← Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
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- [00:00]
Pamela Sanderson
Every day of our lives are surrounded by other Native people. We're working for Native issues. We're, you know, educating people on Native issues. There's a lot of people who never come in contact to Native people other than, you know, whatever their random neighbor or these historical stereotypes. And so I really wanted to write stories about contemporary Native people doing what they do, like preserving culture, preserving community, promoting their community, dealing with problems that you have. How am I going to fund my nonprofit? How am I going to pay my, you know, find a place to live when I don't have very much money? How do I pay off my student loans? Like, so, trying to figure out how to tell stories about people who. Especially with. With Crooked Rock, because it's a urban community that. Finding your community when you're not in your home place.
- [00:52]
Sarah MacLean
So this week, we've got this very cool Trailblazer. I know.
- [00:57]
Jennifer Prokopf
I'm so excited.
- [00:58]
Sarah MacLean
So, everybody, the way the Trailblazer series works, for those of you who are new. Many years ago, we decided. Jen and I sort of looked around, and we said, somebody should really be taking the oral history of romance. And who would that be? Who should be doing this?
- [01:14]
Jennifer Prokopf
Who should be doing this?
- [01:15]
Sarah MacLean
And we said it to each other. Ooh, for about a year. And then we were like, oh, no.
- [01:20]
Jennifer Prokopf
I guess that we can do it.
- [01:22]
Sarah MacLean
We're voluntelling ourselves to do this. Well, first of all, welcome, everyone, to Fated mates. I'm Sarah MacLaine. I read romance novels, and I write them.
- [01:32]
Jennifer Prokopf
And I'm Jennifer Prokopf, a romance reader and editor.
- [01:35]
Sarah MacLean
And when we made this decision to start collecting the kind of oral history of romance, we were like, we're going to try to collect as many of the early voices that really built the house of romance as possible. And so we made this big list. And you've been with us through a lot of these interviews. You know, we've talked to everyone from, you know, Nora Roberts and Sandra Brown to the. To Jude Devereaux, and we've talked to Beverly Jenkins and Brenda Jackson and to EE Ottoman and to Radcliffe and Vincent Virga. And we've really tried to make this kind of big, expansive list of all of the people. And we have thought a lot about, like, is it possible to find the first? Now, of course, in romance, it's not possible to find the first in a lot of ways, because in many way, we're talking about people who've chosen pen names, who are writing under names that are not their own, who are writing outside their identity. But we're doing Our best to find the first. And Pamela Sanderson has been on our list for a very long time.
- [02:39]
Jennifer Prokopf
Yes.
- [02:40]
Sarah MacLean
Pamela writes urban Indian romance. Her series is called the Crooked Rock series, and it's all set in a city. And all of the books are about Native people together creating community. The first book is called Heartbeat Braves. It's terrific, and we're so excited to have her today.
- [03:01]
Jennifer Prokopf
It is really remarkable in some ways to think about the way that romance writers approach, like, getting stories about themselves and their communities into the hands of readers.
- [03:13]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah. One of the things that I thought I found really powerful was, like, her talking about. She's literally out there, like, pressing the book into hands of, you know, young women who she believes, like, will find them enjoyable. Before we start, though, I do just want to say a couple of episodes ago, we talked to Julia Whelan about the audiobook of my book, these Summer Storms, and how there is a reference in these summer storms to the. To the land once being the home of the Narragansett Indians. And we talked in that episode, we were talking about pronunciation and language and said we had had difficulty finding the pronunciation, the verbal pronunciation or the audible pronunciation of a particular word from the Narragansett tribe. The Narragansett Indians come from the Algonquin family of. Of Native people. And in that episode, I referred to it as, like, a. A language that hadn't been spoken in several generations. And I'm so grateful because Vanessa, on our Discord, who is part of a tribe, that Algonquin community, told us that Algonquin languages are still being spoken and now being spoken again. She referenced this as these languages have been sleeping, and the Indian nations that have had these sleeping languages are waking them up again.
- [04:43]
Jennifer Prokopf
I love it.
- [04:44]
Sarah MacLean
She said she's not sure about whether or not these languages are always actually available to the public. So it may be a question that, like, we just couldn't find it in that way. But she wanted to underscore that they do have programs now in places where the Narragansett Indian Nation exists and lives to revitalize this language. So I just wanted. I wanna say, first of all, thank you to Vanessa for making sure that I knew that. And I wanted to just say it here, too, that this is something that I've just learned, and I wanted to share it with all of you, and thanks for the discord. That's how we learn stuff.
- [05:21]
Jennifer Prokopf
Yeah, well, and we'd said, like, we'll do it for the next episode. And then I was like, and here's the Next episod. What we're going to be doing today, as you all know, is we will transition in a second to running the audio. And then at the end we'll have a little bit of like wrap up with the two of us just sort of like kind of talking a little bit about the things we heard and what we are interested in. And we hope that you will check out the Crooked Rock series from Pamela Sanderson, which is a really great read.
- [05:50]
Sarah MacLean
Here we go. So we are so excited to have you, Pamela Sanderson. Thank you for joining us.
- [05:59]
Pamela Sanderson
Thanks for having me. I'm very excited.
- [06:01]
Sarah MacLean
Well, I will tell the story that you've been on our list for years to reach out to. And when I finally sent the email, you wrote back right away and you said, oh, I know the podcast. I'm a member of the Patreon, which was crazy and so fun. And I immediately texted Jen in all caps, Jennifer, which is what I do when I have something exciting to say.
- [06:27]
Jennifer Prokopf
I always say, what did I do now?
- [06:31]
Pamela Sanderson
So yeah, I'm a little bit new to the podcast. So I have a friend who works in like science related and I work in law related. And so she sent me the romance law and romance science. That was when I kind of more started subscribing and really following. But actually the very first episode I ever heard was the Jessica one. Oh yeah, I know. It was New Year's Eve. It was so awesome. And I don't know how I found that, but it was. I was like at my mom's and doing work and listening to this and just howling.
- [07:04]
Sarah MacLean
That was a really fun one. But we are so excited because we've been doing trailblazer interviews for a long time and we've been doing a lot of work trying to place the early voices in genre. And so in some cases that's really easy. Like we can say like, okay, you know, who started, you know, the genre or who wrote the first sports romance or whatever. But in this case we are so excited because we believe that you are, if not the first one of the first native authors writing native characters in contemporary romance. Would you agree that you might be first?
- [07:46]
Pamela Sanderson
It kind of feels like that, yeah. Cause I remember when I first started cause I was trying to kind of like, who do I want to model myself after? And I'm googling or you know, putting in into Amazon, like, okay, Native American. And the things that were coming back were really terrible. Yeah. And so I was, I was like, really? Like really? So then I felt kind of excited about it. Because I thought, okay, well, at least if I'm putting myself out there, it's something that I don't have to worry about who I'm competing against in, like, I'm doing something different.
- [08:18]
Sarah MacLean
So would you talk a little bit about your relationship to romance? Prior to that, how did you come to romance? Were you a reader?
- [08:25]
Pamela Sanderson
Yes, I will, actually. I just want to, like, just for people who care about this kind of stuff. I am an enrolled citizen of the Karuk tribe, that our tribe is a federally recognized tribe in Northwest California on the Klamath River. And I was not raised in my tradition, but I have lifetime social and cultural contacts with my community. I go there almost every year of my entire life. My mom was there. My sister spends time there. I have a huge extended family there. And then in my professional life, I also. I work with tribes for the last 30 years.
- [08:59]
Jennifer Prokopf
So is there like a. I don't know, like, a history in, like. Like, when you think about, like, Native American literature, like, writ large, is there a space for, like, romance or love stories in it that's kind of obviously different than, like, when we think of, like, genre romance? Like, when you came to writing the, you know, the Heartbeat Brave books, like, did you think about that in. In, like, a larger context?
- [09:23]
Pamela Sanderson
I don't know. Maybe this answers your question. So when I very first started thinking about writing, I. And looking at data, you know, Louise Erdrich, looking at these different writers, and Scott Momaday. Not that I'm comparing myself with them, but just, like, I felt like I have to tell, like, native people write important, serious stories. And that was a lot. Like, it took, like, a kind of a way. Roundabout way of thinking of why. Like, why aren't there stories like this? Like, why. Why do they have to only be serious stories? Can't there be fun happily ever after? I mean, I feel like in my stories, they do deal with issues, but they also, you know, things work out at the end. The way we. Why we come to romance.
- [10:05]
Sarah MacLean
Let's take a step back. Let's go to, like, young Pam.
- [10:09]
Pamela Sanderson
So I for sure think, like, really that little girl with the prince and the Saving the princess and living happily. Like, that imprinted on me from the beginning. Everything I read. It's like, are people gonna get together and be happy at the end? I'm really invested in that. But for romance, I feel like. Like, I was trying to look back, and the author name I remember is Joanna Lindsay. But when I was looking up the titles, they were all Kathleen Woodowa's. So Those two writers, I read a lot and then I think I read. I read some category and I read. I was a huge reader. Even like my mom was a elementary school teacher and a school librarian and she had a reader and she. As fast as she could, I would read stuff. She was giving me stuff. I read horror, I read a big sci fi and fantasy fan. A little bit of mysteries, a little bit of suspense, anything popular. I always like to read. For a while, I read every single Stephen King book. I loved Anne Rice. So like early, early reading, like 80s reading stuff. When I was first thinking about writing romance, those are the kinds of things I was reading.
- [11:20]
Jennifer Prokopf
Were you a writer too, as a young person?
- [11:23]
Pamela Sanderson
Yeah, I wrote lots of little stories. I know I wrote when I was very little. I wanted to write a book about a girl and her horse, which I think is like her story. And then I'm trying to think when I. I think one of the first things I tried to write was the romance. And you used to. So like 80s, you would send away for their guidelines and then they send you this big packet and it would be like word count. And you know, our readers want sensuous stories and you need like these, like by page 60, they need to be been banging three or four times. And so like, that's just kind of how I started. But I was, you know, I was like, really timid and I just like, didn't know how to finish things. I knew how to start things, but I feel like that's kind of common writer thing. It's fun. It's fun at the beginning. It's easy.
- [12:15]
Sarah MacLean
So what brought you to writing, to actually finishing a book?
- [12:24]
Pamela Sanderson
So I moved from Southern California to Pacific Northwest in the early 90s, and I'd always wanted to write. And I had stories and things, but nothing ever finished. And I was like, okay, you have no money, you have no friends. There will never be a better time for you to buckle and do this. And so I wrote, I actually did complete a novel. It was not a romance. I was really into the Hollywood Sunset Strip hair band scene, like glam bands. And so I wrote a book about a band that wanted to be famous in Hollywood. And that was the one I finished. I know. I listened to Jeanne Lynn talking about, like, I'm sure I had that UCLA extension romance class, that catalog that circled in my pile. You know, it's like, I didn't have confidence, didn't have any money. I would go, you know, did all the homework, learned how to do it. You'd go to the library, this big book called LMP Literary Marketplace. Find agents, figure out what they want. What do they want? You know, query with chapters. Query synopsis. Query, query with a complete manuscript, and then go home, make copies, do envelopes. You had to give them an envelope to mail it back to you. And I did the same thing with Jeannie. I said, well, I won't give up till I get 100 rejections.
- [13:44]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, my gosh.
- [13:46]
Pamela Sanderson
I gave up at 87.
