07.34: The Third Act Break-Up (Complimentary)

Summary

Fated Mates - Episode 07.34: The Third Act Break-Up (Complimentary) Summary

Host Introduction and Opening Conversation (00:00 - 07:40)

In this episode, co-hosts Sarah MacLean and Jennifer Prokop kick off with a delightful conversation about self-care and skincare routines. Sarah shares her recent shopping trip to Sephora, expressing pride in treating herself while embracing a more mature side. She humorously discusses battling a "tiny thief" in her home that steals her makeup:

Sarah MacLean [00:00]: "I went to Sephora and I bought myself, like, new makeup for my new grown-up skin."

Jennifer adds her own experiences with skincare products, touching on the importance of moisturizing and sunscreen. The conversation takes a heartfelt turn as Sarah shares a personal story about her brother's battle with melanoma, emphasizing the critical need for skin protection:

Sarah MacLean [03:31]: "I have fallen into the rabbit hole of dermatology... wear sunscreen... I care about your skin health."

Book Tour Announcements and Live Events (07:40 - 10:56)

Transitioning from skincare, Sarah enthusiastically announces her upcoming "These Summer Storms" book tour. She details the tour dates, including stops in major cities such as St. Louis, Chicago, Winston Salem, Cambridge, Decatur, and Franklin. Each event promises engaging conversations with fellow authors like Kate Claiborne, Veronica Roth, and Mary Kay Andrews. Jennifer expresses her excitement and encourages listeners to join the events:

Jennifer Prokop [09:46]: "It's so fun. It's happening, it's happening, it's happening."

Deep Dive into the Third Act Break-Up (21:52 - 85:19)

The core of the episode centers on the concept of the "third act breakup" in romance novels. Sarah and Jennifer explore its definition, importance, and various manifestations within the genre. They emphasize that a third act breakup serves as a critical test for characters, pushing them to choose between personal safety and happiness through their relationship.

Defining the Third Act Breakup

Sarah explains that in romance storytelling, the third act breakup is not merely a literal breakup but often involves a pivotal moment where characters face significant challenges that test their relationship's viability:

Sarah MacLean [25:00]: "It's about sacrifice. Like, something important is being sacrificed. It's about a test."

Jennifer categorizes the third act breakup into four types:

1. Go Home Again: Characters break up and return to their separate lives.
2. Love is Threatened: One character sacrifices the relationship to protect the other.
3. Who Am I? Breakup: A character questions their identity within the relationship.
4. You All the Way Up Breakup: A character abruptly ends the relationship without reconciliation.

Examples and Analysis

The hosts delve into specific examples from various romance novels to illustrate effective third act breakups:

1. "Dreaming of You" by Lisa Kleypas:

   • Sarah discusses Derek Craven’s ultimate test where he must choose between his wealth and his love for Sarah, highlighting how his choice defines his character growth.

   Sarah MacLean [35:34]: "He would be like, there's no question. I don't want any of that."

2. "Beautiful Stranger" by Kylie Scott:

   • Jennifer recounts the emotional breakup scene between Max and Sarah, where Sarah realizes the depth of her feelings and decides to leave despite their love.

   Jennifer Prokop [46:12]: "It's one of the most emotional, like, third act breakups ever."

3. "Painted Scars" by Neva Altage:

   • The discussion covers Nina's forced marriage to Roman, a mafia leader, and her eventual departure upon discovering his true nature, emphasizing the internal conflict and identity struggle.

   Jennifer Prokop [77:26]: "What does it mean for me to then be a part of that world?"

4. "How To End A Love Story" by Yulian Kuang:

   • Sarah and Jennifer explore how the protagonist grapples with past trauma, leading to a breakup that is both a reflection of personal growth and unresolved pain.

   Sarah MacLean [75:20]: "It's a good example of how third person point of view works in a unique way."

The Importance of Rooting the Breakup in Character

Both hosts agree that a successful third act breakup must be deeply rooted in character development and the story's earlier conflicts. It should feel inevitable yet impactful, ensuring that the relationship's resolution is both satisfying and true to the characters' journeys.

Jennifer Prokop [24:22]: "I think that it works best when it's rooted in character."

Challenges in Executing the Third Act Break-Up

They acknowledge the difficulty authors face in crafting believable and emotionally resonant third act breakups. Balancing external pressures with internal character growth requires finesse to avoid clichés and ensure the breakup serves the story's emotional arc.

Sarah MacLean [83:55]: "It's a sign of a good writer to be able to flip the whole thing on its head and make it a first act breakup."

Conclusion and Final Insights (85:19 - End)

Sarah and Jennifer wrap up the discussion by reiterating the significance of the third act breakup in shaping romantic narratives. They encourage writers to embrace this structural element to enhance character development and emotional depth in their stories. The hosts also remind listeners about their live events and invite them to engage further through their Patreon and online platforms.

Jennifer Prokop [85:08]: "The third act breakup is about saying, relationships have stakes. And that's what I like about them."

Sarah MacLean [85:17]: "I choose you. Because at the beginning of a romance, it's faded... at the end, they get to choose each other."

Key Takeaways:

• The third act breakup is a pivotal storytelling device in romance novels, testing characters and their relationships.
• Effective breakups are character-driven and rooted in the story's established conflicts.
• Understanding and categorizing different types of third act breakups can aid both readers and writers in appreciating and crafting compelling romantic narratives.

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah MacLean [03:31]: "Welcome to Faded Mates, everyone. I'm Sarah MacLaine... I care about your skin health."
• Jennifer Prokop [24:22]: "I think that it works best when it's rooted in character."
• Sarah MacLean [35:34]: "He would be like, there's no question. I don't want any of that."
• Jennifer Prokop [46:12]: "It's one of the most emotional, like, third act breakups ever."

For more insights and discussions on romance novels, join Sarah and Jennifer at their upcoming live events or connect with them through their Patreon and social media channels.

Transcript

[Sarah MacLean]

Do you know what I did today? What did you do today? I did this week, and I was really proud of myself because it felt simultaneously very luxurious and also extraordinarily grown up. I went to Sephora and I bought myself, like, new makeup for my new grown up skin.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I do enjoy going to Sephora and asking, like, what's your favorite moisturizer?

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, I bought Just pitch me primer that has, like, hydro something in it. And I bought, like, tinted concealer because Instagram told me that I shouldn't be using tinted. No tinted moisture. Wait, what did I buy? Hang on. I bought tinted moisturizer because Instagram told me that I shouldn't be using, like, foundation anymore because that's, like, so 2023. And then I bought, like, oh, I bought these, like, very cool, like, stick eyeshadow stick things. And I just. And then new makeup brushes. Because here's the thing that you have never had to deal with. Having a tiny thief in your house.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, sure.

[Sarah MacLean]

Who messes with your stuff and then where does it go? Who can say into the wall, because I can't find.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You need, like, a decoy makeup box.

[Sarah MacLean]

This little creature has her own decoy makeup.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, but she wants your stuff because you get the good stuff and she gets, like, you know, the shit.

[Sarah MacLean]

She gets whatever. My sister bought her for Christmas. 11 years old, absolutely stealing all my stuff. Anyway, I bought new brushes, so I'm feeling just, like, really lovely.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I like that for you. That's nice.

[Sarah MacLean]

I am not wearing makeup right now. Someday I will put it on and then you will go, goodness, Sarah, what a grownup face.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I don't know how to take care of myself. I don't really know how to do my hair or put on makeup.

[Sarah MacLean]

I hate to say it to you, but the rumors are true and you should definitely be moisturizing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And my mother is like, are you moisturizing last? Listen, we are in Sephora together. This was like, when I was home. It must have been last fall. So I'm like, looking at this, like, Shiseido eye cream, and my mom's like, I'll get it for you. And I was like, mom, it's $60. And she looked at me and she held my hand and she said, let me just tell you something. If you don't wear the $60 eye cream now, wait till you have to see what you get when you're my age.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, wait till the dermatologist gets involved.

[Jennifer Prokop]

She was like, let me get this for you. And I was like, I surrender to that. Logic.

[Sarah MacLean]

When my, when I was growing up, my mother was an Oil of Olay user. And because here's the truth. Elizabeth Warren has been using Pond's Cold Cream for her whole life. And she looks like a witch. Like, she looks like she has like drunk the blood of some creature in order to have such perfect skin. And I truly believe that that is true. I think if you are out there and you are very young, you can use Oil of Olay for your whole life.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Because you started young. So get out there. This is my ad for Oil of Olay Teen.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oot is probably would have some really cute name. Yeah, no, it's true. Moisturize, everybody. Wear sunscreen.

