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- [00:00]
Sarah McLean
You know, I. Eric, this morning was like, did you guys record this week's episode? And I was like, no. And he's like, I feel like you've been recording a lot of episodes. Why is this week's not one of them? And I was like, listen, don't question the process.
- [00:14]
Jennifer Prokop
He was like, I need to question this process.
- [00:16]
Sarah McLean
In fact, I do question the process.
- [00:19]
Jennifer Prokop
He was like, in fact, it is kind of my job to question the process. You know, sometimes it's just the way it goes. We record out of order, and then.
- [00:31]
Sarah McLean
Sometimes you have great people who you're interviewing, and so you do it when they can do it. And then you're like, I don't want to do another one right now. And then Sunday comes, and you think, oh, dear.
- [00:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I text you this morning. I was like, kind of like, you know, we have this plan. Are we doing it today? And I was like, actually, we are doing it today. It's when? Because this is for Wednesday.
- [00:51]
Sarah McLean
Wednesday. So. Hello, everyone from the recent past. Welcome to Fated mates. I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novel, and I write them.
- [01:00]
Jennifer Prokop
And I'm Jennifer Pro Cup, a romance reader and editor. And it's summer.
- [01:06]
Sarah McLean
You are feeling very free.
- [01:08]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, listen. So this is, like, the best thing.
- [01:10]
Sarah McLean
Untethered.
- [01:11]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [01:11]
Sarah McLean
So uncovered.
- [01:14]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, exactly. And it's funny because, of course, I go through this process at, like, the beginning of every June where I am, like, all of a sudden, I have 10 weeks off. And there's, like, a lot of stages to this, and, like, one of them is, like, Thursday I didn't go to work and was kind of like, oh, it's so nice not to go to work today. And my husb was like, shut up. You're gonna be able to do that every day starting Monday. And I was like, yeah, but today. And then the other thing is that there are, like, sort of these moments where I realize, like, I don't have grading to do. You know what I mean? Like, that kind of stuff. So even though I have romance, so.
- [01:52]
Sarah McLean
Instead, you can read a Susan Elizabeth Phillips book.
- [01:55]
Jennifer Prokop
I got back in bed and was reading a Susan Elizabeth Phillips books this morning. It was great.
- [02:00]
Sarah McLean
I mean, it always is, even when it's weir. Yeah, it's great.
- [02:04]
Jennifer Prokop
I'm just doing whatever I want.
- [02:07]
Sarah McLean
Well, that's all very exciting. In my experience. You also go through a period of like, hang on a second. What have we been doing for the last two months?
- [02:15]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, yeah, sure, that.
- [02:19]
Sarah McLean
And that's actually a very familiar feeling, because I go through that also. Often when I'm. Like, when we. When I first started writing. So Eric. My relationship with Eric predates my job.
- [02:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Your writing job?
- [02:31]
Sarah McLean
Yeah, my writing job and what's really interesting. And it also predates, like, us being married, us having children, us, you know, all of the things.
- [02:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Having a mortgage.
- [02:42]
Sarah McLean
We did live together before I wrote, and it took us a few books to realize that this was something that happened. But because of my process, which is very slow and lingering and not really doing anything, and then, holy shit, I have a book due. I better write the whole thing in three weeks, right? It's not three weeks, but it feels intense. The. That. What ended up happening was is I would just, like, go underground, which I continued to do. And then, like, he would live his life and, like, go out with his friends and, like, watch movies and, like, do whatever it was that he was doing. And then at the end of this process, I would, like, lift up my head and go like, hey, how was your day? Let's talk. Let's. Let's go out. Let's, you know, see people. Let's do things. Let's this, let's that. And he'd be like, okay, but you understand that for the last, like, five months, you've been chained to your desk, and, like, I've had a life without you. And we really have had, like, over the years, we had to, like, get used to that, like, the sort of ebb and flow of my.
- [03:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Of the, like, your work.
- [03:54]
Sarah McLean
Yeah, of the work and the process. Now it's a little easier because once you actually, like, have a child, like, I can't go underground. Like, I have to be present for the family stuff, but I think it's still, like. And I don't know if you have this, like, where, like, you don't talk to Mr. Reid's romance until, I mean.
- [04:14]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes and no. I think for me, it's more funny because I, being your podcast partner, have seen this process of you.
- [04:21]
Sarah McLean
Well, you're probably noticing it right now because we're in a bunch of group chats together, and I'm like, not around. And then at some point, I'll be like, here's 25 text messages. And now I'm gone for three days again.
- [04:31]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. No, So, I mean. But it's funny because, I mean, the first year, I think it was probably. You were writing brazen, maybe.
- [04:38]
Sarah McLean
Oh. And I was like, I'm quitting.
- [04:39]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. And I was just like, oh, God, this is so intense for her. And then the next year, I was like, oh, no, this she's just the way it is, just how she does things and, you know, retire. Self inflicted.
- [04:50]
Sarah McLean
Yeah. And every time I'm like, I'm never doing this again. This is awful. I hate it. Everything's gonna be different next time. And then you're like, you say this every time. I mean, everybody in my life is like, yes, this is part of the process. You say this every time. And I'm like, no, this time it's different.
- [05:06]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely more of a procrastinator than my husband, who is far more well able, I think, to just, I don't know, like, manage his work like an adult, you know, And I'm not. I don't think I'm. It's. It can't be as dramatic. Like my process is what.
- [05:22]
Sarah McLean
You're a daily job.
- [05:24]
Jennifer Prokop
Right, Exactly. But there are definitely times where I'm like, okay, well I'm just like getting my grading done at the last minute or whatever. But even then I have sort of gotten better about it. But I don't know, I think our child is a bit of a procrastinator. And the reason I'm telling you that is because he's moved home from college and I guess doesn't. We're like, are you gonna find a job?
- [05:46]
Sarah McLean
You know, it is like, everything feels fine. I don't know.
- [05:49]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, he's like, we people seem.
- [05:51]
Sarah McLean
I'm not in a rush.
- [05:51]
Jennifer Prokop
There's food in the fridge. What's the problem here?
- [05:53]
Sarah McLean
I know everything's clean.
- [05:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Like there's laundry machines downstairs. What do you want from me, people?
- [06:00]
Sarah McLean
I don't have to put quarters, you know.
- [06:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Meanwhile, everybody. He's been home for 36 hours. Yeah, it really is.
- [06:06]
Sarah McLean
But already everybody's like, are you getting a job? What's your deal? Well, I had a fun thing that happened to me last night and we're. It's actually, you know what? I'm going to save it because I'm going to talk about it when we actually get into the.
- [06:17]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay.
- [06:19]
Sarah McLean
The conversation that we have to do. What. What do we have? Don't forget, everybody, by now you've heard about it, but Fade of Mates Live is happening in St. Louis on July 8th. There are still tickets. You can get tickets@fademates.net live. It's going to be super fun. A bunch of listeners are coming. This is always a great time. Kate Clayborne is joining us. We love challenging ourselves to just like say the most not for Kate thing that we can possibly find to say and really set her Off. So enjoy that with us. And what else? That is part of my tour for these summer storms, which will be in New York City, St. Louis, Chicago, Winston, Salem, North Carolina, Newport, Rhode Island, Cambridge, Massachusetts, Atlanta, Georgia, and Indiana, Franklin, Indiana. I mean, listen, with very fun people, lots of friends of the pot are joining. Jen will be there for a couple of them.
- [07:24]
Jennifer Prokop
It's gonna be excited. I'm really excited about it.
- [07:27]
Sarah McLean
New Englanders, come see me in Boston with Adriana. That's gonna be a fun one. And it'll be with Love Struck Books, which is the new romance bookstore up there in Cambridge.
- [07:36]
Jennifer Prokop
You know what? Somebody who is it was in that store and just said, it's delightful.
- [07:40]
Sarah McLean
I hear that. I haven't been yet, so I'm looking forward to heading up there and being there.
- [07:45]
Jennifer Prokop
That's gonna be a nice time. Yeah. You know, it's funny, I don't. Some summers, I think we have a lot of plans, and then some summers we don't. And this is kind of shaping up to be a. We don't have a whole lot of planned summer, which is actually kind of nice because it was a hard school year. So. Yeah, I mean, I don't. We don't have any big travel plans. I mean, I think something will pop up and we'll may, you know, go visit family or do something. But, you know, we, of course, have our WNBA season tickets, but the sky are terrible this year. And so. Why, I think.
- [08:20]
Sarah McLean
Did something happen?
- [08:21]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, we. I think we hired a bad coach, maybe. I'm not sure.
- [08:25]
Sarah McLean
Oh, it's interesting because I don't think of sports like. You don't think of professional sports as. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people do think, like, people who know about professional sports, I don't know about.
- [08:36]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. You just think, like. Like, you hired these.
- [08:38]
Sarah McLean
I'm like, how hard could it be? Coach a bunch of, like, highly skilled basketballers?
- [08:44]
Jennifer Prokop
I. I think, you know, what I would say is we had pretty hard a coach last year who my. And listen, I don't know either. Like, I'm learning.
- [08:55]
Sarah McLean
But that's not your job.
- [08:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Simply not my business. But I will say I. I feel like there's a way in which, like, last year's team felt like they really had some fire in them. And I think some of that is, like, they want to win for the coach. Like, there's a sense of, like, responsibility to the team. You know what I mean? Like, we're winning for each other, and whatever is happening on this team does not have that chemistry yet. And it's hard not to think. So I don't know. It's really interesting. So, you know what? Here's the thing, though. I still have a great time. Like, we still have a lot of fun. Like, I like hanging out with my husband, even if our team's not great. The WNBA is such a small league that every team is actually really good. Like, right. There's amazing players, so I'm always like, there's a fun thing to watch. And it is fine with me. I.
- [09:50]
Sarah McLean
We showed my daughter a League of Their Own last week. Nice. And so if you are out there and you have a, like, tween. I mean, I think probably if you had. Have a kid who, like, can hold attention, this is a fine movie for you. And she got so into it, and then came home from school yesterday or the other day and was like, mom, today. I did a bunch of research on the women's baseball league, and, you know, it's starting again next year. And I was like, that's fun. So fun.
- [10:23]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, I think that in a. Weird, interesting, like, right. Like, women's softball, I guess, is super awesome and compelling. I think they're like. I don't know, like, World Series equivalent just happened. So, I mean, I think that, like.