- [13:49]
Sarah MacLean
And this was. This was the rock. The rocker, the glam rock book. 87. Well, 88 could have been the one.
- [14:00]
Pamela Sanderson
It was just so demoralizing, awful and expensive.
- [14:05]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, that's an expensive endeavor.
- [14:08]
Pamela Sanderson
Big time suck. And, you know, and you just Monday, put it all in the mail, and by Wednesday, they'd be coming back, you know, and you could just picture this intern in the mailroom, ripping them open, shoving them in, putting them back. I've actually tried to quit writing numerous times, and it never takes. So I didn't. I'm very persistent.
- [14:24]
Malik
Same.
- [14:25]
Pamela Sanderson
I'm still very persistent.
- [14:26]
Jennifer Prokopf
It's deep in there.
- [14:28]
Pamela Sanderson
So by that time, I was up here, and then I did a screenwriting. There's a super fun screenwriting teacher up here. And I did screenwriting for a while, and that was super fun, too, but the same thing. You go this writer's conference, you could go and pitch your screenplay. And I did a little class, and. And I'm a very timid person. It was really terrifying for me, but I was like, I'm having to put my stuff out there. And I remember you had to pay extra to do the pitching. And I was sitting across from a guy, and I could tell he was hungover and he was looking at his phone.
- [15:01]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, no.
- [15:02]
Jamie
Right.
- [15:02]
Jennifer Prokopf
Why did I pay for this?
- [15:05]
Pamela Sanderson
How is this going to be better if I even get a break?
- [15:09]
Sarah MacLean
This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Audacious Machine, creative producers of the World Gone Wrong podcast. A fictional show. A fictional chat show about friendship at the end of the world.
- [15:24]
Jennifer Prokopf
So the end of the world. The apocalyptic times we're living through can be a little stressful for everyone. And so Malik and Jamie, who are the two hosts of our show, are just like two friends who have a cozy, really fun idea to just, like, sort of talk about. What if we could fictionalize almost our anxieties, things we worry about by coming up with really, like, fabulously funny topics and then like, sort of bantering back and forth about, like, what it is that's going to happen? So, for example, what Do I do if my ex boyfriend gets taken over by an alien body snatcher? But I like him better now. How worried should I be about sewer alligators reading maps in downtown Chicago? Me personally, not at all. But maybe the rest of you, you don't know.
- [16:10]
Sarah MacLean
You should listen.
- [16:11]
Jennifer Prokopf
Exactly. Should I change my office hours to accommodate the vampire student in my class? So the whole idea is almost like, you know, if the world was throwing even weirder and weirder ideas and topics and things that you. How would you manage this? In like a logical fashion. Right. And living through the apocalypse is really hard, but it is easier with friends.
- [16:32]
Sarah MacLean
And with humor can confirm. If you would like to listen to World Gone Wrong, you can do that wherever you listen to podcasts, including the app that you are on right now. The show comes out every other Tuesday and you can find more information@audacious machinecreative.com if your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken right there to find more information. And if you stay tuned after this week's episode, you'll get a little taste of World Gone Wrong. Thanks to Audacious Machine Creative for sponsoring this week's episode. And so during all of this time, are you still reading romance? Is romance still sort of a part of you're. Are you reading romance at this point?
- [17:23]
Pamela Sanderson
Yeah, I've always read there was kind of ups and downs, but I yeah. So I trying to write screenplays. I'm reading a little bit more screenplays. Yeah. Yeah. And then I did in 2008, I applied for a speculative fiction writing workshop called Clarine west, which I got into. And it is six weeks, 18 people picked to live in the house. You all you do is talk about writing and write and critique writing. And we had six different instructors. Instructors. It was amazing. Other people cook for you. I didn't have to, you know, I'm not at home. I don't have to clean. I don't have to all I'm take care of the family or the house of just writing. It was amazing.
- [18:05]
Jennifer Prokopf
I am really. I don't know if people know what Clarion west is, but when I first found out about it, I think the first thing I thought was I just deeply wished like romance had something like that. Like, imagine if There was like six weeks where we could take 18 people who are like I just want to write the best romances I can and have this intensive and for people listening, Adriana Herrera and at steamy Litcon along with Mel, who runs that I don't remember her last name. I'm sorry. Savage does something. Yeah. Does Romancing the Craft, which is like a one day kind of big workshop. But Clarion is a really fascinating model and isn't it. But does it partner with like a university? I mean it's just, it has to be a. Maybe UCSD maybe. I'm not sure.
- [18:54]
Pamela Sanderson
But there are at least at one point there were three Clarion. So the one that I did was in Seattle and it's a nonprofit and I think they, I don't think they were directly affiliated with University of Washington, but I think there may have been a little bit of, I don't know, help or something. But it's just, it was so. It was immersive and they talk about business of writing and business of submitting and working with it. Like it was really comprehensive. But that workshop, like I came out of there finally with confidence like, oh no, I. I can do this and I can take critique and I can give critique and I. And so I was focusing on writing short speculative fiction for. I actually still do some of that. But at some point or from that community because I had my community of my spec fiction writers, my classmates, I started learning a lot about self publishing and that was kind of where I went back to romance again. And so I started. I can't remember. I had, I guess Twilight kind of figures in this because I had a friend who is not a reader who loved Twilight and she said, oh, I read this other book that you should read if you like Twilight, which is actually not even a paranormal. It was called on the island by Tracy Garvis Graves.
- [20:13]
Sarah MacLean
Oh yeah, yeah, we've talked about that book.
- [20:16]
Jennifer Prokopf
Laurens Lauren Billings from Christina. Lauren talked about it, loves it.
- [20:22]
Sarah MacLean
That's the one with the. It's like age. Reverse age. It's not reverse age gap. But he's young and she's old and they're trapped on an island. Is that right?
- [20:30]
Pamela Sanderson
Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's great. It's great. And so then that sort of, you know, and then I got on Twitter and started, you know, reading about different writer, you know, Courtney Milan and Serena Bowen and just. And you could buy cheap books.
- [20:49]
Jennifer Prokopf
Well, and that's it. Right. Like 2009 was when I got my first Kindle and I was a pretty early adopter. All that is right around then.
- [20:57]
Pamela Sanderson
And so that was when I kind of everything stepped up and I started reading, you know, and just like fascinated like how you could and are also sometimes getting stuck with like how did I get up this. I Got one book, and it was like they were police officers and they hated each other. But then somehow they were in wetsuits and they were doing something in the ocean. Then they had to go into, like, a cabin, and then they were ripping each other's wetsuits off. And I'm like, what is this?
- [21:25]
Jennifer Prokopf
Somehow they were in wetsuits.
- [21:26]
Sarah MacLean
I think I'll write this.
- [21:30]
Pamela Sanderson
So I had a friend who told me she was writing a romance. I've always wanted to do that. She's like, yes, just do it. Just do it. And so I did. The first draft was like a NaNoWriMo. Like, I just had two characters I was really into. I just got really into Major League Soccer. And so it was like a woman with a soccer player. And. And then as soon as I finished it, then I knew, like, I'm going to write a contemporary Native romance. And I kind of had already started blocking out the ideas of how I wanted to do that.
- [22:01]
Jennifer Prokopf
So tell us about the series. And then, like, sort of like, what were. Like, what was your goal? Like, I was like, what. What do you want a Pamela Sanderson romance to, like, kind of look like or be like.
- [22:11]
Pamela Sanderson
So this is, like, I remind my colleague this all the time. Like, every day of our lives, we're surrounded by other Native people. We're working for Native issues. We're, you know, educating people on Native issues. There's a lot of people who never come in contact to Native people other than, you know, whatever their random neighbor or these historical stereotypes. And so I really wanted to write stories about contemporary Native people doing what they do, like, preserving culture, preserving community, promoting their community. Dealing with problems that you have that aren't just always, you know, like, the not. I mean, I guess everything is rooted in history. But. But how am I going to fund my nonprofit? How am I going to find a place to live? And I don't have very much money. How do I pay off my student loans? So trying to figure out how to tell stories about people who. Especially with Crooked Rock, because it's a urban community, that finding your community when you're not in your home place and how that would look and how they all helped each other.
- [23:17]
Jennifer Prokopf
So the Crooked Rock center is actually kind of funded by lots of different tribes. Is up where you live up in Northern California? Is that, like, sort of the case? Is that based on, like, a real idea that, like, there are places where there are confluences, like, so many tribal affiliations, like, living in a city that they wouldn't know each other? Or is that Something that you. I mean, I. I'm sorry to say, I just don't know. Right. So I was. But I was really interested in the idea that then, like, the different. Right. Like, so the beginning of the first book, like, Linda is sort of the. She has great ideas, but is disorganized, and she's kind of like, you know, and the new board is essentially pressuring her. Like, we aren't getting the. We aren't getting the, like, results we wanted. Right. And I was really interested in sort of the, like, how real that felt for any nonprofit. But also I was kind of curious if it was, you know, based on kind of, like, how hard it is to have, like, an urban affiliation group where there's so many different tribal affiliations.
- [24:20]
Pamela Sanderson
So, yeah, I don't know the exact number off the top of my head, but, like, I think Oregon has about 18, maybe 18 federally recognized tribes, and I think Washington might have 22, 28. But so, like, Seattle area, there's urban community center centers. Portland, there's also kind of. There's also community centers. So there was a movement. I should have done my homework before we started. There's a movement for the US Government kind of wanted thinking that what would save native people would be assimilation and relocating. Intentionally relocating. They relocated people to Chicago. And so there are urban communities in those areas, too. Chicago, I think, Minneapolis. So, yeah, there is a Portland area kind of community center that I was sort of. I mean, I didn't, like, go and study them, but that was sort of the idea of what I was doing when I invented Crooked Rock.
- [25:23]
Jennifer Prokopf
The other thing that I thought was really interesting was how young. In the first book, Henry and Raeanne are, like, young, like, just out of college. But by the last book, like, Arnie and Linda then are in their 30s. And I found myself thinking, like, I don't know if I can think of a lot of, like, mixed age group kind of series either. Was that intentional or just the way it kind of goes?
- [25:50]
Pamela Sanderson
No, I just said because Arnie and Linda had some history. And so, like, time passed for them, and then also for them just to be a little bit more established in what they were doing, where some of the younger characters were just kind of, like, new to it, figuring it out, trying to figure out what, like, what's my place in this? I want to create this urban community, but I don't really know if I have skills or how to do it.
- [26:14]
Sarah MacLean
So I'm always interested in, like, the actual process. Were you thinking at the time, like, okay, I'm going to try and traditionally publish this. What was the thought process once it was finished?
- [26:27]
Pamela Sanderson
So it never even occurred to me to try to try to publish it because I had already gone through all this agony with screenwriting and with the other glam band novel and even short fiction. You know, you submit and then you wait six weeks and they get a rejection. Then you see. And I just like, I don't. I've finished it. I want to get it out there. And since I had already tried self publishing, I knew that's how I was going to do it. And so. And then I had mapped out, well, I shouldn't map out as a strong. I had ideas like a one sentence idea for four books. And so that was the idea that it would, it would be four books trying to tell the story. The story about the nonprofit center was supposed to be just like a little thread holding them together. And that really got away from me. And I feel like they probably don't work super great as standalones because of that. But yeah, I know there was a point where I thought why didn't I at least try? But I was raring to go. And so I just.