[Sarah MacLean]

You'll think this later. Yeah, wear sunscreen. Listen, everybody, here's where I'm gonna bring it down a notch. My brother died of melanoma a year and a half ago. And like, wear sunscreen and go to the doctor and. Welcome to Faded Mates, everyone. I'm Sarah MacLaine. I read romance novels and I write them. And I care care about your skin health.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I am Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And I also care about your skin health. And based on the amount of money I spend, I also care about my child's skin health. Kids these days really do care about their skin. I think it's a good idea.

[Sarah MacLean]

Kids these days are spoiled rotten. Is also true.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, that's true. I did get really upset one day. I was listening to like the middle schoolers talk about like serums. And I was like, you're 12. You don't need a serum. I need a serum. None of you. And they just looked at me like, you don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, I do. You don't need that.

[Sarah MacLean]

You need Oil of Olay Teen.

[Jennifer Prokop]

There are no serums in the Oil of Olay Teen line. We all know that. Listen, if some dermatologist even bothers to like, be like, they do need a serum. You're a scammer. You are selling snake oil serum.

[Sarah MacLean]

We're losing dermatologist listeners right now.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I don't think.

[Sarah MacLean]

No, I honestly think my dermatologist would laugh if I said, does my 11 year old need a serum? She needs sunscreen.

[Jennifer Prokop]

She needs sunscreen. Exactly. Okay, fine.

[Sarah MacLean]

Anyway, now we're done. Eric's like, okay, okay, team, listen, we're allowed.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Everyone talks about Sephora.

[Sarah MacLean]

We're not talking about no you. Eric's never been in a Sephora. He doesn't know Sephora is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I bet it Wouldn't even let him in. I bet. If you don't believe in Sephora, like.

[Sarah MacLean]

Gate slam those ladies in black.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Just like, we could tell you, you are going to be the bad vibes. You're bringing bad vibes into the store. You have to believe in Sephora to come into Sephora.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, what is great about Sephora is it really is also like the great equalizer. Like, every woman in the world just gets into Sephora and is like, oh, yeah, this is the dream.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I do also like Ulta. Do you have Ulta where you are?

[Sarah MacLean]

I don't. I mean, I'm sure there probably is one in New York City, but I don't know where it is. Usually they're in like a strip mall somewhere.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Ulta is like a. Is like a slightly more democratic, I think. I think they. What they. What I like about Ulta is they have like the fancy stuff, but then they also have like the full Neutrogena line. Yeah, right. Like, so it's like, I kind of like that. You can be like, all right, I need this $80 dermalogical serum, which I do need everybody. And then I'm also going to buy Neutrogena moisturizer or whatever. So I do kind of like, I like the vibes of an Ulta too.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. I have fallen into the rabbit hole of dermatology. Tick Tock. But not like, not like makeup. Tick Tock. It's not. I'm not on TikTok Instagram, I guess, is what I've fallen into. But Tick Tock has become like the Kleenex of social media video, I feel like. But what I have fallen into is like dermatologists watching reaction videos too. Like skincare.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, I bet that's wild.

[Sarah MacLean]

And actually it's pretty fun to watch because often dermatologists are like, I don't know what is happening.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, absolutely not things.

[Sarah MacLean]

You definitely don't need a 22 step skincare regime.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, you know what? I probably would enjoy that too. You can send me one of those next time. See a good one. I will, I will.

[Sarah MacLean]

There's a guy I really like who's like, I'm your local dermatologist and I'm telling you this is nonsense.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You don't need this. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

The takeaway is, Shen, you need sunscreen.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And also a vitamin C serum. He really likes that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, That's a tough one for me. I feel like they smell funny. Not my favorite.

[Sarah MacLean]

Put them on at night and then you don't have to worry about It. And it doesn't smell funny all day. Actually, night is probably the worst time. But not put it on during the morning.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I don't know. I guess. Anyway, anyway, it's fine. I have serums. I like everybody. It's fine.

[Sarah MacLean]

Anyway, the point is. But here's what's true about sunscreen, about. About skincare. It's really about self care. And let's talk about other ways that you can self care. Like for example. Everyone, why don't you come to Faded mates live in St. Louis?

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's very exciting. Okay, Sarah, you have a big announcement to make about your book tour.

[Sarah MacLean]

I do. This week we announced the these Summer storms book tour. I will be in eight cities in the United States and then also in some cities around the globe later in the summer, which is very posh and exciting. Feels very fancy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

These summer stops.

[Sarah MacLean]

Okay, these summer stops, this summer tour. Of course, I'm using all of these frames to announce things, but I'm super excited. But let's get down to brass tacks. Yeah, I'm going to talk about the whole tour, but on July 8th, which is my release day, Tuesday, July 8th, Jen and I will be in the great city of St. Louis, Missouri.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

With the great bookstore novel Neighbor and our very favorite now, too many times to count guest Kate Claiborne, who's flying to the Midwest just to hang with us on my release day. And we're going to have Fademates Live Midwest.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I know. I'm so excited.

[Sarah MacLean]

Is driving in you crazy people.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I was like, well, I'm just going to drive to St. Louis, you know, from Chicago. It's just like five hours. It's just not even a big deal. And Sarah was like, excuse me, what? And I was like, yeah. I mean, and then the entire conversation on the Discord is people being like, it's only six hours. I'm just going to drive. And Sarah being like, what's happening?

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, and it's like, I'm driving from Tennessee. I'm driving from Florida. Like, what? Everyone, people who already know about this are people who are on our Discord because if you join the Patreon, the Fated Mates Patreon, you get early access to Fade of Mates tickets. But there are still Fade of Mates tickets around and available. And you can join us in St. Louis with Kate. Fademates Live is super fun.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's so fun.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's like the biggest, best romance party out there. Novel Neighbor, by the way, is a legendary store for romance. I've never been there, but already Stephanie and the Team at Novel neighbor are, like, so excited about having fade of mates. They've been begging for a fade of mates for a long time. A fade of mates live. And here we are finally getting to the Midwest. Jen is road tripping. And then Jen and I are road tripping with Kate.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Back to Chicago the next day.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Because I have a tour date in Chicago that evening.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You do?

[Sarah MacLean]

Jen's a little. Jen's feeling feelings about it. But let's wait. Let's talk about the tour itself.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Talk about the tour itself, please. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

So, everybody, the book. Oh. Faded meets Live. The ticket price is $45. It comes with a copy of these Summer Storms. I'm super excited to be coming to St. Louis, where I've never been. And we can't wait to see our Midwest listeners, as many of you as will come.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So everybody, I know we're not giving tons of, like, actual details, but if you go to show notes, you'll be able to click on all the things.

[Sarah MacLean]

If you want more information about Faded Mates live, you can go to faded mates.net live. So anyway, but if you can't come to St. Louis and hang out with us on the 8th, that's okay. You can come to other places and hang out with me or come to Chicago and hang out with me and Jen again. Um, My tour starts July 7th in New York. It at Barnes and Noble Union Square with Tia Williams as my conversation partner. We love Tia. We've had her on the podcast. On July 8, it's of course, Faded Maids Live in St. Louis. On July 9, I'll be at Wilson Abbey in Chicago, Illinois, in conversation with Veronica Roth.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And that's in support of the Women and Children First Bookstore, which is a great Chicago, like a local legend of a bookstore here in Chicago.

[Sarah MacLean]

And Jen will be there, and we'll have Fademaid stickers, and you'll be able to see her, and it'll be great.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'm probably gonna drag Mr. Reed romance and a little romance to this event. What? They'll both be in town. They're here. I'm gonna make them experience, like, Mia's famous.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, yay. I love that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. So that'll be really fun, everybody. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then on Thursday, July 10, I'll be in Winston Salem, North Carolina, at Bookmarks Bookshop, which is, I mean, just incredible. In conversation with Renee Adzia, who is a known YA writer, but also has her first adult contemporary kind of romance, dysfunctional family romance, out in June. That's called Park Avenue. And if you love A dysfunctional family. You should check that one out. On the 15th, I'll be in Cambridge, Massachusetts, with Adriana Herrera at Lovestruck Books. We'll be at the first parish church. So we'll be, you know, we might be smitten or smoten or smited, whatever that is. Whatever that word is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

C I in every tense. Present, past, and future could happen.

[Sarah MacLean]

On the 16th of July, I'll be in Decatur, Georgia, at Eagle Eye Bookshop with the Mary Kay Andrews, who is, frankly, who I want to be when I grow up these days.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Mary Kay, I love you.

[Sarah MacLean]

I know. I told the group chat about this, and they were all like, this is the big. I mean, we are starstruck by this one.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This lady is ballerina. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then my final stop, at least to date, is July 17th. I'll be in Franklin, Indiana, at the Wild Geese Bookshop with Rebecca Bauman from the Lily Library.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I mean, I might be like, you know, moseying down there for that one too.