- [10:38]
Sarah McLean
Women'S soccer, women's basketball, women's volleyball, everything.
- [10:41]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, it's just kind of fun to have. And you know what? I think the thing that is really fun, regardless of, like, the sky, like, how well they're doing, is, like, you know, when you go to. I don't know. As a kid, I was sort of like, the idea that, like, you could fill stadiums to watch women's sports. Right. Like, I was really told over and over again by, like, media or whatever, like, no one wants to watch women's sports. And now, after, like, the Olympics and years of, like, really being like, I was like, oh, no, that's crazy. And, like, actually, there's some evidence that one of the things that suppressed, like, the early, early support of the WNBA was like, men being like, no one wants to watch this. And they were powerful people at, like, networks or whatever. And so, like, you know, it's like, you know, what if you put it on tv, people will watch it. Like, if you. Right.
- [11:33]
Sarah McLean
That is the one thing that I feel like sports people are sports people.
- [11:36]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, exact. Right. I mean, my.
- [11:39]
Sarah McLean
I've been in sports bars.
- [11:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [11:41]
Sarah McLean
So it's just like, a row of TVs all playing.
- [11:43]
Jennifer Prokop
You know what is really cool, Sarah. And I'm sure there's gotta Be one in New York, as there has been a kind of uptick of sports bars that are for, like, women's sports and, you know, and it's not like, everybody's welcome, but, like, what they're gonna be showing is. And I was like, that's really cool.
- [12:02]
Sarah McLean
In your town, even. And I think this is even for small towns. But one of the things that I'm really trying to, like, take to heart over the summers and this is since for the last few summers, like, during the pandemic, like, being able to be outside made me, I think, really appreciate all the, like, free stuff you can do in your town. And what's interesting is I obviously live in New York City. So, like, for example, yesterday we went to ride the New York City transit once a year. Puts the eight of the old subways back in service from, like. Like, way out in Brooklyn. They've draw that you get on the subway on one stop, and it goes, like, two stops, and then you get off it, and then you ride a different subway back, and you just go back and forth until you've done all the trains. It was really fun. You could ride, like, we rode the original, the oldest train in the fleet, which is like, that's so cool. 1890. I have pictures. It. I. I was real dork about it last night. I, like, showed some person who's never met me, like, a bunch of photographs of the subways. It was really delightful. And what I would say separately is I think everybody on here really knows that I love a person who is passionate about something. Like, it doesn't matter if I'm not passionate about it. Like, I want to hear you talk about the thing you're super into. And you know what? People are super into trains. Like, I got on one train, and this old guy was like, let me tell you about this train and the wicker seats. And, like, tell me.
- [13:31]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [13:31]
Sarah McLean
And I was like, tell me everything. Tell me everything about this train. It was really fun, but it cost $2.50 to do that because you just have to swipe into the subway system, and then you could just ride the trains until they put the trains out of service. And it was really lovely. And, you know, we spend. We try to spend a little time in Rhode island every year in this, like, very. I've talked about this on the podcast. It's like, the sleepiest, sleepiest town. But, like, there's free stuff in every town.
- [13:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, right, like park district or. Right, like, you know.
- [14:01]
Sarah McLean
Yeah, yeah, like the Leslie Knopes of your town. Parks and Rec fans are really working hard to make summer free and fun for you. Yeah. So, yeah, check out your, like, town hall parks department. Find something fun and then tell us about it.
- [14:22]
Jennifer Prokop
This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Megan Quinn, author of Till Summer Do Us Part.
- [14:29]
Sarah McLean
Scotty Price, our heroine, has just started a new job and unfortunately for her, it's everyone else on her team is a man. And she sort of shows up, kind of girding her loins for the idea of it being like a real bachelor pad experience, but quickly discovers that in actual fact, this is not the case. And all of the men on her team are happily married.
- [14:52]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, they're all wife guys.
- [14:54]
Sarah McLean
All of them. Right? Or husband or. And husband guys.
- [14:57]
Jennifer Prokop
They all had their books in previous ones and now they all work together maybe.
- [15:01]
Sarah McLean
Right, they all work together. So in an effort to impress her boss, Scotty is like, oh, I'm also married. And some guy Chad in her meeting is like, well, if you're married, why aren't you wearing a wedding ring? And she concocts on the spot a crazy story about how she's not happily married, she's unhappily married, and her boss is like, no problem, I'm gonna hook you up with my husband, who is the best marriage counselor in the northeast. This is chaos. Scotty has realized she has really done a very bad job here of lying. She is. She's broken every rule of lying to your boss and she has no way out. So she panics. She calls her best friend who's like, no problem. I'm going to set you up with my brother, who is a millionaire and improv obsessed. So Wilder Wells, name is Destiny, turns up, they go to marriage counseling and then accidentally trip and fall into having to go to an eight day summer marriage camp with all of Scotty's co workers and their spouses, which feels just wild.
- [16:12]
Jennifer Prokop
This isn't a good job, Scottie. You should also go back on the job market. That's my advice.
- [16:16]
Sarah McLean
I mean, everybody's doing the bad job here, but except for Megan Quinn, who is surely giving us this like, chaotic experience where they are simultaneously pretending to be unhappy, but also pretending to be reconciling and surely smashing all over this.
- [16:30]
Jennifer Prokop
All over the summer camp cabin for.
- [16:32]
Sarah McLean
Sure, because that's what the people want.
- [16:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Of course. So if you are interested, until summer do us part, which sounds like the kind of zany, fun summer read we all want, it is available in print, audio and with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Megan Quinn for sponsoring this week's episode. All right, well, I guess we should talk romance business today, Sarah. And what we are talking about today is Second Chance Romance. Now, we did an episode on Second Chance Romance back in season three with Priscilla Oliveris, who at that time had, like, a Second Chance romance coming out. So, you know, this is, like, sort of a redo. But I think part of the reason we wanted to redo it is because I think you and I both noticed kind of an uptick of Second Chance books back in, like, right. Being written, coming back.
- [17:32]
Sarah McLean
They are the fake dating of our time. Like, Pastor is the quiche of the 80s.
- [17:39]
Jennifer Prokop
The fake dating you see, right? Like, yeah, Second Chance is the fake dating of 2025. There you go. We got it.
- [17:46]
Sarah McLean
That is 100% it. I started to realize that literally every book that I was seeing come, unlike, for example, next. It's next week. I think that we're doing our summer preview episode. And as I've been. As I've been looking at LA or two weeks, or Jen says it's two weeks, so I don't know what next week is. It's a mystery. I'll worry about that. That's problem for tomorrow for Future Sarah.
- [18:09]
Jennifer Prokop
Future Sarah Problem.
- [18:10]
Sarah McLean
Yeah. So. But one of the things that I think is really interesting is every book I've been looking at recently, it feels has some element of Second Chance. And then I sort of thought. I thought, hang on a second. Is it possible I have a lot of big thoughts about this because I actually think. And so that's why we're doing this, because I started to get really interested in, like, what it all means. And I have some, like, social thoughts, and I have some just, like, general book thoughts. But, like, I do think that Second Chance is one of those things that, like, it bumps up against a lot of other tropes.
- [18:49]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I think for sure. I think a big one is, like, Friends to Lovers. I think, like, One Night Stand. I mean, I think it kind of depends on, like, what, you know, caused the rift in the past that they have to repair. But, yeah, I think so, too. I think it's like one of those tropes that, you know, plays well with others.
- [19:07]
Sarah McLean
Yeah, I mean, I think for sure, because, like, for example, I have spent. I've written several books where the conceit is friends to Enemies to lovers. And so I think that ends up feeling Second Chance Y. I think like, then of course there's the classic, which was we were together and then we broke up and now we are not. And now we are getting back together, which is the sort of real standard. But then I started to think, like, is it possible that the reason why Second Chance is becoming so popular is because people aren't thinking about Second Chance baked into the story of most romances in general? Because I think for somebody who likes a third act breakup, Second Chance is baked in.
- [20:14]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, right.
- [20:15]
Sarah McLean
It's already there because we've seen the first romance. Then we see the moment where the relationship is tested and they might pack. Pack it in and like part ways and then we see them choose each other again.
- [20:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [20:31]
Sarah McLean
So for me, I think part of. Of what I struggle with in books that refer to themselves as like specifically Second chance is how is this going to increase the stakes to the point where the story is that third act breakup moment expanded. Does that make sense?
- [20:54]
Jennifer Prokop
You know, I've been thinking a lot about how conflict averse romance is right now. You know, I don't want.
- [21:01]
Sarah McLean
Which we've talked about a lot. Talked about a lot.
- [21:03]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. So it's like, especially in contemporary. Right. Like we don't want anyone to be too bad or do wrong things or. Right. Like everybody's like, nice. And you know, it's just like at the beginning, one of the things is on the discord, somebody said. And I was like, yeah, this is, this is exactly it. It was like at the beginning of the book they're not together and at the end of the book they are, you know, like they're. And I think one of the things that I believe is that uptick in Second Chance means that like, bad things happen the past and we don't really have to. You know what I mean? Like, you don't have to put it on page. We don't have to like grapple with it really. You know, I, you know, it was just all back then. And so it's a way of like sort of admitting that there was some sort of conflict in the past, but somehow, right. We're all like sort of past it now. If that, if that's the case. Right. Whatever happened in the past, that meant it couldn't work out. We have to understand why it's different now. We have to understand what's changed. And I think that is like a real dangerous path, you know, is essentially to say these bad things happened in the past, but don't worry, it's different now. Well, how we have a really Useful. Developed a really useful phrase around the podcast with our listeners and certainly on the discord, which is like, not for Sarah, not for Jen. Right. It's just a way of sort of saying, like, listen, there's nothing wrong with this. Right. People, Some readers will really enjoy it, but for whatever reason, it's not for me. And I think, you know, like, don't yuck. My yum. Has, like, a similar, like, vibe. But I think what I really like about, like, not for Jen is being able to say without, like, sort of fear of offending anybody else. Right. Like, other readers are saying, like, they're bad or wrong. Like. Right. Like, you're just like, this is not for me. And I think one of the things I've done a lot of time thinking about in the past week when I was thinking about Second Chance is we are very accepting of this, I think, when it comes to, like, tropes. Second baby. Not for Jen. Right. Right. I think it is a lot harder for people to get behind that when it's about, like, structural or narrative or writing choices. Right. Because I think a lot of the things that are actually, like, not for Jen and Second Chance that are kind of happening now, I am just. And I. And I, like, I'm gonna talk. It's about everybody. I'm sorry. It's about present tense, which I try not to talk about a lot. But one of the things I think that's really tempting in a Second Chance romance is to do dual timeline.