- [27:30]
Sarah MacLean
And so can you talk about the response to it? Because I feel like I read Heartbeat Braves. I had to have been right around when it came out.
- [27:39]
Pamela Sanderson
Yeah, like 2016.
- [27:41]
Sarah MacLean
And I can't remember how I knew that it existed, but I just did. So can you talk about the response? I mean, obviously I exclusively ingest romance content, so that's how I knew about it. But can you talk about response and what people thought of the book? What you heard from readers?
- [28:03]
Pamela Sanderson
I was gonna say Sarah, you heard about it because you're Sarah, you're like out there, like you're looking under rocks.
- [28:11]
Sarah MacLean
I know, I'm like, I have nothing to read.
- [28:12]
Jennifer Prokopf
What can I find?
- [28:15]
Pamela Sanderson
Self publishing is really, really terrible. I mean, it was just. There were times where I was like, you know what? Because I like did homework and was hustling and paying for promotions and you know, querying like, can you review my book? And you know, when they. People do it for their blogs. So just trying, you know, think outside the box. I contacted numerous native organizations in Portland. I will bring you some paperback books if you think anyone in your organization would like these. It was, I, at one point I said it was like just standing on your porch and saying, hey everyone, I got a book. Want to read it? It was really also very demoralizing. So I really didn't get a huge response. I mean if the people that I heard from, like. Like, my mom is in our community, our native community. And she would say, oh, I was at weaving, and some of the girls were asking about your books. And so, like, that was really gratifying. But I feel like. Like during November or like when people, you know, Native. Native American awareness or whatever the month is called. Heritage. Yeah. Heritage month or book bingo. Like, in that context, I would hear from people, but just in sort of general. Like, this is a interesting area of romance I haven't seen before. There really. Wasn't that.
- [29:38]
Sarah MacLean
One of the things that Jen and I have been talking about sort of as we were preparing to talk to you, was this. It really. It feels like there isn't a very large community of Native authors writing in romance. Do you. But maybe we're wrong about that. Do you feel like the. The community has grown? Do you feel like there is. Were you finding other writers right at the very beginning?
- [30:01]
Pamela Sanderson
No, not really. So. So my support group was my Clarion west group. And, you know, everybody. People read romance, even if they're specific geeks. And so they were kind of.
- [30:12]
Sarah MacLean
They don't admit it.
- [30:14]
Jennifer Prokopf
The truth sign. Like, listen, I've suspected it all along.
- [30:20]
Pamela Sanderson
So they. My friends there were beta readers and encouraging and spreading the word and that kind of thing. So that was kind of my. That was my support group prior to that. My screenwriting. I had a screenwriting group, too. And that was kind of a good support group to keep me going. And. But I did very early, before. Actually, before that, there was a Native writers group that I was involved with in the 90s, and that was like, really more about community. There was a little bit of mentorship and stuff. That was with the hair. Headbanging bangers. And we called them Headbanger novel.
- [30:56]
Jennifer Prokopf
The Glamrock.
- [30:57]
Pamela Sanderson
Yeah. But I didn't. I kind of lost that connection. And so really, now I don't have a community of Native writers. I know. I know Danica Neva, and I have not. It's in my tbr. But I'm like, oh, gay young writers coming up. I love to see it.
- [31:16]
Jennifer Prokopf
Yeah. I mean, and traditionally published. But I think, you know, she's very open on social media. I think about how the difficulties which seem the same kind of what you described of, you know, sort of platforming stories by native authors that don't traffic in some of those stereotypes that were so pervasive in the genre back at the beginning and might still be. This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Blue Box Press, publishers of The Reluctant Flirt by Jennifer.
- [31:52]
Sarah MacLean
Probst so Sierra Lorde is having a terrible time of it. Jen. Her husband has had an affair and she just needs to escape their small town of the Outer Banks. She heads to New York City for just like one weekend of being away from it all and getting a little tipsy in a bar with a charming stranger seems like the perfect way to forget your troubles.
- [32:15]
Jennifer Prokopf
It is.
- [32:16]
Sarah MacLean
No names, no promises. Just one night between adults to escape reality and regain her confidence. Because her husband might have had an affair, but this man she is spending an evening with has only eyes for her. The next morning, though, she wakes up, the sun's shining, and she is mortified. She takes off, goes home and is like, at least I'll never have to face that man again. Gets back to the Outer Banks, and life is good. Except there are whispers of a hotshot developer coming in to bulldoze the whole small town out there, including Sierra's beloved shop. And this guy is obviously a trash person. So when he wanders in, Jen, that's who he is.
- [33:04]
Jennifer Prokopf
I don't have to guess, Sarah. I know. And he's there to do some nailing.
- [33:09]
Sarah MacLean
Okay, so in comes Cain Masterson. He's got a name now. And Sierra's gonna have to forget that. He's also got sort of magic hands and a great mouth because now she hates his frickin mouth. She won't let him demolish her special town. She'll let him demolish something else special, though.
- [33:29]
Jennifer Prokopf
All right, so anyways, you can tell we are delighted by this entire plot and think you will be. So if you would like to check out the Reluctant Flirt, it is available in ebook and in print. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Blue Box Press and Jennifer Probst for sponsoring this week's episode. Do you still read romance? Do you still think about writing romance? Or do you feel like, you know, you wrote your four books and that was a complete set and you have like, what's next in terms of what you think of as your place in the genre?
- [34:11]
Pamela Sanderson
Okay, so first of all, yes, I still read romance and my TBR is out of control. And you two ladies have contributed to that problem.
- [34:19]
Sarah MacLean
You're welcome.
- [34:21]
Pamela Sanderson
I'm like, I'm on a very strict diet, which means I instead of buying every book I want, I only book, like, buy every third book I want. So I always joke. I'm like, I can't finish all these books. Even if I was in prison. But so I know I'm not done. And so I actually had already. I had outlined in some chapters for a fifth book about Audra. She was the attorney in those books. So I mean it was, it was really hard. It's really hard to have a full time job and you know, run a household and write books. So I wrote five books in about five years and do all the promotion and like figure it all out myself. And it just paid someone to do like the proofreading and copy editing. Paid someone to make those covers. So I really never thought I'm going to get rich and famous doing this. But I thought, well, it'll be easy to break even. I don't even think I've broken even yet now. And so I was just like, I don't know if I can. Like I kind of lost a little bit of heart for it. And then I was trying to write other things and just really struggling with finishing non romance things. And then we had a pandemic. And like everybody, I was like, I have all this time, I'm gonna get all this writing done. And then all of a sudden like the whole day went by and I just stared out the window.
- [35:43]
Sarah MacLean
What is wrong with me?
- [35:44]
Pamela Sanderson
So it was almost, it was kind of validating to hear that lots of people kind of dealt with that. So in the last couple years I've been. It's the same thing. Like I have so many partials. I have a couple, like I'm going to try a more suspense angle and got a couple of those. And I'm like, I'm going to try a paranormal. I got that. And then so I'm like, I'm buckled in now. I got a contemporary, it's set in Northwest California and I don't want to jinx it. So I'm just going to say that for now I'm making good progress. Good, I can finish it. I will try to query for a traditional this time. I don't know, but self publishing is just rugged.
- [36:27]
Jennifer Prokopf
It sounds like you have a community of romance readers. Like, do you have a community of romance people?
- [36:34]
Pamela Sanderson
A small community, but yes, I do. And I feel like you guys are my community.
- [36:39]
Sarah MacLean
We are very happy.
- [36:41]
Pamela Sanderson
Your voice is in my ear every week.
- [36:46]
Sarah MacLean
So can you talk about that piece? That sort of community? The people who have pushed you or continue to sort of inspire you to do the work? Because I know how isolating the writing piece is and I know how. And I mean, and I have experienced in a tiny way how difficult it is to make space in self publishing. So who are the writers who you look to as, like, these are the people who I am inspired by, who are pushing me, who, you know, I want to be in conversation with as a writer.
- [37:27]
Pamela Sanderson
Oh, wow. You know, I like so many different. Like, I like to have a little bit of everything or just to like, I'm always interested in the stuff that's really popular, even if it's not for me.
- [37:38]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [37:38]
Pamela Sanderson
So that's always kind of fun to see. That Butcher and Blackbird was a little bit. It was a lot for me, but the writing was so good.
- [37:47]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, I felt the same way. It was like I tore through that book.
- [37:54]
Pamela Sanderson
Yeah. That's why as soon as I finished, I had to send it to my friend. I'm like, read this. We have to talk about it. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, so, like, most recently, my big love, Ali Hazelwood, I really love her books and I'm really just fascinated about her writing style because I feel like sometimes I've read chapters, I'm like, you know, not much has happened and I do not want to put this down. And so it's like, how do you do that? And then I love Testa Dare. Those Spindle Cove books, they're just. Oh, yeah, charming. It's like, okay, how do you do that? How do you determine? Oh, Alexis hall, those books are so funny. And just the voice, like, okay, how do you do it? So, like that, like, I do study a lot of things that I like. Like, how did. How do you do that? How does this work? What is this person doing? And why does it work for me?
- [38:43]
Jennifer Prokopf
And why does it work for other readers? I mean, I think that's always really fascinating. As someone who's been reading romance for a long time, like, do you think the genre has changed?
- [38:54]
Pamela Sanderson
Yeah, no. What I think is so, so interesting now is just so how many just off the wall things that people come up with that are popular and so, like, you know, I tried like a monster romance and definitely not for me, but I was interesting. Like, okay, all right. That's what this is about. So I like that there's a space for whatever it is, you know, your robot vampire, whatever thruffle with, you know, like, I just like that they. There's so many different, including, you know, sort of standard. There's. The thing that I'm writing now is a little bit different, I hope. And I keep thinking, you can't really do this in romance. I'm like, says who? You can do anything.
- [39:37]
Jennifer Prokopf
You do anything.
- [39:38]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah. As long as they end up together. Right.
- [39:42]
Jennifer Prokopf
You know, that rule, like the genre rule of romance is just like kind of one and so specific. Right. One rule to rule them all the hea. When you think about genres that are maybe more expansive or don't. Kind of aren't guided by that stridency, maybe like, you know, speculative fiction. Do you have to put on a different writing hat when you're writing something? Like. Or is it just all up there? Like, how do you think of yourself as a writer when you switch genres?
- [40:14]
Pamela Sanderson
Oh, that's an interesting question. Yeah, I think it's just all up there. I don't know. Like, I kind of have to get in the zone. But yeah, I. I created this sort of this casino and space, and then I've set different stories there. And so I. And I don't know when I'm thinking, like, I'm thinking like, okay, what. What are ideas? Like, what would a bartender in space? Like, what could be a problem? But I like, so, yeah, but I haven't. I like, somehow it doesn't really cross with romance. So, yeah, I don't. It's just like that I'm in a different space and a different process. So I don't know. Yeah. Mindset. There you go.
- [40:51]
Jennifer Prokopf
I mean, I bet that bartender is really looking for love.
- [40:54]
Sarah MacLean
I was gonna say, it's like everybody loves a bartender that's like, oh, not.
- [41:00]
Pamela Sanderson
My short fiction, but all my long fiction. Cause I was trying to write non romance. But they always would end up. There'd always be two people that were starting to make eyes at each other. I'm like, okay, why is this happening? I am not planning that. So the two things are that and all my stories end up having elders somehow. I will intentionally say, this one isn't going to have an elder. And then next thing you know, here's an elder that comes in and takes over part of the story.