[Sarah MacLean]

Just for funsies show up.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, exactly. They'll be like, is Jen here again? What the. I'm like, you're in the Midwest.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, if you come to Wild Geese, come up and hang out with Rebecca and me on stage. That'd be so fun. Anyway, you all, that is the tour for these summer storms. Every single one of these stops. The ticket price is the cost of the book, so you'll be able to leave with a copy of these Summer Storms. I will happily sign it for you. We can take pictures. I will have faded mate stickers. I will have other cool stuff. And I'm so excited. This is actually my first book tour ever. So I've done, obviously, lots of events, but I've never done, you know, eight cities in 12 days or however long this is. So I'm very excited and I hope. But I'm also very nervous that nobody will come see me. So I hope you'll come see me. You can find all this information by going to fadedmace.net live and it'll link directly to my tour page. And of course, we'll put everything in show notes, but. And if you go to sarah mclean.net which is my website, everything's there and now. Thank you so much for letting me talk about myself for a little bit of time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, everyone's so excited. I think it's gonna be awesome. Yay. It's happening, it's happening, it's happening. And you know what? We all need great things to look forward to this summer, so really really fun. Okay, one last thing to kind of remind everybody to look at a really fun new initiative that Eric is spearheading and is, like, just probably my new favorite thing on our website. So he has thought of this great idea we're calling the collections department only, you know, it's not like your student loan company calling for your money. It is us telling you about great romances to read.

[Sarah MacLean]

I thought it was more like library collections.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, cute. I thought it was more like, you.

[Sarah MacLean]

Know, take your money. I mean, which we do. We kind of do.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's true. But, like, for romance books, it seems nice.

[Sarah MacLean]

We want you to give your money to romances. To romance novels.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The thing that's really fun, I think, is that these are, like, things that maybe we haven't had, like, full episodes on, or they're just like, somebody's, you know, like, the microtrope they love. So, like, one of my favorites is Andy J. Christopher Made a Kidnapping is for Lovers. Because I. Listen, who doesn't love a kidnapping? And so. And, you know, this is also one of these things I liked about Andy's is, like, it's a really good mix of, like, you know, historical, contemporary, mafia, Right. Like Zoe Draven. It's got, like, the whole nine yards. And so I think that this is also really fun, is to just have, like, a different, like, way to slice. Like, the romance pie is, like, one way I think about it, right? Like, you have something you love, and then here is a fun collection. I think the other cool thing about it is I am often a person who. I'm like. If I look at a list like this, and I'm like, wait, I've read two of these books and really love them. Then it just gives me a way to be like, okay, I probably will like the rest of these, too. They have something in common, the books I already love. So.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yep. And also the other cool thing about it that I really like is I'll be like, I don't know what I feel like reading, but I feel like reading something good. Yeah. Something somebody I trust like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Says is good. So what we're trying to do is really keep these, collect. Make these collections uniquely small in the sense of their microtropes or, you know, they all. They have something really. If something. If it's something like, for example, food and romance. Like, my. My friend Shane did one. That's like, food in historicals.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, so I think what you'll be able to do is scroll through, you know, a real human being and not an Algorithm has created this list and it's books that they really love. And so you're gonna have a great time. Head over to faded mates.net/collections or just go to faded mates.net and it's. There's a link to the collections page right on the front page and enjoy. And all the links actually links go to bookshop.org unless there is no bookshop.org link for an ebook, at which point we send you to the other place.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The other place? Yes. Well, you know what? Sometimes you gotta shop the other place.

[Sarah MacLean]

I have a book coming out in July, so thanks to the other place, I guess too.

[Jennifer Prokop]

All right, so check out collections. The collections department. It's really fun. And Eric is. I think it feels like maybe like one a week goes up or every, you know, couple days depending. And I know he's got a ton that are sort of.

[Sarah MacLean]

There's a backlog.

[Jennifer Prokop]

A backlog. But I think that's great because then it's like, you know, you don't want to get overwhelmed. Keep coming back, keep.

[Sarah MacLean]

It gives you a reason to keep coming around. Hanging out with us.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Exactly.

[Sarah MacLean]

At least once a week I'll think to myself, all those people, they like to listen to us for some reason.

[Jennifer Prokop]

One of my co workers told the kids, they were like, she's famous. Me. Aw, right? And then they like, she sent the kids in to be like, why are you famous? And I was like, I'm going to kill Ashley.

[Sarah MacLean]

Don't go listening to that. Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I was like, that's not for you. But then I was like, listen, you guys listen to me talk about books all day and you have to. And then I assign you homework. I was like, you don't want to listen to talking about books on your free time. And they're like, yeah, that is actually true. So I don't worry, I deterred them.

[Sarah MacLean]

I was at a. I was at Romancing the Craft this weekend, which was this incredible one day kind of workshop filled craft session for romance novelists that's run by Adriana Herrera. And she put it together and it was magnificent. It was a Rutgers University. And, and Adriana and I did our Writing the Romance session. And then there were some great other sessions. You know, somebody came up to. Somebody came up to me. Afterward, a couple of people were there who were Fata Mates listeners. And then one woman came up to me like in the bathroom and she was like, I just need you to know that you're always like, when I hear you talk, it's the strangest experience. Because you have been with me, like, in my head for years, in, like, private space. And I was like, it is a weird.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So it's weird.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, you must feel this too. Sometimes when you speak, like, at a conference or whatever, like you say, you start talking and there's sort of a, like, moment where the whole room is like, oh, wait, what's.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Wait, Faded Mates is on. Oh, no, they're here for real. It is. It is. Yeah, for sure. Weird.

[Sarah MacLean]

But you got to be careful. There's no gossiping allowed when you're us now. Because if somebody overhears you saying something, they know exactly who said it anyway. I just want to also say if you are writing romance in any form, even, you know, if you've been writing romance or you're thinking about writing romance or you're in the middle of a romance, follow Romancing the Craft on Instagram. We'll put links in, show notes, pay attention to what they're up to. Because I think the goal is to have at least one of these a year. Adriana is doing incredible work pulling together, like, these really fascinating workshops filled with people who are. Who have years worth of experience and such incredible skill. And so if you have the opportunity to go to one of these, I highly, highly recommend.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I was at the one, the stimulant one. I think anytime the focus is on writing, it is really nice. The Chicago North Romance Writers chapter does a every other year writing. And it's not romancing the craft. Right. But it is about writing. And I just think it's so nice for authors to be with authors to talk about writing as a, you know, as opposed to, like, reader event spaces which just have a different focus. It's not that that's bad or wrong.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's true. And, you know, but as part of it, Adriana and I talked about the third act breakup, which is our topic for the day, though it had been intended long before we did this, this event this weekend, because it's a hot button issue for some reason.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It is.

[Sarah MacLean]

And so we are going to about the third act breakup, how it works, why it's important, and maybe also, like, why people seem to misunderstand it or how people seem to misunderstand it. I don't know if we're going to do it in that order, but those are three things I want to really get to. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Anna Todd, author of the Last Sunrise.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Anna Todd is back, baby. So talk about a phenom. And so in this we have 22 year old Arya Rye Pera, and her mom's job is temporarily relocating them to Mallorca. And she is really hoping that this is gonna be the summer that's gonna just like, kind of start her life. Raya suffered from her through chronic health issues and her mother is super overprotective, and she is like the definition of sheltered. And so she just has been, like, waiting and is hoping that this, you know, a summer in Spain is the answer. So in her first act of rebellion. Yeah, right. In her first act of rebellion, she heads off to the beach alone and meets a very handsome, charming Spaniard named Julian. And he makes Rai feel even, you know, kind of more naive and, and inexperienced than she normally does. Right. Like just that sort of, you know, he's a worldly European man, but she's super attracted to him and he, I think, realizes that there's something to this girl. So as the summer continues, Julian pulls Rye out of her shell and into these adventures she's always craved. But as the summer comes to a close and her return to America is, like, staring her in the face, Rai has to decide if she's brave enough to finally follow her heart and live for herself and follow, you know, this man or kind of be the good girl who's following the rules.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, boy. Well, if you are, as we are, very excited about a new Anna Todd book, you can get this one right now in print, ebook, or audiobook. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title and be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Anna Todd for sponsoring this week's episode.