- [23:43]
Sarah McLean
Yeah.
- [23:44]
Jennifer Prokop
So what you're gonna do is you're gonna show me how things went wrong in one timeline in the past, and then you're going to show me things going right in. Right in the current timeline. Sometimes it is actually like a back and forth. Right. Like, I'm jumping back and forth. And so the what went wrong of it all is actually kind of being hidden from me as the reader. Right. I don't really quite know what went wrong because I'm in a. I'm going to discover it through the second timeline. And then because present tense is so popular right now, it is that even the characters don't know what's about to go wrong. Right. So you've got two timelines, and they're both in present tense, but one is in the past. And I'm.
- [24:33]
Sarah McLean
Which is a sort of my. That's difficult for a brain.
- [24:37]
Jennifer Prokop
I flat out will not read these books. Like, I just won't. They are. That is not for Jen. The whole point for me of. And listen, someone out here right now is it is for you. I'm not trying to convince anybody. Right, right. But I think that the reason I really struggle with this is, to me, the whole point of Second Chance. When it works well, when I've enjoyed it and you write a lot of it, Sarah. Because I also think it's part of some author's core stories or it isn't. Like, I think that's my other thing. I decided Second Chance. Yeah. I think there are people who really are interested in sort of like people with a past.
- [25:14]
Sarah McLean
Not dual timeline.
- [25:15]
Jennifer Prokop
No.
- [25:15]
Sarah McLean
I've only done that because I'm not an idiot. Once you do it once you're like, whoa, shit.
- [25:21]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. But I think one of the things I. I really personally feel like is like, okay, so the whole point about Second Chance is about reflection.
- [25:29]
Sarah McLean
Yeah.
- [25:30]
Jennifer Prokop
And I'm simply just not interested as a person. It is not for Jen to read dual timeline where everything's in present tense. I want to die.
- [25:41]
Sarah McLean
Okay. But I want to talk about dual timeline in general. Yeah. Because I actually think I. What I don't want people to think is like, oh, well, if I just don't do it in present tense, then it.
- [25:52]
Jennifer Prokop
No, I think dual timeline is like reality.
- [25:55]
Sarah McLean
Dual timeline is very, very difficult.
- [25:58]
Jennifer Prokop
You're already on a tightrope and now it's in the stratosphere. But, like, let's talk about dual timeline because it's rough out there.
- [26:04]
Sarah McLean
Yeah. So I think there are. Okay, well, first I want to say I think there are a few ways that people do these books. Like, they sort of fall into buckets, which I am not going to sort. The ones that I'm going to. I'm going to talk about.
- [26:15]
Jennifer Prokop
We're just going to talk about how they work. Yeah.
- [26:16]
Sarah McLean
But I think, like, broadly, you could say there is a dual timeline. Okay. And I'm going to talk about Second chance in general. I think there are. There. I don't know how many there are. I'm going to do this off the cuff. One is the sort of, like, top version is these two people have met again. And then we begin the book at the inflection point of the present meeting, the now. The present day meeting. And we learn through the course of the present day story what happened in the past. We usually. And I'm going to say this does not have formal flashbacks. Like, this does not go past. It doesn't bounce.
- [27:03]
Jennifer Prokop
No, they just talk about it.
- [27:04]
Sarah McLean
They talk. They reveal the. The story over the course of the book. This is largely, for example, how I write A Second Chance. Or like A friends to enemies to lovers, for example. Right. Like, I think this is sort of how a lot of writers do this because the work, and I think this is the second piece of the story which is the work of the evolution of the people and the relationship is happening on page. Right. They're basically going to therapy with each other over the course of the story, beginning to end. That doesn't asterisk, that does not mean that the characters are the exact same at the beginning of this. In fact, arguably they both have to be very different at the like on page one of the Second Chance romance. And they have to fall in love with each other. They have to forgive past them and fall in love with present them. Yes, yes. This is the model, I think this.
- [28:18]
Jennifer Prokop
Let me say this was the model, right. Like when we grew up reading Second Chance. And I think for a really long time that's how Second Chance worked. I, I, I think there are now other ways. So. Right.
- [28:31]
Sarah McLean
So, but when I say like this, yes, you're right. I mean, like, what I mean is like, this is the most common for a long time, this was it. This is the story.
- [28:39]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [28:39]
Sarah McLean
And so I think, I wish I could think of like a good example of this.
- [28:44]
Jennifer Prokop
I, I have one. So like the first Second Chance romance I really ever remember reading was one called Love's Encore by Rachel Ryan. Sandra Brown. Right. And it doesn't matter, I don't have to get into it except that like she, they had a one night stand essentially, or a brief affair at like a ski resort when they were younger. They, she left or he couldn't find her or whatever. Then he hires a decorator to like, you know, and all, and it's her. And then they have to figure out like you have as a reader, have to figure out what went wrong. Right. Like, so this is like, I would also say like a pretty like a very common strategy for sure.
- [29:24]
Sarah McLean
This week's episode of Fademates is sponsored by Ava Miles, author of the hockey experiment.
- [29:30]
Jennifer Prokop
So Dr. Valentina Hargrove has a hypothesis, Sarah. And her research question is, are hockey players modern cavemen? You know, they have bad teeth. Hockey sticks are just like clubs. So she is determined to use a local hockey team, the Alexandria Eagles, as a case study to identify like, kind of maybe how the strengths in these modern cavemen lead them to win the Stanley Cup. So her sample test subject, test subject, thank you. Is Brock Thompson. Brock the Rock Thompson, that is. And she is determined to figure out like, basically, you know, what this guy has going for him. Only it Turns out that, you know, I don't know, he chews with his mouth closed and he smells really great. And yes, he has a scary scar, but it is on a beautifully. A beautifully rock hard jaw. So she's really into him, but she cannot date her test subject. And it is going to all turn out very badly when he figures out that she has not told him that her father is the new owner.
- [30:41]
Sarah McLean
Oh, no.
- [30:42]
Jennifer Prokop
So she is really starting to see that there's more to him than meets the eye. And maybe her hypothesis is not correct. But in the meantime, I think they're gonna be having a lot of fun with sticks and clubs in this. You know what I mean?
- [30:58]
Sarah McLean
Well, if you also would like to have fun with sticks and clubs, you can read the Hockey Experiment right now in print or ebook or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited if your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Ava Miles for sponsoring this week's episode. The prototype of this for me now in, like, recent books is Kennedy Ryan's Before I Let Go, which is the. Okay, it's like, basically it has a prologue that is the past.
- [31:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, that's what I was gonna say. To me, that is a different one because model number two is the prologue is the past.
- [31:40]
Sarah McLean
Oh, interesting. I was gonna talk about prologues, so why don't you talk about prologues?
- [31:44]
Jennifer Prokop
I think probably they are very similar. Right, Like. But essentially, like, you get it.
- [31:48]
Sarah McLean
Gives you a hint.
- [31:49]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, right. Like there, if there is. There is a brief, and I mean brief, and it is not dual timeline. It is at the beginning of the book, only prologue or a couple of chapters even, that are them falling in love the first time. And then essentially it's like the book opens the way you described. Right. And so to me, that is honestly kind of different because if there's any time in the past like, like we're seated with them in experiencing it at that moment or whatever, and then it's like we get a sense of who they were then unfiltered through the years. Yeah, right.
- [32:32]
Sarah McLean
Okay. Yeah, I like a prologue because I. Yeah, I mean, I do think there's. I do think. I don't know. This is what this is. We did a prologue episode. And maybe this is part of it too. But I think, like, there is a difference between obviously, I think the next level then. So that's before I let go, which is a prologue. And then the whole book is two years after these characters divorce. And I'M gonna come back to. I think this is the thing. This episode is gonna be about structure and, like, how the books work. So we'll come back to. Before I let go. Cause I think there's some interesting things happening in this book. Cause then there's a second Kennedy Ryan book that I think does something different, which is part one.
- [33:12]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [33:13]
Sarah McLean
And that is the past. And that is Queen Move. Kennedy's Queen Move. But it's also lots of.
- [33:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Lots of books. Right? Yeah.
- [33:22]
Sarah McLean
Yeah. So then it's like part one, and part one is the past. And then it's part two, which is. And now inflection point. And we're back to the present. And then. And so it's, I guess, a linear structure. The past is the beginning, the present is the rest of the book.
- [33:44]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. There's just like a time jump and a big one sometimes. Right. And it is. Sometimes it's a couple years, right?
- [33:52]
Sarah McLean
Sure. Like in Queen move, it's like 20 years. I don't know if it is entirely 20 years, but it's close.
- [33:58]
Jennifer Prokop
And then I would say the one I'm seeing more of now is like dual timeline. And it's all in. It is. I'm sorry. These books are almost always in present tense. All of them. All of it. And it'll. The only way, you know, is that the chapters then give you like a timestamp. One year ago, seven years ago now, six years, whatever. Right. And then it's.
- [34:21]
Sarah McLean
Now you're talking about. It's fed together.
- [34:25]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I, I listen, I'm gonna tell you, I have seen these books, and I. The minute that is what happens, I stop reading. I bet it's not for chat, but. Yeah. And so I don't want to give examples.
- [34:40]
Sarah McLean
So I get. It's a good. I get what you're saying, but like, Day of the Duchess is that.
- [34:44]
Jennifer Prokop
No, I think it's the present tense that breaks it for me. And it's not. It is not that I can't read dual timeline.
- [34:50]
Sarah McLean
Sherry Thomas has one. That's. Which one is that? That's the good one. I mean, other. All the Sherry Thomases are good, you guys, but I mean, I am.
- [34:59]
Jennifer Prokop
I. I am not interested in reading dual timeline where everything's in present time.
- [35:03]
Sarah McLean
And I.