- [41:25]
Sarah MacLean
And why do you think that is? What is the core story that you're sort of coming back to there?
- [41:32]
Pamela Sanderson
Well, I don't know. I guess kind of in our tradition, your elders and I just always seem like they're really funny people that have a lot of, you know, knowledge and cultural knowledge, and they just think that they're always funny and they just somehow, you know, you always somehow need to help them or, you know, it's sort of more generational living. And so they just sneak in there and the next thing you know, they're running away with it.
- [41:58]
Sarah MacLean
Well, and it speaks to Jen's observation about your books. Really do Span, multiple. Like, the ages are really a span. And that is rare.
- [42:07]
Jennifer Prokopf
Wait, I want to go back to that. Because in the first book, and I'm sorry, I can't remember her name, the elder who, like, left and she, you know, they have to, like, pull up the rugs in her house so she doesn't trip on them with her walker. And at one point, Raayann says something.
- [42:21]
Pamela Sanderson
Like, yeah, Margie is the elder.
- [42:24]
Jennifer Prokopf
Yeah, Margie says something like, you know, sometimes I just look at them and think, like, oh, they must have been all young and hot for each other or horny or something. And Margie kind of clumps back in and is like, we still are. Like, we still like to get. And it really is like sort of a really funny great moment.
- [42:40]
Sarah MacLean
It has a real, like, Susan Elizabeth Phillips vibe that, like, yeah, we're still.
- [42:45]
Jennifer Prokopf
Hot for each other. Yeah. And Natalie Kenya books too. Right. Like, so it's true that I really do enjoy those characters in a romance. I think the other thing they almost always offer is like a kind of like, insight into whatever it is young people are going through. Like a. Like, sort of. I've learned this lesson myself, right? Like some wisdom about, like, how to, you know, how to get yourself out of this hot water you're in with this man you are so hot for.
- [43:12]
Pamela Sanderson
Right. Yes.
- [43:14]
Sarah MacLean
I want to talk. I sort of edged up on core story, but it's a conversation that we've had with all of our trailblazers since we had Jane Ann Krentz on because she sort of blew our minds with so much and this idea that we come back. And I'm. I'm especially curious with you because you write in multiple genres. Is there a story you feel you keep coming back to? Is there just something that you're just called to in your writing again and again?
- [43:49]
Pamela Sanderson
I feel like it's keep coming back to this community. Like, no matter what happens, I always can come back to this. There's a community for me somewhere. And I mean, this is actually. It's kind of funny because I heard my niece say this once, but with our. My have a very close extended family. And it's like no matter where I go, no matter what I do, no matter what happens, it's like the safety net I know is always there. And so in my stories, I feel like there's always that same kind of thing. It's finding that community or we found family. I love found family stories where you know that you're safe and people get you and you don't have to explain yourself. You're just a part of it. And I feel. I feel like that's what I'm doing.
- [44:32]
Jennifer Prokopf
Well, and also there's, like, tension in that, too. Right. So part of the reason in the first book, like, the whole setup is that, like, Henry's uncle is on the board. Arnie and his sort of, like, mom is meddling and wants him to have a job and. Right. I mean, so, like, it's both supportive and wonderful when you need it, but can also be, I think. Right. Like, the books, from what I remember, like, effectively also show that sometimes it's a little overwhelming and people are nosy or whatever else comes with that. Right. It's not just kind of the good parts, it's also the friction parts.
- [45:08]
Pamela Sanderson
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
- [45:11]
Sarah MacLean
This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Kylie Scott, author of Wildflowers, An End of the World Romance.
- [45:19]
Jennifer Prokopf
Dean Wallace is like a grizzled, grumpy ex military guy, and he has his eye on his sunshiny neighbor across the street, Astrid Hardy. And so when a deadly virus threatens to collapse society, he decides, like, okay, people are gonna think that's paranoid theory nonsense, but he thinks the best thing to do is, like, kidnap her to his basement so that he can save her. And this is something where it turns out that he's right. So they watch kind of the downfall of the world play out online. They're hearing gunshots and smelling smoke, and everything seems too realistic. So, you know, Law and Order is gone. But, like, will love remain? Well, they're gonna have to find out. They can't stay in the basement forever. They're gonna have to get out and see the world as it is. And it turns out that maybe Astrid and Dean with, like, a good, good helping of Kylie Scott, like, really awesome humor and the way that she approaches her, even, like, the worst scenarios are going to get her characters into, like, a fun place with each other is going to. They're going to have to figure out how to. How to find love in this awful new world that they have inherited.
- [46:36]
Sarah MacLean
Well, if you love the idea of an end of the world romance, then Wildflowers just might be for you. You can read it right now in print or in ebook. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now and be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Kylie Scott, as always, for sponsoring this week's episode. I know that you spoke at the very beginning about how when you came into writing, you sort of thought, well, why? Why Can't Native people write, you know, just joyful, like, fun books? And I wonder if you could talk because I actually this morning I read. I didn't realize that you was on your website and I didn't realize that you had written a prequel, not your mascot. And I mean, what a fun. First of all, I read it in like three minutes. I was so excited. But I wonder if you could talk about the politics of it all because, I mean, obviously there are politics. All of us are writing politics all the time. Small p. And so. But I wonder if you could talk about just like the weight. Is there a weight of being the first? Is there a. How do you think about that? How do you reckon with it as a writer?
- [47:55]
Pamela Sanderson
So when I did this, that native. When I joined that native writers group in the 90s, I remember listening to one of the older writers talk about, like, when you're a native writer, you're a political writer. And I really had to think about that because I don't. I thought, I'm just a dummy. What can. I don't know what that means. But yeah, I need to put that NASCAR story into the ebook. And that's just like, you know, on my long list of things. But I actually felt like I had gone too hard on that story. And then I read some stories. I read some stories about people who did Nick mascot protests and I was like, I didn't go hard enough. Those are really. People can be awful. Right?
- [48:34]
Sarah MacLean
It's set at a college. Just for frame of reference for everybody. This prequel is set at college because it's. The characters from one of the books in the series have a history, and this is a taste of their history. And the heroine is the head of a native students alliance, NASA. And there is a mascot at this college that they're protesting.
- [49:04]
Pamela Sanderson
Yeah. So they get there. Yeah. They get their student group, they make signs and they go. They. Yeah, that's. That story sets up a lot for that book too. Yeah. So I did have some think about the stories I wanted to tell. Like, how do you. Can you. Can you tell stories with the kind of the more serious heavy duty stuff without making it so that the reader, you know, hates their life? Like, can you make a. You know, I don't want to use the word educational, but I mean, could you make an educational story that's actually fun and entertaining? Because I actually love that too, when a book teaches me something that I didn't even know I wanted to learn. So that. That was intentional. And I don't know. I I mean, I don't know the weight of it. I just was trying to do what I did. I wasn't, I didn't know how, where out in the world it was going to go. So I didn't worry about that as much as just trying to do it in a way that was respectful and as real as, you know, I mean, you want to dramatize it and everything. But that also is like in genuine, in a way that was genuine.
- [50:21]
Jennifer Prokopf
I love genre. I mean, obviously we wouldn't be here if we didn't. And it seems like you also love genre, but like genres also can be very like formulaic. When you think about yourself as a writer and a reader, what is the draw of like genre? And it seems like you're like kind of a multi genre reader and writer as opposed to like, is it just because literary fiction is like kind of too heavy?
- [50:46]
Pamela Sanderson
I like literary fiction too. I love, I love every, you know, I mean, I love everything. Like, I don't read a lot of memoir, I don't read a lot of nonfiction. So I can't really say I love everything.
- [50:55]
Jennifer Prokopf
But fiction in general.
- [50:58]
Pamela Sanderson
Yeah, fiction, popular things that I usually try to check out the award winners, major awards or just, you know, word of mouth. People say, oh my gosh, this, give me this. Like A Theory of Bastards by Audrey Schulman. I think it is. A friend of mine gave it to me and I was like, why don't more people know about this book? It's speculative, it's, it's, it's good, it's interesting. It's very different. It's about these scientists studying. Are they too fancy? I don't know. I'm not, I'm not an apes. And, and things happen. It's good.
- [51:38]
Jennifer Prokopf
Things happen. I think that's my things happen. I think that's really, for me, the big thing.
- [51:43]
Sarah MacLean
Right?
- [51:44]
Jennifer Prokopf
Yeah, things happen.
- [51:47]
Sarah MacLean
We always ask, we always end the trailblazer conversations with the same two questions. So I guess the first one is what is the book that you think that you hear the most from readers about and why do you think that is?
- [52:04]
Pamela Sanderson
Well, it'd probably be the first one because that's the one that most people have read. But I would love for it to be the fourth one because I feel like I really threw out a lot of threads and I managed to put them all together in the last one and set it up and pay it off. So I'm like, I feel like anyone who didn't make it through all four, you really should try because it Pays off.
- [52:25]
Jennifer Prokopf
One of my favorite things about Arnie is how he keeps saying, like, I don't say this that often, but you were right. Right.
- [52:34]
Sarah MacLean
So that is Crooked Rock Braves. Crooked Rock Braves is the fourth one, but. And you think people need to read the whole series in order to really. Hey, listen, it's a ride. It's a very fun time, everybody. You're gonna have a great time.
- [52:49]
Pamela Sanderson
Because the Crooked Rock thread kind of affects everything that happens through the whole thing. But. But yeah, there's a lot of good. Yeah, I think it's worth reading all four. But the things that mostly just the things that meant the most to me that I heard was, like, from my niece and from, like my mom said, young women in our community. Just that, that they found a book about them and that that was really meaningful to them and that that made it all worth it. But it's also really hard when I, you know, it takes a year for me to do this and then, you know, it comes out a week later, hey, when's the next one? Like, yeah.
- [53:27]
Sarah MacLean
So what would you say to a young woman out there, you know, thinking about writing these kinds of stories?
- [53:37]
Pamela Sanderson
Oh, yes, please. We need more own voices. And there's. I don't. I. I'm sure I'm going to bung this up. I think there's over 400 federally recognized tribes in Alaska native villages. There's a lot of stories out there, so we can never run out of stories from native voices. And I don't make a pitch for TV shows, but there's a show called north of north on Netflix that's set in an Inuit village and feels very authentic to me. It's super cute and funny. So if that would be another way to consume some authentic native voices.
- [54:16]
Jennifer Prokopf
This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Renee Idia, author of Park Avenue.
- [54:22]
Sarah MacLean
Jia Song is destined for greatness. She is the daughter of Korean bodega owners in Queens and grew up promising herself that someday she'd get herself to Fifth Avenue. And now she is there. Fifth Avenue luxury is in her reach. She has made junior partner at a prestigious law firm in Manhattan. She has great friends. She has a great life. She's on the list for the Birkin bag of her dreams. Everything is coming up roses. So when her boss asks her to sit in on the hush hush family implosion of a high level client, the billionaire K Beauty empire park family, Gia accepts without hesitation and realizes that this is going to be an incredibly messy situation. The patriarch of the park family is filing for divorce from his dying wife. Their three children cannot stop sniping at each other, and the family fortune and legacy is under threat because this is going to turn out to be the absolute worst possible kind of scandal. Gia has been hired to set everything right to make sure that the scandal doesn't implode the family. And she has one month to do it. So this book takes you on a ride from high wealth New York through across the world. There are private jets and yachts and a really amazing sort of road trippy feel of this dysfunctional billionaire behaving badly kind of vibe. So, you know, I love it. It's a book about secrets and lies and how everything is going to work itself out. And there's a romance in there too, for those of you who, like me, refuse to read a book that doesn't have one.