[Jennifer Prokop]

A lot of people don't want it, and so if you're one of those people, you're like, I don't like it. I don't think we're trying to, like, convince you. I don't, you know, not your jam, whatever. But I do think that if you don't like it, that doesn't mean no book should have it.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And if you do like it, it doesn't mean that all books should have it. Right. I think a lot of people think about the third act breakup as a plotting problem. And I actually think that it works best when it's rooted in character. And I think that this is why maybe there are, like, these. It feels like sort of people just, like, miss each other when they have these conversations.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yes. I think people misunderstand what we mean. I think there are two ways of looking at the third act breakup. And I think writers and like, people who really are Thinking about the text. Think and understand, like the structure of a romance novel and like what a romance is and how a romance has to exist in order for it to be a satisfactory romance. Think about the words third act breakup as shorthand. And then there is the reader perception of what third act breakup means. Literally. Right, Right. So I think readers, I think many people who are not like in this world having these conversations all the time, hear the term third act breakup and think quite literally. Oh, that means the characters in the third act at the climactic moment of the book break up. In some cases, that is actually what happens.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I mean, look, I get why, like, right, like you're like. But that's actually what it's called. But like the world series isn't the world series either.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, but that's. But it makes sense, right? Like that. Like if you don't think. You guys. I get it. A lot of people don't listen to fated mates and don't think about romance. Like, they just like the books and that's fine. But then, then I think like when, when you're in the, in the business, like all of us, us and our, you know, however many tens of thousands, closest friends, this. If we are ourselves thinking about third act breakup, we're thinking about something very different. Like sometimes it's a breakup, sometimes it's, you know, a. Sometimes, like there's just like a crisis moment. Sometimes there's a moment of danger where one character is in particular danger. Sometimes. Often it's about sacrifice. Like something important is being sacrificed. Often. And always, always, always, always. Underline always. It's about a test. When we talk about romance novels of fated mates. For seven seasons we've been talking about western story structure, right? So like caveat. Caveat. Western story structure. But like, I think you would be very hard pressed to find a successful romance novel that fully lacks what we refer to in shorthand as a third act breakup. Because I think the test.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, the test. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Or else there's no arc. Like, there's, there's no end.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Characters are on a journey in a romance. They have to be. All the people start off in one place where they are like, I'm. I am the way I am and I don't have a romantic relationship in my life and not love. Right. Like they might have family and friends or co workers and colleagues, but I don't have some romantic relationship in my life. And either they want it or they don't. But like, that's like the opening status of the people and then right by the end, they have, they are in a romantic relationship. And the thing about that, for people who are in romantic relationships of any kind, whether it's now or in the past or whatever, know that that takes an incredible amount of like you as a person have to decide, is it worth it? Is the, is the relationship I'm going to form with this person or these people worth what I will have to give up or lose as an individual moving forward? Because every relationship in your life is going to require different things of you, right? And so for me, I think that's why, like there's the test is just the people really. For me, I often say, like, if you don't want to call the third act breakup, fine, but it's the point at which people decide to stay together, right? Like, I could at this point have walked away, right? It could have been over and done and I could have just gone back to me at the beginning. But yeah, instead I'm gonna like go through it to like this other place.

[Sarah MacLean]

This is gonna be a very craft heavy episode because like when I think about writing, right, I think about where I'm starting the book, right? And when I think about starting a book, I think about. We think about what's called the inciting incident. And so the inciting incident of a book is like just the moment the story starts, right? Like this is the right place for you to open, literally open the book and see the characters. This is where we begin. And often there's something very active that happens in that moment. There's something like, that motivates a character to action, right? Like the goal is to see a character. There is no, there is no interest in reading a book or at least a romance novel, in my opinion, about a book. A character who's in stasis, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's like, right, Something happens.

[Sarah MacLean]

So as you sort of move through the world of the book, you're watching character move from comfort to something else entirely, right? And this, you know, love relationships, they are uncomfortable sometimes. They are often uncomfortable. And certainly learning who you are in relationship is a, is discomfort. So Michael Hague, who is a story, a script doctor in Hollywood and has like a number of. He has this great audiobook that I will, we will link in show notes called the Heroes Two Journeys. And he talks literally about like, he grounds everything in like cinema, like how you write a movie, how, how like the beats of a film. And one of the things that he says when he talks about just how you write a character is given the op, given the choice between safety and happiness. Humans will almost always choose safety.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right. And our work in romance, because we are a genre of, of that like traffics and joy and hope and happy happily ever after, is to get characters to a place where they are willing to sacrifice safety for happiness.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right? Correct. Every good romance is that journey.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. And so safety is. For the last 30 years, I have been comfortable however I was. But now, after these 350 pages, I am in love. I have a new person or people in my life. They are driving me to be my best self, in the words of Jane Ann Krentz. And now I have to choose that self, that best self with them, over.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The safety of who I was. Yeah. And what I knew. So I think like the thing that's then like really important to say is the third act breakup right now again, I think that's true. I think that's true of every romance novel. I think there's again, like, I think western story structure is. I, I, you know, I don't, I like it.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, that's the structure we're comfortable with and that we operate in.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And there are lots of books I've read that aren't that. And that's fine too. And I mean like not just in romance, this is like across literature, but.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like when we talk about genre fiction, when we talk about mysteries, thrillers, sci fi, romance, like these are, this is a story structure that is known and has beats.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Right. Because I think the thing about genre romance is it's delivering something so like, just like the entire rest of this conversation, like, it's not that there aren't outliers or it's not that there aren't people who are doing differently. Of course there are. Like, but we're just talking about like this structure and how it works and why it works and why we like it. So here's the one other thing I want to say about the inciting incident because I do think this is really important when you're talking about this also kind of like where it ends when I teach this to kids. And like all of you learn this at school, the plot mountain, all that bullshit. Right. One of the things I say about the inciting incident is that it introduces a set of conflicts to the character. Right. So the thing that happens isn't just like a meet cute. Right. It has to introduce a struggle for the characters into the system of the story. And the thing about the third act breakup and the thing about like moving past is like in order to move past it, in order to like move on. Whatever it is, whatever conflict that's introduced at the inciting incident has to be like, handled and managed. Right. Like a character has to essentially overcome that. One of the things I think is a really common like, complaint about the third act breakup is like it comes out of nowhere. Well, that's just like a poorly written third act breakup. Right? Because a good third act breakup is rooted in the inciting incident. In some ways it's rooted in like the characters themselves and kind of what got them into this mess of falling in love with each other. I mean, I think the biggest complaint, especially when it's like an actual breakup, is that it's like perfunctory.

[Sarah MacLean]

Here's where they break up. Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And you know what? Fair. But like I said, just because sometimes it's poorly written and doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. And I think that's why we want to talk about like good ones today or like what they're doing or like why it works or why it's effective. And so like, let's not throw out the third act breakup. Baby with the bathwater.

[Sarah MacLean]

So when I talk about this in workshops, when I talk because I give a fairly like, well known workshop on conflict and I always talk about the third act breakup because it is this test when. If you think about it as a test, right. The test is if you think about building a character. I agree with Jen, by the way. That. Or I agree with you, Jen. Who am I talking to? I don't know. Everyone. I agree with Jen. Jen is right. Is the important thing that third act breakup is actually rooted in character. So for example, we'll use our very favorite, sweet baby, Derek Craven. Everyone has read that, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

No pressure.

[Sarah MacLean]

Everybody we're talking about Lisa Klepas is dreaming of you. Obviously. We, we, we love this book so much we invented a holiday related to its hero. It's fine. But so if we think about Craven. Right? And spoiler alert, if you haven't read that book and you don't want to hear about the third act breakup in that book, you should. I don't know.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, I honestly, this whole. How do you talk about third act? Breaks up spoiling books, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

I guess until we spoil the next.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Book we talk about.

[Sarah MacLean]

Exactly. So if you think about the ending, right, the third act breakup, There are a couple of breakups in that book, right? There's the breakup where Sarah beats the hell out of Dodge and goes back to Greenwood Corners and Derek loses his whole mind because he feels a feeling. Right? But what's interesting about that is you could call that a breakup, but that's not a third act breakup. Right. That's just a moment, like ten moment of tension in the course of the second act. Right. Then. Then Sarah comes back to London. There's like a whole rigmarole, very exciting, all sorts of shit happens. And then the casino burns down.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It sure does.

[Sarah MacLean]

And Derek believes that Sarah was in the casino.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. That she is dead.