- [35:03]
Jennifer Prokop
And again, I want to say that I. This is very much not like I'm saying things bad or wrong with it. It is just not for Jen. And I think part of the reason why is because. And this is where I'm going to say my pro. My problem. Sometimes with Second Chance, is that I am not reading romance to watch people break up. And so in a book where it is this right, dual timeline and everything's in present tense, and it's five years ago, six years ago, one year ago, two years ago, whatever, right. Back and forth and throughout the whole history of their relationship, all in present tense. I. I don't want that where I feel like Day of the Duchess, which I loved and is one of my favorite romances. Right. It's really clear at the beginning that there has been a huge. The. The break happened. Right. It opens with him trying to, like, knowing that he's, like, lost her and it's been trying to find her. But I. I don't know. Like, Sarah, I just. I'm like, yeah, this thing happened in the past. This bad thing happened. I don't. I don't know how to tell you what my brain's doing.
- [36:13]
Sarah McLean
I get it. But I also think. I think there's something else that your brain is doing, which is the past. In a lot. In many books, that structure are structurally like this, right? Where there are two timelines and they are woven together. I think as a writer, the most. When I said, like, I won't ever do it again, like, I don't know, maybe I will do it again. But it is so difficult to know what to leave on the page and what to take away. Because if you give too much air to the past, I'm watching them break up, end up watching them, and investing in the breakup instead of the return to each other. And if you give too much air to the present without giving up enough information about the past, then we don't understand, like, whatever went wrong. Right?
- [37:11]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [37:12]
Sarah McLean
So what I want to say about this is that so. So these are all real things. I, last night saw the New the Materialists with Pedro Pascal and Chris Evans and Dakota Johnson. And everybody was sort of like, how's it gonna go? Like, it's gonna. It's a love triangle. Like, who's she gonna choose? You know, this is the whole discussion. So what I wanna say is, is if your. Your podcasting app likely allows for chapters, you should skip, because I'm going to talk. I'm going to spoil this movie. Although if you've ever watched a romcom, you know what happens in this. Like, there's nothing. I'm. What I will spoil is. I will say it is. I went in thinking, like, maybe they'll twist it all up and, like, give us something different. They do not. It is a straight ahead like, it ends exactly the way you think it's going to end. And I won't give you, like, super details, but. So, okay, that is your warning. Skip ahead if you don't want to know. Now that they're all gone, let's. Okay, the. So, okay, Dakota Johnson is in a three, like, love triangle. She ends up choosing Chris Evans, who is the poor boy from her past. Sure. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is because there is this very weird moment in the middle. So, okay. Pedro Pascal plays a billionaire, like, finance guy who is, like, the greatest. Like, he's just terrific the whole way through. Like, I don't understand. He's the greatest. Chris Evan plays, like, the guy Dakota has loved forever. Like, they were together for years. They broke up because he was an out of work, like, actor who had no money. They fought about money all the time. Like, she was like, I just want somebody, like, rich. Like, I just. I don't want to ever have to worry about money. And they broke up and it was sad because they clearly loved each other. Or at least that's what we're told. They clearly loved each other and they know each other and he loves her to pieces, etc. Etc. And ultimately, this is a movie that I'm not 100 sure, like, what we were supposed to take away from it. But, like, Pedro Pascal proposes and she turns him down and she goes to Chris Evans, and that's the story.
- [39:43]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [39:44]
Sarah McLean
Who has not changed. Like, he continues to live in the same apartment, have roommates. He's 37 years old. He, like, taking. Picking up catering gigs and, like, doing terrible acting jobs. Okay. And I have a lot of, like, romance problems with this book, with this movie. However, I want to, like, really stick with the Second Chance piece because we are told at the beginning of this book, and this is a fail. This is a failure of storytelling with Second Chance. And I see it all the time.
- [40:14]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes, I want to talk about this.
- [40:15]
Sarah McLean
We are told. You don't know what I'm gonna say. Maybe you're gonna disagree with me.
- [40:19]
Jennifer Prokop
No, I think I am gonna agree with you.
- [40:20]
Sarah McLean
Uh, we are told that they loved each other very much in the past and that they have never forgotten, like, how. How they feel about each other. We are shown Jen, in a sort of, like, cognitively dissonant moment in the film, one flashback to them fighting about money in, like, this extreme way. And it being very clear that, like, these two people's values will never align. Cut to now some number of years later. Like, five, five to seven years later from this breakup and they meet, like, again at a wedding. She's a matchmaker. She's said out loud multiple times, like, I will. The next. The person I marry will be wealthy. That's the only quality I need. And he's like, still poor, still just a guy. Like a jellyfish in the ocean, right? This is not. You know how I say heroes should be kings? This is not a king. He is not even like a king cater waiter. He is just not a king.
- [41:31]
Jennifer Prokop
He's the guy, right?
- [41:32]
Sarah McLean
So we are led to believe there is nothing different about this man. There are values continue to be diametrically opposed. She never wants to fight about money. And these two are going to fight about money forever, right? So ultimately we're sort of told like, but they love each other. Although we're never shown, like, them in love before. And we're not really given any air of them, like, falling back in love in present tense, right? What is like in the present? Ultimately, what ends up happening is they have the third act breakup in this or the test, right? That is like sort of two seconds long in this movie is her saying, like, I still don't want to be with somebody who is poor. And you are still. This is who you are.
- [42:28]
Jennifer Prokop
You don't care about this.
- [42:29]
Sarah McLean
And he's like. And then they break up for six hours, 10 hours. And then he says, I'm gonna get a manager. I'm gonna pick up more shifts. I love you.
- [42:44]
Jennifer Prokop
Great. Yeah.
- [42:46]
Sarah McLean
Now I'm gonna set aside my. Like, this is a terrible decision, right? Like, as a grown woman, like, you can't. This is not a future. Right? But what I'm gonna say is you have not. Like, if the ultimate test of a romance novel, if the third act breakup is literally like, what we've been saying, which is we must believe that, like, the characters have evolved to a place where they are choosing to be the person in the future with this person, with their love interest instead of carrying forward, carrying all the baggage that they, like, have been dealing with in the past. This movie has fundamentally failed as a romance. Right. The story is not a romance. And like, whatever, I'm not sure it was supposed to be. So it's fine. But the. But I think that this is the problem, fundamental problem with like, the structure of a second chance romance being that the person is the same now as they were then and they're still not evolved.
- [43:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Listen, this is a very difficult trope to make work. And part of it is because. And this is, I think, where the instinct towards dual timeline, regardless of what tense it is in, is really difficult. Is if you show them falling in love in the past but not showing. But you don't show me them falling in love with who they are now. The book has failed. Right? Like, the book has failed for me. And I feel like this is what is essentially happening in a lot of these books with dual timeline is it's sort of like we fell in love in the past and then we broke up for some reason. Maybe it's dumb. We don't know because it's being hidden from me, the reader. So I have to just trust that it was breakup worthy. Unlike, say in Day of the Duchess, where I know goddamn well why they broke up. And I knew it three books ago. Right. And I knew it was breakup worthy. And you. Then it's just like them repairing something over a period of years. This is just. I'm like, why am I reading this? I don't understand.
- [44:52]
Sarah McLean
Understand.
- [44:54]
Jennifer Prokop
And I think that is part of the. And listen, maybe people are like, you're crazy. But I feel like in a romance, if they fell in love and couldn't make it work, I want to see them as different. I want to see the character arc. I want to see the journey. And I need to see them fall in love with who they are now.
- [45:15]
Sarah McLean
Yes, a thousand percent.
- [45:18]
Jennifer Prokop
That's it. That's the whole ball game for me.
- [45:20]
Sarah McLean
Because. Because Jen, Jennifer, I told you I.
- [45:25]
Jennifer Prokop
Was gonna agree with you.
- [45:27]
Sarah McLean
We are in this with them now. Then I need to understand that everybody has changed from then.
- [45:38]
Jennifer Prokop
Correct.
- [45:39]
Sarah McLean
And now the struggle with this, like, I am always, I think, a little bit more forgiving than you are.
- [45:46]
Jennifer Prokop
I think that's true.
- [45:47]
Sarah McLean
True when? About everything, everyone. No, that's actually not true. She's. I'm not more forgiving about a lot of things than Jen, but the. But about writing, I am often more forgiving. And I think part of the reason why is because I understand that sometimes you get yourself as a writer into these, like, messes and you are so committed to the not. Like, you're so clear about where they were about what happened that you. You feel you need to articulate every, like, tiny, fine detail of that in order for you to sure, like, move forward in your brain. And the reality is, is that you absolutely don't. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Avon Books, publishers of Holly Michelle's Last night was fun.
- [46:35]
Jennifer Prokop
So this is you've Got Mail meets Moneyball. So in this we have Emmy Jameson, who. Who is the only female data analyst at a professional. For a professional baseball team. And she's constantly being asked to prove herself, and she's just, like, not gonna, like, date or, like, share personal news at work. It's just like baseball all the time. Now she is in competition for the senior analyst position against her arrogant, infuriating, and, yes, hot coworker, Gabe Olson. He was a baseball star in college and knows the sport inside out. But guess what? So does Emmy. And so she's like, just does her job at work, but she has a pending destination for her sister upcoming in Mexico. She needs to find a plus one. So how convenient that she has engaging in sort of a flirty texting conversation with someone who is a mystery to her. He just texted one night. Last night was fun. And it turned out he was given a fake phone number after a bad date. And that number happened to be Emmy. So despite the rules, she's just like, I feel this connection. What could go wrong? It's just a weekend. Guess what, Sarah. Guess. Gabe. Of course, Gabe. Of course it's Gabe. And so now they have to travel to the wedding together, have to figure out who's, like, the real person they are to each other. And of course, that rivalry is still hanging over their heads.
- [48:01]
Sarah McLean
Oh, boy.
- [48:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Is going to happen.
- [48:03]
Sarah McLean
What is going to happen? We're all gonna have to find out by reading. Last night was fun, which we can do in print, ebook, book, or audiobook if your podcasting app supports it. Click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Avon Books and Holly Michelle for sponsoring this week's episode. So when you look at Ravishing the Heiress, which I think is, you know, superior book, right? We did a. We did a deep dive on it. We love this book. Like, it's great. That dormouse is gonna haunt me until I die.
- [48:35]
Jennifer Prokop
But the.