- [56:13]
Jennifer Prokopf
So if you are interested in checking out this Park Avenue delight, including Birkin bags, what's going to happen? You should check out the book in print, ebook or audio. If your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the thanks to Renee idea for sponsoring this week's episode. What about other native authors who are writing outside of romance or who are writing like, is it. Who writes horror?
- [56:46]
Sarah MacLean
Is it Stephen?
- [56:47]
Pamela Sanderson
Stephen Graham Jones?
- [56:49]
Jennifer Prokopf
Oh, everybody talks about that book, about the deer, and I just don't. I mean, so are there other native authors you think people might enjoy that maybe aren't writing romance, but that are writing books that you have found really well?
- [57:02]
Pamela Sanderson
Louise Erdrich obviously is amazing. Like, seems like every year I'm like, I'm like two or three years behind now.
- [57:09]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, yeah.
- [57:10]
Pamela Sanderson
Who else have I read recently? Yeah, I should have prepared for this. I'm drawing a blank. Look at my bookshelf.
- [57:17]
Jennifer Prokopf
That's okay. Sometimes we ask questions and we don't tell people in advance.
- [57:21]
Sarah MacLean
Sometimes. And literally people ask us all the time, what should I read?
- [57:24]
Pamela Sanderson
And.
- [57:24]
Sarah MacLean
And I've never read a book, so it's fine.
- [57:27]
Pamela Sanderson
Rebecca Roanhorse, she's really good. Yeah, I like her a lot too. Yes. I can't miss you. And then Danica Neva, even though I haven't read it, we all need to read it. Own voices. Yeah.
- [57:43]
Sarah MacLean
Buy the books you want to see in the world, everyone.
- [57:45]
Jennifer Prokopf
Yeah, the new book, her new book is called Love is a War Song, and I think it comes out in mid July, so probably right around when this comes out.
- [57:53]
Pamela Sanderson
Oh, yeah. All right. I'm gonna keep my eye out for my. Because I don't have enough books to read.
- [58:00]
Sarah MacLean
But in the meantime, you can read all of Pamela Sanderson's books right now. They're all available wherever you get your books.
- [58:10]
Pamela Sanderson
Wherever you get your books. Library two and.
- [58:14]
Jennifer Prokopf
Yeah, start at book one, I think. Yes. They are very interconnected.
- [58:19]
Sarah MacLean
Start at that. Great.
- [58:20]
Jennifer Prokopf
Oh, at the prequel story.
- [58:23]
Sarah MacLean
It's terrific.
- [58:24]
Jennifer Prokopf
The mascot.
- [58:25]
Pamela Sanderson
Yeah, it's on my website.
- [58:28]
Sarah MacLean
We'll put links and everything in show notes. But, Pam, thank you so much for joining us and for talking to us today. It means so much to us whenever we have somebody on who is unique and interesting and game and into the genre. And these conversations are so valuable and I'm so grateful to you.
- [58:50]
Pamela Sanderson
Well. And thank you. I appreciate being here. It's nice to meet you. And I know. I wish your tour was coming to the West Coast.
- [58:57]
Jennifer Prokopf
Me too.
- [58:58]
Pamela Sanderson
I will. I'm sure our paths will cross someday.
- [59:01]
Sarah MacLean
I really will make sure. We'll make sure it happens someday for sure.
- [59:06]
Pamela Sanderson
All right.
- [59:07]
Jennifer Prokopf
Definitely. Thank you.
- [59:08]
Sarah MacLean
Thanks so much, Anderson.
- [59:10]
Pamela Sanderson
Thank you.
- [59:13]
Sarah MacLean
What a great person.
- [59:16]
Jennifer Prokopf
Yeah, it was great.
- [59:17]
Sarah MacLean
What a fun conversation. I am so happy that we were able to do that, that we were able to make that happen.
- [59:25]
Jennifer Prokopf
Yeah, no, me too.
- [59:26]
Sarah MacLean
One of the things I kept thinking about was. And this is like, so obvious. One of the things I kept thinking about was, like, the fact that we can really only name Pamela and Danika.
- [59:38]
Pamela Sanderson
And.
- [59:41]
Sarah MacLean
I just think. And as she said at the very end, like, there are 400, more than 400 recognized tribes. And I think that the fact that we don't have more stories from writers in these communities, because I know there are writers in these communities, is. Is something that we. It's our responsibility to. To fix. So like I said, then, you know, buy the books you want to see in the world, everyone.
- [60:15]
Jennifer Prokopf
Yeah, well, and I think I was really interested. So one of the. And I like mentioned it during the conversation and I'm sure I've mentioned it on the podcast before. When you're teaching, I mean, when you're reading for yourself, obviously. Right. Like, I just want any story that feels like fresh and new and different. Like, I really was truly. I'd sort of forgotten that. Like. Like I. One of the things I really loved about this series is that it's kind of multi generational. Right. And in. Not just in the characters and who is in their families, but in like the love stories themselves. But I think as romance readers, I'm hoping you can look back at these old historicals and be like, well, these are. This is not okay, Right.
- [60:56]
Sarah MacLean
Like, so when we talk about these old historicals, everybody, we're talking about, like, Savage Thunder, like, books where, like, Fabio has been given a black wig. And, you know, and it is very clearly a nod to racism and a kind of a real. A look at Native people as, like.
- [61:25]
Jennifer Prokopf
Stereotypes in every way.
- [61:27]
Sarah MacLean
Like the stereotyping of Native people.
- [61:29]
Jennifer Prokopf
Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the other parts about it is because these larger largely appeared in historical. So I mentioned this woman named Debbie Reese who keeps a. A blog about Native American representation in children's literature. And one of the things she says sort of over and over again is if you only talk about Native people as if they're all gone, right? Like, Native people are still here. And so the other problem, along with the terrible sort of stereotypes in these books, is that they're all historical.
- [61:59]
Pamela Sanderson
Right.
- [62:00]
Jennifer Prokopf
Like, that's just something that was part of our history. But, like, you know, we don't have to worry Native people now because, like, it just was something that, you know, in the past. And so having contemporary romance with Native written by Native people with Native characters also seems, like, important in a kind of a different way for saying, like, here's who we are now, not just, like, here's who you thought we were then.
- [62:25]
Sarah MacLean
I mean, I will say, I do just want to name that. Like, there is a rash of. Or there were a rash of, like. Like, Native characters, often, like, half Native in the 80s and 90s in contemporaries, especially in, like, a lot of those category romances were. And they are over on the reread. And I will say, like, as a kid, I ate those books up. And on the reread, they all feel just very racist. So, yeah, read Pamela's series. It's really fun. You're gonna love the, you know, the big cast of characters, you know, read. Danica Marcella Bell is somebody who I've talked about on the podcast recently. And if you are a Native person writing Native romance out there, please reach out to us. We wanna read your books and shout about them.
- [63:25]
Jennifer Prokopf
I'm always really interested in hearing people, like, hearing trailblazers stories about themselves as readers or writers. I don't know, I kind of forget because I'm constantly surrounded by, like, you know, readers. And, like, right, you're a reader, I'm a reader. It's all I do to, like, hear how powerful it is for people to say, like, oh, yeah, I was a kid, I was a reader, and I went to the library and, you know, like, you know, Pamela, like, almost every trailblazer has sort of mentioned the importance of Kathleen Woodowit. The foundational parts of the genre are still with the people who are writing books and talking about them now. And that's one thing I don't think I would have predicted as we've done this series.
- [64:09]
Sarah MacLean
I agree. I mean, I often. Almost every time we hear that from a trailblazer, I think to myself, we really should read Flame in the Flower, like, for a deep dive. But I fear that people will perceive it as us endorsing well, and I.
- [64:28]
Jennifer Prokopf
Think that's, like, part of the thing that's, like, really hard about any kind of genre fiction. Right. And this is also the thing that I think about a lot. Again, like, the Jane Ann Krentz episode really framed a lot of my thinking.
- [64:42]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [64:43]
Jennifer Prokopf
Like, if genre is carrying the myth of, like, whoever you are, is a culture right now, then of course. Right. Like, genre is also going to really reflect back some of our most, you know, the hardest things about the worst of us. And I do think that's, like, a really interesting question. And listen, I loved when Pamela was like, I thought it was this author, but it was this author. It's like, story of my life.
- [65:10]
Pamela Sanderson
Exactly.
- [65:11]
Sarah MacLean
But listen, she was right. Those. When she was referencing those, you know, the books that. That. The historicals that had those titles like.
- [65:19]
Jennifer Prokopf
Like, it could have been anybody back then.
- [65:22]
Sarah MacLean
I, you know, I was really moved by her talking about just writing in multiple genres, like, really just like, searching for. What did she say, like, stuff happens or, like. Yeah, Like, I think. I think that's. It's so obvious to me that, like, she is somebody who's just, like, in love with the work of it, like.
- [65:42]
Pamela Sanderson
The craft of it.
- [65:43]
Sarah MacLean
And it doesn't. It's romance, it's speculative, it's screenplays, whatever it is.
- [65:48]
Pamela Sanderson
It's just.
- [65:48]
Sarah MacLean
She wants to tell stories about stuff happening, and that's really cool. And it's always nice to hear from a writer who feels that way.
- [65:59]
Jennifer Prokopf
One of my favorite questions is about kind of core story. Like, what is the story someone's telling? And having. It was really interesting to hear her talk about. Like, I wasn't gonna include an elder, but they sort of appeared on page anyway. You know, the idea that some things are truly just so buil into your system as a writer that they're gonna appear no matter what. And I. That's like a. You know, to sort of go into a book and say, I'm not gonna do this thing, and then it happens anyway, I think is really powerful.
- [66:27]
Sarah MacLean
But it's interesting because you and I have taught. We've had episodes on grandparents, right? Like, on, like, those sort of elders in romance. And now I'm. I will always, whenever I think about that, make sure that Pamela is in the mix on that. Because I think, yeah, it's real. You know, that's very clear in her books. I also. I loved your point, Jen, about just, like, generational cross. Generational storytelling. Like, it. You know, and as you said it, I hadn't thought of it myself. And as you said it, I thought, God, there really are not. I'm not sure I could name. I mean, like, I mentioned Susan because I think Susan does that really particular thing where she's got like.
- [67:09]
Jennifer Prokopf
Like elder secondary love story.
- [67:11]
Sarah MacLean
Right. But. And often the secondary love story is with, like, older people. Like, there are. There is usually, like, an older person on page in a Susan novel who's, like, doing a different thing. But, like, I'm not sure I can think of another author who has written multiple characters in the same universe at different ages and as primary. As primary love story. Right.