[Sarah MacLean]

So he believes she is dead. And this is our third act break up. Up. Right. Because here is the moment where Derek Craven has lost the one thing he was unwilling to sacrifice at the beginning of the book. Right? His wealth, his power, his. See the like, mana.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Physical manifestation of his desires.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

This man who has pulled himself out of the drainpipe and made himself a king has lost his castle, his throne, everything. But the test is here. Because none of that shit matters when in face of he's also lost Sarah. If a genie materialized in the rubble of Craven's. Of Craven's casino and said, I will trade you Sarah's life for all of this, he would be like, there's no question. I don't want any of that. This whole. This palace of wealth and power and privilege and everything I thought I wanted is no longer even remotely interesting to me. If the other option is a future in fucking Greenwood Corners with Sarah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

So there it is. It's not a breakup.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

But it is the ultimate test. I mean, listen, Dreaming of you is Derek Craven's book. And it is the ultimate test of Derek's whole identity. And so there it is, a perfect example of a third act breakup being necessary, being on the page. Right. Like we're talking about a man who from page one, cares about nothing but his own wealth and power.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Choosing another person, which is also the most uncomfortable thing Derek Craven could possibly do.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, God, yes. No, I mean, he's made a life of not doing that. Right, right. Being only tenuously tied to, like, people around him. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

So that's like. If we're talking about that as like the extreme. Like, I think of the third act breakup as a continuum. Because I'm like further conservative on the third act breakup than you are. Meaning, like I'm. I'm more rigid than you are. I'm like. I think every book has one.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I think every book should have one.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, I think every book is attempting to have one. How about that?

[Jennifer Prokop]

This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Danny Francis, author of Silver Elite.

[Sarah MacLean]

This is the first book in Danny Francis's new dystopian romance series, where psychic gifts are basically a death sentence. So the heroine of this book, Wren Darlington, has spent her entire life in hiding because she is a modified person, meaning she has these intense psychic abilities. She is one of the most powerful mods ever to exist on this planet, the continent. And the truth is that being modified means that you are incredibly powerful to, in her case, the rebel uprising. But you are also incredibly powerful if you are captured and used for evil by the bad guys, the people in charge. Wren makes one careless mistake. It puts her in big danger. She gets caught by the baddies and she convinces them using her abilities to put her into their most elite training program. Thinking this gives her an opportunity to really like get at them from the inside. Problem is that she has this very sexy, very ruthless and infuriatingly irresistible commanding officer. General I'm.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'm online, Sarah.

[Sarah MacLean]

I know, me too.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Did you say ruthless?

[Sarah MacLean]

I did. You could say it too though, because I'm for it. His name is Cross Redden and he doesn't miss anything when it comes to her. And he immediately is suspicious of whatever Ren is up to. So the big question is how is she going to save the world, how is she going to keep herself safe and how is she going to resist just this super hot guy who is, you know, also her boss, it seems like. So I'm for it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I believe in Ren and love.

[Sarah MacLean]

I hope it all goes wrong and then very right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So if you have the same feeling, please check out Silver Elite. It is available in print, ebook or audio. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Danny Francis for sponsoring this week's episode. I what I found myself doing was thinking about the different like kinds of third act breakup. I have like titles for them that are sort of also about like what the character is going through.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right. Hit me with it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So I have four categories and I think there's probably more, but these were like the ones that like immediately came to mind as I was trying to think of like my favorite books with this. Right. So one is that the person has to go home again, right. So they break up and then go home. Two is like their love is threatened and so they self sacrifice, meaning the.

[Sarah MacLean]

The person themselves is threatened, she dies or I do.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No. Okay, yes, that's another good one. But I mean like someone comes along and says you need to break up with them or you are going to make their life worse. And the person's like, well, I don't want, I don't want that. I love them. So I'm going to do this. I'm going to break up with.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right, I see. Here's a check for $100,000 or whatever it is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, right. And I'm interested in those because I, I think they can be really good. Then there's the who am I Breakup. Like, Right. Like I am with this person. But now something has happened that made me realize I maybe am, am I still the person I was at the beginning? I need to figure that out. And then listen, I'm not going to lie. I love the you all the way up breakup where the person's like, like you.

[Sarah MacLean]

I'm out.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'm out. So those are my four types. I think there's probably more. Maybe that's.

[Sarah MacLean]

I think that's fair. I think there's also. And I think this falls on the like the lighter end of the spectrum of, of breakups. But there's also like this, this falls into the person has to leave bucket. But there's like the logistics of it. Right? Yeah, the kind of. And I don't just mean like, well you live in one city and I live in the other and what are we gonna do? But I also, but I mean like I'm thinking about Christina, Lauren, something wilder. Right. Which I think I remember Christina once saying to me, like something wilder isn't. Doesn't have a third act breakup. And like. And I think it does though because I think the main characters, the protagonists of that book have to sort out how they are going to be together after this adventure. Like I think it is such a, like it is such a sort of hand waving light touch, third breakup that that book because we've been through. Here's the other thing you can deliver a light touch breakup or third act, you know, crisis point. If over the course of the book so much has happened that like they've been tested again and again and again. In that book, Lily and Leo have. It's a second chance. Right. Lily and Leo have really been through the course of not just the book but like prior to the book, Leo and Lily were together. Leo worked on the ranch with Lily and her father. And then as they sort of move through, then Leo has to. Leo leaves and goes off and like makes a life for himself on the other side of the country. He comes back with like a group of kind of blow hard men who are there for like a bachelor party or like I don't know, I don't remember quite what the situation was that brought all these men to the ranch. But now Lily does these tours of the like rock, the Red rock canyons in Utah. And so she's about to take them out on a like week long tour of this. You know, it's like a nature trail where they camp out under the stars and they, you know, do whatever guided by Lily and her assistant. And everything goes haywire in the first like night of the tour. And Amand dies and then. But they're also like hunting treasure. There's a dead body, like there's all sorts of stuff that happens. It's like a real classic road trip setup, right. And at the whole way through, Lily and Leo are sort of falling back and they're reconciling, they're reconciling what happened before. They're reimagining each other. They're sort of, they're rebuilding their vision of what a life could be together and they're really falling for each other as the constant tests arrive from the wilderness, from the other people on the tour, from you know, all different areas and all sides really. And then when they get back to the ranch and they're back, they're done, the journey is finished, everything's sorted. You know, Christine and Lauren are so good at like tying everything up in like this beautiful bow. The final question is, well, how are we going now that we have sorted it all right? We've been through the fire. We've lived quite happily in the fire swamp.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, right, right.

[Sarah MacLean]

How do we survive on the other side? And the answer is so easy for them because these are two decent people who love each other and like, and so it just, it like seamlessly resolves but like the test was there the whole time on page and then at the end there is a moment of like, I choose you, I choose us and everything else. I choose the discomfort of being in love with you, right. Over the comfort of being unhappy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