- [48:36]
Sarah McLean
Okay, 1896 and 1888 are two timelines, and they are woven together, in fact, the beginning. And I don't know, I didn't reread the book, so. But at least at the beginning, it, like, bounces back and forth, like, chapter to chapter, right? Between the past and the present. And so we are given the kind of Millicent falls in love, like, the obsess. The sort of, like, unrequitedness of her love. The, like, hero has this other woman who he's in love with. Like, they are friends, they marry, and now they are back at it for a reason. Right? Going back to what you were saying, like, the reason is she wants A baby. Right. Like, so they're here, like, back at it. And so I think, obviously this is a thing that, like, in historical works in a different way, because there's, like. Like you said, there's stakes right on the ground. Although one might argue you referenced Day of the Duchess and, like, the stake there, like, the. The. The offense. The offense itself is very common in present day. He cheated on her.
- [49:38]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [49:40]
Sarah McLean
So. And I want to come back to cheating, too, but that's a separate thing. So the. So when you think about this structure, Sheri had to really. You can't just write two romance novels and then put them together.
- [49:55]
Jennifer Prokop
Correct. Right.
- [49:56]
Sarah McLean
The worst case scenario is you've written two romance novels, you take the past and you end up ended at the third act breakup, and then you weave them together. Right. And then the front. The.
- [50:05]
Jennifer Prokop
The.
- [50:05]
Sarah McLean
Then you do it again. You can't do that. What Sherry had to do is actually, like, balance how much information she was going to give you about the past versus what she was going to, like, reveal about these characters and their true selves in the present. And on top of it, it has to have a plot.
- [50:25]
Jennifer Prokop
Correct.
- [50:25]
Sarah McLean
Or else. Else you're reading, like, two characters who have learned nothing about themselves.
- [50:35]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. And I think this is why I like to listen. Dual timelines, just really hard. It's hard regardless.
- [50:39]
Sarah McLean
So difficult to write you guys.
- [50:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Right?
- [50:42]
Sarah McLean
It is so difficult because I do.
- [50:43]
Jennifer Prokop
I think sometimes you're just like, this is too much information. Why is it all here? Right.
- [50:47]
Sarah McLean
And I also think. Sherry, tell me. Sorry. Let me just also say this. If you're out there thinking about this, Sherry Thomas is a professional driver on a closed course.
- [50:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Correct.
- [50:57]
Sarah McLean
Separating the. Like, actually literally bouncing back and forth chapter to chapter is a structure that, like, when I sat down with Day of the Duchess, there was no way I was going to do that. Like, it is too difficult to thread that needle. What you need to be able to do, like, Day the Duchess has passed, but they are every four or five chapters and only when the present requires.
- [51:24]
Jennifer Prokop
You to get that information to, like.
- [51:27]
Sarah McLean
Sink back into a, like, deeply emotional beat of the past. That's the other thing. It can't just be, and then we ate ice cream. It has to be, we ate ice cream and everything went to that day.
- [51:39]
Jennifer Prokop
Listen, do I believe that people, like, drift apart and have a hard time figuring it out? I do. But you know what? In 99.99% of cases, they never drift back together again. And I feel like I have to really, deeply understand who they are now. That they would even take a chance on getting back with this person who broke their heart. Right. They broke on this person. And that I think is again, you're starting at such a moment of absolute intensity. And if that doesn't exist, if it's just like. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of really big questions then for me about like, what is going to make somebody take that chance again. And I, it's. And you know, it's funny because I, you know, obviously I'm sure you have a list of books you want to talk about and you know, maybe we can talk about before I let go, which I think probably many people would consider a real, a real example of like there's a incredible pain in the past of these two people.
- [52:46]
Sarah McLean
All right, let's talk about before I let go because also I think this is a book where, I mean this feels like it's in many ways like the book where Kennedy leveled like up out of romance, like in the world. Like, I think suddenly people outside of romance started paying attention to Kennedy with this book.
- [53:04]
Jennifer Prokop
And listen, I would like you to talk about it before because I think it didn't. There's a way it didn't work for me. Maybe we can get there. I think it's a beautiful book. I think that it's a great example of a second chance romance. But I have a real hard time with. I'll just say it and then you can talk about it secret keeping in present tense the whole entire time. They know what went wrong. You as the reader don't find out until the end. And I was like, this doesn't make, that just doesn't make sense to me. Brian Brain kind of heard on that book because of that. But I still think the emotional journey of this book is still very successful.
- [53:40]
Sarah McLean
This is a present tense issue with Jen. Like if you like if you do not have a present tense issue, then you won't care.
- [53:47]
Jennifer Prokop
You will be like swept away in the absolute crucible that is this book.
- [53:52]
Sarah McLean
Yeah, here we are again. Right. With this Sherry Thomas and I would say also Day of the Duchess. Right. Like these are three books that traffic in emotion dialed up to 11, 11,000 say, I say all romance has to dial the emotion of 211. But like these three books do it in a way that like it like where it is all emotion. Like if you're not locked into the emotional pain. And this is, I think where we're at. It's second chance Roman requires you to mine pain. And here's where the Rubber meets the road. On my theory of where we are right now, I fear that the reason why Second Chance is becoming so popular is because readers would rather look to pain and like, discomfort that they are familiar with with than ex. Then risk with, like some new interesting.
- [55:03]
Jennifer Prokop
Journey, the devil, you know, kind of thing.
- [55:05]
Sarah McLean
And I think this is social. Like, I. You know how I say it? We say all the time, like, romance holds a mirror to society. And so, like, I'm going to speak to gender. I'm going to say something gendered. And like, obviously take this with all of the caveats of, like, not all Microsoft everything. Right. But I think young women would rather read a story about, like, rekindling something that didn't feel a hundred percent right in the past, then risk getting involved with some damaging, dangerous person out there right now who they like are. Because it is risky. Dating right now is risky. These are strangers. So, like, is it the devil you know better than the devil you don't? Right, Right. That is a fundamentally different story. Then we have to mine the pain that we committed when we hurt each other and find a way to reckon the devastation of our past relationship with the unparalleled love that we have for each other.
- [56:15]
Jennifer Prokop
And that's why, listen, before I let go, it's still a book I would recommend to people. Yeah, this one thing didn't work for me. But, like, that is a book that really unflinchingly looks at the way people who deeply love each other can really hurt each other or not support each other in the way they need. Like somehow, miss. Right. Like somehow not. And I think that's true of, like every Sheri Thomas book and certainly true of Day of the Duchess. But like, you write a lot of sex Second Chance Sarah, like Grace and Ewan, when you think about Borne, Right. Like, these are people who.
- [56:52]
Sarah McLean
These are paint. Like they have both. They have been put through the ring.
- [56:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [56:56]
Sarah McLean
And I mean, like Grace and Ewan. My God.
- [56:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, that's what I'm saying. And so I think. Right, but that's.
- [57:03]
Sarah McLean
But for me. And again, like, not for Jen, you know, it's not for Sarah. Like, well, I don't know. It just didn't work the first time.
- [57:10]
Jennifer Prokop
Correct. That's like, why not for me either. What's the point? Like, right, Then why weren't. Why couldn't you figure it out then? Why. Why are you only figuring it out now? That's stupid. Like, I just can't do that. So, yeah, I think that's it. It has to really feel Real. And I think I, you know, as I was thinking about the books that I sort of wanted to recommend today, I mean, outside of, like, before I let go, I think a lot of it is kind of like, well, what made it break in the past in ways that, like, I sort of then found myself thinking. And it was like a lot of them were like, in historical, it's sometimes about money. In a contemporary, though, one of it's almost always like keeping secrets or someone meddled, someone thought they knew better and convinced the person, if you really care about so and so you will leave them. And for whatever reason, because the relationship was not on firm ground, they. They listened. And so I think, like, but like, those to me then, like, what you're really reconciling with is, are you gonna trust me now? Are you gonna listen to me?
- [58:21]
Sarah McLean
Yeah.
- [58:24]
Jennifer Prokop
This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by 1001 Dark Knights, publishers of dark clouds and bright skies. A grumpy, Grumpy sunshine collection.
- [58:35]
Sarah McLean
Isn't that the greatest way of framing this particular flavor of grumpy sunshine? Which is exasperated man who is, like, dark criminal, never felt a feeling. And the, like, bright, manic pixie, like, just absolute delight who wrecks his whole identity.
- [58:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes. And he's like, I hate being. I hate it. I like to be grumpy. And look, he's still gonna be grumpy at the end.
- [59:04]
Sarah McLean
He is, but not around her. Never around her. I'll bet you in every one of these short stories in this collection from 1001 Dark Knights, and we've talked about these before, each one is bundled up. It's four books bundled up. And they're all this one particular flavor of trope. And in this case, listen, the reality is that these women know how to write. There's no question you're gonna get books from Joanna Wilde, Kristen, Probie, Larissa, Ione, and Laura in here.
- [59:38]
Jennifer Prokop
What more could you want? I can't even think of it.
- [59:40]
Sarah McLean
At least like people we have talked about multiple times on the podcast. I've already pre ordered this anthology.
- [59:46]
Jennifer Prokop
Me too.
- [59:48]
Sarah McLean
And here's what it's going to be. It's going to be like a man who hates absolutely everything and has never felt a feeling and the women who just wreck him. And I don't know what more you could ask for in 2025 than this.
- [60:03]
Jennifer Prokop
No, I don't either.
- [60:04]
Sarah McLean
So that's what I have to say about that.
- [60:07]
Jennifer Prokop
All right, so everybody, if you are also interested in having the delightful experience of a bright Sky Winning over a Dark Cloud and Making for a Beautiful Romance. Then check out this collection from 1001 Dark Nights. It's available in print or in ebook, and if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to 1001 Dark Nights for sponsoring this week's episode.
- [60:35]
Sarah McLean
I want to say something about misunderstanding miscommunication in here too, because I think that this is another thing that, like, God, we're all listening to the Internet too much. But like, readers. We've talked about this before too. But like, readers like to get on the Internet and they like to say, like, I hate misunderstandings.
- [60:55]
Jennifer Prokop
Why don't they just have one conversation?
- [60:57]
Sarah McLean
Just talk it out.
- [60:57]
Jennifer Prokop
Do you not have human relationships? Relationships?
- [60:59]
Sarah McLean
First of all, like, have you ever been in a relationship before? Right?
- [61:03]
Jennifer Prokop
Not even a relationship. Any relationship. Any.
- [61:05]
Sarah McLean
That's what I mean, any relationship. It is very difficult. Okay? Personal story for my life. My middle school student Jen knows this, had like a, like middle school moment with her friends this week at school. It is deeply irrelevant what this was about because let me tell you, when I finally figured it out, I was, was like, why?