- [67:34]
Jennifer Prokopf
Well, and it. So in this case, like, in the first book, Henry's uncle is Arne. And they're closer in age than you'd think. Like maybe 10 or, I think 10 or 12 years apart. Right. So Henry's 24 and, you know, Arnie's in his mid-30s. But it's very clear from the book that, like, he considers Arnie is, like, young enough sometimes for them to have, like, common, like, you know, things. But, you know, Arnie is his uncle, his sister's his mom's brother. And he has to sort of, like, listen to him in a certain way and respect him in a certain way. This is a man who looks great in a suitable. It's really funny. And I think that, like, that so then. And it was funny. Cause when you first. And so I went back and reread Heartbeat Braids, which is the first one, and it was sort of like, oh, yeah. Like, I remember when I first read it thinking, oh, like, they'll be. Linda and Arnie will be, like the background couple in this book. Cause they're, like, older, right? And then. No, they get their own book in book four. And I remember thinking, like, this is actually kind of cool. They're not just relegated to being, like, secondary characters. Like, they're their own characters. But it was. I did think like that. I don't know that I've read that either. So it did really strike me as being kind of notable in some way.
- [68:53]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [68:54]
Jennifer Prokopf
Listen, these are great reads and I hope that everybody both, you know, takes a chance to check out Pamela's series, which is like a great read for whatever you're doing this summer. But also Danika Nava. Pamela's new book, Love is a War Song comes out next week on July 22nd. So if you're inspired by this episode and loved hearing Pamela talk about her books, then you can check those out. But also go ahead and pre order. Get ready for reading Danica's book, which comes out next week, and her first book which came out a year or two ago, was the Truth According to Ember.
- [69:36]
Sarah MacLean
Thank you all so much for listening to us always. These Trailblazers episodes are some of our very favorites. If you love hearing from a first or love hearing about the history of romance and want to learn more, you can go to fatedmates.nettrailblazers and find all of the Trailblazer episodes that we've ever done. We are asked all the time like do we have favorites? And truly like every time I think, oh that's my favorite, oh no, that's my favorite. And then it's just every one of them is my favorite. So head over there, do that. If there's somebody else in the world who you think we should be interviewing, another trailblazer you think we've we are missing, shoot us a message and let us know. You can find us online@betamates.net where you can find show notes. If you click on Episodes, you'll get a full list of our episodes. If you click on collection, you'll see a collection of collected books. A collection of collections collected by people. Real people, not AI. This is not an algorithm. It's real people, real listeners, real people in the world, authors, etc, building groups of books that we think that you'll love. So head over there to find your next great read. You can also find us online at Blue Sky, Instagram and Threads. And I think we're on Tumblr too still. So if you ever want to reach out and let us know about an episode or a person you wish that we were in contact with, please do. If you just love talking about romance as much as we love talking about romance, you can do that all the time, 24 hours a day on our Discord. It's a private space for fademates listeners to join it. You have to join our Patreon so you can do that@thetamates.net Patreon I am on tour for two more days so I hope I'll see you tonight in Atlanta or tomorrow in Indiana. You can find information that@fademates.net. no, you can find information on that@Sarah McLean.net torture.
- [71:48]
Jennifer Prokopf
And then.
- [71:49]
Jamie
I don't know.
- [71:49]
Sarah MacLean
Jen, do you have anything going on this month?
- [71:53]
Jennifer Prokopf
No, I'm just reading.
- [71:54]
Sarah MacLean
Sarah.
- [71:54]
Jennifer Prokopf
Don't talk to me.
- [71:57]
Sarah MacLean
All right, don't talk to Jen. And stay tuned. After this week's episode, you'll get a little taste of World Gone Wrong.
- [72:08]
Malik
Thing is, it's not that hard.
- [72:10]
Jamie
Okay, but it's not straightforward either. The calendar isn't really.
- [72:13]
Malik
All you have to do is lie to a period track app one time and bam, there it is. Never caught by surprise again.
- [72:19]
Jamie
Oh, hey.
- [72:20]
Malik
Right. It's called a cycle for a reason. Not like it stops.
- [72:24]
Pamela Sanderson
Mmm.
- [72:24]
Jamie
Yet.
- [72:25]
Malik
Oh, no.
- [72:26]
Jamie
Yep.
- [72:26]
Malik
Although scientifically, how would that even.
- [72:29]
Jamie
How does anything happen these days? Ooh, are you recording?
- [72:32]
Malik
I am. Are you?
- [72:34]
Jamie
Hello, and welcome to episode one of World Gone Wrong with Malik and Jamie. I'm Malik. And this Jamie.
- [72:42]
Malik
I'm Jamie.
- [72:43]
Pamela Sanderson
Someone on the radio said something about the sun going out forever in a month or so, but we all knew the end was near. Nothing to be done from here. So I shake my head and off to bed I go.
- [73:01]
Jamie
So, like we said, this is World Gone Wrong and we are here to discuss and explain our ever changing reality in ways that inform and entertain you. You know, the listener who will hopefully exist at some point. Fingers crossed.
- [73:13]
Malik
My dad said he'd listen.
- [73:14]
Jamie
Ooh, then. Hello and welcome to Jamie's dad.
- [73:17]
Malik
Hi, dad.
- [73:18]
Pamela Sanderson
Ooh.
- [73:18]
Jamie
What if we narrow cast this? Did a whole episode just for your dad?
- [73:21]
Malik
Yeah, it'd be like it. Jokes, gardening tips, recipes for squash. I don't know how to hand mend something.
- [73:29]
Jamie
I need to know that.
- [73:29]
Malik
Yeah, listen, he's getting into it. Maybe next episode. So we are here.
- [73:34]
Jamie
Yes. I am your dashing Chicago correspondent and Jamie is your equally dashing co host, broadcasting all the way from scenic small town Colorado. How is it out there, Jamie?
- [73:44]
Pamela Sanderson
It's hot.
- [73:45]
Malik
Have you seen the news about.
- [73:47]
Jamie
Yeah. Are you guys okay? I mean, I assumed when you didn't answer the call, like screaming, but we are.
- [73:52]
Malik
And okay, answering your first question. It's weird.
- [73:55]
Jamie
Mm.
- [73:56]
Malik
Are you okay? How's Chicago?
- [73:59]
Jamie
Fine and weird.
- [74:01]
Malik
Yeah. So the show, I think we said we would look at the current moment, everything that's happening, and take it one catastrophe at a time. And today's episode, we were starting simple with werewolves.
- [74:14]
Jamie
Werewolves. But before we get into that, some quick background, like, who are these people in your ears right now?
- [74:20]
Malik
Oh, that makes Sense. Yeah.
- [74:21]
Jamie
We are two younger millennials, which is to say our world's been rushing down the drain, basically since we've been aware of it. When we first moved in together, we decided to throw a Halloween party. While we were choosing the music, we realized each of us had a playlist of upbeat tunes about the end of the world. And I think that outlook uniquely qualifies us to comment on everything happening now.
- [74:40]
Malik
Okay, two things. Never talk about that party again. And second, does that qualify us?
- [74:46]
Jamie
Have you heard the boomers try to make sense of this? We are experts compared to them. What else? We met on Craigslist, which sounds like medium sketchy.
- [74:54]
Malik
Only if you say it like that.
- [74:55]
Jamie
Yeah. We're roommates.
- [74:57]
Malik
Normally we're roommates.
- [74:59]
Jamie
Temporarily estranged roommates, once and future roommates roommates. But right now, the room in question.
- [75:05]
Malik
Is half the usual, maybe a third. There's a lot of west where I'm at.
- [75:09]
Jamie
Yeah. Last month, Jamie decided to go stay with family for a while for, you know, the unpleasantness.
- [75:15]
Malik
Now, that is a euphemism.
- [75:17]
Jamie
Okay, the great infuckening, in which all was mercilessly infuckened.
- [75:21]
Malik
Voice of a generation over here.
- [75:23]
Jamie
I'll take it. And this show is our little project to keep from going stir crazy and also to stay in touch despite the many cruel miles of American geography that seeks to part.
- [75:32]
Malik
For the record, my idea was a group chat.
- [75:35]
Jamie
Yeah, but this way I get to hear your dulcet tones and we get to share our thoughts with the world. The world of your dad. Plus, a group chat wouldn't be half as loud. We have a whole. We have a range of decibels to explore. We can whisper, we can shout, we can sing. Oh, that was good.
- [75:51]
Malik
Thank you.
- [75:52]
Jamie
That was an A.
- [75:54]
Pamela Sanderson
Sure.
- [75:56]
Malik
So what are we. What's the. Okay, what do we want to talk about?
- [76:00]
Jamie
I actually have an advice question for us.
- [76:03]
Malik
This is episode one. How do you even. Where did you get a question from?
- [76:08]
Jamie
I may have scraped Reddit for future episodes. Listeners, Jamie's dad, feel free to write in. We can anonymize you if something's embarrassing. We're here to help.
- [76:16]
Malik
Is that the name of the segment?
- [76:18]
Jamie
Ooh, yeah. Okay.
- [76:19]
Malik
Welcome to We're Here to Help, our first ever segment.
- [76:23]
Jamie
It's not hard to tell the world is unwell, but we are here to help. Ding.
- [76:29]
Malik
That was incredible. Did you write that ahead of time?
- [76:32]
Jamie
Oh, gosh, not at all. That was me living in the moment. So this is from R Dogs, which you'd think would be getting A lot more traffic since then.
- [76:41]
Malik
I think most of that is in new subreddits. R Diagnose me. That's a big one. R Near misses. R oh God. Oh God, oh God. Help.
- [76:49]
Jamie
Do we think these people are opening Reddit mid wolf attention attack?
- [76:51]
Malik
They really could be in shock.
- [76:53]
Jamie
Who wouldn't be? Jamie, if you'd like to do the honors.
- [76:56]
Malik
Cool. So my 5 year old dog Pepper got bitten last week. We took him to the vet and he's all patched up with minimal blood loss. A real roller coaster of an opening there. I told the vet it was a coyote just to be safe, and I think she believed me. But he's a Pekingese, so my main worry is that when he changes, he'll try getting into fights with me. Much bigger animals. He could really hurt himself. Any suggestions? Wow, okay.
- [77:25]
Jamie
That's a tough one. Right?
- [77:27]
Malik
Well, I think we've all had to brush up on how to evade werewolves in the past couple of weeks, but I haven't heard anything on how to protect a werewolf or dog wolf in this case.
- [77:36]
Jamie
Last week I would have said, hey, are we sure that a non human animal can even catch lycanthropy?
- [77:40]
Malik
Oh, he was so young, so innocent.
- [77:43]
Jamie
But then Bloomfield Hills happened.
- [77:45]
Malik
Bloomfield? Which one was that?
- [77:47]
Jamie
You didn't hear about this? It's all over the local news. Oh. So Bloomfield Hills, very rich suburb of Detroit. Some people out there have horses, not like cowboys, obviously, equestrians.
- [77:58]
Malik
A horse got bitten?
- [78:00]
Jamie
Yeah, it was bad. You don't always think about how big a horse is, how fast it can go. Then you're staring down a supercharged horsewolf hybrid that wants your blood. At first the people there thought they were safe because it was like in a paddock.
- [78:12]
Sarah MacLean
Oh.
- [78:13]
Malik
But obviously the horse wolf knocked it.
- [78:14]
Jamie
Down like so much wet cardboard. Even without the otherworldly strength, I think a normal wolf wolf could have gotten out. People just aren't prepared for that in the suburbs. What's been bitten in your side of the woods?
- [78:26]
Malik
We had a few bighorn sheep go wolf. They injured some hunters. Someone came back the next day and got them. Also, there was this raccoon in our yard last week, last full moon. At first my dad thought the raccoon had rabies. It was so aggressive. I mean, it could be have still been rabies.