They knew what it was like to be apart, right? Yeah. Like this is rooted in like what happened to them in the past, right. Like they didn't choose each other and now they're, they're going to. I had Beautiful Stranger, which is my like low key favorite, right? As in the you fucked all the way up category. And at the end, and this one is about Max and Sarah and what happens is they meet and essentially like engage on in this like sort of odyssey of like, kind of like really understanding, in this case Sarah's own like sexuality, right. Which it turns out she has a real interest in exhibitionism. Right? Like, they fuck all over town in really kind of precarious situations. But it's always, like. There's always, like, kind of, like, safe. Like it's dangerous, but also, like, he's scouting out locations where, like, they can do this, but it's kind of safe. And it's really interesting because at the end of the book, and I kind of was like, re. I went back and reread it because I remember the restoration, but I couldn't really remember why they broke up. Up. They broke up is she allows him to take photographs of her, and the next day his bags are stolen at the airport. And it includes, like, the NSD card with her photographs. And not her photographs don't exactly get into the. Into, like. Into, like, a public space, but the tabloids get a hold of it, of his phone, and it's like, all these pictures of women. And she is really devastated. Like, just like, I thought I was different. I mean, she just feels this tremendous amount of mistrust. Like, she can't even talk to him about it. And he's, of course, leaving, like, frantic messages, but she essentially, like, wander, like, for romance reasons. She's, like, in his apartment or something, and she goes back in and sees that he has all these, like, photographs of her. She realizes, like, something about seeing the way he sees her allows her at this moment to realize there's a story there and she needs to hear it. But my hope here is a woman who. The exhibitionism is presented as a sexual thing for most of the book, but it's being seen at the end, literally, that allows her. That's the whole point. The whole point for her. And so it's one of these books where it really deftly turned, like, turns his. Like, you know, he's a man who's been with a lot of women. He's taking these photographs of her. He maybe didn't protect, like, the, you know, this SD card or whatever. Like, all this stuff that she's really upset about. It's in the tabloid. She didn't want to be seen that way. Right. And it's really fascinating the way this book, like, really, like, I think interrogates and plays with this idea of, like, this question about, like, what does it mean to be seen in lots of different ways? And so for me, when I read that, I was like, of course this is gonna be the ending to the book where the inciting incident is. I think I like having sex in public is. I think I Like being seen in private. Right. And so that to me it's like. But you can't get there without her, like sort of being afraid of kind of what she's discovered about herself.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yes. I mean, and this is the whole. I mean, this is the joy of it, right? Yeah. That fear of discovery.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, you know, we joke all the time. Like we love a hero who's never felt a feeling, but in that, in that scenario that's a heroine. Right. Who's like really terrified of who she might have to admit to being in murder.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And. And I mean, for me it feels like often. And this is, I think historical really shines here. Like this is these kind of high octane third act breakups are the, are the realm of historical. And I think about, like, I mean, I. I honestly can't think of a single one of my books where there isn't a real like high, high level, like everything's on the line. They've been like. And it's usually external too, right? Because. And people ask all the time about my books. And I think Lisa's early books are like this too. I think Caribbean Heiress in Paris is like this, where the climactic scene is actually putting people in danger. And it's usually like one character is heavily in danger, her. And for whatever reason, like, sometimes there's a bad guy, sometimes it's just like bad luck. Like, you know, whatever the thing is. But the reason why. So there's this external moment where it feels like all is lost. Two character, like the character, they. They can't be together right now because she's been blown up or he's. Yeah, she's been blown up in one of my cases. Right. Or she, she's like tied up in a warehouse that's on fire in Caribbean areas. Right. And so like, if you have these kinds of, you know, these endings, these kind of external endings, what it does is it just is a throat punch to the other character to realize that like, again, Derek Craven style, here is the sacrifice you are going to be forced to make. Like you can have revenge or, you know, the business or the, the power or the money or the whatever, or you can have this person. And I think there is something really breathless and beautiful about how historical can do this largely in a way that like, becomes less believable in a lot of ways in contemporary because there's Vaseline on the lens of historicals where that throw punch happens and it activates that final breathless feeling that like, holy shit, I'm so unreasonably in love with them.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, well, and I think that's why I think a lot like mafia romance or whatever, like, tends to, like, work for me because you do have, like, right. The threat of violence. Like literal. Yeah, like literal. Like, so I think so a book I reread this week that has this. And the flavor varietal is the self sacrifice is hidden truths by. And it's part of the Perfectly Imperfect series by Neva Altage. And in this one, it's Sergei and Angelina. And Angelina essentially has been her. Her, you know, it's a mafia romance, right? Her father was a cartel leader in Mexico who. Who has been killed. And the killer is like, I'm going to force you to marry me. And at the beginning of the book, her grandmother essentially, like, sneaks her out onto, like, a drug. Into a drug shipment essentially to like, go across the border. And the. What happens is Sergei, who works for like, the Russian mafia, like, his boss is like, pissed and is going to blow up this transport. They've heard that there's like a person on there. So he's like, well, I'll get her out of there. And then he is like, immediately, as these characters are just like, you know, kind of like this one, I. I feel this, you know, connection with her. I cannot let her go. But the thing about Sergey that's really interesting is he was trained as an assassin by, like, a evil government agency, right? And so he is actually really struggles with, like, disassociating when, like, things really freak him out. He is. Is so steeped in violence that he can't sometimes, like, understand when violence is appropriate. And so he brings her home and he's like, I'm going to find out the truth and I'm going to take care of her. And at the end, and he is like this protector. Like, it's my job to protect her, right? I found her, I saved her from whatever was happening. It's going to be my job to protect her. And at the end, what happens is, like, they're in a mall, you know, they've fallen in love. And, you know, they are. She can, like, reach him. She doesn't think he's crazy, literally. And she's approached in, like, a mall bathroom by a woman who's like, I've got a phone call for you. And it's her, the evil guy who killed her dad, who's basically like, I have men outside. They're going to kill Sergei, right? Like, he's in the hallway waiting for her. If you. You don't agree to come back to me. And so she essentially is so terrified for Sergey that she agrees to go back. Right. And the thing is, is like, again, the reason this is so perfect is like, one is like, we saw someone sacrifice to save her at the beginning. So of course it's gonna. It has to end with her sacrifice and save someone else. That's just the way it goes. Right. And I think, furthermore, no one has ever sacrificed for Sergei. He has been trained as a killer, and that is all he's good for. And so to have someone instead say, like, no, I'm going to save you. Right. I have the power to, like, save your life when he. That's. No, that's his job. Right. And it's terrific. And I think it's like one of those ones where, like, sure, I have read the ones where, like, someone just, like, rolls up and is like, you know, if you don't do this, his hockey career is ruined or whatever. But in this case, right, like, the way this wraps up, we knew all along she was in danger and she wouldn't tell Sergei about it. And we knew all along that, like, the sacrifices that were made to get her out of there were never going to be enough to keep her out of there. Right. So it felt full circle. It did not feel unearned. Right. Right. And then, of course, he just comes and kills everybody and it's happily ever after.

[Sarah MacLean]

This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Cara Dion, author of Claim to Fame.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So Broadway actress Hannah Matthews knows what it's like to be in the spotlight, but not that kind of spotlight, which is the spotlights of the paparazzi. On her fire escape, she is all of a sudden the star of a big tabloid scandal, and she doesn't want anything to do with it. So she decides to decamp as one does to a qu. Quaint New England town where she can have some peace and quiet and coincidentally, some time with her no strings hookup buddy, Ethan Hart. Now, Ethan loves his privacy and his hometown and to the point where, like, everyone's just like, oh, yeah, Ethan, the vineyard owner. And they do not know that he also moonlights as one of Romance's spiciest audiobook narrators. I love it.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, that's the best.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The other big secret he has is that he is falling in love with Hannah, but she is so determined to keep him in the ends with benefits zone. So once they become roommates, it's like all bets are off. Every. All of a sudden they're flirting and, like, Dating and but the are the paparazzi gonna find them and kind of thrust them into the limelight just when they are trying to figure out or like finally be able to figure out what it means to be a couple even though one of them is famous famous and one is secret famous.

[Sarah MacLean]

If you love a curvy heroine small town romance with a little bit of celebrity normie fl, you are going to love this very spicy claim to fame. Book four in the Astro Bay series are they're all interconnected standalones. Is available for pre order right now on Amazon. You can get it in print or e. Or on May 27th you can download it with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. Thanks to Cara Dion for sponsoring this week's episode. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to pre order the book. Thanks to Cara Dion on for sponsoring this week's episode. I think they're the trickier ones are so there's like the obvious right there. There's like the super light touch and I, I want to talk about some others that I think are like good examples of the super light touch. There's the like wildly heavy touch. Right. The like. And you know, where it's just so obvious that like it's happening that you know, everything's gone to and now it really is a test. And, and listen, I'm, I like those too. Yeah, those are my favorites. But these sort of like middle ones where you know, everybody acts like a grownup. Like that's I think a really difficult needle to thread for an author, you know, one of the ones. And again like not to keep coming back to Lisa but like she's just so good. But you know, you all so many people think Winterbourne is like the best of her books. And, and like the truth is that that breakup lasts how many minutes?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Three?

[Sarah MacLean]

Five.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Five. Right, Exactly.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean not five. Less than five minutes. Right. Like, and like it's literally. But what's interesting about that and I think this is a real cornerstone of a number of those last like kind of middle way third act breakups is like self doubt propels the breakup, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Final moment where like Helen sees that she could have it but knows that she in this case like knows she has a secret that she hasn't told Rhys. Not that Rhys will ever in a million years care about this secret because he loves her so very much. But like that, like that doubt, that sort of heavy feeling often propelled by a piece of information that the character has not shared. Another book that does this beautifully is Beverly Jenkins's Forbidden.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Where, like, the hero of that book has a secret that he is terrified of revealing, and then when he does reveal it, the whole town is like, yeah, we know. Right. And it's such a. Like, again, this kind of, like, very real sense of like, of Beverly Jenkins having built a community of characters in the book who we believe would respond the way that they do and, like, really, like, launching the breakup and then whisking the air out of the sale of it. You know, like, deft in. In a move that is so deft, it just, like, only proves that Bev is, like, the best of us. Right. And I think, you know, that is true. So there it is again. The test is not necessarily on page in either of those books. Right. Because Rhys, we know as readers, like, this is no test at all. Like, Rhys is obsessed with her and won't care a wit about the secret. And in Forbidden, the test is internal. It's like just the hero messing around in his own head.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And I mean, I think the thing that's brilliant about Forbidden, and we've talked about forbidden a lot, is he is like. Like, he has been passing, but he has also, like, gone out of his way to help the black community in his town. He's essentially like, I, from this position, can do a lot of things I wouldn't. Right. And then when he stops passing, he is essentially saying, like, I have to be true to who I am as a person, and this is gonna allow me to be, like, to help. I can still do all those things, but I get to be me, too. I didn't have to make a sacrifice of my own identity to do. And I think that's the part that's, like. It's so. That book is so brilliant. Yeah. It's so good. Right? So I think that exact. That's exactly right is right. It's in character, rooted in character.