- [61:26]
Jennifer Prokop
Right? Why? Why are we doing this?
- [61:29]
Sarah McLean
But the. One of the things like, she. Whatever it was like rumors, gossip, I said, people said, I said this and I never did, blah, blah, blah. And I said to her, I was like, listen, kid, like, the way you solve this problem is by turning the lights on, right? Like, you, you just like, don't give air to the problem and, like, turn on the lights and tell the truth and just like, hope that, like, ultimately that's enough people will hear it.
- [61:52]
Jennifer Prokop
Right?
- [61:52]
Sarah McLean
Right? Do you realize, like, how many thousands of dollars and years in therapy it took me to get to turn on the lights, right? Like, I do not expect my 11 year old to be able to fundamentally do this right now. But, like, I'm going to keep saying it to her because maybe I could save her some money. But the, but the point is, like, it is very difficult to turn the lights on in an em. In a relationship. And so, like, I think the other piece of this is, is instead of us saying, like, I. I think a lot of these writers are thinking, well, I can't have it be a misunderstanding, even though that is the most authentic problem in so many of these situations, right? Like, before I let go is it begins two years after a divorce that is related to like, fertility issues, right? And like, they just can't. They're both in so much pain that they were unable to, like, climb out of the muck and mire when they were married. It ended their relationship and now they have to figure it out. Right. And Kennedy, when you ever hear her talk about this book, she talks so much about, like, the importance of mental health, especially for men. Especially for black men. Right. Like, the layers of, like, emotional work that Kennedy, he puts into this book to make it believable that they are somewhere different now. People who love each other beyond measure could have simply just not talked it out and ruined everything.
- [63:23]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, and I think it's because the thing about Turn on the Light is like, this type of miscommunication is not based in secrets or lying. It's the type of miscommunications that it's like, deeply rooted in. Like, here's how I operate in the world.
- [63:40]
Sarah McLean
Yep. Worth.
- [63:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [63:42]
Sarah McLean
Like, your value.
- [63:44]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [63:45]
Sarah McLean
Your fundamental core beliefs in yourself. And like, like, obviously, weirdly enough, like, Day of the Duchess is also about fertility.
- [63:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Right?
- [63:53]
Sarah McLean
Right. And that is what they, like, that is what fundamentally, like, sort of it's separated them on multiple levels. Right. Like, there are, there are a couple of reasons why, why they've been. And fertility is one of them. And I remember that moment writing the, like, it's in the past. The scene where Sarah loses a child and is basically approached and told. Like, it's old. Right. It's, it's historical. So doctors are just like, well, looks like you won't be able to do that again. Right. Which in history was a thing. And his and Mal's mother goes to her and says, well, you have no worth anymore. How much will it cost to get you to leave? And, like, she's like, well, I guess he doesn't care. And she takes the money and runs. And like, the, these perceptions of, like, who we are, what our value is, like, how we are, what our value is to the other, to the other person that we're with. Like, these are deeply pain. These are pain points, all of them. Them. And if you're not willing to mine that pain as a writer, like, if you're not comfortable doing that, second chance is going to be a struggle for you. But the other thing that I said about, like, maybe these more modern second chances are actually negotiating something very different than pain. Maybe they're negotiating like, it's still pain, but it's avoiding pain.
- [65:24]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I, I, you know, it's interesting because I do have a couple that I are pretty recent that I can recommend. I, I, I'm really fascinated, though, because I fe, I fear that if it is, in fact this year's fake dating, that it is gonna be kind of a bust. Because, right. Like, fake dating is a trope that that, like, creates conflict out of nothing, right? Like, we, you know, there's really no reason we can't be together. But, you know, for whatever reason, you know what I mean? Like, fake dating is just like, we're gonna make conflict maybe where none really exists. Or the conflict is like, we are lying to people. And very few, very few romances actually, like, put the pain of that the discovery on page. Because if you're just lying to your co workers, I hate to tell it to you, but your co workers don't really care who you're dating or not. They don't. And so, you know, this is a way of creating, like, sort of the. The appearance of a conflict, but that's it. I'm like, if you were together in the past and you broke up and something kept you from being together, right? Like, what is that thing and how are you going to fix it? And one of the things I just think is, like, so here's an example of a fake dating book that actually is coming out this week that I think is successful. Because if I told you, I'd have to kiss you by May Marvel. And Yeardley is a CIA agent and her girlfriend, Casey, they've just broken up. I mean, literally, I think she's still moving the stuff out. And for Yeardley, she was like, I cannot tell her I'm a CIA agent. It's a secret. I literally cannot tell her. And what she discovers is that Casey is also working for the CIA. They have worked together not knowing because, you know, like, it was. Casey's just like, a programmer or hacker and, like, you know, like, kind of behind the computer. And once they realize the truth, they have to kind of figure out how to work past that. But, like, they both kind of get that, like, well, we are both CIA agents, right? Like, you know what I mean? Like, we were both keeping a secret we had to keep for work. And in fact, a lot of the angst is about the fact that they're then their. Their bosses, the people that were sending them out on these missions, did of course, know that they were together and didn't tell them, right? So it's like all of the displacement from the. I mean, and it's a great book, but it's not a great second chance romance. In fact, it's kind of just a nod to second chance. They have barely broken up. Yeardley stuff is still in the house. Right. And so I think that that's the other thing is we're gonna see maybe Second Chance, where it's kind of a nod to Second Chance, but not the kind of Second Chance where whatever terrible thing that broke them up broke. You know, I don't know if that makes sense. So I think it would work for people who are maybe looking for, like, a low. I think what we're going to see is, like, lower stakes Second chance.
- [68:40]
Sarah McLean
I think that's what we are seeing. Like, people who, you know, just weren't. You know, they broke up because of whatever. In high. I think there's a lot of high school.
- [68:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [68:51]
Sarah McLean
Like, we were together in high school, and now we're. Yeah. And now we're, like, back. And listen, I'll be honest. Those were some of my very favorite books when I. When, like, when I was coming through romance in the early days, like, we. Like, you were supposed to take me to prom. You never showed up. My favorite conflict. Right. And, like. And then it was like, well, I didn't show up because my father, like, kicked me out of the house or whatever. Right.
- [69:16]
Jennifer Prokop
Well. And those are. Actually. I have some. I still enjoy some of those. I think it depends on the distance in time. And I think it has to be really clear to me that both of those people can look back on whatever happened and realize, like, we're different people now. Like, that was youth. We were really at the mercy of other people. We're different now. And, like, kind of almost very quickly, like, they managed to, like, kind of talk about what happened and move on.
- [69:49]
Sarah McLean
Right.
- [69:49]
Jennifer Prokop
Cause that's.
- [69:50]
Sarah McLean
If you're 30.
- [69:51]
Jennifer Prokop
If you're 30 and you're still upset about, like, being not your prom date, not showing up, like, what have you been doing with yourself for 12 years?
- [69:59]
Sarah McLean
Yeah.
- [69:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. I need you to be, like, an adult now.
- [70:02]
Sarah McLean
Yeah.
- [70:04]
Jennifer Prokop
But, like, so Queen Move is different because it's.
- [70:06]
Sarah McLean
Queen Move is structurally different because it. I mean, the first sort of third of that book is them as children, like, literal children. And they were like, what? She's teeing up there is something very. So this is also Kennedy, obviously, we're talking core story here. Like, I think Kennedy. There's no question that this is part of Kennedy's core story. But in. Interestingly, in Queen Move, like, the structure there is. The first third of the book is when they were children. And what she's teeing up there is that they are fated mates. Like, she's playing with the concept of, like, what if they were fated mates? All along, right. Then they. Their parents move away from each other for a reason. Like there's a. The one's father has an affair with the other one's mother. Like, and so they separate. They are. They are ripped apart and they don't really know whatever happened. Like, they're just dis. Distanced and then come back together in their 30s and he's. Like, when they first meet, the. The implication is that he is still married and like he's. Whatever. He's in the process of divorcing. Like it's. Whatever it is, but the. And then they fall in love with each other. Older, wiser.
- [71:23]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, Different.
- [71:24]
Sarah McLean
Different. Right. Like grown up.
- [71:26]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [71:27]
Sarah McLean
And I think that's what's interesting. Falling in love with each other. Grown up is critical to kind of all of these books, no matter when the first chance was. So I just want to talk about like while we're just. While I'm just being chaotic. I want to talk about structure too, because some of these books are really interesting in the way that they're playing with structure, not with flashbacks or timeline or whatever. But for example, Tara DeWitt's Left of Forever, which came out earlier this year, came out in May, is interestingly, it's a. A divorced couple. They were children. They were. They were in high school. She got pregnant, they had a child. Like, they got married too young. Like, it's sort. This feels like a very real story, right. It's very authentic. They live in the same town. They got divorced because it just was so all the burdens of everything around their, like, early, you know, raising a child young, being married young. There is content warning for fertility issues in this book too. Like that come kind of all come to a head. They get a divorce, but they live in the same town and they are co parenting. And it is very clear at the beginning of this book that they like really love each other. They just couldn't make it work. And Tara clearly really loves romance novels, like the old, like old school romance, because she is not afraid to like, also mine this like, deep well of pain that exists when like you are literal feet from the person who you have loved your whole life. And you know, like, there's this great quote and it's like I grew up with my like, first and forever love, right. And so I. I don't know how to live without him. Right. Like, I. I don't. I'm really paraphrasing.
- [73:25]
Jennifer Prokop
She wrote it better.
- [73:26]
Sarah McLean
But like the. And there's this moment. So, you know, imagine that. Imagine like Being so in love with somebody and knowing that you've been through it once and it failed and, like, really having to come to learn and trust that you can do it again, and maybe it won't fail. It is first presence. So it's probably not for Jen, but. But part of what I think is interesting in this book is, like, she's using letters, she's using emails. Like, again, kind of. Kind of. Structurally, it's interesting to me because it's.
- [74:01]
Jennifer Prokop
He does put the past on page, right? Yeah.
- [74:03]
Sarah McLean
It's sort of this question of. And like, obviously, I love an epistle. Epistolary romance. You mentioned a rogue by any other name. Like, the past in a rogue by other. Any other name is only through letters.
- [74:15]
Jennifer Prokop
Only through letters.