- [78:44]
Jamie
Are you gonna tell me what this raccoon was doing or do I have to rely on my finely honed imagination?
- [78:48]
Malik
Dad said he saw it was definitely a raccoon. It had the tail, but he saw it Take down a wounded bat. Take down and then eat. So the upside is, no matter what, we don't have to contend with werebats again.
- [79:02]
Jamie
Yet.
- [79:03]
Pamela Sanderson
Yet.
- [79:04]
Malik
It was moving faster than an animal should be able to move. So he didn't get a great line of sight, but he thought it had had more of a snout than usual and longer legs, bigger teeth.
- [79:13]
Jamie
Ooh, your dad didn't get bit, did he?
- [79:14]
Malik
Oh, he stayed in the house. We both did. Even if it was just rabies, there's no way we're tangling with that. You know, I would have led with that if my dad had mysterious bite marks right now. Yeah, when I say fine, I mean fine.
- [79:28]
Jamie
Okay? Nobody on the planet is actually doing fine.
- [79:31]
Malik
You know what I mean? We grade on a curve.
- [79:33]
Jamie
I know.
- [79:34]
Malik
You have to trust me that things are, I don't know, adequate.
- [79:38]
Jamie
In that case, if nobody but the bat was hurt. Not to get pedantic. Yeah, were bat. The thought is that were actually means man. A Batman. Oh, wait, a Batman would actually be a big help right now.
- [79:50]
Malik
That depends on which run you're. You know what? Okay, we're not gonna get into that now.
- [79:54]
Jamie
Yeah, stakes are high. Oops. Stakes? Wait, stakes are vampires? That's not a pun. Big relief. Okay, so saving the life of Pepper the Pekingese.
- [80:01]
Malik
Well, the good thing is, is they've got time.
- [80:04]
Jamie
They've got.
- [80:05]
Malik
At the time of recording, we had a full moon a week ago. Assuming this was posted today, they've got about three weeks. Like I said, unlike werewolves themselves or pod people or anything else in that vein, the moon cycle doesn't sneak up on you.
- [80:19]
Jamie
Three weeks to do what?
- [80:20]
Malik
Get your dog fitted for an extra strength muzzle, Maybe. That sounds harsh, but it beats the alternatives.
- [80:26]
Jamie
So I have a creeping suspicion you don't know what a Pekingese is.
- [80:29]
Malik
Well, they're small, right? I'm not saying it'd be easy to find one that fits.
- [80:32]
Jamie
It's just, you know, Jamie, my sweet Jamie, what I need you to do right now is pause the show and Google image search one of these suckers.
- [80:40]
Malik
Okay, Hang on.
- [80:41]
Pamela Sanderson
I am. Oh.
- [80:44]
Sarah MacLean
Oh.
- [80:44]
Jamie
Yep.
- [80:46]
Malik
That is one flat, tiny little baby face.
- [80:49]
Jamie
And yeah, he'll have a snout once he changes, but I don't know how you'd find anything that would stay comfortable before and after. Plus, do we even know if. Okay, so a dog can get the bite and transform, but does that bite still. Does that still spread it?
- [81:02]
Malik
I don't know, but that is, like. Do not take that gamble.
- [81:04]
Jamie
Because, like, I'm not saying I'm not worried about this Pekingese attempting to start something with a bigger werewolf or even.
- [81:09]
Malik
Just an actual coyote or like a large cat.
- [81:12]
Jamie
I mean, these guys really are the size of a lunchbox. But my thing is, if a tiny dog wolf bites your ankle and that's enough to spread it, that feels maybe even more dangerous than a really big. Even the horse wolf, like a fanged, muscled horse charging at you with murder in its eyes, you clear the area. But people don't see a Pekingese and think run. It's like how more people die each year from falling flat screen TVs than shark attacks.
- [81:35]
Pamela Sanderson
Really?
- [81:35]
Jamie
Yeah. I forget the actual number, but I think it's around twice as many. We know to fear sharks. We think about those pointy, toothy killing machines and we go, maybe a pool instead. But there's no primal part of your brain whispering, hey, hey, that TV is heavier than it looks.
- [81:49]
Pamela Sanderson
Okay.
- [81:49]
Malik
In defense of TVs, sharks are also not that dangerous.
- [81:54]
Jamie
You know, in the time since you left, somehow I forgot you're a self appointed shark lawyer.
- [81:58]
Malik
I'm just saying.
- [81:59]
Jamie
Objection, you, Honor.
- [82:00]
Malik
I'm just saying sharks have tiny prehistoric brains and they approach the world teeth first. Because that's how they are made. Even if a shark tries to bite you, and it frankly is not a given that they will try to bite you, you can generally get out of it, but by swapping them on the nose.
- [82:14]
Jamie
Wait, wait, wait, wait. You're telling me that if a wild shark sunk its many gigantic teeth into your one fragile human body, you, Jamie, would be able to Thwop.
- [82:24]
Malik
You are so Shark Week pilled. If I'm a shark lawyer, you're a shark prosecutor.
- [82:31]
Jamie
Oh, Shark law. Court of Sharks. I would watch that show Take a Bite out of crime. Wait, that's McGruff the crime dog. That's. That's a separate issue. Okay, wait, sorry. Remember when we tried to explain about the whole cartoon trench coat snitch dog thing to Aditi?
- [82:45]
Malik
So, speaking of dogs, speaking of this poor terrified pet owner.
- [82:50]
Jamie
Right, right.
- [82:51]
Malik
There are two main problems. A, pepper gets hurt. B, pepper spreads lycanthropy, either to other animals or to humans in his circle. All of which is to say, I think step one is to just accept that once a month you have an indoor dog.
- [83:08]
Jamie
Wait, so to protect the neighborhood animals, we're locking the dog wolf in with a bunch of people? I don't want to be chased by a squirrel wolf or a deer wolf any more than you do. But like people, Jamie, first of all.
- [83:18]
Malik
If we want to minimize the spread. A bitten person knows how to take precautions and a bitten anything else does not.
- [83:26]
Jamie
So the dog owner surrenders to a lifetime of werewolfism. There's a joke here about people looking like they're pets, but I won't go there.
- [83:33]
Malik
Second of all, a Pekingese looks like it's about as big as a very large loaf of bread. All you have to do is lock it in whatever room you care about the least. No amount of wolf is going to change the fact that it can't reach the doorknob.
- [83:46]
Jamie
What if the questioner lives in a studio?
- [83:48]
Malik
Nobody with Pekingese money lacks multiple door.
- [83:51]
Jamie
Money doesn't mean they're spending it that way. Also, the dog could be a gift or from when they had more money. People come down in the world sometimes.
- [83:58]
Malik
Touche.
- [83:59]
Jamie
And even if you have a two bedroom that's still basically destroying a huge chunk of your living space, like 12 times a year.
- [84:04]
Malik
Everything at Pekingese height only. And you take your valuables out before I hear you.
- [84:09]
Jamie
But the floor.
- [84:10]
Malik
Yeah.
- [84:10]
Jamie
You are never ever getting your deposit back.
- [84:13]
Malik
Do you usually get your deposit back?
- [84:17]
Jamie
Point landlords. Ugh. Go figure. The one thing in the world that doesn't change. You know what else though?
- [84:22]
Malik
What?
- [84:23]
Jamie
We are assuming this little guy can't jump.
- [84:25]
Malik
Probably not.
- [84:26]
Pamela Sanderson
High.
- [84:26]
Malik
With those tiny little length, every inch.
- [84:29]
Jamie
He can gain increases the zone of destruction.
- [84:31]
Malik
There are drawbacks.
- [84:33]
Jamie
I think the solution is clear. You do you drug the dog.
- [84:36]
Sarah MacLean
Okay. You.
- [84:37]
Jennifer Prokopf
What?
- [84:38]
Jamie
I mean, according to what I've heard, that's already what the rich are doing when they get bitten, knock themselves out, wake up the next morning a little groggy. So you go back to the vet, talk your way into some supplies, and then every four weeks you have. You have a tiny snoring little dog wolf by the side of your bed. Safe and adorable.
- [84:54]
Malik
Talk your way into the vet giving you animal tranquilizers.
- [85:01]
Jamie
Yeah.
- [85:01]
Malik
Okay, Malik, what does that sound like?
- [85:05]
Jamie
It sounds very charming. Because the safety of you and anyone you live with is on the line.
- [85:11]
Malik
Flirt with the veterinarian? That's your plan? Do you also sweet talk them into describing the correct dosage for your dog?
- [85:18]
Jamie
Maybe it's more of a bribe.
- [85:20]
Malik
So we're relying on the vet being corrupt?
- [85:22]
Jamie
Hey, you've lived in Chicago for years. You know how it is. The fix is in.
- [85:26]
Malik
And if you get the one honest vet in town, keep in mind, what it's actually gonna sound like is not, oh, I'm protecting my living situation from the world's tiniest shapeshifter. It's gonna sound like you want to get high. High enough to knock out a Pekingese. A small dog.
- [85:44]
Pamela Sanderson
Hi.
- [85:45]
Jamie
Okay, wait. Compromise. We marry your plan with my plan.
- [85:50]
Malik
How?
- [85:50]
Jamie
I'm not saying it's a loving marriage. It's more of a marriage of convenience.
- [85:53]
Malik
Malik, what are the compromises?
- [85:56]
Jamie
I'll explain after this commercial break.
- [85:59]
Malik
Wait, wait. We have commercials?
- [86:02]
Pamela Sanderson
Okay.
- [86:03]
Malik
On episode one of this show. How is this even possible?
- [86:05]
Jamie
Allow me to explain during our commercial break.
- [86:08]
Pamela Sanderson
Ha, ha.
- [86:23]
Jamie
Hello again. And we're back with my brilliant solution. Jamie's plan merged with mine. Okay, so you go to the vet. You don't try to seduce them, and you don't try to slip them a crisp 20.
- [86:35]
Malik
You are only gonna bribe them with $20 for what? A dog's lifetime worth of tranquilizer?
- [86:40]
Jamie
I would leave room to bargain. If you start out high, they don't respect you.
- [86:44]
Malik
And you crave the respect of a vet craven enough to sell.
- [86:47]
Jamie
No, I crave the savings. Life is so expensive.
- [86:49]
Pamela Sanderson
Okay, right.
- [86:50]
Jamie
Keep in mind, you've gotta be able to afford to feed a pint sized wolf once a month. I really doubt he's gonna settle for kibble.
- [86:57]
Malik
Also, the therapy bills for you and everyone you live with.
- [86:59]
Jamie
Also that. So, okay, the compromise. You go back to the vet, who may be a wonderful person. I don't know why we keep smearing this imaginary stranger's name. You. Hey, I'm sorry, but my dog won't stop trying to bite at the spot you patched up.
- [87:12]
Pamela Sanderson
Oh, yeah.
- [87:15]
Jamie
You get a shame cone. You. And this is very key. You put the cone on the dog before he transforms and then you lock him in. See, this part is. It's still a problem because not everyone has multiple rooms, but you get where I'm going, you gain a layer of extra protection and your dog won't be able to chew through a door.
- [87:32]
Malik
That would be a lot of chewing. Hmm.
- [87:35]
Jamie
How much door could a wolfdog chaw if a wolfdog could chaw door?