[Sarah MacLean]

Another book that people often point to as saying, like, oh, it doesn't have a third act breakup is Courtney Milan's the Duke who didn't, which Courtney herself has sort of said, like, she really wanted to write a book where there was no misunderstanding. There was nothing at the end that would, like, cause a break in the fabric of the relationship. It was just like, a constant move toward them being together. However, in that book, also, the hero is grappling with the breakup in his head. Quote, breakup. Right. Like, he's grappling with his own choices, like, the things he has and has not told people the way he has and has not lived in this town in his own head. And so we witness. This is a good example of how third person point of view works in a. In a unique way. We witness his own. We witness the. The tension in his feel in. In, like, his emotions through the lens of a third person narrator. So we can simultaneously see the danger of it and also the reality that, like, he is overthinking. Right. It's a way again, to pull the wind quickly out of the sail.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Yeah. I think the. One of my favorite breakups, like that is an actual breakup is. And again, I know these are books like we've talked about before, but I think there's a reason these are my favorites, Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's just easier when you're talking about books that you know so well, that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I know so well and that I reread and read millions of times. And often, to me, I was. This is like one of the ways I approach, like, what books should I talk about was like, what are the books I. Where I reread the ending over and over again because it really hits. And one of them for me is lead by Kylie Scott. And in lead we have Lena and Jimmy. And Jimmy is the lead singer of the band. And Lena starts off as his sobriety companion. And the way that she gets hired is basically like, she's just like, quite a shitty job. And like, she happens to be in the, you know, their manager's office. And one of the other guys is like, you know, why don't you do this? And the thing that is really amazing about this book is it really, in some ways is like the classic, like, kind of what would cause the breakup, right? So she tells Jimmy that she loves him and it just freaks him the fuck out. And the reason for this, again, is because. And he is. He's told this to her like his own mother was essentially, like, emotionally abusive and told him over and over again, like, no one's ever gonna love you. And so when Lena tells him that, right?

[Sarah MacLean]

It's.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's like she. And it's this great moment, like they're in a bathroom. She's just giving him a blowjob, right? And she tells him. And she can't. It. She's like, almost like the weight's just. I just like, I. It came out of my mouth. I couldn't stop it. It was bigger than I was. Right. And it also has, like, one of my favorite. So then, like, you know, they come back, they have kind of sex. She really Gets that this is over. Like, she knows. And she goes into the kitchen the next morning and like the whole fucking band is there and he's just being a total dick to her. And she looks him dead in the eye and she's like, fire me. Me, right? This was always how it was going to end. And it's like. And I'm not a person who really remembers like sentences and lines, but I remember, like, if I. I probably could have this tattooed on me. Kylie, I love you, right? And Lena thinks we'd gone into free fall. When I told him I loved him, it was time to hit the ground. Like, she knows what's coming. And she is like, I know what's going to happen. And I know, like, I. I cannot. I cannot like, suffer through him demoting me back to just being Lena, the, you know, the sobriety companion. She's like, this is always how it was gonna end. Fire me. And he does. And it's like this heartbreaking moment because she then looks at him and she's like, you can't. You can't go back to using. You promised me. Like, she's like, right. It is to me like one of the most emotional, like third act breakups ever.

[Sarah MacLean]

And she loves him so much.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And she loves him so much. And she knows, she just knows that this is how it's gonna go. And then she goes back home and the whole entire book she has been avoiding going home because her sister is getting married to her ex boyfriend. Her sister stole her boyfriend and now they're getting married. And it's this great scene where she's like, with her dad and you know, and it's like, it really is. It just really hits in every way.

[Sarah MacLean]

And a good example of like how, how again in first person deployed beautifully. That works because you're so deep with her.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, she. And that's it. She's really like, it's over. I'm going back to my shitty little town. But this line about like it was time to hit the ground. I think about all the time, right? Because I think that that is the. A good third act breakup makes you feel sick to your stomach. Like, you know, these two dummies belong together and yet. And I. And listen, I. Here's my thing. Like, I was kind of like play fighting with somebody on threads this week. Like Crying in Romance, right? Fine. But I was like, if. Where are the emotions coming from? They're coming from like moments where like the loss, the. I am convinced it's over. It is a devastating thing when you are in love with someone and fuck, I love it. Like, put it in my veins. I've reread the scene where they fight in the kitchen. From like, the bathroom to like the end when he comes to her sister's wedding and like, sings amazing. And then, like, I have read that part of Lead, I don't know, 50 times. This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Rachel Griffiths, author of of the Trouble with Anna.

[Sarah MacLean]

So we talked about this one a couple of times, especially in our horse episode, but here we go. Anna did not intend to ride in a high stakes horse race or start up a betting ring. She definitely did not mean to find herself in a bunch of darkened corners with Lord Julian Ramsey, both fighting and kissing. But here's the details. She loves her grandfather's estate and she loves it because it is where she grew to love horses. Problem is, Grandpa's dead and his will stipulates that if Anna wants to inherit this place that she believes is hers by right and also by passion, she is going to have to marry and she is going to have to marry Lord Julian Ramsay. So these two are gonna have to fight it out and do other things it out in order to win the day, win the horse race, and win each other's hearts.

[Jennifer Prokop]

If you would like to read the Trouble With Anna, it is available in print, ebook and in audio. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Rachel Griffin for sponsoring this week's episode.

[Sarah MacLean]

I would be interested in, in spending time with some of these authors who, like, who say, like, I don't love a third act breakup. Like, I don't, I don't want to do it. And like, just listening to how they, what their process is. Because for me, my process almost, like I can't write until I can see the third act breakup, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

The test. Until you can see the test.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, and I have to be able to see the test. And like, that's what I always refer to when I talk about my books as like the set piece end. Like, what is the thing that happens that sets just chaos into motion and like, dials all the feelings up? But like, I appreciate that. Like, that's just because that's the kind of like when you cut your teeth on Judith McNaught, that's just how it goes, right? You know, and I think, I mean, like, I think you, you talked about what was your fourth bucket, you fudged all the way, you fucked all the way up.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And also she. All the way off.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And like, that's like kiss for me on the continuum. The continuum that I always, like, present as part of my PowerPoints kiss. An angel is on the far right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Which is so, like, in the wind with a gorilla.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Goodbye.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. She doesn't even. Yeah. Like, it's gone, baby. Gone. I love that.

[Sarah MacLean]

Has to find her. As you were talking, I had a thought which was, is it possible? I mean, I think we've done an episode on Second Chance. Right? So one of the questions that Adriana talks about all the time, when she talks about how she writes, she often, like, when she builds a character, she asks herself, like, what is the lie that a character tells themselves? Right. So in which case, like, that lie, whatever that lie is, has to ultimately be tested. Did. And like, we have to see them fear that that lie is true. Right. Like, that everything they thought was real is, like, now that have the. They've had the taste of what it is like to have that not be true, now there is the threat that it actually is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

So, like, my. The lie that I tell myself is that I cannot be loved because I had a terrible relationship with my father. And then this is, you know, every romance hero of a certain decade. And then, you know, and then you meet a woman, you meet the heroine. She's bright and beautiful and like birds alight on her shoulder. And she teaches you that you maybe can be loved despite your terrible father. And then boom, at the end, there's this, like, fear that maybe you can't. You're not worthy of it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, you really can't be. And so, you know, that's a sort of very, very clear arc of that. But so. But one of the things that I was thinking about related to Second Chance romance is you need. The Second chance is in many cases, like, it begins with the third act breakup, and then you do a whole nother story, and then the third act breakup at the end of a Second Chance romance is that sort of fear that we are.

[Jennifer Prokop]

We've all.

[Sarah MacLean]

We've gone back to the beginning again. So Second Chance is a really interesting structure. And I say this only because it seems like Second Chance is very big right now. And I wonder if part of the reason why we're hearing so much just discourse on whether or not we, quote, need a quote Third act breakup. Right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Is because in Second Chance, you've already been through the trauma, but you still need the test. I. I would argue at the end yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Because otherwise, what has changed? Changed.