- [74:16]
Sarah McLean
Right, right. So I think there are interesting ways that you can think about format and, like, actually make a book that. But I did find that this book was like, again, I think, like, very emotional. Like, she was really mining a very particular kind of believable emotion.
- [74:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I mean, I think that that is, I think, for me, for sure, like, a really key part. I would like to talk about a historical called Designing His Duchess by Gabrielle Carr. And this is almost a novel.
- [74:49]
Sarah McLean
I don't know that name.
- [74:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. You know, this is really interesting. It's Pohar Gabrielle Carr. It's part of a series, like one of those Kindle Unlimited series called Regency in Color, where it's like seven or eight books. And all of the books contain characters who are people of color in some kind of way or another. And in this one, Juliana. And these are at least the one I. This one was pretty short, like, novella length, maybe 120 pages and in. And it's, you know, listen, this is, I think, like, it's a very classic kind of story. There's not a lot of surprises, but I thought it was done really well. And so it opens with Juliana, who has been essentially told by her aunt and uncle that it is time for her to get herself married. Off on the marriage mart. And she is really hesitant to do this. She has internalized some messaging about her mother, her. So her parents. So her uncle is like the Earl or something. And her. Her. Her father was a younger brother. He was traveling, met a woman, a free woman from Jamaica. They were wildly in love. They married, they came back to England, and she, like, grew up in this household full of love. And she was never made to feel like, you know, bad, different, wrong. But once her parents died and she went to live with her aunt and uncle, that sort of changed and she's also hard of hearing. And. And she is just like, I don't want to get married. Just like, let me go to France and paint. And, like, just. It will cost you nothing. Like, right. Kind of like, just. And actually, I'm such a good painter. This is one place she is very. She's very proud and knows her work is good. She's like, I could actually maybe like, make a mate. Like, make my own money painting, if you would just kind of let me. And it's actually a really painful scene. And I actually love this, which is.
- [76:53]
Sarah McLean
She.
- [76:55]
Jennifer Prokop
She's kind of like. But her aunt's like, no, you gotta get married. Like, this is how it goes. So we're gonna take you out to the ball. And a girl comes over and seems to be, like, kind of maybe interested in befriending her. And they, like, walk across the room, and they're, like, walking towards Colin, who's the Duke. And this is like, of course, this man she's been in with, love. And it turns out this girl is just, like, basically, like, she's ugly and can't hear, and it's gonna make me look better, like, looking to humiliate her. It's almost. It's like, really almost unreal. And Colin is kind of like a drunken wastrel. And we've seen him, like, drinking and gambling. He was the younger son. His father and his older brother have died, and so now he has inherited the Dukedom. And what we find out is like, she was like, we were gonna run away to Gretna Green together. We were childhood friends. And you never showed up. Right. And you're like, what did. What happened? Well, of course, Sarah, what happened? Right? His father was like, you pick her or. You're hilarious.
- [77:57]
Sarah McLean
Yeah, exactly. Of course.
- [77:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Right? Of course.
- [78:00]
Sarah McLean
I love a terrible dad. Exactly.
- [78:02]
Jennifer Prokop
And you know what? I think it's. And so then, of course, Colin's such a dummy. He's like, well, she will never love me again because I ruined my chances, but I could help her find somebody who will love me. Her.
- [78:15]
Sarah McLean
Yep.
- [78:15]
Jennifer Prokop
And I was like, perfect, all in.
- [78:17]
Sarah McLean
And I'm gonna get her married as. As penance.
- [78:21]
Jennifer Prokop
Right, exactly. And it's. And what's great is he has a friend who's basically like, you're an idiot. Right. And so it has all of. I mean, listen, it's like I said, there's nothing surprising, this book, but it was just a really perfect 120 pages of, like, really tight, like, I fucked you over in the past. I want to Try and fix things. But I think you're perfect and wonderful and beautiful. How dare the world not know that about you? And bam. It was great. So that was Designing His Duchess by Gabrielle Carr.
- [78:55]
Sarah McLean
I want to talk about Alexis. Daria's a lot like adios too. Just sort of briefly because that's another. That's probably a softer like it's like a. If you're looking for like a softer second chance. Gabe, these are high school students who high school like they grew up next, next door to each other. We talked, we've talked about this before, so I don't want to spend too much time on it. But there are two things I want to sort of hit on. One is the betrayal in the past here is that he had the, this like sort of plan. They were, they were best friends and they were planning to like be together, like be best friends. And they also like secretly loved each other and they were writing fanfic together and like it's really like a nerdy, like real joyful, nerdy like story. And he decides he's going to go to LA for like post, post graduation and like try to like make a go of it there and. But he doesn't tell her because he doesn't want her to know. Like he feels guilty and it, it does feel very like real. Like in a sense of like this is what a 17 year old boy would do. Right. And then he leaves and he, she feels totally betrayed and he sort of like cuts her out because he doesn't know how to like be a normal person yet. Right. Starts to like chain of gyms like the. For romance reasons. He's back in New York and because he and his partner have decided they're going to buy. They're going to start a new gym in New York and he goes to stay at his old, his family's like his home, his home, his parents house. And she is for romance reasons staying in her parents house. So they are like neighbors once again. They like kind of work it, they work through it real fast and then they like immediately start having like terrific sex. And so like. And so this is a sort of lower stakes second chance romance. But what I do want to say is that this is a good example of like the flashbacks in here structurally are fanfic.
- [80:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [80:59]
Sarah McLean
Like they're like back and forth text messages and the fic itself. And Alexis sort of uses this in the, in other, in other books of hers as well, kind of using these like found objects or like other texts. But this is a very fun Way of, like, unpacking what happened in the past, unpacking why they were. Were so perfect for each other in the past and reminding us that, like, and them. That there is. There has always been a spark there. And so it makes sense that there would be a spark there.
- [81:32]
Jennifer Prokop
Again, let me. Let me just talk about two more.
- [81:34]
Sarah McLean
And then we can wrap up.
- [81:35]
Jennifer Prokop
Since I know we mostly talked about structure today and not about books, but I think these are ones that are successful in different ways. Okay, I want to talk about Broken by the Horde King by Zoe Draven. And what this one has is. And I think often this is one that's sort of successful to me is like, it, like they were really young, right? They were friends. She had a big, huge crush on him. And the way it works in, like, the Horde. The Horde king or whatever, right? Like, their little village is that she. You can essentially, like, show your intent by like, placing, you know, like a goblet in front of this, the person you like. And if they drink out of it, right? Like, then, oh, no. And I know oh, no. And she does. And he ignores it. And she is like. And it's like, humiliating. Straight to jail. She humiliated herself in front of, like, her adoptive parents because she's human. And all the rest of them have tails and stuff. Whatever. And look at this. Just me reading these books, right?
- [82:42]
Sarah McLean
All the rest of them have tails and stuff.
- [82:46]
Jennifer Prokop
Sure. Okay. And so what happens then is he actually, like, runs out after her and she kind of offers herself to him again and he is just like, no. And then he goes off and he becomes Horde king. And she. Now, the part that's really interesting is this is humiliating and terrible, but it's actually not the thing she can't forgive him for. And I think this is where the book does something really smart, which is then it picks up nine years later. So this is one of those books where I think it's like the first three chapters are the past. It's not dual timeline. It's just this happened and now it's nine years later and he has gone off and like, basically, if you become a certain rise up to a certain rank, you go off and find your own Horde, which is like a traveling group of people. And he has done this. And the thing though, that she cannot forgive is that when her mother died, she sent him a letter that was like, my mother died and you are my friend and I need you to come back and be here for me. And he doesn't reply. And then she actually goes to his Mother and says, can you send him this letter? And her mother agrees. And he never comes back. And this, to her is the thing that's unforgivable. And so when he returned nine years later, she's now a healer. He needs one for his hoard. How convenient. He's like, I want it to be you. And kind of for reasons she'll never get the promotion inside her village, the one they grew up in. So she agrees to go with him, but just like, she's kind of like, just for a little bit of time. And he really is like, I know I hurt your feelings, but we were young. Like, why is she so fucking furious at me? And I think that this is largely an effective way of sort of deepening a child, like a. Right a. Like, you broke my heart when I was kind of a dumb teenager. And it takes a while for him to even realize her mother is dead. Right. And he's basically like, why didn't you tell me? And that's when they realize that essentially. And then it's kind of like now he has to, well, why didn't my mother tell me? Right. What was going on? And kind of why? Why? You know, and like I said, I think it's really effective because the mining of the hurt isn't the hurt that he. That they think it is.
- [85:09]
Sarah McLean
Yep.
- [85:10]
Jennifer Prokop
So that's Kieran and Mava in Broken by the Horde King. And it was great.
- [85:15]
Sarah McLean
You know, that made me think about Kylie Scott's. It seemed like a good idea at the time because, again, this sort of youthful stupidity is a real fun. I mean, it's fun.
- [85:28]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [85:29]
Sarah McLean
Also, everyone knows I love an unrequited love story. And I think unrequited love is really hard to pull off, too. I think there are a handful of writers who I think do it perfectly, and I think Kylie is one of them. The structure of this book is the main character, Adele, is she. Her parents are divorced. She's like. She only spends summers with her father, and he's, like, in construction. And he has this second in command named Pete who's like. And Adele doesn't have any friends in town, and she's an awkward teenager. And whenever she comes into town when she's a teenager, he's just her bud. He's nice to her and he's just a nice guy. He's in his 20s and he's just nice. And she falls hard for him, but the feeling is not reciprocated. And when she turns 18, there's a party and he comes to her birthday party because he's a nice guy. And she kisses him and he's like, oh, no, ma' am. And she is so embarrassed, just, like, devastated with embarrassment, that she takes off. She doesn't come back for, like, I don't know, year, like eight years.
- [86:39]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, she drilled a hole in the ground with her body. Sarah takes a long time. Time to crawl back out of there.
- [86:45]
Sarah McLean
I mean. And the thing is, is Kylie's so good and that, like. I mean, you read it and you're like, oh, my. Like, just devastated with embarrassment. And then she comes back because her father's getting married again. And Pete is like, she. There's no room for her to stay at her dad's house in this small town. And he's like, well, you could stay at my house. And she's like, I would rather.
- [87:07]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, die. Let me go back in my house.
- [87:09]
Sarah McLean
Exactly. But in fact. But, like, I don't know what happens, but for some reason, she ends up sleep staying in his house. And then they, like, you know, they work it out. It's great. But the, like, that level of, like. I think it really takes a particular kind of writer to be able to just, like, really deeply pinpoint the particular embarrassment of being an idiot child.
