steps to the side of the road as I turn my car into his drive.

[D]

Get lost, Goldilocks.

[C]

That's when I remember I never rolled up the window like Ben told me to. Wrong story. My hand moves to roll up the window. He leans in, crossing his arms on the edge of my car door, his head coming past the line line of appropriate distance.

[D]

But my brothers and I are like the three bears, and only one of us would be just right for you.

[C]

He grins at me. I shift the transmission into reverse to get out of here, even if I have to run him over. Red Riding Hood was the one lost in the woods.

[D]

Oh, I like that better. I'm the big bad wolf and you're the lost innocent girl.

[C]

You're more like a yappy chihuahua. Wawa. He draws back for a moment.

[D]

Honey, I'm a Doberman.

[C]

My eyes narrow on him. I'm curious what kind of mirrors are in your house? He leans in further, closing in on me.

[D]

Why are you interested in watching me? You?

[C]

For the one whole minute you'd last. I press my finger on the window button.

[D]

One night with me and you'd be ruined for life, Emmett.

[C]

Ben's voice rings out in the night air. There. Emmett laughs, having no choice but to step back or get pinched by the window. Once it's closed, I start backing up to turn around, but my passenger car door opens. I slam on the brakes. Emmett climbs in, placing a bag on the floor by his feet. What are you doing being a gentleman.

[D]

And showing you the way?

[C]

His tone is as if he said, duh. What do you think I'm doing? Doing a gentleman. You? I put the car in drive to get this over with because I've met men like Emmett and rarely do they listen to anything but what their tiny little brains tell them to do.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

He shrugs and points ahead of him.

[D]

Continue this way.

[C]

No. He rolls down the window and when we get to Ben, I stop. Emmett hangs out of the window, both arms stretched toward the ground.

[D]

I'll show her the way. See you there. Bullshit.

[C]

Ben moves for the handle of my two door car and Emmett slaps it away, locking the car manually.

[D]

Emmett, I'm tired and I don't want to deal with your today.

[C]

I've never heard Ben with so much anger or annoyance in his tone. Then again, I only briefly knew him when I was younger and he dated Jillian. They reunited after he returned to Willowbrook when he retired as a pro football player.

[D]

Was See you at the house. I'll take good care of my sister, Emmett.

[C]

Ben's tone is like a warning, but even I know Emmett is going to get off on him being mad.

[D]

Ben.

[C]

He mimics his brother's tone, rolling up his window.

[D]

Go ahead, sweetheart.

[C]

Don't call me that. Emmett turns toward me and I purposely drive slowly so Ben can keep up.

[D]

Everyone likes me. Everyone but you.

[C]

That's what your ego tells you. You. His laughter rings out in my small car, grating on my nerves.

[D]

Turn right here.

[C]

He points and I follow his directions.

[D]

You think I have a big ego?

[C]

You know you have a big ego. I head down a winding road and the house comes into view. It's big and beautiful and what Jillian's always deserved.

[D]

A big ego to match.

[C]

A big I slam on the brakes and Emmett catapults forward, hitting his head on the dashboard. Jillian stands in the middle of the road, her arms crossed. Emmett touches his forehead and pulls his fingers away, examining them as if he expects to find blood. My sister's eyes are focused solely on Emmett. Then a fist knocks on the window. Ben stands outside. Emmett opens the car door and steps out.

[D]

Damn it, jelly bean.

[C]

She walks around to Emmett, it disregarding him and sliding into the passenger seat before shutting the door and locking it. Hey, jillian says kindly, as though she didn't just resemble a crazy serial killer from the movies about to chop us into pieces. Hi. Go ahead and keep driving. I'll direct you on where to park. She gestures with her hand. I do as she says because she's always had that disciplinary mom Persona. After my mom took off, I knew it. Jillian would let me get away with with and what she was really firm on when she was younger, before she had Clayton. I could manipulate her emotions about not having my mother figure in my life and she'd loosen the reins on me a little. But those days are long gone. Park over there. I park my car. I didn't really want to come here first when I rolled into town, but Jillian said she wanted to see me and give me the key to her house house in town that she's offered to let me stay in until it sells. After that, I'm not sure where I'll go. We both slide out of the car. Go home, Emmett, ben says as they walk toward the car.

[D]

You're playing two against one, calling Jilly Bean on me.

[C]

He's still holding his head. What a baby. Emmett, I don't have food for you, jillian says, hooking her arm through mine and leading me toward the stairs.

[D]

I just ate. Which reminds me, I have to get my food out of your car. Good, do that. Then keep on walking back to your house. We have a guest. I wanted to welcome her back to Willowbrook.

[C]

You're not the Willowbrook welcome crew, jillian says over her shoulder, climbing the stairs with me in tow. Uncle Emmett Clayton comes out of the house and tosses a football to the person closest to his mental aid.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Clay.

[D]

Give me some warning.

[C]

Thanks kid, I say and dislodge from Jillian to accost Clayton with a hug.

[D]

Briar.

[C]

He whines as I splash kisses all over his face like I used to when he was 2 years old.

[D]

Come on.

[C]

Oh, sorry. I heard you had a girlfriend. Is she the only one who can kiss you now? He squirms out of my hold. By the time I'm done, Jillian and Ben are inside arguing about Emmett being here, Ben saying he can't control his brother and Jillian saying he better try. So I'm caught off guard when Emmett overthrows the ball and Clayton has to jog away to get it.

[D]

Tell me why I'm jealous of a 15 year old boy right now, he.

[C]

Whispers in my ear, causing a rush of shivers to race up my spine. Damn him because you both only think about the same thing every second of every day.

[D]

Come over to my house and I'll show you exactly what I'm thinking.

[C]

I'm done babysitting five year olds, I say, opening the screen door so it hits him square in the nose. Whoops. Sorry about that. He groans and grabs his nose.

[D]

You Adams women are dangerous.

[C]

You best remember that. I walk into Jillian's house hoping like hell Emmett takes the hint and goes home. If only my mind would shut off the image of him taking me to his house and fucking me while I watch in the mirror. I have way too much going on in my life to entertain any kind of attraction to Emmett. Naught.