[Sarah MacLean]

Otherwise, what are you doing?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Otherwise you're the same people you were before. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

A book that does this really well is Yulian Kuang's How To End A Love Story is not Second Chance because the characters weren't together at the very beginning, like, in the past, but they knew each other in the past. And there's this sort of like, very big traumatic event that begins the book where her sister commits suicide at the very beginning of the book in high school. And he. She commits suicide by stepping in front of a car. And the hero was driving the car, car. So, like, oh, my God, like, brutal, right? Then, you know, years later, they meet again in Hollywood in the writer's room. She's a. She's a famous author, he's, you know, the second in command in this writer's room. And they fall in love with the course of the book. And at the end of this book, there's this, like, really interesting moment where this isn't actually about. Here's a good example of, like, a heroine who has to really be tested, right? Like, the hero, this hero is all in from the jump, but she ends up being the one who, like, just can't quite look him dead in the eye because she hasn't reckoned with her own relationship to the past, right? And so she. Despite the fact that they love each other, they care. Like, it's obvious that these two are. Are right for each other. You know, when they get there to that final test, it is an actual breakup. And it makes sense on page because she still hasn't dealt with her shit. And so she, like, walks away. And he knows he can't follow her, same as Kylie. Although in Kylie's world, it's more, I would say, like, on the spectrum, Kylie lands further right than Yulene does. Because I think, like, what. What Yuline is doing is a, like, different kind of like, having to reckon with your shame.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I mean, I think that's like the thing that is, like the third act breakup is like, the moment where, like I said, you just see them deciding they have to figure it out and make it work, right? And I. And I. I really feel like. I don't know, like, I just love it when it's perfectly done, you know? And I think that, like, sometimes I understand, like, even I can be like, I. You know, I see this isn't perfect or it couldn't be better, but I see, like, what it's trying to do, right? And I think, like, a really interesting. Another, like, okay, so the one of the ones I'm most interested in and I think is also probably the hardest to pull off is the, like, who am I? Breakup. Right? So one of the people essentially is like, do I want to be the person I am in this relationship?

[Sarah MacLean]

Give me an example.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So I'm going to talk about another one of these. I've been rereading these. Neva Ultra Altage. I don't want to say her name. I'm sorry, everybody. I've been rereading reading these. These books, okay? So it's the first one's called Painted Scars. And in this book, it's about Nina and Roman. And Nina essentially is married off to, like, he's the head of the Russian mafia in Chicago.

[Sarah MacLean]

Fine.

[Jennifer Prokop]

At one point, they go uphill to his house. I was like, that. This woman's never been in Chicago. It's fine. I'm. Okay. So Nina, her father stole money from the mob, and essentially she's married off to Roman to, like, make this, you know, make the money thing even. And she's an artist, and she's kind of like, look, you're gonna do what you're gonna do, and this is fine. But it's also very clear from the beginning that she has been traumatized by a past boyfriend. I mean, she's like, you can't ever lay on top of me. You can't ever put your hands anywhere near my neck. And Roman's like, who did this to you? And she's like, I'm never gonna tell you. I'm never going to tell you. Right? And promise me, if you find out, I don't ever want you to do anything about it. Like, I have figured this out. I've gone to therapy. Like, I'm fine. And at the end of the book, he threw, like, a coincidence. Like, she sees this guy, and Roman immediately clocks. This is the guy that hurt you. And he tortures and kills him, and Nina leaves him. Nina leaves Roman. And at the first time I read it, I was kind of like. Like, she knew what Roman was doing down to other dudes in the basement, right? Like, why is this different? And. And it's also great because it has one of my favorite microtropes ever, which is, like, after she leaves, he just acts like a little like. Like, just like. Like, freaks out the. Like. Right. Lothair cutting off his. Cutting out his heart and sending to Ellie in a box. She sends Roman divorce papers, and he sends her back an envelope full of ashes. This kind of. Right. I love that.

[Sarah MacLean]

Perfect.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Perfect. Nah, Essentially, whether or not we believe this or not, it's like he made a promise to me in our relationship that if I said, don't do something, that. Right. He wouldn't do it, and he did it. So who am I in this relationship? I know that I am married to a Mafia guy. I know that violence and. And murder as a part of his world. But does it have to be a part of my world? What does it mean for me to then be a part of that world? I'm not sure it's perfectly executed.

[Sarah MacLean]

That is a very difficult way to do it because who am I in this relationship at 90% of the way through the book is a really hard.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And it's something that had been sort of ongoing. Right. She's like, I'm not a Mafia person. I got pulled into this world. It was supposed to be for a shorter. Right. Like, there's all these ways in which I think she felt like she had escape routes.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's a little like McCreeve.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Which is a book in Kressley Cole's Immortals After Dark, and a really incendiary one. Like, people either love McCreeve or hate it. And I think one of the reasons why is because it's asking that question, like, if I am not the person you thought I was when we. When, like, we, like, got together or like, if I. If you. If you believed one thing was true about us or about me, and then you find out that that is not the thing that is true. And the thing that is true is, like, core to my identity.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, how do we go on? And I think in McCreeve. Right. So that's. That's structured in a way where, you know, McCreev is like his arch villain. He basically, like, is he. He has a problem with succubi. Right. They, like. He. He just can't even fathom even looking at them. He falls in love with the heroine only to discover that she is, in fact, a succubi, which she didn't even know she was. So when she becomes one around him and he's like, she's my fated mate, but also a succubi, and I hate her forever. The, like, tension of the breakup there is really brutal because she can't change who she is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, the. She is the spotted leopard, which it sounds like he is the spotted leopard. Right. In this book. The part of the reason why I think this book, McGreeve is such a struggle for. For Cresley readers is it feels like you're dancing on a nice point, like with the betrayal piece there, like, you have to love her all you can have all of her or none of her.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right? I think that's exactly right. And I think that that's what, like, Nina is really coming to terms with. Especially because, again, like, right. Like the inciting incident creates the third act breakup. She essentially was forced to marry him. So when she leaves him and then, like, she leaves him because then it's like you. We all realize, like, that marriage was never really on solid ground because she didn't really have a choice coming into it. Right. And so then when she walks away, what we, you know, we understand. It's a shorthand for if she's gonna come back, it's with her eyes wide open, right? Fully realizing what he's capable of and, you know, and then what, frankly, what she's capable of. Right. Like what this really means.

[Sarah MacLean]

What is that book, Natasha?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, the Unwanted Wife.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's the same.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, it doesn't happen at the end.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No. It, again, it's second chance. It happens at the beginning. And I would argue, run, Posey, run. Essentially it's like first act breakup, right? Like, and then I'm gonna come back. If I. If I come back, it's gonna be. It's gonna have to be different. And what's that gonna mean? Right? But my point here is, like, it's a test, right? I mean, we're here talking about, like, it's far more. The far more classic setup is to have this happen in the back end of the book.

[Sarah MacLean]

Listen, it is the sign of, like, a good writer to be able to flip the whole thing on his. On its head and make it a first act breakup, right? Oh, yeah, right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And, like, keep you invested. Wait, why should I care about before you even care about these people? Right. One of the things I really understand is that romance is a really big tent and there's so many different things it gives to people. Right. And I think for me, like, in my, in my personal life, in my marriage, my long relationship with Mr. Reid's romance, I can name you the points in my relationship with where it, like, could have gone another way.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yep, absolutely.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. And I think that's why I love these moments so much, because I have in. You know, and I don't. I'm not typically a person who brings like, my personal life into my romance reading. Like, but it means something to me because I feel like I have had those moments as a person and I've had them with my friends. And I've had them with family members where you're like, am I committed to this person or not? And I think that that is why, you know, romance is really powerful if there are no stakes, right? The third act breakup is about saying, like, relationships have stakes. And that's what I like about them.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, I think the third act breakup is also about the moment where you say where you, you double down, right? You're like, I choose you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I choose you. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Because at the beginning of a romance, it's faded, right? Like at the beginning of the romance that I write, I choose them, right? Like I say, here are two people, we're gonna, we're gonna hang out with them for 400 pages. Let's see what happens. But at the end of the book, they get to choose each other. I think we've done the job, everybody. Jen and I are third act breakup evangelists. We, if you hadn't noticed, but tell us about the books that you have read where you think third act breakup is like Cracker Jack, because we want to know.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah, I want to read them.

[Sarah MacLean]

And other than that, that's where we are. Come see us at Faded mates live in St. Louis on July 8th. Tickets are [e-mail] live. Um, if you head over to that website, you will also be able to find all of the tour dates that I have for the month of July. Every one of them comes with a copy of these summer storms, including Fademates Live. But Fademates Live also comes with the city of St. Louis, Jen, Kate Claiborne, and all of the Midwest.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The entire Midwest will be there.

[Sarah MacLean]

We are so excited to see you. It's going to be a great time. In the meantime, if you would like to just hang out with us more and more, you can join our [e-mail] patreon that gives you access to the discord where a thousand or so other listeners are hanging out all the time talking about romance novels. It also gives you access to one extra episode of what we call Banter plus every month where we just talk about whatever's going on. We talk about books, we're looking, listen, we're reading, we talk about, you know, the world and how we feel. You can Also head to fademates.net and smash that link for collections to see some of the many collections that our friends and listeners are putting together. They're awesome. You're gonna love them. You can find us online at Instagram, Threads and bluesky. And other than that, every week. Hope you don't have a third act breakup.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I choose you, everybody. I choose you.

[Sarah MacLean]

A I choose you, too, everyone. Bye.