- [87:38]
Malik
I guess even if it can't get through, it could gradually weaken the door. So not tonight, but six transformations from now.
- [87:45]
Jamie
That's right. A weredog is a pet for life. Don't get one now because it's trendy, folks. You're making a commitment to a whole lifestyle.
- [87:52]
Malik
Until scientists figure out how to reverse lycanthropy.
- [87:54]
Jamie
You think there's gonna be a cure.
- [87:56]
Malik
You don't.
- [87:56]
Jamie
How could you undo changing into a different animal every month just because I.
- [88:00]
Malik
Can'T that describe it doesn't mean it's impossible. I haven't read enough about quantum physics to truly understand it. But we still have all these particles.
- [88:07]
Jamie
There's faith in science and then there's science zealotry.
- [88:10]
Malik
Look, yeah, we don't really know. We don't know if there's a way to undo this. But given that we don't know, let's say it's a coin flip on a coin.
- [88:18]
Jamie
We can't see an invisible coin.
- [88:20]
Malik
Alright, what. What do we gain by acting like we're all doomed forever? Even if that's the answer, why live in that space right now when we don't have have to?
- [88:29]
Jamie
It'll save you the disappointment later.
- [88:31]
Malik
Is it worth living in fear? Shit, yeah.
- [88:34]
Jamie
No, no, no, no. I mean, I solved the door problem.
- [88:37]
Malik
You have?
- [88:38]
Jamie
You put a cone on the dog and then lock him in the bathroom. Even a studio generally has a bathroom door. He's less likely to claw up a tile floor. And what's he gonna do in there? Bite your toilet? Plus, when he feels the lupine need to mark the territory, that's a way easier mess to clean.
- [88:53]
Malik
I. I swear, I am not trying to pull holes in this, but do your bathroom doors lock from the outside?
- [89:00]
Jamie
You barricade the door.
- [89:01]
Malik
Barricade.
- [89:02]
Jamie
It worked in Les Mis.
- [89:03]
Malik
It did not work in Les Mis. That's like a huge part of Les Mis.
- [89:07]
Jamie
Wait, Jamie, remember, the door doesn't need to lock. Neither dogs nor wolves have hands.
- [89:12]
Malik
Oh, we forgot about paws. Okay, not our brightest memory.
- [89:18]
Jamie
In our defense, we're not working in our areas of expertise. Next advice column, I'll find someone whose problem involves werewolves and cooking. The Dewey Decimal System versus the Library of Congress. Women's hockey and the drama surrounding women's hockey.
- [89:32]
Malik
It's not my fault they keep marrying players from rival teams.
- [89:34]
Jamie
Or we can do one for me. Like help. I'm running from this wolf bear monster. And I also really need someone to analyze the themes in this stanza.
- [89:41]
Malik
Okay, show off. Writing, teaching, studying and performing your poetry. Swiss army knife.
- [89:46]
Jamie
A jack of several.
- [89:48]
Malik
Okay, so back to it. We shame, cone, pepper, put him in the bathroom and shut the door until it clicks. Did we just solve it?
- [89:57]
Jamie
There's only one problem.
- [89:59]
Pamela Sanderson
One.
- [89:59]
Malik
Okay, good. That was just one problem.
- [90:02]
Jamie
I think my sister said that dogs don't really like having those cones on. You know, it doesn't get to be called of shame if the wearer like actually has a good time.
- [90:09]
Malik
The dog might not like it, but if vets do it, then it can't actually be harmful. And I don't think any of us would like becoming a werewolf.
- [90:17]
Jamie
You're on team cone now.
- [90:18]
Malik
Team cone and team door.
- [90:20]
Jamie
You just, you post a sign over the knob so you don't forget not.
- [90:23]
Malik
To crack open the door behind which a furious loaf sized wolf is going on a rampage.
- [90:27]
Jamie
You don't even need a sign.
- [90:28]
Malik
But what, what if you have to use the bathroom at, you know, any point during the night?
- [90:34]
Jamie
You visit the all night diner across the street, buy a cup of coffee.
- [90:37]
Malik
Do you know any 24 hour places that are still open every night of the moon cycle these days? And what if they live in the suburbs or the middle of nowhere?
- [90:45]
Jamie
Yeah, right. Or any other place where you don't want to be out at night. Yeah, that's not ideal, I guess.
- [90:50]
Malik
You. You could have a designated bedpan.
- [90:54]
Jamie
Ugh, gross.
- [90:55]
Malik
That's your line in the sand.
- [90:57]
Jamie
I think it is. You know what else we're forgetting?
- [91:00]
Malik
What?
- [91:00]
Jamie
A dog isn't a person. You can kennel a dog. Kennels just put the dog in its cage for a night. You don't even have to tranquillize or cone him.
- [91:08]
Pamela Sanderson
Although.
- [91:09]
Jamie
What.
- [91:10]
Malik
How strong is your average dog cage? And how strong is your average dog wolf?
- [91:15]
Jamie
Are we talking about a dog wolf or are we talking about a fuzzy basketball with legs?
- [91:18]
Malik
I think we have to assume that even a normally defenseless animal can do a lot of damage if you give it preternatural strength. And angry wolf thoughts. That's why regular werewolves are dangerous in the first place, isn't it?
- [91:31]
Jamie
Did you see that video from Maine of that guy?
- [91:33]
Malik
Of course, of course. I do think it was probably staged.
- [91:36]
Jamie
Based on what?
- [91:37]
Malik
Oh, first of all, I do not think of TikTok as the home of serious journalism. It's the algorithm mathematically guessing what you're likely to stare at. And second, real special effects people have put out videos explaining how you can fake those visuals.
- [91:52]
Jamie
I hope you're right. Because the way he rips it in.
- [91:54]
Malik
Two, it could be a deep fake. It could be a clip from some obscure movie.
- [91:58]
Jamie
I think we both would have said the same thing about werewolves a few months ago. And look where we are now. Now look where we are. Literally. Look at the rest of it. Like all the what did I say before? The great befuckening.
- [92:09]
Malik
These are exactly the scenarios where misinformation spreads the fastest. Everyone's scared, and some people think they stand to gain from that. It's part of the human condition, unfortunately.
- [92:18]
Jamie
The look on his face though, that's.
- [92:20]
Malik
Why I think it's a movie. From what I've read, the lighting makes no sense for the time of day. Besides, who would film something like that and have the presence of mind to zoom in on his expression? You'd think a bystander would be way more worried about the claws and the, I don't know, collateral damage.
- [92:36]
Jamie
You think?
- [92:37]
Malik
Also, the sound quality is suspiciously good. No wind, no ambient noise. Yeah, it would be irresponsible of us to spread hysteria. Plus, we still owe the questioner response.
- [92:49]
Jamie
They're just some redditor. They're not gonna hear this.
- [92:52]
Malik
They might, I guess. Then I guess we need an answer.
- [92:56]
Jamie
Thank you.
- [92:57]
Pamela Sanderson
For what?
- [92:58]
Jamie
For providing this segue. Okay, so you do everything first. And I cannot believe we didn't mention this yet. You protect everyone else who lives there. You invest in some steel toed boots and leg armor.
- [93:09]
Malik
Leg armor?
- [93:10]
Jamie
Jamie, if you think there isn't already, as we speak, a place on the Internet where you can buy chainmail socks, then you and I are on very different Internets.
- [93:16]
Jennifer Prokopf
Chainmail socks, chainmail pants.
- [93:19]
Jamie
Tell me you haven't seen some ren faire entrepreneur out there.
- [93:21]
Malik
Okay, hold on. The ren faire scene and the TTRPG scene are different?
- [93:26]
Pamela Sanderson
Uh huh.
- [93:26]
Malik
Have you seriously never played dd?
- [93:28]
Jamie
I made a half a character sheet five years ago. It was like doing taxes, but with elf magic, which somehow made it less fun.
- [93:35]
Malik
There are all kinds of tools on the Internet now.
- [93:37]
Jamie
That whole scene really feels like to me. No offense, nerds out of college finding a way to keep getting homework.
- [93:43]
Malik
Says the guy studying for a living.
- [93:46]
Pamela Sanderson
Whoa.
- [93:46]
Jamie
It is not for a living if you don't make any money doing it. In fact, it's the opposite of doing something for a living. I am waiting tables and tending bars so I'll have the money to spend on a PhD. No sorcery to speak of, unless you count the power of words and a cold brew.
- [94:00]
Malik
Coffee, naturally.
- [94:02]
Jamie
Potion of shake a lot and then poop. Weird.
- [94:04]
Malik
Plus one to intelligence, minus one to constitution.
- [94:07]
Jamie
Minus one. Have you had coffee before?
- [94:09]
Malik
What were we talking about?
- [94:11]
Jamie
Leg armor.
- [94:12]
Malik
Okay, yeah, probably that exists. And if it didn't before, it could now, given the massive increase of biting.
- [94:18]
Pamela Sanderson
Right.
- [94:18]
Jamie
And you get, I don't know, welder's gloves in case you need to use your hands. And then you cone and kennel your dog, specifically in the bathroom door firmly shut, and you wait and you hope. And in the meantime, yeah, it's very gross. But you pee into a makeshift bedpan if you need to. Every month for One night every month. Because this is Pepper, your dog, who you love.
- [94:37]
Malik
It's Pepper.
- [94:38]
Jamie
And if that's what it takes to keep him in your life, you do it one night at a time. And you. I can't stress this enough, enough. You label your pee pans so clearly.
- [94:47]
Malik
So since I'm the only one of us that has a Reddit account, am I going to have to type all of this out?
- [94:52]
Jamie
Maybe just link them to this episode? They don't have any responses yet. They might appreciate it.
- [94:57]
Malik
Even the amount of verbal slapstick that.
- [94:59]
Pamela Sanderson
It took us to get here, it.
- [95:01]
Jamie
Could make them feel like someone's at least along for the ride. I feel like that's the main thing we can do right now. It's part of what makes this slog worth it. The way we can all reach to each other and even in the smallest ways remind each other that for every stupid, sad, weird, ridiculous thing that happens to us, someone out there is dealing with some other situation. Just as befuckened.
- [95:22]
Malik
You're saying no one is alone.
- [95:24]
Jamie
Everyone's alone. It's one of the many things that we have in common.
- [95:28]
Malik
I think that's as good as any place to leave off.
- [95:31]
Jamie
Yeah, this is Malik.
- [95:34]
Malik
Oh, and hi, Jamie.
- [95:36]
Jamie
Signing out. We know things are getting weirder every but we hope you're doing okay and we wish you all a better tomorrow.
- [95:43]
Pamela Sanderson
Even when it's ashes, there'll be part of me that wishes we could stay.
- [95:50]
Jamie
Jamie and Malik are played by Hilary Williams and Michael Turrentine.
- [95:54]
Jennifer Prokopf
This episode was written by Jessica Best.
- [95:57]
Jamie
Directed and edited by Jeffrey Nils Garden.
- [96:00]
Jennifer Prokopf
Our show art is by Carly Fairbanks.
- [96:02]
Jamie
And our bangin theme song is Finally Falling in Love at the End of the World by Olivia and the Lovers.
- [96:08]
Jennifer Prokopf
World Gone Wrong is produced and created by Jeffrey Nils Gardner and Eleanor Hyde.
- [96:19]
Jamie
This is a production of Audacious Machine Creative. It.