- [87:32]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. I have one more, and I think. I think I saved it for last because to me, it is the one that, like, takes a really incredible swing. And I was, like, honestly kind of shocked that it happened, and it really worked for me. But I'm gonna warn people it. It might not work for them. So it's. The book is called Make Me Hate youe by Candy Steiner. And I've never read a book by this author before, but now I'm really interested in reading more. We have mentioned Candy Steiner. When Jessica Luther was on the sports episode, she mentioned a book by Candy Steiner. And I remember being like, oh, that sounds interesting. But now I'm like, oh, this is interesting. So in this book, we have Tyler and Jasmine. And this is a book that starts out with, like, here we are. Right? Like the one we described, like, sort of the classic. And it turns out that. That. Although now that I say, like, sometimes I say this with such authority. And then I'm like, wait, is that in fact, true? Okay, so what happens is Tyler and Jasmine were kind of besties, along with Tyler's sister Morgan, back all the way through high school, all the way through kind of their early. Maybe even early. No, I think maybe it was through high school school. And. Oh, no, I think it starts with a prologue. All Right. So, yeah, there's a prologue. And it's. It's. They're like right around high school graduation, Jasmine's boyfriend has just broken up with her. But even worse is her mom has taken off. And her mom has been an im. Like, essentially she's. Her aunt has been raising her because her mom is just not. Not a good person, has done some bad things and now has just basically been like, you're on your own now. Bye. And it has broken Jasmine's heart. So she goes to find Morgan and Tyler. Morgan's not there. She finds Tyler, they have sex. She has had this crush on him. She's like, everything's going to change now. And then the next morning or he's gone. And a day, a couple days later, he's like, it's a mistake. And her humiliation and her anger and her hurt is so huge that she basically, like, takes off, moves to California, goes to college there and never comes home again.
- [89:57]
Sarah McLean
Yeah. Right.
- [90:00]
Jennifer Prokop
And it takes her a long time. And then, like, the book picks up. Now it's however many years later, ten years later or something. Morgan's getting married and there's no way that Jasmine cannot show up for this.
- [90:11]
Sarah McLean
Yep.
- [90:11]
Jennifer Prokop
And Tyler is very. Acting a little like the hurt party.
- [90:18]
Sarah McLean
Uhhuh. And she's like, sure, what the hell.
- [90:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Is going on here? And it takes a while for her to, like, sort of get to the bottom of this. Right. And I'm going to spoil this book a little because I have to in order to talk about what I thought was the big swing. It honestly felt pretty standard. Right. Like, you're kind of like, well, what was it? It's all her point of view.
- [90:39]
Sarah McLean
Sure.
- [90:39]
Jennifer Prokop
Turns out that Morgan meddled and the next morning was like, you took advantage of her. Her mom just left and was so heartbroken. How dare you? What kind of person would do that? And sort of talks him into the idea that he was in the wrong. And so he's a little bit like, I can't believe you left and you never. We weren't friends anymore. After I did everything to preserve our friendship. After I took the blame. Right. And she's like, you idiot. Now here's the part, Sarah, where I truly was shocked. I'm not going to lie to you. They both have a. Other people in their lives.
- [91:18]
Sarah McLean
Yeah.
- [91:18]
Jennifer Prokop
And they. They cheat, they get together and they sleep with each other before either of them. Well, certainly before she breaks up with her boyfriend. And I was like, God damn. And I think part of the reason was because it really felt like A believable. Like, I had bottled all of my feelings up. And then when I realized and I actually. It was really interesting. Like, Jasmine, when she kind of realizes what happened is like, am I a monster? Because I didn't believe him. He was my best friend. Why was I so, like, right. Like, he sort of has to interrogate. Why didn't I try harder? And it was really interesting. So anyway, all these bottled up feelings essentially come really. Like, it's just 10 years barreling.
- [92:07]
Sarah McLean
Interview.
- [92:07]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes. And in the bed. And it felt believable to me. And I think part of the reason it then worked is she is then honest with the boyfriend about what happened. And it's painful. And it is painful to read her essentially kind of telling him what happened.
- [92:26]
Sarah McLean
Confess.
- [92:26]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, confess. And to have this man who you don't really know, but he's a good guy. It's not like he deserved this. It's not like something. And I feel like sometimes, often others.
- [92:35]
Sarah McLean
Take the easy way out and they're like, he was terrible. He deserved it. Matter.
- [92:41]
Jennifer Prokop
No, that is not what happens here. He is great and she broke his heart. But she finally is admitting the truth about how she really feels about Tyler. And I honestly was pretty impressed by the. I don't know, it. It had a premise and it didn't. It didn't pull its punches at all.
- [93:01]
Sarah McLean
Yeah.
- [93:02]
Jennifer Prokop
And so I was like, wow. I will read more from this author. That was make me hate you by Candy Steiner.
- [93:07]
Sarah McLean
Nice.
- [93:08]
Jennifer Prokop
So, yeah, I did find some good ones.
- [93:11]
Sarah McLean
Listen, there are a lot of good second chance romances out there. We didn't even scratch the surface of historicals.
- [93:17]
Jennifer Prokop
No, I mean, I know.
- [93:19]
Sarah McLean
I often think that it would be fun after we do an episode like this to like, do the continuum. Like, maybe we should add this to our. To the faded mates collections department. Like, after every episode. We do, like, here's the continuum of, like, the craziest second chance to the, like, softest that we love, you know, because obviously There is also Mr. Vivisection in here. The second chance. Just.
- [93:53]
Jennifer Prokop
You're like, how.
- [93:55]
Sarah McLean
Listen, somebody was talking about that book on. On Instagram the other day, and I sent you the screenshot. So this is everybody. This is a book from iad. What is it? Demon from the Dark. No, that's the one that you like. Dark.
- [94:07]
Jennifer Prokop
I can picture the COVID Desire. No, wait. Stop talking. Stop making words. Sarah. Let me think about it. Dreams of a dark warrior.
- [94:16]
Sarah McLean
Yes, dreams. I knew it was a D. Dreams of a dark warrior where the hero is a berserker. And like, they just. They're so faded that they just like find each other in every time after lifetime.
- [94:28]
Jennifer Prokop
And it's. That's hot. Woof.
- [94:30]
Sarah McLean
It begins a little bit and then the rest of it is just like wild. And also he vivisects her over the course of this series and it's a ride, everyone. I wouldn't start with this book. No know, but it is an interesting. Like, if you read the whole series in order. But yesterday or this week, somebody was talking about it online and they wrote Mr. Vivisection. More like Mr. Vivisection.
- [94:58]
Jennifer Prokop
You were so mad. You're like, I can't believe we didn't think of that.
- [95:01]
Sarah McLean
How do we not come up with this?
- [95:03]
Jennifer Prokop
Wow.
- [95:04]
Sarah McLean
So credit where credit is due. Well done, everyone.
- [95:06]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, well, and I do, I think, like, in some ways I will say I would rather it be real fucking over the top dramatic. Right. Then make it terrible then. Yeah, like it.
- [95:19]
Sarah McLean
I mean, I think the problem is this also runs and then we have to go, this is like the longest episode. But this also runs up against this view of romance at this point where.
- [95:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Like.
- [95:34]
Sarah McLean
Well, if he does something really bad, like, if it's really bad, then she shouldn't forgive him.
- [95:43]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, but she should go.
- [95:44]
Sarah McLean
And it's like, well, yeah, but also this is romance novels. So, like, yeah, he vivisected her, but she's fine now.
- [95:52]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, I think it's also, I will say this is one of those ones where you're like, well, I would never forgive that. Well, you are not the character. Right.
- [96:00]
Sarah McLean
Well, there is that.
- [96:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [96:02]
Sarah McLean
And I just think also, like, we have to be willing to acknowledge that, like, these books are not like Roman. They're not like relationship guides. No, please don't ever read a Mlan novel and go, yeah, this is. This is the ideal.
- [96:16]
Jennifer Prokop
Let me get on this. This plan.
- [96:22]
Sarah McLean
You want, like, you want a relationship. That would be the most boring book you could ever find.
- [96:28]
Jennifer Prokop
You know what?
- [96:29]
Sarah McLean
That is my hope for you.
- [96:30]
Jennifer Prokop
It's a nice time, everybody.
- [96:32]
Sarah McLean
Anyway, I'm Sarah Mlan. I'm here with my friend J. Gen Prokop. We are fated mates. You can listen to us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us online@thetamates.net where you can find all of the books we talk about in every episode by clicking on show notes@thetamates.net. while you're there, click on the collections department and go and find a bunch of very fun recommended read lists from real people, no algorithms involved, about books that they were where people have collected just like books about mustaches. Tara DeWitt is on there, for example. Or like books about vivisection. I don't think there is one because there's one. How many could there possibly be?
- [97:17]
Jennifer Prokop
I don't want to actually know the answer to that, everyone.
- [97:19]
Sarah McLean
So yeah, don't tell us.
- [97:21]
Jennifer Prokop
Vivisection.
- [97:22]
Sarah McLean
Anyway, so you can find all that information there. You can also follow us online at Blue sky sky threads and Instagram. And don't forget to come join us in St. Louis for Faded Mates Live. Tickets are at faded mates.net live or if you're anywhere else, sort of east of St. Louis. I might be near you on tour for these summer storms. Join me@Sarah McLean.net tour. I will sign your books. I will have faith. Ready to make stickers. It will be a fun time. And if you can't, join me. I do have a book coming out in July on the 8th and I hope you'll download it, read it, love it, etc.
- [98:05]
Jennifer Prokop
Pre order now wherever books are sold.
- [98:08]
Sarah McLean
Pre order now wherever books are sold. And there's a special romance cover that comes with the original cover from the ripped bodice links and show notes.
- [98:15]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, listen, everybody. Sorry, I hate present tense. But leaky, you all love it and don't care, so you can ignore me. Just fast forward over that.
- [98:22]
Sarah McLean
Just yell. It's fine. Just yell into the void at Jen. That's all I'm doing, All right? That's what all the authors are doing.
- [98:29]
Jennifer Prokop
They don't care and you shouldn't.
- [98:32]
Sarah McLean
All right? Goodbye, friends. We love you.
- [98:44]
Jennifer Prokop
Sa.